Basketball 2015-16

Basketball deserves a new thread each year. Here.

Men's Basketball Picked Eighth in Ivy Preseason Poll, as noted earlier, sounds better than "picked last."

Rank School Points
1. Yale (5) 117
2. Columbia (6) 114
3. Princeton (6) 108
4. Harvard 96
5. Brown 54
6. Dartmouth 50
7. Penn 48
8. Cornell 25

Nice contrast between image and caption. "SOAR! Shit, never mind."

billhoward
Basketball deserves a new thread each year. Here.

"Deserve" is a rather strong term, under the circumstances. But a new thread makes sense.

KeithK

billhoward
Basketball deserves a new thread each year. Here.

"Deserve" is a rather strong term, under the circumstances. But a new thread makes sense.

"Picked" is a rather strong term. More like "By process of elimination".

Kyle Rose

KeithK

billhoward
Basketball deserves a new thread each year. Here.

"Deserve" is a rather strong term, under the circumstances. But a new thread makes sense.

"Picked" is a rather strong term. More like "By process of elimination".

The minimum total seems to be 17 points. That we got 25 means that at least two voters didn't rank us 8th.

KeithK

billhoward
Basketball deserves a new thread each year. Here.

"Deserve" is a rather strong term, under the circumstances. But a new thread makes sense.

Thread Bear.

Ken Pomeroy is pretty down on the team too. He released his first set of 2015-16 ratings and has Cornell #311 overall, which is significantly behind 7th place Brown (#243). That rating, and Cornell's schedule, translates to a predicted 8 win season (4-10 in the league). The losses of Miller, Cherry and Cancer from what was a pretty poor offensive team last year result in a dreadful offensive rating that is nearly the worst in the nation.

In fairness, Ken underestimated Cornell last year. The Big Red started in the 300's, but steadily climbed to spend most of the season in the 175-200 range (which translates to "slightly below average" nationally). His pre-season ratings are based on incomplete information, such as the impact of newcomers.

And this team could have some serious newcomers. There are 8 freshman; Stone Gettings out of Los Angeles was highly regarded by ESPN and Matt Morgan was a huge scorer (2000 career points) from a suburban Charlotte high school. Throw in that last year was pretty much a lost season for Soph. Pat Smith, but he played well when injuries didn't keep him off the court. If the kids earn some PT, this team could be interesting to watch in a rebuilding kind of way. If they rely on Junior class (there are no Seniors of note), this is going to be a long slog of a season that will see Hatter lead the league in scoring but likely break the school record for shots taken to get there.

Voice of the Red Barry Leonard did a season preview for Ivy Hoops Online: [ivyhoopsonline.com]

10-14 wins is probably a bit optimistic, but Harvard has already lost Siriyani Chambers to an ACL injury and Penn's leading returning scorer, Tony Hicks, has left the team.

mountainred
Voice of the Red Barry Leonard did a season preview for Ivy Hoops Online: [ivyhoopsonline.com]

10-14 wins is probably a bit optimistic, but Harvard has already lost Siriyani Chambers to an ACL injury and Penn's leading returning scorer, Tony Hicks, has left the team.

"...the upside is huge!" Assuming no more key players leave the program as been the norm in the last few seasons.

Ken711

mountainred
Voice of the Red Barry Leonard did a season preview for Ivy Hoops Online: [ivyhoopsonline.com]

10-14 wins is probably a bit optimistic, but Harvard has already lost Siriyani Chambers to an ACL injury and Penn's leading returning scorer, Tony Hicks, has left the team.

"...the upside is huge!" Assuming no more key players leave the program as been the norm in the last few seasons.

Not a fan of Bill's, but the only key player to "leave the program" was Cressler (okay Cancer left, but he came back). Peck, Miller, Tarwater, and (later) Cancer all graduated. To me, that's more on archaic Ivy League rules than BC.

If the game notes are to be trusted, the starters will be Robert Hatter, Daryl Smith, Matt Morgan, Jordan Abdur Ra'oof, and David Onuorah. I think Jordan and David can defend well (though maybe not against Ga Tech), but neither has had much of an offensive presence; Onuorah doesn't shoot unless it is a dunk or putback and Jordan was 4-21 from inside the arc last season. That's going to make the offensive very one dimensional.

Interesting, and promising, is that Freshman Morgan should start. His high school game was scoring and this team needs someone other than Hatter to take shots.

Season opener for Big Red: Georgia Tech 116, Cornell 81. Halftime, a reasonable 57-49 deficit, Cornell got it down to a couple early in the second, then the roof fell in. Fr Matt Morgan gets 20, Robert Hatter 19, fr Stone Gattings 11. We score 80 every game in the Ivies, we'll win quite a few.

116-81 Georgia Tech. Losing at an ACC school isn't a surprise, but this wasn't the way I expected it to happen.

The Big Red fell behind early, but closed to within 2 early in the second half. Then it got ugly.

The good news is that Freshmen Matt Morgan and Stone Gettings played well - I think they combined for 34 points or so and most of those were while the game was still in reach.

The bad news is GT scored at will and outrebounded the Red by 50 (at least it felt that way). Shonn Miller's absence was felt.

Oh well, it wasn't like I had much hope of beating an ACC team. Colgate and Bingo will be better assessments of where this team is.

The second half was really ugly. No attempt at ball movement, Hatter kept trying to drive the lane on multiple defenders, shooting went cold, and this was not a team we were remotely capable of defending against. I really wish I'd seen the first half instead.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I didn't expect this to be close so I don't really care what we look like against Georgia Tech on the road.

Interesting: Freshman Stone Gattings is in Arts & Sciences AND he also lettered in water polo [edit add: in high school].

ugarte
Hatter kept trying to drive the lane on multiple defenders.

In Hatter's defense, he was drawing fouls like crazy doing that in the first half. Then the refs swallowed their whistles and he kept trying it. I thought he had a nice overall game. The pass he threw to Morgan on the fast break was a thing of beauty.

And nice try at spin by the SID's office: "Georgia Tech's 116 points is the most allowed by a Big Red team in a game since Syracuse scored 120 in a 120-85 victory during the 1965-66 campaign. Cornell went 15-9 that season." (emphasis mine). I doubt there is much cause and effect there.

Colgate game going into second OT as Cornell blows 19-point first-half lead and 8-point lead in first OT (how do you do that?).

Edit: 101-98 Cornell wins as a Colgate 3-pointer goes off the rim at the second-OT buzzer.

Big Red survive in double OT 101-98. The key in the second OT was to fall behind by 4.

Wil Bathurst had his best game in Red with 14 points (including a crazy runner to force the second OT) and 7 Rebounds. Daryl Smith huge in the OTs as well.

Hooooooly crap what a finish. I tuned in late in the second half after Cornell had blown a huge lead and got to see them come back with a clutch late 3. Then they blew another big lead in OT and tied it with another clutch three and then, after giving up 2, a great runner to send it to double OT. They led almost all of the double OT as well (though it was close throughout) and almost managed to blow it again with missed free throws, but after Bathurst hit one of two to give them a 3 point lead with 4.2 seconds left, Colgate was able to push the ball up and get a shot in the air at the buzzer and as it fell down inches from the rim… the Colgate video feed cut out. I had to check the Cornell Sports twitter account to make sure that it didn't go in.

Frustrating but ultimately excellent. A great week for the Big Red against the Red Raiders.

mountainred
Big Red survive in double OT 101-98. The key in the second OT was to fall behind by 4

nice

ugarte
Hooooooly crap what a finish. I tuned in late in the second half after Cornell had blown a huge lead and got to see them come back with a clutch late 3. Then they blew another big lead in OT and tied it with another clutch three and then, after giving up 2, a great runner to send it to double OT. They led almost all of the double OT as well (though it was close throughout) and almost managed to blow it again with missed free throws, but after Bathurst hit one of two to give them a 3 point lead with 4.2 seconds left, Colgate was able to push the ball up and get a shot in the air at the buzzer and as it fell down inches from the rim… the Colgate video feed cut out. I had to check the Cornell Sports twitter account to make sure that it didn't go in.

Frustrating but ultimately excellent. A great week for the Big Red against the Red Raiders.

Gutty win on a night they could have quit. Colgate is going to show the attempted home run inbounds with about a minute left in regulation over and over and over in the film room. Foolish play and led to Daryl hitting the big trey in the corner.

mountainred

ugarte
Hooooooly crap what a finish. I tuned in late in the second half after Cornell had blown a huge lead and got to see them come back with a clutch late 3. Then they blew another big lead in OT and tied it with another clutch three and then, after giving up 2, a great runner to send it to double OT. They led almost all of the double OT as well (though it was close throughout) and almost managed to blow it again with missed free throws, but after Bathurst hit one of two to give them a 3 point lead with 4.2 seconds left, Colgate was able to push the ball up and get a shot in the air at the buzzer and as it fell down inches from the rim… the Colgate video feed cut out. I had to check the Cornell Sports twitter account to make sure that it didn't go in.

Frustrating but ultimately excellent. A great week for the Big Red against the Red Raiders.

Gutty win on a night they could have quit. Colgate is going to show the attempted home run inbounds with about a minute left in regulation over and over and over in the film room. Foolish play and led to Daryl hitting the big trey in the corner.

I have to say, I thought the home run ball was a product of Cornell guarding the inbounds well. A guy broke out when the more rational options were all covered. The cameraman didn't do a great job of following the ball but I'll bet the pass didn't miss by much.

Two in row. Cornell 76 Bingo 59. The Bearcats made a few runs, but most of this game was played at a double digit spread.

Matt Morgan with 24, Daryl Smith with 16 which is nice to see.

mountainred
Two in row. Cornell 76 Bingo 59. ...

Too bad Binghamton doesn't also have a football team. Unless it took football as seriously as Colgate does.

Back to .500. Canisius 87 Cornell 62. The loss isn't a surprise, the Griffs are solid and it was on the road, but the margin was disappointing. Especially since The Big Red lead by a point early in the second half.

And back to .500. After a win over a D3 opponent, the Big Red get blown out at Pitt. Didn't expect a win, but hoped it would be a bit more competitive.

mountainred
And back to .500. After a win over a D3 opponent, the Big Red get blown out at Pitt. Didn't expect a win, but hoped it would be a bit more competitive.

we lost by a lot against canisius. when pitt played gonzaga they were winning when the game got called. this is what i expected.

You expect we miss our first 13 shots, and lose by 44? How many Ivy games do you expect us to win?

CAS
You expect we miss our first 13 shots, and lose by 44? How many Ivy games do you expect us to win?

Hey, we only missed our first 12 shots.

I hoped to see a better effort, but having a Pitt law grad friend text me score updates throughout the night - even though he knew I was watching - probably colored my mood.

Next week will be a lot more telling than this past week's easy win and ugly loss. Sunday is a very winnable game at UMass-Lowell; Tuesday is a tough one at home against a solid Siena team and the following Saturday is at home versus a Layfayette team who just got embarrassed by Princeton 104-52. Going into the exam break at 5-4 is very possible.

Big Red lose on the road at UMass-Lowell 80-77. Guys fall behind by 15, but fight back so it is close throughout the second half. The good: Cornell forces 23 turnovers and freshman Matt Morgan scores 23 with 4 assists. The bad: UML outrebounded the Red by 46-27.

mountainred
Big Red lose on the road at UMass-Lowell 80-77. Guys fall behind by 15, but fight back so it is close throughout the second half. The good: Cornell forces 23 turnovers and freshman Matt Morgan scores 23 with 4 assists. The bad: UML outrebounded the Red by 46-27.

Cornell doesn't have a lot of height this year, being outrebounded will most likely happen often.

Ken711

mountainred
Big Red lose on the road at UMass-Lowell 80-77. Guys fall behind by 15, but fight back so it is close throughout the second half. The good: Cornell forces 23 turnovers and freshman Matt Morgan scores 23 with 4 assists. The bad: UML outrebounded the Red by 46-27.

Cornell doesn't have a lot of height this year, being outrebounded will most likely happen often.

True, but UML has even less. They started four guys 6-3 or shorter. Getting rebounded by UML is a bad, bad sign; Yale may collect every rebound.

Of course we follow the UML debacle with the best win by an Ivy this season. 81-80 over Siena. Hatter couldn't miss in the second half as the Big Red continue to match up well with the Saints. Cornell won handily there last year and even during the nightmarish 13-14 season, the Red played Siena down to the final horn.

Seriously, Siena has the best KenPom rating of any team that an Ivy has beaten so far this season. It was a quality win.

And UML was the worst team to beat an Ivy this season. Weird.

mountainred
And UML was the worst team to beat an Ivy this season. Weird.

Only just beginning. Hockey will probably have quality wins (ties?) over a top five team and then lose to an American International level team.

billhoward

mountainred
And UML was the worst team to beat an Ivy this season. Weird.

Only just beginning. Hockey will probably have quality wins (ties?) over a top five team and then lose to an American International level team.

This is the bball thread Bill. Hockey doesn't count.

KeithK

billhoward

mountainred
And UML was the worst team to beat an Ivy this season. Weird.

Only just beginning. Hockey will probably have quality wins (ties?) over a top five team and then lose to an American International level team.

This is the bball thread Bill. Hockey doesn't count.

The only thing worse than idle, counter-factual speculation is off-topic idle, counter-factual speculation.

Easy 85-67 win over Lafayette. 43-33 at the half. Hatter with 29.

Al DeFlorio
Easy 85-67 win over Lafayette. 43-33 at the half. Hatter with 29.

One of the better performances I've seen during Courtney's 6 years as HC. Lafayette has really taken a step back this year and is not very good, but Cornell can clearly play competitvely with most mid-majors.

scoop85

Al DeFlorio
Easy 85-67 win over Lafayette. 43-33 at the half. Hatter with 29.

One of the better performances I've seen during Courtney's 6 years as HC. Lafayette has really taken a step back this year and is not very good, but Cornell can clearly play competitvely with most mid-majors.

Was watching the wrestlers, so I missed the game. Lafayette isn't very good, but they did knock off Penn, so an 18 point win over them is solid.

Tossing out the D3 gimme, Cornell is 3-0 when Hatter scores 29 or more, 1-4 when he scores under 20. He has no games in between. It may really come down to: "If Hatter is on, Cornell can stay with anyone outside the top 100 or so; if he's not, the Big Red will struggle to score enough to win."

Today's noon game at Syracuse will apparently be on Yes Network on Cablevision in the NYC area.

jeff '84
Today's noon game at Syracuse will apparently be on Yes Network on Cablevision in the NYC area.

Down by 4 at the half, Cornell went on a 6-0 run to take the lead. Then it got very ugly. Syracuse by 21.

ugarte

jeff '84
Today's noon game at Syracuse will apparently be on Yes Network on Cablevision in the NYC area.

Down by 4 at the half, Cornell went on a 6-0 run to take the lead. Then it got very ugly. Syracuse by 21.

Should have been the Oh No network. Too bad the Cornell press guide doesn't show the Cornell-Syracuse series results versus the point spread. Then we'd have a fighting chance.

Right now, Kenpom.com projects Cornell to finish in a four way tie for 5th in the Ivies at 5-9. Brown is a mess and just had a guy transfer back to Florida Atlantic. Penn is 2-5 after a quick start and just barely beat D3 Ursinus. Dartmouth just got punished by UNH. The bottom half of the league is not very good this year, so 5th place is very realistic.

Monmouth on Wednesday is a tough one -- much tougher than when it was scheduled. The Hawks have beaten UCLA, USC, Notre Dame and Georgetown already this season.

mountainred

Monmouth on Wednesday is a tough one -- much tougher than when it was scheduled. The Hawks have beaten UCLA, USC, Notre Dame and Georgetown already this season.

That's an understatement. They are going to stunt on us AND reenact the Titanic maidenhead scene.

mountainred
Right now, Kenpom.com projects Cornell to finish in a four way tie for 5th in the Ivies at 5-9. . . . The bottom half of the league is not very good this year, so 5th place is very realistic.

If we finish in a four-way tie for 5th in an 8-team league, it means we finished in a four-way tie for last place. There will be no one below us in the standings. I suppose it's better than finishing 7th or 8th.

ugarte

mountainred

Monmouth on Wednesday is a tough one -- much tougher than when it was scheduled. The Hawks have beaten UCLA, USC, Notre Dame and Georgetown already this season.

That's an understatement. They are going to stunt on us AND reenact the Titanic maidenhead scene.

Did the Monmouth kids do anything interesting? (Aside from win?)

ugarte

ugarte

mountainred

Monmouth on Wednesday is a tough one -- much tougher than when it was scheduled. The Hawks have beaten UCLA, USC, Notre Dame and Georgetown already this season.

That's an understatement. They are going to stunt on us AND reenact the Titanic maidenhead scene.

Did the Monmouth kids do anything interesting? (Aside from win?)

Didn't see anything remarkable. They did come back from a 23-10 deficit to win.

Harvard leading #3 Oklahoma by two at the half of the Diamond Head tournament final.

Al DeFlorio
Harvard leading #3 Oklahoma by two at the half of the Diamond Head tournament final.

but the good guys cruised to an easy win in the second half

ugarte

Al DeFlorio
Harvard leading #3 Oklahoma by two at the half of the Diamond Head tournament final.

but the good guys cruised to an easy win in the second half

Harvard actually made a real nice run following OU's monster run to start the 2nd half. Endowasoma, who was maybe the most hyped b-ball recruit in Harvard history but has been a bit of disappointment so far, had a great game for Harvard

Harvard wants to dominate not just the Ivy League, but nationally in basketball.

[www.lowellsun.com]

For some reason Derek Hatter didn't play. Without him, Cornell took Columbia to the wire on the road (and looked very good on defense) but lost by 4. Morgan lit it up and scored 29.

The last 20 seconds were exciting as hell. I like this squad but wish they could finish better at the rim.

Decent Cornell turnout at the game. I guess break isn't over at Columbia either because last year this game was packed.

ugarte
For some reason Derek Hatter didn't play.

According to story in Sun, Hatter showed up at the game wearing a walking boot.

dbilmes

ugarte
For some reason Derek Hatter didn't play.

According to story in Sun, Hatter showed up at the game wearing a walking boot.

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH

FYI, Courtney isn't going anywhere. The frosh looked good and the defense looked great. If this game is any indication of how the rest of the season is going to go, I think he'll get a new contract.

ugarte

dbilmes

ugarte
For some reason Derek Hatter didn't play.

According to story in Sun, Hatter showed up at the game wearing a walking boot.

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH

FYI, Courtney isn't going anywhere. The frosh looked good and the defense looked great. If this game is any indication of how the rest of the season is going to go, I think he'll get a new contract.

And, based upon the little that I know, he probably deserves it. It seems like he has some good freshmen and won't lose much next year.

This is year 6 of the Courtney era. We are 24-47 in the Ivies, 0-1 this year. We haven't finished in the top half of the Ivies in any of these years. Let's see how this year turns out. Do you think this performance over 5 and 1/2 years merits a new contract?

Columbia also won the return engagement in Ithaca, 79-68, dropping Cornell to 0-2 in the Ivies.

With the 2 losses to Columbia to start this Ivy season, Cornell in the 5-plus years under Courtney has now lost exactly 2/3 of its Ivy games (48 of 72). Btw Football in the 3 years under Coach Archer has lost 81% of its Ivy games (17 of 21).

CAS
With the 2 losses to Columbia to start this Ivy season, Cornell in the 5-plus years under Courtney has now lost exactly 2/3 of its Ivy games (48 of 72). Btw Football in the 3 years under Coach Archer has lost 81% of its Ivy games (17 of 21).

The hits just keep on coming

scoop85

CAS
With the 2 losses to Columbia to start this Ivy season, Cornell in the 5-plus years under Courtney has now lost exactly 2/3 of its Ivy games (48 of 72). Btw Football in the 3 years under Coach Archer has lost 81% of its Ivy games (17 of 21).

The hits just keep on coming

And these are the so-called major sports programs.

Cornell hoops plays at defending Ivy champ Harvard tonight, & Dartmouth, which upset Harvard last Saturday, tomorrow.

CAS
Cornell hoops plays at defending Ivy champ Harvard tonight, & Dartmouth, which upset Harvard last Saturday, tomorrow.

DOWN GOES HARVARD.

Big win by Cornell. With the free throws at the end, the Big Red run away for a 12 point win.

ugarte

CAS
Cornell hoops plays at defending Ivy champ Harvard tonight, & Dartmouth, which upset Harvard last Saturday, tomorrow.

DOWN GOES HARVARD.

Big win by Cornell. With the free throws at the end, the Big Red run away for a 12 point win.

Wild game. Down by 8 early. Up by 15 at the half. Down again early second half. Score last 13 points to win by 12.

Big win. Do you think it will save Courtney's job? Do we want to save Courtney's job?

Harvard, with losses of several key players due to graduation and injury, is not the team that dominated the Ivies recently. Harvard's record is now 9-10. Courtney should be judged by his record over his entire tenure at Cornell.

since the BOT care so little about sports at cornell , and care little about anything at cornell it seems except profits in the endowment , we may see little change in any sport no matter the results.

I think this is the most watchable team Courtney has put together, and guys like Hatter, Morgan, and Smith are tremendous players for this level, his inability to bring in a big man with an offensive game is troubling. That being said, if the team is at or even near .500 this year, hard to see Noel pulling the plug, as next year's roster would appear to be Courtney's best yet.

Swampy
Big win. Do you think it will save Courtney's job? Do we want to save Courtney's job?

Yes & Yes. Courtney is the best recruiter the program has ever had. If anything, he should have brought in an experienced former HC as an assistant to help him learn on the job. Basketball is never going to get a successful HC to build its program. Team is starting to show promise and is pretty young. Give him an extension.

You are what your record is. Courtney is 25-46 in the Ivies, 1-2 this year. Does winning a third of your games merit an extension? In the 6 years before Courtney was hired, Steve Donahue had 6 consecutive winning Ivy records, never finishing below 3rd in the league. We haven't finished in the top half of the Ivies since.

ithacat

Swampy
Big win. Do you think it will save Courtney's job? Do we want to save Courtney's job?

Yes & Yes. Courtney is the best recruiter the program has ever had. If anything, he should have brought in an experienced former HC as an assistant to help him learn on the job. Basketball is never going to get a successful HC to build its program. Team is starting to show promise and is pretty young. Give him an extension.

An experienced former HC as an assistant why would they have wanted that job. If the team finishes last in the final Ivy League standings, it's time to move on.,

Another fantastic finish: trailing 61-70, 15 straight points makes it 76-70 and a final score of 77-73.

Al DeFlorio
Another fantastic finish: trailing 61-70, 15 straight points makes it 76-70 and a final score of 77-73.

thank god for hoops lol

When will Hatter return? Smith another 33 points tonight. Only question is will he be Ivy POTW or Ivy Rookie OTW?

margolism
When will Hatter return? Smith another 33 points tonight. Only question is will he be Ivy POTW or Ivy Rookie OTW?

Morgan, not Smith, had 32.

CAS
You are what your record is. Courtney is 25-46 in the Ivies, 1-2 this year. Does winning a third of your games merit an extension? In the 6 years before Courtney was hired, Steve Donahue had 6 consecutive winning Ivy records, never finishing below 3rd in the league. We haven't finished in the top half of the Ivies since.

Here are the records of the last two coaches in their first five years:
3-11 (7th)
2-12 (7th)
4-10 (5th)
6-8 (5th)
8-6 (2nd)
Total: 23-47


6-8 (5th)
7-7 (5th)
5-9 (6th)
1-13 (8th)
5-9 (5th)
Total: 24-46

Winning a third of his Ivy games was enough to keep Donahue in Ithaca. If you're wondering, both coaches started year 6 at 2-2. Courtney lost two games to Columbia. Donahue lost at home to the Lions and got beat by 40 at Penn.

Columbia is 4-0 in league and 15-6 overall. They no sucky sucky.

Trotsky
Columbia is 4-0 in league and 15-6 overall. They no sucky sucky.

And, at least in NYC, we could have had them if our guys finished just a little better at the rim that night.

ugarte

Trotsky
Columbia is 4-0 in league and 15-6 overall. They no sucky sucky.

And, at least in NYC, we could have had them if our guys finished just a little better at the rim that night.

Having Hatter on the court would have helped, too.

Chris '03

CAS
You are what your record is. Courtney is 25-46 in the Ivies, 1-2 this year. Does winning a third of your games merit an extension? In the 6 years before Courtney was hired, Steve Donahue had 6 consecutive winning Ivy records, never finishing below 3rd in the league. We haven't finished in the top half of the Ivies since.

Here are the records of the last two coaches in their first five years:
3-11 (7th)
2-12 (7th)
4-10 (5th)
6-8 (5th)
8-6 (2nd)
Total: 23-47


6-8 (5th)
7-7 (5th)
5-9 (6th)
1-13 (8th)
5-9 (5th)
Total: 24-46

Winning a third of his Ivy games was enough to keep Donahue in Ithaca. If you're wondering, both coaches started year 6 at 2-2. Courtney lost two games to Columbia. Donahue lost at home to the Lions and got beat by 40 at Penn.

To play Devil's Advocate here, let's just say that the state of the program inherited by Donahue was just a bit different than the one inherited by Courtney. The three seasons prior to Donahue's hire, the team went a combined 30-49 (15-27 Ivy). I'm sure you see where this is going, but Courtney inherited a program coming off the three best years in school history, culminating in a high profile run to the Sweet 16 that at the very least should have made it a bit easier to recruit. (For completeness, those 3 teams went 72-21 (38-4 Ivy) - Miss you Witt/Lou/Foote). I was firmly in the fire Courtney corner for most of the last two years, and I still think he's a terrible tactical coach, but it's hard to argue with the quality of the players he's brought to Ithaca. If Ivy League rules didn't strip Miller of his eligibility to finish here, we're likely looking at a contender to win the Ivies.

semsox

Chris '03

CAS
You are what your record is. Courtney is 25-46 in the Ivies, 1-2 this year. Does winning a third of your games merit an extension? In the 6 years before Courtney was hired, Steve Donahue had 6 consecutive winning Ivy records, never finishing below 3rd in the league. We haven't finished in the top half of the Ivies since.

Here are the records of the last two coaches in their first five years:
3-11 (7th)
2-12 (7th)
4-10 (5th)
6-8 (5th)
8-6 (2nd)
Total: 23-47


6-8 (5th)
7-7 (5th)
5-9 (6th)
1-13 (8th)
5-9 (5th)
Total: 24-46

Winning a third of his Ivy games was enough to keep Donahue in Ithaca. If you're wondering, both coaches started year 6 at 2-2. Courtney lost two games to Columbia. Donahue lost at home to the Lions and got beat by 40 at Penn.

To play Devil's Advocate here, let's just say that the state of the program inherited by Donahue was just a bit different than the one inherited by Courtney. The three seasons prior to Donahue's hire, the team went a combined 30-49 (15-27 Ivy). I'm sure you see where this is going, but Courtney inherited a program coming off the three best years in school history, culminating in a high profile run to the Sweet 16 that at the very least should have made it a bit easier to recruit. (For completeness, those 3 teams went 72-21 (38-4 Ivy) - Miss you Witt/Lou/Foote). I was firmly in the fire Courtney corner for most of the last two years, and I still think he's a terrible tactical coach, but it's hard to argue with the quality of the players he's brought to Ithaca. If Ivy League rules didn't strip Miller of his eligibility to finish here, we're likely looking at a contender to win the Ivies.

To play counter-devil's-advocate, Donohue's last year had a historically great Cornell senior class, assembled by almost pure luck. Foote ended up at Cornell because Gant almost died; Wittman happened to have a rich dad and a HS-senior-year injury; Dale was a 5'9" guard from Birmingham with Ivy-quality SATs (IIRC) and found Cornell, rather than the reverse. They all walked out the door when Donohue did, leaving a very depleted team behind and the exact same recruiting disadvantages that the Big Red have always had (less generous financial aid, less prestigious name*, godawful weather).

*Shut up, engineers. There are very few of you playing in the big-name sports.

Courtney's teams have always played good D and this year they have done some real good work. I'd be stunned if he were turfed unless the whole season craters.

Al Deflorio
Having Hatter on the court would have helped, too.

Yeah, probably, though Morgan has really grabbed the reins with Hatter out. Obviously I'd love to have them both on the court but I wonder if there is enough oxygen for both or if they overlap too much.

semsox

Chris '03

CAS
You are what your record is. Courtney is 25-46 in the Ivies, 1-2 this year. Does winning a third of your games merit an extension? In the 6 years before Courtney was hired, Steve Donahue had 6 consecutive winning Ivy records, never finishing below 3rd in the league. We haven't finished in the top half of the Ivies since.

Here are the records of the last two coaches in their first five years:
3-11 (7th)
2-12 (7th)
4-10 (5th)
6-8 (5th)
8-6 (2nd)
Total: 23-47


6-8 (5th)
7-7 (5th)
5-9 (6th)
1-13 (8th)
5-9 (5th)
Total: 24-46

Winning a third of his Ivy games was enough to keep Donahue in Ithaca. If you're wondering, both coaches started year 6 at 2-2. Courtney lost two games to Columbia. Donahue lost at home to the Lions and got beat by 40 at Penn.

To play Devil's Advocate here, let's just say that the state of the program inherited by Donahue was just a bit different than the one inherited by Courtney. The three seasons prior to Donahue's hire, the team went a combined 30-49 (15-27 Ivy). I'm sure you see where this is going, but Courtney inherited a program coming off the three best years in school history, culminating in a high profile run to the Sweet 16 that at the very least should have made it a bit easier to recruit. (For completeness, those 3 teams went 72-21 (38-4 Ivy) - Miss you Witt/Lou/Foote). I was firmly in the fire Courtney corner for most of the last two years, and I still think he's a terrible tactical coach, but it's hard to argue with the quality of the players he's brought to Ithaca. If Ivy League rules didn't strip Miller of his eligibility to finish here, we're likely looking at a contender to win the Ivies.

That's fair, in part. The '11 team was never going to be as successful as the '08-'10 teams. It's not as if Steve left a core behind when he jumped to BC. The '10 team was its seniors. It's hard to blame the regression (from to the zenith of modern Cornell basketball) on a coach who had no hand in selecting the talent.

Morgan Ivy co-player of the week AND rookie of the week.

He is the 4th leading score among freshman in the country.

To follow up a great weekend, we get Hatter back aaaaaaaaaand lose to Brown. Come on.

ugarte
To follow up a great weekend, we get Hatter back aaaaaaaaaand lose to Brown. Come on.

It's an old story, but Courtney's in-game coaching has not gotten better in almost 6 years.

scoop85

ugarte
To follow up a great weekend, we get Hatter back aaaaaaaaaand lose to Brown. Come on.

It's an old story, but Courtney's in-game coaching has not gotten better in almost 6 years.

So true.

Luck always plays a role in sports and recruiting. Ed Marinaro was overlooked by football recruiters because of a knee injury his senior year. Chris Vandenburg who was a highly regarded basketball recruit (Personally recruited on campus by Hunter Rawlings) hardly ever got on the floor because of knee problems. The list goes on. There is a reason that athletic recruits are called prospects-for most one does not know how they will develop. For many of the kids who hold these "Signing Press Conferences" where they announce their choice of college things do not work out for them athletically. Credit on the other hand should go to Donahue and his staff for the way they developed Jeff Foote and the tendency to overlook other members of the Sweet 16 team besides Foote, Dale, and Wittman who contributed in great measure to that team's success.

Cornell smacked down by Yale losing 52-83.

rss77
Luck always plays a role in sports and recruiting. Ed Marinaro was overlooked by football recruiters because of a knee injury his senior year. Chris Vandenburg who was a highly regarded basketball recruit (Personally recruited on campus by Hunter Rawlings) hardly ever got on the floor because of knee problems. The list goes on. There is a reason that athletic recruits are called prospects-for most one does not know how they will develop. For many of the kids who hold these "Signing Press Conferences" where they announce their choice of college things do not work out for them athletically. Credit on the other hand should go to Donahue and his staff for the way they developed Jeff Foote and the tendency to overlook other members of the Sweet 16 team besides Foote, Dale, and Wittman who contributed in great measure to that team's success.

All true and well said. My point was less to diminish Donohue and what he did for the program and more to say that his peak is a bad point of comparison for future coaches (including Courtney) both because it was so uncharacteristic of the program, historically and because of the unlikely way the team came togehter.

Nice to see Shonn Miller drove down to Yale last weekend to cheer on his former teammates. Too bad that the stupidity of Ivy League rules prevented him from playing for the Big Red.

Cornell falls to Princeton 85-56 tonite. Cornell is now 2-5 in Ivies this year, and 26-49 in Bill Courtney's 6 years.

CAS
Cornell falls to Princeton 85-56 tonite. Cornell is now 2-5 in Ivies this year, and 26-49 in Bill Courtney's 6 years.

Unfortunately more evidence that Courtney is in over his head and needs to go.

Courtney's Ivy record is actually 26-51 over the 6 years. Steve Donahue returns to Ithaca with Penn tonite.

CAS
Courtney's Ivy record is actually 26-51 over the 6 years. Steve Donahue returns to Ithaca with Penn tonite.

Make that 26-52, as Cornell loses to Penn 92-84.

Not looking so good!

Ken711

CAS
Courtney's Ivy record is actually 26-51 over the 6 years. Steve Donahue returns to Ithaca with Penn tonite.

Make that 26-52, as Cornell loses to Penn 92-84.

Now at 26-53 with loss to Dartmouth.

Cornell blows a 21 point halftime lead at home and loses to Harvard by 2. Good lord.

ugarte
Cornell blows a 21 point halftime lead at home and loses to Harvard by 2. Good lord.

Now 26-54 for Courtney. Andy needs to make a change now after the season.

Final tonite - Penn 79 - Cornell 67. Penn under Donahue is now 5-5 in Ivies. Cornell loses its 7th straight, falls to 2-9 and last in Ivies.

Money talks....so just stop sending money to support the program.

Cornell Ivy record under Steve Donahue 2004/5-2009/10 - 63-21
Cornell Ivy record under his successor, Bill Courtney 2010/11-present - 26-55

CAS
Cornell Ivy record under Steve Donahue 2004/5-2009/10 - 63-21
Cornell Ivy record under his successor, Bill Courtney 2010/11-present - 26-55

Courtney needs to go, but it doesn't make sense to show only the half of Donahue's tenure during which Cornell was good.