ELynah Forum

General Category => Hockey => Topic started by: redhair34 on November 03, 2005, 02:55:16 PM

Title: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: redhair34 on November 03, 2005, 02:55:16 PM
According to CHN Schafer has been suspended one game.  ECAC homepage confirms this..."ECAC Hockey League Commissioner Steve Hagwell has announced that Cornell head coach Mike Schafer has been suspended for one game due to his post-game conduct last weekend vs. Michigan State. Schafer will serve his suspension this Friday, Nov. 4, when the Big Red travels to Yale. "
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Jacob '06 on November 03, 2005, 03:00:03 PM
[Q]Thursday, November 3
Cornell's Schafer Out for Friday's Game

ALBANY, N.Y. - ECAC Hockey League Commissioner Steve Hagwell has announced that Cornell head coach Mike Schafer has been suspended for one game due to his post-game conduct last weekend vs. Michigan State. Schafer will serve his suspension this Friday, Nov. 4, when the Big Red travels to Yale. [/Q]

From ECACHL's website.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game [why?]
Post by: Ben Rocky '04 on November 03, 2005, 03:03:45 PM
I wasn't in ithaca...... what did he do to get this?
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: DisplacedCornellian on November 03, 2005, 03:04:47 PM
I assume this is for the interactions with the MSU players?  

Meh...it's not the first time Mike has been suspended, and probably won't be the last.  Just one of the costs of having a coach who is passionate about the game, the players, and the fans.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: redhair34 on November 03, 2005, 03:33:54 PM
Nov. 3, 2005

From the athletic site...
 [Q]
ALBANY, N.Y. - ECAC Hockey League Commissioner Steve Hagwell has announced that Cornell head coach Mike Schafer has been suspended for one game due to his post-game conduct last weekend vs. Michigan State. Schafer will serve his suspension this Friday, Nov. 4, when the Big Red travels to Yale.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meakem*Smith Director of Athletics and Physical Education Andy Noel's statement regarding Coach Schafer's suspension -


"The Cornell Department of Athletics and Physical Education respects the authority of the ECACHL. Coach Schafer tried to calm a situation before it escalated. He regrets grabbing the jersey of an opposing player in an attempt to guide the team safely off the ice. We addressed this matter internally, and with this suspension consider the matter closed. Mike is a tremendous teacher of young men and a great role model in our community. We continue to offer Mike and his program our unwavering support." [/Q]

I've got to say, that is the best comment to come out of the athletics office in years.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: kaelistus on November 03, 2005, 03:34:47 PM
Kill, Schafer, Kill!

:-)
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: canuck89 on November 03, 2005, 03:41:44 PM
I agree!!!
Title: This is what he did..
Post by: Oat on November 03, 2005, 03:55:40 PM
MSU disrespected our team by refusing to leave our ice after the game and made rude gestures towards the fans (and not to mention Nightingoon who slapshot a bottle into the crowd, but this was of course after our crowd turned stupid and threw those bottles onto the ice). Anyway, Schafer went over to the MSU team and here is where we have many different perspectives and versions of the story:

1. My version:
He politely congratulated them on the win, encouraged them to celebrate outside with their parents, and gently nudged them toward the door in a fatherly and loving manner.

2. Other people's version:
He told them to get the hell off our ice and stop acting stupid. Then, seemingly unprovoked, he proceeded to strongarm some MSU children in front of their parents (shoved some idiots towards the exit and said "don't ever come back here again, you insignificant slime balls").


OK, no one knows for sure what he said. But as you can see, whether or not he deserves to be suspended is just a matter of opinion and I believe that the ECAC was working on the version 2 hear-say when they handed down the suspension. In my opinion, Feola should have been suspended for at least an equal (if not greater) length of time.
Title: Re: This is what he did..
Post by: redhair34 on November 03, 2005, 04:00:21 PM
[Q]Oat Wrote:

 MSU disrespected our team by refusing to leave our ice after the game and made rude gestures towards the fans (and not to mention Nightingoon who slapshot a bottle into the crowd, but this was of course after our crowd turned stupid and threw those bottles onto the ice). Anyway, Schafer went over to the MSU team and here is where we have many different perspectives and versions of the story:

1. My version:
He politely congratulated them on the win, encouraged them to celebrate outside with their parents, and gently nudged them toward the door in a fatherly and loving manner.

2. Other people's version:
He told them to get the hell off our ice and stop acting stupid. Then, seemingly unprovoked, he proceeded to strongarm some MSU children in front of their parents (shoved some idiots towards the exit and said "don't ever come back here again, you insignificant slime balls").


OK, no one knows for sure what he said. But as you can see, whether or not he deserves to be suspended is just a matter of opinion and I believe that the ECAC was working on the version 2 hear-say when they handed down the suspension. In my opinion, Feola should have been suspended for at least an equal (if not greater) length of time.[/q]

I'm guessing they believed something in between.  Otherwise you can bet he would have recieved a heftier punishment.
Title: Re: This is what he did..
Post by: canuck89 on November 03, 2005, 04:24:07 PM
I do agree, though, that the ECACHL should look at game footage and figure out what to do with Feola.  He did not call a fair game (He blew calls on both sides), and he missed some dangerous hits.  I can't wait 'til he comes back to lynah.  It's a good thing he probably doesn't beat his wife (For her sake), but that won't stop me next time for reminding him about his size:  "The Ref's beat by his wife..."
Title: Re: This is what he did..
Post by: dadeo on November 03, 2005, 05:15:21 PM
dont tell me Feola is turning into Murphy?!

Isnt Feola the only ECACHL ref to ref in NCAA games?
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Pace on November 03, 2005, 05:45:24 PM
Now, I'm curious. Does this mean Schafer can't be at the bench nor in the locker room on Friday, or is he barred from being anywhere in the arena at all?
Title: Re: This is what he did..
Post by: ithacat on November 03, 2005, 06:12:36 PM
Personally, I think he was trying to prevent a potential riot. He did what the MSU coaches and the refs failed to do.

I think shagwell did what he had to do with respect to Schafer. Regardless of the circumstances or cause, an opposing coach should not touch a player in the way Schafer did -- again, I still think he did the right thing.

I'll be very disappointed in shagwell if he doesn't come down hard on Feola. ::smashfreak::
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: BMac on November 03, 2005, 09:14:17 PM
So, the important question is: how do we deal with this? A huge, extended kill, schafer, kill at the start of the next game? A sign? I think it would be hilarious if showed we supported his conduct en masse.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Rich S on November 03, 2005, 09:18:10 PM
Supported his conduct?

Why is it a heinous offense for another coach to make contact with his own player and okay for Schafer to grab an opposing player?

Seems that the commish does not share that view and frankly, I think he was fortunate to get only a one game suspension.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Josh '99 on November 03, 2005, 09:24:30 PM
[Q]Rich S Wrote:

 Supported his conduct?

Why is it a heinous offense for another coach to make contact with his own player and okay for Schafer to grab an opposing player?

Seems that the commish does not share that view and frankly, I think he was fortunate to get only a one game suspension.[/q]

*snort*...  "make contact with".  Spin much?
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: kaelistus on November 03, 2005, 09:36:58 PM
Still, Rich has a point. Schafer was wrong. He admits it himself. So, support him, but do not support his conduct.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Will on November 03, 2005, 09:49:03 PM
[Q]kaelistus Wrote:

Schafer was wrong. He admits it himself. So, support him, but do not support his conduct.[/q]

Couldn't have said it better myself.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Rich S on November 03, 2005, 09:53:46 PM
Was he frustrated the refs weren't doing their job at the end of the game ?   Sounds like it from earlier comments.

Thats a real challenge for a coach at any level; I've felt it myself at the HS level.   Hagwell seems to be indicating he's holding the coach to a higher standard.  That's a good message for Schafer; on occasion I think his arrogance crosses the line.

Hopefully he investigates the officials too.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Rich S on November 03, 2005, 09:54:34 PM
Call it whatever you like.  ::rolleyes::
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Josh '99 on November 03, 2005, 10:01:11 PM
[Q]Rich S Wrote:

 Call it whatever you like.   [/q]

Well, you certainly chose to call it something that served your purpose.  ::rolleyes::
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Drew on November 03, 2005, 10:08:21 PM
[Q]jmh30 Wrote:

 [Q2]Rich S Wrote:

 Call it whatever you like.   [/Q]
Well, you certainly chose to call it something that served your purpose.   [/q]


Don't try to clean it up, it was poor form and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Rich S on November 03, 2005, 10:11:56 PM
So did you guys for quite awhile after the incident.  

I'm quite sure my understanding of the situation is closer to what took place than your version which you guys spun to characterize the guy as a sort of axe murderer.

Call it whatever you like means just that...it's in the past and you guys are convinced of what happened.

Acknowledge what Schafer did (the "grabbing") was wrong.  Don't support that part of jis behavior in the incident.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Beeeej on November 03, 2005, 10:14:19 PM
[Q]Rich S Wrote:
Acknowledge what Schafer did (the "grabbing") was wrong.  Don't support that part of jis {sic} behavior in the incident.[/q]

Pretty sure many of us have already done that, Rich.  And it wasn't because you said we had to.

Beeeej
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Robb on November 03, 2005, 11:28:13 PM
How many stiches did that MSU player need again?  



I mean, that was vicious contact with his jersey - might have burst a seam that would need darning...

::rolleyes::
Title: Re: This is what he did..
Post by: jtwcornell91 on November 04, 2005, 12:57:32 AM
[Q]Oat Wrote:
 I believe that the ECAC was working on the version 2 hear-say [/q]

It was more than just hearsay, since SHagwell was at the game, and presumably had a good view of the altercation from the zamboni door.  (Of course, I was in a similar vantage point in A, and managed to miss the inicident, mostly because I was busy yelling at the MSU players for being a bunch of classless punks.  I did see Schafer yell at the student section after the bottle-throwing, though.)
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: jy3 on November 04, 2005, 01:28:46 AM
uscho columnists weigh in

http://www.uscho.com/news/id,11035/ThisWeekintheCCHANov32005.html
http://www.uscho.com/news/id,11038/ThisWeekintheECACHLNov32005.html

i wasnt there...but in my opinion if an opposing coach touches another player then he should be disciplined. that is that. now lets get a bunch of points this weekend, red :)
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: evilnaturedrobot on November 04, 2005, 01:42:59 AM
It was wrong of him to touch another player, but this ie rediculous when you look at in context.  Schafer touches an aposing player and he's gone for a game.  Potter fires a puck into the stands and is back on the ice for the third period.  Which was the more dangerous offnese?
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: canuck89 on November 04, 2005, 08:43:09 AM
Fuck Feola!
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: RichS on November 04, 2005, 08:55:04 AM
Hurray for you Beej.   ::rolleyes::  

But, I didn't say you "had" to; it was merely a suggestion.  
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Beeeej on November 04, 2005, 09:03:15 AM
[Q]RichS Wrote:
Acknowledge what Schafer did (the "grabbing") was wrong.

Then clarified:
But, I didn't say you "had" to; it was merely a suggestion.   [/q]

Okay.

Beeeej
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Dafatone on November 04, 2005, 10:05:25 AM
I agree with everyone that we shouldn't be throwing bottles onto the ice.  But it wasn't any sort of torrential rain of debris, I counted maybe 4 or 5 thrown out there.  Still bad, but I think that's been blown out of proportion a bit.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Robb on November 04, 2005, 10:51:58 AM
I wish all those snobs at H-Y-P would stop thinking they're better than everyone so we wouldn't have to hear the "especially from the Ivy League" crap every time someone acts like a human being rather than an angel.  ::rolleyes::

The Ivy League is an athletic conference, nothing more.

I agree that Paula really spun up the "rain of bottles" angle.

Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: redhair34 on November 04, 2005, 11:02:07 AM
[Q]jy3 Wrote:

 uscho columnists weigh in




i wasnt there...but in my opinion if an opposing coach touches another player then he should be disciplined. that is that. now lets get a bunch of points this weekend, red[/q]

Paula C. Weston, for lack of a better word, is a moron.  
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: ben03 on November 04, 2005, 11:08:43 AM
[Q]redhair34 Wrote:
 [Q2]jy3 Wrote:
 uscho columnists weigh in
i wasnt there...but in my opinion if an opposing coach touches another player then he should be disciplined. that is that. now lets get a bunch of points this weekend, red[/Q]
Paula C. Weston, for lack of a better word, is a moron.  [/q]

... and she admits she wasn't even there! this is another example of piss-poor-modern-spin-machine BS that doesn't have all the facts.
throwing crap = bad. raining bottles = wasn't even there. ::help::
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: redhair34 on November 04, 2005, 11:34:50 AM
[Q]ben03 Wrote:

 [Q2]redhair34 Wrote:
 [Q2]jy3 Wrote:
 uscho columnists weigh in
i wasnt there...but in my opinion if an opposing coach touches another player then he should be disciplined. that is that. now lets get a bunch of points this weekend, red[/Q]
Paula C. Weston, for lack of a better word, is a moron.  [/Q]
... and she admits she wasn't even there! this is another example of piss-poor-modern-spin-machine BS that doesn't have all the facts.
throwing crap = bad. raining bottles = wasn't even there.[/q]

[Q]To celebrate a hard-fought victory, the Spartan players went to the corner section where their fans were sitting â€" mostly parents of the players â€" and saluted[/Q]

They didn't salute in the corner, they were at the center and facing the students.  She makes absolutely no comment about the taunting by the MSU player, nor does she mention Nightingale shooting a bottle back into the stands.

[Q]From what I know of fan behavior in recent years, I am not surprised by the hail of soda bottles and other materials, although it does sadden me.[/Q]
she should come for an Ithaca winter to get a better understanding of precipitation--I'd be happy to supply the tissues.

[Q]...that civility seems a lost cause in the arenas and rinks around the country, even at the college level, even in the Ivy League.[/Q]
How good of her to to hold the "Ivy League" to a higher standard (read:sarcastic).  I'd have to say the number of MSU players that needed a lesson in "civility" was greater than the number of bottle-throwing losers that needed the same lesson.

Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Mission Accomplished on November 04, 2005, 12:09:52 PM
[Q]Rich S Wrote:

I'm quite sure my understanding of the situation is closer to what took place than your version which you guys spun to characterize the guy as a sort of axe murderer.

Call it whatever you like means just that...it's in the past and you guys are convinced of what happened.[/q]

It was nice seeing you at the game.   ::nut::
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Mission Accomplished on November 04, 2005, 12:14:00 PM
[Q]Dafatone Wrote:

I counted maybe 4 or 5 thrown out there.[/q]

You can't count!  You can't count!

If you stayed long enough, you would have seen the girls come out with plastic bags to pick up all of the bottles.

Hell, you could spin and say Schafer was trying to protect the MSU players from our fans.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Beeeej on November 04, 2005, 12:44:38 PM
My e-mail, sent earlier today:

Hi, Paula -

I'm sure you're tired of hearing from people about the Cornell/MSU "incident," but I wanted to drop in my two cents.  For the record, I was there, I'm a Cornell alum, and I'm ashamed.  However:

First of all, what you referred to as a "hail of soda bottles and other materials" was, at most, four or five plastic bottles.  And none of them came near hitting an MSU player.  It was absolutely inappropriate and inexcusable behavior, but some people have been talking about it as if it rained shards of glass and lugwrenches and MSU's players were in mortal danger.

Second, it was not just in response to the officiating and the final score, it was also in response to some of the MSU players taunting the main Cornell student sections.  What the Spartans apparently don't understand is that 99% of what the Lynah Faithful do is never intended to be personal or vindictive - they love to get into players' heads during the game, but after the game is over, win or lose, they'd also love to go out with their opponents and their opponents' fans for a friendly quaff.  The Spartans and their families, perhaps unused to this kind of enthusiasm - or more pointedly, perhaps used to a more abusive, personal kind of enthusiasm at Yost - seemed to take it personally.  For NCAA Div. I athletes to take pleasure in needling opposing fans after a win - after a *split*, mind you, in which Cornell outplayed them five out of six periods - is a troubling, classless thing.  (And it proved that the Faithful *do* get into *some* players' heads.)

Third, at least one MSU player actually used his stick to shoot one of the bottles back into the crowd.  That the bottle was on the ice in the first place was, as I said, inexcusable, and I hope the students involved were punished - but it's equally inexcusable that this player suffered no consequences for his own behavior.

I will not defend Schafer's actions, but I'm glad you recognize what kind of human being he is.  And thank you for addressing the incident on USCHO.

Beeeej
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Scersk '97 on November 04, 2005, 12:53:14 PM
Bah, bottle throwing is for ninnies.

My best/worst memory of Lynah at near riot is from 1995, when, after a 2-2 tie with accompanying goal dislodging and falling on the puck on their part, RPI players acted like they had just won the damn Stanley Cup.  There was gesturing and throwing of sticks.  I don't remember any bottle or garbage throwing by the fans; instead, there was this bizarre crush towards the zamboni entrance, which was open for the RPI players to leave the ice.  Seriously, sections A and B (and a good number of the pep band) headed down the stands for a throwdown.  Without appropriate behavior by the law enforcement personnel between the groups, I'm not so sure that there wouldn't have been blows.  Maybe it's my imagination, but I remember a chant something like, "See you out-side!"  Fans waited around by the RPI team bus to give them a few more pieces of their minds.  It was unusual behavior to be part of and to observe.  Frankly, it was more than a little scary.

At least MSU had won the game.  Maybe these kids just don't understand that mobs are dangerous.  (C.f., soccer hooliganism.)  After an away win, you should pack up and get the hell off the ice.  Win and leave--then there's nobody for the fans to be angry at except their own team.  That's what Clarkson used to do back in the day:  they were clinical, absolutely clinical.  The difference in emotion between that RPI tie and the 3-1 loss to Erik Cole's Clarkson my senior year was substantial.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: JDeafv on November 04, 2005, 12:56:17 PM
Actually, one bottle did hit a MSU player (Chris Mueller) in the head.  Chris was standing outside the locker room after being injured in the first period.

Throwing bottles is stupid.

The CCHA and ECACHL columns didn’t mention the part about MSU players yelling obscenities and making crude sexual gestures towards sections A and B as they were getting off the ice.  ::rolleyes::
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: LynahFaithfulS on November 04, 2005, 01:16:17 PM
Robb--I agree with your Ivy league comment...they're probably just jealous that we have more plants growing on our buildings  ::nut::

Beeeej--very well said

redhair34--
I agree with your Ivy League comment too :-)
[Q]They didn't salute in the corner, they were at the center and facing the students.[/Q]
From where I was (sect B) it didn't really seem like the center to me...it did seem to be directed to their fans...but I agree that they should have just left the ice

(and do ovals have corners? ::nut:: ...sorry...i'm just happy it's friday...)

just my 2 cents on the matter

LFS
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Josh '99 on November 04, 2005, 02:25:04 PM
[Q]Scersk '97 Wrote:
Win and leave--then there's nobody for the fans to be angry at except their own team.  That's what Clarkson used to do back in the day:  they were clinical, absolutely clinical.  The difference in emotion between that RPI tie and the 3-1 loss to Erik Cole's Clarkson my senior year was substantial.[/q][nitpick]
Maybe you mean Todd White's Clarkson?  Erik Cole didn't get there until 97-98.
[/nitpick]
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Chris \'03 on November 04, 2005, 02:43:31 PM
[Q]Scersk '97 Wrote:

 Maybe these kids just don't understand that mobs are dangerous.  (C.f., soccer hooliganism.)  [/q]

Of course athletics doesn't know that mobs are dangerous either. (See, ticket line '05)
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Scersk '97 on November 04, 2005, 03:52:37 PM
[Q]jmh30 Wrote:
Maybe you mean Todd White's Clarkson?  Erik Cole didn't get there until 97-98.
[/q]
Young whippersnapper!  Nitpicking won't get you anything... well... but a bunch of... nits.

I forget things.  I blame mad cow.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: RichH on November 04, 2005, 04:28:43 PM
Good point! I hope I never get it. Hey! What about this? If you had the choice of being the top scientist in your field or getting mad cow disease what would it be?
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Josh '99 on November 04, 2005, 04:31:35 PM
[Q]Scersk '97 Wrote:
Young whippersnapper!  Nitpicking won't get you anything... well... but a bunch of... nits.

I forget things.  I blame mad cow.[/q]I think I'm going to have to make a point of it to make comments like that to Scersk more often now that I'm learning to appreciate it any time someone calls me "young".  :-D
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Ben Rocky '04 on November 04, 2005, 04:45:48 PM
Did they even have internet in dorms when you were on east hill?   B-]
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Beeeej on November 04, 2005, 04:50:16 PM
Wait, there are dorms now??

Beeeej
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Josh '99 on November 04, 2005, 04:52:13 PM
[Q]Beeeej Wrote:

 Wait, there are dorms now??[/q]No, there used to be dorms.  Now there are "residential colleges".
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: jtwcornell91 on November 04, 2005, 05:28:32 PM
[Q]JDeafv Wrote:
The CCHA and ECACHL columns didn’t mention the part about MSU players yelling obscenities and making crude sexual gestures towards sections A and B as they were getting off the ice.   [/q]

Including a guy in a suit, who I suspect was an assistant coach.

Does the archived all access video at include the post-game incidents?
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: ben03 on November 04, 2005, 05:31:33 PM
just some wide angle stuff but nothing of real substance.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Rich S on November 04, 2005, 06:38:17 PM
what game?
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Dafatone on November 04, 2005, 06:43:14 PM
I did stay a while after the loss, actually.  I guess I was so caught up in everything I didn't really pay attention to the bottles.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: Josh '99 on November 04, 2005, 07:15:25 PM
[Q]Rich S Wrote:
what game? [/q]The Cornell-MSU game you weren't at.  If you're going to call us on having been further removed from the Mark Morris situation than you were, then you're opening yourself up to being called on the same thing.

Here's one objective comparison that doesn't draw on anybody's tinted glasses:  Morris lost his job, Schafer got a one-game suspension.
Title: Re: Schafer Suspended One Game
Post by: JimHyla on November 05, 2005, 11:39:38 AM
[Q]LynahFaithfulS Wrote: redhair34--
I agree with your Ivy League comment too
[Q2]They didn't salute in the corner, they were at the center and facing the students.[/Q]

(and do ovals have corners?  ...sorry...i'm just happy it's friday...)LFS[/q]No, they don't. If you ever needed confirmation of that just talk to someone old enough B-] to remember the old Boston Arena. It really was more oval shaped, with the boards turning well before the goal line. Because of that it played alot differently, and we would have had to change our board style accordingly.