Ticket Line Procedures

Athletics has posted an explanation over at:

[cornellbigred.ocsn.com]

I noticed that if you open the PDF file, there's some additional information in there that is not in the main article. Such as assembling time on Friday...



Post Edited (09-05-03 13:26)

Hey-

I'm a new student here, and I really want to know how this ticket thing works. I know you camp out, but after that, I'm lost. If someone could answer a few of my questions, it'd be great-

1) Where does the campout take place? In front of Barnes? In back?
2) How does this number system work? People walk down the like giving us numbers, then we pay, or what?
3) What's this random number check til 11 PM thing? We need to stand in line til 11?
4) What are the best seats at Lynah? I know that section B is the best, but the chances of me getting that are probably slim to none.

An answer to any or all of these questions would be greatly appreciated. Also, any stories that you might have of your campout experience would rock too.

Does anyone know if they're opening up the Ramin Room on Friday night again, and if the 4:45 thing is actually going to be enforced this year?

[Q]
1) Where does the campout take place? In front of Barnes? In back?
[/Q]
I've been gone a year and correct me if I'm wrong, but Barnes Hall is on Ho Plaza across from WSH and Gannett. From my recollection, the line is behind the field house (AKA Bartels Hall).

[Q]
2) How does this number system work? People walk down the line giving us numbers, then we pay, or what?
[/Q]
Yeah that's pretty much it.

[Q]
3) What's this random number check til 11 PM thing? We need to stand in line til 11?
[/Q]
If you really want tickets, standing in line isn't that bad. Besides it's a good time to get to know the other Faithful.

[Q]
4) What are the best seats at Lynah? I know that section B is the best, but the chances of me getting that are probably slim to none.
[/Q]
There aren't really any bad seats at Lynah. (except maybe Section O, if an opposing team brings their own band (Clarkson, Colgate, RPI)). There aren't any post-blocking obstructions and the glass is relatively new and doesn't contain those horrific dividers that tend to get in your way.

I had seats in the front row of Section B in 01-02. They were quite good, but it was sometimes hard to see the far corner. So with that said, higher up might be better.

Stories...hmmm....I think we watched a DVD on someone's laptop. We had an extension cord plugged into an outlet outside of the field house. Unfortunately campus safety showed up and told us our cord wasn't rated for "external use", so that ended that party. The other thing not-so-pleasant thing about that night was the constant threat of rain (it one of those 40 degree nights). But the Lynah experience was well worth it!



Post Edited (09-05-03 15:29)

Underskill,

A little birdie tells me they'll actually be distributing line numbers on Friday if there's a big enough crowd, like last year. A little birdie also tells me an early line will be acceptable near biotech. You guys better behave .

My gut feeling is that they'll start handing out line numbers sometime Friday night. Imagine if they stuck to what's on paper (line numbers being handed out Saturday morning)... then they'd have to police the line overnight, keep the integrity and order of the line intact, and I'd assume that it'd just be way too overwhelming. (And knowing Cornell... they'd really mess it up too)

They'll start the line numbers Fri. night like last year... that way everyone can get inside the Ramin room, find whatever place to camp out, and then wait it out... it worked last year, so don't fix it...

My only suggestion to make it better would be to start handing out line numbers very soon after the first allowable line is formed... say at like 5:30 - 6 pm, and then start the number checks that night.

No early lines at bio tech or anywhere else. There will be a conserted effort to disband any large groups that form around Bartels prior to 4:45.

sgt12,

i see from your net-id that you're with CUPD. thanks for the info. i showed up last year early friday morning, and officers and athletics personnell (very politely) asked me to leave and come back at 4, because no lines were permitted to form at all. i came back just before 4pm, and 200 people are waiting by biotech. subsequently, cupd and athletics (to avoid mayhem, i understand) allowed that line to move person-by-person to the official area. so i guess my question is, to what extent will this year's process really differ? as i'm sure you can understand, i don't want to be in a position where i listen to what the people in charge tell me, and then i get taken 200 spots for it.

and how will "stopping groups from disbanding anywhere near bartels before 445" prevent a mad rush at 445 to get to the official area?

i dunno what everyone else thinks, but it would seem to me that you'd have things alot safer if you let people gradually show. and that way, if someone wants to miss class, they're responsible adults and if they want to wait and extra hour or day, i don't see the harm.

any thoughts?

I'd agree with you, but the issue seems to hinge on the word "responsible". Groups of 10 people show up on Thursday morning and then members leave throughout the next couple days to go to classes (I talked to several people who did that). If you allow this to happen, how do you differentiate between the people coming back from class and the people joining a line with friends who had never been there before (aka: cutting)?



Post Edited (09-06-03 11:44)

it's easy- nobody leaves.
i wouldn't be against showing up thursday afternoon and staying out another night, if i knew that it would save me the stress of wondering what bizarre turn of events will occur which will cost me a spot, or many.

delta, how reliable is this little birdie? seems like we've got some conflicting information here on the board.

mike

Mike,

Yeah, I agree... but how do you enforce "nobody leaves" - or at least, "if they do, they don't come back". More important, how do you do it all night long without paying several people for 24 hours a day. If you can find a way that won't cost the athletics a good chunk of change, i would agree, but that's the problem. Each year they've said "nobody leaves" and each year people have done it cause they have no way to enforce it. So I say, nobody comes at all is the only reasonable way to go. I hope they have the balls to enforce it this time, but probably not.

Um, pretty reliable I would think. The birdie told me he talked to another birdie who is directly involved (very involved). I guess there could have been crossed wires, misstatements, or lies - I wouldn't mind if that was the case cause I don't want anyone showing up too early due to my above discussion, but we'll see.

-Fred

Mike, the biotech line last year was an attempt to prevent a mad rush at the official line formation time. If you just had groups wandering around the Bartel's area until 4:45 and then bolting to the front of the line, the result would be chaotic and possibly dangerous. At least with the biotech line, there was an orderly procession to the front of the line once the official line formed. I agree it sucked for the people who arrived right at the line time, but the blame for that falls on the administration, who created the procedure, then the people who started the biotech line. Those of us in the biotech line we merely trying to get some order for when the official line was created.

French, understood...

but, if it was you, planning the whole thing, how would you handle it that would work? I simply don't see a way.

-Fred

I don't know, I'm not proposing a correct way. I'm just saying people shouldn't criticize the biotech line when it's purpose and result was easing some of the troubles inherent in last year's (and this year's, more or less) procedure.

[Q]I don't know, I'm not proposing a correct way. I'm just saying people shouldn't criticize the biotech line when it's purpose and result was easing some of the troubles inherent in last year's (and this year's, more or less) procedure.[/Q]
I'm just saying people shouldn't criticize the current way if they don't have any idea how to do it better .

It 'eased' the trouble of what to do with people showing up early. It caused trouble however when it came to cutting latter on... rather than a "go to the end of the line" philosophy, you ran the risk of people saying "I've been here for 2 days already, but I had to leave for class"... so it's a trade off of 'a rush at 4:45' versus 'inability to effectively limit cutting all evening long'.

i'd rather wait in line all day friday then get in some mad rush at 4:45.

That's not exactly the point Mike...

The point is would you rather have a rush at 4:45, or would you rather get knocked back 10% in line position between 4:45 and whenever they hand out line numbers (I made a couple counts, I got knocked back from about 500 to over 550 last year from 7 pm to 12 am).



Post Edited (09-06-03 23:27)

If they aren't going to reward slavish loyalty by allowing people to start lining up as early as they like, I think all of the proposed (and implemented) solutions are a joke. They reward insiders and cheaters, not the most devoted. They should just do a lottery.

My solution? (Hey! Where did you go? Keep reading!) Announce the date of the sale. Let the fans line up as early as they like. Let a tent village rise up. Give numbers to whoever shows up - as soon as they show up. Allow people to hold up to three additional numbers (to allow people to attend class and rotate nights sleeping on line). Do random line checks (even if people start lining up a week early) and ding anyone that isn't there when a line check is done.

I am a transfer student so this is my first year at Cornell. I want season tickets to the hockey games (obviously, I am not the only one). I have picked up (yes, I am so intuitive!) that this experience can be a rather charged one on this campus. With that in mind, I am curious to hear from those seasoned-veterans if they could offer some thoughts on what things one should show up with when they start the camping-out process. Obviously a semi-comfortable chair and a blanket, but what else should I be thinking about?

Thanks to all. I am preparing myself mentally for the mayhem that will no doubt ensue shortly!

-N-

Well, also the usual stuff you'll need to sleep over - tooth bursh, contact solution if you got contacts. Bring some of your textbooks, since you'll be sitting around all Saturday, so it couldn't hurt to get some reading done. Alot of people bring TVs with video games / VCRs / DVDs, so if you and some friends have those that'll also help pass the time. And if you wanna get some exercise, a football or a frisbee to throw around couldnt hurt.

We go through this every year. Changes have been made over the last couple of years to try an avoid the meyheim that occurred a few years ago when people literally got trampled and crushed up against the fence behind the crescent.

The current process is the best that I've been involved with in my 15 years on the hill. It will be as sucsessful as the participants make it. If people try to circumvent the "spirit" of the process then there will be problems. If people respect the procedure then there should few if any complaints.

I understand people are passinate about the Big Red Hockey team, and they should be. Lets just use common sense and good judgement come Friday at 4:45.

I will see you all there - I won't be hard to find.

Sgt. Rich Gourley

We go through this every year. Changes have been made over the last couple of years to try an avoid the meyheim that occurred a few years ago when people literally got trampled and crushed up against the fence behind the crescent.

The current process is the best that I've been involved with in my 15 years on the hill. It will be as sucsessful as the participants make it. If people try to circumvent the "spirit" of the process then there will be problems. If people respect the procedure then there should few if any complaints.

I understand people are passinate about the Big Red Hockey team, and they should be. Lets just use common sense and good judgement come Friday at 4:45.

I will see you all there - I won't be hard to find.

Sgt. Rich Gourley

Any word on when the single ticket games will go on sale??

[Q]Any word on when the single ticket games will go on sale??[/Q]

Oct 15

Personally, I think that the system the Pep Band uses for distributing its tickets is pretty good. People earn priority points for attending events, with extra weight given non-hockey home games. That way, the most dedicated fans get tickets (well, it doesn't work out perfectly like that, since we have to balance different instruments, but to a first approximation), but instead of sitting around idly in the Ramin room, the line is replaced by attending other Cornell games, which are at least marginally entertaining. Plus, it's a great way to get enthusiastic fans to show up to some of the less popular sports.

I don't like that system exactly the way you described it. Hockey should be kept separate from all other sports, particularly since hockey is the only sport where students are charged. What I would recommend is that somehow the more hardcore fans of hockey can be rewarded in succeeding years, perhaps with getting the chance to get better seats in succeeding years, although I don't know how to do that without severely changing the campout process. The only way I've seen to make a reward system work was to give season ticket holders a chance to get Frozen Four tickets this past year (albeit via lottery).

Here's how you could work it. More points for more years you've had season tickets. Extra points for the away games that you've been to and even those can have different weights...like let's say 1 point for going to Harvard (since everybody tries to go there) and maybe 10 points for Princeton (since that's really far away and the Yale/Princeton hike is a pain).

5 points for having gone to lake placid
1 point for hitting a deer on the way up to lp
5 points for going to albany
10 points for the north country trip in the middle of break and the weather conditions are snow snow and some ice in between...

point numbers can be tinkered with. but there are some trips and some experiences that separate out the day to day fans and the crazy people, or I guess y'alls would refer to the crazy people as the hardcore. but, we're all just crazy.

Well, it's one thing to have season tickets and another thing to actually attend the home games. I knew plenty of people who were in my block of people (I wouldn't call them my friends so much as friends of friends of friends) who bought season tickets last year just for the Harvard game, and that's it. I didn't see them the rest of the season. (At least their other tickets went to some real fans, people I would describe as my friends.) By your system, those facetimers would receive the same amount of points as someone like me, who cheered harder than most others and tried to come up with unique ways to mock the opposing goalies. That doesn't seem quite fair, does it?

As for only awarding one point for going to the game at Harvard, while it is true that "everybody tries to go there", they're still some of the hardest away game tickets to acquire. (To be fair, I have a vested interest in changing that point, since the two games at Harvard I've attended make up 40% of my Cornell away games I've seen. Then again, I still get ten points for that away game at Princeton I've been to! )

Of course, I'd make recommendations that more points be added for regular eLF and USCHO posters.

Well, one possible way around this "mad bolt" scenario while discouraging people from lining up early would be to pool the people who are there say from 4:44 to 4:46, and assign those first n line numbers by random number selection. This would hopefully prevent people from rushing the head of the line, knowing that it would not change their chances of getting a higher line number as long as they were there at the "official" start time. Anyone who shows up from 4:46 and onward would form into a regular FIFO line, whose first number would be n+1. As far as I can see, this would be a fair way of distributing numbers to those who follow the rules and show up at the correct time, and also eliminate any advantage coming extra early would have. Any thoughts?

French Rage wrote:

Mike, the biotech line last year was an attempt to prevent a mad rush at the official line formation time. If you just had groups wandering around the Bartel's area until 4:45 and then bolting to the front of the line, the result would be chaotic and possibly dangerous. At least with the biotech line, there was an orderly procession to the front of the line once the official line formed. I agree it sucked for the people who arrived right at the line time, but the blame for that falls on the administration, who created the procedure, then the people who started the biotech line. Those of us in the biotech line we merely trying to get some order for when the official line was created.

That is perhaps the worst idea I have ever heard. Besides being a logistical nightmare, it is completely unfair. People who show up early aren't trying to break the rules, they simply want to make sure that they get the seat they desire. There is a reason why Section B has the dynamic it does. It is, for the most part, the people that are crazy about Cornell Hockey and are willing to wait several days to get those seats. The idea that someone who was there two minutes early gets a better number than someone that was there two days early is ridiculous. A system such as that would compromise the feverish atmosphere that is Lynah.

I like the system as it currenly stands. It is far from perfect, and I myself am uneasy at the idea that I may not be able to get back the seats that I have cherished for the past two seasons, but I just have to hope that the ticket line gods smile down on me.

i agree that the current system works, but I think it can be improved without resorting to random numbers. I'm still very uneasy about the official start time for the line at 4:45 pm... I just have a feeling that there's going to be a crazy mob or an unofficial line that they allow to form a bit before 4:45... hopefully I'll be proved wrong.

I think they should allow people to line up to get line numbers more or less whenever they choose... or just say you can get line numbers x days before you actually start the paying/seat selection process. And then once the line numbers are handed out... start doing random checks from that point on. I know Cornell will never do this because they can't condone missing class, but this is the student's choice to skip class, and frankly I think he/she has that right. And plus most students are responsible enough to borrow class notes from friends or work out some system of having friends hold line numbers while they attend class, etc... we're cornell students, we're smart enough to engineer that kind of system.

I know this is easier said than done, but if Duke can support Krzyzewski-ville... Cornell can support Lynah-ville.

IF they are not going to allow a Schaferville (baaaaaaaaad!) and IF you want to avoid a dangerous mad rush to the door at 4:45 (good), I think allowing a line to start forming at ~4:30 (4:40) and assigning random numbers to anyone already on line by, say 4:50 (I think your time tolerances are a little too tight, Cornell Fan) is an excellent solution.

Your response, Anthony, fails to appreciate that Cornell doesn't acknowledge two-day waits. If CUPD really is going to keep breaking up the lines, there is no reason to get there any earlier than they will allow the official line to form. If they AREN'T going to enforce the "no early lines" rule, then the whole "announcement" is a joke. The only way to make a bad rule worse is to enforce it haphazardly, thereby encouraging people to break it.

[Q] If they AREN'T going to enforce the "no early lines" rule, then the whole "announcement" is a joke. The only way to make a bad rule worse is to enforce it haphazardly, thereby encouraging people to break it.

[/Q]
Sadly this is exactly how Cornell has handled the situation the last few years.

I'll say what I've said the last few years; do it like the "old days". You have an official time and date, which is when the U starts maintaining it. However you let people (we still do think students are people, don't we?) start their own line whenever they want to, and they maintain it themselves.

This idea that you can't allow a line when classes are in session is ridiculous. They don't stop students from eating lunch, do they? You assume that they will make arraingements for someone else to take their place, when they need to.

That system worked well, except that tickets were then sold much later in the year and it was alot colder. When it got to be a line of a couple of cold nights it wasn't too nice. Now and especially this week that's a piece of cake.

All you need is an administration that will let students do it, and not worry about what a lawyer might say about the risk and students who are willing to police the unofficial line. When I had to stay in line we never had an official line. We set up our own rules which were decided upon by the first few people and went from there. I know that someone might say the first people would make the rules to fit themselves, but I doubt it would make a big difference. However you do always have to have someone there to keep a list and tell the rules to the new arrivals.

[Q]Your response, Anthony, fails to appreciate that Cornell doesn't acknowledge two-day waits. If CUPD really is going to keep breaking up the lines, there is no reason to get there any earlier than they will allow the official line to form. If they AREN'T going to enforce the "no early lines" rule, then the whole "announcement" is a joke. The only way to make a bad rule worse is to enforce it haphazardly, thereby encouraging people to break it.[/Q]
Very true... it also makes the assumption that fans who show up 3 days early are necessarily much better fans than those that 'only' show up 1 day early. I think I'm a pretty damn good fan, going to Albany, Buffalo, and garnering 10 points in Judy's system for the N.C. trip last year - 8 hrs from Ct.

Still, I'm not gonna camp out the night before I have to go to classes and/or skip classes to get tickets. Anyone who shows up by 4:45 pm on Friday is a pretty damn good fan and would make a fine section B-er. Showing up 3 days early indicates you're a very good fan, but it also indicates you care a bit less about class attendence and sleep. I think the random thing is a fine idea.

-Fred

[Q]This idea that you can't allow a line when classes are in session is ridiculous. They don't stop students from eating lunch, do they? You assume that they will make arrangements for someone else to take their place, when they need to.[/Q]
Only problem, that allows for massive amounts of cutting if you let people come and go... and unfortunately, that's a definite issue.

[Q]Only problem, that allows for massive amounts of cutting if you let people come and go... and unfortunately, that's a definite issue.[/Q]No you don't allow cutting. As I said you always have to have someone there to tell the rules and they keep a list of names, in order, and tell everyone when line checks will be held, etc.. Believe me, with bright enough students they can figure out a system to work.

[Q]No you don't allow cutting. As I said you always have to have someone there to tell the rules and they keep a list of names, in order, and tell everyone when line checks will be held, etc.. Believe me, with bright enough students they can figure out a system to work.[/Q]

The university was perfectly willing to do just this up until the stampede in '92. The orderly list of names that I signed the evening before didn't mean a whole lot the next morning when I couldn't take a full breath because of the crush of people. I'm sure the university views the complaints on the current system as minor compared to what they had to deal with then, and they were lucky it didn't turn out worse. Sure I would like to see the most faithful of the Faithful rewarded with good seats, but I don't want to see any of them get hurt in the process.

With what the university gets in revenue from hockey, there's no reason why they can't station a couple dozen rent a cops for line monitoring 2-3 days before the sale. Line people up outside, aggressively check the line, and yank the IDs of cutters until after the sale. Pretty simple.

How long you are willing to wait in line isn't a perfect proxy for dedication. But overall I suspect it's a pretty good one. It seems like a simple economic model - the more you want the tickets the more you are willing to pay (in time) to get them.

The university calendar says that there will be a band playing from 8-10PM in the Ramin room saying they will be joining the ticket line. Makes me think they will move people inside as soon as they start lining up. just my 2 cents

Apparently people are already lining up, well before 24 hours of the stated time... security? security??? Bueller?

someone confirm

That crowd will be dispersed before daybreak.

Confirmed. Don't ask me why I'm at work. There are about 15 people there starting an informal list.

Good to hear

I was just over to check out the line.

Cornell Police will be patrolling all night long behind Bartels. Their night shift starts at 11:00 and they are going to be strict about things. You will NOT lose your chance to buy tickets if you are asked to leave and you comply. If you are asked to leave, and/or are asked for your Cornell ID and you don't have it you will be disqualified from buying tickets.

At 3:00 PM tomorrow, the police will disperse any lines that are present. They would not say about how the period between 3:00 PM and 4:45 PM would be handled.

Currently, the line has moved over to behind Biotech. The people that got there first do have an informal list with signatures. The total number of people in line is currently 25.

The current list:

What is this list? If I wanna be in section B, when should I get there by. I was planning on 9 tomorrow morning. Should I go tonight?

Section B holds 200-something people, so there's certainly no danger yet

If it's not an official line, then it doesn't really matter. Is someone really going to say "No, you can't stand there in front of me because I signed this piece of paper last night"?

I sense a civil war about to erupt over that piece of paper.

I would hope the students at large would respect the paper. However, that paper won't prevent a select few @$$hole frat boys from cutting in line and getting better numbers when they're finally given out.

Right now, I'm just hoping me and my group of 30+ 'friends' can at least break into the middle of section D.

The list thing is pretty meaningless. THey're going to disperse everyone anyway at least one, and probably several more times before tomorrow at 4:45. People will wind up doing much better or worse than they deserve in terms of line numbers.

I'm sorry to sound harsh, but I have no reason and no intention to respect that piece of paper. Why should I? After all, the people who created it didn't respect the fact that we're all supposed to wait until 4:45 tomorrow. And besides, there isn't even any way to know for sure that all the people who "signed" their name on the list were actually there. It's meaningless and, as Justin pointed out, the crowd will be dispersed anyway.

Well I'm off to bed.....see you all in line

Avash, I understand your reasoning, and I personally am not going to stop you from trying to take an earlier place in line, but there are a few things you should probably consider:

1) When was the last time that people didn't attempt to line up before the pre-announced time? Not counting the lottery year(s? how many years was the lottery in existence? I was only around for the last lottery year), I'm fairly sure that there have always been people in the line before the line was meant to begin, at least in recent history.

2) I would think that a fair chunk of those 25 people, if not all of them, will be hanging around (or trying to hang around) Bartels and/or Biotech all day today, so if you're going to try to cut them, you're going to have to deal with them yourself. If there is a conflict like this and it resorts to violence, are CUPD and Athletics going to really sort things out, or are they just going to ban the whole lot of you from getting tickets?

3) See my prior post about those select few @$$hole frat boys.

Being #26 in line isn't so bad, since it still pretty much guarantees a seat or two in section B if you want it. Unless there's an overwhelming amount of people that don't collectively respect the list (probable, in which case, it's every man for himself--good luck!), it might serve you better to give the list some respect, especially since you're going to be sharing section B with them until February/March. Isn't it better to get along with your fellow faithful?

Again, I repeat, I have nothing personally to gain from respecting or disrespecting the list. I just want to see things go smoothly and keep from turning ugly.

As was said before CUPD will disperse any crowd that forms prior to the official start of the published procedure. So far the people that have been removed from the "unofficial" lines have been cooperative. We will continue this effort all day long and hope that level of cooperation remains the same. Our goal is to make the process as fair as it can be given the process that has been laid out. We support the Lyah Faithful and we hope that everything works out for the majority.

I had said that I would be there today - however my schedule has changed and I will not be able to attend. However I have faith that the officer(s) that will be there will maintain the same level of civility and cooperation.

The idea of this "unofficial list" is somewhat laughable.

The policy is quite clear -- no lining up before 4:45 PM. So someone who is there at 4:45 should have the same chance as being first in line as anyone who was there last night.

I won't be able to be there this year, but it should be interesting to see what happens. In reality, they should just let people lineup whenever they please. Just announce a time for handing out line numbers, and let folks line up as they please. Preventing people from lining up until a set time seems like a good recipe for another mad dash/stampede type scene.


Oh...and one last thing. If we're respecting unofficial lists, then I was there last Friday and wrote my name down on a piece of paper. So I'm #1

I agree with Jim on this whole mess - I can't see how self-policing the line would be that difficult. Thankfully, the only time I had to wait in line when I was on The Hill was for Harvard playoff tickets my senior year, but that seemed to work out fine. Of course, we did start that line and we, as season ticket holders, had tickets already (we just wanted to get enough seats to put our pledges in section O with the letters "W-E-S-U-C-K" painted on them, but that's another story ), so we were dealing with a much smaller crowd, but I can't remember any huge problems.

Maybe I'm getting naive at my old age , but I think it's being made more complicated than necessary.

Upon reflection, all good points (and I'm not a frat boy, I should also note) . Don't get me wrong, I want this afternoon to go smoothly too; hopefully it will.

Quick sidenote, last year I think I was #150 or something like that, and when I chose seats on Sunday morning, there were still seats left in the two back rows of Section B. I went with the sixth row of A on the aisle, but my point is that section B is still available for line numbers well after #25.

Late for class......

Aren't there a little over 300 seats in each section (except for the corner sections F and K)? So assuming each line number grabs two seats, #150 would still get into B, albeit as Avash stated, probably in worse parts of B.

I checked the line at about 8:30-8:40 and there seemed to be 30+ people there, most likely even more by now. I have no idea if they are on the unofficial list or not, though.

there are at least a couple hundred people there now... when I called to complain, athletics said there was little they could do, but the cops have been trying... grrr, I'm pissed

Yeah, so, there were probably 2000 people there by 4:45, the line stretched around the entire field behind the fieldhouse. They ran out of line numbers by the time they got to the second corner (the corner near Plant Sciences).

After 4 years of season tickets, I'm trying to redirect my bloody murderous range to something constructive... I am offering to buy spares off of absolutely anybody, up to two per game... you know, you people w/ tickets that aren't actually in town, etc.

-Fred

So, I guess the official madness has now started and anyone in a position to report here would need WiFi to do so. I'll just have to be patient . . .

But I have to admit - I really want to hear how this turned out. [Prediction: Badly.]

[Edit: Crazy. Fred put up his report as I was typing my prediction.]



Post Edited (09-12-03 17:47)

Cornell just committed a grave travesty. I was there an hour before the line was supposed to form and i still didnt get a number. The response i got was that they let the line form and turned a blind eye to it. So Cornell just let people not follow the rules f@ck people who listened to the rules and tried to obey everything so that it would run smoothly. Yet another huge mistake by this awful pathetic state school. Congratulations cornell, you blew this one worse than a murphy call.

A stellar job by Cornell athletics this afternoon. Upon arriving at 4:25 (thinking I shouldn't get there too early so my ID would not be taken away) I discovered about one thousand bright eyed students, mostly freshmen, already wrapping around the fence to the soccer fields. I guess having season tickets for the last three years, attending all the playoff games, and even cheering on the team in Estero means I wasn't as dedicated a fan as those students who went before 4:45.

The explanation from the poor guy who had to tell us all to go home was, "that's it, go home, this wasn't an official line anyway." When I asked about what would happen to the line numbers of students who were holding more than two, he said they weren't sure...some rumors were spreading about a similar line next weekend for any of the 800 line numbers that were confiscated and/or used to purchase only one ticket.

I guess I'll just sit in my room this season listening to radio broadcasts of a game taking place less than a mile away. I really can't think of a better way to spend my final year at Cornell.

Amen

DeltaOne81 '03 wrote:
Yeah, so, there were probably 2000 people there by 4:45, the line stretched around the entire field behind the fieldhouse. They ran out of line numbers by the time they got to the second corner (the corner near Plant Sciences).

Holy crap. I suspect that by having 4:45 be the earliest time you could get line numbers, they planted in people's mind that the sale in some sense started at 4:45 Friday rather than whenever they actually sell the tickets. I wonder what the attrition rate for this line will be; some sizeable fraction may actually drop out over the weekend. (Were all 2000 willing to camp out all that time, or were they not looking past Friday? Also, you could probably get people to drop out of the line by letting them know Lenny had turned pro.) Of course, if they have no more line numbers, they can't keep track of the post-line waiting list.

I was going to say the only thing that made sense, if they insisted on "dispersing" lines that formed before 4:45, was to assign everyone there at that time random numbers at the start of the line. Not having a plan meant assuming a negligible number of people would be there then, which anyone with any sense knew would not be the case. However, I don't think anyone expected that more people would be there this afternoon than could buy tickets in the end. In that case, randomizing doesn't work, or it basically becomes a lottery with the added element of having to camp out after the lottery to earn your tickets.

Under these circumstances, it seems like the only solution is to let people line up as early as they want. RPI students used to camp out for a week back in the old days. I don't think fiascos like the 1992 stampede are an argument against self-policed lines. As I recall, part of what led to that was that the University deliberately kept the location of the distribution a secret until the last minute. It seems like letting people line up over the course of time is a lot less of an invitation to chaos than trying to surprise them or making them wait until the last minute to line up, or telling them you they can't line up and then not enforcing it.

I do sort of wish Cornell had a "live view of the ticket line" on their website.

John T. Whelan '91 wrote:
As I recall, part of what led to that was that the University deliberately kept the location of the distribution a secret until the last minute. It seems like letting people line up over the course of time is a lot less of an invitation to chaos than trying to surprise them or making them wait until the last minute to line up, or telling them you they can't line up and then not enforcing it.

That is what I recall also, John. I was a grad student during Fall '92, so I didn't bother getting on line early. (I was told I would be the eqivalent of a freshman, not a senior.) IIRC '91 was also a stampede/fiasco, but I was in DC for the fall semester and didn't wait then either.

I also think you have the conclusion exactly right. In an effort to avoid having people camp out they are finding a new way to get it wrong every year. While I respect their creativity (could you think of a new superficially-satisfactory-but-ultimately-disastrous way to line up every year?), I am disappointed that they won't do the easiest and most fair thing.

The way you avoid a weeks-long line is to announce the location of number distribution 2 or 3 days before the number distribution itself. Announce it by having the location posted in Teagle at 6AM or so but DO NOT GIVE THE INFORMATION TO THE DAILY SUN (the staffers always leaked the info, so there would be a line before the papers got delivered). And keep the location tightly under wraps until the announcement. Shouldn't be too hard to do. You have two days to set up a table where you are claim the line will be, and all you need is a table to give out the numbers - ticket sales will be done, as always, at Lynah and can be done at a later date.



Post Edited (09-12-03 18:57)

Personally I think they need to figure out why the hell 3x as many people lined up this year. Yeah, the team was really good, but there's gotta be more to it.

One idea... the line was two weeks earlier this year... school work hasn't really picked up, no prelims... if they did it at the end of September like they usually do, you'd get worse weather and more stressed students. I bet it'd decrease numbers by a factor of 2.

Exactly. The people who followed the published rules were essentially punished (for getting there "too late", while those who flaunted those rules by arriving hours/days in advance were rewarded with a line number.

I didn't understand why they only handed out 800 line numbers. Now if people don't buy their two tickets or drop/get kicked out of line, there will be a surplus of tickets and no clear/fair way of distributing them among the 2000+ other people who were there at 4:45 waiting (other than holding another ticket line at a future date, god forbid).

I said it before and I'll say it again, IF they are going to establish an "official" start time before which nobody is supposed to line up, the only fair way to distribute line numbers to those who are there at the official start time is by random number assignment. People showing up after the start time would just form a line starting with the next number above the highest number of the pre-4:45 batch. And make sure you give numbers to everyone who is there, just warn the people with numbers above 800 (or some other reasonable number) that there is a strong possibility that they will not receive tickets unless a significant number of people drop out.

Great job Cornell... Gene, I'll accept your letter of resignation anytime.

[Q]And make sure you give numbers to everyone who is there, just warn the people with numbers above 800 (or some other reasonable number) that there is a strong possibility that they will not receive tickets unless a significant number of people drop out.[/Q]
Nah, that's no good. You don't want people standing there for a day before finding out they can't get tickets. The only saving grace of today was that I didn't wait more than an hour before officially finding out there was no hope. If people drop out they should do a lotto or simply a single day line...
"Oh, btw, we have 200 extra sets of tickets, on sale tomorrow at 8 am at the ticket office" - preferably where 'tomorrow' is a Saturday.

Oh yeah, another thing, if you are one of the people who got screwed over big time this year by the procedure, or just don't like what happened, give Gene Nighman and Athletics an earful via phone or email. I know I will be.

Nighman was quoted in the Sun on 9/10 as saying "... I have a directive from the upper administration not to schedule anything during classes. The official line can't start until 4:45 p.m. on Friday" (emphasis mine). Oh really? Then how come there was a 1000+ person line formed at least one hour before 4:45? How come the "official line" developed directly out of this supposedly illegitimate line?

Another issue was cutting in this unofficial line. Nighman is also quoted as saying "I'm going to have totally strict security behind Bartels. No one is coming in and out. There's not going to be any cutting in line this year." That's laughable, considering I saw at most two security officers, who were just standing near the front of the line. As far as I could see, the entire long side of the fields fence along Tower Road was not policed at all. During the two and a half hours I waited in line before being told they were out of line numbers, I saw a steady trickle of cutters moving forward from the back of the line, apparently realizing it was the only way they'd get a half-decent number (if any number at all). If the organizers are going to be understaffed and not enforce their own published rules, they should at least come right out and say it so people aren't so surprised when reality hits.

Disgraceful, from what I'm reading.

Simply disgraceful.

wow. holy shit! that freaking sucks. sorry y'all. if the front of the line is composed mostly of clueless freshmen then lynah is going to suck big time this year. i'm surprised that there were that many people around - even with last year's appearance at the frozen four. what i'm not surprised at is the incompetence of the ticket office yet again. the all should be fired and the sun should be bombarded with complaints. the sun can't ignore the masses and at the very least the AD should be embarassed and scolded publically.

Btw, for people who don't think cutting should be a major concern in a self-monitored line (or, at least, it could be self-monitored), I have these numbers for you...

Some people who got there and was 80 initially, ended up 280. Someone else who counted and said they were about 200 when they got there, ended up 450. I also heard a story from the unofficial line where some frat (sorority?) used one guy to hold a place for 30.

I think the only way to do it is to give out line number immediately. That way you can't have cutting. Anything else is a joke

Does anyone know if there's truth to the rumor that Athletics advertised heavily to the frosh?

... dumbasses

Btw, Sarge... I'm not saying you didn't mean it when you said it, but looks like what you said turned out to be total bullshit, huh?

For more quotes from Gene, here's a link to the whole Sun story:
[www.cornelldailysun.com]

I have yet to hear a valid reason as to why the line can't be done like it was at RPI back in the day. "It's contradictory to the mission of the University" isn't a valid reason or explanation to me. These people are probably more concerned with liability than anything else. If so, have the line members sign a release. But this trend of Athletics setting a procedure, and then not following that procedure is getting tiring.

If they're going to lie, they might as well make it interesting. Tell everyone to line up in front of Bartells, then at 4:45 announce that the line numbers are waiting for them at Noyes, fire a shotgun in the air, and watch the "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World" chase scene ensue.

Yeah, so I got screwed over too, but potentially I'm getting screwed over even worse than the people who were told to go home. You see, my group of people was cut right in half by the assignment of #800, effectively giving half our people the line numbers we need. Somehow, we eliminated people who really didn't want to be there and also acquired some additional numbers ahead of us in line to make our new, reduced group work. However, the numbers we were given suggest that, since there are 1528 student seats, only the first 764 numbers are guaranteed to get seats, since most likely most people will purchase two seats and have a rotation system where they don't have to be in Bartels 100% of the time. We're basically hoping that (a)enough people only take one seat, and/or (b)enough people miss their line checks. I heard a rumor that numbers 10 and 11 missed their first line check, which is good. However, evil, evil Gene (I'm sorry I ever tried to defend that guy in the past) told me that last year, maybe 12-15 people actually missed their line checks, which doesn't make me feel any more pleasant.

Basically, the reason I feel the most screwed over is that I have to do all the waiting for a still very little chance of getting the tickets my group needs. And, more likely than not, even if we do get the right number of seats, they won't be all together, probably strewn throughout F and G.

[q]if the front of the line is composed mostly of clueless freshmen then lynah is going to suck big time this year.[/q]

Awwwwwww SEE YA! Assgoos!!!

not only did i go to all of the home games last year and spend a lot of money to buy tickets so i could cheer cu hockey on at the froxen four game in buffalo... but i sat in my one stupid class today wanting to sprint out and run to lynah to get in line and stay there for 32+ hrs... but i didnt run out and instead waited through the class and then another hr after it because i stupidly half-listened to the warning about getting there before 4:45... i got there @ 3:15 and was probably around 1000th in line... by 5 when we were all told to go home there were probably another 1000+ behind me in line.... what is wrong with this picture? someone messed up and now we're all paying for it by having to sit home instead of cheer on our favorite team this year

Well I'll give my take/version of the unprecedented chaos and commotion that took place today - mostly for the benefit of those who weren't there to see it. When I showed up at 12:45, a list of approximately 350 people (unofficial, of course) had been created. Despite the odd fact that there were no more than 50 people actually present at this time, I signed the list anyway. While we were all standing around and talking/wondering what the afternoon would hold, a guy came up and motioned for the list, presumably to sign it. Then, to the surprise of everyone, he sprinted (and I mean SPRINTED) off with it to a getaway car (allegedly). It was quite a moment!

So, with the list gone, people began to form a line along the fence at the west end of the practice fields. By the time I ran back to my apartment to pick up my chair, books, etc. and came back to stand in line, there were NO MORE than 100 people in front of me in line. At about 2PM, a police officer came by and said to everyone that this line would be honored as legitimate, which I'm sure is a point of concern for those folks who showed up at 4:45. To the dismay of everyone behind them in line, the first 50-100 people did an awful job of policing the front of the line; there was hardly any sense of order, save for the voices of a few intelligent people (you know who you are - good job, I mean it.). Basically, it was like a bad Cornell version of Lord of the Flies. By the time 4:45 rolled around, approximately 130 people "cut" in front of me; indeed, a few assholes held spots for upwards of 20 people each. As Jordan said - "disgraceful." Line cutting happened all over the place though, moving people who initially would have had a line number of about 600 to well past 800 and without a chance of being able to stay the night - simply unfair, and I feel really really bad for people who showed up when they were supposed to. And indeed, there were probably about 2000 people there and probably was the largest crowd to ever watch a women's lacrosse practice (and is it in fact the largest number of people to ever show up the hockey ticket line?)

Well the bottom line is, they really really screwed this one up. I know I can't possibly be as angry/upset as those of you who can't get tickets this year, but I am nevertheless disgusted with how the Athletics department and the CUPD handled the situation today. The Sgt. who posted here said that even though he could not make it, he was confident that his peers would handle the situation well. They didn't and should be ashamed of themselves. And a lot of people aren't getting tickets because of them and because of the jerks - and I'm only referring to the people who showed up at 3 or 3:30 and weasled their way into the front of the line, not the people who legitimately were there before - towards the front of the line. I'll stop JUST SHORT now of hoping that a puck hits you in your fucking heads while you're sitting in your undeserved Section B seat. I was lucky, but you ruined it for a lot of people further back in line.

Well my shift starts in the morning, so I'm off to bed.....

Yeah... they could have just started handing out line numbers from the back of the line at 4:45, would kinda make sense too...

But anyway, I noticed a bunch of line cutting, and I was all the way at the back for a while. I stood there, helpless, as perhaps ten or twenty people jumped infront of a friend. What could I do myself? I said that they should go to the back of the line, but nobody cared. After the line stopped moving, I was still over by the track field, so I sat down and did some chem, all while the line cutters were talking about how dumb I was. Oh well, they didn't get tickets either.

I'm a local myself, so I've been to a sufficient number of hockey games already (I'm a freshman too). I'm quite saddened, though, that I won't be a part of the Lynah faithful this year. I'm also quite saddened that at an institution that is able to produce extremely successful individuals, and that is able to crank out top-notch research, cannot find a way to make rules to sell 1,500 tickets and stick to them.

Well, there's always next year.

Not true. We removed over 350 people from the "unofficial line" from Thursday night/Friday morning. When I left campus at 10:30 am Friday morning we had just removed whatever was left of the line that had formed. When I got back to campus at 4:00 pm I was very disappointed at what I saw.

One officer, which is what was hired by athletics, was simply not enough to deal with the crowd. Remember, we didn't make the rules, we just tried to enforce 'em.

The real shame is that those people who did follow the rules got penelized. I half jokingly had mentioned that they should have started handing out the line numbers starting with the back of the line. But reality is that would have started a riot.

One othr thing, President Lehmen had encouraged all the freshman to wait in line for the hockey tickets during one of the orientation sessions - hench my belief in the large contingent of the class of '07.

I'm dissapointed that some deserving and loyal fans got the short end - but there is another 364 days before the next sale and that leaves time for discussion and compromise so that it is not repeated.

for anyone looking to vent, here's the AD feedback site - let them have it.

[cornellbigred.ocsn.com]

I personally would request having the line numbers invalidated and a new process reinstated for next weekend with someone hired by the AD to be there from now through then, giving out numbers as people arrive and doing a line check every 2-3 hrs. this way no one could cut line. it would also get rid of all the freakin bandwagoners. this is by far the worst mess ever made of the line procedure. the whole dept is composed of freakin morons. i despise them ... and i am 3 hrs away from the whole situation and had no intention of trying to get student season tix this year. I can't imagine how those of you who've been screwed by the system feel - esp poor fred.

Screw the AD ... before they screw you AGAIN!

Thank you Sgt. Gourley for at least some explanation. True, we can always try to make it better next year (I'm sure a lot of us were discussing more 'perfect' systems throughout yesterday), but the question is, will Athletics listen?

I knew I wouldn't like President Lehman from the getgo...this just confirms it...

ok. so i got very little sleep, am up early and now find myself really frustrated for all of you who got screwed. having an immense dislike for the AD stretching back several years only makes me angrier. thus i composed the following and e-mailed it to the AD.

You guys messed up BIG TIME ... yet again. You make line rules and then make no efforts at enforcing them. Now you are left with a body of season ticketholders more into the line and socializing than the sport - mostly clueless freshmen out to party for the week-end with no idea of the tradition of fans at the game and no desire to watch the sport itself. All the loyal fans followed the stupid 4:45 rule - not wanting to risk having their ID noted and being forbidden from getting tickets at all. As a result, those following the rules and respecting the AD (why, no one really knows as past experience has all of us doubting your competency) got screwed. It sucks and is horribly unfair.

Hell has already broken loose. However, if you want to prevent the public backlash and lambasting that will most certainly ensue, I highly recommend invalidating the line numbers given out, setting the sale up for next week-end and hiring people (more than a single rent-a-cop ... only a complete moron would expect one man to control a crowd of 2000 and prevent line cutting, etc) to police the line from now till then. Numbers should be handed out as people arrive (yes - ARRIVE - thus cutting the line isn't an issue). Thus only those who really want the tickets and are willing to camp out long enough will be rewarded for their dedication and efforts. Then and only then will you truly have the Lynah faithful.

Everyone knows that the Lynah atmosphere is a great selling point when it comes to recruiting. Well recruiting this year was just made more difficult. Based on early evaluations of those composing the line and on the large number of faithful that have been sent home without a line number with the current system (if one can even call the unorganized mess that went down a system of sorts) I’m willing to hazard a guess that you just lost the special atmosphere. The clueless freshmen will lose interest after the first week-end and you’ll have a half filled Lynah for most of the season … so great work. Congrats on yet another completely unsuccessful line.

It isn’t too late to fix the huge mistakes you’ve made. Please invalidate the numbers and sell again next week-end …this time without a “don’t line up before” time. Let the fans show you what being “failthful” really means.


I might forward the recruitung part to the coach ... cause it might certainly end uo being a valid point and at that point he really should step in. have a great day all.

The Pepband and I will have the privilege of visiting the line later today, but based on what I've read here, I have some thoughts:

1) Giving the pikers and potential facetimers the benefit of the doubt, the reports of 2000 people in the line at 4:45 would equate to the Athletic department being able to sell 4000 season tickets just to students. I think this speaks strongly for arguments that have been made in favor of getting a new, expanded rink.

2) Another way to fit more people into fewer seats would be this: sell separate sets of season tickets for Fridays and Saturdays. Dedicated fans could buy both, while people with less interest or less money might buy just one.

3) If we want to take willingness to wait in line as a fair indicator of ones enthusiasm for the team, there is a way to measure this without having to deal with policing a pre-4:45 line. Instead of having a set end time (when tickets are actually purchased) and a badly defined start time (when people start lining up), have a fixed start time, before which anyone interested in season tickets must report to, say, Barton or Newman Arena.

After the official start time, nobody else is let in, and ticket office people take a census of everyone there. Over the next several days, the less dedicated people give up and leave, ticketless. When they get down to 800 or so, Athletics starts handing out the equivalent of line numbers to people as they leave, in reverse order. The people who wait the longest, therefore, get the best numbers. If it goes on for a couple days, maybe they just assign everyone left random numbers.

A week later or so, once everyone has had time to recover, do the actual ticket sales, starting with the people who had waited longest. There are lots of ways to do this--it could even be done by phone or online.

-Shorts

so after all these issue with line forming times, i'm thinking back to some of the bigger concerts the concert commision has put on. i remember, maybe 5 or 6 years ago, dave matthews performed at cornell. people began to line up FIVE DAYS before they gave out ticket numbers. there was no "official" line forming time, nor did anyone die from being outside, not going to classes, etc. people got tents and camped out. people policed themselves (shocking, i know) for 5 days.

if they are going to continue to do the hockey sale in early september while the weather is warm, why not just let people camp out? i understand there is some liability issue for the school, but if we can do it for concerts, why not for hockey tickets? set a time for line numbers to be handed out, but don't set any "official" line up time, because as we've seen for the past few years, this flat out doesn't work.

i'm also surprised that no one (at least this year) has paralled the hockey sale to Duke basketball ticket sales (or any other major sport at another university). people camp outside and wait in line for tickets. i think someone from the athletic department at Cornell should get on the phone and call up someone at Duke and find out how Duke handles the basketball season ticket sale. there are MANY schools across the country that have wildly popular athletic teams, and i can't imagine that they all have the problems that continue to plague Cornell's hockey ticket sale. Call up Duke and ask about bball season ticket sales. Call up PSU and ask about football season ticket sales. Call up Michigan and see how they handle hockey season ticket sales. Come on Cornell, get with it and fix this problem.

ok. maybe i'm a sucker for punishment but ... i like this idea!!!

Invalidating the line numbers now is just going to lead to a riot. Even though I assume most of the people with the good line numbers don't deserve them at all, they are complete jerks and thus will completely go beserk if they announce that the numbers have been invalidated and that everything will just happen again next week.

What I just thought of now is.... why is it that when tickets for a concert or lecture event go on sale at Willard Straight, they go on sale at 9 AM on a school day? Isn't that contrary to the mission of Cornell University? I've seen the line for such tickets extend all the way from the Straight to around the library entrances. I'm sure that at least some people in line are sacrificing a class or 2 in order to get the tickets they want. I know that obviously the demand for concert tickets and the demand for hockey tickets is different, but if Cornell lets concert tix go on sale at 9 am, they ought to let the official line for hockey tickets form during the school day. You don't have to call it the "official" line, but patrol it well, make sure it's fair and not being cut into, and all will be well. It's a student's right to skip class if he/she chooses. 1 day of missed class in the long run is insignificant.

Gene, if you somehow keep your job after this mess, I suggest you take a field trip and call up any big school with a high-demand sport (for example, Duke men's basketball) and study what works there and how it could be applied here. Maybe I'll do that for you and include it in that complaint letter I'm gonna send to you and the AD.

And let me copy and paste a direct quote from you that was in the Cornell Daily Sun:

"I'm going to have totally strict security behind Bartels. No one is coming in and out. There's not going to be any cutting in line this year."

You're going to do this with ONE policeman? That's what you call extra security??? I think there are hundreds of Faithful ready to put their feet in your mouth.

Ah Dan, you got many of my points posted as I was writing mine... great minds think alike.

I am sorry to see that some of the forum's most faithful contributors have been shut out of tickets from this year's system. I can tell you that a lot of people I have talked to in the Ramin Room are buying a second ticket with the intention of selling it. If you guys really want to get tickets, I would recommened going to the Ramin Room and asking around. You may have to pay a little more for the tickets, but you can definitely get them.

I've heard the same thing about people selling their tickets around the Ramin room today; ask around - you may be pleasantly surprised. (The most shocking sale I witnessed yesterday, by the way, was when a girl paid 500 dollars for a line number of about 220.)

Furthermore, I didn't have season tickets my freshman year, but I went to 11 games anyhow; now I know that was a different season with different circumstances surrounding it, but all I'm saying is that it will be possible for some of you to go to games this year. And whenever I myself have an extra ticket or when I hear of a friend of mine having an extra ticket, I promise I'll post it here before anywhere else. Also - single game tickets go on sale (I believe) on Oct. 15. That may be an opportunity to buy some seats for several games, albeit at a little higher of a price.

I have an idea. Make Lynah bigger or build another rink. Sure, I've been a loyal fan for years and I love Lynah and it's tradition. But clearly demand outpaces supply here and THERE'S NO REASON FOR THAT. Just build a rink with 1,000 or so more seats and you'll never have these issues.

One thing is true... you can't have a bigger rink and have the same asinine procedure as you had this year...

500 dollars for a line number??? If it's some frat boy jerk that is *profiting* from this now, that's beyond belief.

when the guy came past us and told us all to go home he said that the rule was never enforced and no one was sent home thursday or friday... he said "people came on wednesday, what were we supposed to do?"... to me it sounded like there was never any attempt made to enforce the rules.

Every year, they say:
1. We'll dispurse any lines that start forming before this time.
2. The area will be heavily patrolled before that time.

What happens:
1. People start forming unofficial lines anticipating the official line
2. There's a couple of security people on hand who don't send the people in the unofficial line home
3. People who follow the rules get screwed.

So lessons learned:
1. People in charge of ticket distribution keep saying that they're tinkering with the system and have a better system than last year but there really hasn't been a change in the posted rules or how tose rules are really enforced
2. Just show up as early as possible and keep trying back if you want those tickets.

Have I missed anything?