Very RUDE and Ignorant Fans!

I go to Cornell Hockey because I love the sport and enjoy to watch the game! BUT, I believe that it is rude and Ignorant for Post graduates to STAND-UP in front of older Fans, so that they can support their team, BUT, what about the older fans behind them, who can't see the action in front of them. After the post grad. students were asked very nicely and politely to sit down, they continued to stand up, even AFTER Security told them to sit down. This occured in Sect. G which I was told was a "Town" section, namely, a seated section. You would think post graduates would know better and understand the word RESPECT! Thankyou, Skip.

Section G is usually a split section: half townie, half student. It used to work that they split it diagonally so that there were no students in front of seated spectators. I believe that the Grad students being in that section is a new development. If Athletics decided to sit them in from of seated ticket holders then that was one of the more stupid ideas they've ever had.

I wouldn't blame the students themselves, they bought tickets believing that they could stand. Athletics seems to have dropped the ball mightily though.

Skip,

I was one of the grad students standing in section G. We were pretty upset about the whole issue too. We really want to stand with the other students and have the hockey experience we thought we were paying for. We also understand that you have expectations for your hockey experience.

My only problem with your complaint is that you assume that you are in the right and we are wrong or rude in someway. Why is it obvious that we should sit and not that you should stand? Students standing in Lynah is a tradition as old as the rink, if not as old as the entire Cornell hockey program. Excuse me for saying, but you are the ignorant one in this episode because you never thought for a second that we bought student tickets, not townie tickets. I still believe we are perfectly in the right to stand. Its the fault of the ticket office, not ours nor yours.

We hope to get this all sorted out with the ticket office on Monday. I'm confident that some arrangement can be made so everyone gets the hockey experience that they paid for.

Tony

scannon
I wouldn't blame the students themselves, they bought tickets believing that they could stand. Athletics seems to have dropped the ball mightily though.

Except they were told that they had to sit. The appropriate response is to sit and then discuss it with CU to see if something couldn't be worked out. To continue to stand is rude.

If you want to stand, move over to F. You can have half the section to yourself.

fattony
Students standing in Lynah is a tradition as old as the rink, if not as old as the entire Cornell hockey program.

Sorry, but this is simply a false statement. I don't know when the "standing" business started, but it was at least after the 1965-6 season. Students were as supportive of Cornell hockey--and we showed up more than an hour before the game started--sitting as they are today standing.

Al DeFlorio

fattony
Students standing in Lynah is a tradition as old as the rink, if not as old as the entire Cornell hockey program.

Sorry, but this is simply a false statement. I don't know when the "standing" business started, but it was at least after the 1965-6 season. Students were as supportive of Cornell hockey--and we showed up more than an hour before the game started--sitting as they are today standing.

It's Beeeej's fault, actually. He can explain.

I had season tickets in section G in '04-05 and to my knowledge, that season the entire section was composed of students. While we were allowed to stand during games, the ushers did inform us that G is supposed to be seated section. So, technically you are supposed to sit in G.

its one thing to stand in the student sections where it is tradition.. quite another to stand the entire game in other sections. would you expect 40-50-60-70 yr old people enjoy standing like 20+ students?

do you go and stand during movies so others cant see?

on the flip side there are times in the game where support of the team might include standing and people complain about that as well. I dont think the energy in the bldg is changed by a handful standing in section g..

Students standing in Lynah started sometime in the late 80's / early '90s.

We didn't do it when I was in school nor in the couple of tournaments I attended in the 80's after graduation. When I went to Lake Placid for the tourney in the late 90's they were doing it.

fattony
My only problem with your complaint is that you assume that you are in the right and we are wrong or rude in someway. Why is it obvious that we should sit and not that you should stand? Students standing in Lynah is a tradition as old as the rink, if not as old as the entire Cornell hockey program. Excuse me for saying, but you are the ignorant one in this episode because you never thought for a second that we bought student tickets, not townie tickets. I still believe we are perfectly in the right to stand.

I don't know that "ignorant" is the optimal choice of words to describe either party. But whatever derogatory term you choose, it is just wrong to stand up and prevent Skip from seeing the game. After all, you can see the game sitting or standing. If you stand, Skip cannot. How can you consider that the right thing to do? Cornell needs to spend more time teaching respect to their students. Reading the banter on this forum shows me that many are spoiled brats who have been led to believe that their wishes supersede in all cases. That's not how the world operates. Yes, you're "special"; but only to yourself. This "hooray for me & the hell with you" mentality turns my stomach!!

fattony
Its the fault of the ticket office, not ours nor yours.

Yes, the blame is established. Let's hope they find a corrective action that satisfies all parties.

Can't it be the fault of the ticket office for creating the situation, and the fault of the students for not handling it well?

And the fault of older townies for not inventing the hovercars we were promised by the year 2000, which they would then be able to sit in and keep at an altitude suitable for looking over the students' heads?

IMHO.

Skipper,

I have been sitting in Section G for the past 4 years and straddle the divide between townies and students. Until you showed up, the same group of students have been standing without any issues from the people behind them. You have no right to yell at the students in the manner that you did and then run to an usher like a petulant child. If you want people to learn respect, you should start by setting the example and not showing your temper because you suddenly decided to show up to a hockey game, otherwise you would have known that students have been standing in G.

Al DeFlorio

fattony
Students standing in Lynah is a tradition as old as the rink, if not as old as the entire Cornell hockey program.

Sorry, but this is simply a false statement. I don't know when the "standing" business started, but it was at least after the 1965-6 season. Students were as supportive of Cornell hockey--and we showed up more than an hour before the game started--sitting as they are today standing.

When I arrived on the scene in '90-91, I'm fairly certain that the "tradition" was to stand until Cornell scored its first goal. Unfortunately, things being what they were in 91, 92, 93, we got shut out a number of times at home - hence, standing the whole game. The tradition just sort of naturally morphed into standing for the whole game, regardless of the score.

Haven't you people ever heard the phrase, "Down in front?" There is a reason that Lynah Rink has SEATS. People sit when they watch sporting events. Just because some of us would rather stand up to watch a Cornell hockey game does not mean we have a constitutional right to do so.

If you have season tickets in Section G and your desire to stand throughout the game is interfering with the ability of the fans behind you to watch the game, why don't you ask the Athletic Department to switch your seats to Section F [which did not sell out] where you can enjoy the best seats [standing room] in the rink? On the corner, your view is virtually unobstructed. Friday night I saw the usher inviting fans move to section D or F during the second period so that they could stand in peace. Since student season tickets did not sell out, I would guess the Athletic Department would be willing to permanently accommodate Section G standers so that everyone can watch the game in the manner that they prefer.

I was also one of the standing grads. We bought our tickets assuming that we would be allowed to stand as we had in the past. Gene in the athletics dept was told to sell the unsold G tickets to townies, putting sitters behind standers and creating this problem. Believe me, I would much rather be in Section B like the last few years than in *yawn, boring* section G. We proposed moving the standers to the aisle side of G and sitters toward the middle so that we wouldn't be blocking anybody but they didn't do it. It looks like the athletics department is going to let us switch into unsold undergrad seats on section E which will make everybody a lot happier. Having heard the things that Skip shouted at the grads near him, I can tell you that he is just as "rude and ignorant" as anybody blocking someone else's view!

"Yawn, boring" is how you describe fans who chooose not to stand up throughout a hockey game? Just because people who have invested in season tickets choose not to stand up during a hockey game does not mean they are less committed than other fans. Students who stand up and chant are not "better" fans than the rest of us. There are a lot of people who attend hockey games who have been doing so since before the current crop of undergraduates were born, and before it was considered "cool" to stand up through out a game. Heck, some of those fans would probably love to stand up throughout a game but they may not be physically able to do so. Yoo hoo -- we are in the rink for the same reason. Isn't our ultimate goal to support Cornell hockey? Why is everyone bitching at each other rather than being a little more accepting aobut the different ways we are able to show support for our team.

jtwcornell91

Al DeFlorio

fattony
Students standing in Lynah is a tradition as old as the rink, if not as old as the entire Cornell hockey program.

Sorry, but this is simply a false statement. I don't know when the "standing" business started, but it was at least after the 1965-6 season. Students were as supportive of Cornell hockey--and we showed up more than an hour before the game started--sitting as they are today standing.

It's Beeeej's fault, actually. He can explain.

This, I've gotta hear.

Swap. Stand in the back, sit in the front.

First. Who cares when standing become the tradition. It is irrelevant.

Second. Everything that Redice said regarding Cornell students reflects what is wrong with this town. Why is it always a town / gown issue? Get over it.

Especially because the students in question are not undergraduates and do not fall in your category of special privileged little brats.

Third. I was not able to find an actual document outlining the rules of conduct for spectators, but I would suspect that there is very little that can be legally done to prevent the offending students from standing.

Translated to mean that it is going to be a LONG season for everyone if the offending students tickets are not changed.

Trotsky
Swap. Stand in the back, sit in the front.

I think that is a bad idea. I know a lot of townies who specifically have seats in the top three rows because they have trouble with the stairs. Others with upper row seats have them because we like to see the play flow, which you cannot do as well from lower seats.

I would wager that the back of the ticket says something to the effect of that athletics can throw out anyone for not following as directed (I have never, and probably will never read the back of a ticket). so if they were told to sit, and they didn't, boot them.

The only relevant part on the back of the ticket might be "disruptive or disorderly conduct," which I guess could be cited if someone refuses to sit.

I suggest talking to Gene Nighman about this; I see no reason why this can't be resolved reasonably.

ebilmes
I see no reason why this can't be resolved reasonably.

some people are stubborn, that could be a problem.

Personally, if I was told that my upper row seats in G were being switched to lower rows, I would refuse it. when you are a townie, and you buy a season ticket, you expect to do what the vast majority of people who watch sporting events in this country do (sitting). When I got tickets this year nothing was said about there being students who might be standing in front of me.

it'll get figured out, but I think the students are the ones who are going to either be relocated, or forced to sit down.

Beeeej

jtwcornell91

Al DeFlorio

fattony
Students standing in Lynah is a tradition as old as the rink, if not as old as the entire Cornell hockey program.

Sorry, but this is simply a false statement. I don't know when the "standing" business started, but it was at least after the 1965-6 season. Students were as supportive of Cornell hockey--and we showed up more than an hour before the game started--sitting as they are today standing.

It's Beeeej's fault, actually. He can explain.

This, I've gotta hear.

[elf.elynah.com]

Jeffrey "Beeeej" Anbinder
The other half, and what sticks in my mind more thoroughly, is the letter I wrote to the Daily Sun as one of the skating Bears at the time in 1992. I was trying to outline some of the major traditions for newer Faithful, and they altered something I'd written along the lines of "stand until Cornell has scored their first goal" to "stand until Cornell has scored three goals."

Needless to say they made that change without my permission, knowing that since I'd asked to have it published "anonymously" as the Bear, I would have no way of disputing their version. I no longer spend much time dwelling on how asinine and unprofessional that was, but it's interesting to think that my letter and the Sun's idiocy contributed to a tradition that's still causing rifts.

Note that this appears in a thread from four years ago about disputes over standing vs sitting in ... Section G. Plus ça change...

dag14
"Yawn, boring" is how you describe fans who chooose not to stand up throughout a hockey game? Just because people who have invested in season tickets choose not to stand up during a hockey game does not mean they are less committed than other fans....

Oh come on. This is just taking offense for no reason. Yes, the townie fans in G are probably boring from the student perspective. The townies there could be the most dedicated and knowledgeable fans in the rink and they would still be boring to someone who bought tickets wanting to have the full Lynah Rink student experience. But it's OK - there are a lot worse things in life than to be considered boring by a bunch of kids. (And of course, boring doesn't necessarily mean wrong in this instance.)

Grapefruit_is_great

Especially because the students in question are not undergraduates and do not fall in your category of special privileged little brats.

Funny...I know many graduate students to be special privileged little brats. A bachelor's degree doesn't automatically grant you maturity, not does it automatically earn you respect from your peers or your elders, or even those horrible little undergraduates beneath your pedestal.

Speaking of "special" and "brats", I also enjoy the folks who create accounts on this forum just to bitch and moan about the man getting them down, and never to discuss hockey or the team itself.

We've had this same sitting/standing argument/discussion on this board numerous times in the past, although it's more often in reference to road games. The right thing to do is to work to find a solution that accomodates both sides to the greatest extent possible. Yes, it's wrong for student's to claim that they have some sort of constitutional right to stand and refuse to budge or accommodate. It's also wrong for the sitters to to take an unbending attitude of "this is my seat and I'm going to sit right here" and then toss comments about being rude. Courtesy runs both ways and it'll be a much more enjoyable hockey season if something can be worked out early on.

KeithK
It's also wrong for the sitters to to take an unbending attitude of "this is my seat and I'm going to sit right here" and then toss comments about being rude.

Huh? It isn't clear to me why it's "wrong" for a sitter to feel this way. If someone buys a seat, has someone standing in front of him so he can't see the game, why shouldn't he think that's rude and speak accordingly? If the ticket office screwed this up in allocating seats to students and non-students, then the person standing should sit, allow the person behind him to watch the game that he's paid to see, and deal with the ticket office later to get it resolved. What's the sitter supposed to do? Quietly stare at the standing person's behind for two-plus hours and then go home?

jtwcornell91

Beeeej

jtwcornell91

Al DeFlorio

fattony
Students standing in Lynah is a tradition as old as the rink, if not as old as the entire Cornell hockey program.

Sorry, but this is simply a false statement. I don't know when the "standing" business started, but it was at least after the 1965-6 season. Students were as supportive of Cornell hockey--and we showed up more than an hour before the game started--sitting as they are today standing.

It's Beeeej's fault, actually. He can explain.

This, I've gotta hear.

[elf.elynah.com]

Jeffrey "Beeeej" Anbinder
The other half, and what sticks in my mind more thoroughly, is the letter I wrote to the Daily Sun as one of the skating Bears at the time in 1992. I was trying to outline some of the major traditions for newer Faithful, and they altered something I'd written along the lines of "stand until Cornell has scored their first goal" to "stand until Cornell has scored three goals."

Needless to say they made that change without my permission, knowing that since I'd asked to have it published "anonymously" as the Bear, I would have no way of disputing their version. I no longer spend much time dwelling on how asinine and unprofessional that was, but it's interesting to think that my letter and the Sun's idiocy contributed to a tradition that's still causing rifts.

Note that this appears in a thread from four years ago about disputes over standing vs sitting in ... Section G. Plus ça change...

Oh, yeah! Thanks. Well, they do say that the memory is the second thing to go as you age.

from another standing section G grad student:

The bottom line is, the grad students standing in the front 10 or so rows of G bought their tickets in a student section. We expect to stand, like all the other student sections. The upper rows in G were made available to the public, and thus I agree they are correct to expect to sit, like all the other public sections.

I think we are all in agreement that the ticket office/athletic department is at fault. The only reason we were taking a stand (um, pun intended, I guess) is because we were repeatedly told by the people behind us that we were not in a student section because they had bought public season tickets. Well, I 'did my time in the line' and what I can tell you is that those tickets in the rows behind us in G were reserved for grad students. They had a big piece of poster board with all the seats available for grad students, and those seats included G from bottom to top in the half nearest F. However, the grad student tickets did not sell out, and that's the reason those seats were made available to the public.

I do think it's offensive to refer to me as ignorant when I bought a ticket in what was originally designated as a student section and tell me I was not in a student section.

Now, we are anxiously waiting to resolve this issue Monday. We will talk to the ticket office and alert them of the problem. We have been told that undergrad seats in E also did not sell out, and if that's the case we will happily trade in our G tickets for seats in E. Problem solved. If we cannot get seats in E, then we will tell the ticket office that they need to make a decision: either students in G can stand and the public seats have to accept that (and the ushers will have to be made aware of this decision) OR we will be told that we are not allowed to stand in G and we will have to accept that. If the standing-prohibited option is picked, then I will request that I be allowed to turn in my season tickets and get a refund, since I am not getting the hockey experience I expected when I purchased my student season tickets. If the standing-allowed option is picked, I think the public seat holders should also request a full refund because they are being forced to stand or not see the rink, which is not the hockey experience they paid for.

perdon't
If the standing-prohibited option is picked, then I will request that I be allowed to turn in my season tickets and get a refund, since I am not getting the hockey experience I expected when I purchased my student season tickets. If the standing-allowed option is picked, I think the public seat holders should also request a full refund because they are being forced to stand or not see the rink, which is not the hockey experience they paid for.

Oh how the fandom has fallen. The fact that you would demand a refund and give up season tickets shows that you care very little about Cornell hockey.

I, personally, gained from the fact that G did not sell out as my alumna sister and I were able to get tickets this year after she had been on the list for three years. Now, the two of us would rather stand as recent alumni, but we sit because people behind us sit. And we would NOT give up our season tickets just for something as petty as standing.

perdon't
d that we are not allowed to stand in G and we will have to accept that. If the standing-prohibited option is picked, then I will request that I be allowed to turn in my season tickets and get a refund, since I am not getting the hockey experience I expected when I purchased my student season tickets. If the standing-allowed option is picked, I think the public seat holders should also request a full refund because they are being forced to stand or not see the rink, which is not the hockey experience they paid for.

Really? Cornell hockey just isn't worth watching if you can't stand up? I assume you think that doing your time in "the line" makes you a dedicated fan too?

The Cornell team was the one in the white and red jerseys in case you were wondering about that during the game.

I find it unsettling that those standing can't be a little more considerate of the folks behind them. All this talk of expectations and rights and who's at fault. What about the responsibilities we have to our fellow citizens? Remember common courtesy? We're very quick to place our self-interests above all else and ignore what's fair...and "right". I wonder how a stander would view it (no pun) if it were their parent, sibling, friend, etc., whose view was impeded. What opinion would you hold if YOU were seated?? Would you be so quick to accept the point of view that the desire to stand comes ahead of that which you purchased?

As has been said earlier, the right thing to do would have been to exercise respect and courtesy to those behind you and discuss the issue later with Gene. After all, those seated were not party to your transaction with Cornell.

Bottom line: those who wouldn't sit had the opportunity to make the world "a better place" by spreading goodwill, to live impeccably. Instead, some placed self-interest ahead of that. A blown opportunity....

While no details have been shared, you tend to get back the respect you show. While I am among those who believe the students probably should have just sat, if Skip is who people seem to believe he is, it sounds like rather than treating the students as reasonable adults and trying to calmly work out an understanding, rather than turning to ugly and insulting language.

I was not there, I do not know what happens, but I have seen plenty of times in the public where - despite the fact that you catch more flies with honey - someone who is upset decides the best approach is to be sarcastic and insulting, and the situation always degrades promptly from there. Making the other party defensive and offended is just asking for continued troubles.

You can be right, and yet act wrongly, at the same time. From the little information we have on here, that sounds like a likely situation.

I hope that common sense resolves this issue. When I purchased my season tickets, which by the way, I tried to obtain in sections L to O. I was told by the ticket office that basically my only choice was in section G! I asked if this was a seated town section or a student standing section, and I was told by Ian in the ticket office that it is a "townie"section, he even took me out there to my seat, which was very nice.The point is, I was told by the ticket office that this is a "seated" section. In Ref. to Tom Tone, I addressed the issue to them about sitting down in a very nice manner, that myself and the people around me could NOT see the action around the goal in front of us, we Missed the first 2 goals of the game! I allowed security to resolve this, NOT arguing! Let's ALL get along and support the team, that's what we're there for! I didn't just "show up for the game", I've been going for at least a dozen years or more, normally always sitting in or around the blue lines.

DeltaOne81
I was not there, I do not know what happens, but I have seen plenty of times in the public where - despite the fact that you catch more flies with honey - someone who is upset decides the best approach is to be sarcastic and insulting, and the situation always degrades promptly from there. Making the other party defensive and offended is just asking for continued troubles.

You can be right, and yet act wrongly, at the same time. From the little information we have on here, that sounds like a likely situation.

Sounds like that applies here as well.

I wouldnt exactly call section O a seated section either.. between visitors like Colgate who like to stand and the bands that obstruct views..
if people are going to complain about a cornell fan standing what will they be doing when the clarkson tuba sits in front of them or the drum sets takes up your seats..

Skip, its unfortunate that the ticket office would tell you that. G has traditionally been a student section. As student tickets have not been selling out, the remainders have gone to townies.

I suppose they are not strictly 'lying' by saying its a 'townie section', because it is... now... partially. But its a lie of omission at best.

To give the benefit of the doubt, Ian may have simply been unaware, but if that's the case he should not have been talking without the full information.


Hopefully this can be resolved - if there indeed seats open in E & F - by moving those who wish to stand to those locations.


Seems the ticket office have reaped what they've sewn, by telling different groups what they knew each wanted to hear. Perhaps they've been inspired by the election year.

When there are only Cornell fans on eLynah and we run out of useful things to discuss, Cornell fan turns against Cornell fan over tangential things such as whether it's okay to stand in a seating section at Lynah. Rich S serves a useful function by uniting Cornell fans in a common goal, to wit making Rich's life miserable whenever he posts a logical comment (it has happened) and even more miserable when he posts of his more routine comments. Please come back, Rich, we miss you.

Kudos to the peacemakers who said it must all be the fault of the athletics department. They make a great punching bag. Plus, if the section really is meant to be a seated section, why didn't the dept. make that known? Lord knows, they warn you about every other kind of behavior in Lynah.

Btw, as I read this, I can't help but remember the ECAC championships in 2005. I was in the Cornell student section, and we stood. But at some point (I forget when, but I would guess near the beginning of the game), a handicapped man sat in the handicap-accessible spot at the top of our column of seats. The students at the top rows politely sat so that this man could see the game, and they also told the students in front of them. Those students sat and told the guys in front of them, and within a couple of minutes we were all sitting; I don't recall anyone making a big stink of it. We all took it a priori that even though it's more fun to stand, it's also important not to be dickishly obstinate about it.

For his part, the man was very grateful and let us know that we could stand for the last two minutes. We were up 3-1 by then, so he was nice enough to let us whippersnappers have a couple minutes of gleeful, all-out, standing ovation to see the game out. And I know that all my friends and I were very grateful to him for that.

I guess this anecdote goes to show two things. First, if people are nice about it, there's no reason you can't come up with compromise. And secondly, I am now old enough to spout "when I was your age" memories.

DeltaOne81
... despite the fact that you catch more flies with honey...

<drift>
[xkcd.com]
</drift>

Al DeFlorio

KeithK
It's also wrong for the sitters to to take an unbending attitude of "this is my seat and I'm going to sit right here" and then toss comments about being rude.

Huh? It isn't clear to me why it's "wrong" for a sitter to feel this way. If someone buys a seat, has someone standing in front of him so he can't see the game, why shouldn't he think that's rude and speak accordingly? If the ticket office screwed this up in allocating seats to students and non-students, then the person standing should sit, allow the person behind him to watch the game that he's paid to see, and deal with the ticket office later to get it resolved. What's the sitter supposed to do? Quietly stare at the standing person's behind for two-plus hours and then go home?

Al, to be clear I don't think it's unreasonable to want to sit and watch the game. It is, however, Lynah rink where it has been accepted practice for a long tiem and section G is or has been a student section. The right response is to try to work something out with the folks around you so everyone can enjoy the game. Approach it with a spirit of compromise rather than "this is my seat and you must adjust to my desires".

I haven't had to have this fight at Lynah (I was always in B when I was there) but have at road games where townies/sitters sometimes refuse to shift even a couple seats to let students/standers congregate and stand.

sah67

perdon't
d that we are not allowed to stand in G and we will have to accept that. If the standing-prohibited option is picked, then I will request that I be allowed to turn in my season tickets and get a refund, since I am not getting the hockey experience I expected when I purchased my student season tickets. If the standing-allowed option is picked, I think the public seat holders should also request a full refund because they are being forced to stand or not see the rink, which is not the hockey experience they paid for.

Really? Cornell hockey just isn't worth watching if you can't stand up? I assume you think that doing your time in "the line" makes you a dedicated fan too?

I think you're being a little quick to judge. Keep in mind that not all of us were big hockey fans before coming to Cornell. I first started to go to ganes simply for the "hockey experience" that I'd heard so much about. That's what first roped me in. If not for that I wouldn't have turned into the kind of idiot who is still posting on hockey forums ten years after graduating.

Yes, many of the longtime fans on here would want to continue to go to games to watch/support Cornell hockey even if the rink staff forced us to sit on our hands utterly silent. But it takes time (and/or pre-existing love of hockey) to develop that kind of interest.

KeithK
ten years after graduating.

That was #2, right?

Kyle Rose

KeithK
ten years after graduating.

That was #2, right?

#3 actually. I got the free M.S. in '96.

So, I was asked if I was such a weak fan that I would rather get a refund than stay and sit through games. Hmmmm, I'm not going to answer that. Let me turn it around on you.

I talked to the ticket office. They gave us 2 choices. There are plenty of seats left in E for all of us standers to stand with the undergrads and we can easily exchange our seats for the E ones. But, we were told that G is a student section and we would be allowed to stand in G if we'd prefer to keep our seats there.

Now, the un-ignorant thing to do would be to peacefully take the seats in E. Hell, they're better seats, not behind the safety net, and surrounded by fans who want to stand and yell and cheer with us. We're almost definitely changing our seats.

But since I've already been called ignorant, there's this devious little part of me that wants to keep my group in G and stand through EVERY SINGLE GAME. Oh, and I wouldn't even be considering this if it weren't for the way we were treated by the sitters on Friday.

So back to your question, oh champions of 'fair' sitting: if the only tickets left for the public are in G (not sure if that's the case), is it worth getting a refund on your season tickets if you have to choose between standing the whole game or not being able to see the rink?

let's see who the true fans are now.

perdon't
So back to your question, oh champions of 'fair' sitting: if the only tickets left for the public are in G (not sure if that's the case), is it worth getting a refund on your season tickets if you have to choose between standing the whole game or not being able to see the rink?

let's see who the true fans are now.

So you're equating "my experience is diminished by being told to sit" with "my experience is non-existant because the people in front of me are standing"? I just want to make sure I follow your argument.

worst. fan. ever.

PLease, PLease Let me add a comment. I must tell you that I have been to so many sporting events... I can not begin to count them.. but, I will try.
Let's see... T-Ball, Highschool Hockey, Wresteling, College Hockey, UHL, ECHL, AHL, NHL, College football, NFL, MLB and thier farm team games... Out of all of them, Cornell BIG RED has THE BEST FANS... The students are so full of life, chanting and having a good time getting into the game. That is part of College life for a student. Most of us can say we have been there and done that. However, the POST GRAD fans need to realize that they are in fact ....POST GRADS... THIS MEANS YOU ARE NO LONGER A STUDENT. This also means that the Post Grad people in section G hold tickets in a SITTING SECTION. This means you need to sit. If you want to stand with the other students ... go back to school and go stand in the STUDENT section. It really does not matter how many degree letters a person has after their name. This does not give them the right to be rude and disrespectful. No where else in my sporting experience have I ever seen such a rude group of people. No where else does this happen. This is how it works people... THE TEAM SCORES!!!!!! STAND, SCREAM, YELL, JUMP UP AND DOWN, HI 5, SCREAM AGAIN, THEN SIT BACK DOWN... IT IS THAT SIMPLE ! Where have your manners gone, did you ever hear of common courtesy? Would you stand through an entire movie? would you stand in front of others at your childs school play or dance recitel? Of course not.. Then why is it ok to be in the way of others here. We have all paid our money and we all expect the same thing. To SEE a good game. That does not happen when others stand in front of you and all you see is their brand of Jeans. Thank you ... from a back row spectator.

perdon't
So, I was asked if I was such a weak fan that I would rather get a refund than stay and sit through games. Hmmmm, I'm not going to answer that. Let me turn it around on you.

I talked to the ticket office. They gave us 2 choices. There are plenty of seats left in E for all of us standers to stand with the undergrads and we can easily exchange our seats for the E ones. But, we were told that G is a student section and we would be allowed to stand in G if we'd prefer to keep our seats there.

Now, the un-ignorant thing to do would be to peacefully take the seats in E. Hell, they're better seats, not behind the safety net, and surrounded by fans who want to stand and yell and cheer with us. We're almost definitely changing our seats.

But since I've already been called ignorant, there's this devious little part of me that wants to keep my group in G and stand through EVERY SINGLE GAME. Oh, and I wouldn't even be considering this if it weren't for the way we were treated by the sitters on Friday.

So back to your question, oh champions of 'fair' sitting: if the only tickets left for the public are in G (not sure if that's the case), is it worth getting a refund on your season tickets if you have to choose between standing the whole game or not being able to see the rink?

let's see who the true fans are now.

Ignorant might have been the wrong adjective to describe you. After reading that post I would choose one that starts with an s.

Now I hate to rain on your day, but I have a feeling that if push comes to shove (and by the sound of things, it might) athletics will either force you to sit down or move your seats. I doubt they will risk pissing off a whole bunch of townies, potentially making them not renew there tickets next year. Most students buy season tickets for 2-4 years, maybe 6 if they go to grad school, townies buy tickets for decades. I highly doubt that Athletics/ticket office will do anything but help the townies.

All that being said, there is no reason to treat anyone inappropriately.

perdon't

let's see who the true fans are now.

Yup...still not you.

And "un-ignorant"? Does Cornell offer an intro English class for grad students these days?

Juzo
However, the POST GRAD fans need to realize that they are in fact ....POST GRADS... THIS MEANS YOU ARE NO LONGER A STUDENT. This also means that the Post Grad people in section G hold tickets in a SITTING SECTION. This means you need to sit. If you want to stand with the other students ... go back to school and go stand in the STUDENT section.

I think when they say "post-grad" they're referring to the fact that they're in grad school... so they're still students.

perdon't
But since I've already been called ignorant, there's this devious little part of me that wants to keep my group in G and stand through EVERY SINGLE GAME. Oh, and I wouldn't even be considering this if it weren't for the way we were treated by the sitters on Friday.

Now that's just being spiteful. I don't blame you for it - I certainly indulge that little spiteful part of me from time to time. But you know that doing it would be wrong so hopefully you will do the right thing and just switch seats as offered.

People on both sides need to remember that everyone involved is a Cornell hockey fan and wants to go to Lynah and enjoy the games. They aren't your enemy even if they've done something to piss you off. Again, be reasonable and be willing to compromise when appropriate.

You want to know spite?? I'm dropping out of Cornell over this whole issue!!

How do you like THEM apples??

Juzo
However, the POST GRAD fans need to realize that they are in fact ....POST GRADS... THIS MEANS YOU ARE NO LONGER A STUDENT.

Not relevnt. There's nothing magical about being a student that makes you able to chant and cheer at hockey fans. Yes, it's more often done by students but there are plenty of alums and non-students who particpate in such things.

Juzo
This also means that the Post Grad people in section G hold tickets in a SITTING SECTION. This means you need to sit. If you want to stand with the other students ... go back to school and go stand in the STUDENT section.

Whether section G is a sitting section or a standing section is in dispute. Some folks understood that it would be a standing section when they bought tickets. Others assumed that it would be sitting. I am pretty sure the ticket doesn't indicate which it is.

As for going back to school, see my first comment.

Juzo
This is how it works people... THE TEAM SCORES!!!!!! STAND, SCREAM, YELL, JUMP UP AND DOWN, HI 5, SCREAM AGAIN, THEN SIT BACK DOWN... IT IS THAT SIMPLE !

Personally I find that watching hockey is much more enjoyable when I'm standing. It's easier to shift position to follow the play that way, especially when the puck goes into one of the near corners. I do this at Cornell agmes and I do this when I can at other college hockey games (managed to stand a lot in Denver this year) and at pro games as well. "SIT DOWN...IT IS THAT SIMPLE" is garbage. Now when I'm in the minority, which my preference certainly places me at most non-Cornell events, I have to find ways to do what I want that don't impact the majority. The same can be said here (althoguh I don't know the sit/stand breakdown in the section).

fattony
You want to know spite?? I'm dropping out of Cornell over this whole issue!!

How do you like THEM apples??

Good riddance?

That's an interesting update Perdon't. Maybe I will keep my tickets in G afterall - I actually prefer the view from that end. A townie that works in the same building as I do came up to me and said that she and her husband love the students in G...and doesn't think that the majority of folks in G want the students out. Sounds like it might just be that one cranky guy – Skipper?.

that said: no one wants their view seriously obstructed. And frankly, I don't think any of us students actually want to get in someone's way. But that man in the back was WAY out of line. Even the usher told him so. If he had come down and talked to us nicely, it would be a different story. And, in the end, when the ushers asked us to sit or move, we did. Nobody was rude or disrespectful there.

When I tried to actually talk to the man in the back when he was so agitated, I told him that I thought we could find a solution, I asked him to talk to me about what his problem was. When it was my turn, I explained how we’ve stood in G for several seasons, the fact that it is a student section, that this was the first time I’d heard that anyone was upset about it. But he didn't want to come up with a solution, he wanted to yell and complain and insult us – since we “don’t have a four-year degree” and thus “don’t know how to act at a hockey game”. The best was when he personally attacked my level of intelligence - I love that he complained that we were rude, especially as he was the one throwing insults and generally behaving like a child. It was quite comical, actually. but I digress – several points have been made about how out of line this guy was and how badly he handled himself…

As for now, I’d love to stay in G and stay standing with other fellow grad student fans. Firstly, because I just like G. Secondly, it will show the man in the back that you can’t just walk into Lynah with your newly purchased season ticket, pitch a fit, and generally have it your way. (frankly, I can’t see how his view is really all that obstructed as he is in the very, very back row and we are all pretty close to the glass) But if there is a real problem with people not being able to see– not just with the angry man in the back – then we’ll sit or move, which is exactly what we did on Friday when asked politely by the usher. (Contrary to earlier posts, the students all left or sat when asked to.) There seems to be a lot of room in G, maybe us standers can move to one side of G (toward the corner) and the sitters can move to the other. I understand the temptation to stand just to spite the man in the back, especially after receiving his abuse last Friday, but what I really want is for us to keep the spirit alive in G. It was a pretty happy place (as far as I could tell) before Mr. Skipper or (whoever that man is) made such a fuss. And all b/c he probably couldn’t see one foot more of the ice. So, I say, let’s try to work it out next game – if we can’t move around so that the sitters can see, then we move. But if we can work it out, shuffle ourselves, move closer to the ice or the aisle, or whatever, then maybe we’re all set. And if the man in the back leaves b/c standing is allowed in G – good riddance, indeed.

Coupla things. First, this isn't "majority rules." Some people cannot stand -- standing in front of them prevents them from seeing the game. Everybody can sit. It's asymmetrical.

Secondly, a section of standing fans cuts off the view of shorter fans in the back when they look along the "long" axis. It sucks not being able to see the corners. A section of sitting fans doesn't create the same problem, since there's a greater uniformity of height above the waist.

If somebody asks you to sit, ask them to swap. If they say no, sit down.

If they sold their seats back, they could probably buy game-by-game tickets in the student section where they WOULD be allowed to stand AND watch the game.

Just out of curiosity (this doesn't really impact the conversation/argument) is this the group of grad students that has brought the "poop is brown" papers for at least the past 2 season?

Like clockwork, every three years it seems:

2002: [elf.elynah.com]
2005: [elf.elynah.com]

And here we are in 2008. Only one person on this thread has made mention of it, but the solution developed this decade was to make Section G both standing AND sitting via a diagonal boundary. The tickets sold to grad students were on the "standing" side of that boundary, and the townie tickets sold were on the "sitting" side of that boundary. I remember at the beginning of one recent season, someone official-like (whether it was the rink staff or the ticket office or the ushers I don't know) placed sheets of paper on the seats before the doors opened to clearly mark which seats were "standing." After that, there was no problem for the rest of the season.

Here's an ASCII drawing of the boundary line (looking at Section G from the playing surface):

-----------------
|\		 |
| \		 |
|  \		 |
|   \	STAND	 |
|    \		 |
|     \		 |
|      \	 |
|       \ 	 |
|        \	 |
|  SIT    \	 |
| 	   \	 |
|           \	 |
| 	     \	 |
| 	      \	 |
|  	       \ |
------------------
      
	ICE

The line was drawn so the seats at the top of the sitting section had a clear line-of-sight to the corner of the playing surface (it seemed). This worked well, and I rarely heard any complaints after the first home weekend.

It's important to note that there were some students in the "sitting" side of the line, and they followed the guide after it was clearly defined. It seems this season, there has been some mixed communications given to each group. I fully admit that there were games when I wanted to stand, so I just moved over to the "standing" side of the line...one thing to remember is that in standing sections of the rink, the seat assignments are much more...fluid (shall we say) than the seated sections. OK, so you aren't on your number...just make do. Some games, like the Harvard game, are more difficult when tons of people are all showing up and jockeying for position.

Even if this elegant solution is cast to the wind, respect and compromise is definitely in order by the wanna-standers. As pointed out before...not everyone is physically able to stand. Please respect that.

Section G is like the Seinfeldian Black and White cookie of Lynah.

Look to the cookie, folks. We can survive together.

RichH

 ------------------
| \		 |
|  \		 |
|   \		 |
|    \	STAND	 |
|     \		 |
|      \		 |
|       \	          |
|        \ 	 |
|         \	 |
|  SIT     \	 |
|  	   \	 |
|            \	 |
| 	     \	 |
| 	      \	 |
|  	       \  |
 ------------------
      
	ICE 

I always thought that they did this so the townies sitting on the end of section H closest to G could see the left side of the ice in the end closest to them.

RichH

As pointed out before...not everyone is physically able to stand. Please respect that.

Yes, and on a related note, could we please dispense with the "townies up" chant near the end EVERY GAME? I can understand that certain game situations could inspire that chant. But, it has become an EVERY GAME thing. It's gotten old, folks! Save it for times when the team really needs a pick-me-up from the crowd.

As a consequence of that practice, my wife is NEVER able to watch the final few minutes of a Cornell Hockey game. Why? Because the mindless sheep who sit in front of us jump to their feet when yelled at by a group of 18-22 year-olds on the opposite side of the ice. We sit in Sec N. And yes, standing is a problem for my wife.

I'm sympathetic to the concerns of people who want or or need to sit. However, I'm also sympathetic to the concerns of those of us who like to stand but can't get seats where we really want---somewhere in A-B,D-F---because Athletics for some reason won't issue non-students season tickets that have gone unsold in those sections. Someone solve that problem, and it seems this issue goes away because the sitters can gladly have most of G.

Under the current circumstances, doing what Rich suggested is the best solution. Could someone in town please present this to Gene and get some kind of official blessing for it? There's absolutely no reason for this to be confrontational: there are enough seats for everyone in the section; the issue is simply placement.

However, if someone is too recalcitrant to move a few rows up or down to accommodate this solution, fuck 'em: let them watch someone's back the whole game. You have to give a little to get a little. In Lynah, section G *is* a student section by virtue of student ticket sales and, by tradition, the students get to stand. Deal with it. But deal with it *constructively*.

Kyle

redice
Yes, and on a related note, could we please dispense with the "townies up" chant near the end EVERY GAME? I can understand that certain game situations could inspire that chant. But, it has become an EVERY GAME thing. It's gotten old, folks! Save it for times when the team really needs a pick-me-up from the crowd.

Seriously.

Every game this season has called for it and last game it worked!I do it and I love it!

I agree. This has become a regular occurrence, and lost all meaning. There's really no point to asking the entire rink to stand at the end of the game if we're going to do it every single game (and we do - not just these last few games but the last few years as well). Can we retire that one? I'm a student in section A, and I wish we'd just let the older fans be - especially with all the idiots in section A who were breaking out their keys last game when we were up by one.

There were idiots in N and M also - I even commented to friend that's tempting the WOOFING God and bang 3-4 seconds later = tie game.

profudge
There were idiots in N and M also - I even commented to friend that's tempting the WOOFING God and bang 3-4 seconds later = tie game.

Ah...THAT'S what Schafer was so upset about. It was those fans who didn't adhere to the superstition rules!

Looks like the issue is "solved" for the remainder of the season:

Athletics Ticket Office
Dear Section G hockey season ticket holder,

Thank you for purchasing your Cornell Men's Ice Hockey season tickets and your continued support of the Big Red. With the increased sale of tickets in Section G to local fans (townies), it is necessary to prohibit standing in the section during play.

In a show of respect to local fans, the Athletic Department asks that you do not block their view of the game by standing in front of them. Note: fans with seats in row 14 may continue to stand. If you prefer to carry on the tradition of standing during games it is asked that you return your tickets to the ticket office and exchange them for seats in section E. These seats will be yours for the remainder of the season, including the playoff games.

Please note that this policy is effective immediately and will be enforced at Saturday's game vs. Colgate.

The Athletic Ticket Office is located in 103 Bartels Hall (just inside the front doors) and is open Monday-Friday from 10-5 p.m. Seat locations cannot be changed on game day.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

JDeafv
Looks like the issue is "solved" for the remainder of the season:

Athletics Ticket Office
Dear Section G hockey season ticket holder, ... If you prefer to carry on the tradition of standing during games it is asked that you return your tickets to the ticket office and exchange them for seats in section E. These seats will be yours for the remainder of the season, including the playoff games. ... Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

I suppose this is the silver lining to not selling out?

I am wondering, they didnt sell out, and have a waiting list of 1-200 people.. So these sections are not available to the general public?

Yeah, this is insanity: if those tickets were available to the general public, I would buy 4 tickets for all the remaining games right now. Cornell, do you really not want my money?

Kyle