Selection Show

So far, Bob Norton has referred to Clarkson as Niagara, misquoted about three different statistics, and one of the other correspondents in quick succession called the Colorado College goalie and coach by incorrect names. Gotta love when these guys do their homework before getting on tv

The Albany regional will have Clarkson vs. St Cloud and Niagara vs. Michigan

Princeton gets NoDak in Madison

So Clarkson gets a trip to Albany after all?

At least the committee didn't make it easy for Wisconsin. They have to play Denver and then theoretically North Dakota (if the seeds hold).

At least it saved our (not-so-)annual bitching about being sent west

I've worshipped the Pairwise since they were created and check them after every game and I know the Pairwise and the NC$$ criteria say that Wisconsin should be in but they have a losing record, losing comparison to Minnesota State, the team that should be in and by putting them in, the losing record team plays on their home ice. How is that difficult?

Wisconsin shutout North Dakota at home this season.
Wisconsin beat Denver in Denver this season.
2-2 against your (potential) regional opponents is not bad and you're familiar with them.

I challenge (because I have to leave for Bridgeport in a bit and the data is way too scattered) for somebody to find an example of the NC$$ selecting at large a team in any sport with a losing record.

I'm only this animated because we have:
1. Six straight years of 'western' NCAA men's champions (and with this field seven seems likely)
2. Nine straight years (after yesterday) of 'western' NCAA women's champions
3. March 26, 2006

End rant.

The only way I can rationalize the Midwest/Wisconsin bracket is that playing Wisconsin (#3 seed in the bracket at home) is not as much of a disadvantage for the WCHA teams as it would be for say, Michigan or Miami or UNH.

It has been said (not by me) that the teams in the WCHA are so equal and they beat each other up on a regular basis. Well, next weekend in Madison they can have one big WCHA showdown or badger/pioneer/sioux brawl.

PS I hope the Tigers can come away with a victory or two.

sah67
The Albany regional will have Clarkson vs. St Cloud and Niagara vs. Michigan

If Clarkson can't win a game when they're the de facto home team and are playing against a team that also tends to choke in the NCAAs... well, that'd be pretty sad. This is about as favorable of a draw as Clarkson possibly could've hoped for.

I like how they went out of their way to protect no. 1 seeds from having to play at host schools the year Michigan doesn't have a home regional. Wouldn't want poor Michigan to get a taste of its own medicine now would we? Woulda been funny to see an under-.500 Bucky team knock of Michigan at home to earn a FF bid.

Chris '03
I like how they went out of their way to protect no. 1 seeds from having to play at host schools the year Michigan doesn't have a home regional. Wouldn't want poor Michigan to get a taste of its own medicine now would we? Woulda been funny to see an under-.500 Bucky team knock of Michigan at home to earn a FF bid.

Technicality, but an under-.500 Wisconsin team wouldn't have been able to knock off Michigan. After their first round win, before their game against Michigan, they'd be a .500 team.

Why do we need to do to become a host school? BU hosts in order to stay back here in the East if they make the tournament. That would have helped in years past when the system royally screwed us.

FRAT GUY AT TRILLIUM IN LYNAH FAITHFU
Why do we need to do to become a host school? BU hosts in order to stay back here in the East if they make the tournament. That would have helped in years past when the system royally screwed us.

Well, as for what we need to do, I suppose it's just submitting an application. Now, as for whether we'd be chosen, with a smaller rink and a somewhat out of the way location, that's another question altogether.

FRAT GUY AT TRILLIUM IN LYNAH FAITHFU
Why do we need to do to become a host school? BU hosts in order to stay back here in the East if they make the tournament. That would have helped in years past when the system royally screwed us.

Well, you need an Athletic Department who is willing and financially able to do all the work involved in hosting. As far as facilities, Lynah isn't adequate for such a thing, so it would have to be in a place like Rochester, Syracuse, or Binghamton. The host of the 2007 Regional in Rochester was the ECAC.

RPI frequently hosts regionals in Albany...and is in fact the co-host of the East regional next week with the ECAC Hockey being the other host. Next year, it moves to the Bridgeport Arena with Fairfield and Yale co-hosting. (Albany & Bridgeport repeats until 2011).

[www.ncaa.com]

Right, but it need not be here at Lynah. I meant that BU has hosted in Worcester, not at the Agganis. I guess Athletics would not be willing to fully prop up an Albany/Syracuse/Rochester regional.

I was having this discussion in between games in Albany.

IMO I think the facilities that make geographical sense for Cornell to host are simply inadequate for the NCAA Tournament to go there. Broome County Vet in Binghamton is basically the size of Lynah (4727 capacity), and the War Memorial in Syracuse is around 6000. Both are also old and not fan friendly. The only decent option near Ithaca would be Blue Cross, and as mentioned there is competition to being the host (ECAC, RIT).

It really comes down to wanting to be host, and presenting a proposal to the NCAA. I'm sure they wouldn't mind the prospect of Cornell hosting and the potential attendance increase that would entail. I'm sure there's some leniency with geography if Cornell wanted to sponsor Albany or even Scranton. IIRC Michigan Tech hosted the Green Bay Regional-- now that's a stretch.

Navy (along with the AHA) is hosting the DC FF next year, and they don't even have a team. It seems that there is opportunity if a school wants to do it.

For those not in the know, what goes into "hosting", and what benefit is derived for the host school, beyond being the nominal "host"?

CM cWo 44
It really comes down to wanting to be host, and presenting a proposal to the NCAA. I'm sure they wouldn't mind the prospect of Cornell hosting and the potential attendance increase that would entail. I'm sure there's some leniency with geography if Cornell wanted to sponsor Albany or even Scranton. IIRC Michigan Tech hosted the Green Bay Regional-- now that's a stretch.

I don't think geography is a requirement when it comes to hosting. One of the Alaska schools "hosted" the Anaheim FF a few years back. Based on that standard, we could host in Philadelphia or DC. The question is willingness to host and do the work involved in hosting (that is, organizing the effort). The further the site is from the host school the harder it would be for the school to demonstrate that they could effectively coordinate the event.

Cornell has hosted NCAA tournament events in other sports, but I can only think of events that took place in Ithaca (e.g. lacrosse). That's a lot easier than hosting an off campus event in another city.

Hosting would be a great, hands-on project for the Hotel School. Of course it would require Athletics and the Hotel School to work smoothly together, but I'd think the Hotel School would (or at least should) love to have a project like this - starting with the proposal writing, related planning and negotiation with potential sites and presentation to the NCAA and then continuing hopefully with actual detailed event planning and execution. It would be a chance for students to get real event planning experience that doesn't come along often in an academic setting.

jkahn
Hosting would be a great, hands-on project for the Hotel School. Of course it would require Athletics and the Hotel School to work smoothly together, but I'd think the Hotel School would (or at least should) love to have a project like this - starting with the proposal writing, related planning and negotiation with potential sites and presentation to the NCAA and then continuing hopefully with actual detailed event planning and execution. It would be a chance for students to get real event planning experience that doesn't come along often in an academic setting.

Sounds reasonable. But remember, there's a time lag between proposal and the actual event. The students who were involved in the proposal writing might have graduated by the time the event happens. So the Hotel School would have to assume that they would have sufficient participation at a later date from students over a number of years. (The regionals aren't set as far in advance as the FF but it's still not the same year.) This is a risk that might be enough to discourage either the HS or the AD or both.

Jordan 04
For those not in the know, what goes into "hosting", and what benefit is derived for the host school, beyond being the nominal "host"?

The biggest one is that if your team is in the tournament, they're automatically placed at the regional that you're hosting rather than potentially having to travel to a regional further away. (I'm not sure whether that was part of what you meant by being the nominal host.)

Josh '99

Jordan 04
For those not in the know, what goes into "hosting", and what benefit is derived for the host school, beyond being the nominal "host"?

The biggest one is that if your team is in the tournament, they're automatically placed at the regional that you're hosting rather than potentially having to travel to a regional further away. (I'm not sure whether that was part of what you meant by being the nominal host.)

True, forgot about that one, but I see that as a coincidental benefit. I meant more a case such as RPI this year for Albany: What hosting duties do they have, and what benefit, if any, do they derive from hosting?

Jordan 04
True, forgot about that one, but I see that as a coincidental benefit. I meant more a case such as RPI this year for Albany: What hosting duties do they have, and what benefit, if any, do they derive from hosting?

I don't really know. I think sometimes documents about that sort of thing make their way online, maybe there's something with that information on the NCAA website?

I assume there is a revenue benefit to the host. You probably also get free advertising for your school during the intermissions, in the programs, and possibly on the ice surface.

Let's set up an outdoor rink in Schoellkopf!

reilly83
Let's set up an outdoor rink in Schoellkopf!

Hey, they've done it in the NHL, they're going it for the Frozen Four, why not in a regional?

reilly83
Let's set up an outdoor rink in Schoellkopf!

Michigan State did it. So did Wisconsin.

[www.metaezra.com]

Why would the Athletics Department be automatically opposed? You'd think we'd have the resources to host. I mean, it's not like we're some crap school like RPI.

Annoying name here
Why would the Athletics Department be automatically opposed? You'd think we'd have the resources to host. I mean, it's not like we're some crap school like RPI.

See: lacrosse, north regional, 2004 (?), Schoellkopf.

Chris '03
I like how they went out of their way to protect no. 1 seeds from having to play at host schools the year Michigan doesn't have a home regional. Wouldn't want poor Michigan to get a taste of its own medicine now would we? Woulda been funny to see an under-.500 Bucky team knock of Michigan at home to earn a FF bid.

Don't they deserve the easiest draw given their overall #1 PWR ranking? They worked all season long to get in position for the overall best draw. The fact that as a non #1 seed in the past they've played at their home as regional host (and had success) is a different issue. Isn't that how it works for everyone?

RatushnyFan

Chris '03
I like how they went out of their way to protect no. 1 seeds from having to play at host schools the year Michigan doesn't have a home regional. Wouldn't want poor Michigan to get a taste of its own medicine now would we? Woulda been funny to see an under-.500 Bucky team knock of Michigan at home to earn a FF bid.

Don't they deserve the easiest draw given their overall #1 PWR ranking? They worked all season long to get in position for the overall best draw. The fact that as a non #1 seed in the past they've played at their home as regional host (and had success) is a different issue. Isn't that how it works for everyone?

Did we get the worst team as the #1 overall seed?

As for "easiest" draw, while Wisconsin has the worst win-loss record, using the PWR it still ends up being the AH/CHA autobids.

DeltaOne81, what do you mean? Were there a lot of problems with hosting that regional? I'm asking because I genuinely don't know.

djk26
DeltaOne81, what do you mean? Were there a lot of problems with hosting that regional? I'm asking because I genuinely don't know.

Yes, there were a ton of problems with hosting the lax regional. The most glaring one was that the scoreboard stopped working for the end of one of the games and they had to keep time manually on the sidelines and yell to the players how much time was left. IIRC, they also ran out of food at the concession stands before it was over.

Jacob '06
Yes, there were a ton of problems with hosting the lax regional. The most glaring one was that the scoreboard stopped working for the end of one of the games and they had to keep time manually on the sidelines and yell to the players how much time was left. IIRC, they also ran out of food at the concession stands before it was over.

The incompetence of Cornell University never ceases to amaze me.

djk26

Jacob '06
Yes, there were a ton of problems with hosting the lax regional. The most glaring one was that the scoreboard stopped working for the end of one of the games and they had to keep time manually on the sidelines and yell to the players how much time was left. IIRC, they also ran out of food at the concession stands before it was over.

The incompetence of Cornell University never ceases to amaze me.

Don't worry. Over time they will lose their ability to amaze as you slip into cynicism. Doesn't take that long either.

KeithK
Don't worry. Over time they will lose their ability to amaze as you slip into cynicism. Doesn't take that long either.

It's already started to happen, Keith. I planned an alumni event in August. It was a great success, and many of the people at Cornell worked hard to make it happen (especially the staff at the Statler.) But my God it was hard to work with some of them in planning events. I got the impression that they wanted to enforce their rules rather than help their customers.

djk26

KeithK
Don't worry. Over time they will lose their ability to amaze as you slip into cynicism. Doesn't take that long either.

It's already started to happen, Keith. I planned an alumni event in August. It was a great success, and many of the people at Cornell worked hard to make it happen (especially the staff at the Statler.) But my God it was hard to work with some of them in planning events. I got the impression that they wanted to enforce their rules rather than help their customers.

Sometimes preserving your ability to do the latter requires doing the former.

On the other hand, Cornell can rest somewhat assured in the generalization that it's mostly the alumni who care the most about their alma mater who are likely to get so upset by it.

Wow, thread drift. (points to self): "It's all your fault!"

Beeeej, I think that it was the attitude of many of the people that "helped" us that turned me off. It was as if, "Well, if you want to have an event here, you need to fill out these 19 forms. Oh, you want help in how to do it? That's not my problem. I just need you to fill out the forms. I'm not actually interested in helping you." Like I said, though, there were many people at CU that DID go out of their way to help, and for that I am grateful.

I guess I should make SOME comment about the Selection Show on this thread. Ok, here it is: I predict that the final will be Princeton vs. Michigan. Michigan will win 7-1, and their fans, having learned snark from the Lynah Faithful, will chant, "Hobey hates you." I wish I had actually done that at a Princeton game.

Jacob '06

djk26
DeltaOne81, what do you mean? Were there a lot of problems with hosting that regional? I'm asking because I genuinely don't know.

Yes, there were a ton of problems with hosting the lax regional. The most glaring one was that the scoreboard stopped working for the end of one of the games and they had to keep time manually on the sidelines and yell to the players how much time was left. IIRC, they also ran out of food at the concession stands before it was over.

The scoreboard was bad enough, but...

It was a very hot day (80+?), and they didn't just run out of food, they ran out of all water and all drinks. And not just before they end, it was before the end of the first (of two) games! And even while they had it, the lines at the few concessions that were manned were probably 50 people deep at all times.

You had Cornell in one game, and Syracuse in the other. To say the least, you could've expected a crowd.

I walked down to smoothie hut to get a cool drink between games (bubble tea I think , or maybe a smoothie, I dunno). But those who didn't know the area were not as lucky.

After that, I wouldn't blame the NCAA if they never wanted to let the Cornell AD (Dept, not Director - I won't make it personal) within 500 feet of another regional. Although some idea like making it a project run by the hotel school might be unique enough to break through that.

DeltaOne81
After that, I wouldn't blame the NCAA if they never wanted to let the Cornell AD (Dept, not Director - I won't make it personal) within 500 feet of another regional.

The 2008 NCAA lacrosse regionals will be held at Schoellkopf on May 18.

Al DeFlorio
The 2008 NCAA lacrosse regionals will be held at Schoellkopf on May 18.

Is Cornell hosting?

Perfect smiley for it though Al. If they don't run out of popcorn.

Lets hope our alma mater has learned and can redeem themselves. It'd be good for the school to be a player and get a defacto home game for some of these things, even if its not hockey. Although who knows, a good experience hosting lax may encourage them to consider making a hockey bid with Albany or Scranton (neat idea, btw) - can't hurt anyway.

DeltaOne81

Al DeFlorio
The 2008 NCAA lacrosse regionals will be held at Schoellkopf on May 18.

Is Cornell hosting?

Perfect smiley for it though Al. If they don't run out of popcorn.

Lets hope our alma mater has learned and can redeem themselves. It'd be good for the school to be a player and get a defacto home game for some of these things, even if its not hockey. Although who knows, a good experience hosting lax may encourage them to consider making a hockey bid with Albany or Scranton (neat idea, btw) - can't hurt anyway.

Best to bring a sack lunch, Fred, and maybe a .

Surgeon's General Warning: Eating dancing bananas may be hazardous to your health.

I'd love it if Wilkes-Barre could hold a regional, but it only seats about 8,000 for hockey. I don't think that's big enough for the NC$$.

Jeff Hopkins '82
I'd love it if Wilkes-Barre could hold a regional, but it only seats about 8,000 for hockey. I don't think that's big enough for the NC$$.

The new O2 World in Berlin is going to seat 17,000. Maybe we can have a Northeast Regional here.

Jeff Hopkins '82
I'd love it if Wilkes-Barre could hold a regional, but it only seats about 8,000 for hockey. I don't think that's big enough for the NC$$.

Arena at Harbor yard for next year (and 2011) is only 8500. Same with the Mullins Center (UMass-Amherst) that held a regional a couple years ago.

They do tend to prefer venues in the mid-teens, but they haven't shown any refusal to drop to 8K or so.

DeltaOne81

Jeff Hopkins '82
I'd love it if Wilkes-Barre could hold a regional, but it only seats about 8,000 for hockey. I don't think that's big enough for the NC$$.

Arena at Harbor yard for next year (and 2011) is only 8500. Same with the Mullins Center (UMass-Amherst) that held a regional a couple years ago.

They do tend to prefer venues in the mid-teens, but they haven't shown any refusal to drop to 8K or so.

I was under the impression that the regionals generally don't sell out anyway. Or have things changed in the last few years without me noticing?

KeithK

DeltaOne81

Jeff Hopkins '82
I'd love it if Wilkes-Barre could hold a regional, but it only seats about 8,000 for hockey. I don't think that's big enough for the NC$$.

Arena at Harbor yard for next year (and 2011) is only 8500. Same with the Mullins Center (UMass-Amherst) that held a regional a couple years ago.

They do tend to prefer venues in the mid-teens, but they haven't shown any refusal to drop to 8K or so.

I was under the impression that the regionals generally don't sell out anyway. Or have things changed in the last few years without me noticing?

There weren't too many empty seats in 2006 in Green Bay. I think the regionals held in the west on (or very near) a campus with the host team in it do sellout.

Rita

KeithK

DeltaOne81

Jeff Hopkins '82
I'd love it if Wilkes-Barre could hold a regional, but it only seats about 8,000 for hockey. I don't think that's big enough for the NC$$.

Arena at Harbor yard for next year (and 2011) is only 8500. Same with the Mullins Center (UMass-Amherst) that held a regional a couple years ago.

They do tend to prefer venues in the mid-teens, but they haven't shown any refusal to drop to 8K or so.

I was under the impression that the regionals generally don't sell out anyway. Or have things changed in the last few years without me noticing?

There weren't too many empty seats in 2006 in Green Bay. I think the regionals held in the west on (or very near) a campus with the host team in it do sellout.

That sounds familiar. But attendance at eastern regionals is more relevant to a Cornell or SWB bid.

Rita

KeithK
I was under the impression that the regionals generally don't sell out anyway. Or have things changed in the last few years without me noticing?

There weren't too many empty seats in 2006 in Green Bay. I think the regionals held in the west on (or very near) a campus with the host team in it do sellout.

My recollection is that Day 2 of Worcester in 2002 and both days of Providence in 2003 were awfully close to sold out, if not actually sold out. Not everybody attends both games any given day, which could create a different impression.

Beeeej

Rita

KeithK
I was under the impression that the regionals generally don't sell out anyway. Or have things changed in the last few years without me noticing?

There weren't too many empty seats in 2006 in Green Bay. I think the regionals held in the west on (or very near) a campus with the host team in it do sellout.

My recollection is that Day 2 of Worcester in 2002 and both days of Providence in 2003 were awfully close to sold out, if not actually sold out. Not everybody attends both games any given day, which could create a different impression.

2003 due in part to BC making it to the regional finals v. Cornell and 2002 BU was in the Worcester regional final. 2002 was the last year of the 12 team tourney with the top 4 teams getting the first round bye (thank goodness).

Yost is also in the mid 6000s in capacity and has hosted regionals recently. Assuming UM gets in, that'll always sell out.

It seems like the minimum for a non-campus arena in now 10,000. Bridgeport, Green Bay, and Grand Rapids are each almost exactly that amount.

Beeeej

My recollection is that Day 2 of Worcester in 2002 and both days of Providence in 2003 were awfully close to sold out, if not actually sold out. Not everybody attends both games any given day, which could create a different impression.

Providence was only packed in our quarter of the ice. I'd guess they were at about 2/3 of the 11,000 hockey capacity. In Minny and Green Bay, you'd be hard pressed to find an empty seat, at least while the Minnesota and Wisconsin games were being played. A question for a place like Scranton is how well would they draw if Cornell wasn't in it. Unlike Providence, Worcester and Albany, is it too remote from college hockey interests to attract a lot of casual college hockey fans?

KeithK
I don't think geography is a requirement when it comes to hosting. One of the Alaska schools "hosted" the Anaheim FF a few years back. Based on that standard, we could host in Philadelphia or DC.

Based on that standard, WE could have hosted in Anaheim.

pat

KeithK
I don't think geography is a requirement when it comes to hosting. One of the Alaska schools "hosted" the Anaheim FF a few years back. Based on that standard, we could host in Philadelphia or DC.

Based on that standard, WE could have hosted in Anaheim.

Sure, but the further away the hosting school is from the venue, the more difficult it is to coordinate things, and (for regionals) the less the benefit of automatic placement.

Josh '99

pat

KeithK
I don't think geography is a requirement when it comes to hosting. One of the Alaska schools "hosted" the Anaheim FF a few years back. Based on that standard, we could host in Philadelphia or DC.

Based on that standard, WE could have hosted in Anaheim.

Sure, but the further away the hosting school is from the venue, the more difficult it is to coordinate things, and (for regionals) the less the benefit of automatic placement.

Well, there's about zero chance they'll hold a regional in a non-traditional site like Anaheim, so placement isn't really an issue.

The other thing is Albany, Bridgeport and Worcester are locked in for several years. We're looking at 2012 or later here.

While we're dreaming, thay could always hold a regional at the Spectrum in Philly. That is, if they don't knock it down to build a shopping mall.

FYI, I just wrote an article over at CHN, estimating the each team's chances to win various numbers of games in the NCAAs using KRACH: [www.collegehockeynews.com]

jtwcornell91
FYI, I just wrote an article over at CHN, estimating the each team's chances to win various numbers of games in the NCAAs using KRACH: [www.collegehockeynews.com]

It's strange - the math looks right, but I ran it for the years 2000 - 2007 and it gives Harvard a nonzero number. You might want to tinker.

I'm afraid you have slipped up in the second round (and perhaps later). Your numbers violate unitarity. Taking the numbers at face value, we only have a 72.272% chance of having any team win four games.

For everyone else: If we add up the percentages after one round, the grand total should be 800% because eight teams win at least one game. That's good. If we add up the percentages for winning two games, the total should be 400% because four teams win at least two games. In your table the total is 374%. With each region the total should be 100%, but the numbers vary from 89.5 to 96.2.

Edit: I see that another Dave has made the same observation on the CHN comments.

Re-edit: I disagree with a few of Dave, Madison's numbers at the one or two tenths of a percent level, but I won't claim perfection.

Yep, there was a bug in how opponents for later rounds were determined, related to the different ways Perl and PHP handle the modulus function (and the fact that I only checked the results for teams not impacted by that problem). It's been fixed now, and the probabilities add up to 100% within roundoff error.

jtwcornell91
FYI, I just wrote an article over at CHN, estimating the each team's chances to win various numbers of games in the NCAAs using KRACH: [www.collegehockeynews.com]

I like the concept and I love the hard work that you put into this project, yet three of the games yesterday were good arguments for playing (and watching) the games rather than worrying about who should win.

My conclusion is that there isn't a better game to watch than college hockey. As a corollary, I propose that there isn't a better game for which to run that simulation - if only because we appreciate it as fans.

David Harding
I'm afraid you have slipped up in the second round (and perhaps later). Your numbers violate unitarity. Taking the numbers at face value, we only have a 72.272% chance of having any team win four games.

Funny. I noticed that but assumed that I was simply wrong to assume that the numbers should add up to 100%. Mental note: gain more confidence in math/logic, even around engineers.