Info is as of the end of the regular season and all the 4/27 games.
IVY LEAGUE MEN'S LACROSSE TOURNAMENT
At Cornell (School of #1 Seed)
Semifinals, Friday, May 31 seed Cornell vs. 4 Penn, 8:30
2 seed Princeton vs. 3 Yale, 6 pm
Final, Sunday, May 5Title game, 1 pm
No third-place game
Ticket info "Coming soon" says the ILT site (https://ivyleague.com/feature/24mlaxtournament). Cornell ticket site now active: https://cornellbigred.com/news/2024/4/29/mens-lacrosse-ivy-tournament-tickets-on-sale-now.aspx
All games (Tournament Package): Adults $20, Kids 12 and under $10
Friday (2 games): $15, kids $10
Sunday (1 game): $10, kids ("14 and under" (typo? Sunday rule?) $5
Free: participating team students (Columbia had it "Ivy students last year" ), children 2 and under
Weather in Ithaca as of Tuesday 4/30
Friday: Partly sunny, high 75
Saturday: rain, 62
Sunday: rain, 58 (had been "partly cloudy, high 64 as of 4/27)
[b]Final Ivy League Standings, 2024
SCHOOL CONF CPCT. OVERALL PCT. STREAK WINS OVER 4-2 TEAMS[/b][b][color=#CC0066]
Cornell * 5-1 .833 9-4 .692 W2 Yale, Prin[/color][/b]
Princeton 4-2 .667 9-4 .692 W2 Yale, Penn
Yale * 4-2 .667 11-3 .786 L1 Penn
Penn * 4-2 .667 8-5 .615 L1
Harvard 2-4 .333 8-5 .615 W1
Brown 2-4 .333 3-11 .214 L2
Dartmouth 0-6 .000 3-10 .231 L7
*clinched 2024 Ivy League men's lacrosse tournament berth
* Most of this is irrelevant since Cornell won the RS title outright. It does apply to how 3 teams, all 4-2, wound up 2-Princeton, 3-Yale, 4-Penn.
* Cornell took itself out of the tiebreaker by going 5-1 not 4-2.
* Princeton beat both Yale and Penn, gets second seed.
* Yale beat Penn, gets third seed.
* Penn win over Cornell was over a 5-1 not 4-2 team. Info on the Ivy League Lacrosse Tournament as of 4/23 heading into the final weekend of play. Who gets in and where they might finish:
Cornell, Yale and Penn are in the tournament. It will be hosted by Cornell or Yale. It's likely to be Cornell, Yale, Penn, probably Princeton. Brown has an outside chance at the 4-seed if 2-3 Brown>Harvard and Yale>3-2 Princeton.
1T (Ivy standing 4/23). Cornell 4-1 Ivy at Dartmouth 0-5 4pm If Cornell beats Dartmouth, Cornell hosts the ILT, at least ties for Ivy title.
Cornell hosts ILT if Cornell>Dartmouth and Yale>Princeton because Cornell won the C>Y H2H.
1T. Yale 4-1 hosts Princeton 3-2, 12 noonIf Yale beats Princeton (and Cornell beats Dartmouth), both tie for the Ivy RS title at 5-1, Cornell hosts the ILT with its win over Yale Princeton.
If Princeton beats Yale, Princeton makes the ILT, Brown cannot. Princeton gets the 2-seed .
If Princeton loses to Yale
and Harvard beats Brown, Princeton gets in.
If Princeton loses to Yale and Brown beats Harvard, both finish 3-3, Brown gets in.
Princeton can be anywhere from the 2-seed to not-in-ILT.
3. Penn, 4-2, season finished. Has a win over Cornell, losses to Yale and Princeton. All other W's against the bottom 3 teams.
Penn is in the tournament.
5. Brown 2-3 at 6 Harvard 1-4, 3:30 pm Brown gets in if a) Yale beats 3-2 Princeton
and b) Brown beats Harvard, then Brown gets the 4-seed and likely plays Cornell. I.e., Brown needs 2 things to go right to make the show, Princeton only needs 1. Brown took Maryland to OT early season, but just lost 10-7 to Bryant Tuesday.
Note Brown is much lower in RPI (38) than Harvard (19). Harvard is ranked in the polls, Brown is not.
7. Dartmouth 0-5 hosts Cornell Can only play the spoiler (possibly keep Cornell from Ivy RS crown). Won't make the tournament.
Standings and H2H Comparisons
[b]Team Ivy Overall RPI[/b]
1. Yale 4-1 11-2 10
2. Cornell 4-1 8-4 8
3. Penn 4-2 8-5 12
4. Princeton 3-2 8-4 15
5. Brown 2-3 3-9 38
6. Harvard 1-4 7-5 19
7. Dartmouth 0-5 3-9 60 [b]Head-to-Head Comparisons to break ties[/b]
Versus Ya Co Pe Pr Br Ha Da
1 Yale 4-1 – L W W W W
1 Cornell 4-1 W – L W W W
3 Penn 4-2 L W – L W W W
4 Princeton 3-2 L W – L W W
5 Brown 2-3 L L L W – W
Harvard 1-4 L L L L – W
Dartmouth 0-5 L L L L L – For seeding:
* Overall Ivy record
* H2H between 2 tied teams or
* Cumulative H2H among 3+ tied teams
* (Once high seed determined) H2H among remaining tied teams
* If still ties, drop down to record against next team lower
This is complex, the long form is here: rules in full (https://ivyleague.com/sports/2018/4/17/MLAX_0417180748.aspx)
Best outcome for Cornell:
Cornell > Dartmouth, Cornell wins Ivy League RS title. Odds: likely
Yale > Princeton, Yale & Cornell finish 4-1, Cornell wins ILT top seed. Odds: tossup
Brown > Harvard, Brown and Princeton finish 3-3, Brown wins H2H, gets 4-seed, plays 1-seed. Odds: iffy, Brown has better Ivy record, Harvard has higher RPI.
Information below posted first week of AprilThinking about Cornell's chances for hosting the 2024 Ivy League lacrosse tournament the first weekend in May. It goes to the school with the best record. If there's a tie, it goes to the team with the best combined record against the others tied for first. So that one-goal Cornell loss to Penn is an issue. With Ivy 3 games left for Penn, Yale, Princeton and Cornell, 4 left for Harvard, Dartmouth and Brown, the league as of March 31 stands:
[b]Team W-L Ivy Games To Play
Apr 6 Apr 13 Apr 20 Apr 27 Outcomes[/b]
Penn 3-0 @Yale Harvard @Princeton Y12-P09 P15-H12
Yale 2-1 Penn @Dartmouth Princeton Y12-P09 Y20-D13
Princeton 2-1 Brown Penn @Yale ------- D13-P12
Cornell 2-1 Brown Harvard @Dartmouth C14-B08 -------
Harvard 0-2 Dart @Penn @Cornell Brown H13-D08
Dartmouth 0-2 @Harv Yale @Brown Cornell
Brown 0-2 @Cornell Princeton Dartmouth @Harvard Penn has the toughest Ivy schedule: Yale and Princeton on the road bookending a home game against Harvard (0-2 Ivy but 6-3 overall). Cornell has the easiest: the three 0-2 teams. If Yale or Princeton (or Harvard?) beats Penn, the likely multi-way tie favors Cornell. All four are 10-15 in the polls; on RPI Cornell is #7 (Syracuse game included) and PYP are 10-15 (Harvard is 17).
Penn has beaten Duke, Delaware and North Carolina but lost 12-7 to St. Joseph's and only beat Dartmouth by 3. After which they won the 2-OT Cornell game.
Good scenario for Cornell: Cornell wins out in the Ivies. Yale or Princeton beats Penn. Or both. Penn finishes with 2 or 3 losses, Cornell wins the H2H with Yale or Princeton, hosts the tournament.
Bad scenario for Cornell:
* Cornell wins out but so does Penn, the winner of the Princeton-Yale finale loses one other game, Penn wins the H2H.
* Cornell loses a second Ivy game. Unthinkable when the last 3 IL games are against the worst three Ivy teams. But ...
We need for Penn to lose a second game or there to be more than a Penn-Cornell one-loss tie for first.
I believe those are the scenarios.
The 2024 rules in full (https://ivyleague.com/sports/2018/4/17/MLAX_0417180748.aspx). The key parts here:
Quote from: The Ivy LeagueMen's Lacrosse Tournament Tiebreakers
[updated per coach group decision prior to 2023 season]
1. In the case of two-way ties between teams in the final standings, the higher seed will be determined on the basis of head-to-head competition.
2. In the case of a multiple ties (more than two teams with the same record), the following procedure will be used:
The highest seed will go to the team with the best cumulative record against all other teams tied at that spot. (If multiple teams are tied with the same record, the tie between those teams will be broken on the basis of cumulative record against each other)
Once a highest seed(s) (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the initial tie is broken. The tie between the remaining teams will be determined on the basis of cumulative record against all other remaining teams tied at that spot.
This procedure will be repeated until all possible ties are broken. (If there are remaining unbroken ties within the group, the remaining tied teams move on to step 3.)
3. In the case of a multiple team tie that cannot be broken on the basis of review of cumulative record:
The highest seed will go to the team that has beaten the highest seeded team outside of the tie and continuing through the full league standings (If multiple teams have beaten the highest seeded team outside of the tie, the tie between those teams will be broken on the basis of cumulative record against each other).
Once a highest seed(s) (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the initial tie is broken. The tie between the remaining teams shall be determined on the basis of cumulative record against all other remaining teams tied at that spot.
This procedure will be completed until all possible ties are broken. (If there remaining unbroken ties within the group, the remaining tied teams move on to step 4.) ...
I wouldn't label Harvard as a bad team. Its two Ivy losses are to Yale (on the road) and Princeton. They beat Michigan in Ann Arbor and just lost a close game to Virginia on the road. I saw them play at Yale last month and they have an explosive offense. Based upon our poor defense this season, they could beat us in another high-scoring game.
Yes, Harvard is the team that could make us a 4-2 Ivy team. And you need a strong arm to land fish on the playing surface.
Quote from: billhowardThinking about Cornell's chances for hosting the 2024 Ivy League lacrosse tournament the first weekend in May. It goes to the school with the best record. If there's a tie, it goes to the team with the best combined record against the others tied for first. So that one-goal Cornell loss to Penn is an issue. With Ivy 3 games left for Penn, Yale, Princeton and Cornell, 4 left for Harvard, Dartmouth and Brown, the league as of March 31 stands:
[b]Team W-L Ivy Games To Play
Apr 6 Apr 13 Apr 20 Apr 27[/b]
Penn 3-0 @Yale Harvard @Princeton
Yale 2-1 Penn @Dartmouth Princeton
Princeton 2-1 Brown Penn @Yale
Cornell 2-1 Brown Harvard @Dartmouth
Harvard 0-2 Dart @Penn @Cornell Brown
Dartmouth 0-2 @Harv Yale @Brown Cornell
Brown 0-2 @Cornell Princeton Dartmouth @Harvard
Penn has the toughest Ivy schedule: Yale and Princeton on the road bookending a home game against Harvard (0-2 Ivy but 6-3 overall). Cornell has the easiest: the three 0-2 teams. If Yale or Princeton (or Harvard?) beats Penn, the likely multi-way tie favors Cornell. All four are 10-15 in the polls; on RPI Cornell is #7 (Syracuse game included) and PYP are 10-15 (Harvard is 17).
Penn has beaten Duke, Delaware and North Carolina but lost 12-7 to St. Joseph's and only beat Dartmouth by 3. After which they won the 2-OT Cornell game.
Good scenario for Cornell: Cornell wins out in the Ivies. Yale or Princeton beats Penn. Or both. Penn finishes with 2 or 3 losses, Cornell wins the H2H with Yale or Princeton, hosts the tournament.
Bad scenario for Cornell:
* Cornell wins out but so does Penn, the winner of the Princeton-Yale finale loses one other game, Penn wins the H2H.
* Cornell loses a second Ivy game. Unthinkable when the last 3 IL games are against the worst three Ivy teams. But ...
We need for Penn to lose a second game or there to be more than a Penn-Cornell one-loss tie for first.
I believe those are the scenarios.
The 2024 rules in full (https://ivyleague.com/sports/2018/4/17/MLAX_0417180748.aspx). The key parts here:
Quote from: The Ivy LeagueMen's Lacrosse Tournament Tiebreakers
[updated per coach group decision prior to 2023 season]
1. In the case of two-way ties between teams in the final standings, the higher seed will be determined on the basis of head-to-head competition.
2. In the case of a multiple ties (more than two teams with the same record), the following procedure will be used:
The highest seed will go to the team with the best cumulative record against all other teams tied at that spot. (If multiple teams are tied with the same record, the tie between those teams will be broken on the basis of cumulative record against each other)
Once a highest seed(s) (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the initial tie is broken. The tie between the remaining teams will be determined on the basis of cumulative record against all other remaining teams tied at that spot.
This procedure will be repeated until all possible ties are broken. (If there are remaining unbroken ties within the group, the remaining tied teams move on to step 3.)
3. In the case of a multiple team tie that cannot be broken on the basis of review of cumulative record:
The highest seed will go to the team that has beaten the highest seeded team outside of the tie and continuing through the full league standings (If multiple teams have beaten the highest seeded team outside of the tie, the tie between those teams will be broken on the basis of cumulative record against each other).
Once a highest seed(s) (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the initial tie is broken. The tie between the remaining teams shall be determined on the basis of cumulative record against all other remaining teams tied at that spot.
This procedure will be completed until all possible ties are broken. (If there remaining unbroken ties within the group, the remaining tied teams move on to step 4.) ...
I think you need to include:
4. If a tie still persists, add the goals for and against in the games between the tied teams. The team (s) with the greatest goal differential gets highest seed (6-goal maximum differential per game). (If a tie persists in which multiple teams have the same greatest goal differentials, the tie between those teams will be broken on the basis of cumulative record against each other). Once a highest seed (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the remaining seeds will be determined on the basis of cumulative record against each other.
Because if Yale beats Penn and Cornell/Yale/Penn all finish 5-1 in the Ivies, this will be the rule that is needed...
So Cornell would need a Yale win by 5 or fewer goals to win on this criterion.
Also, UNC beat Penn
Just win.
nah. Time to start rooting for Penn to keep it close, currently they are down 12-8 with 7 minutes left
Quote from: nshapironah. Time to start rooting for Penn to keep it close, currently they are down 12-8 with 7 minutes left
12-9 final
And I believe that winning the last two Ivy league games gets Cornell #1 seed in the tournament
Quote from: nshapiroAnd I believe that winning the last two Ivy league games gets Cornell #1 seed in the tournament
In a scenario where Penn and Cornell finish at 1 loss, everyone else has 2 losses, Cornell loses the H2H. Among the one-loss teams, Yale or Princeton will have one more loss on the final weekend (because they play each other). Ditto Penn or Princeton the weekend before, same reason. I believe the just-win-out scenario for Cornell works only if Penn loses one more Ivy game, hosting Harvard next weekend or at Princeton April 20.
Ivy lax standings 4/6/24
before after Harvard plays (
likely beats) Dartmouth. Overall, the top five teams all have 7 wins overall.
Quote from: billhowardQuote from: nshapiroAnd I believe that winning the last two Ivy league games gets Cornell #1 seed in the tournament
In a scenario where Penn and Cornell finish at 1 loss, everyone else has 2 losses, Cornell loses the H2H. Among the one-loss teams, Yale or Princeton will have one more loss on the final weekend (because they play each other). Ditto Penn or Princeton the weekend before, same reason. I believe the just-win-out scenario for Cornell works only if Penn loses one more Ivy game, hosting Harvard next weekend or at Princeton April 20.
Ivy lax standings 4/6/24 before after Harvard plays (likely beats) Dartmouth. Overall, the top five teams all have 7 wins overall.
True....
Unless Cornell Penn and Yale all win out, Cornell would win the tie break
Quote from: nshapiroQuote from: billhowardQuote from: nshapiroAnd I believe that winning the last two Ivy league games gets Cornell #1 seed in the tournament
In a scenario where Penn and Cornell finish at 1 loss, everyone else has 2 losses, Cornell loses the H2H. Among the one-loss teams, Yale or Princeton will have one more loss on the final weekend (because they play each other). Ditto Penn or Princeton the weekend before, same reason. I believe the just-win-out scenario for Cornell works only if Penn loses one more Ivy game, hosting Harvard next weekend or at Princeton April 20.
Ivy lax standings 4/6/24 before after Harvard plays (likely beats) Dartmouth. Overall, the top five teams all have 7 wins overall.
True....
Unless Cornell Penn and Yale all win out, Cornell would win the tie break
[b]Team W-L Ivy Games To Play
Apr 13 Apr 20 Apr 27[/b]
Penn 3-1 Harvard @Princeton
Yale 3-1 @Dartmouth Princeton
Cornell 3-1 Harvard @Dartmouth
Princeton 2-1 Brown Penn @Yale
nshapiro is right: Penn, Cornell and Yale winning out is good for us. We lose H2H with Penn, win H2H with Yale and win the three way tie based on goal differential among three teams that are 1-1 against each other and have beaten whoever is in 4th place. We are +2, Yale is at 0 and Penn is -2.
One last thought for completeness. If both Cornell and Princeton win out, we win the H2H with Princeton.
Quote from: Jeff Hopkins '82One last thought for completeness. If both Cornell and Princeton win out, we win the H2H with Princeton.
Princeton winning out means they beat Penn 4/20 and Yale 4/27.
Quote from: billhowardQuote from: Jeff Hopkins '82One last thought for completeness. If both Cornell and Princeton win out, we win the H2H with Princeton.
Princeton winning out means they beat Penn 4/20 and Yale 4/27.
Right, but we'd both have have one loss, which means we win the tie-breaker.
Just a different tie scenario to be considered.
Wish I'd taking more courses on statistics and probabilities. I wish we'd gotten the OT goal against Penn and then it'd be simple. I wish I was drinking buddies with Nate Silver. All roads not taken.
Not much this weekend to affect the outcome of the Ivy race with three weekends of play left. Yale, Cornell, Penn, all 3-1 Ivy, Princeton 2-1.
One game with the outcome not clear:
* 16 Harvard at 14 Penn, 1 pm
Two games with the visiting teams likely to win:
* 7 Yale at 59 Dartmouth 3:30 pm
* 12 Princeton at 40 Brown, 3:30 pm
Non-league game Sunday
* 10 Cornell - 1 Notre Dame at LIU's stadium, 12:30 pm
We want Harvard to beat Penn. If Cornell then beats Harvard and Dartmouth, Cornell will host the ILT no matter what else happens.
Harvard leads Penn 9-7 at the half.
Penn 13, Harvard 12 4:18 remaining in Q4
Quote from: ugartePenn 13, Harvard 12 4:18 remaining in Q4
14-12 final minute, Penn ball
15-12 Penn final. They had possession for almost all of the final 4 minutes and made a save on Harvard's one decent shot.
Penn 15, Harvard 12. Harvard ran up a 9-6 lead before the half, Penn ran off 6 straight, game tied at 12, Harvard missed a couple chances, Penn got up 14-12, Harvard messed up a clear, got a miracle empty-net save by a defender, failed to capitalize when the Penn goalie dropped the ball on a clear, Penn added a final goal on a long-stick shot from its own 25 yard line.
[aside: Host Dartmouth up on Yale 7-1 in the first period, 10-6 in the second. If it holds: That should trigger an automatic urine test. Okay, 7-4. It doesn't hold: Yale 15-12 and final is 20-13. Brown built up a nice lead on Princeton, Tigers tied it at 12 halfway through the fourth, Brown went up 13-12, goes up 14-12 with a minute left except Brown coach calls a timeout a moment before the shot. (Probably to burn the last 42 seconds off the shot clock. Last second Brown saves gives them a 13-12 win.)]
The save that almost kept Harvard in the game with about a minute left:
That is one of the all-time great saves.
Princeton getting upset 13-12 by Brown Saturday (4/13) reduces the number of ways Cornell gets the 1-seed in the ILT. The one-loss teams are now Yale, Penn (which gave Cornell its loss) and Cornell, but not Princeton now at 2 losses nor Harvard at 3 losses (but 7-4 overall, suggesting they're tough for Cornell to beat). We can't count on help from Princeton in a multi-way one-loss tie at the top. Right now we win a one-loss H2H finish with Yale-Penn-Cornell or Yale-Cornell but not Penn-Cornell.
4/13 & 4/14 Ivy results:
Penn 15, Harvard 14
Yale 20, Dartmouth 13
Brown 13, Princeton 12
Penn and Yale each have a final Ivy game against Princeton: Penn away on 4/20, Yale home on 4/27.
win 1 and just make the final 4. Then hope for 2 to get the #1 seed
Looking good for Cornell to win the regular season title, alone or tied with Yale, and as a result host the Ivy League tournament, semifinal games Friday May 3, title game Sunday (no third-place game). Why:
* Cornell and Yale lead the league at 4-1, Cornell holds the tiebreaker to host the ILT, based on H2H (C18-Y15).
* Cornell finishes against the only winless Ivy team, at Dartmouth. Pretty likely win.
* Yale hosts Princeton in its finale, should be a close game. If Yale loses and Cornell wins, Cornell wins the RS title alone.
[b]Ivy Standings Heading Into the Final Week
TEAM W L 4/27 Game Ivy Wins over[/b]]
Yale* 4 1 Princeton Harvard, Brown, Penn, Dartmouth
Cornell* 4 1 @Dartmouth Princeton, Yale, Brown, Harvard
Penn* 4 2 ---- Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell, Harvard
Princeton** 3 2 @Yale Harvard, Dartmouth, Penn
Brown** 2 3 @Harvard Princeton, Dartmouth
Harvard 1 4 Brown
Dartmouth 0 5 Cornell
* clinched playoff spot | ** could make playoff
Brown I believe has a shot at the final playoff spot if Brown beats Harvard and Yale beats Princeton, then both finish 3-3 and Brown wins the H2H comparison.
[Edit add confirming Cornell controls its road to the Ivy RS title and 1-seed for the tourament:]
Quote from: Inside LacrossePrinceton gets in with a victory next week against Yale or with a Harvard win over Brown. Cornell, winners vs. Harvard, has the inside track to host because of its head-to-head tiebreaker over Yale. If the Big Red beat Dartmouth, they are the Ivy League regular season champions and will host the tournament. [Link (scroll way down past Princeton-Harvard game story): https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/clear-as-ivy-cornell-runs-past-harvard-mike-gianforcaro-paces-princeton-with-saves-goal/63147]
whats a 4 way tie look like?
Quote from: upprdeckwhats a 4 way tie look like?
A mess?
We'd have a 2 wins against the top 4 (Princeton, Yale)
Yale would have 1 win against the top 4 (Penn)
Penn would have 1 win against the top 4 (us)
Princeton would have 2 wins against the top 4 (Penn, Yale)
I'm not 100% sure how they'd decide it, but if they eliminate the two 1-win teams, and then compare the H2H of the two 2-win teams, we win that H2H. But I don't know if that's how they'd break the ties.
Quote from: upprdeckwhats a 4 way tie look like?
It looks unlikely in the extreme. As a practical matter, Cornell ain't gonna lose to 0-5 Dartmouth.
But should that happen, I believe Cornell would be the 1-seed. The first tie-breaker is how many wins each team has against the others tied for the same playoff seed. The only four-way would be Cornell-Yale-Penn-Princeton. The four-way would become possible by Princeton beating Yale (could happen), Cornell losing to Dartmouth (this would happen in a Disney kids-sports-movie-world where the coach also says, "You're right, the rules don't say a labrador retriever can't take faceoffs" ), and Penn already with its Ivy season finished.
* Yale: 1 win against the other tied teams, over Penn
* Cornell: 2 wins, over Princeton and Yale
* Penn: 1 win, over Cornell
* Princeton: 2 wins, over Penn and Yale, tieing with Cornell's 2 wins ...
... but the next tiebreaker step is H2H and Cornell won that future H2 when long pole Matt Dooley chugged upfield and buried a shot at 14:59 of the fourth to break that 14-14 tie in the season opener at Princeton.
the Ivy League says:
Quote from: Men's Lacrosse Tournament TiebreakersMen's Lacrosse Tournament Tiebreakers
[updated per coach group decision prior to 2023 season]
1. In the case of two-way ties between teams in the final standings, the higher seed will be determined on the basis of head-to-head competition.
2. In the case of a multiple ties (more than two teams with the same record), the following procedure will be used:
The highest seed will go to the team with the best cumulative record against all other teams tied at that spot. (If multiple teams are tied with the same record, the tie between those teams will be broken on the basis of cumulative record against each other)
Once a highest seed(s) (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the initial tie is broken. The tie between the remaining teams will be determined on the basis of cumulative record against all other remaining teams tied at that spot.
This procedure will be repeated until all possible ties are broken. (If there are remaining unbroken ties within the group, the remaining tied teams move on to step 3.)
3. In the case of a multiple team tie that cannot be broken on the basis of review of cumulative record:
The highest seed will go to the team that has beaten the highest seeded team outside of the tie and continuing through the full league standings (If multiple teams have beaten the highest seeded team outside of the tie, the tie between those teams will be broken on the basis of cumulative record against each other).
Once a highest seed(s) (amongst the tied teams) is determined, the initial tie is broken. The tie between the remaining teams shall be determined on the basis of cumulative record against all other remaining teams tied at that spot.
This procedure will be completed until all possible ties are broken. (If there remaining unbroken ties within the group, the remaining tied teams move on to step 4.)
Continues: https://ivyleague.com/sports/2018/4/17/MLAX_0417180748.aspx#:~:text=1.,head%2Dto%2Dhead%20competition.
I believe that's how it works.
I am intrigued by the possibility of Princeton losing at Yale and Brown beating Harvard. In that case, Harvard and Brown will both finish 3-3 and the H2H tiebreaker goes to the Bruins. Meaning the opening round would be:
Host: Cornell
Games: Cornell vs. Brown
Yale vs. Penn
Based on the 2023 tournament, the top-seed plays the early game. At neutral-site Columbia, they were played at 6 and 8:30 Friday, title game 12 noon Sunday.
Whaddya know. I guess right!
Quote from: billhowardQuote from: upprdeckwhats a 4 way tie look like?
It looks unlikely in the extreme. As a practical matter, Cornell ain't gonna lose to 0-5 Dartmouth.
C'mon, man.
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: billhowardQuote from: upprdeckwhats a 4 way tie look like?
It looks unlikely in the extreme. As a practical matter, Cornell ain't gonna lose to 0-5 Dartmouth.
C'mon, man.
Big Green feels a little bit like a "trap" game. I hope we don't see another really slow start.
It would be a disappointing loss for sure. The NCAA is not a lock, and a bad loss would really hurt if they don't win the IVY.
Dart lost to the top teams by 7-10-3 and Harvard by 6 brown by 3.
Quote from: upprdeckIt would be a disappointing loss for sure. The NCAA is not a lock, and a bad loss would really hurt if they don't win the IVY.
Dart lost to the top teams by 7-10-3 and Harvard by 6 brown by 3.
Led Yale 7-1; led Brown through much of game.
Still remember the Dartmouth game at Foxborough in 2010 when a Dartmouth goalie named Fergus Campbell knocked off a 7-1 Cornell team 8-6 with 16 saves. There's also the game referenced above, two years ago in Hanover, when it took a Billy Coyle goal with three minutes left to win it, 8-7. That Cornell team was a national finalist. So...you never know.
Quote from: upprdeckIt would be a disappointing loss for sure. The NCAA is not a lock...
Take solace in the soothing thought of a great Canadian/American sportswriter. Ignore Eccesiastes 9:11.
Quote from: Hugh Keough, 1864-1912"The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the best way to bet,"
(Grantland Rice used the line also, and credits Keough.)
RPI after weekend of 4/21 (ie Cornell-Harvard et al) to see how close the Ivy final weekend's games might be if RPI is an indicator:
[b]Lax RPI going into final weekend of Ivy play[/b]
(1. Duke
(2. Notre Dame)
...
8. Cornell (one place ahead of Penn State)
10. Yale
12. Penn
15. Princeton
19. Harvard
38. Brown
60. Dartmouth (of 76 ranked teams)
per https://lacrossereference.com/stats/rpi-d1-men/
It's going to be tight if we don't win the first playoff game.
If we were to lose to Penn we would have 2 losses to them.
Win the IVY and we could get to 5-6 type seed.
This schedule 10 days in advance of the Ivy League Lacrosse Tournament has the 2-3 seeds playing the early game at 6 pm, the 1-4 seeds playing at 8:30 pm, then the title game at 1 pm. When it was neutral-site last year, I believe the 1-seed got the early game. Ignore that the graphic has all 3 games Sunday May 5. It should be semifinals Friday, day off Saturday, title game Sunday. Games on ESPNU.
Quote from: billhowardThis schedule 10 days in advance of the Ivy League Lacrosse Tournament has the 2-3 seeds playing the early game at 6 pm, the 1-4 seeds playing at 8:30 pm, then the title game at 1 pm. When it was neutral-site last year, I believe the 1-seed got the early game. Ignore that the graphic has all 3 games Sunday May 5. It should be semifinals Friday, day off Saturday, title game Sunday. Games on ESPNU.
Everything on May 5th?
Quote from: mike1960Quote from: billhowardThis schedule 10 days in advance of the Ivy League Lacrosse Tournament has the 2-3 seeds playing the early game at 6 pm, the 1-4 seeds playing at 8:30 pm, then the title game at 1 pm. When it was neutral-site last year, I believe the 1-seed got the early game. Ignore that the graphic has all 3 games Sunday May 5. It should be semifinals Friday, day off Saturday, title game Sunday. Games on ESPNU.
Everything on May 5th?
Read Bill's posting.
I think, ah, the Ivy League was in a deadline crush, say, and somebody didn't proofread the sketch that became the graphic. Everybody, everywhere, doing online stuff feels rushed. But they also know, if they make a mistake, they can correct later that day, or tomorrow. In print, you're kind stuck, except you run a correction in a future issue. I'm sure it's two semifinal games Friday, title game Sunday. The order of semifinal games (Friday) has changed from the 1-seed going early-game to second-game, the opposite of 2023, and the Sunday start time moved from noon to 1 pm. I'm using 2023 info from the game box scores.
This year, Friday games are 6 and 8:30. When the day's temp will reach the high 70s in the afternoon. Won't be as nice Sunday, rain not (yet) forecast.
2023 it was:
Neutral site, Columbia
Games 6 pm (1-4 matchup) and 8:30 Friday, 12 noon Sunday
Cornell was the 1-seed, lost 22-15 to Yale
2022, at 1-seed, Brown
Games 6 pm and 8:30 (1-4 matchup), 12 noon Sunday
Cornell was the 2-seed, lost 14-11 to Yale
Getting out of a lAX game at 1030-1100 isnt fun. Good news is the crowd wont be that big that time of night.
Quote from: upprdeckGetting out of a lAX game at 1030-1100 isnt fun. Good news is the crowd wont be that big that time of night.
Not so great for the winner of the late game, either.
Quote from: Al DeFlorioQuote from: upprdeckGetting out of a lAX game at 1030-1100 isnt fun. Good news is the crowd wont be that big that time of night.
Not so great for the winner of the late game, either.
Not like NCAA hockey when one final-four semifinal was Thursday, one Friday, and the Friday winner has a huge disadvantage.
I like the late start on a Friday, that way I'll be able to go to both games.
Quote from: billhowardThis year, Friday games are 6 and 8:30. When the day's temp will reach the high 70s in the afternoon. Won't be as nice Sunday, rain not (yet) forecast.
I don't like that 1 v 4 is the late game and 2 v 3 is early. In the Northeast in early May temperatures usually are very comfortable at 6 PM. And the late start is a disadvantage when teams are evenly matched and young athletes need their rest.
Of course, the #1 team is the home team and likely the biggest attraction in the bunch. So, attendance may be greater with the late start. But since when does money trump fairness? ::crazy::
This was just coincidence ... your last sentence included Money, Trump and Fairness ?
I'd like to believe any college lacrosse player whether just turned 18 or maybe 22 or 23, no one is so young or so old a game at 6pm vs. 8:30pm is going to affect his abilities.
I get the advantage of the ECAC 1-seed at Lake Placid wanting the 4 pm semifinal game for an extra 3 hours of rest for a game 24 hours later, and also, their game over and won (except Quinnipiac didn't), they can sit and watch the style of play of their Saturday night opponents.
If Cornell as host had the choice (?), I might want the later game so more fans can drive up from metro New York to watch. But so could Yale, Princeton or Penn fans.
Quote from: billhowardThis was just coincidence ... your last sentence included Money, Trump and Fairness ?
I'd like to believe any college lacrosse player whether just turned 18 or maybe 22 or 23, no one is so young or so old a game at 6pm vs. 8:30pm is going to affect his abilities.
I get the advantage of the ECAC 1-seed at Lake Placid wanting the 4 pm semifinal game for an extra 3 hours of rest for a game 24 hours later, and also, their game over and won (except Quinnipiac didn't), they can sit and watch the style of play of their Saturday night opponents.
If Cornell as host had the choice (?), I might want the later game so more fans can drive up from metro New York to watch. But so could Yale, Princeton or Penn fans.
Do we think there will be a sig attendance jump from NYC for a late night game? if you are making the drive you need to give yourself 4-5 hrs no matter when it starts .
Quote from: upprdeckDo we think there will be a sig attendance jump from NYC for a late night game? if you are making the drive you need to give yourself 4-5 hrs no matter when it starts .
I'm making this up as I go along: Looking for all possible reasons why the school or the league chose the 1-seed in the late game not early game. And why it may have gone the other way.
Me, I would have chosen early game:
* Weather is nicer at 6pm. Turns out it may still be in the upper 60s at 8:30 But if the game played in the weather of Saturday -- rainy, temps probably in the 50s by dark -- it'd be miserable for the fans and players.
* 1-seed plays early game, they get to see Yale-Princeton one more time.
* More Cornell students might to the early game and then go find a party.
last year they played the same schedule in Columbia
Cornell/yale game one had 2100
penn/prin game 2 had 1400
If you wanted the best weather temp for both games play at 4/7
It should be ok this week though, but still once the sun goes down it wont feel as nice sitting out there until 11.
Time of day doesn't matter all that much. This is May not March 3. Lacrosse is still playable when temps are in the 40s. Way more important is that it's not in New Haven or Princeton or Philadelphia. At Columbia was okay because so many alumni are in the metro NY area.
Timing matters not at all to the players other than playing a game and getting home after midnight even for the Cornell kids
But for the fans its not nearly as enjoyable.
Do most people take kids to movies that start at 9pm?
If hockey started all the home games at 9pm you would see a drop in attendance as well.
now this could all be TV driven as well with the time slot.
Good point, taking kids or grandkids < middle-school age to an 8:30 game.
Conversely if your kid plays a youth / HS spring sport, odds are greater it was an afternoon game. Or will be a Saturday game and hopefully not in the morning. Assuming you're in the Syracuse-Ithaca-Rochester area, a reasonable ride home.
I do think about parents / grandparents taking kids to Lynah, where the language gets more raW over time and assuming the kids can actually make out the words:
See ya, you goon --> See ya, asshole
Rough 'em up, rough 'em up --> fuck 'em up.
BTW, last year Columbia offered $5/pp/game group seating any age if you had a group of 20 or more. Let's see if this is an Ivy rule or site by site. No group seating for the 2022 tournament at Brown.
I'm guessing here, but I think the #1 seed playing the late game is a League decision to mitigate the top seed's home-field advantage. When the ILT was at a neutral site, the #1 seed got the advantage of playing the early game. But prior to the switch to neutral NYC, the #1 seed always played the late game.
Quote from: CU77I'm guessing here, but I think the #1 seed playing the late game is a League decision to mitigate the top seed's home-field advantage. When the ILT was at a neutral site, the #1 seed got the advantage of playing the early game. But prior to the switch to neutral NYC, the #1 seed always played the late game.
But I would think one of the benefits of earning the #1 seed would be to be able to play the early game. No reason that advantage should be mitigated.
Heh! That actually makes sense: play the later game, take a little off the advantage of playing at home.
Assuming the Ivy League made rational decisions. I was thinking they were thinking more people would turn out for a late game. Or they (ILT wizards) were thinking: More Cornell folk are local when it's in Ithaca, so the late game is no big deal getting home. Whereas the Yale and Princeton people, a lot of them metro NY people, can drive home after the 6pm game, be home by midnight, then the winner's side drives up and back for a Sunday day trip.
Quote from: billhowardHeh! That actually makes sense: play the later game, take a little off the advantage of playing at home.
Assuming the Ivy League made rational decisions. I was thinking they were thinking more people would turn out for a late game. Or they (ILT wizards) were thinking: More Cornell folk are local when it's in Ithaca, so the late game is no big deal getting home. Whereas the Yale and Princeton people, a lot of them metro NY people, can drive home after the 6pm game, be home by midnight, then the winner's side drives up and back for a Sunday day trip.
I actually think it's less complicated than this.
Of the 4 teams, the home team is likely to have the highest fan turnout. If the home team is scheduled for the early game, many -- if not most -- of its fans will leave before the second game. However, if the home team is playing the late game, then some of its fans will likely also attend the early game. Therefore, to maximize actual (and paid) attendance, the home team goes last. Add to this the 1/4 & 2/3 pairings, and you have 2 vs 3 followed by 1 vs 4. Q.E.D.
The idea that the late game has greater attendance because it gives people more time to drive doesn't seem credible. According to Google Maps, the university closest to Ithaca is Penn, which is 3h 43m away. With the game starting at 8:30, one would have to leave Philadelphia by 4:00 to be on time. If one's going to take off Friday at 4:00, they might as well take off at noon. Besides, real lacrosse fans who would drive this far (228 mi.) would take the day off in order to arrive in time to check into their hotel and have dinner before the first game.
When the games were played "at" Columbia, the subway from my son's house in Brooklyn took 1h 15m. Driving in, out, & around NYC is no picnic. This make me think most people who attended the games either lived in the Greater New York area or decided to spend the weekend in NYC, which is much better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
If driving time were the main consideration, the league would pick a geographically central point, like Yale, or perhaps a more neutral-but-geographically central location, like Albany or Poughkeepsie. Or, maybe someplace that's a lacrosse hotbed, like Massapequa.
Interestingly, the other 3 teams in this year's ILT are the quickest drives to Cornell: Pn - 3:43, Pr - 3:52, Y - 4:28. Compare to H - 5:11, D - 5:14, & B - 5:17.
I think a few other things could attract more people and make the event more successful. At Columbia the food sucked, especially considering the city where it's located. One of the Halal food booths from lower Manhattan, or even knishes on a grill, would have made the event more enjoyable.
Next weekend, maybe have a food truck or two in a parking lot near the Kopf. Also, starting early enough to have pregame tailgating would add a lot. Adding more sports or cultural events for Saturday (OK, it's Finals, so maybe not the Dead; but how about a group like Lake St. Dive or Donna the Buffalo?) would be a great way to make people want to spend the weekend in Ithaca in early May.
The problem with such things is that with the current system we don't know where the ILT will be until as late as the week before. But my bigger point of making the weekend into more than just 3 lacrosse games (of which most fans will be interested in only 2 or 1) could make the ILT a big party rather than just an athletic event. If the league could pull this off, more people will attend the games, and they'll have a great time all weekend.
So we think they over think the HF advantage for lax is too much so force the home team to play late at night and have less time after the time to get treatment/recover if they win?
Or we think they are worried about the 100 people driving 4 hrs to the game for one of the other 3 teams?
Interesting wrinkle in the MAAC tournament. They play a six team tournament with two byes. The top remaining semifinalist hosts championship weekend. BUT that team must be a full MAAC member. So 3 seeded Manhattan (who beat Q in a play in) will host this weekend even though Sacred Heart and LIU are seeded 1 and 2 because it's the highest full MAAC team.
Go forth and overthink who should get the early game there.
Quote from: upprdeckSo we think they over think the HF advantage for lax is too much so force the home team to play late at night and have less time after the time to get treatment/recover if they win?
Or we think they are worried about the 100 people driving 4 hrs to the game for one of the other 3 teams?
Putting my money on league wanting home team in late game to keep people in stands.
How does that even matter. If you are a cornell local you can pay $20 for 3 games or $15 for friday or $10 for Sunday
if you buy the full package they get the money either way even if you only go to one game.
Most locals will show up for Cornell and some diehards for both.
How many does Yale/Princ bring on this trip on a Friday ? a 100?
It will be warm which will help. Then you get a t-storm delay and now the late game gets over at midnight.
4/7 made more sense to get the biggest crowd and the best of the sun and weather.
Quote from: upprdeckHow does that even matter. If you are a cornell local you can pay $20 for 3 games or $15 for friday or $10 for Sunday
if you buy the full package they get the money either way even if you only go to one game.
Most locals will show up for Cornell and some diehards for both.
How many does Yale/Princ bring on this trip on a Friday ? a 100?
It will be warm which will help. Then you get a t-storm delay and now the late game gets over at midnight.
4/7 made more sense to get the biggest crowd and the best of the sun and weather.
4/7 or 1/4 would be better. More butts on seats looks better for both games. I'm guessing that's why they put #1 in late game. I'd rather see C play early, but league didn't ask my opinion..
Polls after games of April 27-28, 2024. Cornell remains at 8 in the Media/USILA poll. Syracuse is up to #3.
Media / Inside Lacrosse 4/29/24 Week 12
# Team Points Prev
1 Notre Dame (10 - 1) 460(23) 1
2 Johns Hopkins (10-3) 430 3
3 Syracuse (11 - 4) 406 4
4 Denver (11 - 2) 363 6
5 Virginia (10 - 4) 346 5
6 Duke (11 - 4) 343 2
7 Maryland (8 - 4) 312 7
[b][color=#CC0000]8 Cornell (9 - 4) 306 8[/color][/b]
9 Penn State (10 - 3) 293 10
10 Georgetown (10 - 3) 268 11
11 Army (11 - 2) 220 12
[b]12 Princeton (9 - 4) 212 13[/b]
[b]13 Yale (11 - 3) 199 9[/b]
14 St Joseph's (10 - 3) 147 16
15 Towson (11 - 3) 141 15
[b]16 Penn (8 - 5) 121 17[/b]
17 Michigan (8 - 6) 81 19
18 Richmond (9 - 5) 68 14
19 Delaware (8 - 4) 36 18
20 Boston U (8 - 6) 24 --
Receiving Votes: [b]Harvard[/b], Colgate, North Carolina, Jacksonville, UAlbany, Lehigh, Loyola, Utah, Sacred Heart, High Point Quint Kessenich on LaxAllStars (https://laxallstars.com/quint-kessenichs-top-20-april-29th-2024/) has it:
1 ND
2 Hopkins
3 Syracuse
4 Duke
5 Virginia
6 Penn State
7 Denver
8 Cornell (unchanged)
9 Maryland
10 Georgetown
11 Army
12 Princeton (was 14)
13 Yale (was 11)
14 Penn (was 15)
15 Towson
16 St. Joseph's
17 Delaware
18 Richmond
19 Michigan
20 BU Quote from: Kessinich on CornellWe are going to Ithaca! Cotter, Carc and I will be at Cornell (9-4) for the Ivy League tournament on Friday night and Sunday at 1pm. (ESPNU)
"Hardhat 21" took care of business at Dartmouth 15-10 to wrap up their regular season. Cornell's offense was led by senior CJ Kirst who had seven points while freshman Ryan Goldstein added five points. Goalie Wyatt Knust, suddenly on fire, made 18 stops.
For my money, Pat Kavanagh and CJ Kirst sit atop the Tewaaraton race entering May. The pack chasing this duo includes Matt Brandau, Liam Entenmann, Evan Plunkett, Brennan O'Neil and Connor Shellenberger. This award takes care of itself and parallels a team's climb to Philadelphia.
CJ Kirst averages 3.6 goals per game.
Quote from: billhowardPolls after games of April 27-28, 2024. Cornell remains at 8 in the Media/USILA poll. Syracuse is up to #3.
Media / Inside Lacrosse 4/29/24 Week 12
# Team Points Prev
1 Notre Dame (10 - 1) 460(23) 1
2 Johns Hopkins (10-3) 430 3
3 Syracuse (11 - 4) 406 4
4 Denver (11 - 2) 363 6
5 Virginia (10 - 4) 346 5
6 Duke (11 - 4) 343 2
7 Maryland (8 - 4) 312 7
[b][color=#CC0000]8 Cornell (9 - 4) 306 8[/color][/b]
9 Penn State (10 - 3) 293 10
10 Georgetown (10 - 3) 268 11
11 Army (11 - 2) 220 12
[b]12 Princeton (9 - 4) 212 13[/b]
[b]13 Yale (11 - 3) 199 9[/b]
14 St Joseph's (10 - 3) 147 16
15 Towson (11 - 3) 141 15
[b]16 Penn (8 - 5) 121 17[/b]
17 Michigan (8 - 6) 81 19
18 Richmond (9 - 5) 68 14
19 Delaware (8 - 4) 36 18
20 Boston U (8 - 6) 24 --
Receiving Votes: [b]Harvard[/b], Colgate, North Carolina, Jacksonville, UAlbany, Lehigh, Loyola, Utah, Sacred Heart, High Point
Quint Kessenich on LaxAllStars (https://laxallstars.com/quint-kessenichs-top-20-april-29th-2024/) has it:
1 ND
2 Hopkins
3 Syracuse
4 Duke
5 Virginia
6 Penn State
7 Denver
8 Cornell (unchanged)
9 Maryland
10 Georgetown
11 Army
12 Princeton (was 14)
13 Yale (was 11)
14 Penn (was 15)
15 Towson
16 St. Joseph's
17 Delaware
18 Richmond
19 Michigan
20 BU
Quote from: Kessinich on CornellWe are going to Ithaca! Cotter, Carc and I will be at Cornell (9-4) for the Ivy League tournament on Friday night and Sunday at 1pm. (ESPNU)
"Hardhat 21" took care of business at Dartmouth 15-10 to wrap up their regular season. Cornell's offense was led by senior CJ Kirst who had seven points while freshman Ryan Goldstein added five points. Goalie Wyatt Knust, suddenly on fire, made 18 stops.
For my money, Pat Kavanagh and CJ Kirst sit atop the Tewaaraton race entering May. The pack chasing this duo includes Matt Brandau, Liam Entenmann, Evan Plunkett, Brennan O'Neil and Connor Shellenberger. This award takes care of itself and parallels a team's climb to Philadelphia.
CJ Kirst averages 3.6 goals per game.
"suddenly on fire"?
"the home team is the headliner, so they get the last spot on the bill" is the simplest explanation.
Quote from: SwampyThe idea that the late game has greater attendance because it gives people more time to drive doesn't seem credible. According to Google Maps, the university closest to Ithaca is Penn, which is 3h 43m away. With the game starting at 8:30, one would have to leave Philadelphia by 4:00 to be on time. If one's going to take off Friday at 4:00, they might as well take off at noon. Besides, real lacrosse fans who would drive this far (228 mi.) would take the day off in order to arrive in time to check into their hotel and have dinner before the first game.
That time from Philadelphia is a best case scenario when I-76 going to King of Prussia isn't locked with traffic and it doesn't take forever to get to the northeast extension (I-476) where traffic is clear and the speed limit is higher than anywhere in New York. Leaving at 4 PM would mean closer to a 5-hour trip. I doubt many Penn supporters who aren't students actually live in the city, though--they're more likely to be in one of the neighboring county suburbs for reasons I won't get into here.
Quote from: billhowardQuote from: Kessinich on CornellWe are going to Ithaca! Cotter, Carc and I will be at Cornell (9-4) for the Ivy League tournament on Friday night and Sunday at 1pm. (ESPNU)
"Hardhat 21" took care of business at Dartmouth 15-10 to wrap up their regular season. Cornell's offense was led by senior CJ Kirst who had seven points while freshman Ryan Goldstein added five points. Goalie Wyatt Knust, suddenly on fire, made 18 stops.
For my money, Pat Kavanagh and CJ Kirst sit atop the Tewaaraton race entering May. The pack chasing this duo includes Matt Brandau, Liam Entenmann, Evan Plunkett, Brennan O'Neil and Connor Shellenberger. This award takes care of itself and parallels a team's climb to Philadelphia.
CJ Kirst averages 3.6 goals per game.
The thing that bugs me about summarizing Kirst's contribution by average goals per game is that it reduces a multi-dimensional player (and game) to a single point. Kirst does so much more than just score goals: he gets ground balls, he causes turnovers on the ride, etc. Other contestants are also multi-dimensional. So, don't reduce the game or player to a single statistic, as if this were anything but a team game.
... which Kirsch contributions outside Goals/Assists the voters will recognize. One hopes.
Matt Brandau, Yale 45-54--97 3CT 33GB
CJ Kirst, Cornell 45-21--66 16CT 32GB
Pat Kavanagh, ND 19-34--53 10CT 26GB
Quote from: Quint Kessinich, laxallstars.com 4/29 columnFor my money, Pat Kavanagh and CJ Kirst sit atop the Tewaaraton race entering May. The pack chasing this duo includes Matt Brandau, Liam Entenmann, Evan Plunkett, Brennan O'Neil and Connor Shellenberger. This award takes care of itself and parallels a team's climb to Philadelphia.
Quote from: billhoward... which Kirsch contributions outside Goals/Assists the voters will recognize. One hopes.
Matt Brandau, Yale 45-54--97 3CT 33GB
CJ Kirst, Cornell 45-21--66 16CT 32GB
Pat Kavanagh, ND 19-34--53 10CT 26GB
Quote from: Quint Kessinich, laxallstars.com 4/29 columnFor my money, Pat Kavanagh and CJ Kirst sit atop the Tewaaraton race entering May. The pack chasing this duo includes Matt Brandau, Liam Entenmann, Evan Plunkett, Brennan O'Neil and Connor Shellenberger. This award takes care of itself and parallels a team's climb to Philadelphia.
Yeah! And if you did it on a per-game basis, adjusting for their teams' schedules, ND has played 11 games, Yale 14, and Cornell 13.So, Kav looks a little better, and Brandau, a little worse. Here are some normalized figures:
Brandau, Yale 14 games, per game numbers: 3.2 -
3.9 -
6.9 0.2CT 2.4GB
Kirst, Cornell 13 games, per game numbers:
3.5 - 1.6 - 5.0.
1.2CT. 2.5GBKavanagh, ND. 11 games, per game numbers: 1.7 - 3.1 - 4.8. 0.9CT. 2.4GB
Bold = best in category
If you read seeding tea leaves coming out Cornell better beat Penn Friday
QuoteUncertainty on the attack persists, though, as fifth-year attackman Michael Long did not play or dress for Cornell in its season finale against Dartmouth. Long, who has consistently battled injuries throughout his elongated undergrad, is still a question mark heading into Friday night's contest.
"I hope so," Buczek said when asked if Long will slot into the lineup for Friday's game. "The expectation is that [Long] will be in the lineup for us Friday."
https://cornellsun.com/2024/05/01/rematch-with-penn-awaits-mens-lacrosse-in-ivy-tournament-semifinal/
Denver losing was not good and Mich beat8ng just is bad too
The Denver loss is definitely bad, but the Michigan one only matters if they end up winning. They're still outside even with the new W vs. Hopkins
Quote from: CU77QuoteUncertainty on the attack persists, though, as fifth-year attackman Michael Long did not play or dress for Cornell in its season finale against Dartmouth. Long, who has consistently battled injuries throughout his elongated undergrad, is still a question mark heading into Friday night's contest.
"I hope so," Buczek said when asked if Long will slot into the lineup for Friday's game. "The expectation is that [Long] will be in the lineup for us Friday."
https://cornellsun.com/2024/05/01/rematch-with-penn-awaits-mens-lacrosse-in-ivy-tournament-semifinal/
I was happy to see Jane McNally's name on the lacrosse story, continuing her good coverage.
I'm looking for the offense to keep things spread out a little more this time against Penn so the Penn slides require an extra step or two. If we can create a little more space for CJ, Mikey Long, and Kelleher, we're score a few more goals.
With all of the discussion about the starting times for the semifinals in the men's lacrosse tournament, it's interesting to note that the Ivy League women's tournament is being held today at Yale, with the first game at 4 p.m. and the second game at 6:30. Yale, the host and top seed, is playing in the late game.
I'm sure that ESPN was pushing for a later start for the men's games to get more viewers for the games. With the women's tournament, ESPN probably isn't counting on many people tuning in regardless of the starting times.
ESPN does not have any expectations for the men's ivy league lacrosse final late semifinal. they hope that the ads cover the bandwidth charges.
There's no way the Cornell game actually starts at 8:30 right? I would imagine closer to 9.
One lightning strike right now could save a million people from being swindled over the next 40 years.
Princeton leading Yale 13-10 6:25 left in the 4th period.
Quote from: Ken711Princeton leading Yale 13-10 6:25 left in the 4th period.
Princeton leading Yale 14-10 3:44 left in the 4th period.
Princeton beats Yale 14-10 to advance to the championship game.
Duke is beating up on Syracuse.
9-2 in the second period.
Cornell game set to start at 8:58.
I already miss Barry.
Long not playing
This pace is not sustainable.
I like that our offense is spacing things out. Their goalie made a good stop, but if we keep shooting, we'll score some goals tonight.
Wow, first goal of the season!
Quote from: TrotskyThis pace is not sustainable.
For Penn
Quote from: mike1960I like that our offense is spacing things out. Their goalie made a good stop, but if we keep shooting, we'll score some goals tonight.
Their goalie has made two ungodly Drydenesque moves so far. I hope he's not going to have his career night.
Quote from: semsoxQuote from: TrotskyThis pace is not sustainable.
For Penn
Let's hope.
Why did we have to surrender the ball after that takeaway?
LOL, this is mayhem.
Quote from: TrotskyWhy did we have to surrender the ball after that takeaway?
They called a hold on Follows (45) I believe.
Quote from: semsoxQuote from: TrotskyWhy did we have to surrender the ball after that takeaway?
They called a hold on Follows (45) I believe.
Thanks. I'm never going to understand this game.
Quote from: TrotskyQuote from: semsoxQuote from: TrotskyWhy did we have to surrender the ball after that takeaway?
They called a hold on Follows (45) I believe.
Thanks. I'm never going to understand this game.
They got tangled up and the ref decided to make it a thing.
It was a bad call.
3-2 Penn after 1st period.
Quote from: TrotskyQuote from: mike1960I like that our offense is spacing things out. Their goalie made a good stop, but if we keep shooting, we'll score some goals tonight.
Their goalie has made two ungodly Drydenesque moves so far. I hope he's not going to have his career night.
He's been good so far. We can't let him get in our heads and think we have to make the perfect shot. If we just keep making good shots, a percentage will go in.
FINALLY!
Have to control these face-offs. 5-3 Penn
Two goals, free hands topside.
We've got to do better.
Unwise outside shot by Kelleher with a man-up.
7-4 Penn at the half. Cornell better get going with the scoring in the 2nd half.
No Red goals from the starting 6 on O. Must do better!
Quote from: CU77No Red goals from the starting 6 on O. Must do better!
Caddigan...but the point is valid.
CJ has a great D man on him. We're going to need other guys to step up. I like what we were doing at the end of the half -- intense dodging behind the net and shooting or passing. Without Mikey Long, I think we're going to have to ask RG30 to win this game for us.
We've made mistakes on defense and we've paid for it. At least four Penn goals were just old fashioned dodging and shooting. We got to get there with our slides and make those shots tougher.
Can't give up 7 in the second half, either.
We need to get our shots on goal. 24 shots and 5 saves.
27 did a non-slide slide and gave the Penn guy a free look at the goal.
Good to see that goal. 9-7. Can't allow them to respond.
Bah. That's at least 4 times they have immediately responded.
And now Goldstein, 10-8. Come on, guys.
We need more of those types of goals. Carrol is a good goalie, but he's not a literal wall. Just take shots
We looked a lot better that quarter. Our defense is picking up.
We need RG30 to score.
Gilmartin has really raised the level of his game.
I have seen a cheap shot like that in NCAA I lacrosse in a long time.
Ow.
Forcing that pass in front of the goal with a non-releasable man up. What a mistake.
So many mistakes.
I'm really not ready for this season to end. Even if we can't come back, I will be very upset if we're left out
1:55, down 3.
I think we Need Penn to win sundayto have a shot at getting in now.
That was a tough, tough loss at home.
Quote from: upprdeckI think we Need Penn to win sundayto have a shot at getting in now.
Agreed. Only results that seem to matter now are Michigan/PSU (if Michigan wins, that might be a wrap) and Penn/Princeton (root for Penn)
We need Penn, PSU, and Georgetown all to win. If they do, Cornell has a decent shot at the last at-large.
Current RPI:
1. Notre Dame 0.7000
2. Duke 0.6710
3. Johns Hopkins 0.6521
4. Syracuse 0.6440
5. Virginia 0.6364
6. Denver 0.6295
7. Maryland 0.6274
8. Penn State 0.6244
9. Penn 0.6142
10. Georgetown 0.6113
11. Princeton 0.6083
12. Cornell 0.6080
13. Yale 0.6038
14. St Josephs (PA) 0.5913
15. Michigan 0.5898
16. Army West Point 0.5773
17. Boston University 0.5766
18. Villanova 0.5683
19. Towson 0.5668
20. Ohio State 0.5617
Princeton will drop below Cornell with a loss to Penn.
Bleed red but they don't deserve it at 9-5. That was not a team that deserves a bid to the tourney. Cant believe I'm saying this. But what the heck was that performance.
5 losses to teams in the top 10 is not a bad thing 4 wins vs top 20.
Losing to Penn twice hurts. Long not playing hurt even more.
Quote from: CU77We need Penn, PSU, and Georgetown all to win. If they do, Cornell has a decent shot at the last at-large.
Current RPI:
1. Notre Dame 0.7000
2. Duke 0.6710
3. Johns Hopkins 0.6521
4. Syracuse 0.6440
5. Virginia 0.6364
6. Denver 0.6295
7. Maryland 0.6274
8. Penn State 0.6244
9. Penn 0.6142
10. Georgetown 0.6113
11. Princeton 0.6083
12. Cornell 0.6080
13. Yale 0.6038
14. St Josephs (PA) 0.5913
15. Michigan 0.5898
16. Army West Point 0.5773
17. Boston University 0.5766
18. Villanova 0.5683
19. Towson 0.5668
20. Ohio State 0.5617
Princeton will drop below Cornell with a loss to Penn.
I don't think the Georgetown game matters. If they lose, they should fall below Cornell in RPI.
Seems like what matters is Penn State beating Michigan and Penn beating Princeton.
I assume from the above discussion that there will be at minimum six teams who receive an automatic bid and would not have gotten an at-large bid?
Georgetown is the only team to have beaten #1 Notre Dame, that may count for more than a couple of points in RPI.
Cornell misses Long.
Was told fan in stands Long has a hamstring injury
Also great game by the Penn goalie but much to the defense in front of him. Penn is hard to figure-games against Cornell and Duke-they have looked great but in their losses they have not looked like a playoff team. A bit of a roller coaster season.
Georgetown beats Villanova in a wild Big East championship game, 11-10 OT.
Big Red's hopes have dodged the first of 3 bullets.
We're all Pennsylvanians now!
Quote from: CU77Georgetown beats Villanova in a wild Big East championship game, 11-10 OT.
Big Red's hopes have dodged the first of 3 bullets.
We're all Pennsylvanians now!
Michigan over PSU 16-4. We're all in mourning now. ::pain:: ::bang::
Quote from: SwampyQuote from: CU77Georgetown beats Villanova in a wild Big East championship game, 11-10 OT.
Big Red's hopes have dodged the first of 3 bullets.
We're all Pennsylvanians now!
Michigan over PSU 16-4. We're all in mourning now. ::pain:: ::bang::
How many ways can Tambroni screw us over this year?
We screwed ourselves over. Unlike hockey at least we blew it by playing a strong schedule. Harder to be too upset about some of the lacrosse losses versus hockey losing to Colgate etc.
Funny that Kirst is the Award candidate when Long is the most important player.
If my math is right is that 100 total seasons between hockey and lacrosse of being national contenders and never winning. Random chance would suggest better. Frustrating.
Quote from: arugulaWe screwed ourselves over. Unlike hockey at least we blew it by playing a strong schedule. Harder to be too upset about some of the lacrosse losses versus hockey losing to Colgate etc.
Funny that Kirst is the Award candidate when Long is the most important player.
If my math is right is that 100 total seasons between hockey and lacrosse of being national contenders and never winning. Random chance would suggest better. Frustrating.
We had an easy clear and likely goal with under a minute to go vs ND, but our player evidently didn't see it so we blew the game against the #1 team in the country, which ultimately cost us an NCAA bid. But also, the refs blew a late call that game, and also jobbed Cornell in the Denver game. Not to mention all the injuries. Some of it was under our control, a lot of it wasn't.
Honestly, losing on the field, even if it's to injuries and the refs, will never be anywhere close to as frustrating as having entire seasons canceled in 2020 and 2021.
Mary getting killed by PSU and then PSU getting killed by Mich
The entirety of Big Ten Lacrosse just disgusts me. Are there really going to be four Big Ten teams (JHU, PSU, U of M and Maryland) in the NCAA tournament?
Quote from: arugulaWe screwed ourselves over. Unlike hockey at least we blew it by playing a strong schedule. Harder to be too upset about some of the lacrosse losses versus hockey losing to Colgate etc.
Funny that Kirst is the Award candidate when Long is the most important player.
If my math is right is that 100 total seasons between hockey and lacrosse of being national contenders and never winning. Random chance would suggest better. Frustrating.
As Bill Parcells used to say, You are what your record says you are.
That's true, except for maybe the Denver game. I didn't see it, but it sounds like we were kind of screwed there. But the bottom line is that we need to beat Penn at least once, maybe twice, and we couldn't get it done. And those are games we have to win. Injuries were a major factor, but we couldn't find a way to score goals when we needed to.
In both Penn games, it seemed to me that Penn figured out a way to neutralize our offense and we didn't a plan B or plan C. There was an exception. In the Ivy tournament, we sent Kelleher to X against a short stick, had him drive to GLE, pass around the top, and then get a good shot on the other side. But we didn't go back to that, or try other things to make the defense scramble. The same is true with the EMO offense. We seem predictable.
But I'm not an expert. I'm sure the coaches know what they are doing. There's a lot more going on during the game that I don't see or understand. It's disappointing. Sport is like that, I guess.
This will be a much different and much younger team next year without seniors in Krist and Long, among the 22 seniors and 5th year players they lose. Other players are going to have to step up, and maybe some freshman can win starting roles.
Kirst rumored to come back. Lets see.
The key part of the game were the 2 TWO min penalties we didnt even really generate shots down 2.
A few bad unforced turnovers in a game like that hurt as well.
Quote from: upprdeckKirst rumored to come back. Lets see.
The key part of the game were the 2 TWO min penalties we didnt even really generate shots down 2.
A few bad unforced turnovers in a game like that hurt as well.
Kirst and Long both coming back
Quote from: upprdeckKirst rumored to come back. Lets see.
The key part of the game were the 2 TWO min penalties we didnt even really generate shots down 2.
A few bad unforced turnovers in a game like that hurt as well.
Yes, those turnovers really hurt. Our guys must have felt the pressure. That happens.
Honestly, I thought we were (are) the better team, and I was certain we were going to win going away because Coach B would scheme out a winning attack. Instead, the game looked a lot like the previous game with us trying the same offense and getting the same results. I don't mean to be too critical. Penn has been a great defense all year, and they deserved to win. I hope they do well in the tournament.
Quote from: upprdeckKirst rumored to come back. Lets see.
The key part of the game were the 2 TWO min penalties we didnt even really generate shots down 2.
A few bad unforced turnovers in a game like that hurt as well.
Additionally, Penn scored 2 goals while our defense was ball-watching instead of sliding. And we let Firth (who's listed as "Attack" but has been playing offensive midfield) get caught downfield and having to play defense, where he was playing short-stick on short-stick and was beaten handily by the Penn player. (IMHO, Knust should have slid to back Firth up, although this may not have worked.) Against a team like Penn, we can't afford to give away 3 goals like this. (OK, maybe Firth being caught on the defensive side might have been unavoidable.)
Injuries hurt our defense all year, and next year we'll have to tighten things up. According to Inside Lacrosse (https://www.insidelacrosse.com/recruiting/college/team/Cornell/33/2024), this year the defense loses Jack Follows, Walker Wallace, Billy Kephart, and Charlie Packard (although some of them didn't see much playing time, and they may have stepped out so they can play next year along with Kirst & Long; I don't know). But we have three defensive players coming in: Cooper Simpson, Beck Mahoney, and Michael Marshall. All are rated as 4-stars (but remember both Firth & Goldstein were only 4-* too). There's not much more information about Simpson and Marshall, except they're 6'0" 175# and 5'10" 180# respectively. But the Analysis of Mahoney says, "Mahoney has a beautiful combination of IQ, size, and athletic ability to play the field at a college ready level. Stretching opponents the full length of the field with perfect approach angles and pressure." Apparently he was also recruited by Notre Dame, Duke, North Carolina, Brown, and Dartmouth.
Still, IMHO, to reach our potential we will have to play better
team defense than we did against Penn.
Quote from: mike1960In both Penn games, it seemed to me that Penn figured out a way to neutralize our offense and we didn't a plan B or plan C. There was an exception. In the Ivy tournament, we sent Kelleher to X against a short stick, had him drive to GLE, pass around the top, and then get a good shot on the other side. But we didn't go back to that, or try other things to make the defense scramble. The same is true with the EMO offense. We seem predictable.
But I'm not an expert. I'm sure the coaches know what they are doing. There's a lot more going on during the game that I don't see or understand. It's disappointing. Sport is like that, I guess.
Yeah, I also didn't get why the ineffective O in game 1 was seemingly repeated in game 2. I would have had Goldstein dodging from X a lot more, and also more middie inverts from X against shorties (as you describe with Kelleher).
But no one pays me to coach D1 lax, for very good reasons!
Quote from: CU77Quote from: mike1960In both Penn games, it seemed to me that Penn figured out a way to neutralize our offense and we didn't a plan B or plan C. There was an exception. In the Ivy tournament, we sent Kelleher to X against a short stick, had him drive to GLE, pass around the top, and then get a good shot on the other side. But we didn't go back to that, or try other things to make the defense scramble. The same is true with the EMO offense. We seem predictable.
But I'm not an expert. I'm sure the coaches know what they are doing. There's a lot more going on during the game that I don't see or understand. It's disappointing. Sport is like that, I guess.
Yeah, I also didn't get why the ineffective O in game 1 was seemingly repeated in game 2. I would have had Goldstein dodging from X a lot more, and also more middie inverts from X against shorties (as you describe with Kelleher).
But no one pays me to coach D1 lax, for very good reasons!
Same here!
I still love the team. We'll be tough next year!
Just saw the Princeton-Penn score. 18-11 Cats.
I will definitely watch this one to see how Princeton scored 18 on that defense. Earlier in the year, they scored 15 on them, the highest total until today against Penn.
Quote from: scoop85Quote from: upprdeckKirst rumored to come back. Lets see.
The key part of the game were the 2 TWO min penalties we didnt even really generate shots down 2.
A few bad unforced turnovers in a game like that hurt as well.
Kirst and Long both coming back
How is Long coming back? Is the line on his 6th year?
Quote from: arugulaQuote from: scoop85Quote from: upprdeckKirst rumored to come back. Lets see.
The key part of the game were the 2 TWO min penalties we didnt even really generate shots down 2.
A few bad unforced turnovers in a game like that hurt as well.
Kirst and Long both coming back
How is Long coming back? Is the line on his 6th year?
Sorry too quick-isn't he like in his sixth year?
Quote from: arugulaQuote from: arugulaQuote from: scoop85Quote from: upprdeckKirst rumored to come back. Lets see.
The key part of the game were the 2 TWO min penalties we didnt even really generate shots down 2.
A few bad unforced turnovers in a game like that hurt as well.
Kirst and Long both coming back
How is Long coming back? Is the line on his 6th year?
Sorry too quick-isn't he like in his sixth year?
During peak COVID a bunch of guys withdrew in order to extend their eligibility. It's conceivable that Long somehow did this too. Also, because he has been injured so much, it may be that he's able to petition for what's sometime erroneously called a "medical redshirt."
Quote from: arugulaQuote from: scoop85Quote from: upprdeckKirst rumored to come back. Lets see.
The key part of the game were the 2 TWO min penalties we didnt even really generate shots down 2.
A few bad unforced turnovers in a game like that hurt as well.
Kirst and Long both coming back
How is Long coming back? Is the line on his 6th year?
Lombardi was a 6th year this year.
My bad.
14 Seniors gone
Key losses: Boccafola, Petraeus, Wirtheim, Blake, Psyllos, and Follows
Surprised that Follows is leaving-my guess is that he did not take a semester break. In one of his interviews Kirst said he was granted a 9th semester. I am sure in the off-season Coach Stevens will be focused on how to improve the defense. Given that the injuries to Davis and Bozzi hurt the ssm defense-the close defense was by Cornell standards below par. I think Knust bailed them out a bit in the latter part of the season on some key stops.
We were the highest ranked school not in the tournament because of course we were.
Quote from: mike1960That was a tough, tough loss at home.
It was a fabulous evening in terms of the weather, if that's any consolation on Friday. I had the full monsoon suit ready for Sunday just in case.
If only:
* We got the last goal versus Notre Dame out in Bethpage
* We didn't let Penn get the OT goal in the RS
* there isn't any one if-only that would have turned around the game versus Penn State
* and let's ignore how lucky we were against Syracuse and Princeton
Probably worth noting that Cornell would almost certainly have made the NCAAs if it were allowed to have grad students. Losses to Penn State, Denver, Notre Dame feel more frustrating given all the grad students and transfers on those teams. Cornell had a pretty nice season to finish 12 in RPI despite being at a massive disadvantage to almost every other team in the country.