The F4 makes its annual appearance in Deadspin (http://deadspin.com/fgcu-on-ice-how-quinnipiac-created-the-no-1-hockey-te-472475765), although this one isn't as witless as usual.
Pinstripes! What a shock.
Yale leads Lowell 2-0
Quote from: nyc94Yale leads Lowell 2-0
Yale's absolutely dominating so far -- very impressive opening period.
Unbelievable. Cornell nearly beat this team twice. This season is already over but it keeps getting worse...
Quote from: BearLoverUnbelievable. Cornell nearly beat this team twice. This season is already over but it keeps getting worse...
I don't look at it that way at all. It tells me that we have the ability to play with anyone, and the prize is there for the taking next season, and hopefully for the foreseeable future.
Quote from: BearLoverUnbelievable. Cornell nearly beat this team twice. This season is already over but it keeps getting worse...
This reaction only makes sense through the prism of "Schafer is the problem", in case anyone needed a translation.
Quote from: scoop85Quote from: nyc94Yale leads Lowell 2-0
Yale's absolutely dominating so far -- very impressive opening period.
They've been incredibly impressive. It's great to watch; it's stomach churning to watch.
To avoid going to the painful place, one might rather wonder what Union is thinking right now. Perhaps something along the lines of, "Why were we set up to have to go through Quinnipiac?"
Could've been three ECAC teams at the F4 this year... or four... Unhappy place!
Uh-oh, 2–2.
Quote from: Scersk '97Uh-oh, 2–2.
So the Cornell season isn't looking quite as bad.
Perhaps Agostino will get an offer with all the Iginla/NCAA publicity.
I'm glad that this game/these games will be/are the last time(s) we'll have to see many of these Yale players, and I also hope Agostino leaves.
By the way, how nice it is to hear the non-pep band taken breaks covered by an organ rather than ruined by arena rock!
It may just be the weight of all those fatalistic years, but it feels like Yale has about a 5% chance of winning this game.
Quote from: Paula Weston, USCHO LiveBlogThere aren't that many Yale fans here. Yale had to return 300 of its tickets to the NCAA because the tickets didn't sell.
Quote from: ugarteQuote from: BearLoverUnbelievable. Cornell nearly beat this team twice. This season is already over but it keeps getting worse...
This reaction only makes sense through the prism of "Schafer is the problem", in case anyone needed a translation.
Oh, does it? Because it makes sense to me, and I don't think Schafer is the problem.
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: ugarteQuote from: BearLoverUnbelievable. Cornell nearly beat this team twice. This season is already over but it keeps getting worse...
This reaction only makes sense through the prism of "Schafer is the problem", in case anyone needed a translation.
Oh, does it? Because it makes sense to me, and I don't think Schafer is the problem.
My bad then. It makes less sense than I thought.
EDIT: That's probably unfair. When you say "... keeps getting worse," do you mean it in the sense of "we have real talent. but for a few bounces, what might have been. it is painful to see someone else do what we could have been doing."? Because I'll grant you that, even if I don't agree with the phrasing.
Quote from: scoop85Quote from: BearLoverUnbelievable. Cornell nearly beat this team twice. This season is already over but it keeps getting worse...
I don't look at it that way at all. It tells me that we have the ability to play with anyone, and the prize is there for the taking next season, and hopefully for the foreseeable future.
Oh, I mean, sure, it's a good sign for Cornell that Yale and Q are doing so well. But that sure as hell doesn't make me want to
root for them.
Quote from: ugarteQuote from: Paula Weston, USCHO LiveBlogThere aren't that many Yale fans here. Yale had to return 300 of its tickets to the NCAA because the tickets didn't sell.
There's probably as many Cornell fans in the building as Yale fans!
W00t! Go Yale!
Now, let's make it an all-ECAC final.
Quote from: Kyle RoseW00t! Go Yale!
Now, let's make it an all-ECAC final.
This makes absolutely no sense to me. I hope you're happy when all the hockey players who care about getting an education start going to Yale instead of Cornell (if they haven't started already). I hope you're happy that the team which has caused Cornell more hardship over the past six years than any other is on the verge of doing something Cornell hasn't done since 1970 despite having no fans and being absolute dogshit for the 36 years prior. But by all means, continue hating on 12th place in the ECAC Harvard because they have to be out rivals and we're not allowed to root against anyone else.
Boola Boola
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseW00t! Go Yale!
Now, let's make it an all-ECAC final.
This makes absolutely no sense to me. I hope you're happy when all the hockey players who care about getting an education start going to Yale instead of Cornell (if they haven't started already). I hope you're happy that the team which has caused Cornell more hardship over the past six years than any other is on the verge of doing something Cornell hasn't done since 1970 despite having no fans and being absolute dogshit for the 36 years prior. But by all means, continue hating on 12th place in the ECAC Harvard because they have to be out rivals and we're not allowed to root against anyone else.
Why don't you go eat a dick?Anyone who's actually spoken to me knows that I am not one of the Harvard-hating parrots here. Yeah, they suck, but only because they actually suck: I laugh at them, not fume over them. Yal6 is doing well—certainly better than Cornell the last few years—and deserves accolades. (As I've said numerous times over the past few months, I'm a bad fan: I have a hard time hating teams just because they aren't Cornell.) The bottom line is that Cornell isn't in the national title game because they didn't win enough other games. Yale is, because they did. Why would I wish ill will on a team that has consistently outperformed Cornell for the better part of a decade? I'd like my team to play better: that seems like the more constructive response.
I also believe in the phenomenon of "a rising tide lifts all boats": Cornell is tarred with the ECAC brush, so better for the paint to have glitter than dog shit. A strong ECAC will be better for every ECAC team.
One more thing: though I love the fan experience at Cornell and consider it integral to the Cornell hockey experience, the sport is about the athletes. Yale will win despite having no fans because the fans really don't matter that much. You don't matter that much. I don't matter that much. Get over it.
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseW00t! Go Yale!
Now, let's make it an all-ECAC final.
This makes absolutely no sense to me.
And rooting against the ECAC in the NCAAs makes absolutely no sense to me.
It's just two different ways of viewing things. De gustibus non est disputandum.
Now go Q, go!
Quote from: TrotskyQuote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseW00t! Go Yale!
Now, let's make it an all-ECAC final.
This makes absolutely no sense to me.
And rooting against the ECAC in the NCAAs makes absolutely no sense to me.
It's just two different ways of viewing things. De gustibus non est disputandum.
Now go Q, go!
QFT.
Has anybody found free streaming audio (or video) for the Q game? The Q radio station is currently playing what we'll charitably call "an eclectic mix."
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseW00t! Go Yale!
Now, let's make it an all-ECAC final.
This makes absolutely no sense to me. I hope you're happy when all the hockey players who care about getting an education start going to Yale instead of Cornell (if they haven't started already). I hope you're happy that the team which has caused Cornell more hardship over the past six years than any other is on the verge of doing something Cornell hasn't done since 1970 despite having no fans and being absolute dogshit for the 36 years prior. But by all means, continue hating on 12th place in the ECAC Harvard because they have to be out rivals and we're not allowed to root against anyone else.
Why don't you go eat a dick?
Anyone who's actually spoken to me knows that I am not one of the Harvard-hating parrots here. Yeah, they suck, but only because they actually suck: I laugh at them, not fume over them. Yal6 is doing well—certainly better than Cornell the last few years—and deserves accolades. (As I've said numerous times over the past few months, I'm a bad fan: I have a hard time hating teams just because they aren't Cornell.) The bottom line is that Cornell isn't in the national title game because they didn't win enough other games. Yale is, because they did. Why would I wish ill will on a team that has consistently outperformed Cornell for the better part of a decade? I'd like my team to play better: that seems like the more constructive response.
I also believe in the phenomenon of "a rising tide lifts all boats": Cornell is tarred with the ECAC brush, so better for the paint to have glitter than dog shit. A strong ECAC will be better for every ECAC team.
One more thing: though I love the fan experience at Cornell and consider it integral to the Cornell hockey experience, the sport is about the athletes. Yale will win despite having no fans because the fans really don't matter that much. You don't matter that much. I don't matter that much. Get over it.
It's enough to have 3 teams in the Frozen Four in two years to improve the ECAC's standing. People get it by now. We do not need mother******* Yale to win a championship in addition to that. There is certainly a balance where you don't want to be playing against nobodies but you want to be the best as well. It's been so long since we have been the best (in 2010 we only won the ECAC because Yale got upset earlier) that we have much bigger things to worry about than how well our rivals are doing. To me, nothing is more insulting in sports than your team struggling to win it all for so long and coming oh-so-close so many times only to see some new kid on the block win it all in a couple of years. Q winning would be just as insulting for the same reason.
Quote from: BearLoverIt's been so long since we have been the best (in 2010 we only won the ECAC because Yale got upset earlier) that we have much bigger things to worry about than how well our rivals are doing.
Exactly.
Q up quick on SCS, 3 minutes in.
2-zip. Holy sh...
Quote from: TrotskyHas anybody found free streaming audio (or video) for the Q game? The Q radio station is currently playing what we'll charitably call "an eclectic mix."
::thud::
2-0 Q, 14:53 left first period.
Quote from: TrotskyHas anybody found free streaming audio (or video) for the Q game? The Q radio station is currently playing what we'll charitably call "an eclectic mix."
http://www.dialglobalsports.com/player/frozenfour.html
3-0.
How can I tell if I'm hallucinating this?
3-0 Q. Keep em coming!
The fascinating / weird / terrifying thing is that the ECAC teams aren't just winning these games, they are COMPLETELY dominant so far.
WTF?
We were 64 seconds from knocking these guys off in a best-of-three at their barn.
Maybe we actually didn't suck this year?
Quote from: TrotskyWe were 64 seconds from knocking these guys off in a best-of-three at their barn.
aybe we actually didn't suck this year?
Now you're hallucinating. Wake up.
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: BearLoverIt's been so long since we have been the best (in 2010 we only won the ECAC because Yale got upset earlier) that we have much bigger things to worry about than how well our rivals are doing.
Exactly.
I was 50% sure you were going to post exactly this. My sentence was badly phrased, but I obviously meant that we have far more pressing concerns than that the ECAC is not strong enough. In 2003, maybe that was the case. In 2013, our concern is that
we aren't strong enough. But the difference in these past 10 years illuminates exactly how flawed your logic is. That the ECAC has gotten stronger recently has only weakened our chances. We haven't since gotten as far as we did in 2003 when the ECAC sucked. Now the ECAC is better and we can't even get in the tournament. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise that as the ECAC continues to grow stronger, we grow weaker. That rising tide surely lifted some boats; ours is sinking.
I don't speak for every Cornell fan apparently, but I definitely speak for that far majority of them when I say that Yale or Q winning it all is the closest thing possible to being punched in the balls short of Harvard winning. I simply cannot fathom how you people can actively root for these teams. If it's all based on the premise that it will indirectly help Cornell, I would argue that a)these teams absolutely do not need to win a championship for the ECAC to get recognition, and more importantly, b)it won't help Cornell anyway. When better recruits start going to Yale and Q and stop coming to Cornell because they aren't as good, that doesn't help Cornell. When Cornell does not make the NCAA's as often, that does not help Cornell. When the teams that have ended your seasons in (estimating) 4 of the past 6 years are playing for the national championship, that does not leave a good taste in your mouth. It honestly makes me want to throw up.
An all-ECAC final is a nice shove-it in the face of HE and WCHA fans, but it's definitely a tough pill to swallow that a non-Cornell ECAC team will win the title after all we've been through the last 10 years.
Quote from: Jordan 04An all-ECAC final is a nice shove-it in the face of HE and WCHA fans, but it's definitely a tough pill to swallow that a non-Cornell ECAC team will win the title after all we've been through the last 10 years.
Play better. "All we've been through" (oh, the humanity!) does not win games.
Quote from: BearLoverI simply cannot fathom how you people can actively root for these teams. If it's all based on the premise that it will indirectly help Cornell, I would argue that a)these teams absolutely do not need to win a championship for the ECAC to get recognition, and more importantly, b)it won't help Cornell anyway. When better recruits start going to Yale and Q and stop coming to Cornell because they aren't as good, that doesn't help Cornell. When Cornell does not make the NCAA's as often, that does not help Cornell. When the teams that have ended your seasons in (estimating) 4 of the past 6 years are playing for the national championship, that does not leave a good taste in your mouth. It honestly makes me want to throw up.
It's not only that it will help us (which it will). I learned during the height of the losing streak against Harvard that it was still impossible for me not to back an ECAC team in the NCAAs -- I found myself unconsciously rooting for them.
I have no problem rooting hard for Yale and Q and if an ECAC team wins I'll
love it. This tournament has rocked.
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: Jordan 04An all-ECAC final is a nice shove-it in the face of HE and WCHA fans, but it's definitely a tough pill to swallow that a non-Cornell ECAC team will win the title after all we've been through the last 10 years.
Play better. "All we've been through" (oh, the humanity!) does not win games.
That's not the point at all...
Quote from: TrotskyQuote from: BearLoverI simply cannot fathom how you people can actively root for these teams. If it's all based on the premise that it will indirectly help Cornell, I would argue that a)these teams absolutely do not need to win a championship for the ECAC to get recognition, and more importantly, b)it won't help Cornell anyway. When better recruits start going to Yale and Q and stop coming to Cornell because they aren't as good, that doesn't help Cornell. When Cornell does not make the NCAA's as often, that does not help Cornell. When the teams that have ended your seasons in (estimating) 4 of the past 6 years are playing for the national championship, that does not leave a good taste in your mouth. It honestly makes me want to throw up.
It's not only that it will help us (which it will). I learned during the height of the losing streak against Harvard that it was still impossible for me not to back an ECAC team in the NCAAs -- I found myself unconsciously rooting for them.
I have no problem rooting hard for Yale and Q and if an ECAC team wins I'll love it. This tournament has rocked.
I don't think we've ever been in such violent agreement.
Quote from: Jordan 04An all-ECAC final is a nice shove-it in the face of HE and WCHA fans
Not really. They don't care and if I were they I wouldn't either.
That's the kind of "beggar your neighbor" motivation that rooting against ECAC teams amounts to, so I think somebody motivated by that would have some pretty serious schizophrenia right now. :)
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: BearLoverIt's been so long since we have been the best (in 2010 we only won the ECAC because Yale got upset earlier) that we have much bigger things to worry about than how well our rivals are doing.
Exactly.
I was 50% sure you were going to post exactly this. My sentence was badly phrased, but I obviously meant that we have far more pressing concerns than that the ECAC is not strong enough. In 2003, maybe that was the case. In 2013, our concern is that we aren't strong enough. But the difference in these past 10 years illuminates exactly how flawed your logic is. That the ECAC has gotten stronger recently has only weakened our chances. We haven't since gotten as far as we did in 2003 when the ECAC sucked. Now the ECAC is better and we can't even get in the tournament. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise that as the ECAC continues to grow stronger, we grow weaker. That rising tide surely lifted some boats; ours is sinking.
I don't speak for every Cornell fan apparently, but I definitely speak for that far majority of them when I say that Yale or Q winning it all is the closest thing possible to being punched in the balls short of Harvard winning. I simply cannot fathom how you people can actively root for these teams. If it's all based on the premise that it will indirectly help Cornell, I would argue that a)these teams absolutely do not need to win a championship for the ECAC to get recognition, and more importantly, b)it won't help Cornell anyway. When better recruits start going to Yale and Q and stop coming to Cornell because they aren't as good, that doesn't help Cornell. When Cornell does not make the NCAA's as often, that does not help Cornell. When the teams that have ended your seasons in (estimating) 4 of the past 6 years are playing for the national championship, that does not leave a good taste in your mouth. It honestly makes me want to throw up.
Let me buy you a drink,
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTZWlENEcqWE48n7oWg19OthjaPOpq-15IxJ3ng1xstu2umcIDP)
Quote from: TrotskyIt's not only that it will help us (which it will).
Please enlighten me as to how? Because it's only hurt us in past years.
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: TrotskyIt's not only that it will help us (which it will).
Please enlighten me as to how? Because it's only hurt us in past years.
Someone's got to break the seal. The ECAC has been perceived as the weak sister for far too long. Recruiting will be a lot easier when recruits won't think they're wasting 4 years.
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: TrotskyIt's not only that it will help us (which it will).
Please enlighten me as to how? Because it's only hurt us in past years.
Huh? That makes no sense. This is new territory.
I suppose you can argue that the conference strengthening and shedding its image as uncompetitive will not help us. Good luck with that. But your argument that "it has only hurt us in past years" is self-contradictory. The conference members have been hurt by substandard performance. This is superlative performance, so prior years have no bearing (but are strongly indicative of the opposite of what you are saying).
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: BearLoverQuote from: TrotskyIt's not only that it will help us (which it will).
Please enlighten me as to how? Because it's only hurt us in past years.
Someone's got to break the seal. The ECAC has been perceived as the weak sister for far too long. Recruiting will be a lot easier when recruits won't think they're wasting 4 years.
There's way too much cognitive dissonance generated by agreeing with you. Quick, mention the Paris Commune or something. ;)
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: Jordan 04An all-ECAC final is a nice shove-it in the face of HE and WCHA fans, but it's definitely a tough pill to swallow that a non-Cornell ECAC team will win the title after all we've been through the last 10 years.
Play better. "All we've been through" (oh, the humanity!) does not win games.
Not sure what "oh, the humanity!" means.
Sometimes you don't play well enough. Sometimes you play well enough but still don't win. C'est la vie.
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: TrotskyIt's not only that it will help us (which it will).
Please enlighten me as to how? Because it's only hurt us in past years.
I'm with Trotsky as I have no idea what when or where in the past anything similar to what has happened in this year's tournament has hurt Cornell.
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: BearLoverQuote from: TrotskyIt's not only that it will help us (which it will).
Please enlighten me as to how? Because it's only hurt us in past years.
Someone's got to break the seal. The ECAC has been perceived as the weak sister for far too long. Recruiting will be a lot easier when recruits won't think they're wasting 4 years.
For QU and Yale, arguably.
While I don't openly root for these ECAC teams to get crushed as BearLover appears to, his position is not unreasonable. It's fair to believe that the recruiting advantage/improvement gained by QU and Yale from their appearance in the championship game (and one of them
being champions) is greater than any advantage gained by the 9th place team in the league. And that results in a net loss for Cornell.
4-1 Q!
Quote from: Jordan 04Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: BearLoverQuote from: TrotskyIt's not only that it will help us (which it will).
Please enlighten me as to how? Because it's only hurt us in past years.
Someone's got to break the seal. The ECAC has been perceived as the weak sister for far too long. Recruiting will be a lot easier when recruits won't think they're wasting 4 years.
For QU and Yale, arguably.
While I don't openly root for these ECAC teams to get crushed as BearLover appears to, his position is not unreasonable. It's fair to believe that the recruiting advantage/improvement gained by QU and Yale from their appearance in the championship game (and one of them being champions) is greater than any advantage gained by the 9th place team in the league. And that results in a net loss for Cornell.
This site is unusableonbilelltry again later. .i m
St. Cloud starting to act frustrated.
Quote from: TrotskyQuote from: BearLoverQuote from: TrotskyIt's not only that it will help us (which it will).
Please enlighten me as to how? Because it's only hurt us in past years.
Huh? That makes no sense. This is new territory.
I suppose you can argue that the conference strengthening and shedding its image as uncompetitive will not help us. Good luck with that. But your argument that "it has only hurt us in past years" is self-contradictory. The conference members have been hurt by substandard performance. This is superlative performance, so prior years have no bearing (but are strongly indicative of the opposite of what you are saying).
The conference shedding its image as uncompetitive will obviously help us. It will also help everyone else in our conference. Yale, Q, and Union are going to reap the far majority of the reward. The chances of Cornell winning the ECAC will significantly decrease (as they have the past 10 years, as the conference has gotten better). That means fewer trips to the NCAAS. That also means smart kids who are good at hockey will look elsewhere. Altogether that results in a net loss.
While I don't disagree with the Cornell fans who say what's good for the ECAC is good for Cornell, on an emotional level, I simply can not bring myself to root for Q. I watched every minute of our three-game playoff series against them, and after being subjected to their front-running fans, their annoying thundersticks, the blaring music in their arena and the 25 minutes it took me to exit the parking lot after Game 1 -- not to mention their rub-it-in-your face behavior in their 10-0 rout of us --I simply can not root for them under any circumstances. I am also sick of reading stories about them every day in the local newspapers here in CT.
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: BearLoverQuote from: TrotskyIt's not only that it will help us (which it will).
Please enlighten me as to how? Because it's only hurt us in past years.
Someone's got to break the seal. The ECAC has been perceived as the weak sister for far too long. Recruiting will be a lot easier when recruits won't think they're wasting 4 years.
I think this is the real point that BearLover doesn't buy into. This pending all-ECAC final will allow our coaches to more easily sell recruits on the fact that they can take advantage of all that Cornell offers and play in a league that truly offers the top competition available at the college level. I've been saying for years that the ECAC teams were improving accross the board, and I'm pleased that this year the results bear that out.
The fact that Yale or Q will almost certainly win the title will be feathers in their caps, but I don't think that at all means we'll lose all recruits to them or anyone else. I have every confidence that we'll get our share to top-shelf guys regardless who wins on Saturday, and our chances of getting the best academically qualified players can only be helped by the ECAC's stellar showing.
Quote from: BearLoverThe conference shedding its image as uncompetitive will obviously help us. It will also help everyone else in our conference. Yale, Q, and Union are going to reap the far majority of the reward. The chances of Cornell winning the ECAC will significantly decrease (as they have the past 10 years, as the conference has gotten better). That means fewer trips to the NCAAS. That also means smart kids who are good at hockey will look elsewhere. Altogether that results in a net loss.
This assumes the overall pie stays the same, but it won't. Minnesota and Denver winning NCAA titles didn't hurt the WCHA, it kept the conference in a position where they could attract talent and roll up 3, 4 or even 5 NCAA bids a season.
However, I can understand your argument now. I think we are arguing at different points on the supply curve. The ECAC is currently a "poorly exploited" resource. True, a rising tide can't lift all boats
forever -- eventually the conference maxes out and at that point your concerns start to affect a given member's chances. But we are nowhere near there right now, having been wandering in the wilderness now for decades. If Cornell loses a blue chip to Yale but picks up two who are no longer worried about coming to the ECAC, that's a net gain.
Quote from: dbilmesWhile I don't disagree with the Cornell fans who say what's good for the ECAC is good for Cornell, on an emotional level, I simply can not bring myself to root for Q. I watched every minute of our three-game playoff series against them, and after being subjected to their front-running fans, their annoying thundersticks, the blaring music in their arena and the 25 minutes it took me to exit the parking lot after Game 1 -- not to mention their rub-it-in-your face behavior in their 10-0 rout of us --I simply can not root for them under any circumstances. I am also sick of reading stories about them every day in the local newspapers here in CT.
I'm rooting for Q now, but will definitely favor Yale on Saturday. I too can't stand the thundersticks and the plastic corporate culture that seems to permeate their program -- and the hockey cheerleaders? Come on now!
Quote from: dbilmesI am also sick of reading stories about them every day in the local newspapers here in CT.
I'm sure this is a big part of it. Familiarity breeds contempt.
Quote from: scoop85and the hockey cheerleaders? Come on now!
With one exemption. I loathe the Gophers, but
this is traditional and, dare I say, classy:
(https://twimg0-a.akamaihd.net/profile_images/2625438556/image.jpg)
I'll be pulling for the asteroid.
Quote from: TrotskyQuote from: BearLoverThe conference shedding its image as uncompetitive will obviously help us. It will also help everyone else in our conference. Yale, Q, and Union are going to reap the far majority of the reward. The chances of Cornell winning the ECAC will significantly decrease (as they have the past 10 years, as the conference has gotten better). That means fewer trips to the NCAAS. That also means smart kids who are good at hockey will look elsewhere. Altogether that results in a net loss.
This assumes the overall pie stays the same, but it won't. Minnesota and Denver winning NCAA titles didn't hurt the WCHA, it kept the conference in a position where they could attract talent and roll up 3, 4 or even 5 NCAA bids a season.
However, I can understand your argument now. I think we are arguing at different points on the supply curve. The ECAC is currently a "poorly exploited" resource. True, a rising tide can't lift all boats forever -- eventually the conference maxes out and at that point your concerns start to affect a given member's chances. But we are nowhere near there right now, having been wandering in the wilderness now for decades. If Cornell loses a blue chip to Yale but picks up two who are no longer worried about coming to the ECAC, that's a net gain.
I understand there are pros and cons. I think the cons outweight the pros, because we are
directly competing with the others schools that benefit from this. Nationally, we may get some better recruits from the other conferences. But recruits also want to go to a program that wins. The ECAC slice of the recruit pie will increase, but Cornell's overall share I expect to stay largely the same, or increase slightly. This is more than offset by the fact we will be losing a lot more to the other ECAC teams.
Quote from: TrotskyHowever, I can understand your argument now. I think we are arguing at different points on the supply curve. The ECAC is currently a "poorly exploited" resource. True, a rising tide can't lift all boats forever -- eventually the conference maxes out and at that point your concerns start to affect a given member's chances. But we are nowhere near there right now, having been wandering in the wilderness now for decades. If Cornell loses a blue chip to Yale but picks up two who are no longer worried about coming to the ECAC, that's a net gain.
I think this is a bit of a straw man. Of course if we continue to out-recruit Yale 2:1 on blue chip prospects, we'll be fine. The argument is that the more the QU's and Yales go to the Frozen Four, the Finals, and win titles, the less likely any of those 3 aforementioned blue-chippers are coming to Cornell, let alone two. They theoretically become Yale's to "lose", not Cornell's.
Quote from: scoop85I think this is the real point that BearLover doesn't buy into. This pending all-ECAC final will allow our coaches to more easily sell recruits on the fact that they can take advantage of all that Cornell offers and play in a league that truly offers the top competition available at the college level. I've been saying for years that the ECAC teams were improving accross the board, and I'm pleased that this year the results bear that out.
The fact that Yale or Q will almost certainly win the title will be feathers in their caps, but I don't think that at all means we'll lose all recruits to them or anyone else. I have every confidence that we'll get our share to top-shelf guys regardless who wins on Saturday, and our chances of getting the best academically qualified players can only be helped by the ECAC's stellar showing.
More straw men. Nobody has argued that our coaches won't be able to more easily sell the ECAC after an all-ECAC final. Just that Cornell may have a tougher time selling Cornell, than Yale will have selling Yale (or QU, QU), than has historically been the case.
Of course we won't lose all of our recruits. Nobody's suggesting that.
Quote from: BenI'll be pulling for the asteroid.
+1
Quote from: BearLoverI think the cons outweight the pros, because we are directly competing with the others schools that benefit from this. Nationally, we may get some better recruits from the other conferences. But recruits also want to go to a program that wins. The ECAC slice of the recruit pie will increase, but Cornell's overall share I expect to stay largely the same, or increase slightly. This is more than offset by the fact we will be losing a lot more to the other ECAC teams.
I believe if we open up the pool of recruits we have a
significant advantage on Yale.
(http://www.kraftees.com/ithaca/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/Cornell%20Agriculture%20and%20Life%20Sciences%20Sticker.jpg)
I say this as a proud admittee. ;)
Quote from: TrotskyQuote from: BearLoverI think the cons outweight the pros, because we are directly competing with the others schools that benefit from this. Nationally, we may get some better recruits from the other conferences. But recruits also want to go to a program that wins. The ECAC slice of the recruit pie will increase, but Cornell's overall share I expect to stay largely the same, or increase slightly. This is more than offset by the fact we will be losing a lot more to the other ECAC teams.
I believe if we open up the pool of recruits we have a significant advantage on Yale.
(http://www.kraftees.com/ithaca/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/Cornell%20Agriculture%20and%20Life%20Sciences%20Sticker.jpg)
I say this as a proud admittee. ;)
No. Two reasons:
1. Yale is better at hockey now; and
2. (http://www.islamophobiatoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Yale-logo.jpg)
Felix's standard order of cheering
Cornell
Ivys sans Harvard
ECAC Teams (hockey only)
Harvard
Any other non merit scholarship team
All other schools sorted by distance from my current home in Somerville
This space reserved for schools with no actual principles (Kentucky, Duke, Penn State)
I don't think this is good for Cornell. Prospects want to play for good teams, not bad teams in good conferences (and until we prove otherwise, we're a bad team). If anything, this will make things harder on Cornell. If a prospect is getting recruited by Cornell and Yale, why go to Cornell when he can go to another Ivy that was just in the national championship game? Also, look at the SEC. Has their recent success benefited any team other than Alabama, LSU, and, to a lesser extent, Georgia and Florida? Tennessee, Kentucky, Vanderbilt, Ole Miss, and Miss State are still bad or mediocre at best. Even Auburn, two years removed from a national championship, and Arkansas, a preseason top 10, did terrible this past year.
No need to repeat what Greg said. I'll just add that Cornell is hardly "a 9th place team" from the perspective of a recruit: Cornell has been the most consistently good team in the conference over the past decade and a half: one off year doesn't change that. By virtue of attracting recruits that would previously not have returned the calls of ECAC recruiters, a stronger conference will definitely benefit the strongest teams in the conference: Yale, Union, Quinnipiac, Cornell, and (yes) Harvard.
Quote from: Kyle RoseNo need to repeat what Greg said. I'll just add that Cornell is hardly "a 9th place team" from the perspective of a recruit: Cornell has been the most consistently good team in the conference over the past decade and a half: one off year doesn't change that. By virtue of attracting recruits that would previously not have returned the calls of ECAC recruiters, a stronger conference will definitely benefit the strongest teams in the conference: Yale, Union, Quinnipiac, Cornell, and (yes) Harvard.
But not necessarily equally.
The world turned upside down.
ALL ECAC, BITCHES.
I now officially don't give a shit who wins on Saturday. Let the partying begin two days early!
I expect those of you who are happy about this to do this chant on Saturday (except, obviously, with the appropriate letters): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6NIDlddJHY
Quote from: Kyle RoseALL ECAC, BITCHES.
It is unfortunate you derive such pleasure from something that will ultimately hurt Cornell, and gloat about it here when most of us do not see it as you do. There is, once again,
nothing to suggest this will benefit Cornell in any way. The only thing for certain is that Cornell Hockey, long the class of the league, the program that has so many times come up just short of a championship, will sit in the shadow of one of its biggest nemeses for the foreseeable future, and you, as a supposed Cornell fan,
rooted for it to happen.
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseALL ECAC, BITCHES.
It is unfortunate you derive such pleasure from something that will ultimately hurt Cornell, blah blah blah blah blah blah
Get over it. Yale and Quinnipiac (and Union) losing this year would not in any way help Cornell stop sucking. That change has to happen at home.
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseALL ECAC, BITCHES.
It is unfortunate you derive such pleasure from something that will ultimately hurt Cornell, blah blah blah blah blah blah
Get over it. Yale and Quinnipiac (and Union) losing this year would not in any way help Cornell stop sucking. That change has to happen at home.
Stop talking in extremes. Cornell doesn't suck. Nothing short of winning a championship is going to undo this damage, and that task just got considerably harder.
Quote from: Jordan 04Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: Jordan 04An all-ECAC final is a nice shove-it in the face of HE and WCHA fans, but it's definitely a tough pill to swallow that a non-Cornell ECAC team will win the title after all we've been through the last 10 years.
Play better. "All we've been through" (oh, the humanity!) does not win games.
Not sure what "oh, the humanity!" means.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=F54rqDh2mWA#t=45s
In this context, it's a sarcastic response to the suicidal travails of Cornell fans who've suffered through (wait, let me pull out the world's smallest violin) the winningest ten-year rolling NCAA record of any ECAC team in two decades. Yeah, I want a national championship, too. And a pony. Maybe Yale or Q breaking the seal will make that possible. If anything, we helped make it possible for them to achieve this historic 24-year goal on Saturday. My hat's off to the winner.
(http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server3900/986f6/products/108/images/554/want_pony_tee__77276.1327087242.1280.1280.jpg)
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseALL ECAC, BITCHES.
It is unfortunate you derive such pleasure from something that will ultimately hurt Cornell, blah blah blah blah blah blah
Get over it. Yale and Quinnipiac (and Union) losing this year would not in any way help Cornell stop sucking. That change has to happen at home.
Stop talking in extremes. Cornell doesn't suck. Nothing short of winning a championship is going to undo this damage, and that task just got considerably harder.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llmp5kTySO1qcppf0o1_500.jpg)
Quote from: Kyle RoseI now officially don't give a shit who wins on Saturday. Let the partying begin two days early!
This.
Everybody in CT and PA has my permission to go on a three-day drinking binge.
When the clock strikes midnight Saturday, it's back to fuck both Yale and Q. Until then, New Haven über alles.
Glass half empty, huh?
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseALL ECAC, BITCHES.
It is unfortunate you derive such pleasure from something that will ultimately hurt Cornell, blah blah blah blah blah blah
Get over it. Yale and Quinnipiac (and Union) losing this year would not in any way help Cornell stop sucking. That change has to happen at home.
Stop talking in extremes. Cornell doesn't suck. Nothing short of winning a championship is going to undo this damage, and that task just got considerably harder.
It's going to get even harder because the airlines are starting to charge by the pound and our useless fatass coach won't take any sign short of "free lifetime Ben and Jerry's." So how do we Free Willy?
Not even the sign of a championship game between two teams in our own league who were built from the ground up in less time than it took us to adjust to the ever changing game. No, instead we're stuck with slow, fat pylons, and pussy dumbfuck Canadiens who flop all over the ice, and Happy Gilmore players that board and nut shot because thats the only way they can "compete". Fuck our team, our coach, and the people on this board that think Cornell is in any way, shape, or form, competitive anymore. We had 15 years and couldnt crack the championship game, here are two teams that just went out and fucking did it. The ECAC deserved better than us, and thankfully, it got it, and it is so very appropriate that it was NOT US.
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseALL ECAC, BITCHES.
It is unfortunate you derive such pleasure from something that will ultimately hurt Cornell, blah blah blah blah blah blah
Get over it. Yale and Quinnipiac (and Union) losing this year would not in any way help Cornell stop sucking. That change has to happen at home.
Stop talking in extremes. Cornell doesn't suck. Nothing short of winning a championship is going to undo this damage, and that task just got considerably harder.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llmp5kTySO1qcppf0o1_500.jpg)
I'm sorry, but what do you hope to accomplish with this post? "I have no argument so I'll make a [failed] attempt at internet wit"? Am I supposed to be angry or sad or offended or something? I honestly have no reaction to this post, and I don't think anyone finds it funny. I'm all for trolling people, but at least be a good troll. You and Trotsky can post as many times about how happy this makes you, but you still have failed to convince anyone that this is ultimately good for Cornell. I'll be generous and say that materially, the ECAC's success this year is a toss-up for Cornell. Not from an emotional/psychological perspective, though. From that standpoint, this absolutely sucks.
I'm done here. I don't know if I convinced anyone, but at least I didn't have to resort to gloating or goading. Hoping for some sort of "Don't let the door hit you..." post to further prove my point.
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseALL ECAC, BITCHES.
It is unfortunate you derive such pleasure from something that will ultimately hurt Cornell, and gloat about it here when most of us do not see it as you do. [/i]
Just curious. Why do you think "most of us" are not happy with ECAC teams winning? From my perspective I would bet that the majority of the long term posters on this board would be pulling for ECAC teams, particularly since that's been the general consensus around here at NCAA time for a decade. Was there a poll about this that I missed?
WEll, an ECAC team is going to win this year and we'll have the effects of that (good or bad) whether we weanted them or not. Though I guess we can argue ad infinitum about whether our future success (or lack thereof) is due to this momenttous event.
Quote from: dbilmesWhile I don't disagree with the Cornell fans who say what's good for the ECAC is good for Cornell, on an emotional level, I simply can not bring myself to root for Q. I watched every minute of our three-game playoff series against them, and after being subjected to their front-running fans, their annoying thundersticks, the blaring music in their arena and the 25 minutes it took me to exit the parking lot after Game 1 -- not to mention their rub-it-in-your face behavior in their 10-0 rout of us --I simply can not root for them under any circumstances. I am also sick of reading stories about them every day in the local newspapers here in CT.
This. I hope Yale beats them 10-0.
Quote from: KeithKWEll, an ECAC team is going to win this year and we'll have the effects of that (good or bad) whether we weanted them or not.
Yup: there's nothing I could do about it even if I agreed with ButtLover. At this point, IMO it would be fine if both Q and Yale lost; fortunately for the ECAC, that is not a possible outcome.
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseALL ECAC, BITCHES.
It is unfortunate you derive such pleasure from something that will ultimately hurt Cornell, blah blah blah blah blah blah
Get over it. Yale and Quinnipiac (and Union) losing this year would not in any way help Cornell stop sucking. That change has to happen at home.
Stop talking in extremes. Cornell doesn't suck. Nothing short of winning a championship is going to undo this damage, and that task just got considerably harder.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llmp5kTySO1qcppf0o1_500.jpg)
I'm sorry, but what do you hope to accomplish with this post? "I have no argument so I'll make a [failed] attempt at internet wit"? Am I supposed to be angry or sad or offended or something? I honestly have no reaction to this post, and I don't think anyone finds it funny. I'm all for trolling people, but at least be a good troll. You and Trotsky can post as many times about how happy this makes you, but you still have failed to convince anyone that this is ultimately good for Cornell. I'll be generous and say that materially, the ECAC's success this year is a toss-up for Cornell. Not from an emotional/psychological perspective, though. From that standpoint, this absolutely sucks.
I'm done here. I don't know if I convinced anyone, but at least I didn't have to resort to gloating or goading. Hoping for some sort of "Don't let the door hit you..." post to further prove my point.
Don't listen to these morons. They are the same 10 people circle jerking each other. If it makes you feel any better they are a running joke amongst the Frozen Four crowd, they sit by themselves, no one wants to talk to them, and insist on injecting Cornell into every discussion no matter how inappropriate. No one outside this forum takes them seriously, and you would do much better if you just find other intelligent college hockey fans, we are out there.
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: KeithKWEll, an ECAC team is going to win this year and we'll have the effects of that (good or bad) whether we weanted them or not.
Yup: there's nothing I could do about it even if I agreed with ButtLover. At this point, IMO it would be fine if both Q and Yale lost; fortunately for the ECAC, that is not a possible outcome.
Well, that just seems uncalled for. Also, somewhat homophobic.
The most remarkable thing about the 2013 bizarro tournament is that the ECAC will be perfect out of conference. It will go 8-2 with loses only in the two ECAC v. ECAC games. When's the last time a conference has pulled that off? [For the Q doubters, this sets up nicely. They struggled to beat Canisius, beat 4 seed SCSU, and played two EZAC schools. Not exactly murderers row.] Also amazing: If Michigan beat Cornell back in November, Yale's season would have ended in AC.
Also, has a team that lost to AIC ever played for (or won) a title?
I'm happy about the all-ECAC final. Do I wish Cornell was there? Sure. Am I bitter about what might have been in the many near misses Cornell's had in the past decade? Sure. Do I resent the "easy" success Yale and Q have had at least a little bit? Sure. But 24 years is too long between titles for this conference and it's about time some respect was restored even if Cornell won't do it. If ECAC schools win 3 or 4 of the next 10-12 titles, I'll be more comfortable being discerning about what ECAC schools I'm ok with winning. In the meantime, go ECAC.
The elephant in the room in all of this is the institutional recruiting advantages Q and Y now have, and have had for a while now, national titles or no national titles. Q is an 18 scholarship team with no academic standards to speak of and facilities that attract recruits (even if they drive many of us nuts). They pour money into athletics, buy TV time, and run their program like a pro franchise. Their recruiting pool is always going to be larger. Yale (and H and P for that matter) now have de facto athletic scholarships for recruits from middle class backgrounds. I think I read somewhere in the CT media love-fest this week that families making $80k or less pay $0 for Yale and it's a sliding scale after that. Cornell doesn't have those resources and may never given the size of the student body. While it will match packages from HYP, it can't do anything for a kid who needs the financial help and can't get into HYP. It's not a great position to be in for Cornell's recruiting approach to have to be "we want you to come here. Now go apply to HYP and when you get in, we'll get you a free ride here."
HYP have an enormous financial aid advantage right now over Cornell, Brown, and Dartmouth. Cornell has history, tradition, etc., which is great. But eventually money talks.
Quote from: jtn27Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: KeithKWEll, an ECAC team is going to win this year and we'll have the effects of that (good or bad) whether we weanted them or not.
Yup: there's nothing I could do about it even if I agreed with ButtLover. At this point, IMO it would be fine if both Q and Yale lost; fortunately for the ECAC, that is not a possible outcome.
Well, that just seems uncalled for. Also, somewhat homophobic.
These guys (and gals) are utterly defeated with tonight's results. They have no rational defense, what do you expect?
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: KeithKWEll, an ECAC team is going to win this year and we'll have the effects of that (good or bad) whether we weanted them or not.
Yup: there's nothing I could do about it even if I agreed with ButtLover. At this point, IMO it would be fine if both Q and Yale lost; fortunately for the ECAC, that is not a possible outcome.
Are you 5? And yeah, fortunately for the ECAC, unfortunately for Cornell.
ScrewBU might be a "troll," but he is raises some good points:
-the top posters on this forum are not representative of the average Cornell fan, and definitely not of the students
-there is a tremendous amount of circle jerking between the established posters here
-if you disagree with the established posters, you are labeled a troll
Quote from: Chris '03The most remarkable thing about the 2013 bizarro tournament is that the ECAC will be perfect out of conference. It will go 8-2 with loses only in the two ECAC v. ECAC games. When's the last time a conference has pulled that off? [For the Q doubters, this sets up nicely. They struggled to beat Canisius, beat 4 seed SCSU, and played two EZAC schools. Not exactly murderers row.] Also amazing: If Michigan beat Cornell back in November, Yale's season would have ended in AC.
Also, has a team that lost to AIC ever played for (or won) a title?
I'm happy about the all-ECAC final. Do I wish Cornell was there? Sure. Am I bitter about what might have been in the many near misses Cornell's had in the past decade? Sure. Do I resent the "easy" success Yale and Q have had at least a little bit? Sure. But 24 years is too long between titles for this conference and it's about time some respect was restored even if Cornell won't do it. If ECAC schools win 3 or 4 of the next 10-12 titles, I'll be more comfortable being discerning about what ECAC schools I'm ok with winning. In the meantime, go ECAC.
The elephant in the room in all of this is the institutional recruiting advantages Q and Y now have, and have had for a while now, national titles or no national titles. Q is an 18 scholarship team with no academic standards to speak of and facilities that attract recruits (even if they drive many of us nuts). They pour money into athletics, buy TV time, and run their program like a pro franchise. Their recruiting pool is always going to be larger. Yale (and H and P for that matter) now have de facto athletic scholarships for recruits from middle class backgrounds. I think I read somewhere in the CT media love-fest this week that families making $80k or less pay $0 for Yale and it's a sliding scale after that. Cornell doesn't have those resources and may never given the size of the student body. While it will match packages from HYP, it can't do anything for a kid who needs the financial help and can't get into HYP. It's not a great position to be in for Cornell's recruiting approach to have to be "we want you to come here. Now go apply to HYP and when you get in, we'll get you a free ride here."
HYP have an enormous financial aid advantage right now over Cornell, Brown, and Dartmouth. Cornell has history, tradition, etc., which is great. But eventually money talks.
Of course, since a team is better than us here comes the "no academic standards" argument. YOU ARE A FUCKING DISGRACE AND SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF, FIND THE NEAREST GORGE AND JUMP, OR THE NEAREST TAILPIPE AND TAKE A SWEET, SWEET DEEP BREATH. Here is the counter argument that Hockey East has dealt with for the last 10 years. Wouldn't Maine and UNH have taken advantage of this? What about all those amazing players that just couldn't cut it academically? JVR? Joey Diamond? Has that EVER worked out for a single team? IT HASN'T. EVER. I hope you get rectal cancer and spend all of Daddys trust fund trying to stop the shit coming from your mouth and ass.
Quote from: BearLoverI don't speak for every Cornell fan apparently, but I definitely speak for that far majority of them when I say that Yale or Q winning it all is the closest thing possible to being punched in the balls short of Harvard winning.
(emphasis mine)
Is that a fact? I'd love to take a look at your data results and examine your survey methodology. Of course, I am assuming you adequately surveyed the ~4,000 or so Cornell fans who attend games at Lynah regularly in a given season (not to mention an unspecified number of out-of-town Cornell fans who follow the team) in order to make such a bold assertion as to claim to "definitely speak" for a "far majority" of Cornell fans.
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: KeithKWEll, an ECAC team is going to win this year and we'll have the effects of that (good or bad) whether we weanted them or not.
Yup: there's nothing I could do about it even if I agreed with ButtLover. At this point, IMO it would be fine if both Q and Yale lost; fortunately for the ECAC, that is not a possible outcome.
Are you 5? And yeah, fortunately for the ECAC, unfortunately for Cornell.
ScrewBU might be a "troll," but he is raises some good points:
-the top posters on this forum are not representative of the average Cornell fan, and definitely not of the students
-there is a tremendous amount of circle jerking between the established posters here
-if you disagree with the established posters, you are labeled a troll
So you're criticising Kyle's name calling (and rightly so) and then using similar imagery to describe the established posters here? Nice!
Of course the established posters here are not representative of the average Cornell fan. They are a self-selected set of people who are so interested in Cornell hockey that they spend large amounts of time reading and posting to this board. They also tend to ave been around for many years, which means that they are alums and often older alums and thus not surprisingly aren't representative of the current students.
I'm not going to claim that there aren't some unwarranted accusations of "troll" thrown out on occasion (just like there have been some genuine trolls). But mostly this place is a pretty rasonable environment for disussion even of dissenting views. I for one am happy to hear 'em even if I may waste lots of time typing up counter arguments.
I think BearLover's arguments are being given too little credence. It's interesting that most serious posters, by which I guess I mean long-time posters whom I would usually agree with, are on the other side of the debate. (In the context of this discussion only, I might almost say Very Serious Posters, but I suppose that's not really fair.)
Have we really been losing that many recruits because the league has been perceived to be weak? Someone who knows can set me straight. It seems we lose more to academic standards and financial concerns. Would we really be in a stronger recruiting position when other ECAC (let alone Ivy) schools are as strong or stronger than us, when we are not uniquely (with a partial allowance for Harvard) the school with academic standards, a historically strong program, and a great atmosphere (admittedly not quite what it used to be)? I would rather be the big school in a small pond--meaning big enough to compete at the highest level--as opposed to one of a number of ECAC schools, competitive and good, but from which we do not stand out.
Whatever the actual benefits, and I think they're overstated if not possibly negligible or negative, and while at some academic level I want to see the league do well, emotionally I, too, don't really have a good feeling about tonight's developments.
I want Cornell to be the one to win a championship. If we now do it in the near future, it will be less special. I want Cornell to be unique. I wonder what Schafer and the players think--not lip service to it being great for the league, but truly? I wouldn't be surprised if it's a little like the feelings I'm expressing here.
I used to be strongly for my league when my team was eliminated (for example, the NL in MLB). In recent decades, I've kind of lost that attitude. In baseball, I now say at the time of the World Series, I wish it would rain until spring training (ignoring the existence of stadiums with domes). Here, I could say I wish ice would not stay frozen. I used to be for the team that eliminated my team; I still have that preference to some extent. I used to hate the Yankees. In more recent times, as that waned, I'm just as happy if they win rather than some team I feel more competitive with--one more win just gets lost in the mix. In the same way, it would not bother me if Michigan, say, won another, whereas Yale winning is too close to home. Quinnipiac bothers me less because one can at least say they have lower academic standards and scholarships.
While it seems long ago now, I actually rooted hard for Harvard's championship team. But I thought that was an admirable team in many ways and always liked Lane MacDonald and Bourbeau as well.
Quote from: Chuck HendersonI think BearLover's arguments are being given too little credence. It's interesting that most serious posters, by which I guess I mean long-time posters whom I would usually agree with, are on the other side of the debate. (In the context of this discussion only, I might almost say Very Serious Posters, but I suppose that's not really fair.)
Have we really been losing that many recruits because the league has been perceived to be weak? Someone who knows can set me straight. It seems we lose more to academic standards and financial concerns. Would we really be in a stronger recruiting position when other ECAC (let alone Ivy) schools are as strong or stronger than us, when we are not uniquely (with a partial allowance for Harvard) the school with academic standards, a historically strong program, and a great atmosphere (admittedly not quite what it used to be)? I would rather be the big school in a small pond--meaning big enough to compete at the highest level--as opposed to one of a number of ECAC schools, competitive and good, but from which we do not stand out.
Whatever the actual benefits, and I think they're overstated if not possibly negligible or negative, and while at some academic level I want to see the league do well, emotionally I, too, don't really have a good feeling about tonight's developments.
I want Cornell to be the one to win a championship. If we now do it in the near future, it will be less special. I want Cornell to be unique. I wonder what Schafer and the players think--not lip service to it being great for the league, but truly? I wouldn't be surprised if it's a little like the feelings I'm expressing here.
I used to be strongly for my league when my team was eliminated (for example, the NL in MLB). In recent decades, I've kind of lost that attitude. In baseball, I now say at the time of the World Series, I wish it would rain until spring training (ignoring the existence of stadiums with domes). Here, I could say I wish ice would not stay frozen. I used to be for the team that eliminated my team; I still have that preference to some extent. I used to hate the Yankees. In more recent times, as that waned, I'm just as happy if they win rather than some team I feel more competitive with--one more win just gets lost in the mix. In the same way, it would not bother me if Michigan, say, won another, whereas Yale winning is too close to home. Quinnipiac bothers me less because one can at least say they have lower academic standards and scholarships.
While it seems long ago now, I actually rooted hard for Harvard's championship team. But I thought that was an admirable team in many ways and always liked Lane MacDonald and Bourbeau as well.
Thank you for the support, and very well said. It's sad, but I really do not see this as a good thing for Cornell Hockey at all. And emotionally, this really stinks.
I'd rather be a big fish in a small pond than just a regular fish in a pond where another fish is champion.
Seriously? Name-calling, taunting, flames, etc. -- this is what this thread has devolved into? I get that you're all passionate and emotional, but come on, this is the kind of crap that ruins practically every USCHO thread out there. The possibility that I share the label "Cornell hockey fan" with some of the posters in this thread (on both sides of whatever argument this is) is more embarrassing than anything the Big Red has done over the last however-many years.
(Cue predictable responses)
Yeah, I'm not sure why Kyle felt the need to take a reasonable conversation on the pros and cons of the situation and devolve it into a string of name-calling and trite, meaningless internet memes.
I'm surprised he didn't find room for a "tl;dr" or an animated .gif.
Definitely not the thread-turn I expected this morning.
Quote from: jtn27Well, that just seems uncalled for. Also, somewhat homophobic.
You must be new to the internet. I was just baiting him because it felt like a good flamewar was in order after all the pissing and moaning.
Quote from: ScrewBUDon't listen to these morons. They are the same 10 people circle jerking each other.
Success!
Quote from: BearLoverScrewBU might be a "troll," but he is raises some good points:
-the top posters on this forum are not representative of the average Cornell fan, and definitely not of the students
-there is a tremendous amount of circle jerking between the established posters here
-if you disagree with the established posters, you are labeled a troll
Shockingly, I agree with you: most of the time,
I am arguing the unpopular viewpoint, which is part of the reason I don't post much anymore. However, if you have been reading the whole thread, this is not an instance in which groupthink has taken over: if anything, I think Greg and I are in the minority here.
Quote from: Chuck HendersonI think BearLover's arguments are being given too little credence.
Upon a night's reflection, I think you are right. I still don't agree with you, but I do think I dismissed his arguments too quickly in the euphoria of the moment. Ultimately, only time will tell whether this is net-positive for Cornell. What I want you all to consider is what "net-positive" means.
To me, that isn't winning a greater percentage of ECAC championships, as fun as those are: it's winning more at the national level, against teams from historically stronger conferences. Ultimately, that is why I want a stronger ECAC, so Cornell plays nationally-competitive teams every weekend, not just in 4-5 non-conference games per year. I wanted the Brown/Yale/Union/Dartmouth/Princeton/Quinnipiac games not to be a joke and to be more than an opportunity to completely fuck up our PWR. Well... success!
Getting a look from recruits who previously would have hit "delete" on that voicemail from ECAC recruiters will help us compete more consistently at the national level at precisely the time when big money is moving into D1 hockey... but it is only necessary, not sufficient. "Necessary" means a strong ECAC is better for Cornell, if Cornell takes care of the other stuff. Fix the other stuff.
To that end, I'll repeat my earlier objection to the beggar-thy-neighbor viewpoint. Cornell has to take care of business at home. The reason Cornell finished 9th in the ECAC this year wasn't a talent deficit relative to the rest of the league: you can't look at our recruits and honestly come to that conclusion. That leaves coaching, culture, and luck. (I guess real fans blame it all on bad luck?) The reason Cornell has been schooled by Yale for the past half-decade isn't an individual talent deficit. It's that
Yale plays better hockey, full stop. That has to be addressed by the coaching staff.
Were you guys watching the Yale power play yesterday? Unbelievable the way they move that puck around. Cornell's PP is a fucking joke by comparison, or it would be if it weren't the culmination of a decade of facepalm on that front. At times it I felt like I was watching the 2003 semifinal, with UML as Cornell—a bunch of trees playing a defensive game against a much faster team—except in this version, they were getting creamed on the stat sheet despite keeping the game close on the scoreboard. IMO, it's not good to play on your heels for an entire game. I think the problem versus Yale is more in there than in any talent deficit. Consequently, I am increasingly willing to entertain the notion that Cornell's system is just broken in 2013.
Quote from: Chuck HendersonI would rather be the big school in a small pond--meaning big enough to compete at the highest level--as opposed to one of a number of ECAC schools, competitive and good, but from which we do not stand out.
...
I want Cornell to be the one to win a championship. If we now do it in the near future, it will be less special. I want Cornell to be unique.
Unfortunately, I would argue that it is precisely this attitude that kept Cornell from going all the way back in the early-mid 00's: we did great in our pond, but then hit the brick wall of more talented teams playing a faster game. Incredibly, we won a lot of those, but not enough in a row. I've been arguing for a decade for better competition all around, and now we've got it. Let's see if the coaching staff can figure out how to play consistently well against consistently better competition.
The pond is getting bigger whether you like it or not. Deal with it, instead of pining for the good old days.
Chris, too bad there's no Like button so we can sophomorically enthuse over what you said with a single click. You hit it right on the head.
1. What's the medical condition for when a person can't stand the success of other people? I mean, other than "fan."
2. ECAC has been down so long, since 1985 (RPI) and 1989 (Harvard) titles, that we needed this. Sure, it gives advantages to Yale and Quinnipiac in recruiting. The ECAC-only final gives advantages to the other 10 teams who can tell recruits they're playing in a real league. We need to follow up with frozen four entrants the next couple years and at least one more title so it's less of a fluke season.
3. We had our chances in 2002 2003 in the NCAA semis and Leneveau let in a soft goal and we took a late penalty but why obsess on that? (As I just did.) And we came close to sneaking in a couple years ago, too.
4. Quinnipiac has the advantage of an incredible rink. Fair-weather students will show up more. They're going to wish they'd built a 6,000-seat rink. This facility is a huge plus for the ECAC.
5. The ECAC needs to be nationally commpetitive, say the top five teams, not just one or two, to keep Q in the fold. Can you see Hockey East chatting up Q?
It's too bad the title game schools are both in Connecticut because the storyline will be All-Connecticut Final rather than All-ECAC Final. Union vs. Quinnipiac, that I'd have like better except my rooting preferences are Ivy League over anyone else.
One other thing:
Quote from: BearLoverin 2010 we only won the ECAC because Yale got upset earlier
Time is the great clarifier. I recall the shitstorm I created here for saying exactly the same thing back in 2010.
http://elf.elynah.com/read.php?1,159008,159046#msg-159046
Quote from: Kyle RoseNo need to repeat what Greg said. I'll just add that Cornell is hardly "a 9th place team" from the perspective of a recruit: Cornell has been the most consistently good team in the conference over the past decade and a half: one off year doesn't change that. By virtue of attracting recruits that would previously not have returned the calls of ECAC recruiters, a stronger conference will definitely benefit the strongest teams in the conference: Yale, Union, Quinnipiac, Cornell, and (yes) Harvard.
Yeah, this "bad" team stuff is such nonsense. Recruits surely recognize our long-term success, the Lynah experience, etc. Having stronger ECAC programs will only be good for us IMO.
Hey, I'm just popping in to see what the discussion would be like after last night's results and OH MY GOD WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED IN HERE??? Clean up this mess, all of you!
Sorry, parenting reflex.
Seriously, stop poking your sister. Don't make me come back there.
Quote from: Chuck HendersonIn the context of this discussion only, I might almost say Very Serious Posters, but I suppose that's not really fair.
Krugman
is a Yale alum. ;)
I hope eLF never becomes a place where new posters feel they can't make a point unless they have 2000 posts.
BUT. At the same time, a poster can't just make the same emotionally-charged statement 20 times in a row and then claim it's a circle jerk because people aren't converted to the One True Faith. The appropriate response to not convincing somebody of your argument is to (1) refine your argument or (2) ascribe it to a matter of taste and move on.
We get that there are people who will never root for ECAC teams in the NCAAs. We understand their arguments. We simply do not agree with them. After a while, the repetition of the same sentiment over and over and over again becomes browbeating -- a strategy that doesn't often work anywhere and particularly not on a forum where the vast majority of posters are intelligent, highly educated, and self-confident in their powers of perception and reason.
At the end of the day we are Cornell hockey fans. We can enjoy that and try to respect our occasional differences, or we can subdivide into, say, which NHL team we root for, and then rip each other to shreds like George and Martha after a bottle of scotch.
Quote from: billhoward3. We had our chances in 2002 in the NCAA semis and Leneveau let in a soft goal and we took a late penalty but why obsess on that? (As I just did.)
If you're going to obsess get the goddamn year right. ;)
Quote from: Kyle RoseWere you guys watching the Yale power play yesterday? Unbelievable the way they move that puck around. Cornell's PP is a fucking joke by comparison, or it would be if it weren't the culmination of a decade of facepalm on that front. At times it I felt like I was watching the 2003 semifinal, with UML as Cornell—a bunch of trees playing a defensive game against a much faster team—except in this version, they were getting creamed on the stat sheet despite keeping the game close on the scoreboard.
The fact that it was
Yale does shake one of the foundational assumptions of post-80s Cornell hockey: that for an Ivy to compete nationally they have to have a defense-first system because blue chip offensive players will
always go to CHL or the Factory Schools. Yale is a direct and dramatic refutation of that axiom.
I love Schafer for saving the program in the mid-90s and I'll never be able to shake that loyalty, but if I were anti-Schafer or just young and craving a run and gun style, that's where I'd start to make my argument for change.
The other thing that has been noticeable throughout the NCAAs is that Union, Yale and Q all played like they were having a blast out there. It wasn't "creativity" -- Union for instance isn't creative at all, they're just a solid team. But they had the "Leadership and Passion" of our '02-'08 teams. Meanwhile, in recent seasons, even when Cornell was winning, they played like they were skating in psychological cement. It looked like a job, and a not very rewarding one.
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: BearLoverIt is unfortunate you derive such pleasure from something that will ultimately hurt Cornell, blah blah blah blah blah blah
Stop talking in extremes. Cornell doesn't suck. Nothing short of winning a championship is going to undo this damage, and that task just got considerably harder.
Strongly disagree with your basic premise. Go Yale!
The biggest hurdle Cornell hockey faces in the ECAC is the same one that Cornell basketball will face in the long term in basketball: HYP are now basically scholarship programs with very high academic standards. The only players who can't get scholarships don't really need them anyway. The more academic-minded exceptions will take scholarships from comparable non-Ivies. Full stop. The difference between Yale and Harvard is the distance between what Ted Donato's potential and Ted Donato's results. The difference between H/Y and Princeton appears to be caring enough to want to win. Yale has had our number - but our overall results in the last 5 years have been on par with Yale's, the last three weeks aside.
Cornell had a bad year (with flashes of very good) one year removed from being a goal away from the Final Four. Somehow that has translated into Cornell developing a reputation as a "9th place team". This year Kentucky lost in the first round of the NIT; next year they are bringing in 6 players currently ranked in the top 20.
Cornell had so many chances in the 2000s. That they didn't win is a huge disappointment, but how close did we come? We lost to UNH in the 2002 semis on a bad no-goal call on Hynes and a miracle save in the final minute on Baby. We lost OT games on the road against Minnesota and Wisconsin. We lost a one goal game to FSU LAST YEAR. THIS HAS BEEN AN ELITE PROGRAM. One weak year - that included coming 64 seconds shy of knocking an NCAA finalist out in the conference QF - is not the death of the program.
In a nutshell, I want the other ECAC schools to be better than garbage. We will lose more but it will be nice when every loss doesn't drop you 8 places in the PWR because your SOS is flaming garbage to begin with. It will be more fun to win a competitive league. The competition in the Big 10 makes it more likely that Minnesota, Michigan, MSU, Wisconsin, tOSU and eventually Penn State will win national titles, not less, and that's where I want to see the ECAC.
Quote from: Chris '03While it will match packages from HYP, it can't do anything for a kid who needs the financial help and can't get into HYP. It's not a great position to be in for Cornell's recruiting approach to have to be "we want you to come here. Now go apply to HYP and when you get in, we'll get you a free ride here."
HYP have an enormous financial aid advantage right now over Cornell, Brown, and Dartmouth. Cornell has history, tradition, etc., which is great. But eventually money talks.
Whereas, being a historian of a somewhat Marxist bent, I completely agree with the last part of your argument and worry along with you about what HYP's money advantages mean over the long term (say, 20 to 30 years) for the competitiveness of Cornell and, even, the coherence of the Ivy League, I do have a quibble with the other 'graph.
Cornell has seemed to attract, from what I've heard and seen, great hockey players who are interested in pursuing a major within the purview of one of the statutory colleges and those whose families are either quite poor or quite rich. Due to a number of connected factors that I will choose not to go into here, players interested in the statutory colleges are unlikely to look elsewhere in the League, ECAC or Ivy. Those are our recruits to lose; yet, if we lose them, we do so to Michigan State, Ohio State, and the like rather than to the other League schools. That has always been the case, but I would hazard a guess that a better profile for the league might help us grab a few more of those recruits. (Indeed, we should do
much better with in-state recruits than we have historically—as a proud product of upstate New York, it's something that has
always bothered me.) The others, whose families are either quite poor and the quite rich, might very well look at the other Ivys; indeed, I'm sure the academically gifted ones always have, but we'll always get our share of them and we'll pick up the ones who are not academically gifted enough to attend Harvard, Yale, or Princeton. With Yale's recent success, we might lose out on some truly academically gifted recruits whose families are either rich or poor, but how many of those are there anyway? Have we really lost many? Will we?
So, what you're probably rolling over in your head is what this means for recruiting players whose families fit into the lower middle class or upper lower class, who, previous to these financial efforts from Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, were just royally screwed. If academically talented, they're now in the same boat as the quite poor and the quite rich; if not, they're still royally screwed. It's too bad that we can't make the same commitments that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton can, but the financial resources are not there. So, we'll continue to lose the less academically gifted recruits to scholarship schools as we always have; indeed, if they don't pick up a scholarship somewhere, they're heading to major junior.
But the academically gifted students whose families fall into the right economic category are now open to recruitment, in a financial sense, from
all the Ivys. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the agreement means that Cornell can offer the same exact package, should it choose, that Harvard, Yale, or Princeton offers; i.e., neither Cornell nor any of those three can "sweeten the pot." These players were simply off the table before.
How does this mean anything else than an enormous enlargement of the recruiting pool, strengthening recruiting at any of the Ivies against any other schools? If I were coaching at RPI, Notre Dame, BC, Michigan, Colgate, BC, BU, Northeastern, Wisconsin, CC, Michigan Tech, or Penn State, this would give me pause; in particular, if I were coaching at Union or RIT, I'd be quite worried. Because, if I'm an academically gifted student, why wouldn't I try the Ivy League? Cornell's going to win its share of those recruiting battles; indeed, it might create the situation where there's quite a bit more talent to go around.
So, it's not "we want you to come here—now go apply to HYP"; it's "you're applying to HYP anyway, now let us explain to you why you fit best here." Before, it was "we'd love to have you, but we can't offer anything close to the scholarship that Michigan is offering." To put a finer point on it, for any middle-class potential student who is academically gifted and fits within the boundaries of the new financial intiatives, money
doesn't "talk."
Quote from: TrotskyThe F4 makes its annual appearance in Deadspin (http://deadspin.com/fgcu-on-ice-how-quinnipiac-created-the-no-1-hockey-te-472475765), although this one isn't as witless as usual.
Quote from: Jonathan Mahler, DeadspinWhere does hockey fit into all of this? In the mid-1990s, [Q president John] Lahey realized that Quinnipiac was missing out on the free publicity customarily lavished on successful Division I sports programs.
Free after the $53 million for the sports complex, coaching salaries, travel, equipment. The article likens the publicity to like what Florida Gulf Coast University got out of NCAA basketball. Nice that Mahler calls this the prestigious ECAC Q got admitted to.
I'm definitely in the camp that wants to see the ECAC do well in the NCAAs, although it does feel a little weird that it's Quinnipiac, Union and Yale (two of which were not even in the ECAC when I was in school, and not even Division I the last time the ECAC won a title) that made the run. I think if you replaced Union with Cornell, Yale with RPI and Q with Clarkson, it would be a little easier to rejoiced in this year's tournament run. (This is why I'm pulling for Yale on Saturday; even if they haven't done much in the NCAAs over the years, they're still a somewhat traditional ECAC program.)
While we're all disappointed it won't be Cornell breaking the ECAC national title drought, at least we won't have to hear about how Harvard was the last ECAC team to win a national title.
Quote from: jtn27I expect those of you who are happy about this to do this chant on Saturday (except, obviously, with the appropriate letters): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6NIDlddJHY
I suggested to Judy that we start the E-C-A-C chant while we were on the escalators exiting the arena. The walk to the bar last night, I reflected on how much league-pride I was feeling, and how utterly weird it is to feel that. If this is how WCHA & HEA fans feel all the time, it is pretty intoxicating.
I'm beaming the rest of my time in Pittsburgh.
And since it was 2003 not 2002, I lost the chance to say that "ironically, it was 10 years ago exactly that Cornell fell to ..." Speaking of overused words, count how many times Barry Melrose says "by far" as in "Hartzell is bar far playing his best hockey of the year" ... "by far that was the best hit" ... "by far he's the dominant defensive pairing in this tournament."
Quote from: Chuck Hendersonleague when my team was eliminated (for example, the NL in MLB). In recent decades, I've kind of lost that attitude. In baseball, I now say at the time of the World Series, I wish it would rain until spring training (ignoring the existence of stadiums with domes). Here, I could say I wish ice would not stay frozen. I used to be for the team that eliminated my team; I still have that preference to some extent. I used to hate the Yankees. In more recent times, as that waned, I'm just as happy if they win rather than some team I feel more competitive with--one more win just gets lost in the mix. In the same way, it would not bother me if Michigan, say, won another, whereas Yale winning is too close to home. Quinnipiac bothers me less because one can at least say they have lower academic standards and scholarships.
When I was a kid I think that was the dominant attidtude. You always (usually) pulled for your league in the playoffs or World Series. For instance, As a Yankees fan I saw no issues rooting for the Red Sox in '86. They were the AL East team (and I had a lot of annoying friends who were big Mets fans). Hand in hand with that was league loyalty in things like tha All Star game. I really wanted to beat those damn NLers because I was an AL fan.
Somewhere along the line this attitude changed. I think one big factor is the way media cvers sports. ESPN plays up rivalries to such a ridiculous degree. When the focus is on hating rivals it's hard to feel that sense of loyalty. There are plenty of other factors one could come up with but this is a big one that comes to mind.
In college hockey I've had twenty years of EZAC threads to build up and sustain my sense of league loyalty.
Quote from: TrotskyQuote from: Kyle RoseI now officially don't give a shit who wins on Saturday. Let the partying begin two days early!
This.
Everybody in CT and PA has my permission to go on a three-day drinking binge.
When the clock strikes midnight Saturday, it's back to fuck both Yale and Q. Until then, New Haven über alles.
This. As a CT resident in Pittsburgh, I'm obeying Trotsky's orders, and just cracked another beer. It is party time for me. I may even run into one of my neighbors:
https://twitter.com/CTConfidential/status/322736469158539264
Quote from: TrotskyThe other thing that has been noticeable throughout the NCAAs is that Union, Yale and Q all played like they were having a blast out there
Yale. 2010. Sean Backman. Swimming pool mishap. NCAAs: BC 9, Yale 7. http://www.collegehockeynews.com/news/2010/03/11_backman.php
Wow. This is embarrassing. I won't be back to this thread. Ever. If this type of posting spreads, I won't be back to eLynah, a forum I have always admired for the wit and wisdom of the posters, even when I disagreed with them.
Quote from: dag14Wow. This is embarrassing. I won't be back to this thread. Ever. If this type of posting spreads, I won't be back to eLynah, a forum I have always admired for the wit and wisdom of the posters, even when I disagreed with them.
Thank you. Although I won't go as far as you, the drift of this thread has been atrocious. I don't know which is worse, those that proclaim without any data (...that far majority..., ...most of us...) or those that respond by classic putdowns. Neither of these add anything to good discussion, but if it was a flame war you wanted, you got it. Going back to another poster's parental response, "You guys should be ashamed of yourselves".
Quote from: Jim HylaQuote from: dag14Wow. This is embarrassing. I won't be back to this thread. Ever. If this type of posting spreads, I won't be back to eLynah, a forum I have always admired for the wit and wisdom of the posters, even when I disagreed with them.
Thank you. Although I won't go as far as you, the drift of this thread has been atrocious. I don't know which is worse, those that proclaim without any data (...that far majority..., ...most of us...) or those that respond by classic putdowns. Neither of these add anything to good discussion, but if it was a flame war you wanted, you got it. Going back to another poster's parental response, "You guys should be ashamed of yourselves".
I'll take that under advisement, gramps. :-)
Quinnipiac is in deadspin again: http://deadspin.com/how-quinnipiac-tore-up-and-rewrote-new-havens-hockey-h-472545033
Want to learn how to spell Quinnipiac correctly? Do what I did and write it on $50,000 checks for four years in a row, my daughter is a graduate. Their facility is simply amazing.
Look at it this way, you're some 19 year old kid and you go see the old referb'ed barn that Cornell plays in and someone is telling you how full of history it is. Then you go to Quinnipiac and see a state of the art place with luxury dorms across the parking lot. QU has a hell of a coach with a 17 year win streak as well. QU has good academic programs and they can give you a scholarship as well. Where would you choose?
QU is an emerging school and yes there is no long tradition. I've been to a dozen games over the past five years and they are starting to get it with a pep band and Boomer the Mascot. If they win this they will have their tradition. They still need some decent cheers and a fight song.
How many of you were even alive in when Cornell last won a national championship? When I was there (Class of '83) at least I remembered watching Dryden play for the Canadians. QU's rise over the past 7 years is pretty damn impressive.
Quote from: rep2QU is an emerging school and yes there is no long tradition. I've been to a dozen games over the past five years and they are starting to get it with a pep band and Boomer the Mascot. If they win this they will have their tradition. They still need some decent cheers and a fight song.
Without mentioning (by mentioning) all the free yellow t-shirts they've been throwing around town (Sharp Edge Bistro is their "home" bar and the whole staff were wearing "Gold Rush" shirts pre-game) and the thunderstix and the cheerleaders, there was a surprise from the QU contingent yesterday, and that was that the QU band actually played a song after they scored. No idea where that came from, but it's welcome. For those of you who have never been there, their "goal song" in Hamden is one of the standard jock jamz blasted over the loudspeaker.
For all the love that the QU arena gets, I'm not on board. They've clearly decided that they want to give the community more of a pro-game, ECHL experience than a collegiate experience. Watching a game there, surrounded by all of the concrete suitable for a fallout bunker. Terrible atmosphere. Terrible transit in/out. Blah.
Here's how I see it: Since 2000, the WCHA has won 7 NCAA titles, and just one of those teams also won the MacNaughton Cup (first place in the league) - and that one was shared between CC/Denver in '05. The strength of their league lifted all their boats so far that even their 3rd and 4th place teams were capable of getting to the tournament and going on a 4-game run. Yale's and Q's runs this year may very well make it harder for Cornell to finish in first place and to win the ECAC tournament (glass half empty) but it should improve Cornell's chances of making the NCAA tournament AND being able to compete once there (glass half full). It all depends whether you value the conference or NCAA accolades more highly.
Quote from: RobbIt all depends whether you value the conference or NCAA accolades more highly.
Even if you value the conference accolades more highly (or most likely value the higher frequency) I think it's more fun when your rivals are good and you have to work hard for the titles.
Quote from: rep2Look at it this way, you're some 19 year old kid and you go see the old referb'ed barn that Cornell plays in and someone is telling you how full of history it is. Then you go to Quinnipiac and see a state of the art place with luxury dorms across the parking lot. QU has a hell of a coach with a 17 year win streak as well. QU has good academic programs and they can give you a scholarship as well. Where would you choose?
Pepperdine.
(http://faculty.pepperdine.edu/dstrong/MathDay/mc4.jpg)
Q is having a nice run. Enjoy it. If they can parlay it into multiple classes of great recruits and titles, good for them. Nearly every team in the ECAC (sorry, Brown) has at one time or another been "undeniably the next great hockey dynasty!!!11!" And of course, as we have seen it's been true every time.
Hey, just put yourselves in Clarkson's shoes. Quinnipiac or Yale will have won a national championship before them. They'll still have the "best program to never win a national title" moniker attached to their name.
"Quinnipiac spokesman John Morgan said a shuttle service that typically brings students to New Haven will be canceled Saturday night to keep students safe."
[Insert New Haven joke here.]
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-yale-quinnipiac-hockey-reaction-20130412,0,5516537.story
Every time I drive past Pepperdine I think "How can you get through in four years with the beach across the street [faith in the Lord to draw you away from temptation?]?" and "That is the best housing most students will live in until they're 30 or trust-fund babies."
Quote from: TrotskyQuote from: rep2Look at it this way, you're some 19 year old kid and you go see the old referb'ed barn that Cornell plays in and someone is telling you how full of history it is. Then you go to Quinnipiac and see a state of the art place with luxury dorms across the parking lot. QU has a hell of a coach with a 17 year win streak as well. QU has good academic programs and they can give you a scholarship as well. Where would you choose?
Pepperdine.
(http://faculty.pepperdine.edu/dstrong/MathDay/mc4.jpg)
Q is having a nice run. Enjoy it. If they can parlay it into multiple classes of great recruits and titles, good for them. Nearly every team in the ECAC (sorry, Brown) has at one time or another been "undeniably the next great hockey dynasty!!!11!" And of course, as we have seen it's been true every time.
Meh.
(http://www.ucsb.edu/images/design-2010/slideshow/4-campus-air.jpg)
Quote from: jtwcornell91Quote from: TrotskyQuote from: rep2Look at it this way, you're some 19 year old kid and you go see the old referb'ed barn that Cornell plays in and someone is telling you how full of history it is. Then you go to Quinnipiac and see a state of the art place with luxury dorms across the parking lot. QU has a hell of a coach with a 17 year win streak as well. QU has good academic programs and they can give you a scholarship as well. Where would you choose?
Pepperdine.
(http://faculty.pepperdine.edu/dstrong/MathDay/mc4.jpg)
Q is having a nice run. Enjoy it. If they can parlay it into multiple classes of great recruits and titles, good for them. Nearly every team in the ECAC (sorry, Brown) has at one time or another been "undeniably the next great hockey dynasty!!!11!" And of course, as we have seen it's been true every time.
Meh.
(http://www.ucsb.edu/images/design-2010/slideshow/4-campus-air.jpg)
Goleta!
I like our view better! Talk about thread drift!!! :-)
(http://sct.arts.cornell.edu/image_uploads/Ithaca_4_1274904313.jpg)
Quote from: Larry72I like our view better! Talk about thread drift!!! :-)
(http://sct.arts.cornell.edu/image_uploads/Ithaca_4_1274904313.jpg)
Let's remember that it is 14 degrees in that picture.
Quote from: ugarteQuote from: Larry72I like our view better! Talk about thread drift!!! :-)
(http://sct.arts.cornell.edu/image_uploads/Ithaca_4_1274904313.jpg)
Let's remember that it is 14 degrees in that picture.
celsius
Quote from: Jim HylaQuote from: ugarteQuote from: Larry72I like our view better! Talk about thread drift!!! :-)
(http://sct.arts.cornell.edu/image_uploads/Ithaca_4_1274904313.jpg)
Let's remember that it is 14 degrees in that picture.
celsius
In September.
Quote from: TrotskyQuote from: Jim HylaQuote from: ugarteQuote from: Larry72I like our view better! Talk about thread drift!!! :-)
(http://sct.arts.cornell.edu/image_uploads/Ithaca_4_1274904313.jpg)
Let's remember that it is 14 degrees in that picture.
celsius
In September.
Your point??! As someone who lives in Ithaca today, the summers are glorious!
RIT has a campus in Dubrovnik, Croatia (where Age can spend the 50 kuna he won for designing the Fighting Deerticks logo), although I've never been:
(http://www.rit.edu/news/lib/filelib/201109/dubrovnik12.jpg)
Quote from: Goleta!
Interesting that you picked the west-coast campus that rivals Cornell in its macabre obsession with its natural terrain (Cornell's gorges vs. UCSB's bluffs). Do the people who post pics of UCSB actually go to the beach in IV?
So, St. Cloud and UMass Lowell get the Hobey and Coach awards, while Yale and Q play for the championship.
Ken Schott nicely describes why this is a time to be proud. (http://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2013/apr/12/ecac-hockey-pride-with-ncaa-final-pick/)
Definitely rooting for Yale tonight. QU is too new to the scene and I like the idea of Yale beating 3 #1 seeds to take the title. Squash any nonsense about an ECAC team raising the trophy after an easy path.
Sorry, BearLover.
Quote from: ugarteDefinitely rooting for Yale tonight. QU is too new to the scene and I like the idea of Yale beating 3 #1 seeds to take the title. Squash any nonsense about an ECAC team raising the trophy after an easy path.
I knew I'd have a hard time of deciding. In the end, you can't choose who your heart roots for. I admit that I found myself rooting for Canisius to knock off QU in the 1st round. The way I phrased it to myself (and others): "Which arena would be least distasteful to see a 'National Champions' banner hanging the next time you walked through the doors?" For me, the answer is Yale. As soon as they hoisted an ECAC banner, I saw that they did a respectful job. They are the oldest existing collegiate program, with a grand collegiate arena. And it would be an extra knife-twist to Harvard. I'm OK with either winning, but I find myself pulling for Yale. Allain won't be there forever.
Quote from: RichHQuote from: ugarteDefinitely rooting for Yale tonight. QU is too new to the scene and I like the idea of Yale beating 3 #1 seeds to take the title. Squash any nonsense about an ECAC team raising the trophy after an easy path.
I knew I'd have a hard time of deciding. In the end, you can't choose who your heart roots for. I admit that I found myself rooting for Canisius to knock off QU in the 1st round. The way I phrased it to myself (and others): "Which arena would be least distasteful to see a 'National Champions' banner hanging the next time you walked through the doors?" For me, the answer is Yale. As soon as they hoisted an ECAC banner, I saw that they did a respectful job. They are the oldest existing collegiate program, with a grand collegiate arena. And it would be an extra knife-twist to Harvard. I'm OK with either winning, but I find myself pulling for Yale. Allain won't be there forever.
And you'd root for the old line country club Yankees over Rodney in Caddyshack? "I think this place is restricted, Wang, so don't tell them you're Jewish. Okay?"
Quote from: Larry72I like our view better! Talk about thread drift!!! :-)
(http://sct.arts.cornell.edu/image_uploads/Ithaca_4_1274904313.jpg)
Unfortunately, you can't see the gorgeous view
of our campus
from our campus. Score a big one for IC's tower dorms though.
Likely I'll be rooting for Yale once the game starts; right now in theory I have no preference.
Yale for me.
I'm for three quick outs for Texas A&M.
You know... I thought I'd be rooting for Yale, but suddenly I think I am pulling for Q. Maybe. I guess.
Man, I hate Connecticut.
Quote from: RichHI'm OK with either winning, but I find myself pulling for Yale. Allain won't be there forever.
Shockingly disagreeing with Rich, I am pulling for Q. I hate Allain that much.
The announcers keep ignoring the two -ECAC teams in final game part and repeating, "... two schools separated by 8 miles." Just once they could add "... and 300 SAT points."
Regardless of who you are rooting for, this is a helluva game.
Q let up in the last 5 secs of the second period and Yale scores. 1-0 after two. Boola.
Quote from: billhowardQ let up in the last 5 secs of the second period and Yale scores. 1-0 after two. Boola.
This is where Pecknold pulls Tretiak, right?
Quote from: Scersk '97Quote from: RichHI'm OK with either winning, but I find myself pulling for Yale. Allain won't be there forever.
Shockingly disagreeing with Rich, I am pulling for Q. I hate Allain that much.
The kiss of death, clearly.
Ylae 3 — QU 0
Quote from: Scersk '97Quote from: Scersk '97Quote from: RichHI'm OK with either winning, but I find myself pulling for Yale. Allain won't be there forever.
Shockingly disagreeing with Rich, I am pulling for Q. I hate Allain that much.
The kiss of death, clearly.
A hatchet nail in the coffin.
Q pulls Hartzell with 7 minutes to go, still 3-0 Yale.
The argument that Mike Schafer is past his prime, I don't buy. But the things Yale is doing - skating, skating, not dropping into a shell, attacking, that's awesome.
Yes time to change more because we are are a boring team in a game that has left us and our coach behind. watch these ecac teams that have made our conference proud, and compare it to the year we made the frozen four. borrrrring. not today, go yale and it kills me to say it but we could have been there.
The first not so great year in how many years and people want Schaefer's head? Seriously, you look foolish.
Congrats to Yale -- Great day for the Ivy League and the ECAC!! Now LGR for 2013-2014!!! It WILL be a great year!
Quote from: RedscoreYes time to change more because we are are a boring team in a game that has left us and our coach behind. watch these ecac teams that have made our conference proud, and compare it to the year we made the frozen four. borrrrring. not today, go yale and it kills me to say it but we could have been there.
There was
nothing boring about the 2003 team, and by saying so you reveal just how misguided you are.
Quote from: Scersk '97Quote from: RedscoreYes time to change more because we are are a boring team in a game that has left us and our coach behind. watch these ecac teams that have made our conference proud, and compare it to the year we made the frozen four. borrrrring. not today, go yale and it kills me to say it but we could have been there.
There was nothing boring about the 2003 team, and by saying so you reveal just how misguided you are.
I've been watching Cornell hockey for for over 30 years. The 2003 squad was plenty entertaining, altough with less flair than Yale generally exhibits. But that team was every bit as good as this Yale team, but things just didn't go our way in Buffalo.
Actually that was a boring team too. Just winning for a a while doesn't change anything, you are confused, not me. In the end that team lost because it was focused on stopping goals rather than scoring them..... Our style of Hockey has been boring for a while now. I love this school and the team but I cant watch anymore and I Don't ..
Quote from: RedscoreActually that was a boring team too. Just winning for a a while doesn't change anything, you are confused, not me. In the end that team lost because it was focused on stopping goals rather than scoring them..... Our style of Hockey has been boring for a while now. I love this school and the team but I cant watch anymore and I Don't ..
When your team is winning, you can put up with any style of play. When your team is losing, they may as well do it with style. Ditto for when you're watching a different team than your own.
Great night for the Ivies, for the ECAC. Also, it was a pretty good game to watch. So, onward to 2014 for Cornell. Philadelphia is only a little farther to drive than Buffalo.
Quote from: RedscoreI love this school and the team but I cant watch anymore and I Don't ..
For someone who can't or doesn't watch anymore, you sure do post a lot.
At least try to back up your idiocy. Try something like this:
The 2003 team had the 16th (http://collegehockeystats.net/0203/national/d1m) best offense in the nation, and the nation's best scoring differential. Of course they were focused on keeping the puck out of the net—any Schafer coached team will be—but they were pretty good at putting the puck in the net too.
Man, Hartzell looked like shit tonight. Congrats to Yale. Great run through the NCAAs after totally crapping the bed in AC and almost costing themselves a spot in the tournament.
Quote from: ugarteMan, Hartzell looked like shit tonight. Congrats to Yale. Great run through the NCAAs after totally crapping the bed in AC and almost costing themselves a spot in the tournament.
Yeah, that second goal was super soft.
Quote from: Scersk '97Quote from: ugarteMan, Hartzell looked like shit tonight.
Yeah, that second goal was super soft.
And the third! Miller could have dove through the five hole with the puck in his hand. Even the first, quirky as it was, was in part because (IMO) Hartzell had gone a little slack thinking the period was over.
Quote from: ugarteAnd the third! Miller could have dove through the five hole with the puck in his hand. Even the first, quirky as it was, was in part because (IMO) Hartzell had gone a little slack thinking the period was over.
In Barry's "O" too. Indeed, if you're Q, how can you do that after seeing how Yale beat NoDak?
And, come to think of it, they've been doing that—turning it on at the beginnings and ends of periods—for years. I'm willing to call it an Allain "thing."
Quote from: Scersk '97Quote from: RedscoreI love this school and the team but I cant watch anymore and I Don't ..
For someone who can't or doesn't watch anymore, you sure do post a lot.
At least try to back up your idiocy. Try something like this:
The 2003 team had the 16th (http://collegehockeystats.net/0203/national/d1m) best offense in the nation, and the nation's best scoring differential. Of course they were focused on keeping the puck out of the net—any Schafer coached team will be—but they were pretty good at putting the puck in the net too.
I respect your opinion, please don;t use the word idiocy, that is insulting but is also your opinion. One year out of twenty boring years? Blind squirrel finding a nut???
What many of you don't seem to realize is the game has evolved. Not only has Cornell gotten better and faster than the 2003 team, so has the rest of college hockey. Times do change and so does the game. The ECAC knows how to play defense and it really showed tonight. That was really fun to watch. Rare to see it at this level and at this time of year from most of the other leagues.
Tonight, Hartzell gave up goal two and three to Yale in eerily similar fashions to goals that CU scored in game one and game three of that series. Yale kept coming till they found those same weaknesses. And Malcolm was really solid all night. Not bad for a Yalie!
I know there are those who will be bitching about essentially nothing well into next season. Well, get over it! Some of us who've been watching and cheering for Cornell since before you were born are kind of tired of seeing the best forum in college hockey be denigrated by a small group of whiners. So, in a word, we've had enough, If you want to flame, taunt, and hurl personal insults -- that's what the USCHO "Fan" Forum is for -- go there! If you stay here and can be civil and be productive even if you disagree, then fine!
The bottom line is that some bright high school or junior players who watched ESPN tonight will find that they don't want to go to H,Y, or P...they will want to come to Cornell. And that will make all the difference! It will happen.
LGR -- I can't wait till next season begins.
Quote from: RedscoreI respect your opinion, please don;t use the word idiocy, that is insulting but is also your opinion. One year out of twenty boring years? Blind squirrel finding a nut???
Fine, how do you feel about "lunacy?" Or maybe "jealousy?" Because it really seems like you're over-the-moon for a "style" that I've
never, in all my years of watching, seen us play.
I just don't understand the hoopla over Yale's style; indeed, I find their style fun to watch too, but I also know that it's high-risk/reward. Without a bang-up goalie, as they were for some time this year and they will be next year, they're going to look very normal. Think porous WCHA team.
To me, style is immaterial: hockey isn't an art competition. Yale got it done this year; we didn't. We'll get 'em next year—when we remember how to play our style like we used to, or when our coaches tweak (not replace) our style with an eye toward perfection.
Only 6 months till next year...
Quote from: scoop85Quote from: Scersk '97Quote from: RedscoreYes time to change more because we are are a boring team in a game that has left us and our coach behind. watch these ecac teams that have made our conference proud, and compare it to the year we made the frozen four. borrrrring. not today, go yale and it kills me to say it but we could have been there.
There was nothing boring about the 2003 team, and by saying so you reveal just how misguided you are.
I've been watching Cornell hockey for for over 30 years. The 2003 squad was plenty entertaining, altough with less flair than Yale generally exhibits. But that team was every bit as good as this Yale team, but things just didn't go our way in Buffalo.
The difference that you (old) people don't understand is that Yale didn't wait until things went their way, they went out and won the fucking thing. 3OT game vs. Wisconsin, that was ours, but we waited for things to go our way. FF game vs. UNH, we did get a goal but there was a terrible call and we waited for things to go our way but they never did. That is not and should not be how things work. Fortunately for me and unfortunately for you the proof is on my side, Yale is the champion while Cornell still waits for things to go their way. Fire Schafer.
Am I the only person who really loves our style of Hockey? The vision I have of the 2003 team was not our good goal scoring, it was watching a player shoot the puck and then seeing three Cornell skaters slide into it's path as if we had four goalies. It was fantastic, and I've never seen another school be so dynamic at defense.
I'll take that over high scoring breakaway heavy games any day. 5 on 5 hockey with all the strategy that entails is where it's at. What's so interesting about a breakaway?
On another note: WOOO!! YALE!!!
It's past midnight. The moment's over. Fuck Yale, let's go Red.
Terrible, terrible season. Everything that could have possibly gone wrong, did. No one on the team seemed to have progressed. One game from a home playoff series. 80 seconds from AC. Almost every other ECAC team seemed to have gotten better. God forsaken Yale won the national championship.
Will Cornell be back next year? Probably, but it will be in spite of this absolute disaster of a season. Let's just say if I'm a highly-touted hockey recruit looking for an education, I'm choosing the champs over the regressing Red. Especially if I'm a forward. If I'm a forward, no chance in hell.
Melrose mentioned that Q loses 11 seniors from this year's team, including 4 D'men and Hartzell.
Even with the Jones bros and Peca back, that is going to be a completely different team.
I expect all the ECAC supporters on this board will be heading here (http://www.collegehockeygear.com/?Click=3219) to pick up the appropriate swag.
Quote from: BenI expect all the ECAC supporters on this board will be heading here (http://www.collegehockeygear.com/?Click=3219) to pick up the appropriate swag.
There's a difference between being happy for your conference/league/division and being an all-out fan. I wished several Yale fans I met luck before the game, and congratulated others after the game. While a group of us were leaving the arena, we passed by some obviously exuberant Yale students, and they shouted "yeah, Ivy League!" That's what it's about. There are bonds and camaraderie that is important to some of us. We all dream of us winning some year, and I guarantee you that the same support from peers would make the experience that much sweeter. When you're here, you can either choose to be miserable or choose to enjoy the experience, and I know for a fact for me, it is much more fun to do the latter. That's what makes the college hockey community so addictive: when it comes down to it, we all love the same game, so find comfort in this awesome experience, and hope someday we get fortunate enough to experience the euphoria too.
Can't wait for October.
Quote from: RichHQuote from: BenI expect all the ECAC supporters on this board will be heading here (http://www.collegehockeygear.com/?Click=3219) to pick up the appropriate swag.
There's a difference between being happy for your conference/league/division and being an all-out fan. I wished several Yale fans I met luck before the game, and congratulated others after the game. While a group of us were leaving the arena, we passed by some obviously exuberant Yale students, and they shouted "yeah, Ivy League!" That's what it's about. There are bonds and camaraderie that is important to some of us. We all dream of us winning some year, and I guarantee you that the same support from peers would make the experience that much sweeter. When you're here, you can either choose to be miserable or choose to enjoy the experience, and I know for a fact for me, it is much more fun to do the latter. That's what makes the college hockey community so addictive: when it comes down to it, we all love the same game, so find comfort in this awesome experience, and hope someday we get fortunate enough to experience the euphoria too.
Can't wait for October.
I like that making a joke turns me into a miserable git. I neither want nor expect support from the fans of any other team. If no one likes us, I won't care (like Millwall, without the hooliganism). I'll just enjoy the hockey.
Better an East team than not.
Better an ECAC team than not.
Better an Ivy team than not (ok, with the exception of Harvard).
That was a great game. Any team that can play that cleanly, with such a "short memory", and run the gauntlet that Yale did deserves what they got.
Quote from: DLBetter an East team than not.
Better an ECAC team than not.
Better an Ivy team than not (ok, with the exception of Harvard).
That was a great game. Any team that can play that cleanly, with such a "short memory", and run the gauntlet that Yale did deserves what they got.
Throw "New York State" into the equation. Better Union wins than a non-NYS non-Ivy team which would mean better Union than Q. You'd sort of have to root for Syracuse against Hopkins in an NCAA lax final, or Syracuse not Michigan in a hoops final excepting that Louisville-Michigan was darned entertaining.
Quote from: TrotskyIt's past midnight. The moment's over. Fuck Yale, let's go Red.
The feeling you get when you've had enough of the Kelly Clarkson-Dick Clark-Guy Lombardo New Year's Eve Special and it's time to move into the New Year, like around 12:10. How much Andre Champagne can one party drink?
Quote from: BenI like that making a joke turns me into a miserable git.
Ha, I'm sorry. I recognize it now, but getting in at 3 am after a night of...let's say "tournament reflection," I wanted to get my thoughts on this whole thread debate down, and yours was the easiest thing to grasp in my state without lobbing any real grenades.
Alas, in the end, the Deer Ticks succumbed to Eli(me) disease.
Quote from: TrotskyIt's past midnight. The moment's over. Fuck Yale, let's go Red.
I believe I said something like "my support of Yale ends the second I step out of this building."
Quote from: Larry72...tired of seeing the best forum in college hockey be denigrated by a small group of whiners. So, in a word, we've had enough, If you want to flame, taunt, and hurl personal insults -- that's what the USCHO "Fan" Forum is for -- go there! If you stay here and can be civil and be productive even if you disagree, then fine!
::rock::::rock::::rock::
Quote from: tretiakQuote from: Goleta!
Interesting that you picked the west-coast campus that rivals Cornell in its macabre obsession with its natural terrain (Cornell's gorges vs. UCSB's bluffs). Do the people who post pics of UCSB actually go to the beach in IV?
Well, the real beach is on the other side of campus, and when I was there was very popular with grad students for having a free parking lot closer to the Physics building than our designated parking, as long as a cop didn't see you park and walk to campus rather than the beach. (A friend of mine once got a ticket for being parked at the beach with Physics books in the back seat of his car.) The cliffs on Del Playa were similar to the gorges in that people notoriously fell off them, although in UCSB's case it was typically drunken partiers from the Halloween grope-fest doing an accidental header rather than post-exam suicides.
Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: Larry72I like our view better! Talk about thread drift!!! :-)
(http://sct.arts.cornell.edu/image_uploads/Ithaca_4_1274904313.jpg)
Unfortunately, you can't see the gorgeous view of our campus from our campus. Score a big one for IC's tower dorms though.
The view of the lake from the 6th floor conference room in Space Sciences is pretty nice, tough. B-]
Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: Larry72I like our view better! Talk about thread drift!!! :-)
(http://sct.arts.cornell.edu/image_uploads/Ithaca_4_1274904313.jpg)
Unfortunately, you can't see the gorgeous view of our campus from our campus. Score a big one for IC's tower dorms though.
I'd rather have it that way than the other way around.
Quinnipiac T-shirts said Beat Yale. Yale T-shirts said Yale. Far fewer Yale alums wore jerseys or sweatshirts than Cornell alums. There is the argument you shouldn't wear a team jersey past age 29 or chest size 48.
Quote from: billhowardQuote from: DLBetter an East team than not.
Better an ECAC team than not.
Better an Ivy team than not (ok, with the exception of Harvard).
That was a great game. Any team that can play that cleanly, with such a "short memory", and run the gauntlet that Yale did deserves what they got.
Throw "New York State" into the equation. Better Union wins than a non-NYS non-Ivy team which would mean better Union than Q. You'd sort of have to root for Syracuse against Hopkins in an NCAA lax final, or Syracuse not Michigan in a hoops final excepting that Louisville-Michigan was darned entertaining.
I'd be inclined towards any of the other NYS teams in the ECAC
except Union, but then I think this actually manifests itself in supporting the other teams that have been in the ECAC since before the Great Divorce, which is now down to Colgate, RPI, CCT, SLU, and the other five ivies.
BTW, if Hockey Least wants to poach Quinnipiac, I'm sure RIT would love to take their spot, although it would probably leave Princeton and Colgate as travel partners...
So (I use that word a lot), one of the things that seems to distinguish some of the disagreements, on a couple of these threads, (I also use a lot of commas) is offense versus defense. That also seems to hold with awards. Why is it that the offense always seems to get the awards. To me giving Miller the MVP yesterday epitomizes that. I would have picked Malcolm in a landslide. He was spectacular in stopping a couple of goals. Yales defense falls apart without him, and they lose the game. Yeah they scored 4 goals, but the first 2 were totally becaue of Q's defense and goalie going asleep, not because of Yale's great offense. Don't get me wrong, Yale has a great offense, but without Malcolm playing as well as he does, they lose. He's the MVP.
Quote from: jtwcornell91Quote from: billhowardQuote from: DLBetter an East team than not.
Better an ECAC team than not.
Better an Ivy team than not (ok, with the exception of Harvard).
That was a great game. Any team that can play that cleanly, with such a "short memory", and run the gauntlet that Yale did deserves what they got.
Throw "New York State" into the equation. Better Union wins than a non-NYS non-Ivy team which would mean better Union than Q. You'd sort of have to root for Syracuse against Hopkins in an NCAA lax final, or Syracuse not Michigan in a hoops final excepting that Louisville-Michigan was darned entertaining.
I'd be inclined towards any of the other NYS teams in the ECAC except Union, but then I think this actually manifests itself in supporting the other teams that have been in the ECAC since before the Great Divorce, which is now down to Colgate, RPI, CCT, SLU, and the other five ivies.
BTW, if Hockey Least wants to poach Quinnipiac, I'm sure RIT would love to take their spot, although it would probably leave Princeton and Colgate as travel partners...
I'm with you on this (not "U"). And if it has to come down to only NY staters, I'd pick the classiest team+fan combo with the longest history and the longest drought. I guess it's about loyalty first, then spreading the love to those who represent well.
Quote from: billhowardQuinnipiac T-shirts said Beat Yale. Yale T-shirts said Yale. Far fewer Yale alums wore jerseys or sweatshirts than Cornell alums. There is the argument you shouldn't wear a team jersey past age 29 or chest size 48.
I know that Quinnipiac considers Yale to be their biggest rival and Yale's reaction is "You're not Harvard." I really hope this game doesn't change that dynamic because it amuses me. If Quinnipiac had won, it might have, but I think a Yale victory seals the lack of rivalry.
Quote from: billhowardThere is the argument you shouldn't wear a team jersey past age 29 or chest size 48.
You'll pry my team jersey from my cold, dead fingers.
(Really it's one of many things you can get away with again once you pass 50 without it being creepy. 50 is liberating -- it's like being a grandfather (all too close in actuality) and suddenly you're wauint rather than skeevy.)
Quote from: jtn27Quote from: billhowardQuinnipiac T-shirts said Beat Yale. Yale T-shirts said Yale. Far fewer Yale alums wore jerseys or sweatshirts than Cornell alums. There is the argument you shouldn't wear a team jersey past age 29 or chest size 48.
I know that Quinnipiac considers Yale to be their biggest rival and Yale's reaction is "You're not Harvard." I really hope this game doesn't change that dynamic because it amuses me. If Quinnipiac had won, it might have, but I think a Yale victory seals the lack of rivalry.
Well, the Yale crowd did start a "Harvard sucks" chant. We managed to pick it up and join them after 1 round.
Quote from: Well, the real beach is on the other side of campus, and when I was there was very popular with grad students for having a free parking lot closer to the Physics building than our designated parking, as long as a cop didn't see you park and walk to campus rather than the beach. (A friend of mine once got a ticket for being parked at the beach with Physics books in the back seat of his car.) The cliffs on Del Playa were similar to the gorges in that people notoriously fell off them, although in UCSB's case it was typically drunken partiers from the Halloween grope-fest doing an accidental header rather than post-exam suicides.
Cops monitor Goleta beach hourly now - I'm a grad student a few months away from getting out of this Elysian gulag for good. 3 undergrads already cliff-dove off DP this year. Looks like we're in for a shitstorm circa Cornell 2010.
What's the difference between Cornell and UCSB? When a Cornell student dies, people assume the Cornell student did it on purpose. People assume UCSB was an accident.
Quote from: jtn27Quote from: billhowardQuinnipiac T-shirts said Beat Yale. Yale T-shirts said Yale. Far fewer Yale alums wore jerseys or sweatshirts than Cornell alums. There is the argument you shouldn't wear a team jersey past age 29 or chest size 48.
I know that Quinnipiac considers Yale to be their biggest rival and Yale's reaction is "You're not Harvard." I really hope this game doesn't change that dynamic because it amuses me. If Quinnipiac had won, it might have, but I think a Yale victory seals the lack of rivalry.
This article (http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2013/4/13/4217262/2013-frozen-four-quinnipiac-vs-yale-rivalry/in/3984851) is a really detailed expansion of your comment, and an interesting read on the topic. Personally, I laughed at the description of how "busloads of eternal Quinnipiac spring breakers are disgorged from minibuses from which they stagger, bathed in glitter and clad in high heels and little else, to Toad's" because I've seen it with my own bemused eyes.
In a sense, Quinnipiac-to-Yale is a more lopsided "rivalry" than Cornell-to-Harvard and Colgate-to-Cornell in terms of one caring much more. I'm always curious about the level of interest in the Union-RPI rivalry, which I believe has been elevated in recent years, mostly thanks to a media attention-shift to Schenectady. With Clarkson an easy target of RPI hate, Union used to seem to be an afterthought to the Engineer fans. For Union's campus, they had to find a new foe after moving to D-I...IIRC, Union used to do the whole "orange toss" thing vs. Hamilton College in their D-III days.
A high point for me last night was that as it became apparent in the final ten minutes that Yale would ascend the mountain, the Yale section broke into a loud "HARVARD SUCKS!" chant, during which we in the Cornell pocket all happily joined in.
My favorite quote regarding the Q-Y rivalry comes from this article (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-10/harvard-vs-yale-this-rivalry-is-even-colder.html) (already linked somewhere on eLF this week):
QuoteAs one Yale alumnus and hockey fan told me, the only thing this traditional rivalry lacks is a feeling of rivalry and a sense of tradition.
Zing.
Quote from: jtn27I know that Quinnipiac considers Yale to be their biggest rival and Yale's reaction is "You're not Harvard."
Something feels very familiar about that formulation (http://elf.elynah.com/read.php?1,28999).
One of the great things that make the Frozen Four is that everyone is there for the love of the game. And people don't get into arguments about who you should root for - there's an understanding that it's the personal choice of the other.
Post-game last night I had the opportunity to speak with Tucker Mullen, this year's Humanitarian Award winner. In the long run, that kind of stuff is more important than whether you win or lose. I got introduced to Tucker by Ryan Adler, brother of Cornell hockey player David Adler '00. Ryan, a two-time Humanitarian finalist while at Hobart, saw my Cornell jersey and the next thing I knew I was in a conversation with Ryan, Tucker and a couple of others. Two of the group took my picture so they could send a picture of the jersey to Cornell friends (obviously had nothing to do with the guy who was wearing it). It was pretty funny to me that I was the one whose picture was being taking, especially since one of the other guys our small conversation circle was Brian Leetch.
Quote from: kaelistusAm I the only person who really loves our style of Hockey? The vision I have of the 2003 team was not our good goal scoring, it was watching a player shoot the puck and then seeing three Cornell skaters slide into it's path as if we had four goalies. It was fantastic, and I've never seen another school be so dynamic at defense.
I'll take that over high scoring breakaway heavy games any day. 5 on 5 hockey with all the strategy that entails is where it's at. What's so interesting about a breakaway?
No, you're not, but I'm pretty sure we're in the minority. I love watching the positioning and communication* that goes into making defensive hockey work, but most fans don't seem to get into it. From what I can tell most (American) sports fans prefer to see scoring and scoring opportunities to brilliant defensive execution, and honestly I can get that. Goals are exciting - the light goes on, the horn blows, that damn bell rings, Deer Tick fans clap their thunderstix, the band plays Davy, whatever form it takes there's cheering and celebration. Even when the puck doesn't go in the net something *nearly* happened, and it gets the blood flowing. That's also what's so interesting about a breakaway - it's a single event with a high potential for changing the outcome of the game.
Yale's style is entertaining to watch for me, not because it's focused more on transition to attack (although that is interesting), but because of the puck movement. Cornell has *never* had that kind of passing under Schafer. I'm not in the "Cornell must abandon defensive hockey" camp, not by a long shot, but if I could pick one aspect of Cornell's game to improve it would be puck movement. They don't have to turn into Yale, but something a bit more dynamic through the neutral zone and on the PP could make a huge difference in both entertainment value and - far more importantly - offensive output.
* I think the thing I miss most about Lynah is being close enough to actually hear the guys on the ice talk to each other. That and every time it got so loud I couldn't hear them talk to each other.
I may be saying the same thing, but I would like us to work on getting the puck off the stick one beat quicker. Yale accentuates their team speed by moving the play along quickly. Cornell always seems to be deliberate, if not tentative, so even our fast players (Ryan comes to mind) allow the opponent to reconstitute the defense position and pen them in.
One of the best things about Bardreau is that he does the give and go very quickly. It's not just fast twitch muscle tissue - it's a style of play we can practice and get better at.
Wouldn't hurt the power play any, either.
Quote from: TrotskyI may be saying the same thing, but I would like us to work on getting the puck off the stick one beat quicker. Yale accentuates their team speed by moving the play along quickly. Cornell always seems to be deliberate, if not tentative, so even our fast players (Ryan comes to mind) allow the opponent to reconstitute the defense position and pen them in.
One of the best things about Bardreau is that he does the give and go very quickly. It's not just fast twitch muscle tissue - it's a style of play we can practice and get better at.
Wouldn't hurt the power play any, either.
I agree that this is the biggest difference between Cornell and a team like Yale -- speed of puck movement. This is one area where we need to pick-up our game, and it really shows on the power play. I see glimpses of quick puck movement with guys like Ferlin and Lowry, but I'd like to see it more consistently among the entire roster.
Quote from: scoop85Quote from: TrotskyI may be saying the same thing, but I would like us to work on getting the puck off the stick one beat quicker. Yale accentuates their team speed by moving the play along quickly. Cornell always seems to be deliberate, if not tentative, so even our fast players (Ryan comes to mind) allow the opponent to reconstitute the defense position and pen them in.
One of the best things about Bardreau is that he does the give and go very quickly. It's not just fast twitch muscle tissue - it's a style of play we can practice and get better at.
Wouldn't hurt the power play any, either.
I agree that this is the biggest difference between Cornell and a team like Yale -- speed of puck movement. This is one area where we need to pick-up our game, and it really shows on the power play. I see glimpses of quick puck movement with guys like Ferlin and Lowry, but I'd like to see it more consistently among the entire roster.
I couldn't agree more. The passing on the PP is horrible at best. I think 10 year old kids could make quicker, crisp passes than what was on display the past couple of years or so.
Quote from: Tom LentoYale's style is entertaining to watch for me, not because it's focused more on transition to attack (although that is interesting), but because of the puck movement. Cornell has *never* had that kind of passing under Schafer. I'm not in the "Cornell must abandon defensive hockey" camp, not by a long shot, but if I could pick one aspect of Cornell's game to improve it would be puck movement. They don't have to turn into Yale, but something a bit more dynamic through the neutral zone and on the PP could make a huge difference in both entertainment value and - far more importantly - offensive output.
One thing that struck me this weekend was Yale's* knack for moving the puck out to the wing and then quickly back to the center while moving through the neutral zone. This seemed to be awfully effective at enabling them to carry the puck into the other team's zone in a position to quickly generate a good scoring chance. I don't think I've ever seen any team make quite that same pass quite so regularly at any level of hockey; my suspicion is that if a team tried it in the NHL, it'd get intercepted more often than not, but it was still impressive to see Yale execute it.
* I say "Yale's knack" but I can't say for sure whether it's something that they managed throughout their lineup or whether it's just their top line or two that can pull it off.
Quote from: scoop85Quote from: TrotskyI may be saying the same thing, but I would like us to work on getting the puck off the stick one beat quicker. Yale accentuates their team speed by moving the play along quickly. Cornell always seems to be deliberate, if not tentative, so even our fast players (Ryan comes to mind) allow the opponent to reconstitute the defense position and pen them in.
One of the best things about Bardreau is that he does the give and go very quickly. It's not just fast twitch muscle tissue - it's a style of play we can practice and get better at.
Wouldn't hurt the power play any, either.
I agree that this is the biggest difference between Cornell and a team like Yale -- speed of puck movement. This is one area where we need to pick-up our game, and it really shows on the power play. I see glimpses of quick puck movement with guys like Ferlin and Lowry, but I'd like to see it more consistently among the entire roster.
The defense frequently given for Cornell's boring power play is, "They're just setting it up and waiting for the other team to be out of position." That IMO misses the point: of course that's the way a power play works, as man-to-man defense is not possible, and I don't think anyone disputes that.
The problem isn't getting five guys and the puck into the offensive zone, it's that Cornell seems to have one option: a slow pass to a guy at the point who takes a slap shot into the shin guard of a defender who's repositioned himself (and possibly gone to the bathroom to take a leak) in the copious time it takes the puck to move to the predictable shooter.
What successful power plays do is move the puck more quickly *and* less predictably *and* actually set up
plays in which cycling players (with defenders having to transition between men in a zone defense) making a couple of quick passes in succession put the defense out of position without their having any time to react. You'll cough up the puck more often this way, but that's not much of a danger in a man-up situation, and the tradeoff is a much higher likelihood of catching the other team off-guard when you do have possession in the offensive zone.
The results for other teams with more imaginative power plays seem to speak for themselves.
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: scoop85Quote from: TrotskyI may be saying the same thing, but I would like us to work on getting the puck off the stick one beat quicker. Yale accentuates their team speed by moving the play along quickly. Cornell always seems to be deliberate, if not tentative, so even our fast players (Ryan comes to mind) allow the opponent to reconstitute the defense position and pen them in.
One of the best things about Bardreau is that he does the give and go very quickly. It's not just fast twitch muscle tissue - it's a style of play we can practice and get better at.
Wouldn't hurt the power play any, either.
I agree that this is the biggest difference between Cornell and a team like Yale -- speed of puck movement. This is one area where we need to pick-up our game, and it really shows on the power play. I see glimpses of quick puck movement with guys like Ferlin and Lowry, but I'd like to see it more consistently among the entire roster.
The defense frequently given for Cornell's boring power play is, "They're just setting it up and waiting for the other team to be out of position." That IMO misses the point: of course that's the way a power play works, as man-to-man defense is not possible, and I don't think anyone disputes that.
The problem isn't getting five guys and the puck into the offensive zone, it's that Cornell seems to have one option: a slow pass to a guy at the point who takes a slap shot into the shin guard of a defender who's repositioned himself (and possibly gone to the bathroom to take a leak) in the copious time it takes the puck to move to the predictable shooter.
What successful power plays do is move the puck more quickly *and* less predictably *and* actually set up plays in which cycling players (with defenders having to transition between men in a zone defense) making a couple of quick passes in succession put the defense out of position without their having any time to react. You'll cough up the puck more often this way, but that's not much of a danger in a man-up situation, and the tradeoff is a much higher likelihood of catching the other team off-guard when you do have possession in the offensive zone.
The results for other teams with more imaginative power plays seem to speak for themselves.
When I saw the Colorado College series this season, I noted mentally, "hey, it looks like we're finally figuring out a creative passing scheme on the PP!" And it showed in the box scores. By the time January rolled around, that had completely vanished, and we were doing the same ol' umbrella schtick (or giving it to Ferlin to carry in and take a shot alone) that our league knows so well. I don't know what happened.
There are two things I think Cornell has always been poor at: neutral zone passing, and clearing the puck on the PK. For the last regular season game in New Haven, I thought the passing looked better than in recent games, but during the 10-0 drubbing in Hamden in the QF series, even the passing in our defensive zone was weak and INCREDIBLY tentative. Almost like they were trying to delicately deliver the puck to one another and hoping that it would work out. Hard, fast passes right to the stick blade are what you see in April. CU just didn't have that confidence. As for the PK, how is it that we always seem to send the puck RIGHT AT a waiting opponent at the blue line who can easily glove the puck? It drives me batty how bad we are with easy PK zone clears.
Quote from: Josh '99One thing that struck me this weekend was Yale's* knack for moving the puck out to the wing and then quickly back to the center while moving through the neutral zone. This seemed to be awfully effective at enabling them to carry the puck into the other team's zone in a position to quickly generate a good scoring chance. I don't think I've ever seen any team make quite that same pass quite so regularly at any level of hockey
Harvard in the 80's. It was their Signature Move, and no matter what we could never stop it.
It may be Yale's style but you need someone special, like an Andrew Miller (or a Lane MacDonald) to pull it off.
Quote from: RichHThere are two things I think Cornell has always been poor at: neutral zone passing, and clearing the puck on the PK.
Well, the first is something that, yes, we've always seemed poor at, the second is something we were unfathomably bad at this year. I've never seen a Cornell team struggle so much to clear the zone on the PK. Get it; nail it with authority or flick it at the right hole. Doesn't seem that hard. Usually the problem is in getting it in the first place.
The only time I want to see something other than an immediate clear is when we've got a couple of talented forwards on the "power kill" who feed off each other and create shorthanded chances. That was
not the case this year.
I'll take it a step further. We suck at clearing the zone. Period. We insist on sitting behind the net and waiting for absolutely clear ice to bring the puck out of the zone. That gives weaker teams a chance to set up their defenses in the neutral zone. OTOH, stronger teams come in with a good forecheck and make our guys do something other than a slow clear and we give up the puck.
IMO, We need to work on that even more than the power play.
See, this is what I like. Calmly picking apart the flaws. Nobody - even the fans who think Schafer should be here for a long time - think that the team is or has ever been perfect.
The "classy" Quinnipiac fans (http://tinyurl.com/d3cd68o) didn't take the loss well.
Quote from: dbilmesThe "classy" Quinnipiac fans (http://tinyurl.com/d3cd68o) didn't take the loss well.
I heard that Quinnipiac canceled the normal bus service to New Haven on Saturday night, which is about the smartest thing they could have possibly done for obvious reasons.
Quote from: dbilmesThe "classy" Quinnipiac fans (http://tinyurl.com/d3cd68o) didn't take the loss well.
It's their proposal to Hockey East.
Quote from: dbilmesThe "classy" Quinnipiac fans (http://tinyurl.com/d3cd68o) didn't take the loss well.
At least they care about their team (unlike Yale students).
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: dbilmesThe "classy" Quinnipiac fans (http://tinyurl.com/d3cd68o) didn't take the loss well.
At least they care about their team (unlike Yale students).
If they won it would have been the same. Like Maryland hoops, everything is an excuse for dropping flaming couches out of high rise dorms.
Quote from: BearLoverAt least they care about their team (unlike Yale students).
They only care about their team when it's winning, and even then I've seen the student section of the rink empty out with Q ahead so the students can catch the busses to the New Haven clubs. In Game 1 of the Cornell-Q playoff series, the student section was virtually empty by the third period, despite the fact that Q was only trailing by one goal.
Quote from: ugarteSee, this is what I like. Calmly picking apart the flaws. Nobody - even the fans who think Schafer should be here for a long time - think that the team is or has ever been perfect.
I don't know if I'd say "ever". I mean, there was that one year.
Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: ugarteSee, this is what I like. Calmly picking apart the flaws. Nobody - even the fans who think Schafer should be here for a long time - think that the team is or has ever been perfect.
I don't know if I'd say "ever". I mean, there was that one year.
Nice.
Quote from: BearLoverQuote from: dbilmesThe "classy" Quinnipiac fans (http://tinyurl.com/d3cd68o) didn't take the loss well.
At least they care about their team (unlike Yale students).
Well, I'll tell you what. The Yale section in Pittsburgh proved their worth to me last weekend. A couple things really stood out, and that were the school sections. I thought, from inside the building, the Q and Y fans were the loudest on Thursday. (A tip of the hat to the small group of UML fans right by the glass...when they tied their game up, despite being heavily outplayed, they were practically tackling each other in the seats with joy. So much so that I'm pretty sure I saw an arena cop go over and tell them to settle down). On Saturday, there were several groups of Y-A-L-E chest painters, and for some reason, several groups were allowed to cram together and stand in the aisle. They sang "Happy Birthday" to Jeff Malcolm after a great save in the 1st (which sent me to the CHN app to verify his birthdate). By the 10-minute mark in the 3rd, the atmosphere over in that corner got downright boisterous...not the "boola-boola, isn't this lovely" golf clap that would be the stereotypical Yalie response. They did a loud "Harvard Sucks" chant. And by far the most respect I'll give them: with about 5 minutes left, they spontaneously started singing, without band prompting, an a cappella version of their fight song during play. I loved that. I daydream that if we're ever in that situation, the alma mater would go up in vocal celebration as the clock wound down.
After getting back on Sunday, I had to make an IKEA run to New Haven. I decided to make a "day after" swing by Ingalls to see if anyone had put up a sign or something. I snapped a couple pictures at the homemade "Go Bulldogs" sign planted in front, and as I was about to leave, a van pulled up, and 6 students piled out festively to pose for a picture in front and ran back to the van. That reaction was kind of endearing, as small a gesture as it may be (or maybe it was part of a scavenger hunt or whatever).
Just to put closure on the season, I took the oft-referenced 9-mile drive to Hamden on my way home. In front of QU's arena, parked right in front of the ticket windows, was a campus security truck with its lights going. I like to think it was to keep any would-be rioters/vandals away, but maybe they're usually stationed there.
Quote from: billhowardEvery time I drive past Pepperdine I think "How can you get through in four years with the beach across the street [faith in the Lord to draw you away from temptation?]?" and "That is the best housing most students will live in until they're 30 or trust-fund babies."
Version 1: I don't think they do.
Version 2: Among the Pepperdine grads I've met, they got through, but they didn't learn very much. (lim x -> 0 = 0).
Quote from: dbilmesThe "classy" Quinnipiac fans (http://tinyurl.com/d3cd68o) didn't take the loss well.
Typical (http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2013/4/13/4217262/2013-frozen-four-quinnipiac-vs-yale-rivalry/in/3984851)!
From article in Troy-Record. (http://troyrecord.com/articles/2013/04/15/sports/doc516ccfc4cfdc7074874304.txt?viewmode=fullstory)
ä A look at ECAC schools that have competed in the NCAA Tournament since 2000.
Year No. Bids Schools Reg.seed W-L Record
2000 1 St. Lawrence No. 4 of 6 2-1
2001 1 St. Lawrence No. 6 of 6 0-1
2002 2 Cornell-1; Harvard-6 1-3
2003 2 Cornell-1 (of 4); Harvard-4 2-2
2004 1 Harvard-1 0-1
2005 3 Corn.-2; Harv.-3; Colgate-4; 1-3
2006 2 Harvard-2; Cornell-2 1-2
2007 2 Clarkson-1; St. Lawrence -3 0-2
2008 2 Clarkson-3; Princeton-4 1-2
2009 3 Yale-2; Princeton-3; Cornell-3 1-3
2010 2 Cornell-2; Yale-3 1-2
2011 3 Yale-1; Union-2; RPI-4 1-3
2012 2 Union-1*; Cornell-4 3-2
2013 3 Quinnipiac-1*; Yale-3*#; Union-3; 5-1
*--Reached Frozen Four. #--National champs.
Not bad showing for Cornell.
From New Haven Register article. (http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2013/04/14/news/new_haven/doc516b731bed2fe009407129.txt?viewmode=fullstory)
QuoteAbout 15 fans, some as young as 5, were there to welcome the Bulldogs home.
A police escort of three motorcycles met the men's bus at Bradley International Airport to take them home to Ingalls Rink.
I wonder if they counted the 3 policemen as fans.
Quote from: Jim HylaFrom article in Troy-Record. (http://troyrecord.com/articles/2013/04/15/sports/doc516ccfc4cfdc7074874304.txt?viewmode=fullstory)
ä A look at ECAC schools that have competed in the NCAA Tournament since 2000.
Year No. Bids Schools Reg.seed W-L Record
2000 1 St. Lawrence No. 4 of 6 2-1
2001 1 St. Lawrence No. 6 of 6 0-1
2002 2 Cornell-1; Harvard-6 1-3
2003 2 Cornell-1 (of 4); Harvard-4 2-2
2004 1 Harvard-1 0-1
2005 3 Corn.-2; Harv.-3; Colgate-4; 1-3
2006 2 Harvard-2; Cornell-2 1-2
2007 2 Clarkson-1; St. Lawrence -3 0-2
2008 2 Clarkson-3; Princeton-4 1-2
2009 3 Yale-2; Princeton-3; Cornell-3 1-3
2010 2 Cornell-2; Yale-3 1-2
2011 3 Yale-1; Union-2; RPI-4 1-3
2012 2 Union-1*; Cornell-4 3-2
2013 3 Quinnipiac-1*; Yale-3*#; Union-3; 5-1
*--Reached Frozen Four. #--National champs.
Not bad showing for Cornell.
There seem to be some errors here:
- In 2000, St. Lawrence reached the Frozen Four, but aren't indicated as having done so.
- Was Cornell a 1 seed in 2002? I thought it was a 3 seed, which was why the first-round game was against Quinnipiac before playing UNH, who were a top-two seed in the regional and had a bye. And the ECAC was 1-2 that year, not 1-3, since there isn't any way for two entries in a single elimination tournament to lose three games between them.
- The record for 2013 is wrong. Quinnipiac was 3-1, Yale was 4-0, Union was 1-1, so the total record should be 8-2. 5-1 was the ECAC's record before the Frozen Four.
Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: Jim HylaFrom article in Troy-Record. (http://troyrecord.com/articles/2013/04/15/sports/doc516ccfc4cfdc7074874304.txt?viewmode=fullstory)
ä A look at ECAC schools that have competed in the NCAA Tournament since 2000.
Year No. Bids Schools Reg.seed W-L Record
2000 1 St. Lawrence No. 4 of 6 2-1
2001 1 St. Lawrence No. 6 of 6 0-1
2002 2 Cornell-1; Harvard-6 1-3
2003 2 Cornell-1 (of 4); Harvard-4 2-2
2004 1 Harvard-1 0-1
2005 3 Corn.-2; Harv.-3; Colgate-4; 1-3
2006 2 Harvard-2; Cornell-2 1-2
2007 2 Clarkson-1; St. Lawrence -3 0-2
2008 2 Clarkson-3; Princeton-4 1-2
2009 3 Yale-2; Princeton-3; Cornell-3 1-3
2010 2 Cornell-2; Yale-3 1-2
2011 3 Yale-1; Union-2; RPI-4 1-3
2012 2 Union-1*; Cornell-4 3-2
2013 3 Quinnipiac-1*; Yale-3*#; Union-3; 5-1
*--Reached Frozen Four. #--National champs.
Not bad showing for Cornell.
There seem to be some errors here:
- In 2000, St. Lawrence reached the Frozen Four, but aren't indicated as having done so.
- Was Cornell a 1 seed in 2002? I thought it was a 3 seed, which was why the first-round game was against Quinnipiac before playing UNH, who were a top-two seed in the regional and had a bye. And the ECAC was 1-2 that year, not 1-3, since there isn't any way for two entries in a single elimination tournament to lose three games between them.
- The record for 2013 is wrong. Quinnipiac was 3-1, Yale was 4-0, Union was 1-1, so the total record should be 8-2. 5-1 was the ECAC's record before the Frozen Four.
In 2002, Cornell was the #4 seed in the 6 team East Regional. Quinnipiac was #5 and UNH was #1. Harvard was the East #6 and lost to #3 Maine in OT.
In 2000 St Lawrence was the #2 seed in the East and had a bye. They beat BU and lost to BC at the Frozen Four. Colgate was the #4 in the East and lost to Michigan.
Quote from: nyc94Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: Jim HylaFrom article in Troy-Record. (http://troyrecord.com/articles/2013/04/15/sports/doc516ccfc4cfdc7074874304.txt?viewmode=fullstory)
ä A look at ECAC schools that have competed in the NCAA Tournament since 2000.
Year No. Bids Schools Reg.seed W-L Record
2000 1 St. Lawrence No. 4 of 6 2-1
2001 1 St. Lawrence No. 6 of 6 0-1
2002 2 Cornell-1; Harvard-6 1-3
2003 2 Cornell-1 (of 4); Harvard-4 2-2
2004 1 Harvard-1 0-1
2005 3 Corn.-2; Harv.-3; Colgate-4; 1-3
2006 2 Harvard-2; Cornell-2 1-2
2007 2 Clarkson-1; St. Lawrence -3 0-2
2008 2 Clarkson-3; Princeton-4 1-2
2009 3 Yale-2; Princeton-3; Cornell-3 1-3
2010 2 Cornell-2; Yale-3 1-2
2011 3 Yale-1; Union-2; RPI-4 1-3
2012 2 Union-1*; Cornell-4 3-2
2013 3 Quinnipiac-1*; Yale-3*#; Union-3; 5-1
*--Reached Frozen Four. #--National champs.
Not bad showing for Cornell.
There seem to be some errors here:
- In 2000, St. Lawrence reached the Frozen Four, but aren't indicated as having done so.
- Was Cornell a 1 seed in 2002? I thought it was a 3 seed, which was why the first-round game was against Quinnipiac before playing UNH, who were a top-two seed in the regional and had a bye. And the ECAC was 1-2 that year, not 1-3, since there isn't any way for two entries in a single elimination tournament to lose three games between them.
- The record for 2013 is wrong. Quinnipiac was 3-1, Yale was 4-0, Union was 1-1, so the total record should be 8-2. 5-1 was the ECAC's record before the Frozen Four.
In 2002, Cornell was the #4 seed in the 6 team East Regional. Quinnipiac was #5 and UNH was #1. Harvard was the East #6 and lost to #3 Maine in OT.
In 2000 St Lawrence was the #2 seed in the East and had a bye. They beat BU and lost to BC at the Frozen Four. Colgate was the #4 in the East and lost to Michigan.
Thanks, couldn't remember which pair was which in 2002.
Quote from: nyc94Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: Jim HylaFrom article in Troy-Record. (http://troyrecord.com/articles/2013/04/15/sports/doc516ccfc4cfdc7074874304.txt?viewmode=fullstory)
ä A look at ECAC schools that have competed in the NCAA Tournament since 2000.
Year No. Bids Schools Reg.seed W-L Record
2000 1 St. Lawrence No. 4 of 6 2-1
2001 1 St. Lawrence No. 6 of 6 0-1
2002 2 Cornell-1; Harvard-6 1-3
2003 2 Cornell-1 (of 4); Harvard-4 2-2
2004 1 Harvard-1 0-1
2005 3 Corn.-2; Harv.-3; Colgate-4; 1-3
2006 2 Harvard-2; Cornell-2 1-2
2007 2 Clarkson-1; St. Lawrence -3 0-2
2008 2 Clarkson-3; Princeton-4 1-2
2009 3 Yale-2; Princeton-3; Cornell-3 1-3
2010 2 Cornell-2; Yale-3 1-2
2011 3 Yale-1; Union-2; RPI-4 1-3
2012 2 Union-1*; Cornell-4 3-2
2013 3 Quinnipiac-1*; Yale-3*#; Union-3; 5-1
*--Reached Frozen Four. #--National champs.
Not bad showing for Cornell.
There seem to be some errors here:
- In 2000, St. Lawrence reached the Frozen Four, but aren't indicated as having done so.
- Was Cornell a 1 seed in 2002? I thought it was a 3 seed, which was why the first-round game was against Quinnipiac before playing UNH, who were a top-two seed in the regional and had a bye. And the ECAC was 1-2 that year, not 1-3, since there isn't any way for two entries in a single elimination tournament to lose three games between them.
- The record for 2013 is wrong. Quinnipiac was 3-1, Yale was 4-0, Union was 1-1, so the total record should be 8-2. 5-1 was the ECAC's record before the Frozen Four.
In 2002, Cornell was the #4 seed in the 6 team East Regional. Quinnipiac was #5 and UNH was #1. Harvard was the East #6 and lost to #3 Maine in OT.
In 2000 St Lawrence was the #2 seed in the East and had a bye. They beat BU and lost to BC at the Frozen Four. Colgate was the #4 in the East and lost to Michigan.
The ECAC should have won at least one more in 2000. There were about 6 TV replay views of a Colgate no goal in OT vs. Michigan that should have counted. In 2001 the overhead cameras became mandatory for NCAA play, I believe.
Quote from: martyQuote from: nyc94Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: Jim HylaFrom article in Troy-Record. (http://troyrecord.com/articles/2013/04/15/sports/doc516ccfc4cfdc7074874304.txt?viewmode=fullstory)
ä A look at ECAC schools that have competed in the NCAA Tournament since 2000.
Year No. Bids Schools Reg.seed W-L Record
2000 1 St. Lawrence No. 4 of 6 2-1
2001 1 St. Lawrence No. 6 of 6 0-1
2002 2 Cornell-1; Harvard-6 1-3
2003 2 Cornell-1 (of 4); Harvard-4 2-2
2004 1 Harvard-1 0-1
2005 3 Corn.-2; Harv.-3; Colgate-4; 1-3
2006 2 Harvard-2; Cornell-2 1-2
2007 2 Clarkson-1; St. Lawrence -3 0-2
2008 2 Clarkson-3; Princeton-4 1-2
2009 3 Yale-2; Princeton-3; Cornell-3 1-3
2010 2 Cornell-2; Yale-3 1-2
2011 3 Yale-1; Union-2; RPI-4 1-3
2012 2 Union-1*; Cornell-4 3-2
2013 3 Quinnipiac-1*; Yale-3*#; Union-3; 5-1
*--Reached Frozen Four. #--National champs.
Not bad showing for Cornell.
There seem to be some errors here:
- In 2000, St. Lawrence reached the Frozen Four, but aren't indicated as having done so.
- Was Cornell a 1 seed in 2002? I thought it was a 3 seed, which was why the first-round game was against Quinnipiac before playing UNH, who were a top-two seed in the regional and had a bye. And the ECAC was 1-2 that year, not 1-3, since there isn't any way for two entries in a single elimination tournament to lose three games between them.
- The record for 2013 is wrong. Quinnipiac was 3-1, Yale was 4-0, Union was 1-1, so the total record should be 8-2. 5-1 was the ECAC's record before the Frozen Four.
In 2002, Cornell was the #4 seed in the 6 team East Regional. Quinnipiac was #5 and UNH was #1. Harvard was the East #6 and lost to #3 Maine in OT.
In 2000 St Lawrence was the #2 seed in the East and had a bye. They beat BU and lost to BC at the Frozen Four. Colgate was the #4 in the East and lost to Michigan.
The ECAC should have won at least one more in 2000. There were about 6 TV replay views of a Colgate no goal in OT vs. Michigan that should have counted. In 2001 the overhead cameras became mandatory for NCAA play, I believe.
How are there so many nested responses before someone points out that Cornell isn't getting credit for the 2003 Final Four?
Quote from: ugarteQuote from: martyQuote from: nyc94Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: Jim HylaFrom article in Troy-Record. (http://troyrecord.com/articles/2013/04/15/sports/doc516ccfc4cfdc7074874304.txt?viewmode=fullstory)
ä A look at ECAC schools that have competed in the NCAA Tournament since 2000.
Year No. Bids Schools Reg.seed W-L Record
2000 1 St. Lawrence No. 4 of 6 2-1
2001 1 St. Lawrence No. 6 of 6 0-1
2002 2 Cornell-1; Harvard-6 1-3
2003 2 Cornell-1 (of 4); Harvard-4 2-2
2004 1 Harvard-1 0-1
2005 3 Corn.-2; Harv.-3; Colgate-4; 1-3
2006 2 Harvard-2; Cornell-2 1-2
2007 2 Clarkson-1; St. Lawrence -3 0-2
2008 2 Clarkson-3; Princeton-4 1-2
2009 3 Yale-2; Princeton-3; Cornell-3 1-3
2010 2 Cornell-2; Yale-3 1-2
2011 3 Yale-1; Union-2; RPI-4 1-3
2012 2 Union-1*; Cornell-4 3-2
2013 3 Quinnipiac-1*; Yale-3*#; Union-3; 5-1
*--Reached Frozen Four. #--National champs.
Not bad showing for Cornell.
There seem to be some errors here:
- In 2000, St. Lawrence reached the Frozen Four, but aren't indicated as having done so.
- Was Cornell a 1 seed in 2002? I thought it was a 3 seed, which was why the first-round game was against Quinnipiac before playing UNH, who were a top-two seed in the regional and had a bye. And the ECAC was 1-2 that year, not 1-3, since there isn't any way for two entries in a single elimination tournament to lose three games between them.
- The record for 2013 is wrong. Quinnipiac was 3-1, Yale was 4-0, Union was 1-1, so the total record should be 8-2. 5-1 was the ECAC's record before the Frozen Four.
In 2002, Cornell was the #4 seed in the 6 team East Regional. Quinnipiac was #5 and UNH was #1. Harvard was the East #6 and lost to #3 Maine in OT.
In 2000 St Lawrence was the #2 seed in the East and had a bye. They beat BU and lost to BC at the Frozen Four. Colgate was the #4 in the East and lost to Michigan.
The ECAC should have won at least one more in 2000. There were about 6 TV replay views of a Colgate no goal in OT vs. Michigan that should have counted. In 2001 the overhead cameras became mandatory for NCAA play, I believe.
How are there so many nested responses before someone points out that Cornell isn't getting credit for the 2003 Final Four?
::doh::
Quote from: Chris '03I think I read somewhere in the CT media love-fest this week that families making $80k or less pay $0 for Yale and it's a sliding scale after that. Cornell doesn't have those resources and may never given the size of the student body. While it will match packages from HYP, it can't do anything for a kid who needs the financial help and can't get into HYP. It's not a great position to be in for Cornell's recruiting approach to have to be "we want you to come here. Now go apply to HYP and when you get in, we'll get you a free ride here."
HYP have an enormous financial aid advantage right now over Cornell, Brown, and Dartmouth. Cornell has history, tradition, etc., which is great. But eventually money talks.
I believe this is my article you're referencing - and I didn't read through the rest of this thread to see if someone responded to this ... but, while the advantage was in Harvard-Yale-Princeton's favor for a few years ... the other Ivy League schools, about two years ago, got a rule passed that counter-balanced this, and was considered a very big deal.
http://www.collegehockeynews.com/news/2013/04/11_ecac_presence_in_frozen_four.php
In the very same paragraph you seem to be referring to - I wrote the following:
QuoteFurthermore, even though Cornell, Brown and Dartmouth do not have the endowments to do that, they successfully lobbied the Ivy League to allow their athletic programs to match whatever package Princeton, Harvard and Yale are offering.
Quote from: adamwQuote from: Chris '03I think I read somewhere in the CT media love-fest this week that families making $80k or less pay $0 for Yale and it's a sliding scale after that. Cornell doesn't have those resources and may never given the size of the student body. While it will match packages from HYP, it can't do anything for a kid who needs the financial help and can't get into HYP. It's not a great position to be in for Cornell's recruiting approach to have to be "we want you to come here. Now go apply to HYP and when you get in, we'll get you a free ride here."
HYP have an enormous financial aid advantage right now over Cornell, Brown, and Dartmouth. Cornell has history, tradition, etc., which is great. But eventually money talks.
I believe this is my article you're referencing - and I didn't read through the rest of this thread to see if someone responded to this ... but, while the advantage was in Harvard-Yale-Princeton's favor for a few years ... the other Ivy League schools, about two years ago, got a rule passed that counter-balanced this, and was considered a very big deal.
http://www.collegehockeynews.com/news/2013/04/11_ecac_presence_in_frozen_four.php
In the very same paragraph you seem to be referring to - I wrote the following:
QuoteFurthermore, even though Cornell, Brown and Dartmouth do not have the endowments to do that, they successfully lobbied the Ivy League to allow their athletic programs to match whatever package Princeton, Harvard and Yale are offering.
As someone else pointed out, that only means that we can match people who can get into H/Y/P, which diminishes the advantage we get from the lower AI - and also puts us in a weird position of encouraging our recruits to check out H/Y/P in order to get a matchable offer.
Quote from: ugarteQuote from: adamwIn the very same paragraph you seem to be referring to - I wrote the following:
QuoteFurthermore, even though Cornell, Brown and Dartmouth do not have the endowments to do that, they successfully lobbied the Ivy League to allow their athletic programs to match whatever package Princeton, Harvard and Yale are offering.
As someone else pointed out, that only means that we can match people who can get into H/Y/P, which diminishes the advantage we get from the lower AI - and also puts us in a weird position of encouraging our recruits to check out H/Y/P in order to get a matchable offer.
What I can tell you for sure is that the coaches at Cornell-Brown-Dartmouth were very pumped about finally getting back on equal footing with H-Y-P. So there must be a benefit.
Quote from: adamwQuote from: ugarteQuote from: adamwIn the very same paragraph you seem to be referring to - I wrote the following:
QuoteFurthermore, even though Cornell, Brown and Dartmouth do not have the endowments to do that, they successfully lobbied the Ivy League to allow their athletic programs to match whatever package Princeton, Harvard and Yale are offering.
As someone else pointed out, that only means that we can match people who can get into H/Y/P, which diminishes the advantage we get from the lower AI - and also puts us in a weird position of encouraging our recruits to check out H/Y/P in order to get a matchable offer.
What I can tell you for sure is that the coaches at Cornell-Brown-Dartmouth were very pumped about finally getting back on equal footing with H-Y-P. So there must be a benefit.
Adam, I don't think ugarte meant there was no benefit, but that the benefit came with strings attached, such as having recruits accepted at rivals before they can claim the benefit. (I also fixed your "incorrect quotes".:-D)