[OT] NCAA Revisits Native American Team Nicknames

[Greenberg \'97]

[Q]Jacob 03 Wrote:

[Q2]Greenberg '97 Wrote:

 I'll take the NCAA seriously when it considers banning the most offensive nickname in all of sports.  But as long as Notre Dame can sign billion-dollar TV contracts, that's not going to happen.
[/Q]
I understand the desire for prioritization, but do you honestly think "Fighting Irish" (even WITH the deplorable caricature) is really worse than "Redskins?"[/q]


For the record, I don't find words to be offensive.  I'm just pointing out inconsistencies in what the NCAA is choosing to target.

But if "Fighting Irish" isn't derogatory, it's at least referring to a classic, and possibly offensive to some, stereotype -- that Irish people like to fight.  Remember, newspapers can no longer use the term "Paddy Wagon," for precisely the same reason.

I guess my point is that the NCAA should just mind its P's and Q's...

[Ken \'70]

[Q]krose Wrote:

 How about people stop looking for ways to be offended, and just live their lives?  

Kyle[/q]

This would leave Jesse Jackson, the NAACP, the ACLU, Bill Moyers, and the rest of the thought police without anything to do.  (But only for about 12 seconds)  

[Jim Hyla]

[Q]Ken '70 Wrote:

 [Q2]krose Wrote:

 How about people stop looking for ways to be offended, and just live their lives?  

Kyle[/Q]
This would leave Jesse Jackson, the NAACP, the ACLU, Bill Moyers, and the rest of the thought police without anything to do.  (But only for about 12 seconds)  [/q]I always find it interesting when people not directly bothered by something try to tell those that are to get over it. I would hope that first we all try and understand the feelings of others, then try and help each other to work to a common understanding. I actually think Bill Moyers is quite good at that.

I don't really understand the comment (But only for about 12 seconds) in refence to the rest of Ken's post. Help?

[Jeff Hopkins '82]

I can handle it if someone wants to address something that's clearly offensive to an oppressed minority or has racial overtones.  Redskins screams of this.  Indians or Braves less so, but I'll accept the need for the change.  Celtics and Fighting Irish would have 70 years ago, except now that the Irish are not an oppressed minority, the names aren't really offensive and the issue goes away.

But to take names like "Warriors" or "Redmen" and say they're insulting to Native Americans when there's nothing left associated with Native Americans to the name is over-reaching, IMHO.  That's when I start getting upset at political correctness.

My favorite example is that of a type of common bird seed, Niger thistle.  The name comes from a plant that was initially found in the area of the Niger River in Africa.  However, some people misread/mispronounced the name and got upset.  The marketing people now sell it as nyjer, so as to be politically correct.   ::help::

[min]

[Q]Jim Hyla Wrote:

I don't really understand the comment (But only for about 12 seconds) in refence to the rest of Ken's post. Help?[/q]

please add me to the list... i also didn't get the comment.
additionally, why are jesse jackson, aclu, naacp and bill moyers equated to "the rest of the thought police"?

[KeithK]

Not trying to put words in Ken's mouth, but I assume he meant that it would only take 12 seconds before these people would find something else to complain about.

[Greenberg \'97]

[Q]Jeff Hopkins '82 Wrote:

 I can handle it if someone wants to address something that's clearly offensive to an oppressed minority or has racial overtones.  Redskins screams of this.  Indians or Braves less so, but I'll accept the need for the change.  Celtics and Fighting Irish would have 70 years ago, except now that the Irish are not an oppressed minority, the names aren't really offensive and the issue goes away.

[/q]

Now you bring up a whole different issue.  Just because a group isn't an oppressed minority doesn't mean they can't be offended by a label.

Conversely (or reversely -- I forget logic), this reminds me of a (brief) conversation I had years ago back on the hill...  From what I remember,  I was pointing out to a black classmate of mine that I viewed a prominent black person's comments as racist.  He said that the oppressed minority, by definition, cannot be considered racist.::rolleyes::

[Steve M]

And if you disagree with a prominent person from an oppressed minority you are, of course, a racist.  ::screwy::

[Ken \'70]

[Q]Jim Hyla Wrote:

 [Q2]Ken '70 Wrote:

 [Q2]krose Wrote:

 How about people stop looking for ways to be offended, and just live their lives?  

Kyle[/Q]
 I would hope that first we all try and understand the feelings of others, then try and help each other to work to a common understanding. I actually think Bill Moyers is quite good at that. [/q]

You're kidding, right?

[Rosey]

[Q]
I always find it interesting when people not directly bothered by something try to tell those that are to get over it. I would hope that first we all try and understand the feelings of others, then try and help each other to work to a common understanding.[/q]

Pfft.  I never get offended by anything.  Think up a label that applies (geek, nerd, 98-pound weakling, etc.) and I guarantee you I just don't care.  Others should learn from me not to let their feelings be dictated by the words of others.  Perpetual victimhood doesn't correlate well with success; nor is it particularly attractive.

Kyle

[Beeeej]

[Q]Steve M Wrote:
I've never heard of a European American protest over the use of the Celtics, Fighting Irish, or Vikings for sports teams, but could understand it if people got upset if someone wanted to name a team the Crackers or the Honkeys.[/q]

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Beeeej

[Jeff Hopkins '82]

You're misrepresenting what I said.  I didn't say that because the Irish are not an oppressed minority they can't be offended.  I said that because they are no longer an oppressed minority, the majority of them do not feel offended because there's no "threat" in the nickname.

And I'm with you completely on your second point.  Racist is in the eyes of the offended, not the offender.

[DeltaOne81]

[Q]krose Wrote:
Pfft.  I never get offended by anything.  Think up a label that applies (geek, nerd, 98-pound weakling, etc.) and I guarantee you I just don't care.  Others should learn from me not to let their feelings be dictated by the words of others.  Perpetual victimhood doesn't correlate well with success; nor is it particularly attractive.[/q]
Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Yeah... right.

[ugarte]

[Q]krose Wrote:

 [Q2]
I always find it interesting when people not directly bothered by something try to tell those that are to get over it. I would hope that first we all try and understand the feelings of others, then try and help each other to work to a common understanding.[/Q]
Pfft.  I never get offended by anything.  Think up a label that applies (geek, nerd, 98-pound weakling, etc.) and I guarantee you I just don't care.  Others should learn from me not to let their feelings be dictated by the words of others.  Perpetual victimhood doesn't correlate well with success; nor is it particularly attractive.[/q]Kyle won't date mopey Indian chicks. Noted. But totally besides the point.

The issue is complicated because even within the Native American community there is debate of the appropriateness of the symbols. I'm pretty sure that the Seminole Tribe (Nation?) supports FSU's use of Chief Osceola and I think Illiniwek is tribe-approved as well. But still, there is legitimate grounds for offense. Whatever a mascot is, it is something other than "person." I don't get particularly offended by the use of names like Warrior or Raider because I never interpreted them as Native Americans; I understand if those that do see the connection are offended.

Notre Dame is always brought up, but it is a particularly silly example. The school may be named after a French cathedral, but it is a Roman Catholic institution that has always had a lot of Irishmen in charge. Notre Dame is saying "this is who we are," not "this is a symbol of fierceness that we wish our players to emulate." Big difference. It would be a controversy if Notre Dame was called the "Maccabees;" not so much when it's Yeshiva.

[KeithK]

Likewise, I belive the Fighting Sioux nickname is approved by the local Sioux tribe in North Dakota.