NCAA regionals 2011

dag14
The bulldogs v. the bulldogs. What is the statistical likelihood of that occurring? One of you must know....

One or two seasons ago, Yale played a RS road game at Duluth. The UMD broadcast team obviously reflexively kept talking about the Bulldogs, and one partner eventually blithely pointed out to the other that Yale is also the Bulldogs. The partner's response was a very homeriffic "Well, only our team is the REAL Bulldogs, har har..."

Ben
I know we shouldn't be talking about hockey, but UMD just scored a sweet shorthanded goal against Yale.

Ya... UMD looks good right now. Also, can't believe Miami just lost to UNH... With BC's embarrassing loss yesterday, my braket is screwed.

Edit: BTW, can't believe Barry is advocating to give the puck away on a delayed penalty... does he not know that you can pull the goalie for an extra attacker?

ajh258

Ben
I know we shouldn't be talking about hockey, but UMD just scored a sweet shorthanded goal against Yale.

Ya... UMD looks good right now. Also, can't believe Miami just lost to UNH... With BC's embarrassing loss yesterday, my braket is screwed.

Denver pulled one back on the power play, it's 2-1 for the chance to get beaten up by NoDak. I need Denver to come through for my bracket.

2-0 UMD on a slapshot from the point.

Denver pulled it back to 2-2 and then had a shot trickle JUST wide of the post with one second left. Overtime.

This tournament sucks.

3-0 UMD on a questionable Yale penalty, no matter what Barry Melrose says.

UMD 3-0 - PP goal. Yale's basically gone.

Oh for fuck's sake Yale.

Finally. 3-1 UMD.

Clear head-to-head contact on that hit. Yale with a 5 minute major, game misconduct.

Wow, that was a bullshit call. O'Neill had his hands down, and there's no way that he was using his helmet to hit the guy.

O'Neill - DQ, contact to the head. He did kind of bump the other player's head with his own head.

4-1

4-1 UMD. 5 minute major still going.

I'm blind, I'm deaf...

Another penalty against Yale. 5 on 3.

They deserve to lose this game for being so undisciplined. What a bad time to choose to play this way.

O'Neill went in for a clean body hit. It was the UMD player's head that thrust into O'Neill's, not vice versa. This wasn't a case of a footballer lowering the crown of his helmet on an opponent.

5-1 UMD, still 5-4 for another 3:29.

Jordan 04
O'Neill went in for a clean body hit. It was the UMD player's head that thrust into O'Neill's, not vice versa. This wasn't a case of a footballer lowering the crown of his helmet on an opponent.

Maybe: it was hard to tell from the replay. I think the call was questionable, but not completely unreasonable given the video evidence.

Edit: by "completely unreasonable" I mean "obviously wrong".

Completely disagree. His head snapped based on the body hit, but there was absolutely no initial contact to the head. It was a dreadful call. Both the announcers disagreed (not that Barry Melrose holds much weight)... but it was an absolutely dreadful call. *Maybe* *maybe* you could argue a 2 (and still be wrong), but a 5 and a game for a clean open ice hit?

any close call like that hit is going to go that way given the crackdown on headshots now though. Besides, watching Yale choke this away is pretty amusing.

Yale on PP. Hopefully they can get something started.

underskill
Besides, watching Yale choke this away is pretty amusing.

I will derive enjoyment from the outcome either way, but all things being equal, I would rather see Yale win.

underskill
any close call like that hit is going to go that way given the crackdown on headshots now though. Besides, watching Yale choke this away is pretty amusing.

I would normally agree, but the refs just did a wonderful job of bringing me firmly into Yale's camp.

assuming the score does hold up, it does lend some support to the idea that the way for ECAC teams to compete nationally is through defense and goaltending, b/c no matter how talented you are offensively, it won't hold up against the WCHA teams' skill level.

Kyle Rose

Jordan 04
O'Neill went in for a clean body hit. It was the UMD player's head that thrust into O'Neill's, not vice versa. This wasn't a case of a footballer lowering the crown of his helmet on an opponent.

Maybe: it was hard to tell from the replay. I think the call was questionable, but not completely unreasonable given the video evidence.

Edit: by "completely unreasonable" I mean "obviously wrong".

Under the rules, it absolutely is "obviously wrong." I don't see how anyone looking at the replay can claim that O'Neill "directly targeted" the UMD players head and neck area. It's just not the case.

underskill
assuming the score does hold up, it does lend some support to the idea that the way for ECAC teams to compete nationally is through defense and goaltending, b/c no matter how talented you are offensively, it won't hold up against the WCHA teams' skill level.

You know, I was thinking instead about how UMD doesn't look all that skilled but looks hard-nosed and, to use that word, "systems"-oriented. They're doing a great job of plugging up the neutral zone and reducing the effects of Yale's speed. And they're almost brutalizing Yale off the ice. Now, I think there has been some borderline stuff that UMD has been doing (destabilizing pushes from behind, some holding along the boards) that has gone uncalled, but I've really been sitting here thinking, "We can/have done that. Why couldn't we this year?"

Scersk '97
Now, I think there has been some borderline stuff that UMD has been doing (destabilizing pushes from behind, some holding along the boards) that has gone uncalled, but I've really been sitting here thinking, "We can/have done that. Why couldn't we this year?"

Agreed.

Jordan 04
claim that O'Neill "directly targeted" the UMD players head and neck area.

Is that what the rule says? I admit to complete ignorance on the precise rules related to head hunting. If that's the case, then I agree: it was a bad call.

A rule-neutral justification for it being a bad call is this: watching it again, it's not clear who hit whom. It looks like one of those cases in which one player gets called for a penalty because the other guy went down.

Scersk '97

underskill
assuming the score does hold up, it does lend some support to the idea that the way for ECAC teams to compete nationally is through defense and goaltending, b/c no matter how talented you are offensively, it won't hold up against the WCHA teams' skill level.

You know, I was thinking instead about how UMD doesn't look all that skilled but looks hard-nosed and, to use that word, "systems"-oriented. They're doing a great job of plugging up the neutral zone and reducing the effects of Yale's speed. And they're almost brutalizing Yale off the ice. Now, I think there has been some borderline stuff that UMD has been doing (destabilizing pushes from behind, some holding along the boards) that has gone uncalled, but I've really been sitting here thinking, "We can/have done that. Why couldn't we this year?"

Except, its being done by a 3d seeded, good but usually second tier program in UND against supposedly the deepest, most offensively skilled ECAC team in how long?

And they're headed to a 2nd OT in Green Bay. North Dakota must be quite pleased.

Rondeau pulled.

Kyle Rose

Jordan 04
claim that O'Neill "directly targeted" the UMD players head and neck area.

Is that what the rule says? I admit to complete ignorance on the precise rules related to head hunting. If that's the case, then I agree: it was a bad call.

A rule-neutral justification for it being a bad call is this: watching it again, it's not clear who hit whom. It looks like one of those cases in which one player gets called for a penalty because the other guy went down.

The rule book makes it pretty clear that the targeting of the head is the issue.

A player shall not target and make contact with an opposing
player’s head or neck area in any manner (including, but not limited to, with
the shoulder, stick, elbow, etc.).

PENALTY—Major and game misconduct or disqualification at the
discretion of the referee.

...

Any contact which directly targets the player’s head and neck area must be
penalized with a major penalty and a game misconduct or disqualification.

There are further clarifications that contact initiated on the body that results in incidental contact to the head does not constitute a major penalty. While in this case I think the heads technically touched before the bodies, I think it's clear that O'Neill's intent -- based on the position of his arms, hands, and elbows -- was to initiate body contact, and he certain was not targeting the head.

underskill
against supposedly the deepest, most offensively skilled ECAC team in how long?

Not just "most offensively skilled", but "insanely talented".

This must make UMD "


ludicrously talented".

nyc94
Rondeau pulled.

Odd.

Jordan 04

nyc94
Rondeau pulled.

Odd.

Nick Maricic is in. Sophomore, played in only two games this year for 36:31. Last played January 29 against RPI.

5-2....game on?

Still going in 2 OT between Denver and Western Michigan.

One of the things that impresses me about the Yale D is how, whenever they're clearing the zone or sweeping up a rebound, they're moving somewhere. There's motion out of the zone rather than just standing around.

Scersk '97
One of the things that impresses me about the Yale D is how, whenever they're clearing the zone or sweeping up a rebound, they're moving somewhere. There's motion out of the zone rather than just standing around.

Strongly agreed. This is one of the things that I liked about Brendon Nash: except when he brought the puck behind the net to set it up, he never stood around looking like a deer in the headlights.

5-3 UMD. Yale may yet be in this one.

5-3 and game on indeed. Miracle comeback anyone?

Denver wins 3-2 with 8 minutes left in the 2nd OT. WMU had some good chances a few minutes before, but Denver must be totally exhausted and probably easy opponents for NoDak tomorrow.

And that, as they say, is that. 5-3 UMD final.

RichH

dag14
The bulldogs v. the bulldogs. What is the statistical likelihood of that occurring? One of you must know....

One or two seasons ago, Yale played a RS road game at Duluth. The UMD broadcast team obviously reflexively kept talking about the Bulldogs, and one partner eventually blithely pointed out to the other that Yale is also the Bulldogs. The partner's response was a very homeriffic "Well, only our team is the REAL Bulldogs, har har..."

"Who are we?"
"The Wildcats!"
"Who are we gonna beat?"
"The Wildcats!"

I think that the refs in college tend to call a penalty for "hitting too hard" and worry about justifying it later. It seems that every hit that makes you jump out of your seat and cheer is a major penalty, if not a game misconduct.

Yale goes down, RPI goes down, Union goes down. We'll be listening to "EZAC" for another year. That was a spectacular way for Yale to crash: Brian O'Neill scores to bring Yale back to 3-1 down then he gets a 5-minute major and game misconduct moments later, UMD scores a quick 2 to make it 5-1, and Yale can only get 2 goals back. And Rondeau gets yanked. Too bad. I thought Yale had the stuff to go all the way.

Michigan looked good tonight against CC. Very (pre-2011) Cornell-like how they basically shut down CC once they had a lead and allowed very few shots on goal. CC showed flashes of life at the end and might have been able to tie, but a questionable penalty call with ~3 mins remaining pretty much sealed the deal for Michigan.

Michigan fans had a nice "black hole" cheer at one point. I'm guessing we can take credit for that.

Kyle Rose
Greg, do better than committing an ad hominem fallacy: address the points I was making instead of attacking me.

That's some irony there. Consider the personal attack withdrawn and please accept my apology, but in turn please don't turn this place into some political thread feces throwing contest where you use the nuclear option on anybody who doesn't agree with you.

Trotsky

Kyle Rose
Greg, do better than committing an ad hominem fallacy: address the points I was making instead of attacking me.

That's some irony there. Consider the personal attack withdrawn and please accept my apology, but in turn please don't turn this place into some political thread feces throwing contest where you use the nuclear option on anybody who doesn't agree with you.

I'm open to all arguments that make sense. The problem is precisely that few posters these days are making any. I first shot down the reasoning (Yale's talent vs. Cornell's), and then proposed an explanation for why this reasoning is so popular without attacking any particular poster (though I did refer to your own words in a later post: if those aren't fair game, then what is?).

It isn't ad hominem if I address the faulty reasoning first.

Anyway, c'est la vie. There's always next year. (As a Jets fan, I'm used to this sort of outcome.) My apologies if my argumentation style comes across as a personal attack: I assure you that it isn't intended that way. I'm mostly ruefully laughing when I make posts on this topic. We're all unhappy about the outcome, and I recognize that.

Kyle Rose
I first shot down the reasoning (Yale's talent vs. Cornell's)...

You can't be serious in claiming your shallow logic accomplished this. It was the equivalent of saying that because Cornell beat RPI 5-1 and NoDak beat them 5-0 that Cornell and NoDak are roughly equivalent teams. Give us all a break.

Al DeFlorio

Kyle Rose
I first shot down the reasoning (Yale's talent vs. Cornell's)...

You can't be serious in claiming your shallow logic accomplished this. It was the equivalent of saying that because Cornell beat RPI 5-1 and NoDak beat them 5-0 that Cornell and NoDak are roughly equivalent teams. Give us all a break.

I wouldn't make this argument based on a single data point ("proof by example", but there are in fact many data points in evidence, going back four seasons.

No one's claiming a mathematically-airtight proof: such a thing doesn't exist in real life. So we have to take a preponderance of evidence as our standard of proof. I have that on my side.

I thought our main contention was whether Yale's recent success against us was due to a superior system (you) or a couple dominant classes that are just passing through (me). The critical test is how they do against us now that most of those players are gone -- if they continue to dominate us you're right, if they come back to earth against us then I'm right. We won't know until we play them the next few times.

Trotsky
I thought our main contention was whether Yale's recent success against us was due to a superior system (you) or a couple dominant classes that are just passing through (me). The critical test is how they do against us now that most of those players are gone -- if they continue to dominate us you're right, if they come back to earth against us then I'm right. We won't know until we play them the next few times.

This is only part of it. The other question I have is why Cornell has had such a problem keeping games against Yale close for the past four years, while Yale nearly loses to Air Force two days ago. As I pointed out, Air Force isn't any more talented than Cornell, so talent can't entirely account for the difference. My hypothesis is that Yale's system was created specifically to beat Cornell in ECAC conference play. How does the coaching staff respond to this? I have mostly questions, not answers.

Kyle Rose

Trotsky
I thought our main contention was whether Yale's recent success against us was due to a superior system (you) or a couple dominant classes that are just passing through (me). The critical test is how they do against us now that most of those players are gone -- if they continue to dominate us you're right, if they come back to earth against us then I'm right. We won't know until we play them the next few times.

This is only part of it. The other question I have is why Cornell has had such a problem keeping games against Yale close for the past four years, while Yale nearly loses to Air Force two days ago. As I pointed out, Air Force isn't any more talented than Cornell, so talent can't entirely account for the difference. My hypothesis is that Yale's system was created specifically to beat Cornell in ECAC conference play. How does the coaching staff respond to this? I have mostly questions, not answers.

OK, I missed that part of it. While Allain may have designed a team specifically to get past Cornell, he did it pretty well: they were 65-25-6 in games against teams not named "Cornell" in the last 3 years.

In both talent and experience the teams should reverse directions, Cornell rising while Yale falls. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see our places in the standings swap. Union, as difficult as it is to wrap one's mind around, is now the team to beat.

The stat that most concerns me is shots faced per 60 minutes. Since the admittedly Annus Mirabilis of 2003, when Cornell goaltenders faced just 20.6 shots per 60 minutes, the best in team history, the number has risen about as consistently as radiation at the Fukushima plant. This season's 29.8 was the highest since 1999. Note the save percentage is still excellent by historical standards and quite typical of a 2000's "System" team. It's the sheer bulk of additional shots faced that's hurting us.

Trotsky
OK, I missed that part of it. While Allain may have designed a team specifically to get past Cornell, he did it pretty well: they were 65-25-6 in games against teams not named "Cornell" in the last 3 years.

I'm not contending that Yale isn't generally skilled: far from it, I recognize that they are an excellent team with an effective system. But part of what I'm saying is that Cornell is making them look better than they really are.

In both talent and experience the teams should reverse directions, Cornell rising while Yale falls. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see our places in the standings swap.

True as this may turn out, it doesn't give me warm fuzzies: Cornell can have a better conference record and still not solve the Yale puzzle.

I'll try to respond to the rest later: ELynah's editor thoroughly confuses the Android browser, making composing responses irritating at best.

Trotsky
Union, as difficult as it is to wrap one's mind around, is now the team to beat.

We'll see. At this point Yale seems to execute better, but it won't be clear until next year whether this continues to be true without their stellar senior class.

The stat that most concerns me is shots faced per 60 minutes. Since the admittedly Annus Mirabilis of 2003, when Cornell goaltenders faced just 20.6 shots per 60 minutes, the best in team history, the number has risen about as consistently as radiation at the Fukushima plant. This season's 29.8 was the highest since 1999. Note the save percentage is still excellent by historical standards and quite typical of a 2000's "System" team. It's the sheer bulk of additional shots faced that's hurting us.

The problem here is almost certainly that the officiating has changed: the board-grinding teams of the late-90's/early-00's would take too many PIM to be effective now. As a result, you're going to see more shots. What's the response to this? I don't know: "score more" seems a bit too glib.

Interesting side note from the east regionals in Bridgeport.

Sunday's Bridgeport-Syracuse AHL game was postponed due to unsafe ice conditions. I wonder if it was due to that pane of glass that was causing problems Friday and Saturday in the regional games.

From the team's website

Rita
Interesting side note from the east regionals in Bridgeport.

Sunday's Bridgeport-Syracuse AHL game was postponed due to unsafe ice conditions. I wonder if it was due to that pane of glass that was causing problems Friday and Saturday in the regional games.

From the team's website

I think it was the 7000 Yale fans crying, or the crap they threw on the ice.

Rita
Interesting side note from the east regionals in Bridgeport.

Sunday's Bridgeport-Syracuse AHL game was postponed due to unsafe ice conditions. I wonder if it was due to that pane of glass that was causing problems Friday and Saturday in the regional games.

From the team's website

Move it to Atlantic City where the ice conditions are a constant.

billhoward

Rita
Interesting side note from the east regionals in Bridgeport.

Sunday's Bridgeport-Syracuse AHL game was postponed due to unsafe ice conditions. I wonder if it was due to that pane of glass that was causing problems Friday and Saturday in the regional games.

From the team's website

Move it to Atlantic City where the ice conditions are a constant.

Constantly crap, but constant.

Jeff Hopkins '82

billhoward

Rita
Interesting side note from the east regionals in Bridgeport.

Sunday's Bridgeport-Syracuse AHL game was postponed due to unsafe ice conditions. I wonder if it was due to that pane of glass that was causing problems Friday and Saturday in the regional games.

From the team's website

Move it to Atlantic City where the ice conditions are a constant.

Constantly crap, but constant.

AC sucks. But It could always be worse.