Thoughts of BU-CU & Beyond

Some thoughts on the weekend sweep.

First: WOW. Never in my wildest could I have expected this.

Second: I did not see the third period at Dartmouth, but Sunday's first period was the best I've seen in a long time. I was impressed that they came out that well after yesterdays win. It speaks well for the coaching.

Third:Sometimes even the best players try too hard. On the shorthanded goal, Murray was the culprit. He was trying too hard on the blueline to get into a scoring position. When they scored he was very visibly angry with himself. However, although it eliminated a shut-out, there was no better a time to learn from a mistake.

Fourth: I and some others around me, including a hockey parent, could not believe how often BU would take cheap shots. I never thought I'd see them act like Brown.

Finally: Will we get to hear, except those of you who might be there, about the exploits of our other goalies next weekend? After all, if LeNevue won't be around for Florida, and I assume the North Country trip, shouldn't they get some game experience?

And doubley finally:I already told him, but for those who can't hear him, and I hope those who can agree, Adam is doing a great job on the broadcasts and pregame show. I particularly like his coaches' interviews in the pregame. He asks some good questions about the game from each of them.

Jim Hyla '67 wrote:

Finally: Will we get to hear, except those of you who might be there, about the exploits of our other goalies next weekend? After all, if LeNevue won't be around for Florida, and I assume the North Country trip, shouldn't they get some game experience?

Is it definite that Lenny will be playing for the Canadian team or is he still contemplating it?

From what I understand, Lenny will be going to Nova Scotia shortly to participate in some pre- championship practices and red/ white scrimmages. After this, the roster is decided and those involved participate in the tourney a week or so later - am not 100% certain about this tho.

Well played, well, coached, a great weekend up and down the roster!


Favorite fan moment of the weekend had to be at the end of Sunday's game when the Faithful began chanting "BC Rejects. . ." (note: This did NOT sit well with coach Parker and his boys, as many of them glared into the student sections). As much as Coach Parker would never admit, Lynah held true to its roots as one of (if not the) most difficult place for a visiting team to play college hockey. The atmosphere definitely played a role in the outcome of both games helping our guys and getting in the heads of the BU boys.


Now it's off to Kalamazoo to kick some Bronco A#$!

Ben:

BC rejects (shudder)? Wow, that's harsh.

Maybe Kevin Bacon in "Diner" was right about you guys after all.

I'm sure Coach Parker would be the first to admit that Lynah is a very tough place to play. As far as hostile arenas, when Maine is on a roll up at Alfond, that is another very tough place to play.

Jim Hyla wrote:
[Q]Finally: Will we get to hear, except those of you who might be there, about the exploits of our other goalies next weekend? After all, if LeNevue won't be around for Florida, and I assume the North Country trip, shouldn't they get some game experience? [/Q]

I posted this (more or less) on another thread, but it is more fitting here (in a live thread):

If Schafer wants to rest Lenny before the Maine game, I'll understand. However, I don't agree that we need to give anyone any ice time before the Maine game. The Estero tournament is nice, but it is also a good opportunity to give one of the backups some ice time in case Lenny can't play an ECAC game (heaven forbid). We certainly don't need to field anything but our best team at any time until we have to. Let Estero be where they get experience for the North Country trip.

Boy, am I ever glad that I made the trip up this weekend! BU came out in the first game with a lot of pep and I thought that Cornell was back on their heels (BU having two quick power plays didn't help) but when Cornell scored their first goal they seemed to come alive. BU never again controlled the play, Saturday or Sunday. Going into Sunday I was nervous, figuring that Parker might have seen something, made an adjustment, and have his team exploit some weakness --but Cornell played Sunday even better than Saturday. Cornell's smart play and position displine was tremendous --Schafer was not out-coached by the Parker at all. To keep some perspective though, this was not the BU of the mid nineties --beating them doesn't make Cornell king of the hill. Nonetheless, it was a great performance against the Eastern team that for the last decade (at least in my mind) all other Eastern teams have been measured by.

Mark, thanks for your kind words on the other thread. I'll echo Felix's comment with this: my trip to Walter Brown Arena last year was one of the most pleasant experiences I've had as far as interacting with the opposition's fans; I had a few conversations with BU fans that were enjoyable and pleasant.

BTW, Age, I saw your "COWBLGUY" license plate first hand. I parked behind your car to make a quick run into the Turk Bro.'s store. I can only assume that you get asked by strangers all the time about it.

BTW#2, USCHO.com has on the front page a nice blurb (and elynah.com photo) about Cornell's performance this weekend.

Ben '03 wrote:

Favorite fan moment of the weekend had to be at the end of Sunday's game when the Faithful began chanting "BC Rejects. . ." (note: This did NOT sit well with coach Parker and his boys, as many of them glared into the student sections).

I noticed that too. I have to imagine our guys would have the same reaction to that chant if you were to substitute a different Boston-area school.

Mark, Thank you for speaking so highly of our program. I would love to see this series become what it once was, it can only make for great memories.

The purpose of that cheer never intended to mean what it was saying, it was more-or-less to get in the heads of your guys. Yes, it's harsh. . .that's
the point. You have to understand that's why we're there and that's why Lynah is what it is. As far as I'm concerned it's all in good fun and what
goes on in the rink stays there (until we meet again. . . )

Coach Parker has been doing this way too long to count his boys out this early in the season. They will get it together and they will be fighting atop
HEA come the end of the season. With a little luck on both sides of the table maybe we'll meet up again in March(with the same outcome)???
Good luck on the rest of your season.

p.s. Beat Maine!

My brother is in the pep band at Maine and I have watched them play since the 80s. Alfond is bigger than Lynah but that's it. Their cheers are unoriginal and the student section is only a quarter of the attendees.

The Faithful were very impressive this weekend; much better numbers than expected Saturday, and a number of original cheers. (Most of them directed at one player, but still...)

Josh Herman '99 wrote:

I have to imagine our guys would have the same reaction to that chant if you were to substitute a different Boston-area school.

Although RIP seem to be the only ones that do that, and we can always come back with "Clarkson Rejects" )

Here's a thought of a different sort: Why aren't more hockey games held on Sat and Sun afternoon like this past weekend's games with BU? Personally, this would be a real boon; I live about 4hrs from Ithaca and to catch a weekend of games at the usual game times means taking a half day off of work on Fridays. With Sat-Sun afternoon games, no such problem, plus it only requires one hotel night versus two needed for the Fri-Sat evening games. Unfortunately for me, it appears my convenience doesn't carry much sway with the college hockey powers that be. But seriously, there seems to be some broader benefits: game times (I think) would be more attractive to both students (not an issue at Cornell, but other schools) and parents with kids and it minimizes the amount of classroom time the student-athletes have to miss for road games. Just a thought that popped in my head during the 4 hour drive back from Ithaca this past Sunday...

I don't think students would prefer afternoon games at all. First of all, most people in the 18-21 demographic are barely conscious at 3PM on a weekend. Plus you would lose the feeling (important, I would argue, to even some non-facetimer Faithful) that an evening at Lynah is an important weekend social event.

On a more practical note, Saturday afternoons early in the season would conflict with football games. I also doubt that teams would really want to travel on Sundays with any regularity. A Saturday-Sunday schedule would probably make it a lot harder for the student-athletes to attend, and prepare for, classes on both Friday and Monday.

Plus a lot of people who can be in the stands in the evening are working in the afternoons. Many people do work on weekends.

I seem to recall that BU was one of the few schools that has a winning record against Cornell.

2 questions:
1) What is the record?
2) What other teams have a winning record against us?


Thanks.

According to my database (which is close to Cornell's official tally, and honestly might be more accurate), here are our losing records as of today:

Army, 14-15-1
Bowdoin, 0-2-0
Bowling Green, 1-4-0
Clarkson, 39-43-8
Colby, 0-1-0
Ferris State, 1-2-0
Hamilton, 13-14-0
Lake Superior State, 0-2-0
Miami, 1-2-0
Michigan, 2-3-1
Michigan State, 1-2-0
Minnesota, 0-1-0
North Dakota, 1-3-0
Northern Michigan, 2-3-0
Norwich, 0-2-0
Notre Dame, 0-3-0
Ontario Agriculture College, 0-1-0
Providence, 8-9-1
Sacred Heart, 0-1-0
Williams, 1-12-0
Wisconsin, 2-3-0

vs BU: 22-17-1

Alltime record: 821-553-73

Actually, BU had a losing record against us even before the current three-game winning streak. Going into last year's series we were 20-15-1 (including one forfeit win for Cornell which had been won by BU on the ice--see last year's T-shirt discussion ), and we're 3-1-0 since then. So Cornell is now 23-16-1 lifetime vs BU.

Greg, I think you're counting the forfeit win on December 16, 1972 as a Cornell loss.

If that was the 0-9 (following Age's convention ) game, it's pretty hard to view it as a win. Especially if you watched it, as I did, on Boston public television.

Seems to me we started out something like 10-0-1 against BU until the consolation loss in the 1971 ECACs.

Greg wrote:

Sacred Heart, 0-1-0

Dammit Greg, I thought there was a consensus to never mention that game again!

Ontario Agriculture College???

That's ok, our Ag school can beat up their Ag school!!

Do teams generally pack it up after the Saturday night game and head straight home? I guess I was just assuming without really thinking about it that the teams wouldn't travel home until Sunday, but now that I do think about it that is probably incorrect.

Greg, I worked four years at two large NYC law firms (thankfully no more), so I know all about working on weekends.

Oh well, I guess my Sat-Sun afternoon idea just isn't going to take hold but I can hope that this Cornell-BU arrangement continues for a couple more years...

The forfeit: yes. Now corrected in my records. Thanks.

Team travel: ordinarily teams travel home right after the Saturday night game. Infrequently, teams stay over the second night to ride out dangerous weather.

The series: I haven't heard whether there are any plans to continue it, but I think it would be *great* to have home-and-home pairs with the Terriers forever, and I hope Coaches Schafer and Parker can make it happen.

Does anyone know exactly what process determines what non-conference games we will play?

I think every game is important if we ever hope to crack the top 6 in the polls - something we havn't seen despite the wins against BU and Harvard. It would be nice to get a better NCAA seeding than we have in years past. I really don't feel that the selection committee has any respect for the ECAC so the only way for Cornell to distinguish itself is to win the non-conference games, especially the Everblades tournament. Let the backup goaltender play the next Vermont and Princeton games.

Also, can someone explain exactly how long Lenny would be gone? The dates in the Team Canada press release don't seem to conflict with anything other than exams.

I think last year's seeding was a great one. Could have been much worse anyhow. We clearly were not a Top 2 team in the east and didn't deserve the bye....but of the 8 non-bye teams, we got the best draw in the tournament.

The December 11-16 dates mentioned in the press release are for the selection camp. The IIHF World Junior Hockey Championship in Halifax and Sydney, NS are held on December 26, 2002 to January 5, 2003. These dates do in fact conflict with Maine et al tournament in Florida and the north country road trip with SLU(t) and Clarkson.

I thought I had read on USCHO that Maine's goalie was a prospect for the US National Team. Can anyone confirm this?

Answered my own question. Yes:
[www.canadianhockey.ca]

But Maine has a second goalie who has seen significant playing time (5 games so far) and has good stats (1.59 GAA and .935 Save%).

That's not good. We need to win the Maine game. I guess I have mixed feelings about the players going off to pursue other glory. I would probably be more opposed to it if he was receiving a scholarship but still, he did get a spot at possibly compromised admissions standards. How are we going to feel if he gets injured while playing for Canada?

I was in school when Manderville and Ratushny went to the 1992 Olympics and never came back.

Well ... perhaps Lenny won't end up playing.

From NHL.com

"One position that the Canadians have traditionally wanted returning players is in goal, but this year's camp will have four netminders -- Jeff Drouin-Deslauriers of Chicoutimi (QMJHL), Marc-Andre Fleury of Cape Breton (QMJHL), David LeNeveu of Cornell and Cam Ward of Red Deer (WHL), all looking to make the team for the first time.

"There are no goalies returning from last year," said Habscheid, "but we find that these guys have been outstanding so far this season, they have all helped their teams a lot. There is no front runner right now which gives us a chance to evaluate them at the camp, not only on the ice but how they mesh with the group."

First: I don't think anyone here is in a position to question Dave's academic endeavors. He did decide to come to Cornell over Harvard(sUcKs), end of discussion.

Second: That being said, I could not disagree with you more. . .playing for ones country is quite possible the greatest honor an athlete can have. Yeah, it would suck if Dave didn't come back (though I don't think we have to worry) but if he is really that good then he doesn't belong playing for the RED in the first place. The self-serving sentiments are on both sides of the table, neither of them right or wrong, it just depends upon which side you stand.

My recollection from articles following Team Canada's summer camp was that Lenny had been the strongest goalie there. How scary is it that Cornell may have the best amateur goalie in all of Canada! That would make two out of the six populated continents, since Cornell arguably already accomplished such feat with Australia.

Bill R '94 sez: "I would probably be more opposed to it if he was receiving a scholarship but still, he did get a spot at possibly compromised admissions standards."

My understanding (based on second-hand, unconfirmed reports) is that LeNeveu is actually one of the best students on the team, perhaps one of the best in recent years. That doesn't mean that chits weren't used with admissions, but I think it's less likely in his case.

I have no problem with his attending camp. Here's one (brutally shallow) plus: Don't you love the idea of Lenny telling all these other young Canadian talents about how much he's loving Cornell and Ithaca and Schafer? What a great word-of-mouth opportunity--there ain't another collegian in camp. Cornell won't land any of these guys, but word would spread around the Juniors.

I want Lenny at Cornell instead of the training camp the same way that the partners at my law firm want me here billing my time 24/7. They want it, but they don't expect it - and they don't request it.

I know that my wants are selfish and tuck them away into the part of my mind that harbors such thoughts - and replace them in my public self with wishes that Lenny makes, and excels on, the Canadian national team. And then loses to the U.S. in the finals -- 1-0 in OT -- when he is bumped by his own defenseman. (Damn selfish private self escaped again.)

I let my public self acknowledge that I don't want to schedule MAAC and CHA opponents.

And my public and private selves rarely argue out loud. I've learned my lesson.

I guess we'll disagree on this but maybe I can clarify a little.

It doesn't really matter if Dave is "too good" to be playing NCAA hockey. The fact is that he is a member of a college team and he made a commitment to play for that team. Unlike a professional athlete, or even a college football player, Dave gets more out of Cornell than the school gets from him. College hockey does not generate significant revenue like football does. Aside from getting a first rate education, he is also honing his skills that will allow him to play professionally - something that I don't think 10 days of tryouts is going to do - and because he is on a winning team, he has exposure that has allowed him to be drafted higher than he may have otherwise been - which will directly translate into a higher salary if and when he goes pro. And getting back to the education, even though he does not receive an athletic scholarship, the full cost of tuition does not begin to cover the expenses of running a school like Cornell. Alumni giving to the school helps make that possible. So I don't think it's too much to ask that he show up for the games.

Sure, playing for one's country is an honor but I think the loyalty to an institution that may help make him a success should be a factor. How might Dave feel is all of his defensemen decided to take a few weeks off and he got peppered with so many shots that his GAA ballooned?

And I don't think you can underestimate what beating Maine would do for the program - this year and in the future. This year we would probably see the Red break into the top five and it will only help in the recruiting effort.

Anyway, I'm jealous you guys have a winner to go watch. My junior year ('92-'93) we didn't even make the ECAC tournament.

Yes, they do usually come back right after the Sat. night game. Those of us at Ohio State might remember the team talking about the ride back to Ithaca. I was tired driving back to Cleveland after the post game party say nothing of Ithaca. Coach Schafer also said the would have to stop for food again on the way as the pizza at the party certainly wouldn't hold the team. I wonder when they got home.

lol. Wouldn't hold the team? I just have this image of Dougie sheepishly approaching the front of the bus at about 2am on the ride back from Columbus, "Excuse me, Coach, some of the guys in the back are beginning to get a bit peckish. Might we stop for a bite to eat?"

...and I just got an image in my head of Hornby hip-checking Iggulden out of the ordering line at Wendy's.

Beeeej

Exactly my sentiments!

And I couldn't agree more with Ben!

Go Lenny, Go!

>I have no problem with his attending camp. Here's one (brutally shallow) plus: >Don't you love the idea of Lenny telling all these other young Canadian talents >about how much he's loving Cornell and Ithaca and Schafer? What a great
>word-of-mouth opportunity--there ain't another collegian in camp. Cornell
>won't land any of these guys, but word would spread around the Juniors.

That's the smartest thing I've heard since I regretfully started this thread. It beats when one of the players father (circa 1993) was rumored to be telling guys not to play for Coach Brian McCutcheon. I heard this from within the sports information office.

People seem to be jumping on this imagined attack I have made on LeNeveu's intelligence. If you reread my post(s) I never implied that Lenny is not intelligent or that he took a spot from a regular student. Again, he could be exceptionally smart but he wasn't compared to all of the applicants. I even said that he could be the smartest guy in the entire applicant pool to the University but it doesn't change the way the admissions decisions are made. Anyway, I merely meant to suggest maybe he show some loyalty to the school. He does get a lot back from the school and from being on the team. Nobody has commented on that. Or than beating Maine might be good for the program.

But what would your law firm do if you had a big trial starting at the end of December and you decided to take off for a month to do pro bono work in another country while leaving a first year associate in charge? I'm thinking they might pack up your office for you.

Look, I don't know what the coaches expect of the players in this type of situation. Since this seems to happen all of the time I guess it doesn't truly bother them.

Anyway, lesson learned. Thanks for all of your helpful advice.

Bill, you are completely right when you say that a win over Maine would be beneficial to the program and recruiting. Wouldn't a starting goalie on the Canadian Jr. National Team be just as beneficial??? Just a thought



As for Dave's loyalty to the team. . .he was a Canadian long before he ever put on a RED jersey, his loyalty is right where it belongs.

Don't forget the negative effects it would have on recruiting had Schaeffer tried to prevent him from going. Frankly, it looks better on the program that they are able to attract players of a level that are able to compete with the best in Canadian junior leagues. Ultimately, if this team is going to the Frozen 4, it's going to do so on Leneveu's back (we would've made it last year if not for Underskill's play against UNH). The experience in Halifax will only make him better

I'm pretty sure Schafer discusses the possibility of playing in the nationals with every prospect. I assume he encourages it -- the higher the profile of Cornell University among recruiting hotbeds, the better.

As an example, which would you rather have: Joe Nieuwendyk returning for the 1988 season, or leaving a year early and then spreading the Cornell gospel for 16 NHL seasons? Yes, maybe he could have done both, but: if you had to choose.

DR,

You're kidding about Underhill, right? Maybe we made it as far as we did last year in part because of solid goaltending by Underhill.

Were you knocking Leneveu after our loss to Dartmouth?

No I'm not kidding, Underhill was not the better goalie last year, he had a penchant for giving up terrible rebounds, and not making big saves when it counted. I'm not sure which loss to Dartmouth you're referring to, but I'm not criticizing Underhill on the basis of one game. Look at the BU game he played in last year; he also gave up some bad goals and bad rebounds, leading to the coining of the phrase "Underskill Rebound." Frankly, the fact that Leneveu as a freshman was playing every other game last year is indicative of the fact that he was a better goalie than Underhill. If Schaefer had the guts to start him in the playoffs, we would have beaten UNH.

If, with a courteous amount of notice, I asked for time off to work for my country on a special project that required a substantial amount of volunteer lawyering, my firm would welcome me back after it was over. Life is complicated, and "employers" that think the job is all that their employees have will usually find it tough to keep employees.

I think Schafer knew that he was recruiting a player that might need time off to represent Canada, and still (thankfully) felt that it was worth it to bring him here.

And, for the record, for hockey purposes, LeNeveu doesn't need Cornell that much. He could have played at any school in the country. And he would have had better competition out west. And he certainly would have had better competition and a higher profile if he just stayed in Canada and played major juniors.

Lenny got shelled by Dartmouth at Lynah last year. Many of us were pretty down on him after that.

I think a lot of people realized that Leneveu was the more talented of the two goalies, but I think most also agreed that Underhill deserved to start. He was more experienced, he had paid his dues for four years, and he was pretty damn good by any objective standard. Leneveu will be a better goalie in the long run, but Undy was justifiably the guy last year. I don't think we could have thrown a freshman in there every night and expected him to win us the national championship.

Also, even just looking at their postgame body language, I got the impression Undy was a good mentor for Lenny.

BTW, it should be taken as a sign of how good we have things that people are actually griping about Underhill, who was one of the two or three (depending on whether you count JMP) best goalies to play at Cornell between Paris Duffus and David Leneveu.

And where is Blonde, anyway? Last year she bawled us out for frank and non-insulting appraisals of Ian Burt; some of the comments above about Underhill are much more deserving of that reaction.

Bill, one thing you're missing here is that Cornell (the institution, not the hockey team) encourages its athletes to take these opportunities. It's good for the school in terms of name recognition, prestige for the athletic department, and alumni donations. I would argue that by playing for the Canadian team, LeNeveu might be doing *more* for the university than he would have by passing on the opportunity to stay with his team for a mere 4 games on a 32 game schedule. In this case, it's not as clear cut due to the lower prestige of this event as compared to, say, the Olympics, but I think this point is still valid.

Universities have armies of people devoted to product placement (that's not what the schools call it, but that's effectively what it is) and couldn't be more pleased when free opportunities for positive publicity present themselves (I'll stop practicing my alliteration now). This is good advertising for Cornell. If you have any doubts about this, next time you make it to Lynah note the "Olympians" banners. Also note that Cornell put a list of Olympians on the athletics website and named them in alumni newsletters. Cornell was so eager for any claim to Olympic greatness that Dana Antal, who never graduated and has been attending a school in Canada for several years while training with the Canadian women's national hockey team, was listed.

Yes, maybe Lenny was a better goalie last year. But I for one am glad that Schafer played Underhill. He was a senior, had paid his dues, and gave a lot to Cornell. It was the cap on his career (unfortunately spoiled). We're a school, not a pro team. That's what makes cheering for Cornell so great, IMO.
Liz

Whoa, I never implied that Schafer should prevent him from going or even ask him not to go. Everything I said was about him choosing to stay with the Cornell team for the last big nonconference game.

I just feel that this year could be something really special and I would like to see the whole team out there.

As for loyalty between school and country, sure country is the choice to make.

Am I the only one who thinks that Cornell stands a great chance of winning those 4 games even without Lenny? We have a killer defense and are actually scoring goals this year. Sure, it would be great to have Dave's incredible skills between the pipes, but I really don't think it has to be a make or break proposition.

No you're not. I asked the same question in another thread.

No. I think everyone thinks we can win all four games without LeNeveu. But I also think everyone here believes that we would definitely win all four games with Lenny. (Perhaps a slight exaggeration, but only a slight one.)

And having someone step onto the ice to be the goalie for their first minute of College Hockey against Maine is not ideal.

That is why I have been hoping that in some of these lopsided games, Coach would put in one of the other goalies.

I don't buy the argument that "you cant pull the goalie because he has a shutout". I think the right thing to do is to get Marr and/or Chabot playing time before they are thrown to the Black Bears. The team should come first, and getting Lenny another shutout should not be a factor.

That's a good way to piss a goalie off. You don't want that either. Especially since he's on pace to break Cornell's single-season shutout record.

Well, The Vermont game was 5-0 after the first period. If pulling the goalie then would piss him off, then would he be pissed off if the coach picked another goalie to start the game? After all, if he doesn't play every game he plans to attend, then that will hurt his chance to break Cornell's single-season shutout record!

Seriously, do you really think pulling a goalie to give a backup some playing time, which is for the benefit of the teams future - given the fact that the backup has to play in some games because the starter opts not to be there is something that would piss Lenny off because he'll lose his chance at a shutout?

If the coach wanted to get Marr (or Chabot) game time, he'd start them. You don't put your top goalie in for a period and pull him with a shutout going. You just don't. If you were the goalie, it would piss you off. Furthermore, Cornell's first concern is winning the ECAC championship. Therefore your conference games take top priority and you play your best talent. If that means Marr's first ice time will be in Estero so be it. NC games, ultimately, are secondary.