joe nieuwendyk

[cquinn]

For those who have CBC coverage (does anyone else besides me live near the northern border?), Joe's going to do a live in-studio interview in a few minutes.

[cquinn]

The skating commentators are still idiots but kudos to Brian Williams, one of the CBC hosts.  In both his introduction of Joe and the wrap-up at the end he said, "Joe Nieuwendyk from Cornell University and ." No mention of Dallas whatsoever.  :-)  Love it.

[Greg Berge]

Joe's hometown is Oshawa.

[Al DeFlorio]

>And that reason is the award was started too late to reflect the great players in the 1960's.

And the 1970s.

[melissa]

damn, i miss cbc! hope that you enjoyed the interview!:-)

[nshapiro]

Greg, I agree with your assessment of the Fuscos....they were outstanding at the collegiate level.

I don't know if this choice will bring back bad memories, but the second best player I saw for Cornell - factoring in what we thought was potential- was Gary Cullen his freshman year.   It looked like he would be a superstar, but he just coasted away the last 3 years, and may have been the biggest disappointment in the end.

[Anne 85]

Okay, I can't resist.  I don't really remember much about Cullen's play, but I have very vivid memories of my friend Sarah, who played hockey herself, constantly exhorting him to move his ass.

One of my all-time favorite players was Randy MacFarlane (#15).  As I recall, he skated beautifully and was a terrific stick-handler.  My favorite part was watching him skate circles around the other team when killing penalties.  (Of course, it was a long time ago.  I'm not sure how much the years have improved his play.)

And, as everyone else has already said, it was a blast watching Joe play.  It was clear that he was very good, although I never would have predicted such a long and successful pro career.  For some reason, the move I remember the most was Joe scoring on the wraparound from behind the net.  Actually, that's a lie.  The move I remember best was Joe passing the puck to Duane Moeser who scored the winning goal in double overtime in the ECAC playoffs (i can never remember if it was '85 or '86).  And then there was the joy of watching him on TV -- scoring 4 goals against the Bruins in his rookie year (or maybe it was his second year).

[CUlater \'89]

The Fusco brothers were "steady and strong"?  I didn't see Mark play but I did see Scott during his senior, Hobey-Baker-winning season and he certainly got my attention, with his skating and scoring.  The biggest impression I have of him is that if he hadn't gotten hurt, Harvard would have crushed Michigan State in the NCAA finals.

For second-best player, how about Duane Moeser?  I missed his early seasons, when supposedly he was very dynamic, but during his senior year he certainly still got the job done, though not spectacularly.

For someone whose whole Cornell career that I saw, I'd have to pick Doug Derraugh, who got better every season as a two-way player and, with Ryan Hughes and Trent Andison, dominated during the '90-'91 season (30-36-66).

For a career that lasted not much more than a single season, how about Parris Duffus?

[Al DeFlorio]

Or Doug Dadswell, as long as we're speaking of 'tenders with short careers.

[Greg Berge]

I can't judge goalies and players on the same scale.  For great goaltenders since 1980, IMHO nobody's beat Doug Dadswell.  He was truly unbelievable.  The 60+ save performance in the ECAC SF in 1986 (the same game when Moeser buried Joe's pass to win it in double overtime) is the greatest goaltending game I've ever seen.

Of course, even just in my time there have been several other truly great Cornell goaltenders (Brian Hayward, Darren Eliot, Paris Duffus, Jean Marc Pelletier, Jason Elliott, and of course Underhill and LeNeveu).

It really is Goaltender U.

[Chuck Henderson]

 Bill Fenwick writes

> Easily the best Cornell forward I have ever seen, dating back
> to my first game in December of '82.

And the best I've seen, going back to the first games played at
Lynah.

> There's a reason why, to this day, he is the only Cornell 
> player to have been a Hobey Baker finalist.

Greg says

> And that reason is the award was started too late to reflect 
> the great players in the 1960's. 

Yes, players like Doug Ferguson, Lodboa, and Nethery, not to
mention Dryden, would have been finalists, some with a good
chance to win it (assuming the western bias didn't prevail).
There were seasons when Cornell represented a quarter or more
of the All American first team (6 from the east and 6 from the
west making up the team).  Didn't we have 3 in '67 and 4 in '68
and '69?

> He was scary by the end of his freshman year, and by midway
> through sophomore year he was simply well above the college
> level.
>
> I completely agree with his decision to leave after three
> seasons (how many guys can go right from college to centering
> the second line on a Cup-contending team?)

And first line some of the season.  I don't think he would have
left if he hadn't known he was headed straight for regular
play.  After Cornell was eliminated at the end of the '86-'87
season, he said that he would be playing a regular shift for
the remainder of the Calgary season, and Calgary people said
the same.  I think this is one of the indications that by his
junior year he was one of the college players most able to step
in at a high NHL level and by implication one of the best
college players ever.

> but we can only imagine what he might have done along side
> Andison and Derraugh on that surprise 1988 team.

And what if Dadswell had stayed through his senior year as
well.  D'Alessio wasn't bad, but Dadswell would still have had
'86 potential.

Neil adds

> Joe was definitely the best Cornell player I have seen (since
> 1980). I just missed Nethery, so someone else has to do that
> comparison. Tredway was a great scorer, but not well rounded
> enough to make it in the NHL.

This really depends on career versus peak.  One can make a
strong case for Nethery as the best Cornell forward over a
career.  (And Tredway the best goal scorer, although for the
reasons you say, not a contender for the best player.)

Then there are the difficulties in comparing eras.  Where does
one rank Ferguson?  An interesting topic for another thread is
how Cornell teams from different eras would do against each
other.  My thought is that the quality of play is higher now
than in days past.  I'll suggest, at least for purposes of
discussion, that the current team would likely handle the best
teams from the glory years.  It's true that we had a near
monopoly on Ontario talent back then, but I think that's
outweighed by the overall improvement in skill and increase in
size.  (But then, maybe Dryden could tip the balance in this
hypothetical matchup.)

> The only other ECAC players I saw who were possibly better
> than Joe were RPI's Adam Oates, who has proven his worth in
> the NHL, and Vermont's Kirk McCaskill, who gave up on hockey
> and pitched in the Majors instead.

We need to add in Dave Taylor.  I've always thought that he and
Nieuwendyk were the two best from the ECAC, with Nieuwendyk
taking the top spot if the criterion is peak value.

Greg again:

> The only college players I have seen that I would rate higher
> than Joe based on their college performance were Lane
> MacDonald of Harvard and Paul Kariya of Maine. MacDonald
> never made it in the pros due in part to an injury that left
> him with a plate in his head, and Kariya... well, he
> remembers Joe, that's for sure.

I liked MacDonald a lot as a player.  He's certainly Harvard's
best.  But not better than Nieuwendyk at peak value.

> The Fuscos were excellent players (damn them to hell for it),
> but they didn't have the "jump out of your socks" spark of
> guys like John Carter and Adam Oates (RPI), Allen Bourbeau
> (Harvard), or the dwarves (Martin St. Louis and Eric Perrin,
> Vermont). They were more like Todd White (Clarkson) or
> Brandon Dietrich (the SLU guy who knocked Cornell out of the
> 2000 SF in overtime) -- very steady and strong, with a few
> flashes, but not really "flashy."

I agree.  I always thought the Fuscos were overrated.

> So who was the second-best Cornell player you've ever seen? I
> saw just one year of Roy Kerling and didn't really get a feel
> for him, so I think I would go with Dan Ratushny.

I think it has to be Nethery, but I'd put Kerling and some
others ahead of Ratushny as well, although we're mixing
forwards and defensemen.  Among defensemen, I'll put Lodboa
ahead of Ratushny, and maybe Shier if one favors offense.

> I can't judge goalies and players on the same scale. For
> great goaltenders since 1980, IMHO nobody's beat Doug
> Dadswell. He was truly unbelievable. The 60+ save performance
> in the ECAC SF in 1986 (the same game when Moeser buried
> Joe's pass to win it in double overtime) is the greatest
> goaltending game I've ever seen.

I'll agree with this.  For a single season, Dadswell has to be
right at the top, even if one goes back before your 1980
window.  But save percentages don't bear this out.  What's the
best statistical basis of comparison across eras?  Probably
something like save percentage relative to league or national
average is needed.