ELynah Forum

Sec A entrance to Lynah.  emails just went out, Gene announced on VBR.

Let the stampede begin.  :-O

Numbered wrist bands this year.  Not a bad idea, but branding would have worked too.

http://cornellbigred.collegesports.com/sports/m-hockey/corn-m-hockey-body.html

Of course, if you're reading this you're either too old, too far away, or too late (just kidding).

LGR.

Or already have your season tickets.  :-D

Beeeej

You had to rub it in, didn't you...:-P

Report from a grad student I know:  Within 20 minutes of the line announcement, they had processed 850 people.

If you had any idea how much we pay for seats in Section C, after paying $45 for the privilege of buying them in the first place, you wouldn't have the slighest jealous bone in your body.

Beeeej

Yeah, its all over...from what I have been told, the line was out of control, people were coming in from all sides, there was no line and it was generally ugly. Sounds as if copious amounts of facetimers could be making an appearance in Lynah this year  ::yark::

after hearing the VBR broadcast, I was outside section A in maybe 7 minutes of driving/walking; a giant, sweaty mass of people had formed at the bottom of the stairs. The line then went through lynah, into bartels and finally the ramin room. the wristband idea seems like a positive improvement, but my personal opinion is that "section A" as a location is possibly the stupidest i have seen or heard of. The stairs going into lynah allow for little or no natural crowd control. moreover, the CUPD jumped on the opportunity to tow as many cars as humanly possible. in short, a joke, but thats nothing new.

terrible, terrible job

those who were waiting in the line down the street got terrible numbers or didnt get any at all, and the best line numbers were given to the people who pushed through and cut.

awful display

I've gotta say that was the least safe environment I have ever seen up close.  There was a mob of over 1000 people right outside the doors and there was literally no way to move or breathe.  When they finally opened the door after a couple minutes, it actually got worse.  It was like being caught in the worst series of waves where you have absolutely no control of your footing or balance.  You just had to hope you would be pushed in the right direction.  The most telling part of it was that I was there with three buddies and we all got numbers in different 100's.  I sort of was pushed in the right direction and got #545 which would hopefully put me in A.  Regardless, I'll be trying to trade up to hopefully get back in B for a third straight year.  

The line was a complete mess, I was at the other side of bartels when it was announced a swarms of ppl were already there when I got there.  There was no crowd controll what so ever outside of lynah.  Ppl were shoving there way up the line.  By the time the doors opened there was probably 800+ students in a semicircle around the entrance with everyone pushing to be the first one in.
In general this was not a line but rather a mob at Lynah.  So far I have not talked to many ppl that have friends with line numbers close since everyone got lost in the mob.  I was lucky enough to get line number 320, but several friends right behind me got in the 700s+ and some got under the 100s.  This was a joke process by the Atheltics and the school and they should serious think about changing it.  
Sorry for my little rant but I think this was well deserve.  I personally want to see the school to cut all this dont hurt the academics crap and just have a message in August telling when and where tickets will be sold and let ppl line up whenever, and have a rule similar to Dukes Bball.  One person has to be in your spot at all times, besides that you are fine.

The pushing and shoving was out of control and for some reason on my side it seemed to help since I got a higher number then I thought I was going to get

Agreed, absolute disgrace on every level.  I actually thought last year's was really good and the crowd control was helped a lot by 1) the weird location and 2) the fact that one number got two tickets meaning there was less than half as many people

We got there a bit later than average due to not being able to wait on campus everynight for the annoucement to go out. When we got there there were probably three hundred people in front of us.

It seemed like no matter how many people showed up after us, the line didn't grow behind us. Cutting was rampant.  Half way through the police decided that the best way of fighting people pushing forward was to have the front of the line push back.  They didn't make this clear to the back of the line, so the front of the line smashed into the people in the middle that had no place to go. A girl ended up getting injured and EMS was called.

 At this point the police basically cut the line in two and physically forced the people around the girl to move back. Now all of a sudden the people that were nearest to the girl but in front of her were towards the front of the line, while those who had been just a few spots away (my group) were forced all the way to the back of the line.

At this point instead of 300 or less people in front of us, I'd say 400 or 500 were in front of us, and like 4 people behind us. Then at least two or three times the Lynah red shirt staff guy  "Scott" decided that our section was too close to the front and pushed us back again. My group was literally pushed to the end of the line four times, and we were being very calm and attempting to follow all rules. Guess what! We don't have tickets but people that got there after us certainly did.  

I don't want to sound like a whiney bitch, but come on... I've been a LOUD lynah faithful member for 4 years and this was the worst line setup in that time. It was like the athletic ticket office was surprised that 2000 people showed up all at once, again.

A silenced Lynah Faithful.

Tad

I would definitely agree with you there.  At first I thought 320 was  a bad number since last year I was in the 90s, but this would of been comparable to 160 last year which aint that bad.

This was absolutelly terrible. For one thing, some people clearly knew before the announcement on the radio. We were in the car in front of Mudd Hall and saw people sprinting past us but couldn't follow because we didn't know where to go. Had to wait for the announcement. Sprinted over to A in like 30 seconds but were already at the bottom of the stairs. Made the mistake of being orderly and staying in the natural line up the stairs. I know of people who jogged in from C-town, cut up the slope in front of the stairs and got 400 places in front of us.

I think it's clear that Athletics gave themselves away before the announcement. Considering how many people were all around Lynah there was a line before the announcement.

Gene should be dragged out on the street and shot.

Wow, some of the clowns that got high numbers make me want to throw up. Section B may actually need a training class to learn cheers. I hate Freshmen, and the fat bitch that elbowed me in the neck. For shame, Gene Nighman, FOR SHAME!

Yeah, agree with everything people have said.

This is my first time posting here but the display tonight warrants it. I came with a pretty big group and we're all evenly spaced from #40 to #1300. The doors outside Section A were an absolute disgrace. My friends are all bruised and when we finally left the Ramin room there were 5 or 6 people on the curb outside of Lynah waiting for an ambulance. Much more unsafe than the cars charging through that parking lot last year, which also scared me.

Once inside, things were calmer and the wristband system worked. If they had been prepared for the people rushing the Section A doors, things would have been calm. Instead, they took 10 minutes to even open the doors, letting the crowd swell around it and then it took another 10 minutes for the cops to get there and make any semblance of order.

Athletics is really going to hear it this year and they did a pretty good job of messing up the Lynah atmosphere. I've been in B both of my two years here and I'm #516 this year- probably will end up with a block in D. I knew things were screwed when I saw Ari 40 spots behind me.

VBR also did a good job tonight, for what its worth.

I'm off to write my email to Athletics and Gene. Hope everyone gets tickets and gets back safe.

[Q] For one thing, some people clearly knew before the announcement on the radio [/Q]

We were waiting outside Bartels for anything when the ushers entered the building and kicked students out. Then cop cars came by and barricaded the streets (a smart idea at least) and cleared people from Lynah. There were about 500 people at the front entrance to Bartels until someone started sprinting towards the football field. Needless to say, 95% of the crowd went with him. They realized nothing was going on and got back to the entrance of Bartels just as Gene was getting on the air. Then that whole crowd started sprinting to Section A as soon as it was announced.

Nobody was at the Section A doors prior to the radio announcement so I doubt it leaked. But people undoubtedly called their friends when they saw the ushers which gave groups a good 5-10 minutes to get to Bartels.

I hope that made sense.

I really dont agree with the line before he announced it.  About 1000+ ppl ran from all round campus around Barton, and then the announce came and those 1000 ppl ran back up to Lynah.  I had some ppl get lucky and get close to the front, but I think this

This was ridiculous. The only place they couldn't have made the line start should have been the EXACT EPICENTER of where hundreds of people were waiting. There was no funnel to make a line, there was no police control. It was very poorly thought out. I was on the right hand side of the line by the metal guardrail and there was a girl literally being crushed between the mob and the rail. A guy pulled her over after they got space, and she was crying.

Nobody got tickets near their friends. I thought the idea of this place was to let the most worthy fans get the best sections- it instead resulted in the people who most cut getting the best numbers. I hope many of us from B last year end up in D or worse and teach those kids there how to cheer- the people who got into B probably won't.

Section D is the new B :-D

Like we haven't heard that before.

I can attest that nobody was really standing around the section A doors.  My group was lucky enough to be hanging out in the parking lot, and yes, we did see the ushers go in, and Dave come out, but we still didn't move. And we didn't see anyone really mob toward the door until the announcement was actually made.

As soon as the announcement was made, it was sheer insanity.  Most of the people in my group were on the steps right in front of the door.  The way people mobbed around the door made it so that people in between the two railings were carried in through the doors, and people who were unlucky enough to be on the other sides of the railings were stuck and couldn't really get in.  The numbers in my group ranged from 5 to in the 270s, and we were all at least on the steps before the doors were opened.  

I don't think very many people got away without some sort of injury.  Since I'm very small I was litterally pushed up and carried through the door into Lynah, and there was nothing I could do.  One of the scariest experiences of my life.

I'm sure we'll hear many, many more horror stories.

Badly done, badly done.

I was on the right side of the door, by the rail, and I also saw people getting crushed.  I, being a less than well-built male, found it hard to breathe at times.  I had to stand on top of a bush in order to clear some room.  Luckily, a man to my right helped keep people from pushing forward and making the situation worse.  Seriously, even though I have a good number, I am disgusted by all the facetimers around me who do not even care about their fellow faithful.  Cornell athletics clearly did not think about our safety; otherwise, it would not have taken cops 15 minutes to arrive outside the doors.

Agreed, there were way too many people who managed to be complete arses and push and weave their way through toward the front, making it even worse for everyone and harder to breath.

This concept of surprising everyone has gotten absurd.  I understand that they want to make it fair to people who choose to stay in class all week.  As I understand, that was the problem with the scheduled Friday line format.  But the problems that have arisen by changing it far outway the problems that existed with that system.  If I had it my way, I would schedule the line formation for 4pm like they used to, let the line form whenever it does (be it Tuesday night or Friday morning, something they did not allow), and choose a weekend before prelims begin.

Tonight's exhibition also showed a complete lack of understanding by the ticket office as to the demand for these tickets.  Is anyone reading this surprised that 2000+ people showed up tonight?  I am pretty sure that the ticket office did not, or if they did, they have no idea how to manage an event of this magnitude.  Ten police officers may have been there... to manage thousands of people?  Why is there not a roped entry way?  Or an entryway that is not on a staircase, at least?  

Whatever the problems of the old line system, I do not remember people getting hurt.  Does anyone else?

How much do you pay for section c, out of curiousity?

Oh yeah, and one ticket per person is supposed alleviate what exactly?

[Q]mtmack25 Wrote:

 Oh yeah, and one ticket per person is supposed alleviate what exactly?[/q]

It's supposed to better satisfy high demand.

Great job. ::rolleyes::

[Q]mtmack25 Wrote:

 This concept of surprising everyone has gotten absurd.  I understand that they want to make it fair to people who choose to stay in class all week.  As I understand, that was the problem with the scheduled Friday line format.  But the problems that have arisen by changing it far outway the problems that existed with that system.  If I had it my way, I would schedule the line formation for 4pm like they used to, let the line form whenever it does (be it Tuesday night or Friday morning, something they did not allow), and choose a weekend before prelims begin.

Tonight's exhibition also showed a complete lack of understanding by the ticket office as to the demand for these tickets.  Is anyone reading this surprised that 2000+ people showed up tonight?  I am pretty sure that the ticket office did not, or if they did, they have no idea how to manage an event of this magnitude.  Ten police officers may have been there... to manage thousands of people?  Why is there not a roped entry way?  Or an entryway that is not on a staircase, at least?  

Whatever the problems of the old line system, I do not remember people getting hurt.  Does anyone else?[/q]

Tell people that tickets go on sale Sunday evening, let the line form mostly over the weekend, and get everyone out of there by Monday morning.

And no, I'm not at all surprised by the number of people that came.  I want to see their plan for this so I can rip it apart.  They clearly did not think this through.

The thing that really pisses me off right now after I got the number is that each person can hold up to 4 line numbers for line checks.  What the hell is this, if they are going to go through the trouble having each line number per person at least make everyone show up for their damn line checks.  The administration just does not make any sense at all.  They allow 100s of facetimers to get tickets, screw over the faithful, caused injury and seriously probably pissed off over 1000 ppl in the process.  Good going Cornell for the ppl that got line numbers I will see you in Ramin Room this weekend, hopefully they can at least get this right.

[Q]Alex Wrote:

 How much do you pay for section c, out of curiousity?[/q]

http://elf.elynah.com/read.php?1,67858,67858#msg-67858

It seems athletics will never realize they have to put a little more resources into this procedure.  They'd never pay for people to watch a form-when-you-want line, they were never able to enforce the old starts-at-4pm-friday line, and here they didn't have people to ensure an actual line formed after the announcement, and not a mob.

[Q]TCHL8842 Wrote:

 The thing that really pisses me off right now after I got the number is that each person can hold up to 4 line numbers for line checks.  What the hell is this, if they are going to go through the trouble having each line number per person at least make everyone show up for their damn line checks.  The administration just does not make any sense at all.  They allow 100s of facetimers to get tickets, screw over the faithful, caused injury and seriously probably pissed off over 1000 ppl in the process.  Good going Cornell for the ppl that got line numbers I will see you in Ramin Room this weekend, hopefully they can at least get this right.[/q]

Sadly the camping out has become a facetiming thing to do, hijacked by those in charge, and not what it should be, which is simply people staying there as long as they can to gaurantee as good seats as possible.

I'd just like to say that I have been on the opposite side of Lynah the past two years, Sections F and G, and there are plenty of people who know how to cheer there. B has the advantage of proximity to the band, which gives them their cues, but otherwise I think that every year for the first several games people are pretty bad. Personally I think that the best place for leading cheers is up in F, where your voice acoustically can carry to the most fellow faithful to respond. Also, if you recall, last year the Red scored most of their points in the 2nd period when the opposing goal is towards F and G. Basically I think that anywhere in Lynah is a great seat, so if you get seats you are golden.

[Q]French Rage Wrote:

 It seems athletics will never realize they have to put a little more resources into this procedure.  They'd never pay for people to watch a form-when-you-want line, they were never able to enforce the old starts-at-4pm-friday line, and here they didn't have people to ensure an actual line formed after the announcement, and not a mob.[/q]

Actually, I would wager that they fully realize the best way to reward the best fans, but are unable and/or unwilling to devote the necessary money/resources (e.g., paying the Athletics employees, paying the CUPD as necessary, probably liability as well).  This is probably the best system they can implement given the circumstances in or out of their control; however, they chose a truly poor location in which to execute the system.

Maybe someone should make a shift with "Lynah Faithful absent" in front and a "I got screwed over in the line" in the back as a parody of last year's t-shirt.

Then again, it may be that I'm just a bit bitter right now...

I like the idea.  Anyone with a spare photo of Gene Nighman?

After being a member of the Big Red Pep Band for 3 years, I decided to instead go for season tickets so I can enjoy all of the games my senior year.  I got line number 1120, and trust me when I say that wherever I sit I know all the cheers, songs, etc. I'm ecstatic to even get a line number.

[Q]The thing that really pisses me off right now after I got the number is that each person can hold up to 4 line numbers for line checks. What the hell is this, if they are going to go through the trouble having each line number per person at least make everyone show up for their damn line checks.[/Q]

You have to realize that there are people this weekend that have to do things that cannot be rescheduled - taking the LSAT on saturday for example.  I'm taking the GREs on Friday and have to drive an hour away, and there is no way that I can get back by 6.  

first time poster, long time troll

what a mess.  i listened to vbr in my studio in kennedy, sprinted and arrived at the mob within two minutes.  no organization, no safety, and no effort to weed out the facetimer.  after pushing and getting pushed in the mud at the bottom of the stairs for 40 minutes, i got through inside.  i'm fourth on the waiting list, which is as good as nothing.  michigan now has the best fan section.  the faithful will have no unity, no one will know the cheers, and the stands will be half empty most of the time.  a lot of my older friends who have had tickets every year didn't get a number either.  it's all a joke. at least now i have money to spend on nhl center ice.

Why don't you take it a bit further and say that tickets will go on sale at 9:00 AM on Tuesday, October 11th?  It's during fall break, so you won't have to worry about missing classes to go camp out, and it can also be a real line.  Once you show up at Athletics, you stay there.  You move, you get bumped out of line.

It may be a good idea, it may not be, but it's sure as hell a lot better than what just happened tonight.

[Q]Will Wrote:

 [Q2]French Rage Wrote:

 It seems athletics will never realize they have to put a little more resources into this procedure.  They'd never pay for people to watch a form-when-you-want line, they were never able to enforce the old starts-at-4pm-friday line, and here they didn't have people to ensure an actual line formed after the announcement, and not a mob.[/Q]
Actually, I would wager that they fully realize the best way to reward the best fans, but are unable and/or unwilling to devote the necessary money/resources (e.g., paying the Athletics employees, paying the CUPD as necessary, probably liability as well).  This is probably the best system they can implement given the circumstances in or out of their control; however, they chose a truly poor location in which to execute the system.[/q]

That's a better way of putting it, they know what it'll take but will never do it.

In theory (having graduated in '04) it seems this method is the best way other than the obvious let-people-line-up-whenever-they-want choice.  However, they still need to do work; specifically, it seems, when the line is announced, they need to ensure that there is a line and not a random mob.  Otherwise, they're right back to where the old (pre '04) method was at 3:30 on Friday afternoon.

In the real world, there's a concept called "accountability".  I wonder if we'll finally see that here.

Right.

I'm not jealous (I have season seats as well); I was just making a joke.

How much did you pay for C-seats?

In the real world there is a concept called lawsuits.  

If anyone did actually get injured, find a good lawyer and sue the Athletics Department, the University, and Gene Nighman.  If they realize that the cost of doing it wrong far exceeds the cost of doing it right, there may be some incentive to change.  

It is, after all, about the almighty greenback.

[Q]Jeff Hopkins '82 Wrote:

 In the real world there is a concept called lawsuits.  ...

It is, after all, about the almighty greenback.[/q]


Umm... no actually it is not about the money.

If Cornell were a truely financially motivated group, they would simply institue price rationing. Obviously, demand far outstrips supply here - so they could merely raise prices. I wager they could fetch around 500.00 for season tickets without risking any empty seats.

Obviously, the trick here is to find a system that accomplishes their goals. Most fans want that goal to be rewarding the most faithful fans. I think Cornell Athletic's goal is more like, "make it be a fair chance for any student to get tickets." It's gotten so bad, why not just institute a lottery? Then students would be even more upset.

Also, to all those people who think that cheering will be messed up - I think you far underestimate all the non-section B fans. They are dedicated and learn cheers as well. This years cheering will not be very different from last year  - though Section B might not stand out as well.

People are also making the assumption that the aggressive line cutters are the facetimers.  It may be that they are the most dedicated student fans.

Doug Murray would have cut. :-D

The solution to this seems blindingly obvious to me.  Make the entire student area general admission.  Open the doors 4 hours before game time -- a market-driven solution, in which time is money.

[Q]Trotsky Wrote:

 People are also making the assumption that the aggressive line cutters are the facetimers.  It may be that they are the most dedicated student fans.

Doug Murray would have cut.

The solution to this seems blindingly obvious to me.  Make the entire student area general admission.  Open the doors 4 hours before game time -- a market-driven solution, in which time is money.[/q]

But then people would have to *skip class* to get in line on Friday!!

And they would have to pay (if they are paid) ushers 4 more hours. I'm sure some of those ushers have day jobs.

I think making tickets general admission is a good idea, but not for distribution. Say that tickets are sold 8pm on Sunday and make the announcement where at 4pm on Friday. Have police monitor the line. Even if facetimers manage to get some tickets through this system, making their tickets GA and opening the doors a couple hours before gametime would put them in the least desirable student seats. Knowing that all tickets are GA would also cut down on the stampede for the initial ticket distribution.

[Q]Tub(a) Wrote:
But then people would have to *skip class* to get in line on Friday.[/q]

Exactly.  Opportunity cost.

No ushers.  Laissez faire.  It works so well in the other aspects of our republic.

Though we all know that this system did not work (at the very least, they should have been given out Saturday to eliminate facetimers), we now have section Bers all over to coordinate cheers.  Last year the cheers were weak in the other sections (I was a freshman in D); however, I also look forward to teaching all the pushers in B with me how to cheer correctly.  Let's make Lynah more than just section B, and have the entire student section voice their support.

[Q]Cisco Wrote:
Obviously, the trick here is to find a system that accomplishes their goals. Most fans want that goal to be rewarding the most faithful fans. I think Cornell Athletic's goal is more like, "make it be a fair chance for any student to get tickets." It's gotten so bad, why not just institute a lottery? Then students would be even more upset. [/q]If that's what they want, they could just as easily go back to the system that was in place when I was buying student tickets, where order forms were sent to every student at some point over the summer, you mailed them back as soon as you could, and everyone got assigned a line number (which I think was good for up to two tickets).  You could group together as many line numbers as you wanted with the priority of the worst line number.  Very orderly, quite random.  (Arguably not a whole lot more random than what was described last night, much more orderly, and I'm sure nobody ever had to call EMS as a result of that process.)

[Q]Tub(a) Wrote:
 But then people would have to *skip class* to get in line on Friday!![/q]

Don't you know true Faithful don't schedule class on Fridays?  It inhibits their ability to get to away games :-P

The lottery was also weighted so that the longer you had been at cornell (i.e. matriculation date), the better number you got. And, I believe you could get up to four tickets. There was one year (1997-1998??, 6th or 7th year of grad school), that i had #2 and was able to get 3 tickets. Ironically, the person ahead of me wanted the *exact*  same seats i wanted... Section D, row 11 seats 1-3. (We love the band, but just didn't want that close in section B).

I know how everyone is in favor of a line - sleep out for days. But as a grad student with two dependents (a dog and a thesis project that requires being in the lab doing experiments), I would not have been able to do that.

For those of you shut out of tickets... come to the everblades tourney in december... PLENTY of good seats available.

Rita

[Q]Tub(a) Wrote:

 [Q2]Trotsky Wrote:

 The solution to this seems blindingly obvious to me.  Make the entire student area general admission.  Open the doors 4 hours before game time -- a market-driven solution, in which time is money.[/Q]
But then people would have to *skip class* to get in line on Friday!!

And they would have to pay (if they are paid) ushers 4 more hours. I'm sure some of those ushers have day jobs.

I think making tickets general admission is a good idea, but not for distribution. Say that tickets are sold 8pm on Sunday and make the announcement where at 4pm on Friday. Have police monitor the line. Even if facetimers manage to get some tickets through this system, making their tickets GA and opening the doors a couple hours before gametime would put them in the least desirable student seats. Knowing that all tickets are GA would also cut down on the stampede for the initial ticket distribution.[/q]

You'd then have a mini-version of this every weekend, with the need to monitor the line, etc.  Hopefully I'm wrong on this.

There's a lot to be angry about this year.  I suspect we can't expect athletics ever to get this right.  Fortunately no one was badly maimed or worse, which isn't unthinkable.  There's plenty of precedent for precisely that happening in these situations, most notably the Hillsborough disaster in 1989:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/15/newsid_2491000/2491195.stm

Take a look at the last two paragraphs in the above link:

"Some fans have said bad ticket allocation contributed to the disaster.

"Liverpool has far more supporters than Nottingham Forest but were given 6,000 fewer tickets and allocated the smaller Leppings Lane stand."

There are less fair and more fair ways to distribute tickets, but batting these ideas around ignores the fact that we're looking at a bear trying to figure out how to fit into a rabbit warren.  There's really only one long-term, satisfactory solution to this.  It's an unpopular one with a lot of the Lynah faithful, but when students are risking injury to get tickets, I think a line has been crossed that makes this the only realistic solution.

Hint:  For those of you who went to Minnesota last spring, how'd you like their rink?

Well, while I'd love to, I had time to spare, not plane and hotel fare.

[Q]ninian '72 Wrote:
Hint:  For those of you who went to Minnesota last spring, how'd you like their rink?
[/q]

I know what you're getting at, but I like Lynah better.  Besides the obvious pro-Cornell aspect of Lynah that isn't seen at Mariucci, and the fact that we probably couldn't get 10000 fans into Ithaca on that regular a basis, I like my seats above the glass and close to the ice.  It's kinda hard to do that in most modern rinks.  It took me a really long time to adjust, and even then I felt miles away from a lot of the action.  (It didn't help that the play was often on the other end of the rink.)  They had a really nice concourse, though - plenty of space to walk around and very little of the crowding you see at Lynah between periods/at the end of the game.

[Q]jmh30 Wrote:
...I'm sure nobody ever had to call EMS as a result of that process.[/q]

Ow! Paper cut!

10K is an obvious stretch, but it would be interesting to know how many students actually showed up for the stampede.  If athletics actually passed out a number to each of the students who showed, regardless of Lynah's capacity, it would be a good way to measure the potential student fanbase/market for tickets that could then be used for some intelligent planning, for a change.

[Q]canuck26 Wrote:

 Though we all know that this system did not work (at the very least, they should have been given out Saturday to eliminate facetimers), we now have section Bers all over to coordinate cheers.  Last year the cheers were weak in the other sections (I was a freshman in D); however, I also look forward to teaching all the pushers in B with me how to cheer correctly.  Let's make Lynah more than just section B, and have the entire student section voice their support.[/q]

The sentiment and spirit (of coordinating and passing down cheers) should remain, but just be careful about how you're perceived.  There's nothing more offensive to a fan than another fan who think it's his domain to "teach" others how to "cheer correctly."

The first thing I would like to know is at what point this ever sounded like a good idea to Nighman when they were deciding on a line location. There was no safe way to cram thousands of people through that doorway without some sort of funneling of a line. I was in Boston last year when the Sox won the Series and it was like a wine and cheese party compared to that "line" last night. The cops didn't arrive until well after the mob formed and once they were there they didn't do a whole lot to help the situation. In fact they actually stopped everyone, except those coming from the middle, from moving at all. Needless to say, I was cut off from my friends, who are up to 600 line numbers away now. I'm pretty sure the first paragraph of our line numbers sheet states that this process was to help friends sit together, oops. Not to mention the email also states cutting or disruptive behavoir would result in your not getting a line number, good thing they had people there to watch out for that.

Two years ago the line resembled the old way of camping out for a week. Yes, there was cutting, but nothing to the extent I saw last night. Last year was a random location with poorly explained rules, but at least there was no cutting, shoving, etc. There was an orderly aspect to last years line numbers, this job seemed thrown together. You almost would think any location would have been better than a single door leading into the rink. The ticket office took a giant step backwards this year.  ::bang::

The police were not notified in advance of when or where the line was set to take place because the ticket office did not want the information leaked.  Dumb.  The staff for the "event," including those taking your ID information once you got an armband were also not notified terribly far in advance for the same reason, resulting in them having to set tables up themselves right as people were streaming into line and the ensuing clusterf---.  Also dumb.  Clearly the priority for this event was on secrecy and not on common sense.

In Gene's favor, I have heard that it is possible the mode of operation for this mess was not his idea, though on the other hand he had ultimate control over whether it would happen this way or not and could have vetoed it.  In any case he will inevitably take the fall for how badly it turned out, whether or not he deserves to.

[Q]oceanst41 Wrote:

Two years ago the line resembled the old way of camping out for a week. Yes, there was cutting, but nothing to the extent I saw last night. Last year was a random location with poorly explained rules, but at least there was no cutting, shoving, etc. There was an orderly aspect to last years line numbers, this job seemed thrown together. You almost would think any location would have been better than a single door leading into the rink. The ticket office took a giant step backwards this year.  [/q]

The problem with two years ago is while it resembled camping out for a week, techinically it wasn't, and they kept breaking up lines until it got to big for them to break up, and those who took it at face value that no line would form before 4 arrived to an 800 person line.  The problem was that it simply makes no sense to let people know where the line is but tell them they can't line up until a certain time.  There are two things you can do to fix that: a) dont tell people when they can start lining up or b) dont tell people where the line is until you want it to be started.  They'll never go for A, or else they would have by now.  It seems that B, this year and last year, has the potential to be better than the pre-04 line, but they have to put effort into it to get it right.  Specifically, when the line forms, they have to ensure it becomes an actual line, not a mob.

[Q]BCrespi Wrote:

 Well, while I'd love to, I had time to spare, not plane and hotel fare.[/q]

Two words: road trip
::nut:: ;-)

[Q]French Rage Wrote:

 [Q2]oceanst41 Wrote:

Two years ago the line resembled the old way of camping out for a week. Yes, there was cutting, but nothing to the extent I saw last night. Last year was a random location with poorly explained rules, but at least there was no cutting, shoving, etc. There was an orderly aspect to last years line numbers, this job seemed thrown together. You almost would think any location would have been better than a single door leading into the rink. The ticket office took a giant step backwards this year.  [/Q]
The problem with two years ago is while it resembled camping out for a week, techinically it wasn't, and they kept breaking up lines until it got to big for them to break up, and those who took it at face value that no line would form before 4 arrived to an 800 person line.  The problem was that it simply makes no sense to let people know where the line is but tell them they can't line up until a certain time.  There are two things you can do to fix that: a) dont tell people when they can start lining up or b) dont tell people where the line is until you want it to be started.  They'll never go for A, or else they would have by now.  It seems that B, this year and last year, has the potential to be better than the pre-04 line, but they have to put effort into it to get it right.  Specifically, when the line forms, they have to ensure it becomes an actual line, not a mob.[/q]



It seems to me that this could be easily solved by eliminating the first press release. If they just announce the location of the line without saying they will announce it on a specific day, the news will get out to the majority of people a lot more slowly. Yes, this system might end up being called "unfair" but it really isn't. Everyone has the same ability to check the website every day. Some people are actually crazy enough to check it every hour every day once the time is approaching. This would actually reward the biggest fans which at some point in this process was actually supposed to be the goal.

[Q]Jacob '06 Wrote:


It seems to me that this could be easily solved by eliminating the first press release. If they just announce the location of the line without saying they will announce it on a specific day, the news will get out to the majority of people a lot more slowly. Yes, this system might end up being called "unfair" but it really isn't. Everyone has the same ability to check the website every day. Some people are actually crazy enough to check it every hour every day once the time is approaching. This would actually reward the biggest fans which at some point in this process was actually supposed to be the goal.[/q]

Sorry, it would never fly.  Too logical.

Nighman's Law states that every announcement must have an equal and utterly pointless pre-announcement, to signal the coming of the announcement.  

(Oh, and bonus points if said pre-announcement increases the possibility of EMS and ambulance involvment.)

Or instead of saying line numbers will be given away sometime this week, just say that there will be an announcement sometime in September. This would likely prevent the 'preline like' groups forming all over campus and waiting out each night. Not all of the faithful had the free time during a prelim week to sit around Lynah waiting for the call to go out. Either say no preline and enforce it, or allow a preline.  Don't do this middle ground that allows for this crazy mob to build.

Just use the website.  Give out the numbers online, giving a number and a password for each valid ID, and give that person some small amount of time (1 or 2 hrs) to report to the camp out location.  

I also liked the early '80s approach of separate numbers for grads, seniors, juniors, and the rest.  This was done by matriculation date (really ID sequence number) , so only grad students that were Cornell undergrads were at the head of the list.

Just curious:
How many people have written / are writing letters to the Daily Sun? Seems like a public outcry about the retardedness of this year's scheme would be the first step to getting something rational to happen next year.

They're lucky nobody died. Seriously.

[Q]KP '06 Wrote:

 Just curious:
How many people have written / are writing letters to the Daily Sun? Seems like a public outcry about the retardedness of this year's scheme would be the first step to getting something rational to happen next year.

They're lucky nobody died. Seriously.[/q]

Want to get real attention? CC it to the office of the president. Although, if you do so, just realize that this easily could result in going back to the lottery system that Schafer abolished after 99 (my freshman year). Of course, at least that rewarded seniority. While a good line, or even a mediocre line, is better than a lottery. A lottery that at least rewards seniority (if not fandom, preferably both) may be better than a bloody, random mob.

From what I understand, the official athletics policy on hate mail for this debacle is "do not respond, simply forward on to Anita Brenner."  Based on my previous experiences with Anita, this translates to: No attention will be given to your complaints.  At all.

I think sending letters to the Sun won't serve much of a purpous.  I plan on sending letters to much of the Athletic department, Schafer, the president, etc.  Schafer has made it clear that he wants the most deserving fans to get tickets--I think the more he hears from us that this isn't happening the more likely he will try to use whatever pull he has regarding the ticket process to ensure the process is improved next year.

[Q]redhair34 Wrote:

 I think sending letters to the Sun won't serve much of a purpous.  I plan on sending letters to much of the Athletic department, Schafer, the president, etc.  Schafer has made it clear that he wants the most deserving fans to get tickets--I think the more he hears from us that this isn't happening the more likely he will try to use whatever pull he has regarding the ticket process to ensure the process is improved next year. [/q]
I agree that trying to get Schafer involved is the best way to effect real change.  Whether he'll go along is a different story, but I hope so.

[Q]Section A Banshee Wrote:

 From what I understand, the official athletics policy on hate mail for this debacle is "do not respond, simply forward on to Anita Brenner."  Based on my previous experiences with Anita, this translates to: No attention will be given to your complaints.  At all.[/q]

But that won't stop her from jumping to wild conclusions and complaining to you and expecting results.

My experiences with her were all take and no give on her behalf. Par for the course with cornell athletics administrators.

[Q]Chris '03 Wrote:

 [Q2]Section A Banshee Wrote:

 From what I understand, the official athletics policy on hate mail for this debacle is "do not respond, simply forward on to Anita Brenner."  Based on my previous experiences with Anita, this translates to: No attention will be given to your complaints.  At all.[/Q]
But that won't stop her from jumping to wild conclusions and complaining to you and expecting results.

My experiences with her were all take and no give on her behalf. Par for the course with cornell athletics administrators. [/q]
I hear this all stems from their utterly inept HR department, and Andy Noel's tendency to play favorites with fellow wrestlers at the expense of competent staff.

"Section B in exile" on the front with "Fire Gene Nighman" on the back

[Q]bjybjy Wrote:

 Or instead of saying line numbers will be given away sometime this week, just say that there will be an announcement sometime in September. This would likely prevent the 'preline like' groups forming all over campus and waiting out each night. Not all of the faithful had the free time during a prelim week to sit around Lynah waiting for the call to go out. Either say no preline and enforce it, or allow a preline.  Don't do this middle ground that allows for this crazy mob to build.[/q]

The idea of a less permeating knowledge of the announcement seems like a good idea.  From what I've seen on the board, it seems they were way overadvertising everything, making it too easy for passive fans to get involved.  Give a larger time period so only the hardcore fans are prepared the whole time, limit the sources of the announcement, and limit the coverage its given.

"fire gene nighman" is the wrong message...

I've talked to Gene Nighman before...he's not a "bad" guy and for all we know this might not even have been his idea this year.  Directing anger/hate at him is counterproductive.  Instead of criticizing/blaming him, we should offer constructive criticism and do everything we can to make the process better in the future.  I've heard before on this board that "we've been there done that with athletics" instead of defering to this old excuse why don't we come up with some sort of concerted effort to magnify our message.  We could start a petition or refuse to wait inside Ramin room on fri/sat and intstead wait together with our "Lynah Faithful" shirts (easiest indication of true faithful would be previous ticket ownership signified by wearing our shirts) outside Bartels to demonstrate our displeasure for the process and the neglect of the true faithful.  These sorts of actions would likely get press coverage and the attention of the administration and thus might be the impetus for some positive change.

The buck stops at Gene Nighman.  His leadership resulted in a system which does little to reward dedicated fans, and worse, seriously endangered the safety of hundreds of fans.  Those in charge of this debacle do not posess the common sense to work at an Ivy League institution.

[Q]redhair34 Wrote:

... get press coverage and the attention of the administration and thus might be the impetus for some positive change.[/q]

My thoughts exactly.

I'm concerned that Schafer has more important things to be worried about, a few short weeks before the start of the season.

Do you think Gene Nighman can run the ticket procedure anyway he wants?  He has to answer to his superiors and I am willing to bet they ok'd or helped plan this year's disaster.  Even if they did "fire" Gene Nighman, what makes you think the next person in his position would do any better?  What makes you think anyone would want to step into his shoes and deal with the huge controversy surrounding a ticket allocation process that cannot be perfected and will never please everyone?

The ticket line procedure was vetted by all sorts of campus departments and organizations, including (I believe) the Student Assembly. I wasn't there to witness the carnage, but it sounds like it was handled poorly by those directly responsible for line organization and supervision (states Captain Obvious).

I think anyone who's ever had any experience with the Cornell ticket office knows that Gene and his minions are no Yodas of ticket distribution and management. Blame whomever you want, write all the angry letters you want, but really, the root of the problem is that adults are willing to act like complete animals and trample one another for a good seat/status/whatever. Seriously, if  "Those in charge of this debacle do not posess [sic] the common sense to work at an Ivy League institution," then what about the hundreds of people willing to injure their fellow students in this debacle? Did they display the common sense one should possess to attend an Ivy League institution?  Are they off the hook because big bad Athletics forced them into this system? No. The ticket distribution was managed poorly, but these people chose to act in a disorderly manner.

The university is not going to authorize a system that implies it's ok to skip class (the wait as long as you want system Duke employs), and I highly doubt, especially after this, that they'd go for a system like GA that may risk a stampede. I'd put money on a mail-in student season ticket form, much like they had through 99-00.

i dont believe duke actually requires you to skip class, just that there is at least 1 person at all times within the tent.  I dont think its very hard to find a group of friends where there is at least 1 person at any given time that is not scheduled for class.

The process can't be perfect, but what we saw last night wasn't even approaching adequate.  

Gene Nighman is the Director of Ticketing, this plan was his responsibility.  If the higher-ups ok'ed this, they should be fired too.  Does a fan need to die before somebody is held accountable?

Regarding Gene's character and his responsibility for the Ticket Line plans:

http://www.cornellsun.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/09/29/415a4dbdcb4e9

Beeeej

Yes, the plan was ultimately, but not solely, Gene's responsibility, but the fans/facetimers/stampeding water buffaloes in dirty white frat caps have no one to blame for their behavior but themselves.

I'm not excusing Gene's implication in this b.s., I'm just trying to explain to people who might not know how these things work that it's not just Gene sitting in his office concocting some ticket distribution plot.

And if you're going to say that all the higher ups who ok'd this should be fired, what should happen to the students who were trampling each other? After all, they're supposed to be adults capable of rational thought and decision making.

[Q]redhair34 Wrote: I think sending letters to the Sun won't serve much of a purpous. [/q]

Well, writing a letter to the Sun (in the form of an open letter to Charlie Moore '51, who was AD at the time) after the Schoellkopf debacle in '91 is what got me invited to the "round table discussion" that helped shape what they did in '92 - which frankly wasn't much better, but at least people didn't get hurt.

Beeeej

Trying to get Schafer involved in anything besides coaching the hockey team right now is an extremely bad idea.  Ask him to get involved in May if you want.

Beeeej

I think the assumption that Schafer reading several constructive letters from the faithful about how the ticket line that he envisioned failed to come close to fulfilling it's stated purpose, would be too mentally and physically taxing on him and could possibly compromise his concentration on the team and the upcoming season, drastically underestimates Schafer's focus and drive.  My point in suggesting we send letters to him isn't to get him involved hands on in the planning process.  Rather my aim is to encourage him to hold Athletics accountable or voice his opinion and use his pull to improve the process.  He was able to do it in 95 (ish); I have not doubt he could make it happen again.

In that case...maybe some of us should swallow our pride and write to the Sun

What if Schafer's opinion is that the students obviously couldn't handle themselves in any of the recent line incarnations and they should be held accountable for acting like animals this time, so the only option is to go back to a mail-in process?

Seriously, don't write to him.  

[Q]redhair34 Wrote: I think the assumption that Schafer reading several constructive letters from the faithful about how the ticket line that he envisioned failed to come close to fulfilling it's stated purpose, would be too mentally and physically taxing on him and could possibly compromise his concentration on the team and the upcoming season, drastically underestimates Schafer's focus and drive.[/q]

I think so, too.  Luckily, it has absolutely nothing to do with I said.

I'm saying you should get your own priorities straight as far as Schafer is concerned.  Just because you're angry right now doesn't mean contacting the head coach of the hockey team about it right now is the right thing to do.

Gene and the Athletics Misfits will still be there in May, and there will still be plenty of time to come up with plans for a better ticket sales process.  Schafer has limited time, not limited brains or steam.  Let him spend it on what he's supposed to be spending it on.

Beeeej

[Q]Jerseygirl Wrote:

 What if Schafer's opinion is that the students obviously couldn't handle themselves in any of the recent line incarnations and they should be held accountable for acting like animals this time, so the only option is to go back to a mail-in process?

Seriously, don't write to him.[/q]

You're wrong to dignify this year's process as a line. A mob of pushing and shoving is hardly a line. If this year's "line incarnation" were an actual line, there'd be less of an issue. There is a middle ground between a mob of angry frat boys and a lottery. It's called a line. All the talk of academics is hogwash because if you annoucned sale to begin on a sunday night (or even early on a monday morning) or at the end of fall break, you wouldn't run into that as an issue for vast majority of people. And if we keep throwing around students acting like adults (an idea i'm not sure i buy) then they can make the choice to skip class to wait in line. God knows students skip class for an assortment of dumber reasons.

This isn't a line, it's survival of the fittest lottery followed by a mandatory waiting period. THe waiting period is more like the waiting period to buy a gun than a line. It's no wonder a system designed by wrestlers makes pushing, shoving, and trampling the desired conduct to achieve success.

[Q]Jerseygirl Wrote:

And if you're going to say that all the higher ups who ok'd this should be fired, what should happen to the students who were trampling each other? After all, they're supposed to be adults capable of rational thought and decision making.[/q]

Obviously, the answer is to give me all the tickets and let me distribute them as I see fit. :-D

[Q]Chris '03 Wrote:

 [Q2]Jerseygirl Wrote:

 What if Schafer's opinion is that the students obviously couldn't handle themselves in any of the recent line incarnations and they should be held accountable for acting like animals this time, so the only option is to go back to a mail-in process?

Seriously, don't write to him.[/Q]
You're wrong to dignify this year's process as a line. A mob of pushing and shoving is hardly a line. If this year's "line incarnation" were an actual line, there'd be less of an issue. There is a middle ground between a mob of angry frat boys and a lottery. It's called a line. All the talk of academics is hogwash because if you annoucned sale to begin on a sunday night (or even early on a monday morning) or at the end of fall break, you wouldn't run into that as an issue for vast majority of people. And if we keep throwing around students acting like adults (an idea i'm not sure i buy) then they can make the choice to skip class to wait in line. God knows students skip class for an assortment of dumber reasons.

This isn't a line, it's survival of the fittest lottery followed by a mandatory waiting period. THe waiting period is more like the waiting period to buy a gun than a line. It's no wonder a system designed by wrestlers makes pushing, shoving, and trampling the desired conduct to achieve success. [/q]

Wednesday morning after Fall Break, say 6am, would seem to be a great time that wouldn't interfere with academics and would allow the most dedicated to get tickets by camping out as early as they wanted.

Sorry, Chris '03. College students, assuming they're of normal college age are adults, and should be held accountable for their behavior as such. If they're incapable of keeping their shit together, they should answer for that.

I never said this "line" idea was a good one, and I believe I referred to it as a debacle roughly twice as often as I called it a line, just so we're clear with the reading comprehension. My point is that the powers that be or whatever don't deserve all of the blame for what happened. It's really not as simple as Gene fucking up and deserving to be fired for the ensuing mob. I say this as someone who has put in a lot of time as both a Cornell hockey fan and a Cornell Athletics student employee. I see the fans' perspectives, and am also familiar with the bureaucracy behind what happened with the "line"/mob/debacle/semantic differentiation for what we know I'm referencing.

There's more I want to say, but. Bedtime.

Sorry, stampedes have occured in the past that were caused by adults -- normal adults.  Even some related to sports:  reference Iran soccer match last year.  The problem is that it is basic human instinct to compete when forced to.  This year, a select few decided to push their way up front, which resulted in everybody pushing in order to keep everyone else back.  The "adult" theory does not hold up because I have yet to see any difference between adults and children in this situation as observed in real world scenarios.

[Q]Jerseygirl Wrote:

 Sorry, Chris '03. College students, assuming they're of normal college age  are  adults, and should be held accountable for their behavior as such. If they're incapable of keeping their shit together, they should answer for that.

I never said this "line" idea was a good one, and I believe I referred to it as a debacle roughly twice as often as I called it a line, just so we're clear with the reading comprehension. My point is that the powers that be or whatever don't deserve all of the blame for what happened. It's really not as simple as Gene fucking up and deserving to be fired for the ensuing mob. I say this as someone who has put in a lot of time as both a Cornell hockey fan and a Cornell Athletics student employee. I see the fans' perspectives, and am also familiar with the bureaucracy behind what happened with the "line"/mob/debacle/semantic differentiation for what we know I'm referencing.

There's more I want to say, but. Bedtime.[/q]

Sure according to their birth certificates most college students are adults in the strictest of senses, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that a good number of them are incapable of acting like adults. The issue of how college students are treated, their sense of entitlement, and their general superiority complex is for antother day. My point was simply to note that you can't boil this down to a, "god, can't these folks just act like adults?" conversation.

As for the alleged line semantics, I never said it was all gene's fault. I never really said it was anyone's fault. I just took issue with you calling it a line because it wasn't a line. It's more than semantics, it's an important distinction to make before suggesting that this year is evidence that "lines" don't work. Your argument was that if you didn't like the line this year and complain to schafer, the future is a lottery because students can't handle themselves. I simply counter that it's not so black and white. This year was not a line but a mob. A line can still exist between the extremes of mob and lottery. The most common sense approach is probably what Grant suggested. Sell tickets at 6am the wednesday after fall break. Students can line up outside the ticket office whenever the mood should strike and it won't substantially interfere with class. (If you went a step further and created a modified GA system, there'd be less concern. By modified GA, I'd suggest breaking the current sections into 2 blocks of seven rows or three blocks of 5, 5, and 4. As such when you picked your seat, you be picking section b lower instead of section b row 2 seat 2 or section d middle or e upper, etc. This would create a) an incentive to wait in line b) an incentive to show up on time to games to get your preferred seat and c) it would mitigate the bull rush when the doors open with everyone trying to get thier seats in the totlaly GA student section. Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems like it might help.)

I would like to add though, that I agree with your conclusion that writing to Schafer at this point in time won't solve a damn thing. It would probably be wiser to send concerns to him after the season has concluded, emotions have cooled, and there is still ample time to consider constructive solutions to the problem for next year. Short of saying, "do over" there's no turning back for this season's process and Schafer has other things to worry about.

If anyone is really interested in change and not just emotional/bitter complaint spend some time compiling the ticket policies at other schools, see what you find, and present rational ideas to athletics (schafer, gene, brenner, noel, etc.). Anything said at this point probably falls on deaf ears, and simply saying "anything is better than this" will not get anything accomplished. Of course it may help you if you're a wrestler. The word or a wrestler trumps all in athletics...

Yes, I do not intend on "telling" them, rather i would like to "show" them how to cheer.  This is said in the most positive light.  I do not intend to be an expert, instead just a confident fan who is proud to voice his support.

[Q]Jerseygirl Wrote:

the root of the problem is that adults are willing to act like complete animals and trample one another for a good seat/status/whatever.

I highly doubt, especially after this, that they'd go for a system like GA that may risk a stampede [/q]

Your analysis of the "root of the problem" couldn't be much further from the truth.  I'm too tired to respond now so I guess I'll wait till tomorrow.  

Maybe you could humor me in the meantime by explaining why a General Admission policy would risk a stampede?

[Q]Beeeej Wrote:

 Schafer has limited time, not limited brains or steam.  Let him spend it on what he's supposed to be spending it on.

Beeeej[/q]

I agree.  That's why I've already written my letter but have yet to send it.  I wanted to get my thoughts and recollection of last nights events down on paper while they are still fresh in my mind.

Well, now, that's a fine idea.

And if you choose e-mail, most e-mail programs will let you "stop-queue" an e-mail to be sent at a later date.

Beeeej

[Q]redhair34 Wrote:

 [Q2]Jerseygirl Wrote:

the root of the problem is that adults are willing to act like complete animals and trample one another for a good seat/status/whatever.

I highly doubt, especially after this, that they'd go for a system like GA that may risk a stampede [/Q]
Your analysis of the "root of the problem" couldn't be much further from the truth.  I'm too tired to respond now so I guess I'll wait till tomorrow.  

Maybe you could humor me in the meantime by explaining why a General Admission policy would risk a stampede?[/q]

Because the university isn't going to spring for Lynah Rink crowd control for an indefinite amount of time...say they choose to open the rink an hour before the game. I'd bet there will be at least some games -- not every game -- but some games where people will be trying to jockey for position and race to the most desired seats, and there will be pushing, shoving, etc.

Athletics was really poorly prepared for Monday night. They had an idea of what they were going to get and somehow thought Gene and a couple CUPD's would be able to keep things under control. NOT knowing what to expect each week, I doubt they'd trust the lovable (?) but partly elderly ushers to keep things under control, especially now that students have demonstrated how they're willing to behave in order to get a desirable seat.

I'm well aware of how crowds make "normal" adults go absolutely batshit and behave in socially deviant ways. I've seen soccer riots and watched fans "celebrate" their teams'  world championships by setting people's cars on fire.

I just don't understand why no one else seems to think these people trampling each other should be held responsible while they're calling for Athletics to be held responsible. Or if they do think so, why they're not saying it. The setup for this year's ticket distribution didn't encourage calm, compliant behavior, but the students still chose to act the way they did and should be held accountable for that. I am a huge fan of personal responsibility.

I don't think this year's "line" will serve as an example of why lines at Cornell don't work, but I do think it's the cherry on top of a big "people have been cutting every line we're tried to form since we went back to having them" sundae.

I kind of like the modified GA idea, but me liking it means nothing, of course. I don't know what the work schedule is like for university workers over fall break, but I can't imagine anyone would be too thrilled to give up their vacation to hover over a bunch of camping students. Remember, people have lives, even if you choose for one long weekend not to.*

*Believe me, I've dorked it out for sports in ways I am totally unwilling to admit, so that's as much a swipe at myself as it is at anyone else.

[Q]Jerseygirl Wrote:I don't know what the work schedule is like for university workers over fall break, but I can't imagine anyone would be too thrilled to give up their vacation to hover over a bunch of camping students. Remember, people have lives, even if you choose for one long weekend not to.[/q]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:  I would be willing to take a couple of days off every single year to help police the student season ticket line as an alumni volunteer if Cornell were willing to allow a Duke-style line.  And I doubt I'm the only one.

Just imagine how fun it would be to bore the hell out of the young'uns with stories of what it was like when we waited on line.  ::snore::

Beeeej

[Q]Jerseygirl Wrote:

I kind of like the modified GA idea, but me liking it means nothing, of course. I don't know what the work schedule is like for university workers over fall break, but I can't imagine anyone would be too thrilled to give up their vacation to hover over a bunch of camping students.[/q]

Campus staff doesn't get fall break. Although I'm sure if someone wanted to take a couple days off, their boss wouldn't be likely to object due to reduced needs. But as someone who worked for CIT for several years, full time staff (and any students who remained in town) continued to roll over Fall Break.

[Q]DeltaOne81 Wrote:

 [Q2]Jerseygirl Wrote:

I kind of like the modified GA idea, but me liking it means nothing, of course. I don't know what the work schedule is like for university workers over fall break, but I can't imagine anyone would be too thrilled to give up their vacation to hover over a bunch of camping students.[/Q]
Campus staff doesn't get fall break. Although I'm sure if someone wanted to take a couple days off, their boss wouldn't be likely to object due to reduced needs. But as someone who worked for CIT for several years, full time staff (and any students who remained in town) continued to roll over Fall Break.[/q]

Although the one thing I recall from the one Fall Break I was in town for was that the dining halls were closed.

If you mean you'd help out in patrolling / policing / calming the line  ... Cornell used campus affinity groups in the early post-Harkness era when the line formed, and slept, in Barton Hall. The group that offered to help out, such as a fraternity, of course passed along the line-up time to their fraternity brothers, girlfriends, and non-Greek friends, giving a couple hundred people an unfair advantage in being at the very head of the line. But nobody got trampled. And it was over the weekend.

Maybe as an alum you'd be less likely to give away the time and place.

There's got to be a better way, because Cornell seems to have discovered the worse ways.

So...  mac&cheese, hot dogs, Ramen noodles, pizza...  Other than freshmen, how many people do closed dining halls affect?

[Q]Chris '03 Wrote:

 
If anyone is really interested in change and not just emotional/bitter complaint spend some time compiling the ticket policies at other schools...[/q]

Excellent idea.  One less than ideal option, which appears no worse than other ideas presented over the years, is to allocate some seats to split season packages.  Both Colorado and Michigan have used this strategy from time to time when demand for football tickets exceeded capacity.  Packages can be divied out by line number, on-line, or lottery.  Whoever was first in line, first to sign up on-line, whatever, would have the option to buy either a full or partial season package.  Those further down the queue would have their options reduced accordingly.  If any split season packages remained after everyone had had the option to purchase a package, then those with partial season packages would have the opportunity to purchase tickets for the missing half of the season.

The tricky part obviously would be to identify how to split full- and split-season packages, so that everyone who wants to attend would have the opportunity to do so.  Selling tickets this way would mean that no Lynah faithful would be left totally out in the cold and would eliminate the craziness associated with the current all-or-nothing approach.  It also helps allocate a scarce commodity more fairly.  I suppose you could argue that this would also make it easier for facetimers to get tickets, but seems a worthwhile price to pay if it ensures that everyone who truly want to attend will have some good opportunities to do so.  If you can't/won't provide enough seats to meet demand, then maybe creating more, smaller slices from a fixed pie might be a better way to do this.

FWIW, when they did this at Michigan, it was intended as only a temporary solution until they could build a few more rows onto the top of the Big House to accommodate ca. 5000 additional fans.

[Q]Beeeej Wrote:
Well, writing a letter to the Sun (in the form of an open letter to Charlie Moore '51, who was AD at the time) after the Schoellkopf debacle in '91 is what got me invited to the "round table discussion" that helped shape what they did in '92 - which frankly wasn't much better, but at least people didn't get hurt.
[/q]

Beeeej, Beeeeej, Beeeeeej,

Even I know that Laing Kennedy ('63) was the athletic director in '91.  Crazy Charlie Moore ('51) didn't become atheltic director until my junior year, with one of his first actions being to fire McCutcheon.

As one section of a certain song told me my freshman year (when you were the band's announcer), "Laing Kennedy" was a certain part of the anatomy.  I believe he also lived in a bathroom stall.

[Q]Scersk '97 Wrote:
 [Q2]Beeeej Wrote:Well, writing a letter to the Sun (in the form of an open letter to Charlie Moore '51, who was AD at the time) after the Schoellkopf debacle in '91 is what got me invited to the "round table discussion" that helped shape what they did in '92 - which frankly wasn't much better, but at least people didn't get hurt.
[/Q]
Even I know that Laing Kennedy ('63) was the athletic director in '91.  Crazy Charlie Moore ('51) didn't become atheltic director until my junior year, with one of his first actions being to fire McCutcheon.

As one section of a certain song told me my freshman year (when you were the band's announcer), "Laing Kennedy" was a certain part of the anatomy.  I believe he also lived in a bathroom stall.
[/q]

You're so right, Scersk - it's all just another sign of how old I'm getting and how this stuff blends together after a while.

I still smile when I think of the Cornell Lunatic's parody of Cornell Athletics' policies, e.g.,  "All cheers must contain praise for Laing Kennedy."  The only thing better in that Cornell hockey program parody they published was the full-page ad spoof, a photo of Paula Abdul with the caption "Eat Me at Manos."

Beeeej

[Q]cth95 Wrote:

 So...  mac&cheese, hot dogs, Ramen noodles, pizza...  Other than freshmen, how many people do closed dining halls affect?[/q]

I was on the 7/3 for three years, until I moved into an apartment off campus.  (We hiked from the Townhouses to Wegmans and back to get groceries for a pasta dinner cooked by a more adventuresome friend.)

Many pro sports team have some system of full and partial season ticket packages.  The key to those, however, is the fact that without the partial plan, you won't come close to selling out the place.   The teams that sell out their arenas on season tickets alone (e.g. NY Giants, Phila. Eagles) have zero incentive to spend the extra money to create partial plans.  Therefore, in the case of Lynah where the demand far exceeds supply, that idea won't help much.

[Q]Jeff Hopkins '82 Wrote:

 Many pro sports team have some system of full and partial season ticket packages.  The key to those, however, is the fact that without the partial plan, you won't come close to selling out the place.   The teams that sell out their arenas on season tickets alone (e.g. NY Giants, Phila. Eagles) have zero incentive to spend the extra money to create partial plans.  Therefore, in the case of Lynah where the demand far exceeds supply, that idea won't help much.[/q]

I think this misses the point.  Whatever approach is used, I expect multiple ticket packages to sell out and that the differences between what we have now and providing split-season packages would be revenue-neutral.  The incentive would be to get more hockey fans into the games and to avoid both the bitterness of those who get frozen out each year and the sorts of potentially dangerous problems we've seen over the past two years.  Hopefully athletics would be interested in more than just the easiest way to maximize their bottom line.

[Q]Jerseygirl Wrote:

I just don't understand why no one else seems to think these people trampling each other should be held responsible while they're calling for Athletics to be held responsible. Or if they do think so, why they're not saying it. The setup for this year's ticket distribution didn't encourage calm, compliant behavior, but the students still chose to act the way they did and should be held accountable for that. I am a huge fan of personal responsibility.
[/q]

I agree that the jackasses creating a stampede should be held responsible for their actions.  I think the reason you're not seeing people talking about it is because Athletics had it coming.

For 4 (maybe more?) years, Athletics has put together a half-baked ticket distribution procedure that:

1) Makes the ticket line an event
2) REQUIRES everyone to spend a minimum amount of time in the line
3) Sets a specific *start* time for the line

This results in a large number of people, knowing in advance that they will be sacrificing X number of days for tickets, waiting for the official start time.  In years past, these people would congregate and form a line - not an effective line, mind you, but something with some semblance of order.

This year, the powers that be made a (thankfully not literally) fatal error - by making the location a secret, Athletics encouraged a stampede.  I'd go so far as to say they made a stampede inevitable.  Think about it.  You have 2000+ people waiting around for an announcement.  All of them wish to get the best line number they can (or any line number at all).  What do you think will happen when the announcement comes?  That all 2000+ people will file towards the location in an orderly fashion?

This does not exonerate the people responsible for doing the actual pushing, shoving, and stampeding.  But it does indicate that the Athletics Department has no idea how to run this thing.

But here's the thing - every year or two, some really popular performer comes to Cornell through the Cornell Concert Commission.  Every time this happens, they put tickets up on sale, and people wait, sometimes overnight, outside of the Willard Straight ticket office.  These people do this without fanfare or (much) press coverage.  They do this without line numbers.  They do this with no hope of the performer showing up to thank them for being such huge fans.  And on the day tickets go on sale, these people walk up and buy their tickets in a more or less orderly fashion (and yes, I realize pushing, shoving, and line cutting is a problem in these lines - but I saw the Jon Stewart line and it wound its way into the Arts Quad with no stampeding at all).

I doubt the CCC people didn't know that Dave Matthews or Jon Stewart would draw this kind of response.  Why do their lines work so well, while the hockey line doesn't?

Three reasons - more supply to meet demand, no set start time (IMO the most important factor, at least from a stampede-prevention perspective), and these concert lines aren't an event.  They aren't designed to be fun and entertaining.  They don't involve the hockey team coming out to have a slap shot competition during the 3 day mandatory waiting period *after* line numbers have been distributed (or in this case, Jon Stewart coming out to tell jokes or Dave Matthews putting on an impromptu acoustic set).  They involve a bunch of people sleeping on concrete or just staying up all night waiting to buy tickets because they want to make damn sure they're in the building when Jon Stewart says something funny, or Dave Matthews plays Ants Marching.  And there's fun in that, but you have to make it fun for yourself, which is the way it should be.

If they dispense with all of the crap around the line, and announce it with no fanfare, saying tickets will go on sale on Sunday (date) at 6 PM at (location), and then make sure the location is set up to encourage orderly line formation (think the Ramin Room filled with Tensa-Barriers and a few security people once the line is long enough to warrant it) none of this would happen, and after the first year without any outside entertainment hardly anyone would bother skipping class on a Friday to buy tickets on a Sunday (all bets are off if Cornell wins multiple NCAA titles).  

I feel like I've said all of this before, maybe a year or two ago.  Which would've been about the time I stopped trying to get tickets through the line because, in the best twist to all of this, I can almost always get into the game.  If I can do it, so can everyone else, which makes this whole fiasco all the more ridiculous.

The bottom line is you weren't there.  You've heard some accounts etc. about what actually took place, but you yourself didn't witness it--I did.  Anyone that knows me will attest to the fact that I am usually the first person to criticize the immaturity, disrespectfulness and plain stupidity of my peer group.  In this case, the vast majority of my peers didn't exhibit any of those three characteristics. FROM WHAT I SAW...there was no flagrant trampling--if there was I am willing to bet it was limited to one or two isolated incidents.  

What I saw was a number of CUPD (3 I think) forcibly push their way to the top of the stairs.  Where they proceeded to scream "everyone near the steps move back."  Unfortunately, many of the students followed the instructions of the police.  Try and visualize this... people in the front are told to move back and the people in the back are told nothing--what do you think happens to the people in the middle?  It was at this point that some people fell to the ground and were injured.

Although in the beginning the instincts of many of the students took over and they tried to push their way in, quickly everyone realized the futility of trying to push 2000 people through a single door.  At this point, many people, including myself, yelled for everyone to stop pushing and to remain calm.  Most of the crowd heeded our pleas to stop pushing.  Trying to remain calm proved to be a much more difficult task, because everyone was squished next to each other.  There were a few people who were feeling claustrophobic--I saw a number of people encouraging their fellow faithful to get through this ordeal.

I do not doubt that there were a few bad apples out of the approximately 2000 students trying to get into Lynah.  Unfortunately, their actions were magnified by the domino effect of the close quarters that resulted due to the failure of the line.  Although a few students did escalate the problem, neither these students nor the group as a whole were the root of the problem.  I agree with you that it is pointless trying to assign blame or direct anger/hate at Gene Nighman.  If you read my posts I try to discourage the "fire Gene Nighman" mentality.  Instead, i feel the root of the problem (as far as safety was concerned) was the design of the ticket process.  The design of the process did not properly control the speed and volume of the students that tried to secure line numbers.

The idea that students share much of the responsibility in the fact that "line" didn't resemble a "line" is unfair.  The process this year seemed to be in many aspects similar to last year's.  Last year there was no line...numbers were given out upon arrival.  The goal was to get their as quick as possible.  The athletics press release gave no indication that the same would not be true again this year.  This year it was even more important to get to the "line" as quick as possible, as there were far more students on central campus and a matter of seconds could mean a difference of 100 numbers.  So we bottled up all of our enthusiasm, anxiety, and energy for three nights, which erupted at the announcement of the location and a shot of adrenaline sent us running frantically to Lynah.  It might have been more rational to, upon arrival, form a real line.  But it wouldn't have been the more "human" thing to do as passionate Lynah Faithful.  Sometimes acting rationally isn't the right thing to do.

In a moving crowd like that, a stampede only takes a handful of people (or buffalo, or whatever) to start.  Similarly, pushing and shoving that results in a crush of people at a door when a line would be much more effective also takes just a few people to start.  When I was talking about the jackasses above, I was talking about those people specifically.  I probably should have made that more clear.

The bottom line is this - the people responsible for this line screwed up.  Yes, the students themselves could have handled it better, and the few bad apples who were pushing and making a mess of the process, such as it was, deserve their share of the blame.  But given the circumstances I think it all went reasonably well - AFAIK nobody got severely injured, nobody died, and Cornell should consider itself lucky and abandon all of this nonsense for future years.  Just sell the tickets, instead of making an event out of it.

anyone at all beginning to feel pains throughout their body?  I knew I was getting pushed alot and jammed into the stair railing, but now I am getting pains in my back where are getting worse and worse.  Nothing unbearable, but still sucks.

Yeah....my ribs are unhappy:-/

How many people are surprised by the results given the precautions taken.  Enough of this acintg like 'adults' argument.  I know plenty of people older than me who would have acted in the same manner.  Probably, they would have been worse, believing that they were more entitled because they were 'adults'.  And they might have acted more viciously because of it.  Lets face it, people acted like people the other night.  The reason that precautions are taken to maintain order in situations like this is because most people have accepted that fact that even intelligent people, as a group, are very very stupid.

[Q]mtmack25 Wrote:

 How many people are surprised by the results given the precautions taken.  Enough of this acintg like 'adults' argument.  I know plenty of people older than me who would have acted in the same manner.  Probably, they would have been worse, believing that they were more entitled because they were 'adults'.  And they might have acted more viciously because of it.  Lets face it, people acted like people the other night.  The reason that precautions are taken to maintain order in situations like this is because most people have accepted that fact that even intelligent people, as a group, are very very stupid.[/q]

Very true.  I love the Psych 101 classic about the experiment they did at Stanford where they locked students in a building for a weekend and divided them randomly into "prisoners" and "guards."  They had to cut the experiment short because the physical and mental abuse was getting out of hand.  The most intelligent and rational people will act as anything but if put into the wrong environment.  Athletics needs to recognize this as a fact of human nature and design the environment accordingly.  

Anything that doesn't involve stairways and locked doors would be a good start...

FYI...

I was just up at Bartels and Gene Nighman made an announcement that you can buy your tickets after 1 o'clock today (this was the stated deadline).  The impression he gave was that staff would be their to take money/credit cards tonight and possibly tomorrow.  

[Q]redhair34 Wrote:

 FYI...

I was just up at Bartels and Gene Nighman made an announcement that you can buy your tickets after 1 o'clock today (this was the stated deadline).  The impression he gave was that staff would be their to take money/credit cards tonight and possibly tomorrow.  [/q]

No surprise by me,  I just talked to some of my friends that are in that line at 12:40 and they said they were at least 1 1/2 hours from paying for their tickets.  I cant believe that they did not listen to me about going on Tuesday or Wednesday like I did and spent the whole 5 mins paying for mine.

Is it true they gave out the tickets tonight?? :-(

only to grad students

New strategy for next year: befriend a grad student and use their ID to purchase tickets.

Well, I dont know how bad it was for grads overall, but that's still bullshit.  Have a process where completely random people get top numbers, and then do nothing to weed the facetimers out (I actually know the ppl with top grad numbers and they are good fans, but still the idea is overall).