Recruiting

Is anyone else concerned about how this year's recruiting is going? By this time last year (by January, actually), we had this year's freshman class pretty much lined up. This year, we only have four recruits, but seven seniors are graduating. Furthermore, while the Devin twins and Patrick Kennedy seem solid, Johnston appears to be a bit of a project. The Devins committed last spring, so this year's total crop is only three recruits thus far.

Of course signing an A-ranked player like Riley Nash would be a coup and turn things around, but even here rumors are we're behind Denver on his list. One would think we'd have the inside track, with his brother already playing for Cornell. The only thing that might give us hope is that his failure to commit thus far might be because he's waiting to see if his "need based" financial aid package makes Cornell competitive with one of the scholarship schools. Even with Nash, it's not clear that the incoming class is an upgrade from the departing one.

Do others share my pessimism? Does anyone have a convincing case for being more optimistic (please!)?

They aren't losing a ton though I still expect at least one more defenseman and another forward as well. If Nash chooses UND or Denver then I'm sure Cornell will sign someone soon after. Plenty of good players have been signed this late in the season but again, Cornell is returning a lot next season so there isn't as much to replace as usual.

That Cornell still has a shot at Nash is cause for optimism. North Dakota just picked up another forward, Frattin, out of Alberta, so they may be out.

It looks like 1 more forward and 1-2 on defense (probably depending on how comfortable the staff is with Johnston). Hopefully, things will get clearer soon.

Swampy
Furthermore, while the Devin twins and Patrick Kennedy seem solid, Johnston appears to be a bit of a project. The Devins committed last spring, so this year's total crop is only three recruits thus far.

Joe Devin's stats don't look that great to me. [bchl.bc.ca]

Any word on whether we may be losing more underclassmen such as Sawada and Greening?

ursusminor

Swampy
Furthermore, while the Devin twins and Patrick Kennedy seem solid, Johnston appears to be a bit of a project. The Devins committed last spring, so this year's total crop is only three recruits thus far.

Joe Devin's stats don't look that great to me. [bchl.bc.ca]

Tangent: One of the players on Nanaimo's roster is Joe Bitz - a relative of Byron? (Doesn't seem like all that common a name, and Byron's page on the Cornell Athletics website says he has younger siblings.)

fullofgas
Any word on whether we may be losing more underclassmen such as Sawada and Greening?

I wouldn't think so. They don't seem to be on the radar the way Sasha and Hynes were.

Josh '99
[Tangent: One of the players on Nanaimo's roster is Joe Bitz - a relative of Byron? (Doesn't seem like all that common a name, and Byron's page on the Cornell Athletics website says he has younger siblings.)

I believe it is Byron's brother...they're both from the same town in Saskatchewan. Don't know what his recruiting status is though...

Welcome to a year-and-a-half ago Hermo.

[elf.elynah.com]

hockeysfuture.com did report that there was an early flight risk for Ray Swada over the summer.

I think the most troubling thing about Cornell's recruiting this year is that they have lost a lot of recruiting battles that they were winning in year's past.

Cornell does not lose a ton this year, but regardless, its recruiting class right now is not even in the Top 5 in the ECAC.

Cornell will be okay next year, but I guarantee you down the road, this class (as it now stands) will come back to haunt them....much like Harvard's current senior class (very weak) is cauisng them pain.

bothman
I think the most troubling thing about Cornell's recruiting this year is that they have lost a lot of recruiting battles that they were winning in year's past.

Cornell does not lose a ton this year, but regardless, its recruiting class right now is not even in the Top 5 in the ECAC.

Cornell will be okay next year, but I guarantee you down the road, this class (as it now stands) will come back to haunt them....much like Harvard's current senior class (very weak) is cauisng them pain.

In the long term, the issue is not whether a single recruiting class is weak or strong. Some classes are better than others - it happens. The question is why you're losing the recruiting battles. I don't have any answer to that but hopefully it's as simple as bad luck.

Is Harvard's senior class this year really all that bad? Reese, Maki, and Duuuuu are all solid players and Tobe did well in goal on Saturday.

I'd really like to see a couple more good recruits (defensemen?) commit to Cornell for next year.

ebilmes
Is Harvard's senior class this year really all that bad? Reese, Maki, and Duuuuu are all solid players and Tobe did well in goal on Saturday.

IMO it's a pretty talented class--I would argue it is more talented than the class they graduated last year.

Harvard's senior class is anemic. Reese has been great and so much of what he does doesn't show up in the box score, but the others have disappointed.

Maki and Du have been better in the 2nd half, but they also have a lot of points because they get a lot of oppty on the PP which has been very good. If you watch Du closely in a game, he just hasn't been the player this year that he has been in year's past. His mind seems elsewhere.

In my opinion, Harvard has a very solid recruiting class next year in the ECAC with Biega, McCollem, and Huxley all having the potential to be impact players. Dartmouth's class looks to be very good as well and what's real impressive are the inroads they've been able to make in Minnesota.

For 2008, Harvard beat out Cornell for both Kroshus and Killorn (BC, BU, UNH all wanted this kid). Colbourne, Grimshaw, Hegarty all will be high on the radar for 2008.

bothman
Cornell will be okay next year, but I guarantee you down the road, this class (as it now stands) will come back to haunt them

That's a pretty strong prediction. And we probably won't be able to see if it comes true. I'd be shocked if Cornell doesn't add at least another forward and defenseman.

Sometimes it's a modest class that leads a team to success. Look at Cornell's 2004-2005 seniors--Downs, Cook, Varteressian, Knoepfli, Iggulden. Those guys weren't exactly touted as world beaters coming in. But, they developed over time and did all of the little things that made the 04-05 team so good.

Regarding the original question, I'm not that concerned with next year's incoming class. As Ari mentioned, we aren't really losing that much. Mike Devin and Patrick Kennedy look to be the highlights of the class so far.

I also think landing Nash would not only instantly make the incoming class an upgrade over the departing class, but also be the biggest recruiting coup for the team in recent memory. Salmon Arm's coach says Riley is better now than Travis Zajac (played for Salmon Arm) was at the same age. That is a huge compliment. He has improved dramatically over the course of the season and has been tearing up the BCHL the last couple of months. I don't think it's unrealistic to think that if Riley committed to Cornell he could be the team's best player the moment he steps on the ice.

bothman
For 2008, Harvard beat out Cornell for both Kroshus and Killorn (BC, BU, UNH all wanted this kid)

Kroshus is a good example of losing out on a battle we typically win, as we tend to recruit well in western Canada. I don't consider Killorn a good example. Cornell has been and will always be the underdog when they go after a New England prep kid against the likes of the Hockey East powerhouses and Harvard.

Agreed, but this is Killorn's first year at Deerfield and he is Canadien (from Montreal) so it's not like he's been at prep school from Day 1.

Interesting that with the Biega's, Richter, and now Kroshus & Killorn, Harvard is starting to rekindle its Canadien pipeline to an extent - something that has been dormant for too long.

The prep school track is still good, but it is not what it once was during the 1980s and there is a direct correlation between the fall of the Prep League and Harvard's fall from being feared year in and year out on the national scene.

I agree with you on Nash. Would be a HUGE coup for Cornell...a real difference maker.

I think the strenght of a team really comes down to the strength of its upperclassmen (Junuiors and Seniors). When you get freshman and sophmores that become high impact guys (Brandon Wong for example) that gives you the needed depth you need for a serious run.

When was the last time Cornell and Harvard had a real impact freshman? Someone who scored 30 points? I could make an argument that Alex Biega could be considered an imapct guy as a defenseman based on his play and #'s, but I would not say Doug Rogers, Tony Romano, Blake Gallagher, etc are impact guys.

bothman
When was the last time Cornell and Harvard had a real impact freshman? Someone who scored 30 points?

For Cornell, that's easy. Kyle Knopp (11G, 19A) during the 95-96 campaign.

We can all be routing for a win in that recruiting battle, but when I think of recruiting classes, they are framed around both signing year and expected graduation date... I am glad for any Cornell players that are able to jump early, but also nostalgic for the days when college players stayed 4 years and got a degree. I am sure the coaching staff is fighting to get Riley Nash, but every time you grab an "impact player" you have the potential to be short at a position in just a year or two (like dealing with the more typical 4 year cycle and other problems (injuries,grades,etc) isnt hard enough. my 2 bits(z)

If Riley Nash is that good, I have a hard time believing he'll come here, Brendon or no Brendon.

[/pessimism]

Josh '99
If Riley Nash is that good, I have a hard time believing he'll come here, Brendon or no Brendon.

[/pessimism]

We never used to be even in the picture for these type of players. The very fact that we are could indicate that things we used to take for granted, like never getting a true blue chipper, may be changing. Cornell now has 8 strong years in the books, Schafer has an extension, Lynah has new player facilities. Things are moving in a very positive direction.

Josh '99
If Riley Nash is that good, I have a hard time believing he'll come here, Brendon or no Brendon. [/pessimism]

If he wants to play college hockey I don't see any reason why Cornell wouldn't be a school that he would consider. I could see it if he were from someplace where we had a recruiting disadvantage but BC may as well be our home turf. I'm not saying we should be optimistic, necessarily, but there are enough reasons that we should be much less pessimistic now than we've been in the past.

Fingers crossed...

How talented is Riley Nash anyway? Word of mouth is terrific, but NHL Central Scouting ranks him 99, which suggests he's good but hardly great.

rstott
How talented is Riley Nash anyway? Word of mouth is terrific, but NHL Central Scouting ranks him 99, which suggests he's good but hardly great.

I think he'll end up going higher than 99. He's a mid-to-late 89 birthdate, so he's young. He's 11th in scoring in the BCHL, the #1 rookie by a wide margin (the next rookie is 29th). Almost everyone ahead of him in scoring is 1-3 years older than he is (except Kyle Turris, the phenom headed to Wisconsin next year). He's the leading scorer on his team.

I still don't hold out a ton of hope for him (though there is a really positive rumor going around that UND is out of the race and Cornell is back in the hunt and maybe even ahead of DU), but he would instantly make this one of the best recruiting classes in the ECAC (even if it is small). Joe Devin is hard to read, he's been in and out of the lineup with injuries and has taken longer to adapt to the higher level of play in Jr. A. I think both Mike Devin and Patrick Kennedy will be able to contribute right away.

Also, bothman's been talking a lot about Harvard recruiting in this thread. The one thing Harvard is missing, and we've got locked down, is a goalie of the future. Garman came in to Nanaimo and has outplayed former Cornell target and DU recruit Marc Cheverie. Assuming he comes back from injury playing at the level he had been, I think he'll be Nanaimo's go-to goalie for the playoffs.

When's the last time a team won a national title that didn't have or recruit players that were capable of leaving early?

Probably back to a time when college players played Olympic hockey so that gave them reason to stick around.

If you want to win it all, you have to be going after Phil Kessel, Kyle Turris and other high impact guys.

pfibiger

rstott
Also, bothman's been talking a lot about Harvard recruiting in this thread. The one thing Harvard is missing, and we've got locked down, is a goalie of the future. Garman came in to Nanaimo and has outplayed former Cornell target and DU recruit Marc Cheverie. Assuming he comes back from injury playing at the level he had been, I think he'll be Nanaimo's go-to goalie for the playoffs.

I thought that was Davenport?

You are absolutely right. Harvard lost Bachman to CC and then lost Muse to BC. Goalie is the most important position on the ice and Donato has not delivered in that category. Richter has had some good games, but like Davenport and Srivens, has not played consistently enough to get the goalie of the future tag. I am far from sold.

bothman
When's the last time a team won a national title that didn't have or recruit players that were capable of leaving early?

Without researching it, off hand I'd say the Lake State teams., which were built much in the style of (and inspired) Schafer 1.0 -- suffocating, total team defense, a great backstop, and the occasional bright light scorer. Because goalies and defensemen take longer to develop, it was more likely that those stars stayed all four years.

As the game opens up (and as we adopt Schafer 2.0), an even greater premium will be placed on skill guys -- the guys more likely to get the big bonus checks to jump.

Cornell95
We can all be routing for a win in that recruiting battle, but when I think of recruiting classes, they are framed around both signing year and expected graduation date... I am glad for any Cornell players that are able to jump early, but also nostalgic for the days when college players stayed 4 years and got a degree. I am sure the coaching staff is fighting to get Riley Nash, but every time you grab an "impact player" you have the potential to be short at a position in just a year or two (like dealing with the more typical 4 year cycle and other problems (injuries,grades,etc) isnt hard enough. my 2 bits(z)

I think when you go after a true blue chip player you have to assume that he will not stay for 4 years. Losing a player after two years to the pros doesn't hurt as much when the recruiting strategy plans for this. What hurts is when a guy tells you he's staying and then turns around and signs last minute.

Trotsky
Without researching it, off hand I'd say the Lake State teams., which were built much in the style of (and inspired) Schafer 1.0 -- suffocating, total team defense, a great backstop, and the occasional bright light scorer. Because goalies and defensemen take longer to develop, it was more likely that those stars stayed all four years.

As the game opens up (and as we adopt Schafer 2.0), an even greater premium will be placed on skill guys -- the guys more likely to get the big bonus checks to jump.

Brian Rolston and Doug Weight both left LSSU after two years and Bates Battaglia left after three.

Those teams were really good. Jeff Jackson is an unbelievable coach and recruiter if he was able to make Lake Superior State University a National Champion in anything. Now he's at Notre Dame and his impact has been almost immediate.

KeithK
I think when you go after a true blue chip player you have to assume that he will not stay for 4 years. Losing a player after two years to the pros doesn't hurt as much when the recruiting strategy plans for this. What hurts is when a guy tells you he's staying and then turns around and signs last minute.

I definitely agree with you but there are certain types of players who I'd consider to be blue chip and will stay at their respective school for four years generally because lack of size. Tyler Burton immediately comes to mind. He was a very big recruit. St. Louis and Perrin are other good examples of big recruits who were very productive for four years. I guess it depends on how you define blue chip player but I consider those guys as blue chippers. It is definitely more the exception than the rule though.

[siouxsports.com]

redhair34
http://siouxsports.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8046

From the link posted above:
"Not here at UND we love our team, players, & school and it shows. If the Fighting Sioux played a regional semi-final in a Subsaharan Africa war zone you can bet that Sioux fans would still be there."

I can see it now, an olympic sheet of ice in sub-Sahara Africa and a bracket with Cornell, UND, the gophers and another team that has broken our hearts before (but it can't be Wisconsin, that would be 3 WHCA teams ).

I'll leave it to others to comment on "siouxnami's" slamming of the Cornell hockey program.

Rita
I'll leave it to others to comment on "siouxnami's" slamming of the Cornell hockey program.

I'm just amused that one fan felt so insecure about NoDak's academics that he had to quote articles stating how good the school is in certain areas. Then again, maybe I should just be glad that someone out west remembers that, in the term "college hockey", "college" comes first.

Didn't Reggie Bush just get USC in trouble (again) by contacting the top football recruit in the country? Telling Nash to contact Zajac...not smart.

Also, it may just be me, but I don't think the best way to get a kid to like your school is to bash other schools (especially the one that his brother goes to).

And...this may just be me, but if you are trying to say "you are" in a contraction, it is you're...not just your.

Dear Riley Nash,

If you want a fanbase that exists outside the month of March, don't choose NoDak.

Sincerely,
Jesus McBuddha

If you've seen other western boards, that was tame. Look at Denver's excellent forum this week as they prepare for CC -- it's brutal.

Nobody's bothering to slam the Merrimack hockey program, if you catch my meaning.

johnny923
Didn't Reggie Bush just get USC in trouble (again) by contacting the top football recruit in the country? Telling Nash to contact Zajac...not smart.

Also, it may just be me, but I don't think the best way to get a kid to like your school is to bash other schools (especially the one that his brother goes to).

And...this may just be me, but if you are trying to say "you are" in a contraction, it is you're...not just your.

As I understand it, it's ok for the recruit to call somebody associated with the team. The calls going the other way are the ones that are usually restricted.

Trotsky
If you've seen other western boards, that was tame.

Yup. These folks are enlightened compared to those who frequent GPL.

Rita

redhair34
http://siouxsports.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8046

I can see it now, an olympic sheet of ice in sub-Sahara Africa and a bracket with Cornell, UND, the gophers and another team that has broken our hearts before (but it can't be Wisconsin, that would be 3 WHCA teams ).

Under those conditions, the fourth team in the regional is from the University of Subsaharan Africa.

Will
I'm just amused that one fan felt so insecure about NoDak's academics that he had to quote articles stating how good the school is in certain areas.

I wouldn't say that he was insecure, I'd say he was embarrassed that someone would so casually dismiss UND as a University when making the pitch - particularly when the recruit has already shown interest in academically elite schools.

Think about the likely reaction here if we found out that a recruit was thinking about Harvard or Yale over Cornell - for engineering. I think that post is very similar to what a dozen people would post here simultaneously.

I know if I was a recruit, this "siouxnami" character would scare me away. It seems pretty childish and desperate (as redhair said) that a fan could even think this would work. Then again, I'm forgetting what kind of fans we are talking about here. Did you check and make sure this wasn't the "Sioux Hockey forum for Kids"?

Will

Rita
I'll leave it to others to comment on "siouxnami's" slamming of the Cornell hockey program.

I'm just amused that one fan felt so insecure about NoDak's academics that he had to quote articles stating how good the school is in certain areas. Then again, maybe I should just be glad that someone out west remembers that, in the term "college hockey", "college" comes first.

And I'm amused that the only "famous" alumnus whose name I recognize is Ralph Englestead.

I don't think there was much slamming going on there; it sounds more like a generic anti-east sentiment and a popular one at that, for good reason. Eastern programs haven't had the better programs in this decade and when comparing anyone's facilities to North Dakota, North Dakota will always win. Siouxnami is just starting a thread about recruiting Riley Nash.

The only person that scares me on that message board is "Big A HG,"
who apparently actually sent a message to Riley.

Liz '05
The only person that scares me on that message board is "Big A HG,"
who apparently actually sent a message to Riley.

I believe if Big A is UND grad, season ticket holder, or booster, and the spirit of the contact is to influence RN's decision that might be an NCAA violation.

[cornellbigred.cstv.com]