Men's basketball 2018-19

Time for a new thread.

Syracuse Sat. Dec. 1, Carrier Dome "Boeheim vs. Boeheim"

Arizona shows interest in Cornell grad transfer Stone Gettings (May 16 story) [www.azdesertswarm.com]

Awaiting Cornell's list of incoming recruits. They always all sound so good. Whereas with, say, Jeff Teat, Coach says, "He'll definitely compete for playing time freshman year."

Thank you.

So, how good is the Morgan good news? Is it the difference between .500 and an outside chance at contention, or cellar dweller and an outside chance at .500?

Trotsky
Thank you.
So, how good is the Morgan good news? Is it the difference between .500 and an outside chance at contention, or cellar dweller and an outside chance at .500?

We're managing expectations nicely.

Woody Allen
“More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.”

Trotsky
Thank you.

So, how good is the Morgan good news? Is it the difference between .500 and an outside chance at contention, or cellar dweller and an outside chance at .500?

Without Morgan - The Red have the look of a team that is fighting to stay out of the cellar and is hard to watch for all but the most dedicated.

With Morgan - Cornell battles Brown and Columbia for 5th and hopes one of HYPP implodes the way Princeton did last year. My way too early thought is 6th.

I'll hope for the best on the recruits, but it appears the three high school seniors had one D1 offer among them. No earthly idea what to expect from the two JUCOs.

Getting verballed to Arizona I see

upprdeck
Getting verballed to Arizona I see

google tells me that you are talking about stone gettings as suggested by the link bill howard shared to open the thread

The 2018-19 schedule is out.

If you are counting, it includes 3 DIII games for your viewing pleasure.

mountainred
The 2018-19 schedule is out.

If you are counting, it includes 3 DIII games for your viewing pleasure.

I've never heard of Johnson & Wales or Longwood. Are we sure these aren't prisons?

Trotsky

mountainred
The 2018-19 schedule is out.

If you are counting, it includes 3 DIII games for your viewing pleasure.

I've never heard of Johnson & Wales or Longwood. Are we sure these aren't prisons?

They don't serve this in any prison where I've eaten.

UConn? Great.

Jeff Hopkins '82
UConn? Great.

Honest question. Would the UConn women's team beat the Cornell men's team by more than 50?

marty

Trotsky

mountainred
The 2018-19 schedule is out.

If you are counting, it includes 3 DIII games for your viewing pleasure.

I've never heard of Johnson & Wales or Longwood. Are we sure these aren't prisons?

They don't serve this in any prison where I've eaten.

Interested in seeing the list of those prisons where you've eaten.

Trotsky

Jeff Hopkins '82
UConn? Great.

Honest question. Would the UConn women's team beat the Cornell men's team by more than 50?

No, because they'd empty the bench after the first half.

On second thought...yes.

Al DeFlorio

marty

Trotsky

mountainred
The 2018-19 schedule is out.

If you are counting, it includes 3 DIII games for your viewing pleasure.

I've never heard of Johnson & Wales or Longwood. Are we sure these aren't prisons?

They don't serve this in any prison where I've eaten.

Interested in seeing the list of those prisons where you've eaten.

A young acquaintance told me he was planning to become a chef which at the time I thought worse than a prison sentence. That was until he uttered "pastry chef". My bias against the executive chef profession melted with those two words because the pastry chefs have the early shift. Wake early, work your butt off and leave for home before rush hour.

Last I knew he was here. Hopefully he can control his appetite and will enjoy a great career that started with a degree from Johnson and Wales.

marty

Al DeFlorio

marty

Trotsky

mountainred
The 2018-19 schedule is out.

If you are counting, it includes 3 DIII games for your viewing pleasure.

I've never heard of Johnson & Wales or Longwood. Are we sure these aren't prisons?

They don't serve this in any prison where I've eaten.

Interested in seeing the list of those prisons where you've eaten.

A young acquaintance told me he was planning to become a chef which at the time I thought worse than a prison sentence. That was until he uttered "pastry chef". My bias against the executive chef profession melted with those two words because the pastry chefs have the early shift. Wake early, work your butt off and leave for home before rush hour.

Last I knew he was here. Hopefully he can control his appetite and will enjoy a great career that started with a degree from Johnson and Wales.

We've had a few dinners in the J&W culinary school dining rooms. Very nice.

Ithaca's a pretty good D-III team, so a 37 point win in the exhibition game is a good sign

IC isn't Williams,* but they are probably on the level of Cortland St. Cornell beat the Dragons 96-70 in last year's opener. So, yeah, good sign and certainly better than most of the alternatives.

Boeheim was the #2 scorer, as he was in the inter-squad scrimmage. He looks to be the first choice to replace Stone's scoring. JUCO Thurston McCarty had a nice stat line in the intersquad (14p, 7R, 2A), but wasn't mentioned in the story about last night.

*BTW, after a couple of so-so seasons at Williams, Kevin App has the Ephs back to a 20-win, top 10 program.

Meanwhile Harvard signs their SECOND 4 star recruit. Chris Ledlum is ranked as the No. 105 prospect in the 247Sports Composite Rankings. This gives Harvard their second four-star prospect in the 2019 recruiting class. Harvard's class currently ranks No. 22 overall in the 247Sports Composite Rankings.

[247sports.com]

WSJ coverage of the Harvard (alleged) discrimination against Asians says 86% of all recruited athletes are admitted. Versus 5% of all applicants.

Ken711
Meanwhile Harvard signs their SECOND 4 star recruit. Chris Ledlum is ranked as the No. 105 prospect in the 247Sports Composite Rankings. This gives Harvard their second four-star prospect in the 2019 recruiting class. Harvard's class currently ranks No. 22 overall in the 247Sports Composite Rankings.

[247sports.com]

The only good news there is Chris' coach at Harvard is still Tommy Amaker, who wastes a lot of talent. But Yale, Penn and Princeton are also nabbing big time recruits and, to put it mildly, Cornell isn't.

I'm going to focus on enjoying Matt Morgan's last year. It could be very bleak after that.

Nice road win to start the season 86-75 at Binghamton.

Morgan with a career high 38 -- he could average 25 points a game. Boeheim was the second option and looked pretty good (20p). Only newcomer to the rotation was Soph. Jake Kuhn.

Glorified scrimmage on Thursday against a bad d3 team with a good nickname (the SUNY-Canton Roos), then Colgate at home on Sunday.

mountainred
Nice road win to start the season 86-75 at Binghamton.

Morgan with a career high 38 -- he could average 25 points a game. Boeheim was the second option and looked pretty good (20p). Only newcomer to the rotation was Soph. Jake Kuhn.

Glorified scrimmage on Thursday against a bad d3 team with a good nickname (the SUNY-Canton Roos), then Colgate at home on Sunday.

Morgan started slowly but blew up in the 2nd half. Boeheim has really improved and looks like he can at least partially fill the gap left by Gettings. Binghamton had some dangerous offensive players and I think this was a very nice road win against a decent D1 team.

When will this chance come our way again? Cornell 2 points short of doubling Canton, winning 86-44.

Wondering how often this kind of headline is used on the Duke basketball site?

Ridiculous headline given 2nd win vs D3 SUNY Canton. The Roos went 7-18 last yr

CAS
Ridiculous headline given 2nd win vs D3 SUNY Canton

"And the last time the Big Red went 2-0, they went to the Sweet Sixteen."

Look forward to returning to the Sweet 16 & maybe playing Kentucky again.

CAS
Look forward to returning to the Sweet 16 & maybe playing Kentucky again.

It was closer than the score indicated, for the first 10 minutes.

Ugly loss to Colgate 73-57. Basically, the Big Red looked awful. They couldn't shoot (4 of 28 from behind the arc) and the Raiders got to the basket with ease (they had 54 points in the paint).

Nobody is as bad as their worst loss, but the team I watched today finishes last in the Ivy.

mountainred
Ugly loss to Colgate 73-57. Basically, the Big Red looked awful. They couldn't shoot (4 of 28 from behind the arc) and the Raiders got to the basket with ease (they had 54 points in the paint).

Nobody is as bad as their worst loss, but the team I watched today finishes last in the Ivy.

Interior defense is nonexistent

scoop85

mountainred
Ugly loss to Colgate 73-57. Basically, the Big Red looked awful. They couldn't shoot (4 of 28 from behind the arc) and the Raiders got to the basket with ease (they had 54 points in the paint).

Nobody is as bad as their worst loss, but the team I watched today finishes last in the Ivy.

Interior defense is nonexistent

No argument here. And if Morgan isn't scoring, the team isn't scoring. That's a bad combination.

scoop85

mountainred
Ugly loss to Colgate 73-57. Basically, the Big Red looked awful. They couldn't shoot (4 of 28 from behind the arc) and the Raiders got to the basket with ease (they had 54 points in the paint).

Nobody is as bad as their worst loss, but the team I watched today finishes last in the Ivy.

Interior defense is nonexistent

Cornell needs to bring in size at center, whether it's a JUCO transfer or recruited freshman.

Delaware leads at the half 35-23. Adding insult to injury, Nobal Days, a 3-star big guy who had Cornell in his final 3 along with Wisconsin and Tulane, announced today he’s going to Tulane. We seem to be falling further behind in the recruiting race against the other Ivies, and with Morgan gone after this year we may be looking at even leaner times.

scoop85
Delaware leads at the half 35-23. Adding insult to injury, Nobal Days, a 3-star big guy who had Cornell in his final 3 along with Wisconsin and Tulane, announced today he’s going to Tulane. We seem to be falling further behind in the recruiting race against the other Ivies, and with Morgan gone after this year we may be looking at even leaner times.

The second half wasn't any better. Cornell closed on a 16-6 run and still lost by 17. Other than Matt and Jimmy Boeheim, no one can shoot.

Some of these guys are better players than they've looked the last two games. But right now, Stone looks like he made the right call.

mountainred

scoop85
Delaware leads at the half 35-23. Adding insult to injury, Nobal Days, a 3-star big guy who had Cornell in his final 3 along with Wisconsin and Tulane, announced today he’s going to Tulane. We seem to be falling further behind in the recruiting race against the other Ivies, and with Morgan gone after this year we may be looking at even leaner times.

The second half wasn't any better. Cornell closed on a 16-6 run and still lost by 17. Other than Matt and Jimmy Boeheim, no one can shoot.

Some of these guys are better players than they've looked the last two games. But right now, Stone looks like he made the right call.

And the fact that neither of the JUCO guys we brought in this year are in the rotation implies neither of them will be real contributors to the program, since you would expect JUCO transfers to have more of an immediate impact than freshmen. I thought Earl would be able to bring in better talent to Ithaca, but so far Boeheim looks like the best guy he’s recruited.

scoop85

mountainred

scoop85
Delaware leads at the half 35-23. Adding insult to injury, Nobal Days, a 3-star big guy who had Cornell in his final 3 along with Wisconsin and Tulane, announced today he’s going to Tulane. We seem to be falling further behind in the recruiting race against the other Ivies, and with Morgan gone after this year we may be looking at even leaner times.

The second half wasn't any better. Cornell closed on a 16-6 run and still lost by 17. Other than Matt and Jimmy Boeheim, no one can shoot.

Some of these guys are better players than they've looked the last two games. But right now, Stone looks like he made the right call.

And the fact that neither of the JUCO guys we brought in this year are in the rotation implies neither of them will be real contributors to the program, since you would expect JUCO transfers to have more of an immediate impact than freshmen. I thought Earl would be able to bring in better talent to Ithaca, but so far Boeheim looks like the best guy he’s recruited.

Mack is beginning to sneak into the rotation, he got 7 minutes tonight, but he hasn't done much in those minutes. Compare that to Julian who started out of the gate last year and made an immediate impact.

I still think McBride can play, I thought he was easily the best freshman last year, but he may be even more passive on offense this year (and his shooting slump isn't helping). Boeheim has improved his game this off-season, but I'm not sure his ceiling is much more than solid starter. You need those, but that better not be your best player. Kuhn is also improved and could be a decent rotation guy, but he's still a work in process. That's too many "buts" for the best recruits over the last three years.

The last two games were supposed to be toss-up, go down to the last possession match ups. Neither was close. Long season and all that, but this looks grim.

Looking at the lineup out there at times outside of Boeheim or Morgan who else can put points up? Prognosis even in league play looks pretty grim.

rss77
Looking at the lineup out there at times outside of Boeheim or Morgan who else can put points up? Prognosis even in league play looks pretty grim.

Gordon had some nice games last year, but he’s been off this year. Also I thought Whiteside and Davis could contribute more this year, so hopefully that will come.

scoop85

rss77
Looking at the lineup out there at times outside of Boeheim or Morgan who else can put points up? Prognosis even in league play looks pretty grim.

Gordon had some nice games last year, but he’s been off this year. Also I thought Whiteside and Davis could contribute more this year, so hopefully that will come.

McBride, Whiteside, Gordon and Kuhn are 2 for 32 from behind the arc so far this season. They aren't that bad. Julian is shooting 21% from the field. He shot about 50% last year. Those numbers should improve, which will help the offense overall.

Chaz Mack was a 20p-10r player at his JUCO, so cross your fingers that it clicks for him this season. Half of that production would be really helpful.

I only caught the second half, but Cornell finds its offense and beats NJIT 86-73. Everyone who played shot at least 50%. Morgan had 35, Boeheim 15 and Gordon 10. Julian grabbed 8 rebounds and hit his shots.

Next up is UConn, who beat Syracuse, but is probably smarting after getting handled by Iowa. Even a great game will probably not be enough.

Big Red trails UCONN 49-33 at the half. We wouldn’t beat them in any event, but the officiating is a joke. We get called for breathing on their guys, while they maul us and nothing is called.

What are the odds the streak continues? Is this like the Polish cavalry charging German tanks in 1939? In text, Cornell puts the streak in perspective: "Cornell's modest three-game road streak is the longest since 2012-13." Good luck, Cornell.

[edit add:] Final 91-74, 2 points shy of losing by an almost-reasonable 25. The line was Cornell + 15 (to make the score even).

Final: UConn 91 Cornell 74

billhoward
What are the odds the streak continues? Is this like the Polish cavalry charging German tanks in 1939? In text, Cornell puts the streak in perspective: "Cornell's modest three-game road streak is the longest since 2012-13." Good luck, Cornell.

[edit add:] Final 91-74, 2 points shy of losing by an almost-reasonable 25. The line was Cornell + 15 (to make the score even).

17 points is 2 points shy of losing by an almost-reasonable 25?

We literally forgot to watch the game last night, but when we checked the final score we were actually impressed by the respectable result. The second half was 43-41 UConn, which is really kind of amazing, unless they had all their scrubs in.

Beeeej

billhoward
What are the odds the streak continues? Is this like the Polish cavalry charging German tanks in 1939? In text, Cornell puts the streak in perspective: "Cornell's modest three-game road streak is the longest since 2012-13." Good luck, Cornell.

[edit add:] Final 91-74, 2 points shy of losing by an almost-reasonable 25. The line was Cornell + 15 (to make the score even).

17 points is 2 points shy of losing by an almost-reasonable 25?

We literally forgot to watch the game last night, but when we checked the final score we were actually impressed by the respectable result. The second half was 43-41 UConn, which is really kind of amazing, unless they had all their scrubs in.

The first time I checked it was 23-20 Cornell, and I tried to watch the game but found out it was blacked out in NYC. The next time I checked it was 48-33 UConn and I stopped checking.

ugarte

Beeeej

billhoward
What are the odds the streak continues? Is this like the Polish cavalry charging German tanks in 1939? In text, Cornell puts the streak in perspective: "Cornell's modest three-game road streak is the longest since 2012-13." Good luck, Cornell.

[edit add:] Final 91-74, 2 points shy of losing by an almost-reasonable 25. The line was Cornell + 15 (to make the score even).

17 points is 2 points shy of losing by an almost-reasonable 25?

We literally forgot to watch the game last night, but when we checked the final score we were actually impressed by the respectable result. The second half was 43-41 UConn, which is really kind of amazing, unless they had all their scrubs in.

The first time I checked it was 23-20 Cornell, and I tried to watch the game but found out it was blacked out in NYC. The next time I checked it was 48-33 UConn and I stopped checking.

Honestly, there wasn't much to see. It was close for a while thanks to some hot shooting, then UConn hit the jets and opened up a 20 point lead. The Huskies played with a decided lack of urgency after that, playing just hard enough to keep it around 20. If not for Morgan, this would have been truly ugly.

game was on SNY and blacked out on ESPN+

upprdeck
game was on SNY and blacked out on ESPN+

I watched a few minutes early in the game on ESPN3.

Al DeFlorio

upprdeck
game was on SNY and blacked out on ESPN+

I watched a few minutes early in the game on ESPN3.

he meant blacked out in the NY region

ugarte

Al DeFlorio

upprdeck
game was on SNY and blacked out on ESPN+

I watched a few minutes early in the game on ESPN3.

he meant blacked out in the NY region

The game wasn't on ESPN+ anywhere. It was on ESPN3. That may have been blacked out in the NY region because SNY had the local rights.

Ugly win, but at least a win, over Lafayette 63-58 on the road in overtime. Josh Warren was huge -- 17 points and 7 rebounds. Very scary moment in the second half when Morgan landed wrong and looked to be in a lot of pain, but he came back into the game.

The LC announcers kept praising Cornell's defense, which was fine, but really Lafayette is just not very good.

Today is the annual trouncing. For all the kvetching on this board when Cornell played Delaware in football (Princeton. Dartmouth, and Colgate were all better than Delaware) this is a game I do not forward to. With an undersized team that I do not Project to make Ivy playoffs (maybe 6th place) it will be ugly in the Done.

Meanwhile on the ESPN that is working, CU keeping it close. 47-45 orange with 8:45 to go. Morgan has 21.

jeff '84
Meanwhile on the ESPN that is working, CU keeping it close. 47-45 orange with 8:45 to go. Morgan has 21.

Cornell got the lead at 48-47 and again at 50-49 but after that Syracuse locked down and won 63-55.

Guess I should watch I say-good showing for the Red. Morgan is a special athlete. Must say that Yale looks really good-beatinghe "U" down in Miami.

rss77
Guess I should watch I say-good showing for the Red. Morgan is a special athlete. Must say that Yale looks really good-beatinghe "U" down in Miami.

Hey, the last three times the guys stayed within 20 of Syracuse, they won the league. I wasn't in the mood to watch a 20 point drubbing and passed on watching. Looks like I chose poorly.

Yale also has a 17 point thrashing of Cal on their resume. The Bears aren't particularly good this year, but that's still a drubbing of a Pac-12 team.

ugarte

jeff '84
Meanwhile on the ESPN that is working, CU keeping it close. 47-45 orange with 8:45 to go. Morgan has 21.

Cornell got the lead at 48-47 and again at 50-49 but after that Syracuse locked down and won 63-55.

Not so much Syracuse locking down as Cornell getting cold on their 3-pointers. Several of the late Syracuse points came on fouls to stop the clock. A couple of more 3's and it would have been really close.

Penn 78, Villanova 75. This is going to be a long year for the Big Red.

ugarte
Penn 78, Villanova 75. This is going to be a long year for the Big Red.

We’re not a bad team by general Ivy standards, but Penn, Yale, and Harvard (when healthy) are quite strong this year. The rest of the teams, including Cornell, will likely jostle for the 4th spot in the Ivy tournament. I’m thinking another 6-8 league record is about where we’ll finish. A shame too, because had Gettings stuck around, we’d be more of a factor.

scoop85
A shame too, because had Gettings stuck around, we’d be more of a factor.

Seems as if Donahue had stuck around, we'd be more of a factor…

Scersk '97

scoop85
A shame too, because had Gettings stuck around, we’d be more of a factor.

Seems as if Donahue had stuck around, we'd be more of a factor…

Only if he got lucky and had another confluence of Dale, Foote, and Wittman appearing on campus together.

Al DeFlorio

Scersk '97

scoop85
A shame too, because had Gettings stuck around, we’d be more of a factor.

Seems as if Donahue had stuck around, we'd be more of a factor…

Only if he got lucky and had another confluence of Dale, Foote, and Wittman appearing on campus together.

Not necessarily. At Penn he's winning with Brodeur, Woods, and Wang. Penn is currently 9-2, with the losses coming to Kansas State and Oregon State.

scoop85

ugarte
Penn 78, Villanova 75. This is going to be a long year for the Big Red.

We’re not a bad team by general Ivy standards, but Penn, Yale, and Harvard (when healthy) are quite strong this year. The rest of the teams, including Cornell, will likely jostle for the 4th spot in the Ivy tournament. I’m thinking another 6-8 league record is about where we’ll finish. A shame too, because had Gettings stuck around, we’d be more of a factor.

This isn't a bad Ivy team, more middle of the road, but it's a good year for the league. Penn, Yale and Harvard are top 100 teams and there aren't any truly awful teams (Columbia looked pretty bad to start the season have looked better as of late). 6-8 in the league is possible, but will be tough.

Gettings would have helped, obviously, but he probably wouldn't have been enough to close the gap to H,Y, and Penn.

Donahue would have had he not been married

upprdeck
Donahue would have had he not been married

I'm not sure what this is responding to but ... you think if he were single he wouldn't have taken the BC job? That's crazy talk.

Swampy

Al DeFlorio

Scersk '97

scoop85
A shame too, because had Gettings stuck around, we’d be more of a factor.

Seems as if Donahue had stuck around, we'd be more of a factor…

Only if he got lucky and had another confluence of Dale, Foote, and Wittman appearing on campus together.

Not necessarily. At Penn he's winning with Brodeur, Woods, and Wang. Penn is currently 9-2, with the losses coming to Kansas State and Oregon State.

Yes, I know all that.

But his record at Cornell wasn't much until Dale, Foote, and Wittman appeared serendipitously on campus together. Whether he would have reverted to his mediocre recruiting form after those years we'll never know, but in my opinion it was likely. I didn't mourn his departure then and don't blame him for giving it a shot, but wasn't at all surprised when he failed at BC.

Penn basketball, I hope you realize, has a rather different history from Cornell's, and Penn is located in a city where basketball has been a big-time item for decades, and the Palestra is, well, the Palestra. Cornell and Ithaca and Alberding/Newman, not so much.

Al DeFlorio

Swampy

Al DeFlorio

Scersk '97

scoop85
A shame too, because had Gettings stuck around, we’d be more of a factor.

Seems as if Donahue had stuck around, we'd be more of a factor…

Only if he got lucky and had another confluence of Dale, Foote, and Wittman appearing on campus together.

Not necessarily. At Penn he's winning with Brodeur, Woods, and Wang. Penn is currently 9-2, with the losses coming to Kansas State and Oregon State.

Yes, I know all that.

But his record at Cornell wasn't much until Dale, Foote, and Wittman appeared serendipitously on campus together. Whether he would have reverted to his mediocre recruiting form after those years we'll never know, but in my opinion it was likely. I didn't mourn his departure then and don't blame him for giving it a shot, but wasn't at all surprised when he failed at BC.

Penn basketball, I hope you realize, has a rather different history from Cornell's, and Penn is located in a city where basketball has been a big-time item for decades, and the Palestra is, well, the Palestra. Cornell and Ithaca and Alberding/Newman, not so much.

{Emphasis added to the quote}

Al, you may be forgetting that after two awful years, Steve's teams consistently improved and finished 2nd and 3rd in the league before any of the class of 2010 set foot on campus (Cornell had finished 3rd only twice between 1988 and 2004); that he recruited three Ivy Rookies of the Year that weren't part of the 2010 class (Collins, Gore and 'ski) and 9 players, other than Wittman, Dale and Foote, who were named to all-Ivy teams (totaling 3 first-team selections, 6 second-team, and 4 honorable mention). In the years since, Cornell has only recruited 4 all-Ivy players, and two bailed on the school before graduating. And while Penn certainly has significant basketball advantages over Cornell, the two prior Quaker coaches proved that you can't just show up and hope to win there.

The "Steve just got lucky" story was a favorite of Penn and Princeton fans because it allowed them to discount the Big Red titles as flukes -- Cornell wasn't a real champion like their teams were. Of course, Penn fans don't raise that as much anymore. No question there was luck involved in assembling the 2010 team, but it ignores how well Steve made the pieces work together.

Steve may not be a Ned Harkness of basketball, but he's a good coach. He's, at worst, the second best Cornell coach of all-time after Sam MacNeil (unless you really want to lobby for the work Albert Sharpe did a century ago). Who knows if Cornell would have won another Ivy title after 2010, maybe not, but the team would have been more relevant.

Al DeFlorio

Swampy

Al DeFlorio

Scersk '97

scoop85
A shame too, because had Gettings stuck around, we’d be more of a factor.

Seems as if Donahue had stuck around, we'd be more of a factor…

Only if he got lucky and had another confluence of Dale, Foote, and Wittman appearing on campus together.

Not necessarily. At Penn he's winning with Brodeur, Woods, and Wang. Penn is currently 9-2, with the losses coming to Kansas State and Oregon State.

Yes, I know all that.

But his record at Cornell wasn't much until Dale, Foote, and Wittman appeared serendipitously on campus together. Whether he would have reverted to his mediocre recruiting form after those years we'll never know, but in my opinion it was likely. I didn't mourn his departure then and don't blame him for giving it a shot, but wasn't at all surprised when he failed at BC.

Penn basketball, I hope you realize, has a rather different history from Cornell's, and Penn is located in a city where basketball has been a big-time item for decades, and the Palestra is, well, the Palestra. Cornell and Ithaca and Alberding/Newman, not so much.

Yes, around 1970 I dated someone with family in Philly, and most of them had some association with Penn. At some function at one of her Philly relatives, an uncle said something like, "Cornell's basketball team isn't doing too well this year." And I responded, "Yeah, but the hockey team is doing great." Seeing the blank stares, I suddenly remembered I was in Philly, where they were fanatics for a different religion.

Swampy

Al DeFlorio

Swampy

Al DeFlorio

Scersk '97

scoop85
A shame too, because had Gettings stuck around, we’d be more of a factor.

Seems as if Donahue had stuck around, we'd be more of a factor…

Only if he got lucky and had another confluence of Dale, Foote, and Wittman appearing on campus together.

Not necessarily. At Penn he's winning with Brodeur, Woods, and Wang. Penn is currently 9-2, with the losses coming to Kansas State and Oregon State.

Yes, I know all that.

But his record at Cornell wasn't much until Dale, Foote, and Wittman appeared serendipitously on campus together. Whether he would have reverted to his mediocre recruiting form after those years we'll never know, but in my opinion it was likely. I didn't mourn his departure then and don't blame him for giving it a shot, but wasn't at all surprised when he failed at BC.

Penn basketball, I hope you realize, has a rather different history from Cornell's, and Penn is located in a city where basketball has been a big-time item for decades, and the Palestra is, well, the Palestra. Cornell and Ithaca and Alberding/Newman, not so much.

Yes, around 1970 I dated someone with family in Philly, and most of them had some association with Penn. At some function at one of her Philly relatives, an uncle said something like, "Cornell's basketball team isn't doing too well this year." And I responded, "Yeah, but the hockey team is doing great." Seeing the blank stares, I suddenly remembered I was in Philly, where they were fanatics for a different religion.

It went so far that Penn dropped hockey as a sport.

Donahue is an excellent coach. Look how Cornell has fared after his departure. Bill Courtney went 60-113 during his 6 unsuccessful years. Brian Earl is 24-41 so far.

CAS
Donahue is an excellent coach. Look how Cornell has fared after his departure. Bill Courtney went 60-113 during his 6 unsuccessful years. Brian Earl is 24-41 so far.

Absolutely. Even with the team he had, you don't get the likes of Dick Vitale saying, "Cornell put on a clinic against Wisconsin" without excellent coaching.

Swampy

CAS
Donahue is an excellent coach. Look how Cornell has fared after his departure. Bill Courtney went 60-113 during his 6 unsuccessful years. Brian Earl is 24-41 so far.

Absolutely. Even with the team he had, you don't get the likes of Dick Vitale saying, "Cornell put on a clinic against Wisconsin" without excellent coaching.

His coaching and his philosophy of how the team members should treat each other was also apparently a big factor behind Foote's decision to transfer from St. Bonaventure. Foote's mom was a nurse at the hospital where Khaliq Gant was being treated after his spinal cord injury, and she was reportedly blown away by how much time and effort Donahue and the players spent making sure Gant knew he was still part of the team. It was terrible what happened to Gant, but without that, Foote probably keeps riding the bench for the Bonnies.

mountainred
Steve may not be a Ned Harkness of basketball, but he's a good coach. He's, at worst, the second best Cornell coach of all-time after Sam MacNeil (unless you really want to lobby for the work Albert Sharpe did a century ago).

MacNeil by the record may look pretty good, but I and everyone I knew thought he was a bad coach in terms of game-time decisions. If one has him as a contender, his predecessor, Royner Greene, needs to be as well, until he kind of lost it later in his tenure (separate the 46-47 through 53-54 seasons from then through 58-59). We were all calling for his dismissal in those later years. (I saw every home game he coached from the 48-49 season on.) I would put Donahue first, but it's hard to compare eras, with recruiting, for example, being very different.

ugarte

upprdeck
Donahue would have had he not been married

I'm not sure what this is responding to but ... you think if he were single he wouldn't have taken the BC job? That's crazy talk.

yup

upprdeck

ugarte

upprdeck
Donahue would have had he not been married

I'm not sure what this is responding to but ... you think if he were single he wouldn't have taken the BC job? That's crazy talk.

yup

I'm going to remain skeptical.

Chuck Henderson

mountainred
Steve may not be a Ned Harkness of basketball, but he's a good coach. He's, at worst, the second best Cornell coach of all-time after Sam MacNeil (unless you really want to lobby for the work Albert Sharpe did a century ago).

MacNeil by the record may look pretty good, but I and everyone I knew thought he was a bad coach in terms of game-time decisions. If one has him as a contender, his predecessor, Royner Greene, needs to be as well, until he kind of lost it later in his tenure (separate the 46-47 through 53-54 seasons from then through 58-59). We were all calling for his dismissal in those later years. (I saw every home game he coached from the 48-49 season on.) I would put Donahue first, but it's hard to compare eras, with recruiting, for example, being very different.

Thanks for the insight Chuck. Sam was before my time (Class of '88) so I just know the record (.637 overall, 8 top 4 Ivy finishes in 9 seasons, a couple of the most storied wins in school history). He was doing something right, so I didn't want to dismiss him, but I have to defer to you on his game-time decision-making.
Royner Greene is interesting. He had 2-3 really good seasons, a bunch of solid ones, but, like you said, really tailed off at the end. Both Sam and Royner were dealing with a league where the best team could be ranked in the top 10 and SD certainly never had to worry about that. And no question the game now is very different.
All that said, Steve's record stacks up with anyone who has coached here and he's certainly the best of the last half century.

Swampy

CAS
Donahue is an excellent coach. Look how Cornell has fared after his departure. Bill Courtney went 60-113 during his 6 unsuccessful years. Brian Earl is 24-41 so far.

Absolutely. Even with the team he had, you don't get the likes of Dick Vitale saying, "Cornell put on a clinic against Wisconsin" without excellent coaching.

His record until the three bluebirds flew through his window was mediocre at best. Saying he was better than Courtney isn't saying much. Thinking we'd be where Penn is now under Donahue is fanciful. Cornell was 47 games below .500 overall and 22 below .500 in the league under Donahue before the fab three arrived. They made him look good and got him the BC job.

Yes, Donahue was a good guy. From all I could see Courtney was, too. And Archer.

Guess the players Coach K has recruited has made him look good too. And how many games did the Fab 3 play in the NBA?

CAS
Guess the players Coach K has recruited has made him look good too. And how many games did the Fab 3 play in the NBA?

Irrelevant. Sorry to say.

Yup, Donahue was just lucky. 3 straight Ivy titles, including the Sweet 16, had nothing to do with coaching. Not responsible for attracting the players who played for him. The Fab 3 were all NBA lottery picks. Turning around Penn was pure luck again. Expect Brian Earl will be similarly lucky, & take us to the Elite 8 soon.

Al DeFlorio

Swampy

CAS
Donahue is an excellent coach. Look how Cornell has fared after his departure. Bill Courtney went 60-113 during his 6 unsuccessful years. Brian Earl is 24-41 so far.

Absolutely. Even with the team he had, you don't get the likes of Dick Vitale saying, "Cornell put on a clinic against Wisconsin" without excellent coaching.

His record until the three bluebirds flew through his window was mediocre at best. Saying he was better than Courtney isn't saying much. Thinking we'd be where Penn is now under Donahue is fanciful. Cornell was 47 games below .500 overall and 22 below .500 in the league under Donahue before the fab three arrived. They made him look good and got him the BC job.

Yes, Donahue was a good guy. From all I could see Courtney was, too. And Archer.

I realize this is an inconvenient fact for your narrative, but, as I said before, Steve's teams finished 2nd and 3rd in the league before any of the class of 2010 set foot on campus.

I would love that level of mediocrity.

CAS
Yup, Donahue was just lucky. 3 straight Ivy titles, including the Sweet 16, had nothing to do with coaching. Not responsible for attracting the players who played for him. The Fab 3 were all NBA lottery picks. Turning around Penn was pure luck again. Expect Brian Earl will be similarly lucky, & take us to the Elite 8 soon.

No point in responding as so far, given what you've written above you've made no effort to understand what I write.

Donahue’s family has remained in the Boston area while Donahue takes over the reins at Penn. Second-oldest son, Matthew, is a senior in high school and they didn’t want to take him out of school.

Part of the reason BC and was so attractive to Donahue was the school systems in the Boston area. Matthew has the development disorder Asperger’s syndrome, and the Donahues believed he’d have advanced support available in the Boston area.

Back to game action. The guys lose a lead late and lose at Niagara 77-74 despite Josh Warren's best game for the Red.

They come back the next night and hold on to a 70-64 win over Longwood thanks to crazy outside shooting (16 of 32 from behind the arc). Earl got some quality minutes from the Sophomores, as McBride, Boeheim, Kuhn, Knapp, and Voss contributed 32 points and 7 rebounds. On the other hand, Cornell had 20 turnovers and no inside offense. Longwood is terrible -- they needed overtime to beat D3 Frostburg State -- and had 21 turnovers of their own. Let's just say it wasn't a pretty game, but the Red found a way to win.

A tough week for the guys. On Wednesday they went to Toledo and, after taking an early lead, get clobbered on the boards losing 86-70. The Rockets are quite good, so losing by what the computers predicted was disappointing but not the end of the world.

Last night was a different story. SMU put together a 42-7 run over the middle of the game in route to an 81-53 win. Other than Morgan, no one looked like they belonged on the floor with the Mustangs. (Okay, Jake Kuhn hit a few threes, which was nice to see.)

Bart Torvik runs a basketball stat page that is NOT behind a paywall. He gives a game score for every game played against D1 competition on a scale from 0-100. Five times this year an Ivy team has earned a sub-10 score; three of those games belong to Cornell ('gate, Del, last night). I don't know exactly what that means, but it can't be good.

Lack of height and nobody has picked up Getting 's point production. Does not bode well for Ivies.

Didn't check this thread for a while. I came back to about 39 messages, meaning either the coach was fired (unlikely), Cornell has been on a winning streak (ibid), or we're having an excellent family feud. Right about now we should be reminiscing how awesome the Florida Hockey Tournament was.

Matt Morgan took over in the second half of a 61-50 win over Navy. After scoring just two points in the first half, Matt finished with 27. Steve Julian had a solid day: 9 points, 15 rebounds, 4 blocks. Otherwise, it was pretty ugly.
The final is a bit deceiving because Cornell scored the last nine; it was a one possession game with 2 minutes left.

Winning is always better than losing, but Navy is a bottom 50 team. Considering Brown just crushed San Diego State on the road and Princeton knocked off Arizona State, it's hard to get too excited over holding off the 3-8 Middies.

The final three OOC games are: a likely loss at Wake Forest (but Wake is a mess that has lost to Houston Baptist and Garner Webb at home this year, so who knows), a D3 game the guys should win easily and a toss-up at Towson.

mountainred
Matt Morgan took over in the second half of a 61-50 win over Navy. After scoring just two points in the first half, Matt finished with 27. Steve Julian had a solid day: 9 points, 15 rebounds, 4 blocks. Otherwise, it was pretty ugly.
The final is a bit deceiving because Cornell scored the last nine; it was a one possession game with 2 minutes left.

Winning is always better than losing, but Navy is a bottom 50 team. Considering Brown just crushed San Diego State on the road and Princeton knocked off Arizona State, it's hard to get too excited over holding off the 3-8 Middies.

The final three OOC games are: a likely loss at Wake Forest (but Wake is a mess that has lost to Houston Baptist and Garner Webb at home this year, so who knows), a D3 game the guys should win easily and a toss-up at Towson.

A fair description of the game. The entire team sleepwalked through the 1st half, and did enough in the 2nd half to beat a pretty bad Navy team. Morgan looked disinterested in the 1st half, with some lazy passes and poor shooting, but he was terrific in the 2nd half.

What could have been. Forbes did an article on Yale stud Miye Oni (who is now listed on NBA draft boards as a possible second round pick. The sad quote from the article: "Oni even attended Elite Camps at Stanford, Cornell and Penn. He really wanted to attend Cornell because his older sister, Oluwatoniloba, went to school there, 'but the coaches never recruited me.'"

{heavy sigh}

mountainred
What could have been. Forbes did an article on Yale stud Miye Oni (who is now listed on NBA draft boards as a possible second round pick. The sad quote from the article: "Oni even attended Elite Camps at Stanford, Cornell and Penn. He really wanted to attend Cornell because his older sister, Oluwatoniloba, went to school there, 'but the coaches never recruited me.'"

{heavy sigh}

heavy sigh indeed. Amazing how so many coaches (and not just at Cornell) miss out on talented players. Louis Dale is a perfect example. No one was recruiting him, and he turned out to be one of the best Ivy League players of the last 20 years.

After a slow start, it was a big night at Towson as the Hoops team finished the OOC schedule with an 86-74 win. After missing their first 10 or so three point attempts, Matt and the Red went on a 36-7 run to blow the game open. The Tigers owned the last minute to make the margin appear closer than it really was.

Morgan had a huge night. He finished with 38 points, in the process setting the arena record and giving him more than 2000 on his career. He'll almost certainly pass Ryan as the school's all-time leading scorer next Saturday v. Columbia. Warren played well: 18p, 5A; Julian had 11 rebounds and Boeheim reached double figures.

Towson isn't exactly Duke, but a blow out win on the road is a nice way to go into league play.

Thought this would be a good time to look at the numbers with the OOC season over and the team off for the weekend. If you ask the computers, Cornell remains a team just inside the top 250 (or basically the same as last year). Not surprisingly, the offense is down from last year. No one has replaced Gettings' offense, even though Boeheim and Warren have helped. The more surprising issue is the shooting drop-off for Julian and McBride. Last year they shot 59% from 2 pt range and 33% from 3 pt range; this year its 45% and 11%. Combine with that with the loss of Stone and a complete lack of offensive rebounding (never a strength under Earl) and you have the worst offense in the league.

The defense, however, is improved by the same amount. The key here is that the guys are vastly improved in three point D. Opponents are taking fewer 3s and hitting them at a substantially lower rate. That said, the defense remains poor, just not as terrible as last year's model.

The problem is that the league is a lot better. Harvard, Yale, Penn and Princeton are still rated well-above the Big Red by the computers. While some games were very close, Cornell was 1-8 against those four teams last year, and the one win needed 3 OTs and an epic Princeton meltdown. Brown and Dartmouth are much improved -- both teams are up 130 spots in the computers. Cornell swept the Bears and Green last year, but that sure looks unlikely this season. At least Columbia is about the same. Matching last year's 6-8 league record is going to take a lot of of things to break Cornell's way.

And Dartmouth blew out Harvard last night.

Possibly the worst half of basketballl I've ever seen. Completely clueless in half-court offense.

Al DeFlorio
Possibly the worst half of basketballl I've ever seen. Completely clueless in half-court offense.

And yet somehow they hold on for a 60-59 win.

Who is the main competition for a spot in the ivy tourney? Assuming Columbia is not?

CU2007
Who is the main competition for a spot in the ivy tourney? Assuming Columbia is not?

Despite two losses to Princeton while shorthanded by injuries, Penn should certainly make it. Princeton would be a solid choice, but their top player was just suspended after being arrested during an altercation at a Wawa. Yale will likely make it, and Harvard should be too. But Dartmouth just whipped Harvard by 18, so that throws a wrench into things a bit. And Brown has shown to be very competitive in non-league competition.

At this point I would think Columbia is probably the only school without a reasonable shot of getting in. Of the “top 4” I think Harvard surprisingly might be the most vulnerable, unless Canady does not make it back from suspension for Princeton. Bottom line I think it’s a long shot for us to make it—not because we’re terrible, because we’re not, but mainly because the Ivies have probably not been this strong top-to-bottom in my lifetime.

scoop85

Al DeFlorio
Possibly the worst half of basketballl I've ever seen. Completely clueless in half-court offense.

And yet somehow they hold on for a 60-59 win.

I take it Al missed the Courtney years.

scoop85

CU2007
Who is the main competition for a spot in the ivy tourney? Assuming Columbia is not?

Despite two losses to Princeton while shorthanded by injuries, Penn should certainly make it. Princeton would be a solid choice, but their top player was just suspended after being arrested during an altercation at a Wawa. Yale will likely make it, and Harvard should be too. But Dartmouth just whipped Harvard by 18, so that throws a wrench into things a bit. And Brown has shown to be very competitive in non-league competition.

At this point I would think Columbia is probably the only school without a reasonable shot of getting in. Of the “top 4” I think Harvard surprisingly might be the most vulnerable, unless Canady does not make it back from suspension for Princeton. Bottom line I think it’s a long shot for us to make it—not because we’re terrible, because we’re not, but mainly because the Ivies have probably not been this strong top-to-bottom in my lifetime.

Sadly, I don't think Cornell has a "reasonable shot" either, and for the reason Scoop gave, there are no gimmees in the league this year. Cornell was favored yesterday but is favored in just one more game the rest of the way. They'll pull off some upsets, but getting to even six league wins will be tough.

mountainred

scoop85

CU2007
Who is the main competition for a spot in the ivy tourney? Assuming Columbia is not?

Despite two losses to Princeton while shorthanded by injuries, Penn should certainly make it. Princeton would be a solid choice, but their top player was just suspended after being arrested during an altercation at a Wawa. Yale will likely make it, and Harvard should be too. But Dartmouth just whipped Harvard by 18, so that throws a wrench into things a bit. And Brown has shown to be very competitive in non-league competition.

At this point I would think Columbia is probably the only school without a reasonable shot of getting in. Of the “top 4” I think Harvard surprisingly might be the most vulnerable, unless Canady does not make it back from suspension for Princeton. Bottom line I think it’s a long shot for us to make it—not because we’re terrible, because we’re not, but mainly because the Ivies have probably not been this strong top-to-bottom in my lifetime.

Sadly, I don't think Cornell has a "reasonable shot" either, and for the reason Scoop gave, there are no gimmees in the league this year. Cornell was favored yesterday but is favored in just one more game the rest of the way. They'll pull off some upsets, but getting to even six league wins will be tough.

Well, I did say it was a long-shot for us, so maybe you’re right that I shouldn’t say we have a “reasonable” chance to get in to the tournament.