Generic Off Season Thread

Swampy

Josh '99


Accessible? I guess, though not as much so as Albany; however, this to some extent disregards the fact that the ECAC is no longer, and in all likelihood never will again be, a Boston-centered league. Providence is at one end of the league's geographic footprint as much so as Lake Placid is, and for the schools with sizable student/townie fan bases, Lake Placid is comparably convenient (Capital District schools) or much more so (Cornell, North Country schools).

As for attractiveness, one thing the Lake Placid region certainly has going for it is natural beauty out the wazoo (albeit, in fairness, much of it snow-covered even into March), if that's a major concern.

I don't buy the accessibility/geography argument. According to Google Maps, these are the driving times from ECACHL locations to Lake Placid & Providence:

LP
Brown: 5:19; Clarkson: 2:32; Colgate: 3:41; Cornell: 4:52; Dartmouth: 3:22; Harvard: 5:26; Princeton: 5:45; Quinnepeac: 5:00; RPI: 2:27; St. L: 1:46; Union: 2:32; Yale: 5:06


Providence
Brown: 0; Clarkson: 6:39; Colgate: 4:53; Cornell: 5:47; Dartmouth: 3:04; Harvard: 1:10; Princeton: 4:30; Quinnepeac: 1:56; RPI: 2:59; St. L: 6:38; Union: 3:10; Yale: 1:48

So the average travel time to LP is 3:59 but to Providence it's only 3:32. At that's by car! The last I heard, Providence is served by Amtrak, Southwest, and Jet Blue. So I'd presume public transportation would be even more in Providence's favor.

Well, it's clearly much more convenient to Harvard's and Brown's 9 combined fans anyway.

Al DeFlorio

Josh '99
Accessible? I guess, though not as much so as Albany; however, this to some extent disregards the fact that the ECAC is no longer, and in all likelihood never will again be, a Boston-centered league. Providence is at one end of the league's geographic footprint as much so as Lake Placid is, and for the schools with sizable student/townie fan bases, Lake Placid is comparably convenient (Capital District schools) or much more so (Cornell, North Country schools).

As for attractiveness, one thing the Lake Placid region certainly has going for it is natural beauty out the wazoo (albeit, in fairness, much of it snow-covered even into March), if that's a major concern.

Well, there are trains--with frequent service--and interstate highways that go right into downtown Providence from all major northeast cities, where many alumni live (How many Clarkson alums live in Potsdam?) Albany is also much more accessible than LP, but, in my opinion (sorry, Tim) is not as attractive a city as Providence. As far as attractiveness goes, what else is there to do in LP other than a bogus bobsled ride? A ski jump? [I'll go if Adam promises to jump for us.]

I would be very happy to have seen the ECACs return to Albany, but if the brilliant ADs who chose Atlantic City over Albany felt a continuing need for an alternative to Albany, Providence would be a much more desirable location than LP.

OK, so clearly you don't like the wintry options in Lake Placid; what is there to do in Providence? I've never felt much of a desire to do anything after a game at Meehan except skip town, but maybe I'm missing out.

Josh '99

Al DeFlorio

Josh '99
Accessible? I guess, though not as much so as Albany; however, this to some extent disregards the fact that the ECAC is no longer, and in all likelihood never will again be, a Boston-centered league. Providence is at one end of the league's geographic footprint as much so as Lake Placid is, and for the schools with sizable student/townie fan bases, Lake Placid is comparably convenient (Capital District schools) or much more so (Cornell, North Country schools).

As for attractiveness, one thing the Lake Placid region certainly has going for it is natural beauty out the wazoo (albeit, in fairness, much of it snow-covered even into March), if that's a major concern.

Well, there are trains--with frequent service--and interstate highways that go right into downtown Providence from all major northeast cities, where many alumni live (How many Clarkson alums live in Potsdam?) Albany is also much more accessible than LP, but, in my opinion (sorry, Tim) is not as attractive a city as Providence. As far as attractiveness goes, what else is there to do in LP other than a bogus bobsled ride? A ski jump? [I'll go if Adam promises to jump for us.]

I would be very happy to have seen the ECACs return to Albany, but if the brilliant ADs who chose Atlantic City over Albany felt a continuing need for an alternative to Albany, Providence would be a much more desirable location than LP.

OK, so clearly you don't like the wintry options in Lake Placid; what is there to do in Providence? I've never felt much of a desire to do anything after a game at Meehan except skip town, but maybe I'm missing out.

You can spend the day in Boston. Beats LP any day.

Jim Hyla
You can spend the day in Boston. Beats LP any day.

Like I've said, clearly in the eye of the beholder. I mean, talking about finding parking ... yikes

Hey, I love Boston - but driving an hour back and forth from Providence to Boston ... vs. taking a stroll down Main Street in LP ... I'll take the latter.

adamw

Jim Hyla
You can spend the day in Boston. Beats LP any day.

Like I've said, clearly in the eye of the beholder. I mean, talking about finding parking ... yikes

Hey, I love Boston - but driving an hour back and forth from Providence to Boston ... vs. taking a stroll down Main Street in LP ... I'll take the latter.

I know this comes as quite a shock, but I'm with Jim & Al on this one...

This discussion is shaping up as a generational divide. It's not unlike the ones I have with my son... I keep reminding him: "remember, you're heading where I am, I'm not headed where you are." So, let's just respect the fact that, even though we're all college hockey fans, we have differences in exactly how we enjoy that sport. It's not difficult to understand that 20-30 year olds enjoy different after-hour activities than 60-70 year olds, is it?

adamw

Jim Hyla
You can spend the day in Boston. Beats LP any day.

Like I've said, clearly in the eye of the beholder. I mean, talking about finding parking ... yikes

Hey, I love Boston - but driving an hour back and forth from Providence to Boston ... vs. taking a stroll down Main Street in LP ... I'll take the latter.

And that's about all you can do on Main Street in LP: stroll.

redice

adamw

Jim Hyla
You can spend the day in Boston. Beats LP any day.

Like I've said, clearly in the eye of the beholder. I mean, talking about finding parking ... yikes

Hey, I love Boston - but driving an hour back and forth from Providence to Boston ... vs. taking a stroll down Main Street in LP ... I'll take the latter.

I know this comes as quite a shock, but I'm with Jim & Al on this one...

This discussion is shaping up as a generational divide. It's not unlike the ones I have with my son... I keep reminding him: "remember, you're heading where I am, I'm not headed where you are." So, let's just respect the fact that, even though we're all college hockey fans, we have differences in exactly how we enjoy that sport. It's not difficult to understand that 20-30 year olds enjoy different after-hour activities than 60-70 year olds, is it?

The interesting, or perhaps ironic, thing about the generational divide is that opinions on either side of the divide are the opposite of what many predicted they would be when Lake Placid as host was more a musing than a reality. Most thought the younger fanbase and alumni would not be lured or attracted to the aura of Lake Placid because we were not alive during the 1980 Lake Placid games, but the elder generation would be. The opposite has played out on here.

Josh '99

Al DeFlorio

Josh '99
Accessible? I guess, though not as much so as Albany; however, this to some extent disregards the fact that the ECAC is no longer, and in all likelihood never will again be, a Boston-centered league. Providence is at one end of the league's geographic footprint as much so as Lake Placid is, and for the schools with sizable student/townie fan bases, Lake Placid is comparably convenient (Capital District schools) or much more so (Cornell, North Country schools).

As for attractiveness, one thing the Lake Placid region certainly has going for it is natural beauty out the wazoo (albeit, in fairness, much of it snow-covered even into March), if that's a major concern.

Well, there are trains--with frequent service--and interstate highways that go right into downtown Providence from all major northeast cities, where many alumni live (How many Clarkson alums live in Potsdam?) Albany is also much more accessible than LP, but, in my opinion (sorry, Tim) is not as attractive a city as Providence. As far as attractiveness goes, what else is there to do in LP other than a bogus bobsled ride? A ski jump? [I'll go if Adam promises to jump for us.]

I would be very happy to have seen the ECACs return to Albany, but if the brilliant ADs who chose Atlantic City over Albany felt a continuing need for an alternative to Albany, Providence would be a much more desirable location than LP.

OK, so clearly you don't like the wintry options in Lake Placid; what is there to do in Providence? I've never felt much of a desire to do anything after a game at Meehan except skip town, but maybe I'm missing out.

Yeah, the whole "what are we going to do there?" complaint can be used by somebody for just about any host. I know I heard it upon moving to Albany: ("So I guess just spend the day at Crossgates? Great." ) and Atlantic City ("Unless you gamble, there's nothing to do there in March" ). Personally, growing up in a town about 1/3 the size of Ithaca, I've never had the "Whatever shall we do to pass the time??" complaint. Almost every place has some interesting nook to discover or Kuraltian local exploration/conversation to undertake. Or you can make your own fun, given the right companions and/or creative inspiration. Or go see a movie or find a cafe to read and watch life.

As far as Providence goes, I've had a chance to spend some time in the downtown area, and there are a lot of cool things there, compared to the hill on which Brown sits.

Josh '99

Al DeFlorio

Josh '99
Accessible? I guess, though not as much so as Albany; however, this to some extent disregards the fact that the ECAC is no longer, and in all likelihood never will again be, a Boston-centered league. Providence is at one end of the league's geographic footprint as much so as Lake Placid is, and for the schools with sizable student/townie fan bases, Lake Placid is comparably convenient (Capital District schools) or much more so (Cornell, North Country schools).

As for attractiveness, one thing the Lake Placid region certainly has going for it is natural beauty out the wazoo (albeit, in fairness, much of it snow-covered even into March), if that's a major concern.

Well, there are trains--with frequent service--and interstate highways that go right into downtown Providence from all major northeast cities, where many alumni live (How many Clarkson alums live in Potsdam?) Albany is also much more accessible than LP, but, in my opinion (sorry, Tim) is not as attractive a city as Providence. As far as attractiveness goes, what else is there to do in LP other than a bogus bobsled ride? A ski jump? [I'll go if Adam promises to jump for us.]

I would be very happy to have seen the ECACs return to Albany, but if the brilliant ADs who chose Atlantic City over Albany felt a continuing need for an alternative to Albany, Providence would be a much more desirable location than LP.

OK, so clearly you don't like the wintry options in Lake Placid; what is there to do in Providence? I've never felt much of a desire to do anything after a game at Meehan except skip town, but maybe I'm missing out.

I have no idea whatsoever what you like or dislike to do, and you probably aren't going to find much in the way of culture in Providence AFTER a 7pm game at Brown. For one thing, that afternoon you might try the Rhode Island School of Design Art Museum (#1 in this article:

[travel.nytimes.com] )

TimV and I can vouch for the gustatory quality of #6, by the way.

RichH
Personally, growing up in a town about 1/3 the size of Ithaca, I've never had an issue with the "Whatever shall we do to pass the time??" complaint.

That's overly generous.

Aaron M. Griffin

redice

adamw

Jim Hyla
You can spend the day in Boston. Beats LP any day.

Like I've said, clearly in the eye of the beholder. I mean, talking about finding parking ... yikes

Hey, I love Boston - but driving an hour back and forth from Providence to Boston ... vs. taking a stroll down Main Street in LP ... I'll take the latter.

I know this comes as quite a shock, but I'm with Jim & Al on this one...

This discussion is shaping up as a generational divide. It's not unlike the ones I have with my son... I keep reminding him: "remember, you're heading where I am, I'm not headed where you are." So, let's just respect the fact that, even though we're all college hockey fans, we have differences in exactly how we enjoy that sport. It's not difficult to understand that 20-30 year olds enjoy different after-hour activities than 60-70 year olds, is it?

The interesting, or perhaps ironic, thing about the generational divide is that opinions on either side of the divide are the opposite of what many predicted they would be when Lake Placid as host was more a musing than a reality. Most thought the younger fanbase and alumni would not be lured or attracted to the aura of Lake Placid because we were not alive during the 1980 Lake Placid games, but the elder generation would be. The opposite has played out on here.

Not necessarily correct. The first time was nice. The second time barely outweighed the inconvenience of getting there. Now no desire to do it a third time. Been there. Done that.

Jim Hyla

Josh '99

Al DeFlorio

Josh '99
Accessible? I guess, though not as much so as Albany; however, this to some extent disregards the fact that the ECAC is no longer, and in all likelihood never will again be, a Boston-centered league. Providence is at one end of the league's geographic footprint as much so as Lake Placid is, and for the schools with sizable student/townie fan bases, Lake Placid is comparably convenient (Capital District schools) or much more so (Cornell, North Country schools).

As for attractiveness, one thing the Lake Placid region certainly has going for it is natural beauty out the wazoo (albeit, in fairness, much of it snow-covered even into March), if that's a major concern.

Well, there are trains--with frequent service--and interstate highways that go right into downtown Providence from all major northeast cities, where many alumni live (How many Clarkson alums live in Potsdam?) Albany is also much more accessible than LP, but, in my opinion (sorry, Tim) is not as attractive a city as Providence. As far as attractiveness goes, what else is there to do in LP other than a bogus bobsled ride? A ski jump? [I'll go if Adam promises to jump for us.]

I would be very happy to have seen the ECACs return to Albany, but if the brilliant ADs who chose Atlantic City over Albany felt a continuing need for an alternative to Albany, Providence would be a much more desirable location than LP.

OK, so clearly you don't like the wintry options in Lake Placid; what is there to do in Providence? I've never felt much of a desire to do anything after a game at Meehan except skip town, but maybe I'm missing out.

You can spend the day in Boston. Beats LP any day.

Eh. A) Though this isn't the case for everybody, I already live in a large city, so that doesn't hold a lot of appeal to me. If I want to spend a day in a large city, I can stay home. That's the case for a lot of alumni who, as Al points out, mainly live in and around the large cities in the Northeast.
B) As Adam pointed out, parking in Boston can be expensive and/or hard to find, making a short trip not worthwhile.
C) There's only so much you can do in Boston if you need to be back in Providence for a hockey game at 4pm.
D) The point here was that Providence is an attractive city; if it's best selling point is "an hour away from somewhere interesting," I don't know that it says much about Providence itself.

My 2 cents: I'm going for the hockey. if Cornell is in the tourney, I'm going, whether it's Providence, Albany, Boston or Placid. That said, once I'm there, which one will give me the most to do during the daylight hours when there is no hockey?

Not Albany. Maybe Providence for a year or two, until I've seen whatever there is to see in Providence. Hell, activities around AC weren't bad, even though I don't drink or gamble. But AC itself is such a shit hole. And even when the tournament was in Boston, we didn't do much to take advantage of Boston during the day - we just hung out waiting for the hockey to start, because we'd all been to Boston lots of times in our life. But the outdoor activities in LP keep giving until I can no longer get myself out the front door.

It's no question for me.

Jeff Hopkins '82
But the outdoor activities in LP keep giving until I can no longer get myself out the front door.

Jeff, I'm glad to hear you take advantage of the outdoor activities in LP. I'm interested in which ones you do? Ski jumping with Adam? Speed-skating on your skates with two-foot long blades on the LP oval? Luge (single or two-man)? Bobsledding (two-man or four-man)? Snowboarding? Skiing? I keep hearing how wonderful all these winter activities are, but I'm curious as to which ones people here really do when they go to LP.

Al DeFlorio

Josh '99

Al DeFlorio

Josh '99
Accessible? I guess, though not as much so as Albany; however, this to some extent disregards the fact that the ECAC is no longer, and in all likelihood never will again be, a Boston-centered league. Providence is at one end of the league's geographic footprint as much so as Lake Placid is, and for the schools with sizable student/townie fan bases, Lake Placid is comparably convenient (Capital District schools) or much more so (Cornell, North Country schools).

As for attractiveness, one thing the Lake Placid region certainly has going for it is natural beauty out the wazoo (albeit, in fairness, much of it snow-covered even into March), if that's a major concern.

Well, there are trains--with frequent service--and interstate highways that go right into downtown Providence from all major northeast cities, where many alumni live (How many Clarkson alums live in Potsdam?) Albany is also much more accessible than LP, but, in my opinion (sorry, Tim) is not as attractive a city as Providence. As far as attractiveness goes, what else is there to do in LP other than a bogus bobsled ride? A ski jump? [I'll go if Adam promises to jump for us.]

I would be very happy to have seen the ECACs return to Albany, but if the brilliant ADs who chose Atlantic City over Albany felt a continuing need for an alternative to Albany, Providence would be a much more desirable location than LP.

OK, so clearly you don't like the wintry options in Lake Placid; what is there to do in Providence? I've never felt much of a desire to do anything after a game at Meehan except skip town, but maybe I'm missing out.

I have no idea whatsoever what you like or dislike to do, and you probably aren't going to find much in the way of culture in Providence AFTER a 7pm game at Brown. For one thing, that afternoon you might try the Rhode Island School of Design Art Museum (#1 in this article:

[travel.nytimes.com] )

TimV and I can vouch for the gustatory quality of #6, by the way.

The same series of travel articles would seem to suggest that there are things to do in Lake Placid as well:

[travel.nytimes.com]

I think what these two links illustrate is that, as RichH mentioned upthread, if you're with people whose company you enjoy and you put your mind to it, there are fun things to do wherever you go. For a while you've been saying "there's nothing to do in Lake Placid" when what you really should be saying is "I don't enjoy the things there are to do in Lake Placid". That's unfortunate, and nobody can tell you you'll enjoy yourself next time if you haven't in the past, but I don't think "there's nothing to do in Lake Placid" is nearly as universal a fact as you assert it to be. (In fairness, the annoying hotel policies and potentially unsafe roads are equaly problematic to all.)

Al DeFlorio

Josh '99

Al DeFlorio

Josh '99
Accessible? I guess, though not as much so as Albany; however, this to some extent disregards the fact that the ECAC is no longer, and in all likelihood never will again be, a Boston-centered league. Providence is at one end of the league's geographic footprint as much so as Lake Placid is, and for the schools with sizable student/townie fan bases, Lake Placid is comparably convenient (Capital District schools) or much more so (Cornell, North Country schools).

As for attractiveness, one thing the Lake Placid region certainly has going for it is natural beauty out the wazoo (albeit, in fairness, much of it snow-covered even into March), if that's a major concern.

Well, there are trains--with frequent service--and interstate highways that go right into downtown Providence from all major northeast cities, where many alumni live (How many Clarkson alums live in Potsdam?) Albany is also much more accessible than LP, but, in my opinion (sorry, Tim) is not as attractive a city as Providence. As far as attractiveness goes, what else is there to do in LP other than a bogus bobsled ride? A ski jump? [I'll go if Adam promises to jump for us.]

I would be very happy to have seen the ECACs return to Albany, but if the brilliant ADs who chose Atlantic City over Albany felt a continuing need for an alternative to Albany, Providence would be a much more desirable location than LP.

OK, so clearly you don't like the wintry options in Lake Placid; what is there to do in Providence? I've never felt much of a desire to do anything after a game at Meehan except skip town, but maybe I'm missing out.

I have no idea whatsoever what you like or dislike to do, and you probably aren't going to find much in the way of culture in Providence AFTER a 7pm game at Brown. For one thing, that afternoon you might try the Rhode Island School of Design Art Museum (#1 in this article:

[travel.nytimes.com] )

TimV and I can vouch for the gustatory quality of #6, by the way.

A big part of the question concerns March weather. LP is clearly better for outdoor winter sports. If it's a cold March, Lake Placid has a real advantage, at least for outdoor types. If March is mild, and that seems to be the trend (Al Gore smiley), Providence wins. Either way, Providence is likely to put on a WaterFire for the ECAC's, and there's lots to do in nearby Newport.

I don't see how this is a generational divide. What, are we suggesting that the young'ns are headed to Lake Placid for all that stellar nightlife??? On the contrary, I would think that, stereotypically, the older folk would enjoy the quaint charm of LP more. But let's forget all of the stereotyping. Once again, as Josh points out and I have too...it's all on what you enjoy. To say there's nothing to do in LP is simply a non-serious comment. It's all a matter of taste. There is plenty to do for those who enjoy those things. Plenty of outdoor stuff, or shops, or museums, or just enjoying the scenery. Or you can just enjoy hanging and schmoozing with the people you go with and sharing stories of hockey lore for the umpteenth time with an Adirondack backdrop. Whatever. To each their own.

There are also revolutionary things called "books."

Swampy
A big part of the question concerns March weather. LP is clearly better for outdoor winter sports. If it's a cold March, Lake Placid has a real advantage, at least for outdoor types. If March is mild, and that seems to be the trend (Al Gore smiley), Providence wins. Either way, Providence is likely to put on a WaterFire for the ECAC's, and there's lots to do in nearby Newport.

Last year, in one of the worst winters we've had recently, Whiteface closed on March 25th, so I expect them to be open, if marginally, every mid-March and some years for the skiing to be great. They normally stay open until mid-April.

Josh '99
I think what these two links illustrate is that, as RichH mentioned upthread, if you're with people whose company you enjoy and you put your mind to it, there are fun things to do wherever you go. For a while you've been saying "there's nothing to do in Lake Placid" when what you really should be saying is "I don't enjoy the things there are to do in Lake Placid". That's unfortunate, and nobody can tell you you'll enjoy yourself next time if you haven't in the past, but I don't think "there's nothing to do in Lake Placid" is nearly as universal a fact as you assert it to be. (In fairness, the annoying hotel policies and potentially unsafe roads are equaly problematic to all.)

Honestly, one of the things I always enjoyed when we went to Lake Placid for the ECAC tournament was the VFW's pancake breakfast fundraiser on Saturday morning. Friendly small-town people, fresh local real maple syrup, and basically an all-you-can-eat breakfast for $5. Can't go wrong there.

Al DeFlorio

Jeff Hopkins '82
But the outdoor activities in LP keep giving until I can no longer get myself out the front door.

Jeff, I'm glad to hear you take advantage of the outdoor activities in LP. I'm interested in which ones you do? Ski jumping with Adam? Speed-skating on your skates with two-foot long blades on the LP oval? Luge (single or two-man)? Bobsledding (two-man or four-man)? Snowboarding? Skiing? I keep hearing how wonderful all these winter activities are, but I'm curious as to which ones people here really do when they go to LP.

I'm no expert, but I think there may be some sarcasm in this post.

French Rage

Al DeFlorio

Jeff Hopkins '82
But the outdoor activities in LP keep giving until I can no longer get myself out the front door.

Jeff, I'm glad to hear you take advantage of the outdoor activities in LP. I'm interested in which ones you do? Ski jumping with Adam? Speed-skating on your skates with two-foot long blades on the LP oval? Luge (single or two-man)? Bobsledding (two-man or four-man)? Snowboarding? Skiing? I keep hearing how wonderful all these winter activities are, but I'm curious as to which ones people here really do when they go to LP.

I'm no expert, but I think there may be some sarcasm in this post.

Well, for the record, I have gone down the bobsled run (five man for what it's worth), but as Al hints, I'm long past my adrenalin junkie days. Hell, it's been 17 years since my last bungee jump.

For me the outdoor activity is birdwatching and just being out in nature. Lake Placid is firmly in the boreal zone, so the species there are less likely to be found where most of us live. When the tournament was in LP before, I always took advantage of that opportunity to do a long birding session Saturday morning.

And for the record, Al, my post wasn't intended to try to sell you or anyone else on LP. I was just expressing my feelings.

Trotsky
There are also revolutionary things called "books."

Yeah, like you have to be in LP to that? It's a real reason to go there.

Jim Hyla

Trotsky
There are also revolutionary things called "books."

Yeah, like you have to be in LP to that? It's a real reason to go there.

*throws up hands*

This is turning into a circular argument, (or an Abbott & Costello routine) at this point.

Lou: Why do we have to go to Lake Placid?
Bud: That's where the hockey tournament is.
Lou: Well, what am I going to do there between games to prevent myself from dying of boredom?
Bud: Lots of outdoor activities
Lou: Well, I don't like doing those.
Bud: You could read?
Lou: Psshhh. I could do that anywhere. Why do we have to go there to read?
Bud: We're not going there to read. We're going there because of the hockey tournament.
Lou: But what will I DO between games???

Disclaimer: I have an excessive amount of patience for a lot of things. People who get bored when they travel is not one of them. YMMV. An anecdote I use involves some NYC guys from my freshman dorm floor. They complained endlessly about how there was "nothing to do" in podunk, little Ithaca, and that they all should have just gone to Columbia. I tried to suggest restaurants, movies, & nightlife spots, and just got eyerolls. After college, I visited a couple of them in NYC, and what did we do? Got dinner, saw a movie, and went to a bar. My point isn't to say NYC (or other exciting destination) isn't anything special. Just that what people find they do most often in their day-to-day leisure time isn't that much different from place to place.

RichH
Disclaimer: I have an excessive amount of patience for a lot of things. People who get bored when they travel is not one of them. YMMV. An anecdote I use involves some NYC guys from my freshman dorm floor. They complained endlessly about how there was "nothing to do" in podunk, little Ithaca, and that they all should have just gone to Columbia. I tried to suggest restaurants, movies, & nightlife spots, and just got eyerolls. After college, I visited a couple of them in NYC, and what did we do? Got dinner, saw a movie, and went to a bar. My point isn't to say NYC (or other exciting destination) isn't anything special. Just that what people find they do most often in their day-to-day leisure time isn't that much different from place to place.

Well, sure, but at least in NYC your evening out was significantly more expensive.

Rich, your Abbott and Costello routine is a good send-up, but Lou's second question should be: Why does it have to be in such an out-of-the-way place? That's the crux of the issue.

I'm one of the younger ones, Class of '09, and I'm not thrilled with the LP choice. I would much rather Providence. Currently I live in Boston, but I'll be in DC starting April 2013, so getting to LP will be a pain. Providence, as many have stated, has an abundance of transit options. As for during the day - same thing we did in Detroit, find a restaurant for a late brunch, then beer pong in the room before the early game. It's the people that really matter for not being bored. and I agree with Al's statement:

Al DeFlorio
Rich, your Abbott and Costello routine is a good send-up, but Lou's second question should be: Why does it have to be in such an out-of-the-way place? That's the crux of the issue.

Al DeFlorio
Rich, your Abbott and Costello routine is a good send-up, but Lou's second question should be: Why does it have to be in such an out-of-the-way place? That's the crux of the issue.

Because it's a great place that's worth it. Again, your mileage may vary.

Oh and just for total disclosure, between the time I go birdwatching and the start of the early game on Saturday, I either watch the NCAA basketball tournament or curling on Canadian TV (or take a nap).

Al DeFlorio
Rich, your Abbott and Costello routine is a good send-up, but Lou's second question should be: Why does it have to be in such an out-of-the-way place? That's the crux of the issue.

They tried having in a relatively easy to get to place: Atlantic City. Most people hated it (for the record, I didn't think it was as bad as everyone made it out to be). I've come to the conclusion that no matter where the tournament is, a sizable amount of people will be unhappy. Every location is out of the way for someone and one person's fun activity bores someone else.

RichH
Disclaimer: I have an excessive amount of patience for a lot of things. People who get bored when they travel is not one of them. YMMV. An anecdote I use involves some NYC guys from my freshman dorm floor. They complained endlessly about how there was "nothing to do" in podunk, little Ithaca, and that they all should have just gone to Columbia. I tried to suggest restaurants, movies, & nightlife spots, and just got eyerolls. After college, I visited a couple of them in NYC, and what did we do? Got dinner, saw a movie, and went to a bar. My point isn't to say NYC (or other exciting destination) isn't anything special. Just that what people find they do most often in their day-to-day leisure time isn't that much different from place to place.

So what you're saying is, whether it's Lake Placid, Albany, Atlantic City, Providence, Boston, or anywhere else, we're just going to go drink?

I can live with that.

Al DeFlorio
Rich, your Abbott and Costello routine is a good send-up, but Lou's second question should be: Why does it have to be in such an out-of-the-way place? That's the crux of the issue.

I was attempting to dismiss the "there's nothing to do" complaint, which I don't think is a valid one. The remoteness/accessibility concern is a different point altogether, and has more merit for discussion.

adamw

Al DeFlorio
Rich, your Abbott and Costello routine is a good send-up, but Lou's second question should be: Why does it have to be in such an out-of-the-way place? That's the crux of the issue.

Because it's a great place that's worth it. Again, your mileage may vary.

Come on Adam, that's the best you can do?

And Adam, I'm still waiting to hear about any change in hotel policies. Any news?

Rich, you missed, or purposely turned around my point. You can read everywhere, so that's not a reason to hold it in LP, end of point.
edit: I had typed this before your recent post, but didn't post it quickly, so I retract my "purposely" point.

Personally, I'd like to have tried Providence, and see how many fans we might get. I think there might be a few from Boston that would have come down. We draw well in Allston, so who knows? But from the article in the Providence Journal it doesn't look like that was ever possible.

The ECAC was looking for a monetary guarantee that Providence was unwilling to offer, said Jim Bennett, the director of economic development for the City of Providence and the chairman of the board of the Rhode Island Convention Center Authority, which oversees the Dunk.

So money was a factor. Not surprising, but not the only factor, as Ken Schott reports that Albany had the best package. Too bad they didn't have that 3 years ago, as it was said that money was a reason for jumping to AC.

Jim Hyla
Come on Adam, that's the best you can do?

C'mon Jim ... you've been reading this thread all along, and read my stuff, you know everything I think. I expect more from you than someone like, oh, say, Al. You know full well I was giving Al the short answer. Clearly, as we've been saying, if you feel like being miserable about Lake Placid, to each their own. Some people love it and find plenty to do. Otherwise, at this point, making remarks like that is just trolling.

re: hotels ... whatever I know was in the recent articles.

Jim Hyla

adamw

Al DeFlorio
Rich, your Abbott and Costello routine is a good send-up, but Lou's second question should be: Why does it have to be in such an out-of-the-way place? That's the crux of the issue.

Because it's a great place that's worth it. Again, your mileage may vary.

Come on Adam, that's the best you can do?

Why does he have to do better, three pages into this discussion? It's fine that people disagree about this. I find the entire argument TODAY ridiculous because the decision has already been made. Stop grousing and read a Rough Guide book if you think you'll be bored during the day. If you aren't going to go at all because it is too far away - like me - stop making it about your* own inability to entertain yourself while waiting for the game.

* I don't mean you specifically, Jim, this just happens to be the post where I've finally had enough of the back-and-forth without any value added. "YMMV" is a perfect way to sum up the argument and would have been a good button on the whole thing.

According to USCHO, the Div. III championships in 2014 will be in Philly on Friday of the Div I championships. And to get another dig in, here's what they say about LP:

It would be a big change for the D-III tournament, which, until 2008, had been almost exclusively played on campus sites. Lake Placid, N.Y., was the site of the semifinals and finals in four of the last five seasons and is scheduled to host again in 2013.

Read more: [www.uscho.com]

Jim Hyla
According to USCHO, the Div. III championships in 2014 will be in Philly on Friday of the Div I championships. And to get another dig in, here's what they say about LP:

It would be a big change for the D-III tournament, which, until 2008, had been almost exclusively played on campus sites. Lake Placid, N.Y., was the site of the semifinals and finals in four of the last five seasons and is scheduled to host again in 2013.

Read more: [www.uscho.com]

Love it! I don't know that I'll actually GO to the DIII title game, but it'll be great to have the option.

Guess Bennett changed his mind about celebrating only academic accolades "@unionhockey: New mural in men's locker room twitter.com/UnionHockey/st…"

— WAFT Blog (@CornellWAFT) August 22, 2012

Thoughts?

bnr24

Guess Bennett changed his mind about celebrating only academic accolades "@unionhockey: New mural in men's locker room twitter.com/UnionHockey/st…"

— WAFT Blog (@CornellWAFT) August 22, 2012

Thoughts?

It's actually a pretty nice mural. And good for them. They made the Frozen Four. They have the right to (and should) commemerate it in as many ways as possible.

jtn27

bnr24

Guess Bennett changed his mind about celebrating only academic accolades "@unionhockey: New mural in men's locker room twitter.com/UnionHockey/st…"

— WAFT Blog (@CornellWAFT) August 22, 2012

Thoughts?

It's actually a pretty nice mural. And good for them. They made the Frozen Four. They have the right to (and should) commemerate it in as many ways as possible.

Yeah. Why would this raise anybody's hackles? It's one thing when their uh...fans(?) act like entitled pricks, but that's the hockey locker room. Their players accomplished a lot of things that their program can (and should) be proud of, finally. Why not commemorate them?

RichH

jtn27

bnr24

Guess Bennett changed his mind about celebrating only academic accolades "@unionhockey: New mural in men's locker room twitter.com/UnionHockey/st…"

— WAFT Blog (@CornellWAFT) August 22, 2012

Thoughts?

It's actually a pretty nice mural. And good for them. They made the Frozen Four. They have the right to (and should) commemerate it in as many ways as possible.

Yeah. Why would this raise anybody's hackles? It's one thing when their uh...fans(?) act like entitled pricks, but that's the hockey locker room. Their players accomplished a lot of things that their program can (and should) be proud of, finally. Why not commemorate them?

I don't know, my issue with them had to do with the fact that they made a big to-do about not celebrating athletics in the locker room. I don't want to take away from their accomplishments (seriously, props to the Frozen Four), but I respected them more for their stance before. Idk, guess it is easy to say before you win anything significant.

RichH

jtn27

bnr24

Guess Bennett changed his mind about celebrating only academic accolades "@unionhockey: New mural in men's locker room twitter.com/UnionHockey/st…"

— WAFT Blog (@CornellWAFT) August 22, 2012

Thoughts?

It's actually a pretty nice mural. And good for them. They made the Frozen Four. They have the right to (and should) commemerate it in as many ways as possible.

Yeah. Why would this raise anybody's hackles? It's one thing when their uh...fans(?) act like entitled pricks, but that's the hockey locker room. Their players accomplished a lot of things that their program can (and should) be proud of, finally. Why not commemorate them?

I will even concede that with a more recent Frozen Four appearance, Union finally has something about which they can have an attitude toward Cornell. It is a real accomplishment of theirs. However, I do think there is an element of hypocrisy about the mural and comments that Bennett has made several times, including those made during the Jell-O Mold awarding ceremony in Schenectady last season, in the past.

The one reason that it might be appropriate to be critical of their choice is because of Bennett's incessancy about how while he is coach, Union College will never put anything celebrating anything other than academic achievements in the locker room. He pointed to how players post typically which players make the dean's list on the walls of the locker room. He followed these comments up on several occasions with not-so-veiled allusions to the well-known tradition of Schafer that has players polish trophies and place trophies in the locker rooms as being practices Bennett critiqued as emphasizing the wrong side of the sport and something that programs that deprioritize academics do.

The first time I heard the comment, I took it as a slight to Cornell. Then, when I thought about it, I decided that if Union stayed loyal to that tradition it would be one of which I was jealous. Certainly, it would remain a hallmark and a point of pride for a self-proclaimed proud liberal arts school. However, Bennett has proven to be a mere hypocrite on this issue when his program and he could have shown great character with choosing that they would continue on as they had before, when they had nothing to display or commemorate in their locker room. Perhaps I am too sensitive to hypocrisy, but hypocritical arrogance strikes me as something mock-worthy.

The incoming CU men's hockey freshmen and their new numbers ... Willcox (3), Stoick (8), Hilbrich (9), Knisley (12), Tiitinen (19).

— Brandon Thomas (@BThomasIthaca) August 24, 2012

Interesting that incoming defenseman Willcox has chosen to wear 3 like one other famous defenseman for the Big Red (Schafer).

— WAFT Blog (@CornellWAFT) August 24, 2012

I wonder if Willcox knows already the history of his chosen number. He has much to live up to now, I guess.

Matt Underhill is among the folks going into the CU Athletic Hall of Fame this year.

Weder
Matt Underhill is among the folks going into the CU Athletic Hall of Fame this year.

Good for him.

Taking a look at the other inductees - If I were more of a cynic I would say somehting like "I had no idea that philanthropy was an intercollegiate sport".

Swampy

Al DeFlorio

Josh '99

Al DeFlorio

Josh '99
Accessible? I guess, though not as much so as Albany; however, this to some extent disregards the fact that the ECAC is no longer, and in all likelihood never will again be, a Boston-centered league. Providence is at one end of the league's geographic footprint as much so as Lake Placid is, and for the schools with sizable student/townie fan bases, Lake Placid is comparably convenient (Capital District schools) or much more so (Cornell, North Country schools).

As for attractiveness, one thing the Lake Placid region certainly has going for it is natural beauty out the wazoo (albeit, in fairness, much of it snow-covered even into March), if that's a major concern.

Well, there are trains--with frequent service--and interstate highways that go right into downtown Providence from all major northeast cities, where many alumni live (How many Clarkson alums live in Potsdam?) Albany is also much more accessible than LP, but, in my opinion (sorry, Tim) is not as attractive a city as Providence. As far as attractiveness goes, what else is there to do in LP other than a bogus bobsled ride? A ski jump? [I'll go if Adam promises to jump for us.]

I would be very happy to have seen the ECACs return to Albany, but if the brilliant ADs who chose Atlantic City over Albany felt a continuing need for an alternative to Albany, Providence would be a much more desirable location than LP.

OK, so clearly you don't like the wintry options in Lake Placid; what is there to do in Providence? I've never felt much of a desire to do anything after a game at Meehan except skip town, but maybe I'm missing out.

I have no idea whatsoever what you like or dislike to do, and you probably aren't going to find much in the way of culture in Providence AFTER a 7pm game at Brown. For one thing, that afternoon you might try the Rhode Island School of Design Art Museum (#1 in this article:

[travel.nytimes.com] )

TimV and I can vouch for the gustatory quality of #6, by the way.

A big part of the question concerns March weather. LP is clearly better for outdoor winter sports. If it's a cold March, Lake Placid has a real advantage, at least for outdoor types. If March is mild, and that seems to be the trend (Al Gore smiley), Providence wins. Either way, Providence is likely to put on a WaterFire for the ECAC's, and there's lots to do in nearby Newport.

And if it is cold and icy then the mortician may win. My biggest problem with LP is the drive from I-87 to the town. I don't really enjoy it in the summer in daylight. Since I will be driving home after the games the weather may coax me into a ditch.

If the weather is terrible, I'll be hoping that RPI TV or Time Warner will be broadcasting the games.

Could someone more learned in NCAA rules explain what constitutes a coach-led practice and what constitutes a captain-led voluntary practice? Union and Quinnipiac both play games on the first day that the NCAA allows coach-led practices and then Appert tweeted this to make the distinction more convoluted in my mind.

First day-exciting to get back on ice with team and get down to work!A lot for us to prove but a strong summer to build on #engineerpride

— Seth Appert (@SethAppert) August 28, 2012

Aaron M. Griffin
Could someone more learned in NCAA rules explain what constitutes a coach-led practice and what constitutes a captain-led voluntary practice? Union and Quinnipiac both play games on the first day that the NCAA allows coach-led practices and then Appert tweeted this to make the distinction more convoluted in my mind.

Coaches are allowed to "attend" captain's practices for safety and observation purposes, but they are not allowed to "lead" the practices. Good luck splitting those hairs in your NCAA violation review....

Robb

Aaron M. Griffin
Could someone more learned in NCAA rules explain what constitutes a coach-led practice and what constitutes a captain-led voluntary practice? Union and Quinnipiac both play games on the first day that the NCAA allows coach-led practices and then Appert tweeted this to make the distinction more convoluted in my mind.

Coaches are allowed to "attend" captain's practices for safety and observation purposes, but they are not allowed to "lead" the practices. Good luck splitting those hairs in your NCAA violation review....

And everypne knows that captain's practices are "voluntary". As in, you can voluntarily choose to be kicked off the team.

Do the Ivies, ECAC and NCAA each have different dates on which captain and coach practices are permitted? (i.e., 6 different dates)

Trotsky
Do the Ivies, ECAC and NCAA each have different dates on which captain and coach practices are permitted? (i.e., 6 different dates)

Ivies and ECAC are all definitely different, so that's 4. I suspect that the ECAC dates match the NCAA dates, though, since 6 ECAC members start playing games in early October like the rest of the NCAA. The sport I played (fencing) was not in the ECAC, so we only dealt with Ivy and NCAA rules.

I never knew you could sword fight. I'm going to be a lot more polite in future.

Apologies if it was reported elsewhere: Hockey East to expand playoffs to include all teams starting in 2013-2014.

[www.collegehockeynews.com]

nyc94
Apologies if it was reported elsewhere: Hockey East to expand playoffs to include all teams starting in 2013-2014.

[www.collegehockeynews.com]

Once that's in effect, every single conference will allow all of their teams to make the conference playoff tournament.

Sorry, UAH.

RichH
Sorry, UAH.

UAH's home opponents this season:

Alabama
Mankato
US Under 18
Finlandia
Adrian

Sorry, UAH.

Trotsky

RichH
Sorry, UAH.

UAH's home opponents this season:

Alabama
Mankato
US Under 18
Finlandia
Adrian

Sorry, UAH.

Alabama? Like, University of?

Josh '99

Trotsky

RichH
Sorry, UAH.

UAH's home opponents this season:

Alabama
Mankato
US Under 18
Finlandia
Adrian

Sorry, UAH.

Alabama? Like, University of?

Roll Tide

Josh '99

Trotsky

RichH
Sorry, UAH.

UAH's home opponents this season:

Alabama
Mankato
US Under 18
Finlandia
Adrian

Sorry, UAH.

Alabama? Like, University of?

Yes. Alabama has an ACHA team. I am not sure which division it plays in. A significant number of Southern state schools do including the University of Oklahoma that has an ACHA Division I program that is quite competitive in that division. Most observers claim that the level of play at ACHA Division I is approximate among the best ACHA Division I teams to NCAA Division III. I watched almost all of Penn State's last season at the ACHA Division I level and I think that is a good approximation, but there's a lot less parity in ACHA Division I. The best programs are NCAA Division III-like and the worst can be quite bad,

Once upon a time, UAB joined UAH as a serviceable D-1 hockey program. I don't know why UAB dropped down so much earlier.

Note: this was also a time when Northern Arizona (Flagstaff) had a D-1 program. Times have changed.

ACHA Standings:

D-1

D-2

D-3

The Northern Virginia Community College Raiders has some issues in net.

This may be why. He has just become my favorite hockey player on Earth.

Edit: Link follow fail. The latter two lines are from the NVCC ROLLER hockey team, which is a juggernaut compared to the NVCC HOCKEY team.

RPI blog Without a Peer post about Cornell [www.withoutapeer.com].

I have no connection to WaP except as a reader.

Trotsky
Once upon a time, UAB joined UAH as a serviceable D-1 hockey program. I don't know why UAB dropped down so much earlier.

Note: this was also a time when Northern Arizona (Flagstaff) had a D-1 program. Times have changed.

I don't recall UAB playing D-I. I do remember Northern Arizona. Are you sure about UAB?

ursusminor
I don't recall UAB playing D-I. I do remember Northern Arizona. Are you sure about UAB?

I remember there were two Alabamas. I am pretty sure the other one was Birmingham, but I will check tonight. It may have been before there was a formal "D-1" (as in the days when USC and Lake Forest State had ostensible NCAA programs).

jtn27

Josh '99

Trotsky

RichH
Sorry, UAH.

UAH's home opponents this season:

Alabama
Mankato
US Under 18
Finlandia
Adrian

Sorry, UAH.

Alabama? Like, University of?

Roll Tide

The Frozen Tide is a great name.

Trotsky

ursusminor
I don't recall UAB playing D-I. I do remember Northern Arizona. Are you sure about UAB?

I remember there were two Alabamas. I am pretty sure the other one was Birmingham, but I will check tonight. It may have been before there was a formal "D-1" (as in the days when USC and Lake Forest State had ostensible NCAA programs).

Not in the memory-banks of the Historical Archives. That doesn't mean it's a complete list, of course.

[www.augenblick.org]

Trotsky

ursusminor
I don't recall UAB playing D-I. I do remember Northern Arizona. Are you sure about UAB?

I remember there were two Alabamas. I am pretty sure the other one was Birmingham, but I will check tonight. It may have been before there was a formal "D-1" (as in the days when USC and Lake Forest State had ostensible NCAA programs).

I guess that I didn't understand your previous comment. I thought that you said that it was the same time as Northern Arizona played D-I which was in the 1980s.

Trotsky

jtn27

Josh '99

Trotsky

RichH
Sorry, UAH.

UAH's home opponents this season:

Alabama
Mankato
US Under 18
Finlandia
Adrian

Sorry, UAH.

Alabama? Like, University of?

Roll Tide

The Frozen Tide is a great name.

How can a frozen tide roll?

Ronald '09

Trotsky

jtn27

Josh '99

Trotsky

RichH
Sorry, UAH.

UAH's home opponents this season:

Alabama
Mankato
US Under 18
Finlandia
Adrian

Sorry, UAH.

Alabama? Like, University of?

Roll Tide

The Frozen Tide is a great name.

How can a frozen tide roll?

It's more of a gradual creep over the course of 10,000 years.

Nope, I'm wrong, I am unable to find any UAB reference. The College Hockey Reference Manual lists the following teams as Independents in 1988-89:

Merrimack
Michigan-Dearborn
UAF
Lake Forest
UAH
UAA
Air Force
St. Cloud State
Notre Dame

I think I probably misremembered the three UAs as two Alabamas (I wasn't even aware the Alaska programs were D-1 at that time).

In other news, I'm old.

French Rage

Ronald '09

Trotsky

jtn27

Josh '99

Trotsky

RichH
Sorry, UAH.

UAH's home opponents this season:

Alabama
Mankato
US Under 18
Finlandia
Adrian

Sorry, UAH.

Alabama? Like, University of?

Roll Tide

The Frozen Tide is a great name.

How can a frozen tide roll?

It's more of a gradual creep over the course of 10,000 years.

Like Union's path to winning a playoff series.

Trotsky

RichH
Sorry, UAH.

UAH's home opponents this season:

Alabama
Mankato
US Under 18
Finlandia
Adrian

Sorry, UAH.

Yikes. They play 22 games against D-1 teams, including two against Penn State. That's just barely enough to be eligible for the NCAA.

Trotsky
Nope, I'm wrong, I am unable to find any UAB reference. The College Hockey Reference Manual lists the following teams as Independents in 1988-89:

Merrimack
Michigan-Dearborn
UAF
Lake Forest
UAH
UAA
Air Force
St. Cloud State
Notre Dame

I think I probably misremembered the three UAs as two Alabamas (I wasn't even aware the Alaska programs were D-1 at that time).

In other news, I'm old.

That's news?

Via Ken Schott, NCAA video on rules changes.

Jim Hyla
Via Ken Schott, NCAA video on rules changes.

The lead-in and music are hysterical. What if Herb Tarlick gave a presentation at the Orange County Realtors Convention?

Jim Hyla
Via Ken Schott, NCAA video on rules changes.

Didn't have time to watch the video yet, but I will guiltily miss the smug eye-rolling opportunity whenever some newbie screams "HAND PASS!" in the defensive zone.

[insidehockey.com]

RichH

Jim Hyla
Via Ken Schott, NCAA video on rules changes.

Didn't have time to watch the video yet, but I will guiltily miss the smug eye-rolling opportunity whenever some newbie screams "HAND PASS!" in the defensive zone.

[insidehockey.com]

I agree with the criticism of this change in the linked article.

KeithK

Robb

Aaron M. Griffin
Could someone more learned in NCAA rules explain what constitutes a coach-led practice and what constitutes a captain-led voluntary practice? Union and Quinnipiac both play games on the first day that the NCAA allows coach-led practices and then Appert tweeted this to make the distinction more convoluted in my mind.

Coaches are allowed to "attend" captain's practices for safety and observation purposes, but they are not allowed to "lead" the practices. Good luck splitting those hairs in your NCAA violation review....

And everypne knows that captain's practices are "voluntary". As in, you can voluntarily choose to be kicked off the team.

On the same topic, Ken Schott posted videos of Union hockey practice with this article from last week. In the Grosenick interview, Schott in his question and Grosenick in his answer imply that the practices that began are no longer captain-led practices when they highlight the differences in tone and conducting of each practice, but are coach-led. They note how different it is with the coaches there. Also, in the other video, one can clearly tell at the end that Bennett is leading the practice. I do not think that any reasonable person assumes that Union would be heading into a match-up with Merrimack on October 6, the first day on which official coach-led practices are allowed, without any formal coaching. But, October 6 is the first day on which coach-led practices are allowed under NCAA rules. Is Union engaging in an NCAA violation? Or, is this just a standard no one follows? I've always found this standard peculiar.

Aaron M. Griffin
On the same topic, Ken Schott posted videos of Union hockey practice with this article from last week. In the Grosenick interview, Schott in his question and Grosenick in his answer imply that the practices that began are no longer captain-led practices when they highlight the differences in tone and conducting of each practice, but are coach-led. They note how different it is with the coaches there. Also, in the other video, one can clearly tell at the end that Bennett is leading the practice. I do not think that any reasonable person assumes that Union would be heading into a match-up with Merrimack on October 6, the first day on which official coach-led practices are allowed, without any formal coaching. But, October 6 is the first day on which coach-led practices are allowed under NCAA rules. Is Union engaging in an NCAA violation? Or, is this just a standard no one follows? I've always found this standard peculiar.

Where did you see that October 6th is the first day that's allowed? That isn't correct. The first date was last week, thus Ken Schott's article and video.

Youth hockey still allows a hand pass in the defensive zone to my knowledge. I'm guessing that junior hockey still allows hand passes in the defensive zone as well. Strange decision regardless of your views on newbies.

adamw

Aaron M. Griffin
On the same topic, Ken Schott posted videos of Union hockey practice with this article from last week. In the Grosenick interview, Schott in his question and Grosenick in his answer imply that the practices that began are no longer captain-led practices when they highlight the differences in tone and conducting of each practice, but are coach-led. They note how different it is with the coaches there. Also, in the other video, one can clearly tell at the end that Bennett is leading the practice. I do not think that any reasonable person assumes that Union would be heading into a match-up with Merrimack on October 6, the first day on which official coach-led practices are allowed, without any formal coaching. But, October 6 is the first day on which coach-led practices are allowed under NCAA rules. Is Union engaging in an NCAA violation? Or, is this just a standard no one follows? I've always found this standard peculiar.

Where did you see that October 6th is the first day that's allowed? That isn't correct. The first date was last week, thus Ken Schott's article and video.

Is 10/6 the Ivy date, or 10/13?

adamw
Where did you see that October 6th is the first day that's allowed? That isn't correct. The first date was last week, thus Ken Schott's article and video.

NCAA Rules of Ice Hockey 17.12.2
Preseason Practice:
In men's ice hockey, an institution shall not commence practice sessions prior to the Saturday of the 25th full weekend prior to the start of the NCAA Division I Men's Ice Hockey Championship.

The 2013 NCAA Regionals in men's ice hockey are March 29-31. That would make October 6, 2012 the first date on which a formal, coached practice is allowed.

If you don't trust my math, Adam.

The Gazette
The first true practice won’t happen until Oct. 6 and the first exhibition game will be the next evening.

From: [www.gazette.com]

Gadowsky on September 11, 2012 cited that Penn State was "about a month away from [NCAA-allowed, coach-led] practice." From here at 1:00.

Wisconsin Badgers
The Badgers begin their final season as members of the WCHA with the first official practice on Saturday, Oct. 6.

From: [www.uwbadgers.com]

Another Wisconsin source:

Madtown Badgers
The first day of sanctioned practice is on October 6.

From: [www.madtownbadgers.com]

Well, if I am not correct, it seems that a lot of other people from different conferences, from different vantage points, and with different interests agree with me. The text of the NCAA Rules does as well. You like to write about NCAA violations, perhaps you should look into this.

I believe you, But there's a discrepancy, because I've talked to coaches this week that have been with players at practice, and there have been many other public statements from coaches about it. I'm sure they're not breaking rules. I believe they're allowed contact with them for a limited amount of time per day, and then the oct. 6 date would be another level of contact that's allowed.

adamw
I believe you, But there's a discrepancy, because I've talked to coaches this week that have been with players at practice, and there have been many other public statements from coaches about it. I'm sure they're not breaking rules. I believe they're allowed contact with them for a limited amount of time per day, and then the oct. 6 date would be another level of contact that's allowed.

Cheating? In sports? Never. I figured that someone else or you might know the specific rule, but until I can be disproven, I am assuming it is a violation to which the NCAA will just turn a blind eye.

A new article with the same conclusion:

Penn State Athletics
The practice will be the team's first official session as NCAA rules stipulate Oct. 6 as the first day for organized team practices.

Source: [www.gopsusports.com]

Aaron M. Griffin

adamw
I believe you, But there's a discrepancy, because I've talked to coaches this week that have been with players at practice, and there have been many other public statements from coaches about it. I'm sure they're not breaking rules. I believe they're allowed contact with them for a limited amount of time per day, and then the oct. 6 date would be another level of contact that's allowed.

Cheating? In sports? Never. I figured that someone else or you might know the specific rule, but until I can be disproven, I am assuming it is a violation to which the NCAA will just turn a blind eye.

A new article with the same conclusion:

Penn State Athletics
The practice will be the team's first official session as NCAA rules stipulate Oct. 6 as the first day for organized team practices.

Source: [www.gopsusports.com]

The question isn't whether teams cheat. The question is "do teams cheat openly and talk about it in the press". I'm with Adam that it is unlikely that they do. I think Adam's point is that "organized team practices" may be defined more loosely than you are defining it with respect to the involvement or attendance of the coaches.

All I'm saying is that Adam's view can be reconciled with your calendar checking.

ugarte

Aaron M. Griffin

adamw
I believe you, But there's a discrepancy, because I've talked to coaches this week that have been with players at practice, and there have been many other public statements from coaches about it. I'm sure they're not breaking rules. I believe they're allowed contact with them for a limited amount of time per day, and then the oct. 6 date would be another level of contact that's allowed.

Cheating? In sports? Never. I figured that someone else or you might know the specific rule, but until I can be disproven, I am assuming it is a violation to which the NCAA will just turn a blind eye.

A new article with the same conclusion:

Penn State Athletics
The practice will be the team's first official session as NCAA rules stipulate Oct. 6 as the first day for organized team practices.

Source: [www.gopsusports.com]

The question isn't whether teams cheat. The question is "do teams cheat openly and talk about it in the press". I'm with Adam that it is unlikely that they do. I think Adam's point is that "organized team practices" may be defined more loosely than you are defining it with respect to the involvement or attendance of the coaches.

All I'm saying is that Adam's view can be reconciled with your calendar checking.

I totally agree with your interpretation, but why is it so hard to get the exact rule? It must be defined somewhere. Adam, when you talk to a couple of coaches, can't you resolve this? Does anyone else have contact with a coach?

I will try to pin down the exact definition of what's going on. I can virtually guarantee nobody is openly flaunting the breaking of NCAA rules. I'm sure there's just some leeway to the book definition that allows some semblance of contact in September...I just don't know what it is precisely. Or some second tier type of definition...like, no contact prior to sept. 1, then limited contact until oct. 6. I don't know. I just made that up. But something like that.

adamw
I will try to pin down the exact definition of what's going on. I can virtually guarantee nobody is openly flaunting the breaking of NCAA rules. I'm sure there's just some leeway to the book definition that allows some semblance of contact in September...I just don't know what it is precisely. Or some second tier type of definition...like, no contact prior to sept. 1, then limited contact until oct. 6. I don't know. I just made that up. But something like that.

Thanks.

There is ample opportunity for the staff to interact with the players before "offical" practices. Here are the rules that I found (see the last sentence, it is a very large fig leaf. It walks and quacks but is not a duck)

7.02.13 Voluntary Athletically Related Activities. Effective Date: Aug 01, 2004 In order for any athletically related activity to be considered "voluntary," all of the following conditions must be met: (Adopted: 4/18/01)

(a) The student-athlete must not be required to report back to a coach or other athletics department staff member (e.g., strength coach, trainer, manager) any information related to the activity. In addition, no athletics department staff member who observes the activity (e.g., strength coach, trainer, manager) may report back to the student-athlete's coach any information related to the activity;

(b) The activity must be initiated and requested solely by the student-athlete. Neither the institution nor any athletics department staff member may require the student-athlete to participate in the activity at any time. However, it is permissible for an athletics department staff member to provide information to student-athletes related to available opportunities for participating in voluntary activities (e.g., times when
the strength and conditioning coach will be on duty in the weight room or on the track). In addition, for students who have initiated a request to engage in voluntary activities, the institution or an athletics department staff member may assign specific times for student-athletes to use institutional facilities for such purposed and inform the student-athletes of the time in advance;

(c) The student-athlete's attendance and participation in the activity (or lack thereof) may not be recorded for the purposes of reporting such information to coaching staff members or other student-athletes; and

(d) The student-athlete may not be subjected to penalty if he or she elects not to participate in the activity. In addition, neither the institution nor any athletics department staff member may provide recognition or incentives (e.g., awards) to a student-athlete based on his or her attendance or performance in the activity.

[Note: Coaching staff members may be present during permissible skill-related instruction pursuant to Bylaw 17.1.5.2.1] (Revised: 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04)

Thanks, Towerroad. That rule pretty much says, in dry statutory form, what Adam assumed.

Towerroad
There is ample opportunity for the staff to interact with the players before "offical" practices. Here are the rules that I found (see the last sentence, it is a very large fig leaf. It walks and quacks but is not a duck)

7.02.13 Voluntary Athletically Related Activities. Effective Date: Aug 01, 2004 In order for any athletically related activity to be considered "voluntary," all of the following conditions must be met: (Adopted: 4/18/01)

(a) The student-athlete must not be required to report back to a coach or other athletics department staff member (e.g., strength coach, trainer, manager) any information related to the activity. In addition, no athletics department staff member who observes the activity (e.g., strength coach, trainer, manager) may report back to the student-athlete's coach any information related to the activity;

(b) The activity must be initiated and requested solely by the student-athlete. Neither the institution nor any athletics department staff member may require the student-athlete to participate in the activity at any time. However, it is permissible for an athletics department staff member to provide information to student-athletes related to available opportunities for participating in voluntary activities (e.g., times when
the strength and conditioning coach will be on duty in the weight room or on the track). In addition, for students who have initiated a request to engage in voluntary activities, the institution or an athletics department staff member may assign specific times for student-athletes to use institutional facilities for such purposed and inform the student-athletes of the time in advance;

(c) The student-athlete's attendance and participation in the activity (or lack thereof) may not be recorded for the purposes of reporting such information to coaching staff members or other student-athletes; and

(d) The student-athlete may not be subjected to penalty if he or she elects not to participate in the activity. In addition, neither the institution nor any athletics department staff member may provide recognition or incentives (e.g., awards) to a student-athlete based on his or her attendance or performance in the activity.

[Note: Coaching staff members may be present during permissible skill-related instruction pursuant to Bylaw 17.1.5.2.1] (Revised: 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04)

The highlighted clauses all imply that the head coach is not involved, with the broadest interpretation, and is not initiating the practice, with the narrowest interpretation. Union's players all imply that Bennett mandated, planned, initiated, and conducted these practices. The interpretation of the clauses you cite above that I have heard most often, and which is in accord with what Colorado College, Wisconsin, and Penn State are doing, is that coaches, usually assistant and strength coaches, sometimes coaches from the opposite gender program, are allowed to watch practice for safety reasons to ensure that no players injure themselves. However, the coaches's role are more analogous to those of lifeguards rather than those assumed of coaches. Also, if we assume that the above clauses that you and I have cited must not be read with their plain meaning that the coach cannot mandate and lead practice, Union is in violation still of one more clause regarding skills-based practice.

17.1.6.2.2 Skill Instruction - Sports Other Than Baseball and Football
Participation by student- athletes in skill-related instruction in sports other than baseball and football is permitted outside the institu- tion’s declared playing season, from the institution’s first day of classes of the academic year or September 15, whichever occurs earlier, to one week prior to the beginning of the institution’s final examination period at the conclusion of the academic year [see Bylaw 17.1.6.2-(a)]. More than four student-athletes from the team may be involved in skill-related instruction with their coaches from September 15 through April 15. Prior to September 15 and after April 15, not more than four student-athletes from the same team may be involved in skill-related instruction with their coaches at any one time in any facility. Skill-related instruction shall not be publicized and shall not be conducted in view of a general public audience.

I think posts on twitter and a write-up from Ken Schott indicate both publication and the practice's being in view of the general public. I find the rule monumentally stupid. Logically, I would see why Union would not want to abide by any of this, but the rules are the rules. To abridge them, is to gain a competitive advantage. The only legitimate statutory purview of the NCAA. What if Merrimack does not break them? The Warriors will be headed then into a clash with a team that has been coached for three weeks while they will not have had a single day of coach-led practice.

If there is some definitive and comprehensive interpretations that reconciles what could be internal contradictions of the rules, I am curious to read them. No one on here has proffered one. The clearest interpretations allow coaches on the ice, but not coaches leading practice. Were this program a flashier, more prestigious program, we would probably not be waiving it all off as "they can't be breaking the rules." This is one of the rules taken most seriously in other sports.

Arron

I suspect that there is very little real difference between a voluntary practice and a formal practice. Do you really think that players can blow off this practice. Do you really think that the coaches who can be there and can provide skill instruction don't know who is there or not there even if they do now write it down?

When the coaching staff arranges for ice time for "voluntary practice" do you think the expectation is that only a part of the team will show up? When you make a facility available the you might just as well announce a practice schedule.

I suspect that these rules are just NC$$ window dressing particularly for money sports. The difference between a voluntary practice and an official practice is the difference between damn and swearing.

Towerroad
Arron

I suspect that there is very little real difference between a voluntary practice and a formal practice. Do you really think that players can blow off this practice. Do you really think that the coaches who can be there and can provide skill instruction don't know who is there or not there even if they do now write it down?

When the coaching staff arranges for ice time for "voluntary practice" do you think the expectation is that only a part of the team will show up? When you make a facility available the you might just as well announce a practice schedule.

I suspect that these rules are just NC$$ window dressing particularly for money sports. The difference between a voluntary practice and an official practice is the difference between damn and swearing.

This. Nowhere in the rules does it say that the head coach (or any other coach, for that matter) is not allowed to attend voluntary practices. Nowhere does it say that the captain or other team members are not allowed to report back to the head coach about the practice (it only bans other staff members from doing so). The coaches are there, they know who was there, and participation in voluntary practice sessions definitely will affect your standing on the team, despite any contortions the lawyers want to dream up. I haven't seen or heard anything that leads me to believe that Union is breaking any of the rules. To convince me, you'd have to provide a copy of the email where the coach tells the players that they have to be at practice, or provide a copy of the attendance log that the coach took at the practices, etc. The coach's simply being at an organized practice session where the ice was reserved for the varsity team members to use is NOT, in and of itself, a violation.

Speculation, speculation, speculation...

I hope Adam can help us, otherwise we are just whistling Dixie.

Jim Hyla
Speculation, speculation, speculation...

I hope Adam can help us, otherwise we are just whistling Dixie.

I hope he responds. But, in the meantime...

Cornell ranks 6th in the 1st USA Hockey poll of 2012-13. The fourth-highest ranking Cornell has had to begin a season. usahockey.com/College/MensPo…

— WAFT Blog (@CornellWAFT) September 24, 2012

Aaron M. Griffin

Jim Hyla
Speculation, speculation, speculation...

I hope Adam can help us, otherwise we are just whistling Dixie.

I hope he responds. But, in the meantime...

Cornell ranks 6th in the 1st USA Hockey poll of 2012-13. The fourth-highest ranking Cornell has had to begin a season. usahockey.com/College/MensPo…

— WAFT Blog (@CornellWAFT) September 24, 2012

If we are arguing about the arcane corners of the NCAA rules then the Red and White game cannot come quick enough.

LGR!

Towerroad

Aaron M. Griffin

Jim Hyla
Speculation, speculation, speculation...

I hope Adam can help us, otherwise we are just whistling Dixie.

I hope he responds. But, in the meantime...

Cornell ranks 6th in the 1st USA Hockey poll of 2012-13. The fourth-highest ranking Cornell has had to begin a season. usahockey.com/College/MensPo…

— WAFT Blog (@CornellWAFT) September 24, 2012

If we are arguing about the arcane corners of the NCAA rules then the Red and White game cannot come quick enough.

LGR!

Agreed. I can't wait to retire the "Off Season" thread.

RichH

Towerroad

Aaron M. Griffin

Jim Hyla
Speculation, speculation, speculation...

I hope Adam can help us, otherwise we are just whistling Dixie.

I hope he responds. But, in the meantime...

Cornell ranks 6th in the 1st USA Hockey poll of 2012-13. The fourth-highest ranking Cornell has had to begin a season. usahockey.com/College/MensPo…

— WAFT Blog (@CornellWAFT) September 24, 2012

If we are arguing about the arcane corners of the NCAA rules then the Red and White game cannot come quick enough.

LGR!

Agreed. I can't wait to retire the "Off Season" thread.

Looking forward to lighting a candle in memory of the thread...

USA Today/USA Hockey Magazine Preseason Poll

        Team	          Points       2011-12 Record
1	Boston College	  476 (20)     33-10-1
2	Minnesota	  476 (12)     28-14-1
3	Michigan	  408 (2)      24-13-4
4	North Dakota	  407	       26-13-3
5	Union College	  295	       26-8-7
6	Cornell	          233	       19-9-7
7	UMass-Lowell	  221	       24-13-1
8	Denver	          220	       25-14-4
9	Miami	          203	       24-15-2
10	Notre Dame	  186	       19-18-3
11	Western Michigan  182	       21-14-6
12	Minnesota Duluth  176          25-10-6
13	Boston University 158	       23-15-1
14	Ferris State	  123	       26-12-5
15	Wisconsin	   99	       17-18-2

Others receiving votes: Harvard University, 58; University of Maine, 24; Quinnipiac University, 24; Michigan State University, 19; Colorado College, 19; University of New Hampshire, 17; Ohio State University, 17; St. Cloud (Minn.) State University, 15; Merrimack College, 7; Providence College, 6; Yale University, 6; United States Air Force Academy, 3; Northern Michigan University, 1; Michigan Tech University, 1.

nyc94
USA Today/USA Hockey Magazine Preseason Poll

        Team	          Points       2011-12 Record
1	Boston College	  476 (20)     33-10-1
2	Minnesota	  476 (12)     28-14-1
3	Michigan	  408 (2)      24-13-4
4	North Dakota	  407	       26-13-3
5	Union College	  295	       26-8-7
6	Cornell	          233	       19-9-7
7	UMass-Lowell	  221	       24-13-1
8	Denver	          220	       25-14-4
9	Miami	          203	       24-15-2
10	Notre Dame	  186	       19-18-3
11	Western Michigan  182	       21-14-6
12	Minnesota Duluth  176          25-10-6
13	Boston University 158	       23-15-1
14	Ferris State	  123	       26-12-5
15	Wisconsin	   99	       17-18-2

Others receiving votes: Harvard University, 58; University of Maine, 24; Quinnipiac University, 24; Michigan State University, 19; Colorado College, 19; University of New Hampshire, 17; Ohio State University, 17; St. Cloud (Minn.) State University, 15; Merrimack College, 7; Providence College, 6; Yale University, 6; United States Air Force Academy, 3; Northern Michigan University, 1; Michigan Tech University, 1.

That means we have 6 games against ranked opponents (7 if we face Minnesota-Duluth) and 8 more against teams that also received votes. That's nearly half the regular season schedule.

jtn27

nyc94
USA Today/USA Hockey Magazine Preseason Poll

        Team	          Points       2011-12 Record
1	Boston College	  476 (20)     33-10-1
2	Minnesota	  476 (12)     28-14-1
3	Michigan	  408 (2)      24-13-4
4	North Dakota	  407	       26-13-3
5	Union College	  295	       26-8-7
6	Cornell	          233	       19-9-7
7	UMass-Lowell	  221	       24-13-1
8	Denver	          220	       25-14-4
9	Miami	          203	       24-15-2
10	Notre Dame	  186	       19-18-3
11	Western Michigan  182	       21-14-6
12	Minnesota Duluth  176          25-10-6
13	Boston University 158	       23-15-1
14	Ferris State	  123	       26-12-5
15	Wisconsin	   99	       17-18-2

Others receiving votes: Harvard University, 58; University of Maine, 24; Quinnipiac University, 24; Michigan State University, 19; Colorado College, 19; University of New Hampshire, 17; Ohio State University, 17; St. Cloud (Minn.) State University, 15; Merrimack College, 7; Providence College, 6; Yale University, 6; United States Air Force Academy, 3; Northern Michigan University, 1; Michigan Tech University, 1.

That means we have 6 games against ranked opponents (7 if we face Minnesota-Duluth) and 8 more against teams that also received votes. That's nearly half the regular season schedule.

Which is not really that big a deal considering that half the teams in College Hockey recieved votes in the poll.