Separate ushers-vs.-fans game thread?

Having successfully separated the lengthy game thread (Post: GOALLL! Post: Who? Post: Seminoff, I think. Post: LGR, just 1:32 left. Post: Oh no!!!!!) from the postgame thread, it almost seems as if we need a third thread about the antics of the ushers to keep that separate from the why-we-won (or didn't) and who played well (or not) discussion. That seems to be nearly half the post-game thread on Wayne State. How tough and mean-spirited are the ushers (in their role as enforcers of force majeure)?

It would be good to hear from Lynah-attending alumni of the past decade who may have a more dispassionate view but aren't that far removed. Has fear of expressing onself really invaded the rink, or are the ushers trying to bring a civilizing influence to the Lynah atmosphere?

And for extra credit: Is sucks really such a bad word? To a lot of people, it has become a catch-all for "I don't like it" and seems for a long time to have become apart from any suggestive or sexual connotation. (Like Ari's terse summary of Wayne State Game 2: "Didnt suck as much as yesterday but still sucked" [elf.elynah.com]) "Sucks" didn't make George Carlin's Seven Dirty Words [en.wikipedia.org] Usage is trending younger. If there isn't, there probably will be a Raffi song, "Kindergarten sucks." So far, Barney is probably going to lay low on this one.

I don't know the degree of what's going on, but all I have to say is that the Athletics administration has, over as many years as I've seen them, done everything they can to make Cornell Athletics an unfriendly place to be.

Hence my 5 year old sig:

billhoward
"Sucks" didn't make George Carlin's Seven Dirty Words [en.wikipedia.org]

Neither did "asshole", while "piss" did, so maybe that's not the best barometer.

Well, lest the students think they are singled out for usher issues...

I sit over in H (so townie side) in row 2. The guy in front of me (who has had his seats for 17 years) hits the glass at 4 distinct times in the course of the night 1-3) when the Olympia brand ice-resurfacer comes around, he whacks the glass 2-3 times to get the driver's attention and wave 4) he smacks the glass during the cheering when the team is raising sticks post-game. I've never seen him hit the glass during play or at any other time.

Last night, he was smacking the glass during the cheering at the stick raising ceremony (post-game, remember) and the usher came down to tell him he had to stop. I'm thinking, "or what, are you going to throw him out?...the game is over".

CK

I've been a graduate for just a few months now, and it already sounds like Lynah is far worse for cheering than I ever remember it.

I was talked to once for saying something, my sophomore year, for the whole group of friends using the "see ya" chant to its full extent. After that ushers pretty much left us alone, although you could always see them perk up during penalties and Gary Glitter. The only time they ever came down to discuss our conduct was to tell us to not touch the glass and not block the walkway below the first row (as we always had front row seats).

Now it seems like any time a loud individual opens their mouth during a quiet moment they are getting repremanded. I'm shocked Andy's head didn't explode while Nickerson was at Cornell for 4 straight home games.

So what is the change since? Is Cornell athletics trying to keep their image clean for the national...er local...er "All-Access" broadcasts?

This same usher really rubbed us the wrong way this weekend, too. We've have been sitting in the same seats for nearly 20 years, and so have most of the people around us. I KNOW WHERE I AM SUPPOSED TO SIT, DAMMIT. We were about the only people in the whole section, an hour before the game started, and she felt the need to scrutinize our tickets, and then re-examine them every time we came in and out of the section. And then lecture about the possibility that some people in part of Section G might be standing, duh. (And then, fail to keep people from finding their seats in the middle of the row during play.) For crying out loud, I am too old for this and no one wants to sneak into section H anyway!

I can't really figure out exactly why she made me so mad, but she did.

Maybe its because the usher before last bothered to know the season ticket holders in his section. Maybe it's because I am still really pissed off about being patted down for fish for the first time. Is keeping fish out really so important that some stranger has to touch me? I am frickin' 45 years old and I sit behind a 30 foot high net, for cripe's sake! I VOTE FOR PROFILING! Give me another glass of wine and I'll tell you what I really think

As a junior in his third year, sitting in the exact same place as last year (row 6, Section A, on the B-side aisle), yes, it is totally different from last year. I can no longer do my "blunt instrument" routine of being the loudest guy in the section just filling in noise that disturbs their players.

EVERY time the puck was on the other side of the ice and we had the goalie to ourselves (and silence) I would tell him that I hated him, or he sucked, or that he's awful, etc. And people would join in. We got quite a few of players last year to acknowledge our annoying-ness, which means we're doing our job correctly.

This year I cannot do it, because any lone voice crying out, no matter how inoffensive, will be stared down. I'm afraid of telling our opponents that they suck. And that's a damn shame.

Not that we aren't doing it, but can everybody be as loud as possible the entire game and not give a crap next time to see what happens? No cursing, no anything. Just be the loud guy(s)/gal(s) in your section.

If people get kicked out simply for being loud, would they be able to plead their case? I know they can just kick people out at their discretion, but if I'm being louder than others while not cursing or doing anything else that my mom wouldn't want me to do, what right do they have?

Edit: BMac posted at the same time as I did and he sits right behind me...My thoughts exactly: Let's go crazy next game.

Another thought that came to me: are they assuming that if we're being obnoxious and loud that we're not sober or something? Is there any justification or should I just not bother looking for any method to the madness?

Not having been there this year, I can't fully comment, but it seems to me that if everyone cheered as loud as they could and yelled out all of the chants minus the swear words the ushers would be at a loss. They could start throwing people out, but if all of the fans kept it up anyway, what could the ushers do? end up with an empty rink? If this happened for a couple of games in a row atheletics might get the hint. I also don't think Schafer and the team would be too happy to see the stadium emptying out over the game.

reilly83
This same usher really rubbed us the wrong way this weekend, too. We've have been sitting in the same seats for nearly 20 years, and so have most of the people around us. I KNOW WHERE I AM SUPPOSED TO SIT, DAMMIT.

YES!!! I'm really glad you brought that up, reilly83. I had to laugh at the annoyance of that lady at the G/H aisle. Look...I don't mind that the ushers check tickets to make sure the people entering the section have tickets for that section...that is absolutely their job. But don't make me look like a 2nd grader by proceeding to point out where my seat is exactly with a 15-second explanation of how to get there. I didn't ask where my seat was.

Of course, that irritation is such a minor one compared to what's apparently going on in the student section now. If true, this shouldn't stand. Fight back with voices and in numbers. Coach has said throughout his coaching tenure that obscenities are the only thing he objects to and he encouraged the Lynah crowd to be intimidating and loud.

Earlier this season, I showed up a little *too* early, as they weren't taking tickets yet. As a result, I got to unintentionally observe from a distance the pre-game huddle that Gene had with the ushering crew. It's somewhat interesting. A lot of "Andy says..." and "Andy wants..." being thrown around. So there are marching orders. It seems that some people handle power differently than others.

cth95
I also don't think Schafer and the team would be too happy to see the stadium emptying out over the game.

Exactly. I too haven't made it back to Lynah yet this season, but our own school is clearly trying to remove part of our own home-ice advantage and a major part of the Cornell student experience (besides, it's not like we get to go for free!).

At this point, I think the only thing that could have an impact (independent of the entire student section being LOUD at all times every game) would be to contract in the opinion of someone more respected than (fire) Andy Noel. While he is a rather busy man at this point, I think it would probably be worth the time of some students to try and reach Schafer some how and express what is really going on here. It seems much of the vulgarity has been cleaned up (which he would approve of), but now many of the aspects vital to our home-ice advantage (and recruiting strategy to boot) are being taken away. I think that is a cause Coach might get behind. While it's probably not the best course of action now, if this facism continues throughout the season it is an avenue worth exploring.

facism? I'm not sure if you're using the right word here. How about draconian? That's a much better word.

kaelistus
facism? I'm not sure if you're using the right word here. How about draconian? That's a much better word.

Fine then. Insert oppressive -ism of your choice. You get the point. The only -ism we dealt with in Natural Resources was "environmentalism" and that's definitely a made-up word, I don't care what anybody says.

This creepy, power hungry lady will not let anyone go out the doors opposite the stairs at the end of each period. She says we will not be let back in. So they force us to walk into the bottleneck that occurs at the top of section j or k where the concourse ends and we must go back into the rink to then exit out of the main doors. Why do they feel the need to plaster our hands with ink that takes three days to wash off if they won't let us exit thru the most convenient doors possible? What possible harm would it do to let people out of those doors (especially when most of the ushers are happy to let people out there!)?

Well I plan on coming back for a game this year, maybe SHU, and I plan on bringing back some love if this is the case.

I mean I'd love to have some chippy defensman come visit Lynah again if he will take 5 penalties a game by himself. And I'll let the visiting goaltender know how much I love his ability to allow 6 or 7 goals in a game (not so out of the question with this team anymore).

Could they really throw me out for telling the opponents I love how great (read: poorly) they are playing that night?

Or maybe Andy just wants the students to drink until they can't feel feelings anymore...

BCrespi

kaelistus
facism? I'm not sure if you're using the right word here. How about draconian? That's a much better word.

Fine then. Insert oppressive -ism of your choice. You get the point. The only -ism we dealt with in Natural Resources was "environmentalism" and that's definitely a made-up word, I don't care what anybody says.

But then again I can't think of any word that hasn't been made-up.

After going to the basketball game tonight (crappy Cornell loss), I've seen enough to call bullshit on this whole "Nazi-esque" usher problem. First off, I've been at every game this season, and never once had a problem with any usher anywhere in the place. I know most of them if not by name, then by face, and they recognize me, and we usually say hi, or talk about the game.

Secondly, at the basketball game, I saw and heard several people yelling some various opposing player sucks. At a basketball game, that's far easier to tell when the place is empty, and it echos around the gym. On top of that, everyone's (least) favorite AD was sitting no more than 20 feet away and didn't even flinch.

My thought: people aren't being persecuted for saying "sucks" but rather something far more obscene. I don't doubt people are being thrown out - it's more like the kid who gets doing something bad at school, but not being completely honest with his parent when he gets home about just how serious it is.

I've said it before: you can be supportive of the team and make the place a hostile environment for opponents without being stupid - a foreign concept around these parts.

I just figured I'd mention that theyre not all bad.. the usher that was standing next to me admitted that if we snuck extra people in or were swearing, as long as it wasnt blatant or stupid (he told me about someone saying f**k with him standing RIGHT next to her), or if people dont complain (about space) he really wouldnt make it a problem. he would deal with problems there arise, but isnt going to cause any! we need more like him!

bandrews37
My thought: people aren't being persecuted for saying "sucks" but rather something far more obscene. I don't doubt people are being thrown out - it's more like the kid who gets doing something bad at school, but not being completely honest with his parent when he gets home about just how serious it is.

I've said it before: you can be supportive of the team and make the place a hostile environment for opponents without being stupid - a foreign concept around these parts.

wow, for once I totally agree. Sucks isn;t bad, not my favorite word, but not bad. just don't be dumb and you'll be fine.

I'm very sorry to say this, but you're wrong. We have a major problem with ushers cracking down on students much more than they used to.

As I've pointed out before, a friend of mine followed Hooper (Wayne State goalie) from section A to D in the 2nd period of Sunday's game. At the start of the period he yelled Hooper's name repeatedly, and that Hooper couldn't get rid of him. He didn't swear, or even say "sucks". He used no language that would warrant a PG rating, let alone anything family unfriendly. An usher raced over to us, and told him that if he kept it up, he would be tossed.

If things stay like this, Lynah will eventually stop being Lynah. Many of our recruits list Lynah's atmosphere as a major factor in their decision to come to Cornell. If we lose that, we're just an Ivy League school in the middle of upstate NY. Education aside, we don't have much else to draw in recruits.

The more I think about it, the more I think this could actually be a problem for the future of Cornell Hockey. I hate to sound so drastic, but the ushers are significantly more strict than they were last year, let alone compared to stories I've heard from before my time here.

But it's inconsistency that makes this so difficult. Sure, throw us all out when the third period begins, or when someone goes into the box. But don't throw out two people and say you're enforcing the rule. Don't make it an issue, as you said your usher does, of whether s/he happens to be standing behind you when you let it out. Be consistent, because this weekend I had an usher staring right at me, and instead of keeping it clean in the chants, I just kept my mouth shut, because I'm scared of being made the game's example. That was me and my roommate, in section B, not chanting, and it's two less voices in Lynah.

I also disagree with Dpperk29. They are cracking down on people being LOUD. I'm in A and during Dartmouth I looked at the usher while I cheered. She was staring at me. She saw my lips and knew exactly what I was saying. So I was being loud and getting into the game. So what? I didn't curse, I didn't do anything wrong, and I had her single me out and talk to me (she then told me to "tell my friends" as if that's my job and not hers).

I don't care that she did. I'm going to continue to be my loud self because that's who I am. But other people in my section who saw that might be afraid to cheer now. It's a bad thing, and it's nothing like it's been for the past 3 years I've been here.

OK, I sit right around Razzbaron and BMac and I really don't think the ushers in A are that bad. I've talked to both of them at length and they have said repeatedly that sucks is allowed and I have not seen anyone being removed who has only been loud.

It is true that they stare at the crowd a lot but that is their job and they will naturally look at those of us who are louder more than everyone else. Moreover, I talked to one at the Dartmouth game and she said that she had been told off for watching the game too much the night before so she's been extra careful to watch the crowd.

I also heard her tell you to tell your friends ot to swear but I thought that she also said that what you were doing was ok but any more would get you thrown out (I may be wrong on that, you know better than me).

On the whole, the atmosphere has become more oppressive but I seriously doubt that they will kick anyone out except for swearing, just ignore them when they stare at you or better yet, smile and say hi.

Dafatone
If things stay like this, Lynah will eventually stop being Lynah. Many of our recruits list Lynah's atmosphere as a major factor in their decision to come to Cornell. If we lose that, we're just an Ivy League school in the middle of upstate NY. Education aside, we don't have much else to draw in recruits.

The more I think about it, the more I think this could actually be a problem for the future of Cornell Hockey. I hate to sound so drastic...

Then don't. There's no need for hyperbole. This recurring discussion used to be about some students and ushers accusing each other of egregious behavior. Now it's become a bunch of Walmart greeters turning the undergrads into the Lynah Fearful? Really? Your fun is ruined because of them?

And a potential student who happens to play hockey isn't going to consider Ithaca if the crowd isn't the same? Good riddance. I know we repeatedly get these stories about players choosing Cornell because of the Lynah crowd, and that's gotta be some nice extra validation to all us fans. Those players sure are great- saying what they're supposed to say and what all the other players before them have said. I'm sure that for some of them, if they were on the fence about two schools, might have even tipped Cornell's way because of what they witnessed at a game. But if they aren't sold by the coach, the teammates they meet, the history of the team, the non-Lynah parts of campus, the mere "education," every aspect of Cornell except what you're yelling Friday and Saturday nights...if they don't think that's enough...they can have a fine time at almost sixty other Division I hockey schools. And if any player, because a crowd of fans are feeling more hassled than usual, referred to Cornell as "just an Ivy League school in the middle of upstate NY," I'd just as soon spit on him as cheer his name.

well, test this theory by being loud, but only cheering for cornell. don't say anything about the other team. Don't say anything about how bad the other team is. Just support your team in a loud positive manner. I'd be willing to bet that no one will say anything

Jacob 03
And a potential student who happens to play hockey isn't going to consider Ithaca if the crowd isn't the same? Good riddance. I know we repeatedly get these stories about players choosing Cornell because of the Lynah crowd, and that's gotta be some nice extra validation to all us fans.

Maybe the stories about the crowd's draw are just nice things that players say, and maybe they're true. Either way, there's no justification for some of the ushers' behavior, unless you don't think fans in Lynah should be loud and pestersome. Loud and positive is fine, and believe me, I'm all for cheering on our team pretty much every single minute, but harassing the other team, at least in a family-friendly manner, should be allowed.

Jacob 03

Dafatone
If things stay like this, Lynah will eventually stop being Lynah. Many of our recruits list Lynah's atmosphere as a major factor in their decision to come to Cornell. If we lose that, we're just an Ivy League school in the middle of upstate NY. Education aside, we don't have much else to draw in recruits.

The more I think about it, the more I think this could actually be a problem for the future of Cornell Hockey. I hate to sound so drastic...

Then don't. There's no need for hyperbole. This recurring discussion used to be about some students and ushers accusing each other of egregious behavior. Now it's become a bunch of Walmart greeters turning the undergrads into the Lynah Fearful? Really? Your fun is ruined because of them?

And a potential student who happens to play hockey isn't going to consider Ithaca if the crowd isn't the same? Good riddance. I know we repeatedly get these stories about players choosing Cornell because of the Lynah crowd, and that's gotta be some nice extra validation to all us fans. Those players sure are great- saying what they're supposed to say and what all the other players before them have said. I'm sure that for some of them, if they were on the fence about two schools, might have even tipped Cornell's way because of what they witnessed at a game. But if they aren't sold by the coach, the teammates they meet, the history of the team, the non-Lynah parts of campus, the mere "education," every aspect of Cornell except what you're yelling Friday and Saturday nights...if they don't think that's enough...they can have a fine time at almost sixty other Division I hockey schools. And if any player, because a crowd of fans are feeling more hassled than usual, referred to Cornell as "just an Ivy League school in the middle of upstate NY," I'd just as soon spit on him as cheer his name.

Agreed on all points. However, this is not to say that the crackdown policy is making games less fun and diffusing the boisterous spirit of the crowd and what should feel like being part of a riot. It sure feels nice to experience a game where fans have as much adrenaline going as the players and where bloodthirstiness is tangible. Call me classless, but this is one of the main reasons I love games.

Scannon, I agree that they seem less likely to arbitrarily throw us out for loudness, but it's stories like the one of someone following Hooper around and just shouting his name loudly for a reprimand that scare me.

Side note: I, and I think everybody else on this forum agree that profanity has no place in Lynah. I'm glad we can agree on that. All we want is the right to be (creatively/sarcastically) obnoxious to the other team, without fear of expulsion.

BMac
Side note: I, and I think everybody else on this forum agree that profanity has no place in Lynah. I'm glad we can agree on that. All we want is the right to be (creatively/sarcastically) obnoxious to the other team, without fear of expulsion.

Well said. I can't speak for all the ushers, but one of the ones in D is way too harsh. Then again, there's a batch of kids in front of me that are constantly yelling at the usher, so I can understand why he might be in a bad mood.

RazzBaronZ
Not that we aren't doing it, but can everybody be as loud as possible the entire game and not give a crap next time to see what happens? No cursing, no anything. Just be the loud guy(s)/gal(s) in your section.

Good if you could convince the entire section to be extra loud the whole game ... but is it really going to happen? What about the opposite - one game of silence, or one period of silence, except polite clapping if Cornell scores. Especially if it was the sections around the bench, the team would notice and perhaps wonder.

Prior to, what, WWII, the U.S. military had a court martial offense called silent insolence or silent insubordination, which was a catchall for wiseasses who didn't fall into any other category. That's what it would be here, too. You all would be on double secret probation so fast you wouldn't know what hit you.

BTW: How many people (maybe alums?) have spoken with ushers and tried to understand what they're being told to do and how enthusiastic they are, or aren't, about doing this. I bet they're hockey fans, too. It's not much money and it's a pretty small power trip, so it must be the hockey.

The usher who told me to tone down the Hooper taunting on Sunday was very apologetic after the game. I went over to her to try to get clarification on what exactly I had said that provoked the warning. She said she personally thought I wasn't over the line, but that she had been taken aside and specifically told by "one of [fire] Andy's people" to warn me. She actually agreed with me that the slow eroding of enthusiasm at the games is going to hurt the atmosphere and the program in the long run.

She said "yeah, i agree, but I have to do what [fire] Andy's people tell me to do." And I remarked, perhaps over-dramatically, "Satan has a warm bed ready for that man." To which she replied, to my surprise, "well, that's probably true but I have to do what I have to do."

I can't speak to any of the other ushers, but she seemed pretty reasonable.

oceanst41
I was talked to once for saying something, my sophomore year, for the whole group of friends using the "see ya" chant to its full extent.

"... Wildfong! Bastard! ..."

Dafatone
I'm very sorry to say this, but you're wrong.

He called bullshit on an entire group of people relating their personal experiences in Lynah, based on a basketball game and on not having had the same experience at the hockey games that many other people have had. Then he basically called you all liars. Why be sorry?

jtwcornell91

oceanst41
I was talked to once for saying something, my sophomore year, for the whole group of friends using the "see ya" chant to its full extent.

"... Wildfong! Bastard! ..."

Oops, maybe I should have said Lynah full extent not Yost

But seriously, when did ushering become more about policing language than checking tickets, escorting to seats, breaking up fights, being the first to puck injuries, etc...

I mean it's not really their job, but it's becoming the number one priority night in and night out, as if they(Andy) are looking to throw someone out nightly. From talking to them, some of these ushers are afraid that if they don't toss people every once and a while they will be replaced. Now that doesn't seem right any way you slice it.

oceanst41
From talking to them, some of these ushers are afraid that if they don't toss people every once and a while they will be replaced. Now that doesn't seem right any way you slice it.

Wooo!!! Quotas! Them kids are all up to no good, I tells ya.

RichH

oceanst41
From talking to them, some of these ushers are afraid that if they don't toss people every once and a while they will be replaced. Now that doesn't seem right any way you slice it.

Wooo!!! Quotas! Them kids are all up to no good, I tells ya.

I heard the ushers were racially profiling. They'll stop a car with a black man going 55 but won't care about the rich white folk who are doing 75! (Joking, of course... )

Though I sound like a broken record every time I weigh in on this sort of thing, the best course of action has always seemed to me to fight fire with fire: fight (fire) Andy Noel's evil hyper-organization and ass-hatted-ness with good hyper-organization and ass-hatted-ness.

Cheer sheets, full of cleanly worded but completely over-the-top cheers, should be placed on all the student benches. Some of the cheers should be directly confrontational--stuff about the new "family atmosphere," the ushers as thugs, and how Andy Noel flings puppies into deep holes in his spare time. Students should chant these things frequently throughout the game--remember, once again, the "clean" nature of these cheers, with nary even a "suck"--and basically dare Andy and his goons to throw out the whole student section.

My guess? They'll back down when confronted with organized resistance.

Scersk '97
Though I sound like a broken record every time I weigh in on this sort of thing, the best course of action has always seemed to me to fight fire with fire: fight (fire) Andy Noel's evil hyper-organization and ass-hatted-ness with good hyper-organization and ass-hatted-ness.

Cheer sheets, full of cleanly worded but completely over-the-top cheers, should be placed on all the student benches. Some of the cheers should be directly confrontational--stuff about the new "family atmosphere," the ushers as thugs, and how Andy Noel flings puppies into deep holes in his spare time. Students should chant these things frequently throughout the game--remember, once again, the "clean" nature of these cheers, with nary even a "suck"--and basically dare Andy and his goons to throw out the whole student section.

My guess? They'll back down when confronted with organized resistance.

"Andy Noeeeeelllll..."
"Wears Socks!!"

Though I probably woulnd't put them on the seats as a newly overyly-empowered usher will probably read them and try to confiscate them/throw them all away. Better to pass them out once people have filed in. I like where your head's at though.

While I hated the "let's chant goalie phone numbers" craze of a few years ago, it would be funny to rattle off Andy's phone number or license plate or some such...

Chris '03
While I hated the "let's chant goalie phone numbers" craze of a few years ago, it would be funny to rattle off Andy's phone number or license plate or some such...

(607)255-8832!!!
(607)255-8832!!!
(607)255-8832!!!

(That's his work number... doesn't seem particularly inappropriate to post.)

KeithK

Chris '03
While I hated the "let's chant goalie phone numbers" craze of a few years ago, it would be funny to rattle off Andy's phone number or license plate or some such...

(607)255-8832!!!
(607)255-8832!!!
(607)255-8832!!!

(That's his work number... doesn't seem particularly inappropriate to post.)

Cornell doesn't think so.

Scersk '97, If someone could organize this cheer at a game, I think it would be D*MN funny:

Andy Noel flings puppies into deep holes

Beeeej

Dafatone
I'm very sorry to say this, but you're wrong.

He called bullshit on an entire group of people relating their personal experiences in Lynah, based on a basketball game and on not having had the same experience at the hockey games that many other people have had. Then he basically called you all liars. Why be sorry?

Dude, what's your problem with me? Neither I nor any of my friends have gotten tossed from a game, and haven't seen anyone get tossed without doing something to deserve it. Have I seen people get tossed? Sure - all of them with cause for saying or doing something that you'd get thrown out of any event (not just Cornell events) for.

If you're scared of getting thrown out, it's probably because you've got a guilty conscience about doing something that you shouldn't be doing in the first place. And frankly, the guy "following" Hooper around? Would he have been able to do that if the place was sold out? So why should he be able to if the joint's half empty? Last time I checked, my ticket had a section number, row number and seat number.

Don't be stupid, and there'll be no problems.

kaelistus
Scersk '97, If someone could organize this cheer at a game, I think it would be D*MN funny:

Andy Noel flings puppies into deep holes

What if a chant goes up where one side of the rink does "FI-RE" and the other side responds "AN-DY"? That would have an interesting ring to it.

Killer

kaelistus
Scersk '97, If someone could organize this cheer at a game, I think it would be D*MN funny:

Andy Noel flings puppies into deep holes

What if a chant goes up where one side of the rink does "FI-RE" and the other side responds "AN-DY"? That would have an interesting ring to it.

You're giving people WAY too much credit.

I personally think cheering out Noel's number or any other anti-Noel cheer is completely inappropriate, at this time. Yes you might feel good and think it was funny, but what do you possibly think you'll get from it. Do you think it will make him change whatever policy this is? Hardly.

Rather than be aggressive, passive resistance can get people on your side and might lead to changes. I like the idea of being quiet and having the administration, coach included, ask what happenned. But the chances of pulling that off are miniscule. So what are you left with; cheer in an appropriate way, take the chance that you get thrown out and then bring it up to the powers to be. If enough did it, it could have an impact. But it comes down to whether you really want to change things or just like to complain.

Chris '03

Killer

kaelistus
Scersk '97, If someone could organize this cheer at a game, I think it would be D*MN funny:

Andy Noel flings puppies into deep holes

What if a chant goes up where one side of the rink does "FI-RE" and the other side responds "AN-DY"? That would have an interesting ring to it.

You're giving people WAY too much credit.

I'm not saying it doesn't need some organized instigators to get it rolling. But once it catches on...

Is shouting "FIRE" in a crowded hockey rink really such a good idea?

jtwcornell91
Is shouting "FIRE" in a crowded hockey rink really such a good idea?

Well considering the response the fire alarms got last year(?), I'm not sure it would do too much.

Beat me to it.

Jim Hyla
So what are you left with; cheer in an appropriate way, take the chance that you get thrown out and then bring it up to the powers to be. If enough did it, it could have an impact. But it comes down to whether you really want to change things or just like to complain.

Well said, Jim.

bandrews37

Beeeej

Dafatone
I'm very sorry to say this, but you're wrong.

He called bullshit on an entire group of people relating their personal experiences in Lynah, based on a basketball game and on not having had the same experience at the hockey games that many other people have had. Then he basically called you all liars. Why be sorry?

Dude, what's your problem with me? Neither I nor any of my friends have gotten tossed from a game, and haven't seen anyone get tossed without doing something to deserve it. Have I seen people get tossed? Sure - all of them with cause for saying or doing something that you'd get thrown out of any event (not just Cornell events) for.

I thought I was clear. My problem is your assumption that because you have not personally experienced or personally witnessed something, it is almost certain not to have happened, and everybody who claims otherwise is probably lying to cover their own bad behavior. There are 4,200+ people at most of these games. What you personally witness is a very small fraction of what's actually going on - unless of course you're moving swiftly from section to section, and watching everything but the hockey game.

If you're scared of getting thrown out, it's probably because you've got a guilty conscience about doing something that you shouldn't be doing in the first place.

...unless of course the ushers in some sections have actually been behaving the way that several people independently claim they've been behaving. Intimidation is a powerful force.

Don't be stupid, and there'll be no problems.

That's what I've been saying from the beginning. Follow the rules about profanity as they're actually set out, and you shouldn't have problems - then if you do have problems, you can use the fact that you were following the rules to make a stink about being singled out for no reason. We agree more than you think. I just don't particularly care for seeing you accuse several people you've never met of behaving badly, lying about it, and then lying about the ushers to cover their lies.

Do I doubt there might be someone who really is acting indignant without justification? Not at all. I'm just open to the possibility that someone's been through something I haven't.

Beeeej
That's what I've been saying from the beginning. Follow the rules about profanity as they're actually set out, and you shouldn't have problems - then if you do have problems, you can use the fact that you were following the rules to make a stink about being singled out for no reason.

This is sound logic, except if you don't break the rules and get tossed, knowing that you were right might not hold up for much. If it happened to me, I'd make a big stink, but that wouldn't be any consolation for missing the rest of the season.

Dafatone
This is sound logic, except if you don't break the rules and get tossed, knowing that you were right might not hold up for much. If it happened to me, I'd make a big stink, but that wouldn't be any consolation for missing the rest of the season.

Hell, I would take it all the way to Skorton. I give the hockey program and associated groups a bunch of money, both in donations and in tickets, and I'll be damned if (fire) Andy is going to have his goon squad throw me out without facing me in person and without me making it absolutely miserable for him.

I say "rough", I say "See ya you goon!", I haven't screamed "TRFS" since like 1996 (not that any of the current students know about that one anyway), and the loudest thing that usually comes out of my mouth is "Let's Go Red!" But if they're as capricious as some people here claim, there's still a chance I could get tossed. I'd like to see them try.

Kyle

krose

Dafatone
This is sound logic, except if you don't break the rules and get tossed, knowing that you were right might not hold up for much. If it happened to me, I'd make a big stink, but that wouldn't be any consolation for missing the rest of the season.

Hell, I would take it all the way to Skorton. I give the hockey program and associated groups a bunch of money, both in donations and in tickets, and I'll be damned if (fire) Andy is going to have his goon squad throw me out without facing me in person and without me making it absolutely miserable for him.

Exactly. I don't mean take satisfaction in being right, I mean fight it every step of the way. If an usher tells you he's removing you from the game, politely insist upon knowing why. Ask him what rule he's enforcing, in what way he believes you broke it, etc. If you have not done what he claims you did, politely insist that you didn't do it, and politely request that you be allowed to stay. If that doesn't work, write down every detail of that conversation, and send copies to Gene Nighman, Andy Noel, the Dean of Students, the Judicial Administrator, and the Cornell Daily Sun.

Then it'll get interesting.

Beeeej
Exactly. I don't mean take satisfaction in being right, I mean fight it every step of the way. If an usher tells you he's removing you from the game, politely insist upon knowing why. Ask him what rule he's enforcing, in what way he believes you broke it, etc. If you have not done what he claims you did, politely insist that you didn't do it, and politely request that you be allowed to stay. If that doesn't work, write down every detail of that conversation, and send copies to Gene Nighman, Andy Noel, the Dean of Students, the Judicial Administrator, and the Cornell Daily Sun.

Then it'll get interesting.

If you have not broken a rule and the usher rejects your polite request to stay, I'd also suggest asking to see a supervisor (as in Gene Nighman). The best response to attempted intimidation of this kind is to politely but firmly stand up to it. It's not like they can throw you in prison, after all.

KeithK

Beeeej
Exactly. I don't mean take satisfaction in being right, I mean fight it every step of the way. If an usher tells you he's removing you from the game, politely insist upon knowing why. Ask him what rule he's enforcing, in what way he believes you broke it, etc. If you have not done what he claims you did, politely insist that you didn't do it, and politely request that you be allowed to stay. If that doesn't work, write down every detail of that conversation, and send copies to Gene Nighman, Andy Noel, the Dean of Students, the Judicial Administrator, and the Cornell Daily Sun.

Then it'll get interesting.

If you have not broken a rule and the usher rejects your polite request to stay, I'd also suggest asking to see a supervisor (as in Gene Nighman). The best response to attempted intimidation of this kind is to politely but firmly stand up to it. It's not like they can throw you in prison, after all.

Yes. If rebuffed, escalate gradually, politely, but firmly.

Beeeej

KeithK

Beeeej
Exactly. I don't mean take satisfaction in being right, I mean fight it every step of the way. If an usher tells you he's removing you from the game, politely insist upon knowing why. Ask him what rule he's enforcing, in what way he believes you broke it, etc. If you have not done what he claims you did, politely insist that you didn't do it, and politely request that you be allowed to stay. If that doesn't work, write down every detail of that conversation, and send copies to Gene Nighman, Andy Noel, the Dean of Students, the Judicial Administrator, and the Cornell Daily Sun.

Then it'll get interesting.

If you have not broken a rule and the usher rejects your polite request to stay, I'd also suggest asking to see a supervisor (as in Gene Nighman). The best response to attempted intimidation of this kind is to politely but firmly stand up to it. It's not like they can throw you in prison, after all.

Yes. If rebuffed, escalate gradually, politely, but firmly.

Or, in Kyle's case, pull out your handgun and threaten to shoot them.

Beeeej

krose

Dafatone
This is sound logic, except if you don't break the rules and get tossed, knowing that you were right might not hold up for much. If it happened to me, I'd make a big stink, but that wouldn't be any consolation for missing the rest of the season.

Hell, I would take it all the way to Skorton. I give the hockey program and associated groups a bunch of money, both in donations and in tickets, and I'll be damned if (fire) Andy is going to have his goon squad throw me out without facing me in person and without me making it absolutely miserable for him.

Exactly. I don't mean take satisfaction in being right, I mean fight it every step of the way. If an usher tells you he's removing you from the game, politely insist upon knowing why. Ask him what rule he's enforcing, in what way he believes you broke it, etc. If you have not done what he claims you did, politely insist that you didn't do it, and politely request that you be allowed to stay. If that doesn't work, write down every detail of that conversation, and send copies to Gene Nighman, Andy Noel, the Dean of Students, the Judicial Administrator, and the Cornell Daily Sun.

Then it'll get interesting.

I'd question whether the Sun would print it or if they'd get pressured not to. Send a copy to the Journal, too.

BTW, I'll be up there for the Yale/Brown series in January. I'll be glad to get some anti-Noel cheers going in the third period Saturday night. What can they do, take away my degree?

Jeff Hopkins '82
I'd question whether the Sun would print it or if they'd get pressured not to. Send a copy to the Journal, too.

Pressured by whom? They're completely independent of the university. Andy could threaten their press passes, but they'd probably just send writers with regular tickets.

Beeeej

Jeff Hopkins '82
I'd question whether the Sun would print it or if they'd get pressured not to. Send a copy to the Journal, too.

Pressured by whom? They're completely independent of the university.

I didn't know that.

But they are students. The University has their ways...

Jeff Hopkins '82

Beeeej

Jeff Hopkins '82
I'd question whether the Sun would print it or if they'd get pressured not to. Send a copy to the Journal, too.

Pressured by whom? They're completely independent of the university.

I didn't know that.

But they are students. The University has their ways...

It's Cornell, not Karl Rove.

Beeeej
Then it'll get interesting.

I'm not opposed to it, but I'm not really sure how interesting it will get. I would assume the ushers have broad leeway in deciding what constitutes disruptive behavior. If the usher claims you are disruptive... you kinda are. At least, I would think that is the position the AD or rink or Cornell or whoever the controlling entity is would take, in order to back up the ushers.

If an usher really became a tinhorn dictator and started doing the brownshirt shuffle, then repeated incidents in which he was hauled in to justify his actions might result in his removal to some other task. But I'm not sure we're talking about a particular miscreant, here. It sounds more like popular objection to a broad policy. Assuming the policy is official and put in place by the AD or the university, their own review board is not likely to restrict them. This is not the court system and judicial review -- it's more like a company town, where the judge and the mayor are golf buddies.

Trotsky

Beeeej
Then it'll get interesting.

I'm not opposed to it, but I'm not really sure how interesting it will get. I would assume the ushers have broad leeway in deciding what constitutes disruptive behavior. If the usher claims you are disruptive... you kinda are.

I'm not suggesting we take it to court for a ruling on a void for vagueness claim, but the aim of making a stink about it remains the same. It's not popular objection to a broad policy, it's popular objection to inconsistent enforcement of an unclear and apparently fluid policy.

It seems like different ushers enforce different standards on different nights. If we have it on authority from Gene, the guy in charge of the ushers, that "sucks" is okay, then it's not okay for one of the ushers to say differently. If one usher thinks it's okay to yell obnoxiously as long as there's no profanity, it's not okay for another usher to throw someone out and revoke their season tickets for being non-profanely obnoxious. The way it sounds like they're enforcing these "rules" is inconsistent and gives no notice to attendees at the games as to what behavior is acceptable and what behavior isn't.

If enough people make a public stink over it, maybe they'll be forced to come up with actual guidelines that people can actually follow without fear of punishment for doing things that previously were just fine. Once we have notice what really is okay and what isn't, even if we don't agree with where the lines have been drawn, at least people can stop being randomly afraid.

Unless of course they're liars who are just using the ushers as an excuse to cover up their horrendous miscreant behavior... or can't spell my name.

Jim Hyla
I personally think cheering out Noel's number or any other anti-Noel cheer is completely inappropriate ...

Civility should afford Andy Noel some umbrella of privacy in his personal life. He's not napalming babies. He's being, apparently, a bit anal in what he wants chanted at Lynah. That's not life or death.

(Warning -- thread drift Parallel case in point: I was at the LA Auto Show and at a panel discussion on hydrogen fuel, global warming, etcetera. One speaker was BMW's congressman from South Carolina, who spent time in Antarctica and thinks the global warming thing is for real. (Correction, the congressman whose district the BMW plant is in.) Not sure I'd agree 100% with Bob Inglis' non-car views, but we got to talking about whether the best and the brightest less often want to go into public service. Case in point, he said: He's pro-life / anti-abortion (take your choice on terminology) but he did vote to fund Planned Parenthood activities that don't fund abortion services. Now, he and his wife and kids are being hassled in his own church by an uber-pro-lifer who says he's sold out. Sheesh! Even the Mafia doesn't go after your family.

nyc94

Jeff Hopkins '82

Beeeej

Jeff Hopkins '82
I'd question whether the Sun would print it or if they'd get pressured not to. Send a copy to the Journal, too.

Pressured by whom? They're completely independent of the university.

I didn't know that.

But they are students. The University has their ways...

It's Cornell, not Karl Rove.

I was thinking the Gestapo, but close enough.

I think I should note that at the RPI game tonight, there were two guys in the middle of Section D, a few rows up from me that were just begging to be thrown out: screaming about doing Alford's mom and sister (and dad at one point too I believe) "in the butt", and also about how much his mom, dad and sister deserved to be "done in the butt" repeatedly. The sad part was that they actually had more rhythm than most of the cheering in Section D...but they were loud as hell, usually screaming during quiet periods, and actually had several dozen people cringing or cracking up.

Somehow, the ushers didn't even pay them any mind, and it wasn't for lack of presence, since we were greeted with a friendly usher during Gary Glitter who made sure we knew he was there, and gently reminded us to say "rough 'em up". A few people pointed out the "butt" guys to the usher, but although they kept it up later on in the third period, they were never tossed.

I wonder what would have happened if they tried that in Section A

sah67
I think I should note that at the RPI game tonight, there were two guys in the middle of Section D, a few rows up from me that were just begging to be thrown out: screaming about doing Alford's mom and sister (and dad at one point too I believe) "in the butt", and also about how much his mom, dad and sister deserved to be "done in the butt" repeatedly. The sad part was that they actually had more rhythm than most of the cheering in Section D...but they were loud as hell, usually screaming during quiet periods, and actually had several dozen people cringing or cracking up.

Somehow, the ushers didn't even pay them any mind, and it wasn't for lack of presence, since we were greeted with a friendly usher during Gary Glitter who made sure we knew he was there, and gently reminded us to say "rough 'em up". A few people pointed out the "butt" guys to the usher, but although they kept it up later on in the third period, they were never tossed.

I wonder what would have happened if they tried that in Section A

Idiots right behind me in B were just doing non-stop, profanity-laced shouting about how the fuckers ("Cornell" couldn't get the fucking puck in the fucking net, we were playing like shit, etc. Nothing from the ushers. Meanwhile, the RPI fans were able to hold up the Cornell Sucks sign a few times towards the beginning of the game. I've brought a Yale Sucks sign to Ingalls a couple times and have had it (somewhat reasonably) confiscated right after the first time I hold it up. I would have been happy to see the Cornell Sucks sign taken away a lot more quickly.

ebilmes
I would have been happy to see the Cornell Sucks sign taken away a lot more quickly.

Well, that would be insulting to our visitors. According to our non-fired-as-of-yet AD, we can't have that.

I have to say, the phrase "do it in the butt" makes me think of the hidden track from the Butt Trumpet album Primative Enema which was popular back in my college radio days.

As I posted in the Union postgame thread, the ushers were very nice the past 2 nights. I yelled as loud as I could, and got to get into the goalies' heads without a peep from the ushers.

As far as I can tell, as long as nobody is cursing, they're being nice. Even when someone did, they got a warning and didn't do it again. As long as this is the case from now on, I have no further beef with the ushers.

or "pucks clocks" (sorry, too much fun... couldn't resist)

RazzBaronZ
As I posted in the Union postgame thread, the ushers were very nice the past 2 nights. I yelled as loud as I could, and got to get into the goalies' heads without a peep from the ushers.

As far as I can tell, as long as nobody is cursing, they're being nice. Even when someone did, they got a warning and didn't do it again. As long as this is the case from now on, I have no further beef with the ushers.

yeah the guy along the a/b aisle actually asked me to warn those cursing because he was try hard not to throw anybody out. Great to hear.

Jeff Hopkins '82

Beeeej

Jeff Hopkins '82
I'd question whether the Sun would print it or if they'd get pressured not to. Send a copy to the Journal, too.

Pressured by whom? They're completely independent of the university.

I didn't know that.

But they are students. The University has their ways...

They're pretty strong-willed students. The Sun has printed more damaging things than a letter from a kid who's gotten tossed from a hockey game.

sah67
A few people pointed out the "butt" guys to the usher

Traitors. (Not that the anal-obsessives sound like very interesting guys or that I would want to sit near them.)