Basketball 2014-15

Skimming the final scores, a quick tally shows Cornell has yet to win a game where the margin was 5 or less. If we split those, we'd be 14-8.

Cornell losing margins after Penn/Princeton Feb. 6-7. Lost by:
0 (tied end regulation, lost by 7 OT)
1
2 twice
3
5
8
>10 four times

Cornell winning margins. Won by:
6
7
8 three times
10 twice
>10 four times

Maybe there's a solid reason like Cornell doesn't have the bench depth of opponents.

Last nite our 3 senior starters combined for all but 6 of Cornell's points in a 62-51 loss to Yale.

Another Courtney collapse. I'm shocked.

ithacat
Another Courtney collapse. I'm shocked.

Brown 57, Cornell 56 on a shot with 2 seconds to play. Cornell led the game for 39:28 of the 40 minutes. Leaving Cornell at, I believe, either just one or two games won where the margin of victory was 5 points or less, or it went to OT.

billhoward

ithacat
Another Courtney collapse. I'm shocked.

Brown 57, Cornell 56 on a shot with 2 seconds to play. Cornell led the game for 39:28 of the 40 minutes. Leaving Cornell at, I believe, either just one or two games won where the margin of victory was 5 points or less, or it went to OT.

11 point lead at the half. 17 point lead in the second half...this isn't the only time this season, and this isn't the only season of it either. Penn State, Drexel, Penn come to mind this season.

I feel bad for Courtney. He seems like a good guy and he has brought in better athletes than program has probably ever had. I just wish he could coach them.

ithacat
Another Courtney collapse. I'm shocked.

I was at the hockey game and the announced the b-ball score. We had a 5 or 6 point lead. I found myself thinking "I hope they don't blow it again."

Then I heard that they did.

ithacat

billhoward

ithacat
Another Courtney collapse. I'm shocked.

Brown 57, Cornell 56 on a shot with 2 seconds to play. Cornell led the game for 39:28 of the 40 minutes. Leaving Cornell at, I believe, either just one or two games won where the margin of victory was 5 points or less, or it went to OT.

11 point lead at the half. 17 point lead in the second half...this isn't the only time this season, and this isn't the only season of it either. Penn State, Drexel, Penn come to mind this season.

I feel bad for Courtney. He seems like a good guy and he has brought in better athletes than program has probably ever had. I just wish he could coach them.

Maybe the talent is mostly the starting five, and the bench is short (more ways than one) and not same caliber. Some would Syracuse caught up to Cornell in the 2009 lax title game because we wore out the first midfield in the first three quarters. 'course, it wasn't worn out players that didn't call a time-out with 3 seconds to play.

Courtney has one more year on his contract? A .500 coach (more or less) is not going to be let go with a year left.

I've read this is the last year of a 5-year contract. Courtney's teams are 23-43 in the Ivies, and 4-6 this year.

CAS
I've read this is the last year of a 5-year contract. Courtney's teams are 23-43 in the Ivies, and 4-6 this year.

I think he's in the last year as well.

billhoward

ithacat

billhoward

ithacat
Another Courtney collapse. I'm shocked.

Brown 57, Cornell 56 on a shot with 2 seconds to play. Cornell led the game for 39:28 of the 40 minutes. Leaving Cornell at, I believe, either just one or two games won where the margin of victory was 5 points or less, or it went to OT.

11 point lead at the half. 17 point lead in the second half...this isn't the only time this season, and this isn't the only season of it either. Penn State, Drexel, Penn come to mind this season.

I feel bad for Courtney. He seems like a good guy and he has brought in better athletes than program has probably ever had. I just wish he could coach them.

Maybe the talent is mostly the starting five, and the bench is short (more ways than one) and not same caliber. Some would Syracuse caught up to Cornell in the 2009 lax title game because we wore out the first midfield in the first three quarters. 'course, it wasn't worn out players that didn't call a time-out with 3 seconds to play.

Courtney has one more year on his contract? A .500 coach (more or less) is not going to be let go with a year left.

I think this is the final season of his current contract. It wouldn't surprise me if he receives an extension.

ithacat

billhoward

ithacat

billhoward

ithacat
Another Courtney collapse. I'm shocked.

Brown 57, Cornell 56 on a shot with 2 seconds to play. Cornell led the game for 39:28 of the 40 minutes. Leaving Cornell at, I believe, either just one or two games won where the margin of victory was 5 points or less, or it went to OT.

11 point lead at the half. 17 point lead in the second half...this isn't the only time this season, and this isn't the only season of it either. Penn State, Drexel, Penn come to mind this season.

I feel bad for Courtney. He seems like a good guy and he has brought in better athletes than program has probably ever had. I just wish he could coach them.

Maybe the talent is mostly the starting five, and the bench is short (more ways than one) and not same caliber. Some would Syracuse caught up to Cornell in the 2009 lax title game because we wore out the first midfield in the first three quarters. 'course, it wasn't worn out players that didn't call a time-out with 3 seconds to play.

Courtney has one more year on his contract? A .500 coach (more or less) is not going to be let go with a year left.

I think this is the final season of his current contract. It wouldn't surprise me if he receives an extension.

That seems to be the scuttlebutt, although few coaches would be less deserving on an extension based on his team's 5-year performance.

scoop85

ithacat

billhoward

ithacat

billhoward

ithacat
Another Courtney collapse. I'm shocked.

Brown 57, Cornell 56 on a shot with 2 seconds to play. Cornell led the game for 39:28 of the 40 minutes. Leaving Cornell at, I believe, either just one or two games won where the margin of victory was 5 points or less, or it went to OT.

11 point lead at the half. 17 point lead in the second half...this isn't the only time this season, and this isn't the only season of it either. Penn State, Drexel, Penn come to mind this season.

I feel bad for Courtney. He seems like a good guy and he has brought in better athletes than program has probably ever had. I just wish he could coach them.

Maybe the talent is mostly the starting five, and the bench is short (more ways than one) and not same caliber. Some would Syracuse caught up to Cornell in the 2009 lax title game because we wore out the first midfield in the first three quarters. 'course, it wasn't worn out players that didn't call a time-out with 3 seconds to play.

Courtney has one more year on his contract? A .500 coach (more or less) is not going to be let go with a year left.

I think this is the final season of his current contract. It wouldn't surprise me if he receives an extension.

That seems to be the scuttlebutt, although few coaches would be less deserving on an extension based on his team's 5-year performance.

If Steve was given more time then Bill seems deserving of the same opportunity. Their records after 5 years are comparable, even including last season's debacle. If Miller wasn't hurt last year I suspect Bill's record over 5 years would be much better than Steve's was. Bill certainly benefitted from the base that Steve built so it isn't an entirely fair comparison. Steve also showed his program was slowly improving while Bill's seems to be stuck in the same spot, though this could turn out to be his best season.

Steve

7–20	3–11	T–7th	
5–22	2–12	7th	
9–18	4–10	T–5th	
11–16	6–8	T–5th	
13–14	8–6	2nd

45-90   23-47

Bill

10–18	6–8	T–5th	
12–16	7–7	5th	
13–18	5–9	T–6th	
2–26	1–13	8th	
13-14	5-6     T-4th

50-92   24-43

Comparing Bill's record to Steve's is a bit unfair to both. Bill took over a program in much better shape than Steve did. On the other hand, the Ivy League is much better and deeper now than it was at any point in Steve's tenure.

The case for keeping Bill: He is all by all accounts a very good person whom the players like and respect. They played harder than many teams would have down the stretch of last season. The players stay out of trouble and graduate; that still matters at an Ivy (or at least it should). Other than last year's debacle, we've been competitive in an Ivy League that is much deeper than it ever has been. Now that Bill has his players, you see the kind of defense the Big Red will play. Top 100 defenses will be "the new normal" and with any offense, we can go to the post-season (CIT or CBI, if not the big show). Sure, we lose six seniors from this team, but other than Shonn they are replaceable. In short, Bill is fine considering our basketball pedigree and he takes care of the bigger picture stuff.

The case to move on: Last season, he oversaw literally the worst season of Cornell basketball in the school's history; that shouldn't be glossed over. His record over the last three years with Shonn Miller in the line-up is 26-29, without Shonn it's 2-30. We don't have Shonn next year. Seniors account for approximately 60 percent of the minutes and two-thirds of the points on this year's team. Maybe none of the non-Shonn seniors are irreplaceable, but no one on the bench has made a case for more PT. The defensive work is a "flash in the pan" and unsustainable without Miller. Even if it were sustainable, the offense has regressed so that it is worse than last year. The only time we've had a decent offense under Bill is when 'ski was running the point. This program has needed an "X and O guy" for years and he's not found one. He's a great guy, but not a head coach.

I've made my feeling known for a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if Andy gives him an extension because basketball is a low priority and Bill is low maintenance. Unless there is another Shonn Miller in this year's class, doing so will look like a mistake in three years.

mountainred
Comparing Bill's record to Steve's is a bit unfair to both. Bill took over a program in much better shape than Steve did. On the other hand, the Ivy League is much better and deeper now than it was at any point in Steve's tenure.

The case for keeping Bill: He is all by all accounts a very good person whom the players like and respect. They played harder than many teams would have down the stretch of last season. The players stay out of trouble and graduate; that still matters at an Ivy (or at least it should). Other than last year's debacle, we've been competitive in an Ivy League that is much deeper than it ever has been. Now that Bill has his players, you see the kind of defense the Big Red will play. Top 100 defenses will be "the new normal" and with any offense, we can go to the post-season (CIT or CBI, if not the big show). Sure, we lose six seniors from this team, but other than Shonn they are replaceable. In short, Bill is fine considering our basketball pedigree and he takes care of the bigger picture stuff.

The case to move on: Last season, he oversaw literally the worst season of Cornell basketball in the school's history; that shouldn't be glossed over. His record over the last three years with Shonn Miller in the line-up is 26-29, without Shonn it's 2-30. We don't have Shonn next year. Seniors account for approximately 60 percent of the minutes and two-thirds of the points on this year's team. Maybe none of the non-Shonn seniors are irreplaceable, but no one on the bench has made a case for more PT. The defensive work is a "flash in the pan" and unsustainable without Miller. Even if it were sustainable, the offense has regressed so that it is worse than last year. The only time we've had a decent offense under Bill is when 'ski was running the point. This program has needed an "X and O guy" for years and he's not found one. He's a great guy, but not a head coach.

I've made my feeling known for a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if Andy gives him an extension because basketball is a low priority and Bill is low maintenance. Unless there is another Shonn Miller in this year's class, doing so will look like a mistake in three years.

Good analysis. It would give hope going forward if there were some outstanding underclassmen returning, but that as you point out is not the case.

Ken711

mountainred
Comparing Bill's record to Steve's is a bit unfair to both. Bill took over a program in much better shape than Steve did. On the other hand, the Ivy League is much better and deeper now than it was at any point in Steve's tenure.

The case for keeping Bill: He is all by all accounts a very good person whom the players like and respect. They played harder than many teams would have down the stretch of last season. The players stay out of trouble and graduate; that still matters at an Ivy (or at least it should). Other than last year's debacle, we've been competitive in an Ivy League that is much deeper than it ever has been. Now that Bill has his players, you see the kind of defense the Big Red will play. Top 100 defenses will be "the new normal" and with any offense, we can go to the post-season (CIT or CBI, if not the big show). Sure, we lose six seniors from this team, but other than Shonn they are replaceable. In short, Bill is fine considering our basketball pedigree and he takes care of the bigger picture stuff.

The case to move on: Last season, he oversaw literally the worst season of Cornell basketball in the school's history; that shouldn't be glossed over. His record over the last three years with Shonn Miller in the line-up is 26-29, without Shonn it's 2-30. We don't have Shonn next year. Seniors account for approximately 60 percent of the minutes and two-thirds of the points on this year's team. Maybe none of the non-Shonn seniors are irreplaceable, but no one on the bench has made a case for more PT. The defensive work is a "flash in the pan" and unsustainable without Miller. Even if it were sustainable, the offense has regressed so that it is worse than last year. The only time we've had a decent offense under Bill is when 'ski was running the point. This program has needed an "X and O guy" for years and he's not found one. He's a great guy, but not a head coach.

I've made my feeling known for a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if Andy gives him an extension because basketball is a low priority and Bill is low maintenance. Unless there is another Shonn Miller in this year's class, doing so will look like a mistake in three years.

Good analysis. It would give hope going forward if there were some outstanding underclassmen returning, but that as you point out is not the case.

Thanks. It's too early to write-off this year's freshman class, but most of Bill's recruits have shown how good they will be during their freshman year. I wouldn't surprised if Pat Smith and Jordan Abdur-Ra'oof are contributors going forward, but neither looks like a future all-Ivy. We have six incoming freshman, but the only one who is rated by ESPN is Stone Gettings (#65 PF). ESPN describes his game as: "He can step out and knock in the 17-foot jump shot as he fits that pick-and-pop 4-man description to a tee." That sounds like a perfect Donahue player -- a Jon Jacques clone -- but an awful fit for Courtney's system. Here's hoping some other guys emerge from the class.

The New York Times writes about Shonn Miller and the possibilities for his final season of eligibility. Tommy Amaker and Bill Courtney both say he could play for a major.
[www.nytimes.com]

Weder
Tommy Amaker and Bill Courtney both say he could play for a major.

There's not much question he could play for a big time program; he's really that good. But it's not as unusual as you seem to think. Nolan Cressler transferred to Vandy. Errick Peck played 15 minutes a game in a post graduate year at Purdue. Dwight Tarwater has earned a starting gig in a post-graduate year at Cal (which is more PT than I figured, nicely done Dwight). So we had four guys on 2012-13 squad who play, played or very likely will play for a power 5 program. At the risk of antagonizing Bill, that team finished 13-18 and tied for 6th in the league. Yeah, Miller missed the last four games that season (all losses) but the other three guys played all season.

mountainred

Weder
Tommy Amaker and Bill Courtney both say he could play for a major.

There's not much question he could play for a big time program; he's really that good. But it's not as unusual as you seem to think. Nolan Cressler transferred to Vandy. Errick Peck played 15 minutes a game in a post graduate year at Purdue. Dwight Tarwater has earned a starting gig in a post-graduate year at Cal (which is more PT than I figured, nicely done Dwight). So we had four guys on 2012-13 squad who play, played or very likely will play for a power 5 program. At the risk of antagonizing Bill, that team finished 13-18 and tied for 6th in the league. Yeah, Miller missed the last four games that season (all losses) but the other three guys played all season.

I was just trying to give more detail about what's in the story. I don't think it's unusual at all.

Weder

mountainred

Weder
Tommy Amaker and Bill Courtney both say he could play for a major.

There's not much question he could play for a big time program; he's really that good. But it's not as unusual as you seem to think. Nolan Cressler transferred to Vandy. Errick Peck played 15 minutes a game in a post graduate year at Purdue. Dwight Tarwater has earned a starting gig in a post-graduate year at Cal (which is more PT than I figured, nicely done Dwight). So we had four guys on 2012-13 squad who play, played or very likely will play for a power 5 program. At the risk of antagonizing Bill, that team finished 13-18 and tied for 6th in the league. Yeah, Miller missed the last four games that season (all losses) but the other three guys played all season.

I was just trying to give more detail about what's in the story. I don't think it's unusual at all.

Sorry, read too much into your comment.

Cornell hoops getting crushed by last-place Penn. Red will finish 5-9 in Ivies. Btw Penn has fired their coach Jerome Allen.

In his 5 years at Cornell, Courtney is 24-46 in the Ivies.

Final at Penn 79-72. We finish 13-17, 5-9 (t-5th).

Penn fired Jerome Allen with 2 years left on his contract, requiring a $650,000 buyout. They want to win.

Not the best closing argument for Bill, as the team finishes on a 1-6 streak. Of course, the win was over Harvard.

One bright note from the Penn game, Freshman Wil Bathurst had 20 points and 8 rebounds. Most of that production was after Penn took a 20 point lead, but someone will need to score on next year's team (whether the coach is Bill or someone else).

Yup the team limped to the finish, losing to the other 6 Ivies by an average of 11 points

CAS
Penn fired Jerome Allen with 2 years left on his contract, requiring a $650,000 buyout. They want to win.

Hopefully Donahue doesnt end up there. Courtney has to go, someone new cant possibly do worse, should be able to get at least 1 over 0.500 season in 5 years

Harvard must have made a deal with devil, Yale had the game to clinch the bid last night against Dartmouth locked up and after some missed free throws Dartmouth wins it off an out of bounds play with 0.5 left. Playoff on Saturday at Penn

phillysportsfan

CAS
Penn fired Jerome Allen with 2 years left on his contract, requiring a $650,000 buyout. They want to win.

Hopefully Donahue doesnt end up there. Courtney has to go, someone new cant possibly do worse, should be able to get at least 1 over 0.500 season in 5 years

Harvard must have made a deal with devil, Yale had the game to clinch the bid last night against Dartmouth locked up and after some missed free throws Dartmouth wins it off an out of bounds play with 0.5 left. Playoff on Saturday at Penn

They hired Tommy, so, yes, they made a deal with the devil. Yale was up 5 with about 20 seconds to go and couldn't close the deal. This is going to be a miserable week of practice in New Haven.

mountainred

phillysportsfan

CAS
Penn fired Jerome Allen with 2 years left on his contract, requiring a $650,000 buyout. They want to win.

Hopefully Donahue doesnt end up there. Courtney has to go, someone new cant possibly do worse, should be able to get at least 1 over 0.500 season in 5 years

Harvard must have made a deal with devil, Yale had the game to clinch the bid last night against Dartmouth locked up and after some missed free throws Dartmouth wins it off an out of bounds play with 0.5 left. Playoff on Saturday at Penn

They hired Tommy, so, yes, they made a deal with the devil. Yale was up 5 with about 20 seconds to go and couldn't close the deal. This is going to be a miserable week of practice in New Haven.

Will be rooting hard for Yale on Saturday, Harvard has had enough success recently

Any news whether Courtney will continue, or there will new leadership for hoops?

Andy...

To paraphrase the Rolling Stones...
Andy, Andy, When will those clouds all disappear?

CAS
Andy...

I think I said roughly this last year too but Andy's eyes are on St. Louis at the moment.

Chris '03

CAS
Andy...

I think I said roughly this last year too but Andy's eyes are on St. Louis at the moment.

It was true then and it is true now.

It should be noted that Shonn Miller was a unanimous first-team all-ivy selection. He is just the 5th Cornellian to make two first team all-ivy squads in basketball.

Was but 5 years ago when under Steve Donahue we went to the Sweet 16. We've won 1/3 of our Ivy games since.

CAS
Was but 5 years ago when under Steve Donahue we went to the Sweet 16. We've won 1/3 of our Ivy games since.

Which is why you should be glad if you made it to Syracuse for the Sweet 16 game. This bus doesn't come along that often.

Agree we can't expect to win NCAA games. Nor should we accept losing. You play to win the games.

billhoward

CAS
Was but 5 years ago when under Steve Donahue we went to the Sweet 16. We've won 1/3 of our Ivy games since.

Which is why you should be glad if you made it to Syracuse for the Sweet 16 game. This bus doesn't come along that often.

I hate basketball, but even I'm glad I made it to that game.

CAS
Agree we can't expect to win NCAA games. Nor should we accept losing. You play to win the games.

This nicely sums up why Courtney has to go. We should be able to at least be competitive in the Ivy league at least once in 5 years. How can Andy bring this guy back?

http://cornellbasketball.blogspot.com/2015/03/news-and-notes-tuesday-edition.html
Cornell is now the only Ivy League team to not have participated in the postseason since the 2010-2011 season. See the Valley News on Dartmouth's invite to the CIT. Other low points for Cornell in the last five seasons include the following:
Last year, Cornell (2-26 in 2013-2014) suffered its worst season in program history, dating back to 1898;
Cornell has suffered five consecutive seasons under .500 overall;
Cornell has suffered five consecutive seasons in the "lower division" of the Ivy League;
Cornell has suffered five consecutive overall losing seasons;
Cornell has suffered four of its last five seasons under .500 in Ivy League play.

And even worse the blog guy is saying Courtney is going to get one more year which is just delaying the inevitable:

All signs/rumblings thus far from Cornell/Ithaca is that Bill Courtney is coming back another year.

— Cornell_BB_Blog (@Cornell_BB_Blog) March 12, 2015

+1

The author of the Cornell BB Blog wrote today, "Haven't felt this helpless despair following Cornell MBB since Al Walker era" - early-mid '90's.

CAS
The author of the Cornell BB Blog wrote today, "Haven't felt this helpless despair following Cornell MBB since Al Walker era" - early-mid '90's.

that guy kept defending Courtney to no end, even when it was clear during his first season that he flat out couldn't coach

Even CBB has seen the light

CAS
The author of the Cornell BB Blog wrote today, "Haven't felt this helpless despair following Cornell MBB since Al Walker era" - early-mid '90's.

That's about right. But even Al didn't waste a talent like Shonn Miller.

mountainred

CAS
The author of the Cornell BB Blog wrote today, "Haven't felt this helpless despair following Cornell MBB since Al Walker era" - early-mid '90's.

That's about right. But even Al didn't waste a talent like Shonn Miller.

True enough, though Shonn proved to be his own biggest obstacle. It'll be interesting to see what a big time coach does wth him next season.

underskill

CAS
The author of the Cornell BB Blog wrote today, "Haven't felt this helpless despair following Cornell MBB since Al Walker era" - early-mid '90's.

that guy kept defending Courtney to no end, even when it was clear during his first season that he flat out couldn't coach

Yeah cant believe he has seen the light yet somehow Andy has not

Harvard wins playoff 53-51, Yale misses tip in at the buzzer, tough to be Yale, bad luck to Harvard in the tournament

If Bill Courtney is not retained, maybe start a separate thread "Courtney out / who replaces?" We've had a week of beating up on Courtney (actually, a year) and no real news. I'm about done with this thread. I suppose if over 24 hours there are two dozen posts, it's either a coaching change or somebody mentioned a Prius and the thread turned 90 degrees toward mass transit in Ithaca and why profs should walk a mile to class.

I don't believe any of the criticism has been unfair. You are what your record is. Compare the criticism of Courtney with that of Schafer, who has had 4 losing seasons out of 20.

CAS
I don't believe any of the criticism has been unfair. You are what your record is. Compare the criticism of Courtney with that of Schafer, who has had 4 losing seasons out of 20.

More criticism of the sports lots of fans are passionate about. Not much said about crew or polo having a bad or good year.

billhoward

CAS
I don't believe any of the criticism has been unfair. You are what your record is. Compare the criticism of Courtney with that of Schafer, who has had 4 losing seasons out of 20.

More criticism of the sports lots of fans are passionate about. Not much said about crew or polo having a bad or good year.

Don't get me going about polo...that chuck and duck style is killing us.

Steve Donahue to be next Penn coach. Discuss amongst yourselves.

CAS
Steve Donahue to be next Penn coach. Discuss amongst yourselves.

well he wasn't going to return to Ithaca anyways, so good for Penn really.

Do you know if he was asked whether he would return to Ithaca?

CAS
Do you know if he was asked whether he would return to Ithaca?

why would he make a move backwards like that? there's no way he could match that sweet 16 standard again anyways.

There are examples of coaches returning to their prior schools, after not succeeding at big-time programs (e.g. Buddy Teevens back to Dartmouth). Tho I doubt the call was made...

CAS
Steve Donahue to be next Penn coach. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Far from a shock. Where he wanted to be years ago.

Chris '03

CAS
Steve Donahue to be next Penn coach. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Far from a shock. Where he wanted to be years ago.

Exactly. He wanted Philadelphia (he grew up, went to Ursinus in the suburbs), he wanted a Catholic school. Penn is one out of two. He could finish his career there. Be nice to have another Ivy be competitive again. Donahue's ideal job would be Villanova but Jay Wright has been there since 2001, since 2005 has advanced in the NCAAs most every year and if Wright hasn't succumbed to bigger money after FF and Elite 8 rounds, why would he leave now at 53 ... and why would Donahue get the Villanova job after not moving BC up the ladder? We ought to wish him well, except twice a year.

Only Ivy I'd like to be competitive again is Cornell.

Can it get any worse for Cornell basketball, are you alive Andy? Wow that was fast, never thought Donahue would go back there

[www.espnithaca.com]

http://www.thedp.com/blog/buzz/2015/03/cornell-coach-bill-courtney-on-penn-hiring-steve-donahue
And we had an idea that we’d be a lot better this year and we’d have a chance to compete in our league and we were able to do that. We’d have liked to have won some more games but we knew we’d be able to compete and we certainly feel that our program is heading in the right direction and we’re on our way up.

Courtney is out there giving delusional interviews so I guess he is back, what a joke, 5-9 in conference is not competing. Next year with no Miller they will be lucky to get 10 wins

'What a joke' indeed.

billhoward

Chris '03

CAS
Steve Donahue to be next Penn coach. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Far from a shock. Where he wanted to be years ago.

Exactly. He wanted Philadelphia (he grew up, went to Ursinus in the suburbs), he wanted a Catholic school. Penn is one out of two. He could finish his career there. Be nice to have another Ivy be competitive again. Donahue's ideal job would be Villanova but Jay Wright has been there since 2001, since 2005 has advanced in the NCAAs most every year and if Wright hasn't succumbed to bigger money after FF and Elite 8 rounds, why would he leave now at 53 ... and why would Donahue get the Villanova job after not moving BC up the ladder? We ought to wish him well, except twice a year.

Count me as a group of 1 that has doubts he well be Penn's return to glory. It should be easier than at Cornell, and probably easier than BC. However I'm still doubting, we'll see.

The biggest problem with Courtney is that he continues to run his offensive and defensive "systems" (and I hesitate to use the word since it usually implies some sort of underlying framework). I wouldn't even mind BC coming back if he actually hired an assistant coach who could bring in some structure to our offensive and defensive sets. I (like many others) have no qualms with Bill as a recruiter or as a person, but the brand of basketball he's teaching these kids is not, has not, and will not be effective.

We went 2-30 the last 3 years without Miller. What's the over/under for D-1 wins next year? The Cornell Basketball Blog is predicting a season similar to 2013-4 (1-26 vs D-1 teams).

Jim Hyla

billhoward

Chris '03

CAS
Steve Donahue to be next Penn coach. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Far from a shock. Where he wanted to be years ago.

Exactly. He wanted Philadelphia (he grew up, went to Ursinus in the suburbs), he wanted a Catholic school. Penn is one out of two. He could finish his career there. Be nice to have another Ivy be competitive again. Donahue's ideal job would be Villanova but Jay Wright has been there since 2001, since 2005 has advanced in the NCAAs most every year and if Wright hasn't succumbed to bigger money after FF and Elite 8 rounds, why would he leave now at 53 ... and why would Donahue get the Villanova job after not moving BC up the ladder? We ought to wish him well, except twice a year.

Count me as a group of 1 that has doubts he well be Penn's return to glory. It should be easier than at Cornell, and probably easier than BC. However I'm still doubting, we'll see.

He cant do worse than Allen did, they'll at least be more competitive and probably compete for the league title in a few years. I dont think they will return to the absolute dominance their alumni except as Harvard and Amaker arent going anywhere and more teams in the league have started to care since our sweet 16 run. It is just tough to see Donahue go there while we spin in circles

phillysportsfan

Jim Hyla

billhoward

Chris '03

CAS
Steve Donahue to be next Penn coach. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Far from a shock. Where he wanted to be years ago.

Exactly. He wanted Philadelphia (he grew up, went to Ursinus in the suburbs), he wanted a Catholic school. Penn is one out of two. He could finish his career there. Be nice to have another Ivy be competitive again. Donahue's ideal job would be Villanova but Jay Wright has been there since 2001, since 2005 has advanced in the NCAAs most every year and if Wright hasn't succumbed to bigger money after FF and Elite 8 rounds, why would he leave now at 53 ... and why would Donahue get the Villanova job after not moving BC up the ladder? We ought to wish him well, except twice a year.

Count me as a group of 1 that has doubts he well be Penn's return to glory. It should be easier than at Cornell, and probably easier than BC. However I'm still doubting, we'll see.

He cant do worse than Allen did, they'll at least be more competitive and probably compete for the league title in a few years. I dont think they will return to the absolute dominance their alumni except as Harvard and Amaker arent going anywhere and more teams in the league have started to care since our sweet 16 run. It is just tough to see Donahue go there while we spin in circles

If it makes you feel any better, he probably would have left Cornell for this opportunity had he not gone to BC in 2010. He's a Philly guy through and through.

I don't think he'll oversee a bunch of 14-0 Penn teams because the traditional Penn advantages have been eroded by, among other things, the financial aid opportunities at the wealthier Ivies. Yale, longtime also rans in hockey and basketball, just pulled off a rare combination: MIH & MBB Ivy titles in the same season. Ivy talent doesn't all run through the Ps anymore.

I hate Penn but I wish Coach D luck. He's a good guy. Hopefully he can make some noise in the Big 5 and help raise the Ivy League's reputation.

semsox
I wouldn't even mind BC coming back if he actually hired an assistant coach who could bring in some structure to our offensive and defensive sets.

Hmmm. Sounds to me an awful lot like what a head coach does. Why would you look for an assistant to do that unless you were grooming him to eventually BE the head coach?

And has our recruiting actually been good? Has Courtney recruited an all-Ivy player other than Miller? Courtney said Miller was his very first recruit, who committed in the wake of 3 consecutive Ivy titles and the Sweet Sixteen year under Donahue.

Chris '03

phillysportsfan

Jim Hyla

billhoward

Chris '03

CAS
Steve Donahue to be next Penn coach. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Far from a shock. Where he wanted to be years ago.

Exactly. He wanted Philadelphia (he grew up, went to Ursinus in the suburbs), he wanted a Catholic school. Penn is one out of two. He could finish his career there. Be nice to have another Ivy be competitive again. Donahue's ideal job would be Villanova but Jay Wright has been there since 2001, since 2005 has advanced in the NCAAs most every year and if Wright hasn't succumbed to bigger money after FF and Elite 8 rounds, why would he leave now at 53 ... and why would Donahue get the Villanova job after not moving BC up the ladder? We ought to wish him well, except twice a year.

Count me as a group of 1 that has doubts he well be Penn's return to glory. It should be easier than at Cornell, and probably easier than BC. However I'm still doubting, we'll see.

He cant do worse than Allen did, they'll at least be more competitive and probably compete for the league title in a few years. I dont think they will return to the absolute dominance their alumni except as Harvard and Amaker arent going anywhere and more teams in the league have started to care since our sweet 16 run. It is just tough to see Donahue go there while we spin in circles

If it makes you feel any better, he probably would have left Cornell for this opportunity had he not gone to BC in 2010. He's a Philly guy through and through.

I don't think he'll oversea a bunch of 14-0 Penn teams because the traditional Penn advantages have been eroded by, among other things, the financial aid opportunities at the wealthier Ivies. Yale, longtime also rans in hockey and basketball, just pulled off a rare combination: MIH & MBB Ivy titles in the same season. Ivy talent doesn't all run through the Ps anymore.

I hate Penn but I wish Coach D luck. He's a good guy. Hopefully he can make some noise in the Big 5 and help raise the Ivy League's reputation.

I wish Steve the best and think he will do okay at Penn; there are still selling points for Penn basketball and Steve is a good, though probably not great, coach. He'll get the Quakers out of the league cellar, but I agree he won't oversee a bunch of 14-0 Penn teams.

CAS
And has our recruiting actually been good? Has Courtney recruited an all-Ivy player other than Miller? Courtney said Miller was his very first recruit, who committed in the wake of 3 consecutive Ivy titles and the Sweet Sixteen year under Donahue.

To answer your first question, consider that in BC's first two years, using Steve's holdovers who were ill-suited to run Courtney's system, the Big Red won 13 league games. In his last three seasons, using mainly his recruits, there have been 11 league wins. That's not a testament to good recruiting.

As far as your second question, Cressler was HM all-Ivy as a Soph. My guess is that Hatter will be scoring 20+ points a night next year and will make at least HM all-Ivy, though he may set a school record for shots to get there.

Courtney has recruited more athletic guys than Donahue ever did but while occasionally they make amazing plays they are often inconsistent/undisciplined. He never really implemented his "system"

Annoyed seeing these "Giving Day" emails go out while Andy doesnt do his job and fire Courtney

Totally agree Philly. It really is an outrage that Andy has apparently given an extension to a coach who took the basketball program from first to worst. Penn fires a coach and hires Donahue. Columbia fires a coach and hires Bagnoli. And we...

CAS
And we...

Are more interested in churn than the school is.

Chris '03
I hate Penn but I wish Coach D luck. He's a good guy. Hopefully he can make some noise in the Big 5 and help raise the Ivy League's reputation.

If every Ivy team is more competitive in a sport - competitive meaning a chance to make the NCAAs - it's easier to recruit better players at every school.

Wonder if part of the reason they are keeping Courtney are the financial problems on East Hill. The $57 million in cuts that have to be made across the board definitely affects athletics. Doanhue will do well at Penn. There is always an element of luck in recruiting. Yes-Dale, Wittman, and Foote fell into his lap but he had other pieces in place in the supporting cast in players like Jon Jacques, Adam Wire, Errick Peck, etc. He was also able to get quality transfers like Mark Coury from Kentucky who gave quality back-up minutes to Foote and Max Groebe from UMass. After the first 5 years of his reign he gradually upgraded the talent with his recruiting template.

So glad Harvard lost. Whew.

Courtney's contract concluded. Can't understand why he's still the head coach.

Guess Andy doesn't care about men's hoops

CAS
Courtney's contract concluded. Can't understand why he's still the head coach.

We won't be over .500 in winning games with Courtney, book it.

Ken711

CAS
Courtney's contract concluded. Can't understand why he's still the head coach.

We won't be over .500 in winning games with Courtney, book it.

"Over .500?"

"I don't think I'll ever get over .500."

Trotsky

Ken711

CAS
Courtney's contract concluded. Can't understand why he's still the head coach.

We won't be over .500 in winning games with Courtney, book it.

"Over .500?"

"I don't think I'll ever get over .500."

As in win more than 50% of the games he coaches, no I don't see it.

Ken711

Trotsky

Ken711

CAS
Courtney's contract concluded. Can't understand why he's still the head coach.

We won't be over .500 in winning games with Courtney, book it.

"Over .500?"

"I don't think I'll ever get over .500."

As in win more than 50% of the games he coaches, no I don't see it.

Those wounds...run deep.

http://cornellbball.proboards.com/post/22022/thread
I believe it is neither. IMO, Andy extended Bill when the program appeared to be moving in the right direction, but now it is clear it is not.

I don't have any details. I am just told that there is a very small inner circle that is involved. Bill will be back next year and from what I am told, next year is the last year absent a demonstration the program is moving forward.

My hunch is that a one year extension was probably given early this season.

Can only hope this is true as we should be horrible next year losing Miller, Cancer, Cherry. We would be horrible no matter who the next coach is so as was said before it may work out well since new coach wont be stuck with that rough year on his resume. Problem then is Andy needs to hire a better coach than before when the program is at a much worse position than it was 5 years ago. Too bad Spiker probably wont be available, hurts to think where we would be if that Army job didnt open late fall 2009, Spiker would have been the no brainer replacement for Donahue

phillysportsfan

http://cornellbball.proboards.com/post/22022/thread
I believe it is neither. IMO, Andy extended Bill when the program appeared to be moving in the right direction, but now it is clear it is not.

I don't have any details. I am just told that there is a very small inner circle that is involved. Bill will be back next year and from what I am told, next year is the last year absent a demonstration the program is moving forward.

My hunch is that a one year extension was probably given early this season.

Can only hope this is true as we should be horrible next year losing Miller, Cancer, Cherry. We would be horrible no matter who the next coach is so as was said before it may work out well since new coach wont be stuck with that rough year on his resume. Problem then is Andy needs to hire a better coach than before when the program is at a much worse position than it was 5 years ago. Too bad Spiker probably wont be available, hurts to think where we would be if that Army job didnt open late fall 2009, Spiker would have been the no brainer replacement for Donahue

A one year extension seems like a really odd decision. Put aside the issue of whether BC should stay or go, next year is going to be complete reboot. We lose three starters (including one of the best players in school history) and need to replace over 60% of our minutes and our scoring. The only two rising seniors on the roster are guys who have never been part of the rotation and are, at best, lottery tickets to contributing meaningful minutes next season. As Philly said, next year is likely going to be tough regardless of the coach. I guess you keep the large recruiting class intact and get to see if Bill found a transformative class, but otherwise it just seems like a punt.

Sounds more like cost certainty to me.

So is there a suggestion that we extended a coach who took a program from first to worst, because we know his salary? Is this how far we have fallen?

CAS
So is there a suggestion that we extended a coach who took a program from first to worst, because we know his salary? Is this how far we have fallen?

Pure speculation here. If budgets are tight doing a search for a coach in a high profile (nationally) sport puts thosebudgets at risk.

Is this how far we've fallen? It feels like we've just returned to the historic norm for Cornell basketball. (I'm not a fan of the sport so I'm being a little callous about this.)

Courtney had an expiring contract. Would a new coach have cost more than what the extension calls for? I'm not expecting Calipari to come here. Donahue's last 6 teams all had winning Ivy records. Should we just accept/expect losing in basketball? Why field a team then?

CAS
Courtney had an expiring contract. Would a new coach have cost more than what the extension calls for? I'm not expecting Calipari to come here. Donahue's last 6 teams all had winning Ivy records. Should we just accept/expect losing in basketball? Why field a team then?

Following the ideals of intercolliegate athletics one could argue that the purpose of competing is the competition, etc. not the winning. Frequent losing in a sport doesn't necessaily mean we should cancel the program.

From a practical standpoint a school has limited resources and sometimes has to accept a lower standard for one sport in order to promote another that is deemed of more importance. I don't know if that'swhat is happening here but it's possible. Or maybe Courtney just made a really good argument to stay on the job and Andy was so busy and happy following wrestling that he deciding to keep the coach on.

I would think a new coach might cost less as they will likely have less experience than Courtney. Frequent losing is one thing, not trying to start winning is another. After that Sweet 16 run you would think Men's BB would be more of a priority, no other sport at our level provides that national exposure

+1 philly

I wonder if Kevin App might make sense down the road? He's a former CU basketball captain ('07), and he just landed the Head Coach job at Williams last summer after Assistant positions at Cornell and Army (under Spiker). His first season went okay, going 15-10 overall and 5-5 and in conference. It's probably a little early, but if Courtney gets fired after next season and App has a good season at Williams, I could see him as a solid choice.

Willy '06
I wonder if Kevin App might make sense down the road? He's a former CU basketball captain ('07), and he just landed the Head Coach job at Williams last summer after Assistant positions at Cornell and Army (under Spiker). His first season went okay, going 15-10 overall and 5-5 and in conference. It's probably a little early, but if Courtney gets fired after next season and App has a good season at Williams, I could see him as a solid choice.

I have no idea of anything that happened this season at Williams (they may have had a ton of injuries), but Williams has lately been a D3 power and their pre-season rank was #5. So, 15-10 isn't that hot (again, there may be a very good reason). Kevin may be a great choice one day, but he's probably a few seasons from being ready.

[www.californiagoldenblogs.com]

[mobile.twitter.com]

Miller getting heavily recruited by Mich St, UConn, Marquette, Cal, BC, Mich, Illinois, just to name a few of 30 schools. Good for him, hope he lands on a NCAA tournament team next year. Has to be the dumbest Ivy league rule that grad students cannot play sports, its anti academics if anything

[www.leftydriesell.com]

He also was nominated for national defensive player of the year

CAS
Should we just accept/expect losing in basketball? Why field a team then?

Two thoughts:

1.) Why not accept/expect losing in basketball? We do in football.

2.) If we DIDN'T field BOTH basketball and football, could we pour the savings into hockey and lacrosse?
Ok, maybe a few shekels for wrestling. But only a few.

TimV

CAS
Should we just accept/expect losing in basketball? Why field a team then?

Two thoughts:

1.) Why not accept/expect losing in basketball? We do in football.

2.) If we DIDN'T field BOTH basketball and football, could we pour the savings into hockey and lacrosse?
Ok, maybe a few shekels for wrestling. But only a few.

I suspect the Ivies make you compete in hoops and football as a condition of membership. Clearly this is not true of all sports.

Trotsky

TimV

CAS
Should we just accept/expect losing in basketball? Why field a team then?

Two thoughts:

1.) Why not accept/expect losing in basketball? We do in football.

2.) If we DIDN'T field BOTH basketball and football, could we pour the savings into hockey and lacrosse?
Ok, maybe a few shekels for wrestling. But only a few.

I suspect the Ivies make you compete in hoops and football as a condition of membership. Clearly this is not true of all sports.

Participate, maybe. We haven't competed in football in a while.

Jeff Hopkins '82

Trotsky

TimV

CAS
Should we just accept/expect losing in basketball? Why field a team then?

Two thoughts:

1.) Why not accept/expect losing in basketball? We do in football.

2.) If we DIDN'T field BOTH basketball and football, could we pour the savings into hockey and lacrosse?
Ok, maybe a few shekels for wrestling. But only a few.

I suspect the Ivies make you compete in hoops and football as a condition of membership. Clearly this is not true of all sports.

Participate, maybe. We haven't competed in football in a while.

Tss.

Jeff Hopkins '82

Trotsky

TimV

CAS
Should we just accept/expect losing in basketball? Why field a team then?

Two thoughts:

1.) Why not accept/expect losing in basketball? We do in football.

2.) If we DIDN'T field BOTH basketball and football, could we pour the savings into hockey and lacrosse?
Ok, maybe a few shekels for wrestling. But only a few.

I suspect the Ivies make you compete in hoops and football as a condition of membership. Clearly this is not true of all sports.

Participate, maybe. We haven't competed in football in a while.

So when do we start competing in hockey?

Nice uniforms. But the numbers should be darker for contrast- won't show up well for TV.

phillysportsfan
Miller getting heavily recruited by Mich St, UConn, Marquette, Cal, BC, Mich, Illinois, just to name a few of 30 schools. Good for him, hope he lands on a NCAA tournament team next year. Has to be the dumbest Ivy league rule that grad students cannot play sports, its anti academics if anything

He chose UConn: [www.courant.com]

If it were possible, Miller said, he would have stayed at Cornell.

"I don't know why that's the rule in the first place," he said. "but I had no control over that situation."

...

Miller, who is from Euclid, Ohio, will graduate from Cornell on May 24, and he plans to begin summer courses at UConn soon after that. He said he is not sure what he will study at UConn.

I haven't been able to find out what his Cornell major is. His bio on the CU Athletics site just says "He is enrolled in the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences."