Guest Editorial in Today's Sun

Lamenting the 'Criminalization of the Lynah Faithful'

Written by amerks127 and myself.

great article - I think that echoes the sentiment of a lot of us alums/students out there. I would've called for Andy's Noel's head...but that's just a personal thing. I think the guy does an awful job. It's amazing we've had the recent success across the board that we've had considering the handicaps he puts on our programs in comparison to some of the other Ivies.

Good article. I'll try to blog about it tonight.

But doesn't the Sun have some sort of ridiculous rule saying that you can't write for them if you are associated with any other campus publication?

mnagowski
Good article. I'll try to blog about it tonight.

But doesn't the Sun have some sort of ridiculous rule saying that you can't write for them if you are associated with any other campus publication?

Interestingly, after both the Cornell Progressive and Cornell Review addressed this rule in recent issues, the Sun changed its policy so that you can write for multiple publications.

Regardless, I don't think the same restrictions applied to guest columns as to news reporting or a regular column.

It frustrates me that Noel's tenure will be remembered as a golden era for success on the field.

Chris '03
It frustrates me that Noel's tenure will be remembered as a golden era for success on the field.

And you don't think he has had anything to do with it being a golden era?

Jacob '06

Chris '03
It frustrates me that Noel's tenure will be remembered as a golden era for success on the field.

And you don't think he has had anything to do with it being a golden era?

I think a majority of the recent on-the-field accomplishments have been despite his work not because of it.

Chris '03

Jacob '06

Chris '03
It frustrates me that Noel's tenure will be remembered as a golden era for success on the field.

And you don't think he has had anything to do with it being a golden era?

I think a majority of the recent on-the-field accomplishments have been despite his work not because of it.

Having zero inside knowledge, I find that hard to believe.

Jacob '06

Chris '03

Jacob '06

Chris '03
It frustrates me that Noel's tenure will be remembered as a golden era for success on the field.

And you don't think he has had anything to do with it being a golden era?

I think a majority of the recent on-the-field accomplishments have been despite his work not because of it.

Having zero inside knowledge, I find that hard to believe.

Count me in too. Say what you want about the policies of the ticket office, which I agree are problematic, but I would tend to think that Andy has been a net positive factor at Cornell.

I posted a bit of this on the blog, for what it is worth.

Addressing a few points made in the article:

High prices for student tickets limit the Cornell fan base and result in empty seats. By comparison, 2008 NCAA champion Boston College offers free tickets to students

BC students are notorious for being bad hockey fans. Except for games against BU, I'm pretty sure BC home games rarely sell out. I'm sure BC would love to gouge their students if they thought they could get away with it. But it appears that they can't, at least as far as hockey goes.

The tradition of throwing fish at Harvard, which Cornell head coach Mike Schafer ’86 described in the New York Times in 2006 as “a fun tradition that has lived on over the years,” has been stifled under Noel’s tenure, as security guards pat down students entering the rink.

And yet, the fish still make it into the rink, and the fish still fly. Athletics has to make at least a token attempt to curtail the fish, in the spirit of "good sportsmanship" and whatnot. Think of it this way: it should be a fun challenge for the students to sneak fish into the rink and not get caught.

This criminalization of the Lynah Faithful extends to cheering, as students frequently lament that they are afraid to start new cheers or yell loudly for fear of having their season tickets revoked (and not refunded) by the administration. Ushers patrol the staircases and openly glaring at students, as if daring them to finish “rough ’em up …”

Do the students in question realize that cheering can happen without dropping f-bombs and constantly repeating "[school name] sucks!"? If the students are truly being ejected for merely being loud and crazy without repeating words that rhyme with 'puck', then yeah, the ushers need to lay off. But if students are pissed that they can't say "Fuck Harvard" inside of Lynah without reprisal, then I'm fine with their ejection, if only because the Faithful could stand to use some more creative cheering. (Which isn't to say that the student sections are completely devoid of creative cheers, but this is a case where more truly creative cheers can only be a good thing.)

While Cornell hockey fans are renowned for traveling in droves to road games (“Lynah East”), there was comparatively very little undergraduate presence at away contests this year.

Except for the fan bus thing, which I would love to see happen on a regular basis, this can hardly be blamed on Cornell Athletics. A healthy number of students made trips in past years among varying levels of Athletics fucking things up, and no fan bus. It's more likely any decline in road game attendance can be blamed on rising gas prices.

Don't get me wrong, Mitch and Elie. I agree with and support most of what you said in the article. But I think a few of the points aren't quite as simple as you make them out to be.

Will
A healthy number of students made trips in past years among varying levels of Athletics fucking things up, and no fan bus. It's more likely any decline in road game attendance can be blamed on rising gas prices.

I'd guess this more likely is correlated to the success of the team.

It's simply more fun for fans to make a road trip devoted to hockey when they are confident they will watch a victorious weekend, instead of wondering if they're going to put up a couple stinkers.

Well, this seems to come up every year or so. To add to the critique, do you realize that the concern of fish on the ice predated any current students and the current AD. Some of us can remember penalties given to CU for fish, and other objects, thrown by students. Everyone associated with the hockey program wanted some control of the fish situation. Yes Coach Schafer did say the tradition was fun, but he also wanted it controlled.

You should also know, if you did your research, that it was coach Schafer who wanted the language cleaned up. It was brought up early in his tenure. The ADs only implemented what he wanted. Yes the linguistic police go overboard, but it does not stop you from starting new clean cheers.

Although I also worry about the high ticket prices, they also raised "townie" prices and I have 4 seats, how many out there gave to the Lynah renovation project? The non-sellouts only occurred with the extra seats. I wonder how many of the last couple of years non-sellouts would have been sellouts with the old rink? I predict an NCAA challenging team would fill the rink, regardless of the new prices. To say that the reason for empty seats is the price, fails to adequately asses all reasons. And I do know the teams "mediocrity" was mentioned in the article, but almost as an after thought.

Do you know that Coach Schafer changed the senior night program to after the game because of poor fan attendance at the beginning of the game? He didn't feel it was fair to the seniors to do it in front of a half filled rink. True enthusiasm has been going down for years, long before the current AD was involved.

In areas of agreement, I would also like to see a system that rewards the true fan in seat selection, the ideas presented are reasonable.

As many of you know, I've had my run ins with AD Noel, but I've also had to respect his position and overall feel he has done a good job. He's not a touchy-feely person, and I've got personal experience with his anger, but he is also someone who can listen to reason and make changes. He was man enough to send me a hand written note apologizing for what he said to me. For anyone who has gone through the video broadcast troubles, I hope you can say it has gotten better. Certainly the athletic website is better.

We can criticize all we want, but much of what you are critical came first from the coach and not the AD. A little deeper research could have made a more complete article.

Will
Addressing a few points made in the article:

High prices for student tickets limit the Cornell fan base and result in empty seats. By comparison, 2008 NCAA champion Boston College offers free tickets to students

BC students are notorious for being bad hockey fans. Except for games against BU, I'm pretty sure BC home games rarely sell out. I'm sure BC would love to gouge their students if they thought they could get away with it. But it appears that they can't, at least as far as hockey goes.

OK, obviously by the same token Cornell charges next to nothing for equestrian games (matches?) because no one goes. Gouging is a legitimate business practice, but in this case it's unethical. We understand the differences between Cornell and BC fans...we were using the examples as a rhetorical device.

The tradition of throwing fish at Harvard, which Cornell head coach Mike Schafer ’86 described in the New York Times in 2006 as “a fun tradition that has lived on over the years,” has been stifled under Noel’s tenure, as security guards pat down students entering the rink.

And yet, the fish still make it into the rink, and the fish still fly. Athletics has to make at least a token attempt to curtail the fish, in the spirit of "good sportsmanship" and whatnot. Think of it this way: it should be a fun challenge for the students to sneak fish into the rink and not get caught.

But it's not a fun challenge. There's nothing fun about having to stuff fish down your pants because you can't bring it in legitimately. It's not like they turn a blind eye, either. Many people end up wasting money buying fish because they get caught.

This criminalization of the Lynah Faithful extends to cheering, as students frequently lament that they are afraid to start new cheers or yell loudly for fear of having their season tickets revoked (and not refunded) by the administration. Ushers patrol the staircases and openly glaring at students, as if daring them to finish “rough ’em up …”

Do the students in question realize that cheering can happen without dropping f-bombs and constantly repeating "[school name] sucks!"? If the students are truly being ejected for merely being loud and crazy without repeating words that rhyme with 'puck', then yeah, the ushers need to lay off. But if students are pissed that they can't say "Fuck Harvard" inside of Lynah without reprisal, then I'm fine with their ejection, if only because the Faithful could stand to use some more creative cheering. (Which isn't to say that the student sections are completely devoid of creative cheers, but this is a case where more truly creative cheers can only be a good thing.)

If you're driving on the highway, say under the speed limit, but a cop tails you for two hours straight, is that cool? I can live with not swearing, but I don't like having ushers sneak up on me to try to catch me, or stare at me during cheers for the same reason. Pressuring students to use clean language does not necessarily promote increased creativity.

While Cornell hockey fans are renowned for traveling in droves to road games (“Lynah East”), there was comparatively very little undergraduate presence at away contests this year.

Except for the fan bus thing, which I would love to see happen on a regular basis, this can hardly be blamed on Cornell Athletics. A healthy number of students made trips in past years among varying levels of Athletics fucking things up, and no fan bus. It's more likely any decline in road game attendance can be blamed on rising gas prices.

Our point was mainly that Athletics's poor treatment of hockey fans has turned off fans who might otherwise make road trips. Fewer dedicated fans means fewer traveling Faithful.

Don't get me wrong, Mitch and Elie. I agree with and support most of what you said in the article. But I think a few of the points aren't quite as simple as you make them out to be.

I appreciate what you wrote, and much of what we said can be argued both ways. We're inclined to place most of the blame on Athletics' shoulders.

Jim,

Controlling the fish situation means making sure fans don't toss things onto the ice at the wrong times. Throw them once, and then that's it. No policy is comprehensive enough to control idiot fans.

As I said in response to Will's post, I don't have much of a problem with cracking down on language, but I'd prefer not to live in a 1984-like environment in which anything I say could result in losing my season tickets. This fear often stops people from creating new cheers.

I agree with you that a top-caliber team would fill the seats. But this team hasn't done that over the past couple years, and so Athletics needs to adjust. That said, I have no doubt that the rink would sell out nightly at $8 a student ticket.

We did not call for Andy Noel's resignation. I have very little personal experience with him, but I will always remember how horrified I became after listening to him attempt to defend his Lynah crusade at an SA meeting. Sure, the website and video feed have gotten much better, but that's not saying much given where they started.

Mitchell Alva & Elie Bilmes
One member of the Lynah Faithful recently pointed out to us, “Few businesses treat their biggest customers with the least respect.”

A second rude shock awaits the undergraduate Lynah Faithful who graduate to become frequent business flyers.

What you see as creative and energetic cheering may be seen from the other side as (some cheers, some of the time, from some fans) may be seen as boorish and vulgar. Not everyone thinks the F-bomb spurs Cornell to victory. But still, maybe Cornell security could lighten up a bit.

Andy Noel probably is the source of your problems -- the buck stops at his desk, or at least at the ticket window -- but you've got to give the devil his due. He's also the guy who's hired and/or kept on board people like Schafer, Tambroni, and Donahue. And the facilities in Ithaca are looking better this decade than before.

But otherwise, very nicely said.

Jordan 04
It's simply more fun for fans to make a road trip devoted to hockey when they are confident they will watch a victorious weekend, instead of wondering if they're going to put up a couple stinkers.

Isn't that the definition of a bandwagon?

KenP

Jordan 04
It's simply more fun for fans to make a road trip devoted to hockey when they are confident they will watch a victorious weekend, instead of wondering if they're going to put up a couple stinkers.

Isn't that the definition of a bandwagon?

Yeah, aren't the Lynah Faithful... Faithful... through thick and through thin?

ebilmes
If you're driving on the highway, say under the speed limit, but a cop tails you for two hours straight, is that cool? I can live with not swearing, but I don't like having ushers sneak up on me to try to catch me, or stare at me during cheers for the same reason.

Absolutely. I've had the opportunity to observe a pre-game usher meeting, and the general message is "the students are all up to no good. If you aren't catching them, you aren't doing your job." A severe lack of trust exists on both sides.

Jacob '06

Chris '03
It frustrates me that Noel's tenure will be remembered as a golden era for success on the field.

And you don't think he has had anything to do with it being a golden era?

Well, that's only if you let winning be the sole metric of that job's success. I'm firmly in the camp of being against the "win at all costs" mentality, especially when it comes to collegiate athletics. There's no doubt that good coaches and good facilities attract the most successful varsity student-athletes to this school. To me the Athletics Department (and the Director of that department) exists to provide and ensure the health and maintanence of facilities, equipment, and staff for those students who chose to compete or participate in any athletic activity. That includes intercollegiate athletics all the way down to intramural sports and individual wellness activities.

The major intercollegiate programs are the ones that are most visible to those of us far flung from Ithaca. We've had some excellent coaches both arrive and depart Cornell over the past 10 years. Desperately needed track, softball, and soccer facilities have come into being as well as a palace for wrestling (I think it was unnecessary, but that's my opinion). Oh, and there's a new logo. I think I remember hearing complaints that the swimming and diving facilities are in very poor shape compared to our peer institutions. The marching and pep bands fall under the Athletic Department. Overall, they get treated like crap (IMO), but usually get what they need financially (alumni donations fuel it, but the Athletics infrastructure makes it possible).

I'd like to hear from students who can comment on the state of the facilities, equipment, and staff availability for the students not on any varsity team. It's that aspect of the athletics department which serves a much larger portion of the university community, yet gets no publicity. Campus growth has seen the sacrifice and loss of open recreation space on both North and Central campuses. New gym space on West looks impressive.

Personally, I think Andy is one of the biggest jerks to ever have stepped on East Hill. Knowing what I know about him, I wanted him ridden out on a rail years ago. Putting that aside, and looking at the results, I'd say he's done an adequate job. I say that not looking at wins or championships, but at how the Athletic Department has served the overall university community.

RichH
I'd like to hear from students who can comment on the state of the facilities, equipment, and staff availability for the students not on any varsity team. It's that aspect of the athletics department which serves a much larger portion of the university community, yet gets no publicity. Campus growth has seen the sacrifice and loss of open recreation space on both North and Central campuses. New gym space on West looks impressive.

I'm pretty sure this is beyond the scope of the Athletics Department, although things may have changed since I was on the hill.

Most club sports, at least up until 2001 and (as far as I know) through today are funded by the SAFC. They are given almost no institutional support, and receive very little (if any) field space. Back when Cornell had a nationals-caliber ultimate team we practiced at Cass Park, bought our own jerseys, and played an average of 1 tournament in the Ithaca area (extending out to Geneva) every 2-3 years. None of those tournaments was ever played on campus, because we could never get permission to use the fields. In those days, we didn't even get permission to practice on the fields with the exception of a two-week stretch before Nationals in 2001 where we practiced at Jessup - and that was only allowed because IM was done for the year and they had 2 idle weeks before scheduled maintenance for the summer sports camps.

As far as I know, the current ultimate team is in the same situation today, although based on the warm-up suits they all had at sectionals they may be a little bit better funded (or they're traveling shorter distances). They also have some access to on-campus field space nowadays, so that's nice. Perhaps club hockey has a different history - after all, they require a facility - but I suspect that they scrounge(d) for ice time just like other club sports scrounge(d) for practice areas.

I don't know where intramural competition fits in terms of the university hierarchy - that may or may not be part of the department of athletics. It does seem like there are more facilities available on campus for club and individual non-varsity athletes, but that's an ever-changing situation which I suspect has more to do with the University development plan than anything the AD does.

KenP

Jordan 04
It's simply more fun for fans to make a road trip devoted to hockey when they are confident they will watch a victorious weekend, instead of wondering if they're going to put up a couple stinkers.

Isn't that the definition of a bandwagon?

Yes, that's my point.

As far as I know, the current ultimate team is in the same situation today

Don't the current ultimate and rugby teams use the University provided fields over on East Hill Plaza? And doesn't the ultimate team use Barton during the winter?

That said, I don't know why they aren't allowed to be using the Jessup or Appel fields... they might always be reserved for intramurals these days.

mnagowski

As far as I know, the current ultimate team is in the same situation today

Don't the current ultimate and rugby teams use the University provided fields over on East Hill Plaza? And doesn't the ultimate team use Barton during the winter?

That said, I don't know why they aren't allowed to be using the Jessup or Appel fields... they might always be reserved for intramurals these days.

Jessup is a dedicated intramural field, and the intramural people are very stingy about letting other people use it.

mnagowski

As far as I know, the current ultimate team is in the same situation today

Don't the current ultimate and rugby teams use the University provided fields over on East Hill Plaza? And doesn't the ultimate team use Barton during the winter?

That said, I don't know why they aren't allowed to be using the Jessup or Appel fields... they might always be reserved for intramurals these days.

From what I understand, the team does have some field space nowadays. I don't know where, because I ran out of eligibility like 7 years ago and drifted away from the college team with my club commitments. Like I said, it seems like things have improved for club teams, but that probably has nothing to do with the AD.

I don't know what the deal is with Barton during the winter nowadays, but we used to have a friend of the team (or an injured player) apply for a job as the midnight manager at Barton just so we could get in there. That wasn't a case of institutional support so much as an opportunity that we seized as our only chance for winter practices. As an aside, practice at midnight in Barton blows. The lack of wind and knee-destroying surface were pretty serious drawbacks, but then again I suppose it was better than nothing. Still. Ugh. Even at age 19 that was brutal.

When I was an undergrad, Jessup was always strictly for IM use. I think the logic was that they needed to keep the fields in shape, which makes sense - sports like ultimate and rugby do a lot of damage over time (or on one rainy afternoon). If they allowed club teams to practice there the IM participants would almost never have a decent place to play.

Tom Lento
Perhaps club hockey has a different history - after all, they require a facility - but I suspect that they scrounge(d) for ice time just like other club sports scrounge(d) for practice areas.

The women's club hockey team has had good luck getting funding from the SAFC in the past couple years. Since we're able to tell them fairly accurately what our budget for ice times and traveling costs are, they're willing to give us what we need.

We've been able to have our ice times at Lynah for practices and games mostly paid for and our gas costs for traveling covered.

We even have had a decent practice time (8-9:15), not at an outrageous hour and can schedule game times at Lynah regularly.

Tom,

The Ultimate teams play behind Reis Tennis Center at fields paid for by the club Rugby teams, cause they have more money than we do. The field space is limited, meaning that we turned away over fifty players this year who wanted to play (and would have formed our C team). Regardless, we DO have field space on campus and have had it for the last 3 years. Prior to that, Shake played at Appel (now unplayable) and the Buds went to Cass.

We don't play at Appel because... have you been there lately? It's literally rock. The upper field is ok- the women's teams play there occasionally.

Over the winter, our A team had the floor of Barton between 11pm and midnight on tuesdays and thursdays. The B team had midnight-1am (and my professors wonder why I never made it to my 8:25 class on wednesday...) I believe Rugby had the same situation, but earlier in the day? Not sure. If you're counting, though, that's 2 hours of actual play per week. Plus the 10-odd hours of running practice, but who's counting?

The warmups were bought at the annual athletics tag sale. They're soccer, and a few players got them. We still purchase all our own equipment, but we did get enough money to cover driving to all our tourneys this year.

In short, it's a pretty similar situation to what you're describing, but with field space near campus (I refuse to call East Hill Plaza on campus when the freshmen have to take a huge long bus ride to get there).

Nardo
(Shake #7)

sen '08
The women's club hockey team has had good luck getting funding from the SAFC in the past couple years. Since we're able to tell them fairly accurately what our budget for ice times and traveling costs are, they're willing to give us what we need.

We've been able to have our ice times at Lynah for practices and games mostly paid for and our gas costs for traveling covered.

We even have had a decent practice time (8-9:15), not at an outrageous hour and can schedule game times at Lynah regularly.

Glad to hear you've had success there. I don't know if it's still true, but the Buds used to be the darlings of the SAFC because they had a solid budget plan each year and filled out all of the paperwork correctly.

At any rate, it seems like the AD is still not responsible for club teams. They're SAFC-funded registered student organizations.

Waaay back when the Buds began, some of us originals did some things right. Once it was clear that Ultimate would be more than a one-year wonder, the guys made a point of getting formal recognition - from requesting SAFC funding to getting gym credit for participation. We also got on the schedules for (the late lamented) Lower Alumni field for outdoor games and Barton Hall for indoor games. It was surprisingly easy. I think I even played one game on Schoellkopf though maybe it was a practice before going to Penn State, where we knew we'd be playing on astroturf.

Fwiw, collegiate tournaments were rare back then. Most travel was to play a single game, then hang out with the opponents. Lucky for us, in the 70's most good college & club teams were in the east, so we had plenty of scheduling opportunities. The nearest decent opponent, btw, was Hamilton College. The only good west coast team, iirc, was UC-Santa Barbara, and they were real good.

Karl (Buds from inception to '77)

I haven’t had time to adequately respond to criticisms levied against our article, but now I’d like to take a minute to do so. Sorry if it takes you a few minutes to read.

Elie and I are not ignorant of the fact that fish and swearing precede Andy Noel’s tenure. Although we make no mention of that fact in the short space we were given, I assure you that we are well aware that Coach Schafer, in his inaugural season in 1995-1996, personally asked the Faithful to stop being vulgar. That occurred well before Andy Noel took over in 1999. We also know that the administration has never condoned fish throwing since it first occurred in 1973. Please, Jim, don’t insinuate that we lack research or historical knowledge of Cornell hockey just because we are students and not alumni like yourself. This is not the first time you've done this.

In addition, that was not the focus of the article; it was one of many pieces to the puzzle. Our article pertains to the overall treatment of fans, with the majority of discussion focusing on ticket prices and policy proposals to allow the most faithful fans the opportunity to see the team from the seats they want and more often on the road.

Coach Schafer has sent mixed signals concerning his feelings of fish and swearing.

The full quotes of the New York Times article are as follows:

New York Times
Cornell Coach Mike Schafer, who was a popular player for Cornell in the mid-1980s, called the Harvard game an event.

“When I was playing here as a freshman, I thought the sight of fish flying over the boards was hilarious,” Schafer said. “It’s still a fun tradition that has lived on over the years, and it is all a part of the same kind of electricity that a college basketball fan might find at a Duke-North Carolina game.”

Later in the article Donato said:

New York Times
“But over the years, I’ve really come to appreciate this rivalry,” said Donato, whose team is the defending ECAC Hockey League champion. “And whether Cornell fans are throwing fish or newspapers on the ice, our guys have come to appreciate it as well.

“It’s a great college atmosphere, one that we embrace. We also circle the Cornell-Harvard game on our schedule.”

However, Schafer has also said:

Mike Schafer
"In the course of the game, it's a distraction for both teams in the sense that you have to wait for the fish to be cleaned up and everything else," Schafer said. "Everybody gets out there and they're really charged up to go, and they know that there's going to be a delay."

And

“The worst that can happen [is] fans throw stuff on the ice and it penalizes us throughout the course of the game,” Schafer said. “I know that when I played we had to kill three penalties over the course of the game because of fans throwing things on the ice.”

And

“I think our administration has done a good job, because at one point in time it was out of control,” Schafer said. “But Cornell students won’t be denied and if they want to do it they’re going to find some creative way of doing it. As long as they don’t cost us a penalty, that’s the biggest thing.”

While Noel’s reasoning is this:

Andy Noel
“Sportsmanship is a lost art in many respects and I’m not ready to give it up,” Noel said. “I’m somebody that respects tradition a lot, but I don’t respect tradition that is insulting to our visitors.”

Thus, Noel and Schafer have very different reasons for stopping the fish. Noel attributes it to sportsmanship while Schafer cares about winning. Bill brought up the great point that ultimately the buck stops at Noel’s desk. He is Schafer’s boss and is ultimately responsible for policy that athletics puts forth. We respect Schafer’s not wanting a penalty, and in fact desire that too, but we do not agree with how athletics has gone about doing so.

Our beef, therefore, is with athletics itself. We do not necessarily criticize the policies themselves, rather the implementation under Noel’s administration. If the athletics department was a loose affiliation of independent fiefdoms united by a common team name, then perhaps we could focus on just Coach Schafer as primarily responsible for the mistreatment of hockey fans. However, the AD is a more cohesive unit, and thus the shortcomings we find all must relate back to the department itself, more specifically the implementation under Noel’s tenure.

Ticket prices, t-shirt prices, giveaways, ticket distribution, militaristic enforcement of fish and swearing, and the lack of support for road games relate directly to Noel and the rest of the AD, not to Schafer.

As for swearing, we don’t disagree that fans can cheer without swearing, but many of you are not current students. You don’t sit in the student section and get the evil stare from ushers. It’s not so much that we are no longer allow to swear, it’s the enforcement mechanisms and penalties associated with swearing that is the larger issue. That and the relative complete lack of enforcement related to the other Cornell sports. Is swearing only unsportsmanlike for men’s varsity ice hockey games?

I’d like to remind you that this was a minor focus of the article.

As for ticket prices, in talking with many students, we’ve found that many would go to more games, they just simply are unwilling to shell out $15-$30 a weekend to see a couple of hockey games. The team’s mediocrity is indeed a central focus to this. They go hand in hand, as a well performing team sells out regardless of price, and a poorly performing team does not. We couldn’t devote an entire article outlining that and I think we were quite clear when we say, “The high price and increasingly convoluted process of buying tickets, coupled with the team’s relative mediocrity, produce fewer and fewer undergraduates who want to buy tickets.”

Finally, just because Lynah was renovated doesn’t mean student hockey fans should pay for the construction. Lynah is a university building and is enjoyed by fans, students, townies, and athletes alike, whether it be varsity hockey, club hockey, intramural hockey, open skates, or skate with the team. The reasoning for the AD to pass along the cost of renovation to just varsity ice hockey fans lacks substance. If that logic was applied elsewhere, then wrestling fans should pay to watch matches at Friedman.

What I think people lose sight of is that Elie and I disagree with how the fans are treated. I don’t think either of us truly cares if we can’t say “Fuck ‘em up,” but does saying that warrant getting our season tickets taken away, tickets, mind you, that present a decent financial burden? There is a double standard for hockey fans, and that needs to end.

Thanks for the update, however I still feel you could have strengthened your point by simply acknowledging that others, most importantly Coach Schafer, wanted some of the changes you discussed. It wouldn't have taken much to put in a short phrase about it. By not doing so I felt it was necessary to make that point. Other than your words, I have no idea what knowledge you have about hockey's history.

I agree that the enforcement is the issue, but you implied that all of this was because of AD Noel. The way you said it above has a lot more meaning, at least to me.

Be careful mentioning wrestling, as that building was basically paid for by alumni. That was why I asked how many contributed to Lynah's renovation. I'm sorry if it read like I only meant the article's authors. I meant that to the entire eLynah readership, however rereading it, it's not clearly written. The reason for the renovation was the men's program. None of the other uses you mention needed the changes. If that's so then those that gain the benefits should be mainly responsible for the costs, not just students but all. In fact I agree with you that students should not have to pay more, except by an increase in fans coming to the games.

Jim's right, as I believe the Friedman Center was paid entirely though alumni gifts. So when it's your money, you can pay for whatever you want, even an underwater basket weaving course taught at the bottom of Cayuga Lake.

I do agree that the prices for students should not have gone up, and the 'townies' should have been 'taxed' instead. But I also think part of the reason the student ticket prices went up is because Athletics neglected to apply for SA byline funding three years ago, which ended a pretty generous subsidy to athletics. $100k or so a year, if I remember correctly.

And I think most agree that the current lottery system is atrocious.

Where I differ is with the attitude that Athletics needs to start 'treating' students better without proposing any sort of constructive framework for fixing the problem. The University by it's very nature is a very messy bureaucracy there aren't necessarily easy solutions to your problems, but I think you will find Athletics and Student Life generally receptive to your complaints if you present them in a cordial, cooperative manner. I already wrote on the blog about how a student organization could easily be set up to charter busses to the North Country (hell, coordinate something with the Ski Club), but you could also form an ad hoc working group to air your other concerns, and a couple of well thought emails and an online petition could do wonders for your/our cause.

Also, I will note that there are 1,769 $1,000 giving opportunities to name seats over at LynahRink.com

[www.lynahrink.com]

We appreciate the constructive criticism.

You're right about what you say. We were in a hurry to put this to print before the slope day paper (which no one reads) and in hindsight, our article could've been stronger with a mention about Schafer.

As for passing the cost on...we still don't know for sure if that's a primary cause in high ticket prices, but assuming it is, then you would hope that the revenue from added seats (over time) would pay for the cost of the renovation, and the rest could be covered by donations or the university, not just student hockey fans (and if it doesn't, then please remind me about the economic incentive for the renovation).

mnagowski
Also, I will note that there are 1,769 $1,000 giving opportunities to name seats over at LynahRink.com

[www.lynahrink.com]

I will also note, with disdain, that they have the numbering backwards, at least on section C (I didn't check the others). Seat 1 in any given row in section C is on the section B side, or on the right if you're looking at the section from the ice, as the diagram appears to depict. Yet the website has it on the left. I hope hundreds of people haven't accidentally "bought" the wrong seats throughout the rink.

mnagowski
I do agree that the prices for students should not have gone up, and the 'townies' should have been 'taxed' instead.

The cost of non-student tickets has risen sharply as well. It's now up to $18, $21 in section C. In 2004-2005, it was $12.

amerks127
We appreciate the constructive criticism.


As for passing the cost on...we still don't know for sure if that's a primary cause in high ticket prices, but assuming it is, then you would hope that the revenue from added seats (over time) would pay for the cost of the renovation, and the rest could be covered by donations or the university, not just student hockey fans (and if it doesn't, then please remind me about the economic incentive for the renovation).

The problem, at least as I see it, is highlighted here. It seems like the tone is that only students have been asked to help. As has been pointed out before, and again in jtw's post, everyone has had to pay more and even some alums have had their activities curtailed; see my signature line. Some of us have donated when the U asked, that has always been part of the plan.Your argument would be a lot stronger if it didn't seem you felt you were the only group suffering.

Jim -- Were you a candy thrower? If so, thanks!

mnagowski
.

I do agree that the prices for students should not have gone up, and the 'townies' should have been 'taxed' instead.

Yeah, God forbid the "poor" students park their Lexus RX330s and BMW X5s and walk for an hour here or there to save the 30 bucks for tickets. No, lets tax the "rich" townies who make $9.75 an hour at the bagel store or 35 grand a year working for Cornell.

beejj

mnagowski
.

I do agree that the prices for students should not have gone up, and the 'townies' should have been 'taxed' instead.

Yeah, God forbid the "poor" students park their Lexus RX330s and BMW X5s and walk for an hour here or there to save the 30 bucks for tickets. No, lets tax the "rich" townies who make $9.75 an hour at the bagel store or 35 grand a year working for Cornell.

You paint in broad brushed strokes. Thousands of Cornell students come from more modest means. And plenty of those who sit is Section C are Cornell professors making pretty good change.

The important distinction is that most Cornell students are already paying tens of thousands of dollars to support the various pursuits of the University.

mnagowski
[The important distinction is that most Cornell students are already paying tens of thousands of dollars to support the various pursuits of the University.

Cornell students aren't paying tens of thousands of dollars to support the various pursuits of the University. They are paying tens of thousands of dollars for a University education and (hopefully) a diploma with Ezra's face on it. It's an investment by the student and a fair* exchange. It doesn't give entitle students to cheap hockey tickets or a hockey team, for that matter.

* Fair in the sense of honest and clear frmo the outset, not whether the price is fair.

I'd surprised if ticket prices reflect anythign mroe than what the AD thinks they can charge to maximize revenue. Maybe it's not the right price point - they didn't seel every ticket this year. But considering that the AD reportedly has to largely support itself and hockey is about the only significant revenue sport it makes sense to try to maximize revenue from hockey tickets.

KeithK

mnagowski
[The important distinction is that most Cornell students are already paying tens of thousands of dollars to support the various pursuits of the University.

Cornell students aren't paying tens of thousands of dollars to support the various pursuits of the University. They are paying tens of thousands of dollars for a University education and (hopefully) a diploma with Ezra's face on it. It's an investment by the student and a fair* exchange. It doesn't give entitle students to cheap hockey tickets or a hockey team, for that matter.

* Fair in the sense of honest and clear frmo the outset, not whether the price is fair.

Let's not kid ourselves. Cornell students pay for the status of the Cornell pedigree and all of the perks it bestows in our society. The education helps keep up the farce, and sports are one of the many things intended to keep HSers applying, keep them happy once they get there, and hopefully keep them donating after they leave.

Cornell students aren't paying tens of thousands of dollars to support the various pursuits of the University. They are paying tens of thousands of dollars for a University education and (hopefully) a diploma with Ezra's face on it. It's an investment by the student and a fair* exchange. It doesn't give entitle students to cheap hockey tickets or a hockey team, for that matter.

Well, then this is where you and I differ. I am of the opinion that a large part of the value in a Cornell education lies beyond the diploma and the classroom, and can be found in the way that students grow socially, emotionally, physically, and morally during their time at Cornell.

You may not think that the University should provide cheap hockey tickets to students, but it is already financially supporting a lot of things to support the various ways in which students can grow and learn during college. These include such things as rather irreverent guest lecturers (John Cleese or Bill Nye anyone?), Habitat for Humanity trips to rural West Virgina, Adirondack backpacking expeditions, intercollegiate engineering competitions, poetry readings and art installations, and yes, intercollegiate athletics. Personally, I believe I benefited immensely from a lot of these activities when I was in college, and I know most of my peers feel the same way too.

You may think these are are frivolous wastes of University money, but I imagine most students and alums do not. In fact, the reason why I decided to attend Cornell was due to the seemingly endless supply (and balance!) of student activities found on campus. And the reason why most of us are here on this thread is because we found a lot of value in Cornell's hockey program -- socially, emotionally, etc., and we would like to see the sustained student and alumni interest in the program to continue.

So when admission to a college hockey game is free for students at other ECAC schools, but the student ticket price of Cornell hockey keeps on going up, I think we have a valid reason to be concerned.

mnagowski

Cornell students aren't paying tens of thousands of dollars to support the various pursuits of the University. They are paying tens of thousands of dollars for a University education and (hopefully) a diploma with Ezra's face on it. It's an investment by the student and a fair* exchange. It doesn't give entitle students to cheap hockey tickets or a hockey team, for that matter.

Well, then this is where you and I differ. I am of the opinion that a large part of the value in a Cornell education lies beyond the diploma and the classroom, and can be found in the way that students grow socially, emotionally, physically, and morally during their time at Cornell.

You may not think that the University should provide cheap hockey tickets to students, but it is already financially supporting a lot of things to support the various ways in which students can grow and learn during college. ...

You may think these are are frivolous wastes of University money, but I imagine most students and alums do not. ...

So when admission to a college hockey game is free for students at other ECAC schools, but the student ticket price of Cornell hockey keeps on going up, I think we have a valid reason to be concerned.

You're reading too much into my post. I don't necessarily think all of the other things that Cornell spends money on are frivolous. I don't think that the other stuff is meaningless. I'm just saying that what you're paying for specifically is the education and the pedigree. The other stuff is gravy. It may or may not have affected your decision to come to Ithaca. But you can't really expect any specific benefit from your tuition dollars other than an education.

We can ask for cheap or free hockey tickets. But paying tuition doesn't entitle us to cheap hockey viewing.

ftyuv

KeithK
[
Cornell students aren't paying tens of thousands of dollars to support the various pursuits of the University. They are paying tens of thousands of dollars for a University education and (hopefully) a diploma with Ezra's face on it. It's an investment by the student and a fair exchange.

Let's not kid ourselves. Cornell students pay for the status of the Cornell pedigree and all of the perks it bestows in our society. The education helps keep up the farce, and sports are one of the many things intended to keep HSers applying, keep them happy once they get there, and hopefully keep them donating after they leave.

Yes, the pedigree matters. That's why I mentioned Ezra's head. But I do think I got a pretty good education from Cornell. I'm pretty confident that it was a better education than I would've gotten at Joe Blow State. So it's not just the pedigree that I was paying for.

KeithK

mnagowski

Cornell students aren't paying tens of thousands of dollars to support the various pursuits of the University. They are paying tens of thousands of dollars for a University education and (hopefully) a diploma with Ezra's face on it. It's an investment by the student and a fair* exchange. It doesn't give entitle students to cheap hockey tickets or a hockey team, for that matter.

Well, then this is where you and I differ. I am of the opinion that a large part of the value in a Cornell education lies beyond the diploma and the classroom, and can be found in the way that students grow socially, emotionally, physically, and morally during their time at Cornell.

You may not think that the University should provide cheap hockey tickets to students, but it is already financially supporting a lot of things to support the various ways in which students can grow and learn during college. ...

You may think these are are frivolous wastes of University money, but I imagine most students and alums do not. ...

So when admission to a college hockey game is free for students at other ECAC schools, but the student ticket price of Cornell hockey keeps on going up, I think we have a valid reason to be concerned.

You're reading too much into my post. I don't necessarily think all of the other things that Cornell spends money on are frivolous. I don't think that the other stuff is meaningless. I'm just saying that what you're paying for specifically is the education and the pedigree. The other stuff is gravy. It may or may not have affected your decision to come to Ithaca. But you can't really expect any specific benefit from your tuition dollars other than an education.

We can ask for cheap or free hockey tickets. But paying tuition doesn't entitle us to cheap hockey viewing.

Totally agree with you, Keith. Should I be worried about that? Getting back to the subject, students don't even pay for their entire education with their tuition. That's why endowment is so important. Now I hope that a good hockey experience as a student makes one more willing to donate as an alum, but that doesn't mean low priced or free tickets are guaranteed.

Jim Hyla
Getting back to the subject, students don't even pay for their entire education with their tuition. That's why endowment is so important.

...and current-use, non-endowment gifts, too.

</proselytize>

Jim Hyla
[Totally agree with you, Keith. Should I be worried about that?

That was my first thought to. Had to double check the "Posted by:" field . Then again, we definitely agree on the important things in life. Like what college hockey team to root for.

KeithK

mnagowski

Cornell students aren't paying tens of thousands of dollars to support the various pursuits of the University. They are paying tens of thousands of dollars for a University education and (hopefully) a diploma with Ezra's face on it. It's an investment by the student and a fair* exchange. It doesn't give entitle students to cheap hockey tickets or a hockey team, for that matter.

Well, then this is where you and I differ. I am of the opinion that a large part of the value in a Cornell education lies beyond the diploma and the classroom, and can be found in the way that students grow socially, emotionally, physically, and morally during their time at Cornell.

You may not think that the University should provide cheap hockey tickets to students, but it is already financially supporting a lot of things to support the various ways in which students can grow and learn during college. ...

You may think these are are frivolous wastes of University money, but I imagine most students and alums do not. ...

So when admission to a college hockey game is free for students at other ECAC schools, but the student ticket price of Cornell hockey keeps on going up, I think we have a valid reason to be concerned.

You're reading too much into my post. I don't necessarily think all of the other things that Cornell spends money on are frivolous. I don't think that the other stuff is meaningless. I'm just saying that what you're paying for specifically is the education and the pedigree. The other stuff is gravy. It may or may not have affected your decision to come to Ithaca. But you can't really expect any specific benefit from your tuition dollars other than an education.

We can ask for cheap or free hockey tickets. But paying tuition doesn't entitle us to cheap hockey viewing.

The choice isn't between "take your diploma and be happy with it" and "free back massages for everyone". Your position assumes that tuition covers "education," as opposed to "a year at an elite university environment." If the other stuff that Cornell provides - more or less standard at any equivalent institution in 2008 - weren't provided, Cornell would charge a lot less and prospective students would be a lot less interested in attending, despite the quality of the faculty (which would soon drop off when the university became a dreary place and professors left in droves).

It is reasonable to ask why Cornell charges students for hockey when so many schools don't and charges for hockey when it doesn't charge for other potentially revenue generating sports (or, at least doesn't compel the whole school to pay via student activity fee for the tickets of those that do attend). There are both good and bad answers to these questions, but "suck it, undergrad" isn't one of the good ones.

ugarte
Your position assumes that tuition covers "education," as opposed to "a year at an elite university environment." [/q]

I think the point is tuition doesn't cover education. The U needs to find ways to pay for what's not covered and then decide what else to offer for free and how much to charge for the others.

[q]It is reasonable to ask why Cornell charges students for hockey when so many schools don't and charges for hockey when it doesn't charge for other potentially revenue generating sports (or, at least doesn't compel the whole school to pay via student activity fee for the tickets of those that do attend). There are both good and bad answers to these questions, but "suck it, undergrad" isn't one of the good ones.

It's probably decided it can charge for hockey and still get fans, whereas charging the same for rowing probably wouldn't generate much revenue and would cancel any fans.

My point is that it doesn't have enough revenue to give everything away for free, and it should try and be fiscally responsible when tuition can't cover the costs. Insert all the articles, blogs,and eLynah discussion about our lack of parity with Harvard, Yale and Princeton's endowment and the impact upon recruiting. They have to generate money from somewhere; either people can pay more or we can give more.

mnagowski
You may not think that the University should provide cheap hockey tickets to students, but it is already financially supporting a lot of things to support the various ways in which students can grow and learn during college. These include such things as rather irreverent guest lecturers (John Cleese or Bill Nye anyone?), Habitat for Humanity trips to rural West Virgina, Adirondack backpacking expeditions, intercollegiate engineering competitions, poetry readings and art installations, and yes, intercollegiate athletics. Personally, I believe I benefited immensely from a lot of these activities when I was in college, and I know most of my peers feel the same way too.

You may think these are are frivolous wastes of University money, but I imagine most students and alums do not.

You just shot your own argument in the foot. Most of the items that you cite are NOT funded out of the main university budget. Speaking as a past president of Cornell's Habitat for Humanity chapter, I assure you that the organization gets no money from Cornell apart from the SAFC funds that it applies for; the vast majority of its budget comes from its own fundraising efforts. The same is true for many of the other activities you list - they are generally self-funded with SAFC supplements at best. I don't know if it is still true today, but the year that I was a member of Cornell's Hybrid-Electric Vehicle team, the budget was entirely sponsor based, and those sponsors were secured by the team's own efforts - the university provided lab space, but everything else was self funded.

Just because something is "good" (and I absolutely agree that everything you mention, including cheap hockey tickets, is good) does not mean that the university should necessarily be funding it.

ugarte
The choice isn't between "take your diploma and be happy with it" and "free back massages for everyone". Your position assumes that tuition covers "education," as opposed to "a year at an elite university environment." If the other stuff that Cornell provides - more or less standard at any equivalent institution in 2008 - weren't provided, Cornell would charge a lot less and prospective students would be a lot less interested in attending, despite the quality of the faculty (which would soon drop off when the university became a dreary place and professors left in droves).

It is reasonable to ask why Cornell charges students for hockey when so many schools don't and charges for hockey when it doesn't charge for other potentially revenue generating sports (or, at least doesn't compel the whole school to pay via student activity fee for the tickets of those that do attend). There are both good and bad answers to these questions, but "suck it, undergrad" isn't one of the good ones.

I'm not saying "suck it undergrads". I'm just trying to throw some cold water on what I see as a sense of entitlement in some of the posts here. Yes, Cornell would be a much less atractive place without all of the stuff that happens on campus. Yes, the quality of the faculty would probably suffer as well. But you're not paying for that stuff. Tens of thousands of dollars in tuition doesn't mean you have to get free or cheap hockey tickets.

FWIW, Cornell does effectively charge the entire student body for tickets to other sporting events. Or at least they used to. When I was an undergrad (89-93) students had to pay to get into football and basketball games (and probably a couple others as well). This changed in the mid 90's when the SA first allocated money to athletics. As I understand it Mr. Noel didn't properly file for SA money recently and that's when hockey ticket prices jumped up. If no money is flowing to athletics from this channel then I guess the AD decided that it wasn't prudent to start charging for football/basketball/lacrosse/etc. when there was now a long history of students getting in free. It's a lot easier to justify a price increase than charging for something that used to be free.

You just shot your own argument in the foot.

I'm fully aware of this fact. But one way or another -- either through direct financial support, a quasi-student run funding arm, or implicit in-kind support -- the University is supporting (and subsidizing) a lot of activities that otherwise wouldn't be able to exist. I helped to organize a Habitat for Humanity dodgeball tournament and fundraiser in Bartels Hall for a couple of years, and besides for the $5k we received from the Student Activities Fund, we received a lot of in-kind support from University counsel, environmental health and safety, etc. And if the SAFC didn't exist in its present form, some other University enterprise would be around to serve the same function. It's not like Cornell would go on without supporting student activities.

As I understand it Mr. Noel didn't properly file for SA money recently and that's when hockey ticket prices jumped up.

This might be the underlying culprit. My understanding of the situation was that Athletics filled out the by-line funding forms as they had always been done, failing to realize that a new process had been put into place. And then the SA decided to make an example out of Athletics. I'm not certain if Athletics has been able to reapply successfully yet.

f no money is flowing to athletics from this channel then I guess the AD decided that it wasn't prudent to start charging for football/basketball/lacrosse/etc. when there was now a long history of students getting in free.

But students do have to pay for all of those events:

[www.cornellbigred.com]

Notice how grad students only pay $9, whereas for undergrads it is $13? Seems like the graduate student council is still funding Athletics.

mnagowski

f no money is flowing to athletics from this channel then I guess the AD decided that it wasn't prudent to start charging for football/basketball/lacrosse/etc. when there was now a long history of students getting in free.

But students do have to pay for all of those events:

[www.cornellbigred.com]

Notice how grad students only pay $9, whereas for undergrads it is $13? Seems like the graduate student council is still funding Athletics.

OK, sorry. I guess I'm not up on the situation in other sports anymore. . Point still holds. Students used to pay. Then the SA funded it and they were free for a while.

KeithK

mnagowski

f no money is flowing to athletics from this channel then I guess the AD decided that it wasn't prudent to start charging for football/basketball/lacrosse/etc. when there was now a long history of students getting in free.

But students do have to pay for all of those events:

[www.cornellbigred.com]

Notice how grad students only pay $9, whereas for undergrads it is $13? Seems like the graduate student council is still funding Athletics.

OK, sorry. I guess I'm not up on the situation in other sports anymore. . Point still holds. Students used to pay. Then the SA funded it and they were free for a while.

No worries. It was a surprise to me too. I apologize for sounding so curt.