PPGs Ending Penalties

[Beeeej]

I forgot to ask this question after the @Yale game, but there was a similar incident tonight, so I'm definitely going to ask this time.

My understanding was that when Team A scores on a power play, if Team B has two men in the box, the man that comes out is the one who first made the penalty-killing team short-handed, not simply the one who was called for the earliest penalty or with the least time left in his penalty.  But both @Yale, and tonight when Bitz and Mugford were in the box, the player who'd first made Cornell short-handed was the latter called penalty - in tonight's case, Mugford - yet both times, they simply let the player with less time left on his penalty out of the box, in this case Bitz.

Did the rule change?  Has my understanding been wrong all this time?  Did they genuinely make a mistake that nobody else caught?  Will Maxie's have their chorizo hash and three poached eggs and hollandaise special at brunch tomorrow?  These are questions I want answered.

[calgARI '07]

Maybe I'm not understanding your question, but the guy with less time on his penalty is the one who goes out of the box when a team is down two men.  If team A gets a penalty, then team B, then team A gets another and team B scores on the 4-on-3, it is the first player from team A who gets out of the box.

[Beeeej]

In your hypothetical, the first player from team A is the one who first made the team short-handed, so of course he gets out of the box first, according to the rule I've always known, and according to common sense.

Let me clarify:  In tonight's situation (and in the one @Yale), team A's first penalty didn't make the team short-handed.  Tonight, Wayne State got a penalty, so Cornell had 5x4; then Bitz was called, making it 4x4, then Mugford was called, making Cornell short-handed, 4x3.  Then Wayne State's penalty expired, giving them the 5x3 on which they scored.  So when Wayne State scored, Mugford should have been the one released, even if that's not "common sense.".  The rule as I've always known it is that the player who first made the team short-handed is released upon the scoring of a PPG against his team.

It's possible, without the complete box score in front of me, that I'm remembering the sequence wrong - that Wayne State's penalty expired before Mugford was called, which would mean Bitz did "make" Cornell short-handed with his penalty - but I don't believe that to be the case.  I'm sure someone will let me know if I'm wrong.

[Jacob '06]

you may do better asking this on uscho where theres a few usa hockey officials who read there.

[bandrews37]

Heres your answer...

Power plays can end one of three ways, right? They can be killed off, scored on, or end when a player on your team gets called.

With Cornell on the power play, Bitz got sent to the box. That ended the Cornell power play - now, in theory, if there's no other penalty, that would mean that Wayne State would end up with a power play of its own once their man got out of the box.

Well, when Mugford got sent to the box, that began Wayne State's power play on the Bitz penalty. That meant Cornell had to kill off the Bitz penalty before they could kill off the Mugford one.

Basically, penalties must be killed off in the order in which they are handed down. As long as we're dealing with hypotheticals, say there were 1:55 between penalties, and off the ensuing face-off, a goal is scored. It helps the team committing the penalty if you let the second guy out first.

Hope that's clear (it's clear in my head, but doesn't always come off written that way).

[Dpperk29]

You are thinking of coincidental minors. When they call coincidental minors, no time goes on the clock and the teams play 5 on 5. in that case, there is no power play. Last night, and most every other night in college hockey, they put the penalties on the clock and play 4x4. when mugford took his penalty to make it 4X3, all the penalties were on the clock. so when WSU scored, the minor penalty with the least time, Bitz's expired.

The way it works is, when I team on the powerplay scores, the Minor on the clock with the least time is the one that expires.

[Beeeej]

[quote bandrews37]Well, when Mugford got sent to the box, that began Wayne State's power play on the Bitz penalty. That meant Cornell had to kill off the Bitz penalty before they could kill off the Mugford one.[/quote]

You lost me there.  Perhaps it's just semantic, but I don't see how the phrasing you used could possibly be correct.

Basically, penalties must be killed off in the order in which they are handed down.

That makes some sense in general, but not in light of the rule that I'm positive was valid at some point, that the penalty which first made the short-handed team short-handed is the one that comes off when a goal is scored against them.

As long as we're dealing with hypotheticals, say there were 1:55 between penalties, and off the ensuing face-off, a goal is scored. It helps the team committing the penalty if you let the second guy out first.

In that hypothetical, how long before Bitz's penalty was the Wayne State penalty called?  I agree that in that hypothetical, the rule I believe exists seems to help the team committing the second penalty, but if Bitz's penalty didn't make Cornell short-handed, the rule would apply and Mugford would be released.  If your statement is true that Mugford's penalty makes the Bitz powerplay begin, sure, what you're saying makes sense, but that's the statement that loses me logic-wise.

Hope that's clear (it's clear in my head, but doesn't always come off written that way).

It's somewhat clear what you think, but it doesn't address the rule that I believe exists.

Dpperk29's explanation seems more internally consistent, but then he sums it up with a rule that I don't believe is universally the case.

[reilly83]

when mugford took his penalty to make it 4X3, all the penalties were on the clock.

True, it was the Mugford penalty that made Cornell the short-handed team.

so when WSU scored, the minor penalty with the least time, Bitz's expired.

But it should have been the Mugford penalty that expired because the Mugford penalty caused Cornell to be the short-handed team at the time the goal was scored.

http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2006/2006_m_w_ice_hockey_rules.pdf
p. 35

HR-34
c. If the opposing team scores a goal while a team is short-handed by one
or more minor penalties, the short-handed team shall be permitted to
replace immediately on the ice the player whose minor or bench minor
penalty caused the team to be short-handed, except when a goal is
scored on a penalty shot.
Note: Short-handed means that the team must be below the numerical strength of
its opponent on the ice at the time the goal is scored. The minor penalty that terminates
automatically is the one that causes the team scored against to be short-handed.
A minor penalty shall not terminate as a result of a penalty-shot goal.


(And yes, I do spend my Sunday mornings reading the Rulebook :-))

[Beeeej]

[quote reilly83]

when mugford took his penalty to make it 4X3, all the penalties were on the clock.

True, it was the Mugford penalty that made Cornell the short-handed team.

so when WSU scored, the minor penalty with the least time, Bitz's expired.

But it should have been the Mugford penalty that expired because the Mugford penalty caused Cornell to be the short-handed team at the time the goal was scored.

http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2006/2006_m_w_ice_hockey_rules.pdf
p. 35

HR-34
c. If the opposing team scores a goal while a team is short-handed by one
or more minor penalties, the short-handed team shall be permitted to
replace immediately on the ice the player whose minor or bench minor
penalty caused the team to be short-handed, except when a goal is
scored on a penalty shot.
Note: Short-handed means that the team must be below the numerical strength of
its opponent on the ice at the time the goal is scored. The minor penalty that terminates
automatically is the one that causes the team scored against to be short-handed.
A minor penalty shall not terminate as a result of a penalty-shot goal.


(And yes, I do spend my Sunday mornings reading the Rulebook :-))[/quote]

THANK you!  I'm not insane, at least.  (Well, not about this.)  So why did they do it differently last night?

[las224]

This whole conversation has thoroughly confused me, so I think I'm just not going to both trying to understand it. However, I'm eager to hear the answer to your fourth question (sounds good)! ;-)

[Beeeej]

Maxie's turned out to be closed for brunch today, alas.  But the Ithaca Ale House's eggs benedict wasn't bad in a pinch.