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In a nutshell, this was the game: The Cornell cavalry arrives too late to rein in a Harvard attacker who grabs the puck at the blue line and swoops in on Andy Iles. Wash, rinse and repeat. Here Alex Killorn making it 5-1 late in the third period.
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About to be Harvard 1, Cornell 0: Harvard freshman defenseman Patrick McNally gets a step on the Cornell defense (above) ... and from a poor angle gets the puck past Iles (below and below).
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Harvard's final goal, by Marshall Everson (21). Iles perhaps could have stopped a couple of the early goals (from my blue line viewpoint, halfway up the rink). Not ones like this.
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Some of us tried to recall the last time Cornell came back from a one-goal,two-goal, uh-oh three-goal deficit. By the third period I think we were wondering if we could avoid a shutout and Joel Lowry did just that with 1:06 remaining.
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When you're the ECAC site selection committee and lie on your back at center ice looking skyward while a showgirl pops grapes in your mouth, the arched blue ceiling makes Boardwalk Hall seem like an exciting venue. 3,462 fans (total, both games Friday, announced attendance; capacity is 10,500) straggled in. This was late in the first period. NJ high school wrestling drew twice that two weeks earlier.
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The Big Red band showed up, of course.
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Elements of a Harvard band showed up. Their T-shirts read (on 2 lines)
CRIM
SON ... though ...
CRIM
PARENT ... would have been more accurate.
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In the same way that Cornell avoided a shutout (barely), the ECAC avoided a TV shutout (barely) when RPI TV provided a pretty decent webcast.
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Real band, real fans, above and below. Without Cornell in the late game Saturday, the Union-Harvard title match would safely fit in Hobey Baker Rink.
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Proof that Harvard fans did attend the game.
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The Atlantic City ECAC hockey champions banner looks as if there's room for a 10-year-plus run. Maybe it's just a warped sense of humor. This is year 2 of a 3-year contract. Will a two-thirds empty arena Friday, probably worse Saturday, get both sides to think again about abandoning year 3?
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Cornell red plus St. Patrick's green equals a Christmasy look.
It's disappointing to see Cornell lose badly but not heartbreaking the way it is to cough up a lead and then lose late or in OT, as Harvard did at our hands in the ECACs a decade ago. This was such a crushing loss it's hard to say Brian Ferlin and Rob Pannell combined would have made a difference. We could not cope with Harvard bottling up our breakout and repeatedly intercepting the puck before we got to center ice. I was rooting for a Harvard victory over Yale last weekend thinking they'd be beatable and it's always sweeter to take down Harvard than Colgate or Yale. It appears Cornell needs a consolation tie or win to make the NCAAs, else we're out no matter who else wins or loses. Let's hope Colgate is more accommodating Saturday than the Crimson.
[edit add:] I modified the end of the subject field as the thread shifted to a discussion of the merits and demerits of Lake Placid, Albany, Atlantic City, and the attendance at the sites.
Great post, not much else to say. This was by far the worst loss of the season in the season's biggest game. Win and we're in, but I can't say I'm too confident about it.
Great photos Bill, as always. Too bad you didn't get a photo of the scoreboard early in the second period, when it showed us with 5 shots on goal and Harvard with 4 goals. That's not a winning combination!
Quote from: BearLoverGreat post, not much else to say. This was by far the worst loss of the season in the season's biggest game. Win and we're in, but I can't say I'm too confident about it.
Terrific post. Thank you.
Terrible showing by Cornell. My wife wondered whether the whole team were sick with the flu, given how lackluster they played in each phase of the game.
Re Saturday's game, we are about to learn a lot about this team's character.
Excellent photos, Bill. I particularly like the first one.
Quote from: BearLoverGreat post, not much else to say. This was by far the worst loss of the season in the season's biggest game. Win and we're in, but I can't say I'm too confident about it.
I can honestly say that this is the first time that I do not really care if they make it or not. It's clearly wrong to feel that way and I know the team has achieved more, much more than could have been expected at the start of the season, but still....
That RPI loss and now this Harvard loss really makes me just want the season to be over and move on to a clean slate next year.
Quote from: dbilmeswhen it showed us with 5 shots on goal and Harvard with 4 goals. That's not a winning combination!
I am reminded of the Wayne Gretzky quote, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." Too much dicking around with the puck looking for the perfect shot; not enough throwing it on net and working for good things on rebounds.
Agreed. This team didn't show up for the biggest game of the year. We'll learn a lot about their character tonight, against a team with absolutely nothing to play for other than spoiler.
Didn't discourage me from heading down today, just have to get a bit of an earlier start. Hope there's still a good sized crowd like last night.
Quote from: trainbowQuote from: BearLoverGreat post, not much else to say. This was by far the worst loss of the season in the season's biggest game. Win and we're in, but I can't say I'm too confident about it.
Terrific post. Thank you. Terrible showing by Cornell. My wife wondered whether the whole team were sick with the flu, given how lackluster they played in each phase of the game. Re Saturday's game, we are about to learn a lot about this team's character.
We'll learn about Cornell's character. Also about the randomness of sporting event outcomes. No team wins 100% of its games (except 1970) and sometimes you can have your worst game at a bad moment. At this point, an attainable ending to the Cornell hockey season would be to beat Colgate, get an NCAA seeding within driving distance (Bridgeport never looked so good, games are Fri-Sat; Worcester is Sat-Sun), and emerge with a victory.
Part of me wishes for victories today by Cornell and Harvard so three ECAC teams make the NCAAs. It's a sign of my age and distaste for the aura (stench?) of big time college sports that I'd like to see three academically stellar schools in the NCAAs. I'd love to see Union make the Frozen Four. Root for academically inclined schools, root for New York State schools, root for itty bitty D1 schools that frost the NCAA, the NCAA's thinking being that only mega-universities deserve to be D1 and it's so, somehow, unfair that a small school tries to focus its excellence on one or two sports only
Wasn't even Harvard's band. They were stuck in Albequerque so they hired a faculty band from SJU to play for them. Kind of reminds me of this moment from the 2010 World Cup (http://deadspin.com/5564578/north-korean-soccer-fans-are-actually-chinese-volunteers).
Quote from: css228Wasn't even Harvard's band. They were stuck in Albequerque so they hired a faculty band from SJU to play for them. Kind of reminds me of this moment from the 2010 World Cup (http://deadspin.com/5564578/north-korean-soccer-fans-are-actually-chinese-volunteers).
I wondered about that especially because the band played in tune. They also struck up military anthems. The Harvard Mercenary & Hessian Dismounted Marching Band. When Cornell needs musically gifted help on the road, it calls on alums.
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: dbilmeswhen it showed us with 5 shots on goal and Harvard with 4 goals. That's not a winning combination!
I am reminded of the Wayne Gretzky quote, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." Too much dicking around with the puck looking for the perfect shot; not enough throwing it on net and working for good things on rebounds.
To be fair, every time we did just throw it on net, there were 3 Harvard guys in the way to block the shot. Harvard managed to clog the defensive zone and then get open rushes.
Quote from: DafatoneQuote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: dbilmeswhen it showed us with 5 shots on goal and Harvard with 4 goals. That's not a winning combination!
I am reminded of the Wayne Gretzky quote, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." Too much dicking around with the puck looking for the perfect shot; not enough throwing it on net and working for good things on rebounds.
To be fair, every time we did just throw it on net, there were 3 Harvard guys in the way to block the shot. Harvard managed to clog the defensive zone and then get open rushes.
Cornell attempted 26 shots in the first period. Harvard blocked 16 (http://www.theithacajournal.com/article/20120316/SPORTS/203160426/Big-Red-beaten-ECAC-Hockey-semis?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CSports) of them.
Quote from: DafatoneQuote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: dbilmeswhen it showed us with 5 shots on goal and Harvard with 4 goals. That's not a winning combination!
I am reminded of the Wayne Gretzky quote, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." Too much dicking around with the puck looking for the perfect shot; not enough throwing it on net and working for good things on rebounds.
To be fair, every time we did just throw it on net, there were 3 Harvard guys in the way to block the shot. Harvard managed to clog the defensive zone and then get open rushes.
Sure, but how many times did Esposito try to take it all the way into the Harvard end by himself and have it stripped and taken the other way after one too many attempted move? This was happening even toward the end of the game. You'd figure after a while of that not working the guys would try some other strategy.
Quote from: billhowardWithout Cornell in the late game Saturday, the Union-Harvard title match would safely fit in Hobey Baker Rink.
Without Cornell, it's likely the title match would safely fit in the Hobey Baker Award.
Maybe Friday was all a bad dream?
http://shop.cbssports.com/CBS_Cornell_Big_Red/browse/featuredProduct/829640/source/EML12_HM_HOCKEYCHAMPS_CRNL_A_C_0317B?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=EML12_HM_HOCKEYCHAMPS_CRNL&utm_campaign=EML12_HM_HOCKEYCHAMPS
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Thank you, CBS Sports. Jeff, you beat me to the post, but one picture is a thousand words, right? Monday, the tees will probably be on their way to Burundi joining those Patriots SB 2012 Champs tees.
Quote from: billhowardThank you, CBS Sports. Jeff, you beat me to the post, but one picture is a thousand words, right? Monday, the tees will probably be on their way to Burundi joining those Patriots SB 2012 Champs tees.
Indeed, it is, thanks Bill. I was tempted to see what would happen if I ordered one.
Quote from: jeff '84Quote from: billhowardThank you, CBS Sports. Jeff, you beat me to the post, but one picture is a thousand words, right? Monday, the tees will probably be on their way to Burundi joining those Patriots SB 2012 Champs tees.
Indeed, it is, thanks Bill. I was tempted to see what would happen if I ordered one.
Last time I was in Cape Cod you could still buy BC 2000 National Championship (hockey) hats at a store in Hyannis. That is the only such item that I have ever seen available for purchase.
Quote from: jeff '84Quote from: billhowardThank you, CBS Sports. Jeff, you beat me to the post, but one picture is a thousand words, right? Monday, the tees will probably be on their way to Burundi joining those Patriots SB 2012 Champs tees.
Indeed, it is, thanks Bill. I was tempted to see what would happen if I ordered one.
You'd be rejected because your order was placed without first loading Adobe Flash 11.0.1 (11.0.0 was last week) and the Octahedron driver.
Quote from: billhowardThank you, CBS Sports. Jeff, you beat me to the post, but one picture is a thousand words, right? Monday, the tees will probably be on their way to Burundi joining those Patriots SB 2012 Champs tees.
The best part may be the description:
QuoteYour Big Red have proven to be the toughest things on ice since wooly mammoths roamed the earth.
If we ordered enough of them, could we alter history?
Bill - please let me know if you have a higher-res version of the TV crew shot. I'd greatly appreciate it.
CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA all drew 10,000-plus to its title games according to box score reports, ECAC was sub-5,000, and AHA was sub-2,500 even with the event in RIT's home town.
[b]
League Finals Capacity Pct. Arena Teams in Final[/b]
AHA 2,443 11,200 22% Blue Cross Arena, Rochester Air Force, RIT
ECAC 4,131 10,500 39% Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City Union, Harvard
CCHA 10,421 20,056 52% Joe Louis Arena, Detroit W Michigan, Michigan
H East 13,079 17,565 74% TD Bank Garden, Boston BC, Maine
WCHA 16,838 18,064 93% Xcel Energy Center, St. Paul N Dakota, Denver
For the ECAC, was it the venue? The teams? The small-city size? CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA are in real cities. IIRC the Albany finals were 5,000-plus but not 10,000-plus in a building that holds 17,500 for hockey.
Quote from: billhowardCCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA all drew 10,000-plus to its title games according to box score reports, ECAC was sub-5,000, and AHA was sub-2,500 even with the event in RIT's home town.
[b]
League Finals Capacity Pct. Arena Teams in Final[/b]
AHA 2,443 11,200 22% Blue Cross Arena, Rochester Air Force, RIT
ECAC 4,131 10,500 39% Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City Union, Harvard
CCHA 10,421 20,056 52% Joe Louis Arena, Detroit W Michigan, Michigan
H East 13,079 17,565 74% TD Bank Garden, Boston BC, Maine
WCHA 16,838 18,064 93% Xcel Energy Center, St. Paul N Dakota, Denver
For the ECAC, was it the venue? The teams? The small-city size? CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA are in real cities. IIRC the Albany finals were 5,000-plus but not 10,000-plus in a building that holds 17,500 for hockey.
Another point to remember: the AHA does not hold a consolation game, so I'd bet that most of the 2,443 in Rochester were actually inside the BCA for the final. To me, it didn't look (from the webcast) like there were any more than 1,500 in the building for the ECAC final.
I posted previous attendance figures on the forum last year, so I have them handy. I've also added the last three years in Lake Placid (capacity 7,700), which is as far back as collegehockeystats.net goes.
Atlantic City2012: 4,131 (Union, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2011: 4,126 (Yale, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
Albany2010: 6,505 (Cornell, Union, Brown, St. Lawrence)
2009: 4,857 (Yale, Cornell, St. Lawrence, Princeton)
2008: 4,851 (Princeton, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2007: 5,565 (Clarkson, Quinnipiac, St. Lawrence, Dartmouth)
2006: 7,093 (Harvard, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
2005: 8,637 (Cornell, Harvard, Colgate, Vermont)
2004: 6,489 (Harvard, Clarkson, Colgate, Dartmouth)
2003: 8,296 (Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown)
Lake Placid2002: 6,518 (Harvard, Cornell, RPI, Clarkson)
2001: 6,256 (St. Lawrence, Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth)
2000: 6,790 (St. Lawrence, RPI, Colgate, Cornell)
Another thing: during the trophy presentation, neither the rink announcer nor Steve Hagwell made any mention of hoping to see people back in 2013.
Quote from: billhowardCCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA all drew 10,000-plus to its title games according to box score reports, ECAC was sub-5,000, and AHA was sub-2,500 even with the event in RIT's home town.
[b]
League Finals Capacity Pct. Arena Teams in Final[/b]
AHA 2,443 11,200 22% Blue Cross Arena, Rochester Air Force, RIT
ECAC 4,131 10,500 39% Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City Union, Harvard
CCHA 10,421 20,056 52% Joe Louis Arena, Detroit W Michigan, Michigan
H East 13,079 17,565 74% TD Bank Garden, Boston BC, Maine
WCHA 16,838 18,064 93% Xcel Energy Center, St. Paul N Dakota, Denver
For the ECAC, was it the venue? The teams? The small-city size? CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA are in real cities. IIRC the Albany finals were 5,000-plus but not 10,000-plus in a building that holds 17,500 for hockey.
I can't believe there wouldn't have been more at Albany. CU fans could easily drive up, closer for Colgate and Harvard's few, and certainly more Union and Capital District CU fans.
And since I left before Saturday's games, were there really more people there for the finals than on Friday? Or was that number counting everybody who went home after Friday?
Quote from: kingpin248Quote from: billhowardCCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA all drew 10,000-plus to its title games according to box score reports, ECAC was sub-5,000, and AHA was sub-2,500 even with the event in RIT's home town.
[b]
League Finals Capacity Pct. Arena Teams in Final[/b]
AHA 2,443 11,200 22% Blue Cross Arena, Rochester Air Force, RIT
ECAC 4,131 10,500 39% Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City Union, Harvard
CCHA 10,421 20,056 52% Joe Louis Arena, Detroit W Michigan, Michigan
H East 13,079 17,565 74% TD Bank Garden, Boston BC, Maine
WCHA 16,838 18,064 93% Xcel Energy Center, St. Paul N Dakota, Denver
For the ECAC, was it the venue? The teams? The small-city size? CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA are in real cities. IIRC the Albany finals were 5,000-plus but not 10,000-plus in a building that holds 17,500 for hockey.
Another point to remember: the AHA does not hold a consolation game, so I'd bet that most of the 2,443 in Rochester were actually inside the BCA for the final. To me, it didn't look (from the webcast) like there were any more than 1,500 in the building for the ECAC final.
I posted previous attendance figures on the forum last year, so I have them handy. I've also added the last three years in Lake Placid (capacity 7,700), which is as far back as collegehockeystats.net goes.
Atlantic City
2012: 4,131 (Union, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2011: 4,126 (Yale, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
Albany
2010: 6,505 (Cornell, Union, Brown, St. Lawrence)
2009: 4,857 (Yale, Cornell, St. Lawrence, Princeton)
2008: 4,851 (Princeton, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2007: 5,565 (Clarkson, Quinnipiac, St. Lawrence, Dartmouth)
2006: 7,093 (Harvard, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
2005: 8,637 (Cornell, Harvard, Colgate, Vermont)
2004: 6,489 (Harvard, Clarkson, Colgate, Dartmouth)
2003: 8,296 (Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown)
Lake Placid
2002: 6,518 (Harvard, Cornell, RPI, Clarkson)
2001: 6,256 (St. Lawrence, Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth)
2000: 6,790 (St. Lawrence, RPI, Colgate, Cornell)
Another thing: during the trophy presentation, neither the rink announcer nor Steve Hagwell made any mention of hoping to see people back in 2013.
Good!
Quote from: Jim HylaQuote from: billhowardCCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA all drew 10,000-plus to its title games according to box score reports, ECAC was sub-5,000, and AHA was sub-2,500 even with the event in RIT's home town.
[b]
League Finals Capacity Pct. Arena Teams in Final[/b]
AHA 2,443 11,200 22% Blue Cross Arena, Rochester Air Force, RIT
ECAC 4,131 10,500 39% Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City Union, Harvard
CCHA 10,421 20,056 52% Joe Louis Arena, Detroit W Michigan, Michigan
H East 13,079 17,565 74% TD Bank Garden, Boston BC, Maine
WCHA 16,838 18,064 93% Xcel Energy Center, St. Paul N Dakota, Denver
For the ECAC, was it the venue? The teams? The small-city size? CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA are in real cities. IIRC the Albany finals were 5,000-plus but not 10,000-plus in a building that holds 17,500 for hockey.
I can't believe there wouldn't have been more at Albany. CU fans could easily drive up, closer for Colgate and Harvard's few, and certainly more Union and Capital District CU fans.
And since I left before Saturday's games, were there really more people there for the finals than on Friday? Or was that number counting everybody who went home after Friday?
I'd say there were definitely more Cornell fans there on Friday than Saturday, but there were definitely a good deal of fans there. Some different ones, admittedly. But there were by FAR more people for the Cornell-Colgate consolation game than the Union-Harvard final. Overall I would say there were more fans Friday than Saturday, by sight alone.
Quote from: Jim HylaQuote from: kingpin248Quote from: billhowardCCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA all drew 10,000-plus to its title games according to box score reports, ECAC was sub-5,000, and AHA was sub-2,500 even with the event in RIT's home town.
[b]
League Finals Capacity Pct. Arena Teams in Final[/b]
AHA 2,443 11,200 22% Blue Cross Arena, Rochester Air Force, RIT
ECAC 4,131 10,500 39% Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City Union, Harvard
CCHA 10,421 20,056 52% Joe Louis Arena, Detroit W Michigan, Michigan
H East 13,079 17,565 74% TD Bank Garden, Boston BC, Maine
WCHA 16,838 18,064 93% Xcel Energy Center, St. Paul N Dakota, Denver
For the ECAC, was it the venue? The teams? The small-city size? CCHA, Hockey East, and WCHA are in real cities. IIRC the Albany finals were 5,000-plus but not 10,000-plus in a building that holds 17,500 for hockey.
Another point to remember: the AHA does not hold a consolation game, so I'd bet that most of the 2,443 in Rochester were actually inside the BCA for the final. To me, it didn't look (from the webcast) like there were any more than 1,500 in the building for the ECAC final.
I posted previous attendance figures on the forum last year, so I have them handy. I've also added the last three years in Lake Placid (capacity 7,700), which is as far back as collegehockeystats.net goes.
Atlantic City
2012: 4,131 (Union, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2011: 4,126 (Yale, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
Albany
2010: 6,505 (Cornell, Union, Brown, St. Lawrence)
2009: 4,857 (Yale, Cornell, St. Lawrence, Princeton)
2008: 4,851 (Princeton, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2007: 5,565 (Clarkson, Quinnipiac, St. Lawrence, Dartmouth)
2006: 7,093 (Harvard, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
2005: 8,637 (Cornell, Harvard, Colgate, Vermont)
2004: 6,489 (Harvard, Clarkson, Colgate, Dartmouth)
2003: 8,296 (Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown)
Lake Placid
2002: 6,518 (Harvard, Cornell, RPI, Clarkson)
2001: 6,256 (St. Lawrence, Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth)
2000: 6,790 (St. Lawrence, RPI, Colgate, Cornell)
Another thing: during the trophy presentation, neither the rink announcer nor Steve Hagwell made any mention of hoping to see people back in 2013.
Good!
Bad as to the 2008 and 2009 attendance. Those poor showings are the genesis of the move.::cuss::
Quote from: kingpin248Another point to remember: the AHA does not hold a consolation game, so I'd bet that most of the 2,443 in Rochester were actually inside the BCA for the final.
Another thing that hurt the AHA attendance was that the RIT women were playing for the NCAA DIII Championship at the exact same time at RIT as the AF - RIT game at the BCA. So I know that pulled from the attendance the AHA game.
Quote from: MattSQuote from: kingpin248Another point to remember: the AHA does not hold a consolation game, so I'd bet that most of the 2,443 in Rochester were actually inside the BCA for the final.
Another thing that hurt the AHA attendance was that the RIT women were playing for the NCAA DIII Championship at the exact same time at RIT as the AF - RIT game at the BCA. So I know that pulled from the attendance the AHA game.
Not to mention that Air Force, being halfway across the country, wasn't likely to have much of a showing there.
I stayed for the first 10 or 15 minutes of the second game. There were more Cornell fans there than Harvard fans (Union had a decent showing though). I also got told off by security for heckling the Harvard sieve.
Quote from: kingpin248Another thing: during the trophy presentation, neither the rink announcer nor Steve Hagwell made any mention of hoping to see people back in 2013.
There were also no flyers being distributed offering fans a chance to preorder tickets for next year's finals, as there were in 2011.
ECAC tournament attendance since 2000. The chart shows Saturday attendance for 3 years in Lake Placid, for 8 years in Albany, and 2 years in Atlantic City. All red bar means Cornell played in the title game; half red, Cornell played in the semis and consolation; gray, Cornell didn't make it to the semis.
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Thanks, Kingpin, for pulling together the attendance numbers back to 2000, and I hope I transcribed correctly.
The highest attendance was: Albany with Cornell and Harvard in the final (2003, 2005, 2006), followed by Albany with Cornell and Union in the final (2010).
The two years Cornell failed to make the semifinal/final round (2004, 2007), attendance fell 22% from the year before when the title game was Cornell-Harvard.
Stats for only the last 3 years in Lake Placid may not be enough to be significant. Cornell was there all 3 years and either St. Lawrence or Clarkson was there all 3 years. Attendance was pretty consistent, around 6,500 each year. The place holds ~ 8,000 so you could see how the ECAC worried about selling out (the arena, not the fans. That came with Atlantic City.)
Any suggestions why the 3-year dip in Albany 2007, 2008, 2009? (Average attendance, 5,100) That's probably what got the ECAC looking around, and when the title game in the final Albany year was Cornell-Union and attendance shot up by a third, maybe the ECAC already had boardwalk fever.
I think the best draw in the future would be Cornell, Harvard and Union or RPI as the final four, in Albany, with the title game Cornell-Union/RPI or Cornell-Harvard. But that seems obvious even without a chart.
So if you're the ECAC, what's your next step?
Quote from: kingpin248I posted previous attendance figures on the forum last year, so I have them handy. I've also added the last three years in Lake Placid (capacity 7,700), which is as far back as collegehockeystats.net goes.
Atlantic City
2012: 4,131 (Union, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2011: 4,126 (Yale, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
Albany
2010: 6,505 (Cornell, Union, Brown, St. Lawrence)
2009: 4,857 (Yale, Cornell, St. Lawrence, Princeton)
2008: 4,851 (Princeton, Harvard, Cornell, Colgate)
2007: 5,565 (Clarkson, Quinnipiac, St. Lawrence, Dartmouth)
2006: 7,093 (Harvard, Cornell, Dartmouth, Colgate)
2005: 8,637 (Cornell, Harvard, Colgate, Vermont)
2004: 6,489 (Harvard, Clarkson, Colgate, Dartmouth)
2003: 8,296 (Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown)
Lake Placid
2002: 6,518 (Harvard, Cornell, RPI, Clarkson)
2001: 6,256 (St. Lawrence, Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth)
2000: 6,790 (St. Lawrence, RPI, Colgate, Cornell)
Another thing: during the trophy presentation, neither the rink announcer nor Steve Hagwell made any mention of hoping to see people back in 2013.
Quote from: billhowardThe highest attendance was: Albany with Cornell and Harvard in the final (2003, 2005, 2006), followed by Albany with Cornell and Union in the final (2010).
In both the years when attendance broke 8,000, the Big Red were especially dominant in the regular season (39 points both times, if memory serves).
Quote from: billhowardStats for only the last 3 years in Lake Placid may not be enough to be significant. Cornell was there all 3 years and either St. Lawrence or Clarkson was there all 3 years. Attendance was pretty consistent, around 6,500 each year. The place holds ~ 8,000 so you could see how the ECAC worried about selling out (the arena, not the fans. That came with Atlantic City.)
Agree on all. I did notice that a North Country team was present in each of those last LP years. In fact, either Clarkson or St. Lawrence made the final four at all ten tournaments in Placid - and the '99 final might have sold out the Olympic Center, as it was an all-North Country affair.
Quote from: billhowardAny suggestions why the 3-year dip in Albany 2007, 2008, 2009? (Average attendance, 5,100) That's probably what got the ECAC looking around, and when the title game in the final Albany year was Cornell-Union and attendance shot up by a third, maybe the ECAC already had boardwalk fever.
I would think so, given that the decision to go to Atlantic City was announced in September 2009.
Quote from: adamwBill - please let me know if you have a higher-res version of the TV crew shot. I'd greatly appreciate it.
Uploaded. A couple other people asked about photos, too. I uploaded all or most all the Cornell section, band, and RPI TV photos to my photo site. Go to billhoward.phanfare.com/cornellsports (http://www.billhoward.phanfare.com/cornellsports)
Quote from: css228Quote from: MattSQuote from: kingpin248Another point to remember: the AHA does not hold a consolation game, so I'd bet that most of the 2,443 in Rochester were actually inside the BCA for the final.
Another thing that hurt the AHA attendance was that the RIT women were playing for the NCAA DIII Championship at the exact same time at RIT as the AF - RIT game at the BCA. So I know that pulled from the attendance the AHA game.
Not to mention that Air Force, being halfway across the country, wasn't likely to have much of a showing there.
The fact that it was St. Patrick's Day may also have had something to do with it.
Quote from: kingpin248Quote from: billhowardQuote from: billhowardAny suggestions why the 3-year dip in Albany 2007, 2008, 2009? (Average attendance, 5,100) That's probably what got the ECAC looking around, and when the title game in the final Albany year was Cornell-Union and attendance shot up by a third, maybe the ECAC already had boardwalk fever.
I would think so, given that the decision to go to Atlantic City was announced in September 2009.
Many of us remember the boos at the mention of Atlantic City during the 2010 Albany ECACs. Some of us participated in those catcalls.
Quote from: billhowardI think the best draw in the future would be Cornell, Harvard and Union or RPI as the final four, in Albany, with the title game Cornell-Union/RPI or Cornell-Harvard. But that seems obvious even without a chart.
What the chart doesn't have is a Cornell-Clarkson tournament. Note that each year that we missed, Clarkson was there. I suspect when Casey gets that program back on track, and if the tournament gets back to a place that's within reasonable driving distance for them, they will be the second biggest draw.
Quote from: Jim HylaQuote from: billhowardI think the best draw in the future would be Cornell, Harvard and Union or RPI as the final four, in Albany, with the title game Cornell-Union/RPI or Cornell-Harvard. But that seems obvious even without a chart.
What the chart doesn't have is a Cornell-Clarkson tournament. Note that each year that we missed, Clarkson was there. I suspect when Casey gets that program back on track, and if the tournament gets back to a place that's within reasonable driving distance for them, they will be the second biggest draw.
Indeed, my only quibble with Bill's post is that the biggest draw in Albany is indubitably the Clarkson, Cornell, RPI, and Union foursome, preferably with Cornell and Clarkson coming in as #1 and #2 so that fans have a bit more time to consider making the trip.
Quote from: martyQuote from: kingpin248Quote from: billhowardQuote from: billhowardAny suggestions why the 3-year dip in Albany 2007, 2008, 2009? (Average attendance, 5,100) That's probably what got the ECAC looking around, and when the title game in the final Albany year was Cornell-Union and attendance shot up by a third, maybe the ECAC already had boardwalk fever.
I would think so, given that the decision to go to Atlantic City was announced in September 2009.
Many of us remember the boos at the mention of Atlantic City during the 2010 Albany ECACs. Some of us participated in those catcalls.
There was booing for Atlantic City at the MSG game, too. It was glorious.
Quote from: Scersk '97Indeed, my only quibble with Bill's post is that the biggest draw in Albany is indubitably the Clarkson, Cornell, RPI, and Union foursome, preferably with Cornell and Clarkson coming in as #1 and #2 so that fans have a bit more time to consider making the trip.
The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that what is really needed is more success at a national level so more casual fans give a crap. Seriously, the ECAC is rightly viewed as the also-ran of D1 hockey: last national championship in 1989, last title game appearance 1990, last frozen four appearance 2003. Trying to hunt for higher attendance by moving the tournament around is like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, when what is needed is a course change. I know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament; by comparison, I barely know anyone lacking an ECAC association who even knows what the ECAC is, much less who would bother going to a tournament featuring teams that seem to be content competing in a walled garden.
Quote from: Jim HylaAnd since I left before Saturday's games, were there really more people there for the finals than on Friday? Or was that number counting everybody who went home after Friday?
We'd have to know whether those are ticket sales or turnstile numbers.
Cornell and Union had OK showings; Colgate and Harvard had zippo. The building felt empty and there was no energy except for the last 5 minutes or so of the final. They have to move the tournament to a different city. It was an interesting experiment, but it failed.
Is Broome County (Binghamton) a possibility? Only 6500 seats, but that might actually work to the advantage of the tournament by generating a shortage.
The XL Center in Hartford is undergoing a $100M renovation, and they will be looking for events to show it off.
The DCU Center in Worcester has 12k seats (8k when they shut down the upper bowl).
And there always the War Memorial, site of the deceased, unlamented, but aptly named Syracuse Hockey Invitational Tournament. Again, tiny (600), but it would be full.
Quote from: Kyle RoseThe more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that what is really needed is more success at a national level so more casual fans give a crap. Seriously, the ECAC is rightly viewed as the also-ran of D1 hockey: last national championship in 1989, last title game appearance 1990, last frozen four appearance 2003. Trying to hunt for higher attendance by moving the tournament around is like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, when what is needed is a course change. I know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament; by comparison, I barely know anyone lacking an ECAC association who even knows what the ECAC is, much less who would bother going to a tournament featuring teams that seem to be content competing in a walled garden.
To my utter shock, I met more than one casual fan at the tournament - the one for whom I remember the details was a D-III college hockey fan who lives in Philadelphia, and figured he'd come see what all the fuss is about with D-I. He was impressed.
Not with Cornell, natch.
Quote from: Kyle RoseI know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament
I wonder how much of that is the Boston area connection, where college hockey is prominent and lots of fans have six degrees of separation connections via having grown up with players, coaches, etc.
Boston does have the huge advantage that college hockey is advertised throughout the year, and the Beanpot gives local people a reason to go and get interested in the sport. It's the healthiest hockey atmosphere in the northeast, it's a
genuine destination city, so it's ideal.
The only remotely (by a 1:20 ratio) comparable place we have for grassroots civic involvement is Albany. Given that Union and Cornell are poised for several more years of very good teams and that Casey may have finally pulled Clarkson's head out of its nether regions, there is at least the potential to build up a real tradition. The future of the league is definitely west. BU/BC suck all the air out of the eastern end of the league, and there is no strongly competitive force on the western border yet.
What would be so wrong with changing the whole tournament, so only the top 8 teams make it, there's 3 weekends of best of 3 series, and they're all at the home of the higher seed? You would be more likely to actually have the best teams make it further, and having a home team would probably increase attendance for almost all of the games.
I know it takes out the "Cinderella" but wouldn't having the 11-seed Brown somehow make it to the NCAA tourney 2 years ago have just embarrassed the league? Not that some of the teams that have been at the top of our league haven't done the same.
I don't see how that kind of drastic change would ever happen, so I think I agree with Kyle the biggest thing the ECAC could do is improve the product on the ice. As college hockey has more and more big schools and big money involved, however, that becomes less and less likely. Likely, we just have to live with the fact that we're in a third-rate league and I guess just be grateful that a benefit of the low attendance is we can decide last-minute on travel plans and still have pretty easy access to tickets. Because I don't see what we can do about it.
Quote from: TrotskyQuote from: Kyle RoseI know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament
I wonder how much of that is the Boston area connection, where college hockey is prominent and lots of fans have six degrees of separation connections via having grown up with players, coaches, etc.
That doesn't seem to help Harvard or Northeastern. Casual fans go to see the nationally-competitive teams, not the crappy ones. I think you need to stop looking at this as a location problem.
Quote from: Ronald '09What would be so wrong with changing the whole tournament, so only the top 8 teams make it, there's 3 weekends of best of 3 series, and they're all at the home of the higher seed? You would be more likely to actually have the best teams make it further, and having a home team would probably increase attendance for almost all of the games.
I know it takes out the "Cinderella" but wouldn't having the 11-seed Brown somehow make it to the NCAA tourney 2 years ago have just embarrassed the league? Not that some of the teams that have been at the top of our league haven't done the same.
I don't see how that kind of drastic change would ever happen, so I think I agree with Kyle the biggest thing the ECAC could do is improve the product on the ice. As college hockey has more and more big schools and big money involved, however, that becomes less and less likely. Likely, we just have to live with the fact that we're in a third-rate league and I guess just be grateful that a benefit of the low attendance is we can decide last-minute on travel plans and still have pretty easy access to tickets. Because I don't see what we can do about it.
Totally in favor of the last 4 having no shot at it. If you're bad enough to be 9-12 you really don't deserve a shot at going to the national tourney.
Quote from: css228Totally in favor of the last 4 having no shot at it. If you're bad enough to be 9-12 you really don't deserve a shot at going to the national tourney.
s/4/8/ IMO: if you can't finish the RS in the top third of the league, you should stay home.
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: Scersk '97Indeed, my only quibble with Bill's post is that the biggest draw in Albany is indubitably the Clarkson, Cornell, RPI, and Union foursome, preferably with Cornell and Clarkson coming in as #1 and #2 so that fans have a bit more time to consider making the trip.
The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that what is really needed is more success at a national level so more casual fans give a crap. Seriously, the ECAC is rightly viewed as the also-ran of D1 hockey: last national championship in 1989, last title game appearance 1990, last frozen four appearance 2003. Trying to hunt for higher attendance by moving the tournament around is like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, when what is needed is a course change. I know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament; by comparison, I barely know anyone lacking an ECAC association who even knows what the ECAC is, much less who would bother going to a tournament featuring teams that seem to be content competing in a walled garden.
I think that nails it, along with the fact that many of the ECAC schools are on the smaller side and just don't have as large a following as many of the schools in the other conferences. There seems to be a steady but precipitous decline since 2003, for example, when Albany was really rocking. The only exception was 2010 when we played Union, and there was some real juice in the building. The last two years in AC have been pathetic.
Quote from: Ronald '09I don't see how that kind of drastic change would ever happen, so I think I agree with Kyle the biggest thing the ECAC could do is improve the product on the ice. As college hockey has more and more big schools and big money involved, however, that becomes less and less likely.
Even if there were big changes to the tournament league success is still the only way to draw crowds and generate excitement both on campus and in the communities.
The big systemic challenges for the ECAC are:
(1) The schools are very hard to get the best athletes into.
(2) The schools are very expensive for the athletes' families.
(3) The administrations resist actively marketing athletics.
(4) The locations are relatively rural.
These challenges can all be addressed, but we should maintain a balance so that the ECAC actually continues to correctly prioritize sports as an incidental part of the academic mission.
(1) can be addressed with, ahem, creative admissions for athletes. To some extent that is already done.
(2) can be addressed by expanding the need qualification. A lot of improvements have already been made.
(3) is simply something the Ivies in particular need to get over. You can market sports without losing your soul.
(4) can only be addressed by expanding into bigger markets. Buffalo comes to mind. Perhaps some day expansion into Philly, Baltimore, DC, or points south? If there are programs on the design board at Syracuse, or Navy, or some ACC school, we should elbow to the front of the welcome line.
I love the ECAC and there have to be creative ways to save it. There are a lot of smart and savvy people in the community. Spread out the decision-making mechanisms of the league, leverage all that intelligence, and have a long-range plan.
Quote from: Kyle RoseI know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament; by comparison, I barely know anyone lacking an ECAC association who even knows what the ECAC is, much less who would bother going to a tournament featuring teams that seem to be content competing in a walled garden.
For what it's worth (and I know one fan doesn't really prove anything), I saw a guy at the final with a UNH sweater.
Quote from: TrotskyQuote from: Kyle RoseI know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament
I wonder how much of that is the Boston area connection, where college hockey is prominent and lots of fans have six degrees of separation connections via having grown up with players, coaches, etc.
Well, here's a crack at a crackpot theory. It's about institutional branding. Specifically, regional magnetism.
Since the explosion of the sports industry in the 1990s (probably at least helped along by the rise of ESPN and 24-hour sports coverage), more and more fans who have little or no attachment to academic institutions have become more and more invested in collegiate athletics. Who are the casual fans drawn to? Teams that have a name they can relate to...where they are from. State and civic pride are remarkably strong.
People from Boston are notoriously provincial. They'll root for anything with the name "Boston" in it. Boston College and Boston University get that support that Northeastern and Harvard don't for this reason. Now expand that to the question you suggest. Why is it that so many more people are attracted to Hockey East than the ECAC? Look at the school names.
In Hockey East, I count 4 states and 4 cities (I'll put UMass Lowell in the city category). The remaining two are Merrimack (named for the Merrimack Valley) and Northeastern.
In the ECAC, there is ONE member named after their state or town, and that's Princeton. When you have that aspect, very few casual fans outside the immediate area are going to even think about supporting those teams. All you're going to have are these little fiefdoms of Ithaca, Canton, Potsdam, Hamilton, Schenectady, etc. Cornell gets a little coverage from the Elmira media, but more locals are going to care about Elmira College's teams. If the University of Maine were instead called "Orono State" or "Walsh College," I'd be willing to bet they would not have as much widespread state support.
Look at the list of NCAA Champions. The last champion to not have a city or state in their name was Lake Superior State in 1994. Notre Dame was close a few years ago, but their name recognition is for a different reason altogether. How many times have we been in a western arena and had to answer "Where the hell is Cornell, anyway??"
If you get local casual fan support, you get media support, which leads to more fan support. Getting every single yahoo in every corner of your city/region/state following you, especially when they have no prior connection to your University, is the biggest difference between Hockey East and ECAC tournament attendance, IMO.
Quote from: RichHWell, here's a crack at a crackpot theory.
Occam's Razor tells me you are overthinking this. Performance is the much simpler explanation.
Going strictly on the number of teams (i.e., assuming there is as much parity as Coach Schafer claims), you would expect an ECAC Frozen Four appearance 4 out of every 5 years and a championship 1 out of every 5 years. Of course, the distribution won't be smooth: you'll occasionally get 2 or 3 years in a row with no appearances, and some years with 2 or 3 teams, with even rarer outliers toward the tails. Contrast this with reality: over the past 20 years there have been 3 appearances, for 0.75 appearances out of every 5 years, and 0 titles, for... (adds, multiplies, exponentiates) roughly 0 out of every 5 years. I really don't think you need to look any more deeply than this.
Solve the performance problem, and attendance will follow. Don't, and deal with the ECAC being a second-tier league. In that case, it's probably time to ditch the tournament weekend altogether and just play the games at the higher-seeded team's rink.
Quote from: RichHQuote from: TrotskyQuote from: Kyle RoseI know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament
I wonder how much of that is the Boston area connection, where college hockey is prominent and lots of fans have six degrees of separation connections via having grown up with players, coaches, etc.
Well, here's a crack at a crackpot theory. It's about institutional branding. Specifically, regional magnetism.
...
So you're suggesting we change the name "Cornell" to "Central New York State." I like it.
Though alumni of Arts/Architecture/Engineering/Hotel may have a problem with it.
I would like to see a rotation among 3 spots: Albany, and a couple from: Providence/Harford/Bridgeport/Worcester. Thus each venue gets the tourney once every three years (helps to reduce the staleness factor) and the sites are still in the heart of the ECAC. The venues could use the off years to bid on hosting something that would likely bring in more money than the ECAC tourney: 1st round men's / women's basketball games, or a NC$$ hockey regional, or the circus.
Just my thoughts based on the complaints of others.
Quote from: Kyle RoseThe more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that what is really needed is more success at a national level so more casual fans give a crap. Seriously, the ECAC is rightly viewed as the also-ran of D1 hockey: last national championship in 1989, last title game appearance 1990, last frozen four appearance 2003. Trying to hunt for higher attendance by moving the tournament around is like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, when what is needed is a course change. I know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament; by comparison, I barely know anyone lacking an ECAC association who even knows what the ECAC is, much less who would bother going to a tournament featuring teams that seem to be content competing in a walled garden.
Kyle, you nailed it on the head. We're better only than Atlantic Hockey, give or take the unexpected RIT Frozen Four appearance a couple years ago.
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: RichHWell, here's a crack at a crackpot theory.
Occam's Razor tells me you are overthinking this.
Oh, most definitely. It's what I do. It's what a lot of us here do. My point is when you give a institutions of parallel conference broader geographic influences, you will have a much more profound effect of attendance increase with increased success. I'm not saying it's the primary factor, but it's a distinct advantage.
Also, if you have everyone in New Hampshire buying UNH jerseys, hats, foam wildcat claw fingers, (instead of say...Dartmouth stuff), it drives everything surrounding the program that's important to fans. From ticket sales to advertising to TV contracts, it all helps feed, ultimately, Athletic Department budgets. ADs can then reinvest in things like recruiting trips, training facilities, athletic housing, booster banquets, etc.
Schools with state branding have that as a built-in advantage, which is why it's always shocking when a Gonzaga, George Mason, Davidson, Valparaiso, or Butler run happens. Very seldom do you see a school described as a "Jock Factory" not have a state name. And when you do, it's usually a highly respected academic institution like Duke, Notre Dame, or Stanford.
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: RichHWell, here's a crack at a crackpot theory.
Occam's Razor tells me you are overthinking this. Performance is the much simpler explanation.
Going strictly on the number of teams (i.e., assuming there is as much parity as Coach Schafer claims), you would expect an ECAC Frozen Four appearance 4 out of every 5 years and a championship 1 out of every 5 years. Of course, the distribution won't be smooth: you'll occasionally get 2 or 3 years in a row with no appearances, and some years with 2 or 3 teams, with even rarer outliers toward the tails. Contrast this with reality: over the past 20 years there have been 3 appearances, for 0.75 appearances out of every 5 years, and 0 titles, for... (adds, multiplies, exponentiates) roughly 0 out of every 5 years. I really don't think you need to look any more deeply than this.
Solve the performance problem, and attendance will follow. Don't, and deal with the ECAC being a second-tier league. In that case, it's probably time to ditch the tournament weekend altogether and just play the games at the higher-seeded team's rink.
Ironic from someone who argues on most media threads that college hockey is a niche sport that can hope for little more than coverage on a reliable and high-quality internet stream. You think that theses passersby who you want to attend these events on a whim with happening to discover that NCAA Division I hockey is being sponsored will know anything about which programs have been successful recently or which teams/conferences have the most recent Frozen Four appearances? It does not follow logically. If it is so niche that the general public does not follow it and it deserves not general television coverage (an argument you made earlier this season on another thread), what are the odds that these people who you want to attend these events to boost attendance will have any clue which programs are good and which programs have recent NCAA success? The passerby with no knowledge of college hockey will see a name and be interested. Success of the conference or team is almost entirely irrelevant to the passerby who attends on a whim. Those facts are alien and often entirely unknown to him. It is true that success of the conference will increase attendance of fair-weather fans who are initiated already in the ways of college hockey, but it won't increase drive-by attendance as you imply. The former is the only effect that I can see that success of the conference will have upon attendance.
Branding and name association is what the ECAC needs. Yes, success gains television exposure which is integral to rebranding at lower costs, but it is the brand that people need to recognize. I agree with RichH's premise that it is due to locality and personal connection or perceived personal connection to an institution. Public universities that are named in such a way that associates them with their state have this connection built in for passerby attendees. The location of the ECAC Tournament does not help. It is the only conference tournament that is held without the conference footprint of the conference for which the championship is being played. Atlantic Hockey in Rochester, Hockey East in Boston, CCHA in Detroit, and WCHA in Saint Paul are all in locations where passerby attendance is expected because someone in those locations who might be visiting or a resident recognizes quickly the teams and often have a built-in affinity like RichH mentioned in his post.
The ECAC needs to rebrand itself with both success on the ice and effective marketing. The former will increase the attendance of fair-weather fans, the latter will grow the fanbase of ECAC hockey beyond the host cities of the institutions in the conference and their alumni bases. Cornell has the opportunity to begin the former type of rebranding on Friday.
Quote from: Greenberg '97So you're suggesting we change the name "Cornell" to "Central New York State." I like it.
Though alumni of Arts/Architecture/Engineering/Hotel may have a problem with it.
Personally, I would hate that (being an Engineering alumnus as you say), but it would create a better halo-effect of regional interest. The decentralized nature of the SUNY system (and the overall DIII nature of their athletic programs) sets NYS as one of the quirky exceptions. A huge portion of Upstate NY gravitates to Syracuse as a surrogate because that's a big focal city in the "where I'm from" argument, especially among the few options for BCS football or NCAA BB tournaments.
Rutgers is an interesting example, as it is the State University of NJ, as everyone from NJ knows, but I wouldn't expect the folksy folks of Iowa to be aware of that. They would probably get a big boost in revenue by going to an UNJ (or some such permutation) moniker.
UC-Berkeley is almost always referred to as "Berkeley" academically, but their athletic teams are always branded "California" or "Cal" being the first UC. Smart.
The only way to market sports is to win ... That's 95% of it. ... I've worked in sports my whole life, and no amount of marketing tricks will do the job otherwise. I've worked for some pro GMs who like to think otherwise, and they've always turned out to be wrong.
I think RichH is correct, in essence - but it's not changing. None of the ECAC schools are becoming "New York State" - so forget that.
So - combination of small market to draw from in the first place - combined with not as strong performances on a national scale...There really is no one to "blame" for this, it's just the way things have evolved.
I also believe attendance at the ECAC Tournament to be related to two additional, perhaps ironic or seemingly contradictory factors:
- the availability of games on TV
- the fact that the ECACs are not the be all, end all awesome thing to win like they used to be
I see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.
Rabid fans still tend to be parochial ... but less people are parochial (i.e. care) about their local sports team than they used to.
Quote from: RichHRutgers is an interesting example, as it is the State University of NJ, as everyone from NJ knows, but I wouldn't expect the folksy folks of Iowa to be aware of that. They would probably get a big boost in revenue by going to an UNJ (or some such permutation) moniker.
Associating yourself with New Jersey is probably the exception to the rule.
Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinIronic from someone who argues on most media threads that college hockey is a niche sport that can hope for little more than coverage on a reliable and high-quality internet stream.
I'm not going to go through your post and refute things point-by-point. I'll just say (a) that there is general knowledge in the northeast, even among casual hockey fans, that BU and BC are good at hockey and Harvard and Northeastern are not, (b) that even a number of casual fans some small percentage of which is large enough to fill a 14K arena can be a vanishingly small percentage of the population, thus making a traditional broadcast not economic versus other programming that could fill the same airtime, and (c) you are also overthinking this.
I have no doubt that the dynamic Rich described has something to do with relative interest in the two leagues, but I also know that the ECAC doesn't need to get another 1,000,000 fans to fill a tournament rink, which is why I think some success at the national level would suffice to put more asses in the seats.
Quote from: adamwThe only way to market sports is to win ... That's 95% of it. ... I've worked in sports my whole life, and no amount of marketing tricks will do the job otherwise. I've worked for some pro GMs who like to think otherwise, and they've always turned out to be wrong.
I think RichH is correct, in essence - but it's not changing. None of the ECAC schools are becoming "New York State" - so forget that.
So - combination of small market to draw from in the first place - combined with not as strong performances on a national scale...There really is no one to "blame" for this, it's just the way things have evolved.
I also believe attendance at the ECAC Tournament to be related to two additional, perhaps ironic or seemingly contradictory factors:
- the availability of games on TV
- the fact that the ECACs are not the be all, end all awesome thing to win like they used to be
I see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.
Rabid fans still tend to be parochial ... but less people are parochial (i.e. care) about their local sports team than they used to.
I agree with that entirely (I did not mean my one post to contradict that fact) but there are many people in my hometown in Upstate New York (about 90 miles from Ithaca) who do not even know that Cornell has a historically and currently successful hockey program. People need to know that these teams even exist. There are many who do not. The fact that college hockey is still a niche sport hurts opportunities for broader exposure. So, college hockey in general and the ECAC in particular suffer from lack of exposure. I know the logical retort, that the ECAC suffers from a dearth of exposure because it is not successful and no one wants to watch "subpar" hockey on a national stage. The first step is to be successful, far easier said than done, the next step is to use increased revenues to grow the fanbase for increase coverage, merchandise sales, and attendance. The goal should be to make the ECAC Championships an event. The CCHA makes a big deal out of marketing the "CCHA at the Joe" or "Michigan at the Joe," for Michigan in particular. The ECAC and Cornell should follow a similar approach. Other than pamphlets in Bartels Hall and at Red Hot Hockey, what marketing did the ECAC or Cornell do to promote attendance?
Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinThe goal should be to make the ECAC Championships an event. The CCHA makes a big deal out of marketing the "CCHA at the Joe" or "Michigan at the Joe," for Michigan in particular. The ECAC and Cornell should follow a similar approach. Other than pamphlets in Bartels Hall and at Red Hot Hockey, what marketing did the ECAC or Cornell do to promote attendance?
It's all the proverbial catch-22 ... Marketing takes money. When you say that the CCHA makes a big deal out of this ... where do you see them doing this? Anywhere not within their own TV broadcasts, web site, or press releases? Billboards in Detroit? ECAC had billboards in Atlantic City, for what it's worth -- although those were put up by the arena management, for sure.
Next ... Being at a catchy place called "The Joe" - is easy to market when there is such a place to market. "The Joe" itself is an attraction. What does the ECAC have to work with? Now we're back to venue discussions.
And ... I don't believe all that marketing is really selling anything anyway. Fans of the teams go there knowing their teams are good. Michigan is an enormous school, huge brand in the state, etc... THAT's the attraction. Not the marketing or anything else. If Michigan wasn't there, there would be crickets at The Joe. In fact, take a look at some video from the CCHA championship game. Lots of empty seats - even with Michigan in the final.
People have been lamenting the attendance at ECAC tournaments since the first one I ever went to - which was the last one in Boston - 1991 ... I've never heard a solution that would work. At this point, I find it all to be just -- it is what it is.
Quote from: adamwThe only way to market sports is to win ... That's 95% of it. ... I've worked in sports my whole life, and no amount of marketing tricks will do the job otherwise. I've worked for some pro GMs who like to think otherwise, and they've always turned out to be wrong.
Absolutely. Americans, despite our voracious appetite for the "underdog/Cinderella" stories, are ridiculous bandwagon/front-runners. We get obsessed over any team, as long as they win. At Cornell, hockey and lax rules the winter/spring. Trinity squash matches are known to be rowdy. UConn Women's basketball often overshadows their Men's team.
Conversely, when the Frozen Four was in DC, I lamented to a DC resident that it was too bad the Nats didn't have a home weekend scheduled and the response was "why do you want to go see them?? They suck!" However, I'm willing to bet Nationals Park will be a hot ticket if/when the potential Strasburg-Harper era really ramps up, just as when Ovechkin suddenly turned that city into a hockey town.
We support our local teams, but only if they're winners.
QuoteRabid fans still tend to be parochial ... but less people are parochial (i.e. care) about their local sports team than they used to.
At least beeeej does, given his avatar.
Quote from: adamwI see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.
So this leads to another question that's been itching to get out. What about our own undergraduates? My location in CT is pretty great to see lots of road games. I'm within a two-hour drive of 7 of the 12 ECAC arenas, and when you throw in recent OOC games at UMass & UNH, I've been very happy. What I perceive is a trend of fewer and fewer road-warrior undergrads than what I remember. It's easy to notice the bandies and cowbell player, but there used to be a solid group of students road-tripping to away arenas who would consolidate and really give us local alumni a shot of energy to help bring a bigger piece of the Lynah atmosphere along. In Atlantic City, I noticed a few pockets of fans that seemed to be current students or recent graduates, but there certainly didn't seem to be a Section Bs-worth of that demographic.
Is it my imagination? If not, is this a result of some of the reasons adamw ticks off above? Is the idea of following this team all over the northeast an outdated or too costly endeavor for current students? Is it that their nefarious Facebook iPad machines and 3D Twitter video games are turning their brains to mush? (OK, the last one was just to keep my curmudgeonly skills sharp.)
I understand that the concept of an online forum is pretty outdated with all the social media tools available. But I'll say that even here on eLF, with a few notable exceptions, we really don't see a whole lot of undergraduate/young alumni chatter.
Along those lines, I feel like I'm the youngest person still on Hockey-L (which will change during the off-season since I recently got a Hockey-L post titled "Marmaduke of the day." )
Quote from: RichHQuote from: adamwI see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.
So this leads to another question that's been itching to get out. What about our own undergraduates? My location in CT is pretty great to see lots of road games. I'm within a two-hour drive of 7 of the 12 ECAC arenas, and when you throw in recent OOC games at UMass & UNH, I've been very happy. What I perceive is a trend of fewer and fewer road-warrior undergrads than what I remember. It's obvious to notice the bandies and cowbell player, but there used to be a solid group of students road-tripping to away arenas who would consolidate and really give us local alumni a shot of energy to help bring a bigger piece of the Lynah atmosphere along. In Atlantic City, I noticed a few pockets of fans that seemed to be current students or recent graduates, but there certainly didn't seem to be a Section Bs-worth of that demographic.
Is it my imagination? If not, is this a result of some of the reasons adamw ticks off above? Is the idea of following this team all over the northeast an outdated or too costly endeavor for current students? Is it that their nefarious Facebook iPad machines and 3D Twitter video games are turning their brains to mush? (OK, the last one was just to keep my curmudgeonly skills sharp.)
I understand that the concept of an online forum is pretty outdated with all the social media tools available. But I'll say that even here on eLF, with a few notable exceptions, we really don't see a whole lot of undergraduate/young alumni chatter.
Along those lines, I feel like I'm the youngest person still on Hockey-L (which will change during the off-season since I recently got a Hockey-L post titled "Marmaduke of the day." )
Good points. Although this forum remains active, there's clearly far less discussion about the the games themselves -- strategy, analysis, that type of thing. And the undergraduate interest surely seems to have lagged. I used to enjoy the analysis from undergrads like Ari, Eli and Awash -- no one seems to have followed in their footsteps.
Quote from: RichHQuote from: adamwI see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.
So this leads to another question that's been itching to get out. What about our own undergraduates? My location in CT is pretty great to see lots of road games. I'm within a two-hour drive of 7 of the 12 ECAC arenas, and when you throw in recent OOC games at UMass & UNH, I've been very happy. What I perceive is a trend of fewer and fewer road-warrior undergrads than what I remember. It's obvious to notice the bandies and cowbell player, but there used to be a solid group of students road-tripping to away arenas who would consolidate and really give us local alumni a shot of energy to help bring a bigger piece of the Lynah atmosphere along. In Atlantic City, I noticed a few pockets of fans that seemed to be current students or recent graduates, but there certainly didn't seem to be a Section Bs-worth of that demographic.
Is it my imagination? If not, is this a result of some of the reasons adamw ticks off above? Is the idea of following this team all over the northeast an outdated or too costly endeavor for current students? Is it that their nefarious Facebook iPad machines and 3D Twitter video games are turning their brains to mush? (OK, the last one was just to keep my curmudgeonly skills sharp.)
I understand that the concept of an online forum is pretty outdated with all the social media tools available. But even here on eLF, with a few notable exceptions, we really don't see a whole lot of undergraduate/young alumni chatter.
Along those lines, I feel like I'm the youngest person still on Hockey-L (which will change during the off-season since I recently got a Hockey-L post titled "Marmaduke of the day." )
Among things I can think of:
Expense (especially gas costs)
Easier to follow the team from home (streaming, internet, etc.)
Its just more fun to spend a weekend in Ithaca than Potsdam or Canton, or most of the other locations in the league (this hasn't changed, but it increases the effects of the first two)
I personally enjoy road trips, but the only one I can guarantee other people will join me on is the Harvard-Dartmouth trip. Also I could probably connect this to my general belief that the people who would be the biggest supporters of Cornell Hockey are being priced out (instead of turning RPCC's main floor into a dry frosh only dance club once a month they should just thrown 10 more dollars of everyone's student activities fee into subsidizing season tickets so that they're more affordable) but I'm not going to make that effort.Main point is there's just so many more options for students now. If a few more bars in Ctown shut down and the administration keeps up its persecution of the open party however, maybe we'll see the return of road crowds.
Quote from: RichHQuote from: adamwI see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.
So this leads to another question that's been itching to get out. What about our own undergraduates? My location in CT is pretty great to see lots of road games. I'm within a two-hour drive of 7 of the 12 ECAC arenas, and when you throw in recent OOC games at UMass & UNH, I've been very happy. What I perceive is a trend of fewer and fewer road-warrior undergrads than what I remember. It's easy to notice the bandies and cowbell player, but there used to be a solid group of students road-tripping to away arenas who would consolidate and really give us local alumni a shot of energy to help bring a bigger piece of the Lynah atmosphere along. In Atlantic City, I noticed a few pockets of fans that seemed to be current students or recent graduates, but there certainly didn't seem to be a Section Bs-worth of that demographic.
Is it my imagination? If not, is this a result of some of the reasons adamw ticks off above? Is the idea of following this team all over the northeast an outdated or too costly endeavor for current students? Is it that their nefarious Facebook iPad machines and 3D Twitter video games are turning their brains to mush? (OK, the last one was just to keep my curmudgeonly skills sharp.)
I understand that the concept of an online forum is pretty outdated with all the social media tools available. But I'll say that even here on eLF, with a few notable exceptions, we really don't see a whole lot of undergraduate/young alumni chatter.
Along those lines, I feel like I'm the youngest person still on Hockey-L (which will change during the off-season since I recently got a Hockey-L post titled "Marmaduke of the day." )
As a young alumna, I know almost no one last year student-wise could make the trip down to AC for multiple reasons: too far, too expensive (the costs of driving being the biggest deterrent), not enough time to get there for the Friday games. And as for my friends who are rabid hockey fans currently on the hill, season ticket holders and otherwise, AC just wasn't feasible for them this year.
As far as I could tell at the game, there were VERY few students, especially at the Friday game. The Saturday game did have a few on the upper level, but overall it was surprising how few students were amongst the fans there.
While a lot of it comes down to money for some students, I know a lot of students who could easily afford it but either can't due to time constraints or other non-monetary reasons.
Quote from: css228Among things I can think of:
Expense (especially gas costs)
Easier to follow the team from home (streaming, internet, etc.)
Its just more fun to spend a weekend in Ithaca than Potsdam or Canton, or most of the other locations in the league (this hasn't changed, but it increases the effects of the first two)
I personally enjoy road trips, but the only one I can guarantee other people will join me on is the Harvard-Dartmouth trip. Also I could probably connect this to my general belief that the people who would be the biggest supporters of Cornell Hockey are being priced out (instead of turning RPCC's main floor into a dry frosh only dance club once a month they should just thrown 10 more dollars of everyone's student activities fee into subsidizing season tickets so that they're more affordable) but I'm not going to make that effort.Main point is there's just so many more options for students now. If a few more bars in Ctown shut down and the administration keeps up its persecution of the open party however, maybe we'll see the return of road crowds.
I'd echo all of these points, and add that (at least for me) the success of the women's team makes sticking around in Ithaca for the weekend seem more fun than hitting the road, but the cost and the time commitment are definitely the biggest factors.
-Edit-
One initiative that could revive the flagging away support (and this won't happen, but it would be nice if it did) would be for the Athletics department or whoever spends our Student Activity Fee to organize a block of tickets, travel arrangements, and perhaps accomodation, for away trips. This would make going away more of a community experience, might reduce costs, and would make the whole process much easier for student-fans.
Quote from: css228Quote from: RichHQuote from: adamwI see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.
So this leads to another question that's been itching to get out. What about our own undergraduates? My location in CT is pretty great to see lots of road games. I'm within a two-hour drive of 7 of the 12 ECAC arenas, and when you throw in recent OOC games at UMass & UNH, I've been very happy. What I perceive is a trend of fewer and fewer road-warrior undergrads than what I remember. It's obvious to notice the bandies and cowbell player, but there used to be a solid group of students road-tripping to away arenas who would consolidate and really give us local alumni a shot of energy to help bring a bigger piece of the Lynah atmosphere along. In Atlantic City, I noticed a few pockets of fans that seemed to be current students or recent graduates, but there certainly didn't seem to be a Section Bs-worth of that demographic.
Is it my imagination? If not, is this a result of some of the reasons adamw ticks off above? Is the idea of following this team all over the northeast an outdated or too costly endeavor for current students? Is it that their nefarious Facebook iPad machines and 3D Twitter video games are turning their brains to mush? (OK, the last one was just to keep my curmudgeonly skills sharp.)
I understand that the concept of an online forum is pretty outdated with all the social media tools available. But even here on eLF, with a few notable exceptions, we really don't see a whole lot of undergraduate/young alumni chatter.
Along those lines, I feel like I'm the youngest person still on Hockey-L (which will change during the off-season since I recently got a Hockey-L post titled "Marmaduke of the day." )
Among things I can think of:
Expense (especially gas costs)
Easier to follow the team from home (streaming, internet, etc.)
Its just more fun to spend a weekend in Ithaca than Potsdam or Canton, or most of the other locations in the league (this hasn't changed, but it increases the effects of the first two)
I personally enjoy road trips, but the only one I can guarantee other people will join me on is the Harvard-Dartmouth trip. Also I could probably connect this to my general belief that the people who would be the biggest supporters of Cornell Hockey are being priced out (instead of turning RPCC's main floor into a dry frosh only dance club once a month they should just thrown 10 more dollars of everyone's student activities fee into subsidizing season tickets so that they're more affordable) but I'm not going to make that effort.Main point is there's just so many more options for students now. If a few more bars in Ctown shut down and the administration keeps up its persecution of the open party however, maybe we'll see the return of road crowds.
Another deterrent to student travel (and I'm sure this is nothing new) is Ithaca's isolation, and the fact that many students don't have cars. Maybe more students would travel if it was easier (and I don't just mean cost wise). css, I'm sure you remember that when we went to the Colgate game, we didn't know if we were going until the night before because we couldn't find a ride. Has Cornell ever had a charter bus that follows the team and is organized by the athletic department? They should have one. I bet they could fill up a bus with 50 students for every trip. I would be willing to pay to go on one or two trips next year.
Quote from: adamwNext ... Being at a catchy place called "The Joe" - is easy to market when there is such a place to market. "The Joe" itself is an attraction. What does the ECAC have to work with? Now we're back to venue discussions.
Destination: Lake Placid!
Quote from: jtn27Quote from: css228Quote from: RichHQuote from: adamwI see this, for example, with HS Football ... In my area, HS football used to draw 6,000 rabid fans to a rivalry game against schools geographically next to each other ... Now, you get like 1,000 people - not as passionate. That's because a) there's so much more to do, b) people in the suburbs can turn on the TV and see 4,000 college and NFL games from the big city, so they get their fix there, and c) the rise of the State Playoff system, means the local game has less importance.
So this leads to another question that's been itching to get out. What about our own undergraduates? My location in CT is pretty great to see lots of road games. I'm within a two-hour drive of 7 of the 12 ECAC arenas, and when you throw in recent OOC games at UMass & UNH, I've been very happy. What I perceive is a trend of fewer and fewer road-warrior undergrads than what I remember. It's obvious to notice the bandies and cowbell player, but there used to be a solid group of students road-tripping to away arenas who would consolidate and really give us local alumni a shot of energy to help bring a bigger piece of the Lynah atmosphere along. In Atlantic City, I noticed a few pockets of fans that seemed to be current students or recent graduates, but there certainly didn't seem to be a Section Bs-worth of that demographic.
Is it my imagination? If not, is this a result of some of the reasons adamw ticks off above? Is the idea of following this team all over the northeast an outdated or too costly endeavor for current students? Is it that their nefarious Facebook iPad machines and 3D Twitter video games are turning their brains to mush? (OK, the last one was just to keep my curmudgeonly skills sharp.)
I understand that the concept of an online forum is pretty outdated with all the social media tools available. But even here on eLF, with a few notable exceptions, we really don't see a whole lot of undergraduate/young alumni chatter.
Along those lines, I feel like I'm the youngest person still on Hockey-L (which will change during the off-season since I recently got a Hockey-L post titled "Marmaduke of the day." )
Among things I can think of:
Expense (especially gas costs)
Easier to follow the team from home (streaming, internet, etc.)
Its just more fun to spend a weekend in Ithaca than Potsdam or Canton, or most of the other locations in the league (this hasn't changed, but it increases the effects of the first two)
I personally enjoy road trips, but the only one I can guarantee other people will join me on is the Harvard-Dartmouth trip. Also I could probably connect this to my general belief that the people who would be the biggest supporters of Cornell Hockey are being priced out (instead of turning RPCC's main floor into a dry frosh only dance club once a month they should just thrown 10 more dollars of everyone's student activities fee into subsidizing season tickets so that they're more affordable) but I'm not going to make that effort.Main point is there's just so many more options for students now. If a few more bars in Ctown shut down and the administration keeps up its persecution of the open party however, maybe we'll see the return of road crowds.
Another deterrent to student travel (and I'm sure this is nothing new) is Ithaca's isolation, and the fact that many students don't have cars. Maybe more students would travel if it was easier (and I don't just mean cost wise). css, I'm sure you remember that when we went to the Colgate game, we didn't know if we were going until the night before because we couldn't find a ride. Has Cornell ever had a charter bus that follows the team and is organized by the athletic department? They should have one. I bet they could fill up a bus with 50 students for every trip. I would be willing to pay to go on one or two trips next year.
I definitely remember that. Hitched a ride with the band for the night. Colgate would be a really easy trip for them to buy 200 tickets and organize a few buses, as tickets are pretty cheap, and its not far at all. I'd like to see Ben's idea, but I too have my doubts. I think it could greatly increase the attendance for a Yale-Brown or Union-RPI trip. Would be kind of pointless to use on Q-PAc & Princeton since that's over break, and as much as I enjoyed the North Country, that's always going to be a tough sell because its the North Country and there really isn't anything to do there other than the hockey. I also think that Athletics really should bring back the line to build student enthusiasm, or at least the ticket line equivalent they had my freshman year. I was the lucky winner of the opportunity to sit on the bench during Red-White. Let's just say I was totally sold on Cornell hockey fandom after that experience. I thought it was a mistake not to at least have a similar even this year for seat selection.
Quote from: jtwcornell91Quote from: adamwNext ... Being at a catchy place called "The Joe" - is easy to market when there is such a place to market. "The Joe" itself is an attraction. What does the ECAC have to work with? Now we're back to venue discussions.
Destination: Lake Placid!
I think Lake Placid was neglected upthread when Trotsky was brainstorming for places with the potential for "grassroots civic involvement." The actual community interest in the tournament was one of the great things about LP as a venue (reasonable proximity to Clarkson and SLU presumably being a major factor in that). Of course, LP had its own disadvantages that we don't need to rehash again here.
If a "destination" is what they want, maybe they should look at having it in Newark. Unlike MSG, that arena has a decent amount of spare capacity that time of year (and more so in the near future once the Nets move to Brooklyn). Physically, it's a modern (unlke Albany) NHL-sized (unlike Lake Placid) building that was built with hockey in mind (unlike Atlantic City). I haven't been inside the behind-the-scenes facilities, but I have to assume they're high-quality. It's not centrally located like Albany or Hartford, but I think the selection of AC demonstrates that that isn't a primary concern, and it's convenient to a major airport (if that's relevant) and to highways. And for marketing purposes, if East Rutherford is close enough that the NFL can call it "New York" (for the Giants and the Jets, and presumably for the 2014 Super Bowl) then Newark is close enough that the ECAC can do the same. Maybe it's ridiculous, but it's a thought.
Quote from: Josh '99Newark. . . it's convenient to a major airport (if that's relevant) and to highways.
And trains. But it won't happen.
I'm surprised that nobody has really mentioned the Ivy League "factor". We've already seen how the Ivy League rules have made our football and basketball teams nationally uncompetitive. It's something we basically accept (although some of us don't like it).
I think football and basketball basically cratered almost instantly because there were 2-300 schools that were competing for talent. What I believe we're starting to see is that factor starting to come into play in hockey. There are a lot more DI schools now than there were when Hockey East formed. Hell, there are even more Hockey East Schools now than when it formed.
I think those new schools are finally diluting the talent pool to a point where the Ivy League rules are making the whole conference suffer. And I don't see name recognition or school location fixing it. This is a downward spiral that is the result of withdrawing from the national "way things are done." If you want to compete you don't hamstring yorurself.
Maybe the new financial aid rules will help some, but I have my doubts.
Quote from: Josh '99And for marketing purposes, if East Rutherford is close enough that the NFL can call it "New York" (for the Giants and the Jets, and presumably for the 2014 Super Bowl) then Newark is close enough that the ECAC can do the same. Maybe it's ridiculous, but it's a thought.
All this talk of Newark, yet I don't think I've seen anyone mention the Izod Center (nee Brendan Byrne Arena). Both of its pro tenants are long gone, and it was certainly built with ice hockey in mind. (Edit: scoop85 mentioned it after last year's finals)
Yes, the facility has about as much charm as the one out in Uniondale, and is probably slated for demolition or down-scaling, but its proximity to New York should at least bring it into the discussion. Ticketmaster shows 16 events listed between now and August, so it's not like we'd be competing with some big money maker.
Thanks to scoop85, css228, bnr24, Ben, and jtn27 for your thoughtful replies.
I think back to the 2003 & 2005 teams (and even 1996 because it was a big renaissance of the program) and there were stretches where we just didn't feel like Cornell would lose as soon as they stepped on the ice each night. When teams like that put it together and go on a run, there's a feeling around the Faithful (young and old) of "We will follow this team to the end of the earth, I don't care what it takes." It's kind of infectious. I hope it happens again and hits the students.
Quote from: RichHThanks to scoop85, css228, bnr24, Ben, and jtn27 for your thoughtful replies.
I think back to the 2003 & 2005 teams (and even 1996 because it was a big renaissance of the program) and there were stretches where we just didn't feel like Cornell would lose as soon as they stepped on the ice each night. When teams like that put it together and go on a run, there's a feeling around the Faithful (young and old) of "We will follow this team to the end of the earth, I don't care what it takes." It's kind of infectious. I hope it happens again and hits the students.
Sure, the fans said "the end of the earth," but that was before Atlantic City, New Jersey.
So my two cents. Unless you can get Boston, or maybe NYC, to work, forget a "destination" arena. There just aren't any for us. Our problems are small schools without name recognition. I'll bet PSU will not have problems with attendance. You've got 40,000, or some odd (maybe both), students. You're going to have some go to games. HEA works because of the schools in Boston, CCHA works, as Adam says, because UM is next door, WCHA works because it's Minneapolis. Those are all big hockey towns, with big schools nearby. Well maybe not Boston, but a lot of rabid small hockey schools nearby. We will never have that. Look at AHA, it's not really working in Rochester any better than we are.
It will be interesting to see what happens when all the realignment takes place. Where does the Big Ten go, to Detroit? What about the new "super" conf? Do they stay in Minny? Would people go if Minny wasn't there? Could the WCHA use Minneapolis, or would no one fill the place? Some of the natural places may not work out as well for them in another year. HEA will always have Boston, the others?
So we should quit trying to figure out some grand solution, that I don't think will ever happen. Pick a good central place like Albany, or a reasonable hockey town like Providence, and go and be happy. We will never be a grand hockey conference, and we should try and stop kicking ourselves because of it. If we stay two steps ahead of the AHA, we might find ourselves on par with some of the remodeled former big leagues, whatever they will call the old WCHA and CCHA. They may come down to our level.
I'm happy I knew what it was like to consistently compete with the best, but now I'm happy that we can be there sometimes. Just give me a reasonable place to go to the ECACs, and that's not AC.
Quote from: Jim HylaWhere does the Big Ten go, to Detroit? What about the new "super" conf?
B1G Hockey will play its first tournament in Saint Paul, MN at the Xcel Energy Center. The B1G is looking for a rotation (sound familiar?) of venues to be fair to its geographically disparate teams. The envisioned rotation includes Saint Paul and Detroit. However, the Xcel Energy Center is the only confirmed venue so far.
Quote from: Jeff Hopkins '82I'm surprised that nobody has really mentioned the Ivy League "factor". We've already seen how the Ivy League rules have made our football and basketball teams nationally uncompetitive. It's something we basically accept (although some of us don't like it).
I think football and basketball basically cratered almost instantly because there were 2-300 schools that were competing for talent. What I believe we're starting to see is that factor starting to come into play in hockey. There are a lot more DI schools now than there were when Hockey East formed. Hell, there are even more Hockey East Schools now than when it formed.
I think those new schools are finally diluting the talent pool to a point where the Ivy League rules are making the whole conference suffer. And I don't see name recognition or school location fixing it. This is a downward spiral that is the result of withdrawing from the national "way things are done." If you want to compete you don't hamstring yorurself.
Maybe the new financial aid rules will help some, but I have my doubts.
The financial aid rules definitely help. I know from my time with CUTF/XC that if you recruit at a certain economic income level, you effectively get full and partial scholarships without any real limit. That brings in a lot of talent we used to be unable to get, and as a result the quality of Ivy Track and Field has dramatically risen the last 10 years or so. I also remember seeing an article on wrestling that insinuated the the same thing. The games limit really hurts our hockey team though. It creates no margin of error in terms of getting into NCAAs and it limits the amount of times our team can really seek out top notch competition in order to be ready for it come March. I have no doubt a program with Cornell's reputation could get more big games if it didn't have to schedule its NC schedule when many programs are starting to get into conference play.
Quote from: RichHThanks to scoop85, css228, bnr24, Ben, and jtn27 for your thoughtful replies.
I think back to the 2003 & 2005 teams (and even 1996 because it was a big renaissance of the program) and there were stretches where we just didn't feel like Cornell would lose as soon as they stepped on the ice each night. When teams like that put it together and go on a run, there's a feeling around the Faithful (young and old) of "We will follow this team to the end of the earth, I don't care what it takes." It's kind of infectious. I hope it happens again and hits the students.
It absolutely could, but theres definitely a feeling I get that athletics lets the program try to sell itself a little too much. I just missed out on the last days of the line, but from what I hear, things like trying to score on Scrivens, or Schafer delivering food to students who camped out made getting hockey tickets the thing to do, even more so that it currently is. One of my good friends is the Blue Devil at Duke, but even he camped out for Carolina tickets (despite the obvious fact he didn't need to) because that's just what you do at Duke. As much as I shudder to think about the Faithful like their inferior comparison at Duke, I think that the administration goes out of their way to cultivate that sense of belonging in the fan base. We used to do that very well, and we are still pretty good at it. But if you want people to travel with the team, you have to make the program more accessible (i.e. make tickets cheaper) and go out of your way to build a buzz around the program (i.e. bring back the line). Those two little things, along with moving back to 7:30 starts (did you see the pre-game attendance against Dartmouth?) would go a long way in re-energizing the fan base,
Duke basketball isn't selling out home games. The Cameron Crazies are bemoaning how it's not like old times. Duke wins the NCAA championship and attendance falls.
http://dukechronicle.com/article/low-attendance-forces-duke-athletics-sell-student-seats
Quote from: Duke ChronicleOnce regularly an asylum for 1,200 Crazies, Section 17 at Cameron Indoor Stadium now rarely plays host to a student-only crowd. Student attendance at men's basketball games has fallen consistently over the last five years, even dropping after Duke won its fourth national championship in 2010. This season, approximately 650 undergraduates have attended each game, 150 fewer than during the 2008-09 season. As a result, Duke Athletics has begun to sell an increasing number of general admission tickets in the student section on a regular basis.
[Almost as cold as waiting outside Lynah? -ed] "It does take a lot to go to K-Ville and wait outside, sometimes in the cold and in the rain, and then go into Cameron where you have to stand and jump up and down," co-head line monitor Ellie Garrett said. "Students need to realize that going to Cameron is... an awesome experience."
This lack of undergraduate interest has led Duke Athletics to sell about 300 tickets per game this season, priced at $65. ...
When the Blue Devils played Wake Forest last week, 400 tickets were made available to Iron Dukes because of concerns over the game's competition with fraternity and sorority rush ... Still, Section 17 was still under capacity at tip-off, leading head coach Mike Krzyzewski to gesticulate across the court during play, encouraging the fans to get louder. ...
[Give Duke credit for this] "Every other school in the country is playing canned music during timeouts, doing cheesy promotions," Forman said. "We try to stay away from that."
Quote from: Jim HylaSo we should quit trying to figure out some grand solution, that I don't think will ever happen. Pick a good central place like Albany, or a reasonable hockey town like Providence, and go and be happy. We will never be a grand hockey conference, and we should try and stop kicking ourselves because of it. If we stay two steps ahead of the AHA, we might find ourselves on par with some of the remodeled former big leagues, whatever they will call the old WCHA and CCHA. They may come down to our level.
I'm happy I knew what it was like to consistently compete with the best, but now I'm happy that we can be there sometimes. Just give me a reasonable place to go to the ECACs, and that's not AC.
I know it's not a central location, per se ... but this was my main argument in favor of Lake Placid, and I wrote about it a lot when they moved to Albany. And JTW alluded to this as well, that Lake Placid may be the only actual "destination" that has any marketability.
If you're not going to be the best, and you're not going to compete in a major city - then why not take advantage of the one unique thing you do have at your disposal? Lake Placid gave the ECAC an identity that was unique and has a very favorable emotional component to any hockey fan. The people in Lake Placid made it an "Event." It's a special place.
AC is 1 hr. 20 minutes from my house - and LP is 6 hrs. on a good day (i.e. not snowing) ... yet I'd still be very in favor of Lake Placid any day of the week over anywhere else.
Alas, it will never happen so long as there are coaches in the league who don't want to play on the big ice surface. I understand their concern with it, but they are also the ones to complain about the league's marketability issues.
Quote from: css228Quote from: MattSQuote from: kingpin248Another point to remember: the AHA does not hold a consolation game, so I'd bet that most of the 2,443 in Rochester were actually inside the BCA for the final.
Another thing that hurt the AHA attendance was that the RIT women were playing for the NCAA DIII Championship at the exact same time at RIT as the AF - RIT game at the BCA. So I know that pulled from the attendance the AHA game.
Not to mention that Air Force, being halfway across the country, wasn't likely to have much of a showing there.
I went to the game because my sister's nephew plays for AF. It was decidedly a RIT crowd...surprise, surprise, but the AF folks held their own, especially after they went up 2-0.
Now, here's something amazing: An AF Academy alum (who lives in Rochester) comps everyone who signs up in advance for a ticket. The guest list was pretty impressive!
Several of us were discussing the venue issue while in AC this past weekend.
The closest the ECAC has ever come to having a real "event" location was the old Boston Garden. It was a wonderful venue that was filled for nearly every ECAC championship I ever attended as a CU fan. Also, Boston is a great hockey town, a nice city to visit, not too expensive for current students and young alumns and has a reasonable contingent of alumni who will turn out for their teams. There were fabulous games there in the 60s, 70s and a bit beyond. Alas the old Boston Garden is a memory. I don't think that the "new" Garden would work as well, but might be worth a try.
The second closest to an "event" location was Lake Placid. For those of us who experienced Cornell-Clarkson in 1970 in the old rink for the NCAA championship and/or the USA gold medal run in 1980, this is a special place. The town is still quaint, fun, and not too expensive. Yes, it's a drive for most, but not truly terrible. However, the biggest problem with it is the Olympic ice sheet. I believe that if it was 200x85, the ECAC could seriously consider it.
As several have mentioned, there are plenty of rinks with 7000+ seating capacity or more within the ECAC. Frankly, for the most part, it doesn't matter where the ECAC plays within the general confines of the center of the ECAC. Atlantic City just isn't the solution. It's not a hockey town. It's generally too expensive for students and too far away for just about everyone! The bottom line, there is no draw to the place.
IMO, the ECAC needs to find a decent rink (as I and others have mentioned, there are several), market the heck out of it, put some packages together for participating schools (including transportation, several hotels at different price points, tickets, etc) and have a decent TV package for those who can't/won't make the trip. Stick with it for a few years, tweak the packages each year, and build it into something that fans will look forward to. AC is obviously not "it". Albany could be, but it too needs better packaging to be successful. Both Bridgeport at Worcester are also possibilities. Both cities are closer to most ECAC teams than AC. Each has some college hockey connections, aren't too expense, and can generally be driven to.
My $.02
You might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. (https://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2012/mar/19/college-hockey-slap-schotts-2011-12-week-23-atlant/) A few quotes:
QuoteThere were 4,131 fans there? Really?
Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.
The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?
There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.
If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.
Quote from: billhowardDuke basketball isn't selling out home games. The Cameron Crazies are bemoaning how it's not like old times. Duke wins the NCAA championship and attendance falls.
http://dukechronicle.com/article/low-attendance-forces-duke-athletics-sell-student-seats
Quote from: Duke ChronicleOnce regularly an asylum for 1,200 Crazies, Section 17 at Cameron Indoor Stadium now rarely plays host to a student-only crowd. Student attendance at men's basketball games has fallen consistently over the last five years, even dropping after Duke won its fourth national championship in 2010. This season, approximately 650 undergraduates have attended each game, 150 fewer than during the 2008-09 season. As a result, Duke Athletics has begun to sell an increasing number of general admission tickets in the student section on a regular basis.
[Almost as cold as waiting outside Lynah? -ed] "It does take a lot to go to K-Ville and wait outside, sometimes in the cold and in the rain, and then go into Cameron where you have to stand and jump up and down," co-head line monitor Ellie Garrett said. "Students need to realize that going to Cameron is... an awesome experience."
This lack of undergraduate interest has led Duke Athletics to sell about 300 tickets per game this season, priced at $65. ...
When the Blue Devils played Wake Forest last week, 400 tickets were made available to Iron Dukes because of concerns over the game's competition with fraternity and sorority rush ... Still, Section 17 was still under capacity at tip-off, leading head coach Mike Krzyzewski to gesticulate across the court during play, encouraging the fans to get louder. ...
[Give Duke credit for this] "Every other school in the country is playing canned music during timeouts, doing cheesy promotions," Forman said. "We try to stay away from that."
That is definitely true. I don't think you need to do cheesy promotions, but how would bringing back a beloved tradition hurt?
Quote from: Jim HylaYou might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. (https://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2012/mar/19/college-hockey-slap-schotts-2011-12-week-23-atlant/) A few quotes:QuoteThere were 4,131 fans there? Really?
Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.
The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?
There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.
If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.
I guess the very loud (louder than the Lynah Faithful Zajac insisted) "Messa faithful" did not show up. Also, a Union "fan" behind bnr24 and me on Saturday said that the "Cornell fans were obnoxious and made the entire [consolation] game disgusting." I am sure he enjoyed when she and I joined in with a group of other Faithful at the ECAC Championship game chanting "sieve" at both Grosenick and Girard among various other chants.
Quote from: adamwI know it's not a central location, per se ... but this was my main argument in favor of Lake Placid, and I wrote about it a lot when they moved to Albany. And JTW alluded to this as well, that Lake Placid may be the only actual "destination" that has any marketability.
If you're not going to be the best, and you're not going to compete in a major city - then why not take advantage of the one unique thing you do have at your disposal? Lake Placid gave the ECAC an identity that was unique and has a very favorable emotional component to any hockey fan. The people in Lake Placid made it an "Event." It's a special place.
AC is 1 hr. 20 minutes from my house - and LP is 6 hrs. on a good day (i.e. not snowing) ... yet I'd still be very in favor of Lake Placid any day of the week over anywhere else.
Alas, it will never happen so long as there are coaches in the league who don't want to play on the big ice surface. I understand their concern with it, but they are also the ones to complain about the league's marketability issues.
Today's Cornell teams are far better suited to play on the big sheet than the ECAC Championship teams of 1996 and 1997.
Quote from: Larry72Several of us were discussing the venue issue while in AC this past weekend.
The closest the ECAC has ever come to having a real "event" location was the old Boston Garden. It was a wonderful venue that was filled for nearly every ECAC championship I ever attended as a CU fan. Also, Boston is a great hockey town, a nice city to visit, not too expensive for current students and young alumns and has a reasonable contingent of alumni who will turn out for their teams. There were fabulous games there in the 60s, 70s and a bit beyond. Alas the old Boston Garden is a memory. I don't think that the "new" Garden would work as well, but might be worth a try.
The second closest to an "event" location was Lake Placid. For those of us who experienced Cornell-Clarkson in 1970 in the old rink for the NCAA championship and/or the USA gold medal run in 1980, this is a special place. The town is still quaint, fun, and not too expensive. Yes, it's a drive for most, but not truly terrible. However, the biggest problem with it is the Olympic ice sheet. I believe that if it was 200x85, the ECAC could seriously consider it.
As several have mentioned, there are plenty of rinks with 7000+ seating capacity or more within the ECAC. Frankly, for the most part, it doesn't matter where the ECAC plays within the general confines of the center of the ECAC. Atlantic City just isn't the solution. It's not a hockey town. It's generally too expensive for students and too far away for just about everyone! The bottom line, there is no draw to the place.
IMO, the ECAC needs to find a decent rink (as I and others have mentioned, there are several), market the heck out of it, put some packages together for participating schools (including transportation, several hotels at different price points, tickets, etc) and have a decent TV package for those who can't/won't make the trip. Stick with it for a few years, tweak the packages each year, and build it into something that fans will look forward to. AC is obviously not "it". Albany could be, but it too needs better packaging to be successful. Both Bridgeport at Worcester are also possibilities. Both cities are closer to most ECAC teams than AC. Each has some college hockey connections, aren't too expense, and can generally be driven to.
My $.02
If the regionals in Bridgeport draw well this year, we have an answer for an ECAC venue. Last year there was Yale as a high home seed. The NCAA expects a better draw than Albany, and with Union and Mass-Lowell as the eastern teams we will see just how well they Bridgeport draws hockey fans without a local connection.
Quote from: adamwThe only way to market sports is to win ... That's 95% of it. ... I've worked in sports my whole life, and no amount of marketing tricks will do the job otherwise. I've worked for some pro GMs who like to think otherwise, and they've always turned out to be wrong.
There are a few exceptions, but even attendance at Chicago Cubs games falls off a little bit after especially dismal seasons.
Quote from: css228The games limit really hurts our hockey team though. It creates no margin of error in terms of getting into NCAAs and it limits the amount of times our team can really seek out top notch competition in order to be ready for it come March. I have no doubt a program with Cornell's reputation could get more big games if it didn't have to schedule its NC schedule when many programs are starting to get into conference play.
The late start also sets us back relative to the opposition, so we have a handicap against any non-Ivy we meet before New Year's that can amount to a 50% or more longer schedule.
Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: Jim HylaYou might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. (https://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2012/mar/19/college-hockey-slap-schotts-2011-12-week-23-atlant/) A few quotes:QuoteThere were 4,131 fans there? Really?
Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.
The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?
There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.
If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.
I guess the very loud (louder than the Lynah Faithful Zajac insisted) "Messa faithful" did not show up. Also, a Union "fan" behind bnr24 and me on Saturday said that the "Cornell fans were obnoxious and made the entire [consolation] game disgusting." I am sure he enjoyed when she and I joined in with a group of other Faithful at the ECAC Championship game chanting "sieve" at both Grosenick and Girard among various other chants.
Yeah, we were told by rink security to stop,,, But it was fun until I decided it probably wasn't worth it to get myself into a situation that would have required staying in Atlantic City any longer.
Quote from: css228Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: Jim HylaYou might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. (https://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2012/mar/19/college-hockey-slap-schotts-2011-12-week-23-atlant/) A few quotes:QuoteThere were 4,131 fans there? Really?
Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.
The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?
There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.
If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.
I guess the very loud (louder than the Lynah Faithful Zajac insisted) "Messa faithful" did not show up. Also, a Union "fan" behind bnr24 and me on Saturday said that the "Cornell fans were obnoxious and made the entire [consolation] game disgusting." I am sure he enjoyed when she and I joined in with a group of other Faithful at the ECAC Championship game chanting "sieve" at both Grosenick and Girard among various other chants.
Yeah, we were told by rink security to stop,,, But it was fun until I decided it probably wasn't worth it to get myself into a situation that would have required staying in Atlantic City any longer.
You were one of the ones starting it? It was fun. We stayed only through the first period but then left because we had to get back to Philadelphia. Also, staying longer in Jersey than one has to would be rough.
Quote from: releck97I went to the game because my sister's nephew plays for AF. It was decidedly a RIT crowd...surprise, surprise, but the AF folks held their own, especially after they went up 2-0.
Well, sure, if anybody can move about the country, it'd be Air Force people. Cadets without the money to travel could sign up for drones that circled the arena. Thank goodness AF didn't lose.
Quote from: releck97Now, here's something amazing: An AF Academy alum (who lives in Rochester) comps everyone who signs up in advance for a ticket. The guest list was pretty impressive!
I was about to say, "Your defense dollars at work," but actually, that's a very nice touch. I'm still grateful to a Cornell alum who paid my way to a Cornell Club dinner when I was feeling broke a couple years out of school. If you're an undergrad now and somebody bought you a round in Atlantic City, return the favor in 20 years.
Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: css228Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: Jim HylaYou might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. (https://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2012/mar/19/college-hockey-slap-schotts-2011-12-week-23-atlant/) A few quotes:QuoteThere were 4,131 fans there? Really?
Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.
The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?
There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.
If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.
I guess the very loud (louder than the Lynah Faithful Zajac insisted) "Messa faithful" did not show up. Also, a Union "fan" behind bnr24 and me on Saturday said that the "Cornell fans were obnoxious and made the entire [consolation] game disgusting." I am sure he enjoyed when she and I joined in with a group of other Faithful at the ECAC Championship game chanting "sieve" at both Grosenick and Girard among various other chants.
Yeah, we were told by rink security to stop,,, But it was fun until I decided it probably wasn't worth it to get myself into a situation that would have required staying in Atlantic City any longer.
You were one of the ones starting it? It was fun. We stayed only through the first period but then left because we had to get back to Philadelphia. Also, staying longer in Jersey than one has to would be rough.
Yep, I figured I needed to get back to Philly too. On a related note, consolation highlights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ho1WuyRTOk). I'm under the distinct impression that no other video of the tournament exists.
Quote from: css228Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: css228Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: Jim HylaYou might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. (https://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2012/mar/19/college-hockey-slap-schotts-2011-12-week-23-atlant/) A few quotes:QuoteThere were 4,131 fans there? Really?
Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.
The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?
There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.
If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.
I guess the very loud (louder than the Lynah Faithful Zajac insisted) "Messa faithful" did not show up. Also, a Union "fan" behind bnr24 and me on Saturday said that the "Cornell fans were obnoxious and made the entire [consolation] game disgusting." I am sure he enjoyed when she and I joined in with a group of other Faithful at the ECAC Championship game chanting "sieve" at both Grosenick and Girard among various other chants.
Yeah, we were told by rink security to stop,,, But it was fun until I decided it probably wasn't worth it to get myself into a situation that would have required staying in Atlantic City any longer.
You were one of the ones starting it? It was fun. We stayed only through the first period but then left because we had to get back to Philadelphia. Also, staying longer in Jersey than one has to would be rough.
Yep, I figured I needed to get back to Philly too. On a related note, consolation highlights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ho1WuyRTOk). I'm under the distinct impression that no other video of the tournament exists.
I am not sure if that is wishful thinking hoping to forget the horrific Friday loss, but all the games are available for free at RPI TV. The games are in their entirety. Here is the less painful Colgate-Cornell game in its entirety. (http://www.rpitv.org/productions/451-ecac-consolation-colgate-vs-cornell)
Quote from: css228Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: Jim HylaYou might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. (https://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2012/mar/19/college-hockey-slap-schotts-2011-12-week-23-atlant/) A few quotes:QuoteThere were 4,131 fans there? Really?
Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.
The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?
There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.
If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.
I guess the very loud (louder than the Lynah Faithful Zajac insisted) "Messa faithful" did not show up. Also, a Union "fan" behind bnr24 and me on Saturday said that the "Cornell fans were obnoxious and made the entire [consolation] game disgusting." I am sure he enjoyed when she and I joined in with a group of other Faithful at the ECAC Championship game chanting "sieve" at both Grosenick and Girard among various other chants.
Yeah, we were told by rink security to stop,,, But it was fun until I decided it probably wasn't worth it to get myself into a situation that would have required staying in Atlantic City any longer.
They actually told you to stop yelling sieve?
Quote from: Jim HylaQuote from: css228Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: Jim HylaYou might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. (https://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2012/mar/19/college-hockey-slap-schotts-2011-12-week-23-atlant/) A few quotes:QuoteThere were 4,131 fans there? Really?
Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.
The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?
There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.
If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.
I guess the very loud (louder than the Lynah Faithful Zajac insisted) "Messa faithful" did not show up. Also, a Union "fan" behind bnr24 and me on Saturday said that the "Cornell fans were obnoxious and made the entire [consolation] game disgusting." I am sure he enjoyed when she and I joined in with a group of other Faithful at the ECAC Championship game chanting "sieve" at both Grosenick and Girard among various other chants.
Yeah, we were told by rink security to stop,,, But it was fun until I decided it probably wasn't worth it to get myself into a situation that would have required staying in Atlantic City any longer.
They actually told you to stop yelling sieve
Among other things, but yes. I think at the time we were told to stop I was getting on Girard for being impressed how he gets his mask down with no hands. Definitely wasn't anything profane. Just kind of taking advantage of the complete and utter silence of the game. Even got in a Let's Go Red cheer. I think the problem was more that we were near rink cameras with mics that were definitely picking up every word we were saying. Either way, they were far less appreciative of our addition to the hockey atmosphere than were the other Faithful.
Quote from: css228consolation highlights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ho1WuyRTOk)
Oh wow. First time I'm seeing RPItv. It's beeeyoooooooootiful.
Quote from: ugarteQuote from: css228consolation highlights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ho1WuyRTOk)
Oh wow. First time I'm seeing RPItv. It's beeeyoooooooootiful.
Indeed. Makes RedCast even more obviously an embarrassment.
Quote from: css228moving back to 7:30 starts (did you see the pre-game attendance against Dartmouth?) would go a long way in re-energizing the fan base.
I don't think moving the games back to 7:30 would do anything to improve attendance. Students who are late to 7:00 games would be late to 7:30 games. The only reason the Dartmouth game filled up before the game started is that most people didn't know about the delay and thought they were arriving 5 minutes late instead of 30 minutes early. Remember, when we told a group of girls who were headed to the game while we getting dinner between the two games that the men's game was delayed, they turned around and went back to their apartment for another half hour. Plus, a later start means there's a higher risk of students leaving early to go to parties.
Quote from: css228Quote from: Jim HylaQuote from: css228Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: Jim HylaYou might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. (https://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2012/mar/19/college-hockey-slap-schotts-2011-12-week-23-atlant/) A few quotes:QuoteThere were 4,131 fans there? Really?
Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.
The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?
There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.
If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.
I guess the very loud (louder than the Lynah Faithful Zajac insisted) "Messa faithful" did not show up. Also, a Union "fan" behind bnr24 and me on Saturday said that the "Cornell fans were obnoxious and made the entire [consolation] game disgusting." I am sure he enjoyed when she and I joined in with a group of other Faithful at the ECAC Championship game chanting "sieve" at both Grosenick and Girard among various other chants.
Yeah, we were told by rink security to stop,,, But it was fun until I decided it probably wasn't worth it to get myself into a situation that would have required staying in Atlantic City any longer.
They actually told you to stop yelling sieve
Among other things, but yes. I think at the time we were told to stop I was getting on Girard for being impressed how he gets his mask down with no hands. Definitely wasn't anything profane. Just kind of taking advantage of the complete and utter silence of the game. Even got in a Let's Go Red cheer. I think the problem was more that we were near rink cameras with mics that were definitely picking up every word we were saying. Either way, they were far less appreciative of our addition to the hockey atmosphere than were the other Faithful.
They told us to "settle down." I think the problem was we were too close to the camera (we were in the 2nd or 3rd row). Although the microphone guy's suggestion that I "stop sucking on helium" suggests that if my voice was lower they wouldn't have had a problem with it.
Quote from: jtn27They told us to "settle down." I think the problem was we were too close to the camera (we were in the 2nd or 3rd row). Although the microphone guy's suggestion that I "stop sucking on helium" suggests that if my voice was lower they wouldn't have had a problem with it.
"Settle down" is a polite way of asking you to stop.
Quote from: css228Quote from: jtn27They told us to "settle down." I think the problem was we were too close to the camera (we were in the 2nd or 3rd row). Although the microphone guy's suggestion that I "stop sucking on helium" suggests that if my voice was lower they wouldn't have had a problem with it.
"Settle down" is a polite way of asking you to stop.
I am aware of that. I just figured I'd put the exact quote.
Quote from: Jim HylaYou might want to read Ken Schott's post-mortem on AC. (https://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2012/mar/19/college-hockey-slap-schotts-2011-12-week-23-atlant/) A few quotes:QuoteThere were 4,131 fans there? Really?
Move the tournament
This was my first experience covering the tournament in Atlantic City. And, honestly, I didn't like it.
The games were poorly attended. There were allegedly 3,462 fans in Boardwalk Hall for Friday's two games, and 4,131 fans for Saturday's contests. Were those numbers chosen from the New Jersey Pick-4 Lottery?
There was no atmosphere in the building. At one point during the championship game, it was so quiet that I thought I was in a library and not a hockey game.
If there is a way the league can buy out the final year of its deal with Atlantic City, do it. It would save the ECACH another possible embarrassment next year.
Few buildings one-third full have much atmosphere. A journalist from the Albany area has a parochial interest in seeing the tournament held in his readership area. That said, and ignoring that a blog written on not enough sleep and with the spellchecker disabled is one step removed from "first draft of history," Ken Schott is right on target. The tournament needs to move.
Ken is definitely biased about it, but it should be in AC anymore, that much is true. ... Bridgeport to me is a very good idea. It's a nice new arena. Absolutely nothing to do there - but at this point, whatever. Just put it in a nice building, and hope for the best. At least it's new, accessible, and a nice place to watch a game.
This is, of course, assuming they won't send it back to Lake Placid.
Re: Boston - said it before every time it comes up, will say it again ... this is not 1970 or even 1985 ... The Boston-area teams being in the ECAC tournament were a huge factor. They don't exist anymore except Harvard, and Harvard doesn't even draw for the Beanpot anymore. Also, the ECAC tournament was huge then - it had major importance, much more than today, in the grand scheme of things. Those days are gone - forget Boston.
Adam, I'll never forget Boston.:-} Too many memories, see my signature. And yes, I get your point, we'll never go there again unless we get a sugar daddy. Never having been to a game in Bridgeport, what does it have that Albany doesn't?
Quote from: Kyle RoseI know lots of people with no Hockey East association who go to the HE tournament......
Each year that the ECACHL continues to mismanage their championship tournament, I get closer to being one of those people. Watching the HE tournament on TV reminded me of the fun tournaments that our league used to hold in Boston. Let there be no mistake, even on TV, it was clear that the TD Garden was an exciting place to be. A half-empty Boardwalk Hall (or whatever they call it)?? Not so much......
Quote from: Jim HylaNever having been to a game in Bridgeport, what does it have that Albany doesn't?
A Metro-North stop.
Quote from: adamwRe: Boston - said it before every time it comes up, will say it again ... this is not 1970 or even 1985 ... The Boston-area teams being in the ECAC tournament were a huge factor. They don't exist anymore except Harvard, and Harvard doesn't even draw for the Beanpot anymore. Also, the ECAC tournament was huge then - it had major importance, much more than today, in the grand scheme of things. Those days are gone - forget Boston.
FYP.
Re: Bridgeport
I'd love to tell you that Bridgeport has all sorts of wonderful things, but mostly it doesn't. The arena is 10 minutes walking distance to the University of Bridgeport campus and the end of mile-long Seaside Park. Not that the park is a big draw in March.
There's not a lot to do on a Saturday in Bridgeport, but you can find a good sports bar pretty easily and it's only about a half hour up to Yale if you want to see the sights. NYC is an easy, cheap train ride on Metro North, so that's a very reasonable way to kill your Saturday daylight hours waiting to watch CU in the championship game.
Quote from: css228Among other things, but yes. I think at the time we were told to stop I was getting on Girard for being impressed how he gets his mask down with no hands. Definitely wasn't anything profane. Just kind of taking advantage of the complete and utter silence of the game. Even got in a Let's Go Red cheer. I think the problem was more that we were near rink cameras with mics that were definitely picking up every word we were saying. Either way, they were far less appreciative of our addition to the hockey atmosphere than were the other Faithful.
Were you at the bottom of 107? There were a handful of students who gamely tried to start up Cornell cheers during the start of the final and who relocated shortly afterwards. I thought they might have had a warm AC welcome from rink security.
Generally speaking, I think the Boardwalk crew did the best with what they had. Security were not overtly dickish and the turnstile and concessions people were professional. It certainly came across as a building used to holding events. From talking to random locals at the counters I got the impression they were thinking, "where is everybody?"
There were almost no "carnival" activities (I think I saw a foam puck shoot for the little ones). The head trauma iPhone app presentation was cool, and the girl at the booth was Manic Pixie Nerd Girl cute.
Quote from: adamwHarvard doesn't even draw for the Beanpot anymore.
Consolation games don't draw well.
Quote from: TrotskyWere you at the bottom of 107? There were a handful of students who gamely tried to start up Cornell cheers during the start of the final and who relocated shortly afterwards. I thought they might have had a warm AC welcome from rink security.
That was us. I'm not sure how long css stayed, but I left after about 10-15 minutes to go get dinner (even though we got told off by security, I never felt that we were in danger of being kicked out and me leaving had nothing to do with that).
Quote from: TrotskyGenerally speaking, I think the Boardwalk crew did the best with what they had. Security were not overtly dickish and the turnstile and concessions people were professional.
We arrived with two strollers and asked one of the ushers if there was a place we could store them. She pointed to the wheelchair-accessible seats between 107 and 207 and said that our whole party could sit there as long as the seats weren't being used.
Oh, and to address two questions I had earlier, both kids were admitted without a ticket (security was more concerned with the outside food than the age of my son), and as most of you know, they were stamping hands for exit and re-entry between games.
Quote from: Greenberg '97Quote from: TrotskyGenerally speaking, I think the Boardwalk crew did the best with what they had. Security were not overtly dickish and the turnstile and concessions people were professional.
We arrived with two strollers and asked one of the ushers if there was a place we could store them. She pointed to the wheelchair-accessible seats between 107 and 207 and said that our whole party could sit there as long as the seats weren't being used.
Oh, and to address two questions I had earlier, both kids were admitted without a ticket (security was more concerned with the outside food than the age of my son), and as most of you know, they were stamping hands for exit and re-entry between games.
Hopefully this information as to the building policies will be of use to those who are wishing that the Miss America pageant returns there and of no use to those wishing to watch ECAC hockey.
Quote from: Jim HylaAdam, I'll never forget Boston.:-} Too many memories, see my signature. And yes, I get your point, we'll never go there again unless we get a sugar daddy. Never having been to a game in Bridgeport, what does it have that Albany doesn't?
We will find out this weekend what is has if it outdraws Albany 2010.
Regional semifinals
March 26, 2010
3:00 PM (4) RIT 2 – 1
(1–0, 0–0, 1–1) (1) Denver Times Union Center, Albany, NY
[show]Game reference
March 26, 2010
6:30 PM (3) New Hampshire 6 – 2
(0–1, 2–0, 4–1) (2) Cornell Times Union Center, Albany, NY
Attendance: 4,073
[show]Game reference
[edit]Regional final
March 27, 2010
6:30 PM (4) RIT 6 – 2
(1–1, 3–0, 2–1) (3) New Hampshire Times Union Center, Albany, NY
Attendance: 3,737
Quote from: martyQuote from: Jim HylaAdam, I'll never forget Boston.:-} Too many memories, see my signature. And yes, I get your point, we'll never go there again unless we get a sugar daddy. Never having been to a game in Bridgeport, what does it have that Albany doesn't?
We will find out this weekend what is has if it outdraws Albany 2010.
Regional semifinals
March 26, 2010
3:00 PM (4) RIT 2 – 1
(1–0, 0–0, 1–1) (1) Denver Times Union Center, Albany, NY
[show]Game reference
March 26, 2010
6:30 PM (3) New Hampshire 6 – 2
(0–1, 2–0, 4–1) (2) Cornell Times Union Center, Albany, NY
Attendance: 4,073
[show]Game reference
[edit]Regional final
March 27, 2010
6:30 PM (4) RIT 6 – 2
(1–1, 3–0, 2–1) (3) New Hampshire Times Union Center, Albany, NY
Attendance: 3,737
I would be shocked if it outperformed even the 2010 NCAA East Regional in Albany. I know that many of the Faithful did not travel because of the Sweet 16 game in Syracuse the night before, but I would still be shocked if the current bracket in Bridgeport is the draw that Cornell, UNH, and RIT were in 2010. Who travels well in the East Regional this year? Michigan State and Miami are too far regionally for any appreciable amount of fans to travel. Union and UMass-Lowell have fanbases that are not known for their ability to travel well, even though they might be known for many other things.
Well, Bridgeport has had regionals in 2009 and 2011 as well ...
2011
Yale-AFA and Union-UMD ... Attendance: 7671
Yale-UMD ... Attendance: 7816
2009
Vermont-Yale and Michigan-Air Force ... Attendance: 8478 (Sellout)
Vermont-Air Force ... Attendance: 8478 (Sellout)
Of course, this doesn't mean much - because the draw is everything ... but there you go.
Albany has, of course, much more things to do in town (especially if you're a fan of Jersey Shore - the show, not the current ECAC Tournament venue) ... but Bridgeport is just a much nicer, newer arena - and with only 8500 seats - you don't have to put black draping on the upper level.
I think Bridgeport is worth a try: it's roughly two hours further from Potsdam and Ithaca than Albany, which is unfortunate, but still a hell of a lot closer and cheaper than AC. Just make it one year at first instead of three in case it doesn't work out.
Quote from: Larry72The second closest to an "event" location was Lake Placid. For those of us who experienced Cornell-Clarkson in 1970 in the old rink for the NCAA championship and/or the USA gold medal run in 1980, this is a special place. The town is still quaint, fun, and not too expensive. Yes, it's a drive for most, but not truly terrible. However, the biggest problem with it is the Olympic ice sheet. I believe that if it was 200x85, the ECAC could seriously consider it.
If I recall correctly (others can chime in here), one of the main criticisms about Placid was that hotels there were too expensive, and, more precisely, had draconian policies about minimum stays and cancellations that made it hard for people to plan to attend or not based on the results of the QFs. It's also a drive that can be dangerous if the weather is uncooperative; I know three people who had fairly serious car accidents traveling to the 1997 tournament, for example.
Quote from: Kyle RoseI think Bridgeport is worth a try: it's roughly two hours further from Potsdam and Ithaca than Albany, which is unfortunate, but still a hell of a lot closer and cheaper than AC. Just make it one year at first instead of three in case it doesn't work out.
In a rare agreement with Kyle, I would love to see the tournament move to Bridgeport. Webster Bank Arena is not scheduled to host a Division I basketball subregional in 2012 (though last year a Sound Tigers game, and by extension, our adult-league game, was bumped so Fairfield could host an NIT game).
The playing surface is exceptional, and the arena gets loud, even when at 3/4 capacity for a regular season AHL game. The Faithful could do some serious damage.
And the place is less than an hour from my house, which is something the league should take into consideration.
I'd take Bridgeport in a heartbeat!
Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: Jim HylaWhere does the Big Ten go, to Detroit? What about the new "super" conf?
B1G Hockey will play its first tournament in Saint Paul, MN at the Xcel Energy Center. The B1G is looking for a rotation (sound familiar?) of venues to be fair to its geographically disparate teams. The envisioned rotation includes Saint Paul and Detroit. However, the Xcel Energy Center is the only confirmed venue so far.
What dicks. By going with a rotation, they prevent the WCHA and the NCHA from using either of the two best choices for their tournaments. I guess maybe the NCHA will go to Denver?
(My apologies if these issues have already been settled and I'm not aware of it.)
Quote from: Jordan 04I'd take Bridgeport in a heartbeat!
I believe this is what's called a grassroots movement. The ECAC should listen to its best-travelling fan base.
Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: Jim HylaWhere does the Big Ten go, to Detroit? What about the new "super" conf?
B1G Hockey will play its first tournament in Saint Paul, MN at the Xcel Energy Center. The B1G is looking for a rotation (sound familiar?) of venues to be fair to its geographically disparate teams. The envisioned rotation includes Saint Paul and Detroit. However, the Xcel Energy Center is the only confirmed venue so far.
What dicks. By going with a rotation, they prevent the WCHA and the NCHA from using either of the two best choices for their tournaments. I guess maybe the NCHA will go to Denver?
(My apologies if these issues have already been settled and I'm not aware of it.)
I think all these conferences know how to rotate.**]
Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: Larry72The second closest to an "event" location was Lake Placid. For those of us who experienced Cornell-Clarkson in 1970 in the old rink for the NCAA championship and/or the USA gold medal run in 1980, this is a special place. The town is still quaint, fun, and not too expensive. Yes, it's a drive for most, but not truly terrible. However, the biggest problem with it is the Olympic ice sheet. I believe that if it was 200x85, the ECAC could seriously consider it.
If I recall correctly (others can chime in here), one of the main criticisms about Placid was that hotels there were too expensive, and, more precisely, had draconian policies about minimum stays and cancellations that made it hard for people to plan to attend or not based on the results of the QFs. It's also a drive that can be dangerous if the weather is uncooperative; I know three people who had fairly serious car accidents traveling to the 1997 tournament, for example.
Yes, the price and the cancellation policy made it difficult for people who weren't going to make a weekend of it.
I also remember the first year I went up to LP, I hit a deer on the way up and I learned that it's something of a rite of passage or something to hit that deer since it's happened to many others on the way up.
Quote from: Greenberg '97Quote from: Kyle RoseI think Bridgeport is worth a try: it's roughly two hours further from Potsdam and Ithaca than Albany, which is unfortunate, but still a hell of a lot closer and cheaper than AC. Just make it one year at first instead of three in case it doesn't work out.
In a rare agreement with Kyle, I would love to see the tournament move to Bridgeport. Webster Bank Arena is not scheduled to host a Division I basketball subregional in 2012 (though last year a Sound Tigers game, and by extension, our adult-league game, was bumped so Fairfield could host an NIT game).
The playing surface is exceptional, and the arena gets loud, even when at 3/4 capacity for a regular season AHL game. The Faithful could do some serious damage.
And the place is less than an hour from my house, which is something the league should take into consideration.
Albany is less than 20 minutes from my house and I am in favor of Bridgeport if the attendance is better. The league should take that into account too.
It is interesting that the second showing of Yale at Bridgeport with a better seeded team that coulda shoulda woulda been in the final four drew less fans. Familiarity breeds ennui.
Quote from: judyQuote from: Josh '99Quote from: Larry72The second closest to an "event" location was Lake Placid. For those of us who experienced Cornell-Clarkson in 1970 in the old rink for the NCAA championship and/or the USA gold medal run in 1980, this is a special place. The town is still quaint, fun, and not too expensive. Yes, it's a drive for most, but not truly terrible. However, the biggest problem with it is the Olympic ice sheet. I believe that if it was 200x85, the ECAC could seriously consider it.
If I recall correctly (others can chime in here), one of the main criticisms about Placid was that hotels there were too expensive, and, more precisely, had draconian policies about minimum stays and cancellations that made it hard for people to plan to attend or not based on the results of the QFs. It's also a drive that can be dangerous if the weather is uncooperative; I know three people who had fairly serious car accidents traveling to the 1997 tournament, for example.
Yes, the price and the cancellation policy made it difficult for people who weren't going to make a weekend of it.
I also remember the first year I went up to LP, I hit a deer on the way up and I learned that it's something of a rite of passage or something to hit that deer since it's happened to many others on the way up.
That's one tough deer!
Quote from: martyIt is interesting that the second showing of Yale at Bridgeport with a better seeded team that coulda shoulda woulda been in the final four drew less fans. Familiarity breeds ennui.
It's because of the Vermont fans that were there in 2009.
Quote from: adamwKen is definitely biased about it, but it should be in AC anymore, that much is true. ... Bridgeport to me is a very good idea. It's a nice new arena. Absolutely nothing to do there - but at this point, whatever. Just put it in a nice building, and hope for the best. At least it's new, accessible, and a nice place to watch a game.
This is, of course, assuming they won't send it back to Lake Placid.
Re: Boston - said it before every time it comes up, will say it again ... this is not 1970 or even 1985 ... The Boston-area teams being in the ECAC tournament were a huge factor. They don't exist anymore except Harvard, and Harvard doesn't even draw for the Beanpot anymore. Also, the ECAC tournament was huge then - it had major importance, much more than today, in the grand scheme of things. Those days are gone - forget Boston.
This is a stretch but while we're thinking about Bridgeport, it's worth noting that the "nothing" in the area does include a decent minor league ballpark right next door. It seems to me that with the right coordination, the league could use that facility to host fan fest type activities and pep rallies and expand the available space for receptions etc. If you set up vendors and some measure of attractions it would give folks a full day's worth of activity without having to venture into Bridgeport proper. Folks on Long Island wouldn't even need a car if they took the ferry over. If we're dreaming things up, it's certainly a way to turn nothing into something.
I have not so fond memories of hanging out at Dunn Tire Park in April 2003...
Quote from: Chris '03Folks on Long Island wouldn't even need a car if they took the ferry over.
Most of them would still need a car to get to the ferry, right?
I do like your baseball stadium fanfest idea; I'd say I share your not-so-fond memories of Dunn Tire Park, but I went from zero to blackout drunk in about 8 seconds after that game ended and don't actually remember it.
Quote from: Chris '03Folks on Long Island wouldn't even need a car if they took the ferry over.
The two biggest pluses for Bridgeport are A) an appropriately sized modern arena, and B) transit access. You have I-95, CT-8 (connects to the Merritt Parkway), MetroNorth, Amtrak, and the LI Ferry all within a couple of blocks of the arena.
The downsides are: A) More complaints about the "dumpiness" of the host city and B) Many more fans just going back to NYC after each game, rather than staying and contributing to the "festival" atmosphere of the tournament.
For people who want to feel better about the region, just go over to the center of Fairfield for your typical Stepford CT experience.
If there is any serious talk of using the baseball stadium to do some sort of fan festival for our hypothetical Bridgeport ECAC tournament, then I would suggest looking at coordinating something with the University of Bridgeport. It's a short walk to campus and an even shorter shuttle bus ride.
If nothing else, I'd coordinate a pregame get-together for elynah folks somewhere on campus.
Quote from: Kyle RoseI think Bridgeport is worth a try: it's roughly two hours further from Potsdam and Ithaca than Albany, which is unfortunate, but still a hell of a lot closer and cheaper than AC. Just make it one year at first instead of three in case it doesn't work out.
It's not really "a hell of a lot closer" than AC. They're both 5 hours, give or take. Maybe 30 min closer.
Quote from: Jim HylaQuote from: Kyle RoseI think Bridgeport is worth a try: it's roughly two hours further from Potsdam and Ithaca than Albany, which is unfortunate, but still a hell of a lot closer and cheaper than AC. Just make it one year at first instead of three in case it doesn't work out.
It's not really "a hell of a lot closer" than AC. They're both 5 hours, give or take. Maybe 30 min closer.
Jim is spot on with the 30 min delta according to Google Maps (4:46 vs. 5:13). That's Ithaca though. It's a bunch worse for pretty much everyone else in the league except for Princeton.
Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: Jim HylaWhere does the Big Ten go, to Detroit? What about the new "super" conf?
B1G Hockey will play its first tournament in Saint Paul, MN at the Xcel Energy Center. The B1G is looking for a rotation (sound familiar?) of venues to be fair to its geographically disparate teams. The envisioned rotation includes Saint Paul and Detroit. However, the Xcel Energy Center is the only confirmed venue so far.
What dicks. By going with a rotation, they prevent the WCHA and the NCHA from using either of the two best choices for their tournaments. I guess maybe the NCHA will go to Denver?
(My apologies if these issues have already been settled and I'm not aware of it.)
Dick.
Quote from: KeithKQuote from: Jim HylaQuote from: Kyle RoseI think Bridgeport is worth a try: it's roughly two hours further from Potsdam and Ithaca than Albany, which is unfortunate, but still a hell of a lot closer and cheaper than AC. Just make it one year at first instead of three in case it doesn't work out.
It's not really "a hell of a lot closer" than AC. They're both 5 hours, give or take. Maybe 30 min closer.
Jim is spot on with the 30 min delta according to Google Maps (4:46 vs. 5:13). That's Ithaca though. It's a bunch worse for pretty much everyone else in the league except for Princeton.
Yeah, I was referring to general ECAC proximity, not to Ithaca specifically.
Quote from: Roy 82Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: Jim HylaWhere does the Big Ten go, to Detroit? What about the new "super" conf?
B1G Hockey will play its first tournament in Saint Paul, MN at the Xcel Energy Center. The B1G is looking for a rotation (sound familiar?) of venues to be fair to its geographically disparate teams. The envisioned rotation includes Saint Paul and Detroit. However, the Xcel Energy Center is the only confirmed venue so far.
What dicks. By going with a rotation, they prevent the WCHA and the NCHA from using either of the two best choices for their tournaments. I guess maybe the NCHA will go to Denver?
(My apologies if these issues have already been settled and I'm not aware of it.)
Dick.
Characteristic. ::rolleyes::
What they need to do is play in a smaller rink, so that they fill it up and create a championship environment. I'm sure there are plenty of worthy 6-8000 arenas (like Lake Placid or Syracuse) available. 10,000 + is just too big for the league right now.
(edit: Seems like the Proletariat wants Bridgeport. I support that)
Quote from: The RancorWhat they need to do is play in a smaller rink, so that they fill it up and create a championship environment. I'm sure there are plenty of worthy 6-8000 arenas (like Lake Placid or Syracuse) available. 10,000 + is just too big for the league right now.
(edit: Seems like the Proletariat wants Bridgeport. I support that)
If a group of current students and alumni of an Ivy League institution constitutes "the proletariat," what has the world come to?
Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: The RancorWhat they need to do is play in a smaller rink, so that they fill it up and create a championship environment. I'm sure there are plenty of worthy 6-8000 arenas (like Lake Placid or Syracuse) available. 10,000 + is just too big for the league right now.
(edit: Seems like the Proletariat wants Bridgeport. I support that)
If a group of current students and alumni of an Ivy League institution constitutes "the proletariat," what has the world come to?
We are the 98th percentile!
I can't nobody has mentioned this... (it may be because it's stupid, but hey, so is AC):
Montreal.
Ithaca, NY to Lake Placid, NY: 4:49
Ithaca, NY to Montreal, QC: 5:34
Boston, MA to Montreal, QC: 5:28
Boston, MA to Lake Placid, NY: 5:23
providence, RI to Lake Placid, NY: 5:18
Providence, RI to Montreal, QC, Canada: 6:16
New Haven, CT to Lake Placid, NY: 5:05
New Haven, CT to Montreal, QC, Canada: 6:16
Albany, NY to Lake Placid, NY: 2:32
Albany, NY to Montreal, QC, Canada: 3:43
And so on, and so forth.
It's close to the North Country teams. It's just as close to Cornell as Lake Placid. Nobody else goes anyways, and if they did it would be a weekend trip so what's 5 versus 6 hours?
It's a destination, and lord knows they like hockey enough.
Quote from: BMacI can't nobody has mentioned this... (it may be because it's stupid, but hey, so is AC):
Montreal.
Ithaca, NY to Lake Placid, NY: 4:49
Ithaca, NY to Montreal, QC: 5:34
Boston, MA to Montreal, QC: 5:28
Boston, MA to Lake Placid, NY: 5:23
providence, RI to Lake Placid, NY: 5:18
Providence, RI to Montreal, QC, Canada: 6:16
New Haven, CT to Lake Placid, NY: 5:05
New Haven, CT to Montreal, QC, Canada: 6:16
Albany, NY to Lake Placid, NY: 2:32
Albany, NY to Montreal, QC, Canada: 3:43
And so on, and so forth.
It's close to the North Country teams. It's just as close to Cornell as Lake Placid. Nobody else goes anyways, and if they did it would be a weekend trip so what's 5 versus 6 hours?
It's a destination, and lord knows they like hockey enough.
I suggested Canada earlier as a radical solution, but the more I thought about it, the need for passports and that kind of logistics would make the trip kind of hard to plan for.
Quote from: BMacI can't nobody has mentioned this... (it may be because it's stupid, but hey, so is AC): Montreal.
There's history, too: Clarkson's founder was a hockey fanatic from Montreal. Played on the St. Lawrence River and got a breakaway.
Quote from: The RancorWhat they need to do is play in a smaller rink, so that they fill it up and create a championship environment. I'm sure there are plenty of worthy 6-8000 arenas (like Lake Placid or Syracuse) available. 10,000 + is just too big for the league right now.
(edit: Seems like the Proletariat wants Bridgeport. I support that)
Commie!
When I heard that Bob Belber the Times Union Center (nee Knick Arena, aka the Pepsi Arena) was going to be on TV today I emailed the host to ask if he could bring up the ECAC and NCAA Regional loss issue. He asked about the ECACs and Belber responded. The video mentions 2013 in addition to 2014-16.
This clip will be live sometime after midnight.
Video Clip (http://youtu.be/48a4YO2Z4IU)
Quote from: martyWhen I heard that Bob Belber the Times Union Center (nee Knick Arena, aka the Pepsi Arena) was going to be on TV today I emailed the host to ask if he could bring up the ECAC and NCAA Regional loss issue. He asked about the ECACs and Belber responded. The video mentions 2013 in addition to 2014-16.
This clip will be live sometime after midnight.
Video Clip (http://youtu.be/48a4YO2Z4IU)
Thanks, Marty!
I did almost fall out of my chair when he started talking about how the U/H title game may have sold out the TUC....
Quote from: Chris '03Quote from: martyWhen I heard that Bob Belber the Times Union Center (nee Knick Arena, aka the Pepsi Arena) was going to be on TV today I emailed the host to ask if he could bring up the ECAC and NCAA Regional loss issue. He asked about the ECACs and Belber responded. The video mentions 2013 in addition to 2014-16.
This clip will be live sometime after midnight.
Video Clip (http://youtu.be/48a4YO2Z4IU)
Thanks, Marty!
I did almost fall out of my chair when he started talking about how the U/H title game may have sold out the TUC....
"My guess is we would've had over 10,000 people." Never mind that they already played in a Final in Albany, and it barely broke 6500.
Quote from: RichH"My guess is we would've had over 10,000 people." Never mind that they already played in a Final in Albany, and it barely broke 6500.
I'm OK with the arena manager saying that. What's hysterical is the other guy saying "oh, there's no question." That was talk radio-level stupidity right there.
Quote from: css228Quote from: BMacI can't nobody has mentioned this... (it may be because it's stupid, but hey, so is AC):
Montreal.
Ithaca, NY to Lake Placid, NY: 4:49
Ithaca, NY to Montreal, QC: 5:34
Boston, MA to Montreal, QC: 5:28
Boston, MA to Lake Placid, NY: 5:23
providence, RI to Lake Placid, NY: 5:18
Providence, RI to Montreal, QC, Canada: 6:16
New Haven, CT to Lake Placid, NY: 5:05
New Haven, CT to Montreal, QC, Canada: 6:16
Albany, NY to Lake Placid, NY: 2:32
Albany, NY to Montreal, QC, Canada: 3:43
And so on, and so forth.
It's close to the North Country teams. It's just as close to Cornell as Lake Placid. Nobody else goes anyways, and if they did it would be a weekend trip so what's 5 versus 6 hours?
It's a destination, and lord knows they like hockey enough.
I suggested Canada earlier as a radical solution, but the more I thought about it, the need for passports and that kind of logistics would make the trip kind of hard to plan for.
not for
our team.
Bob Belber is just being a good salesman here. He also mentioned in this appearance that he often forces acts into Albany by packaging venues. His group controls some larger arenas. If an act wants to play in the big arena on the weekend it's often true that Albany sees them during the week. The Times Union Center's income went up in 2011 without the ECAC tourney. He is a very effective manager.
Quote from: The RancorQuote from: css228Quote from: BMacI can't nobody has mentioned this... (it may be because it's stupid, but hey, so is AC):
Montreal.
Ithaca, NY to Lake Placid, NY: 4:49
Ithaca, NY to Montreal, QC: 5:34
Boston, MA to Montreal, QC: 5:28
Boston, MA to Lake Placid, NY: 5:23
providence, RI to Lake Placid, NY: 5:18
Providence, RI to Montreal, QC, Canada: 6:16
New Haven, CT to Lake Placid, NY: 5:05
New Haven, CT to Montreal, QC, Canada: 6:16
Albany, NY to Lake Placid, NY: 2:32
Albany, NY to Montreal, QC, Canada: 3:43
And so on, and so forth.
It's close to the North Country teams. It's just as close to Cornell as Lake Placid. Nobody else goes anyways, and if they did it would be a weekend trip so what's 5 versus 6 hours?
It's a destination, and lord knows they like hockey enough.
I suggested Canada earlier as a radical solution, but the more I thought about it, the need for passports and that kind of logistics would make the trip kind of hard to plan for.
not for our team.
No, but what about our
fans? I don't know how many current Cornellians or alumni have passports. Personally, I do not, and Canada would be a huge barrier for a lot of them. (Granted not all, but still. If we're looking for better solutions to get more fans, we shouldn't add an extra barrier.
I seriously doubt you'd get ANY local support in Montreal, either. There aren't too many Quebecois in the ECAC, and Montrealers are notoriously parochial about their hockey support. There are more Ontario kids in the ECAC, so if you were going to consider Canada (which you shouldn't) Ottowa or Toronto are better bets.
Quote from: bnr24Quote from: The RancorQuote from: css228Quote from: BMacI can't nobody has mentioned this... (it may be because it's stupid, but hey, so is AC):
Montreal.
Ithaca, NY to Lake Placid, NY: 4:49
Ithaca, NY to Montreal, QC: 5:34
Boston, MA to Montreal, QC: 5:28
Boston, MA to Lake Placid, NY: 5:23
providence, RI to Lake Placid, NY: 5:18
Providence, RI to Montreal, QC, Canada: 6:16
New Haven, CT to Lake Placid, NY: 5:05
New Haven, CT to Montreal, QC, Canada: 6:16
Albany, NY to Lake Placid, NY: 2:32
Albany, NY to Montreal, QC, Canada: 3:43
And so on, and so forth.
It's close to the North Country teams. It's just as close to Cornell as Lake Placid. Nobody else goes anyways, and if they did it would be a weekend trip so what's 5 versus 6 hours?
It's a destination, and lord knows they like hockey enough.
I suggested Canada earlier as a radical solution, but the more I thought about it, the need for passports and that kind of logistics would make the trip kind of hard to plan for.
not for our team.
No, but what about our fans? I don't know how many current Cornellians or alumni have passports. Personally, I do not, and Canada would be a huge barrier for a lot of them. (Granted not all, but still. If we're looking for better solutions to get more fans, we shouldn't add an extra barrier.
Also, I know that geographically Upstate New York and Canada are proximate, but I do not know how many Upstaters (a significant portion of the ECAC fanbase with Clarkson, Colgate, Cornell, RPI, SLU, and Union) would be amenable to going to Canada to see
their team play in another nation. Upstate New York is very proud of its hockey tradition. Even though they will cheer on players from Canada who come to play at august Upstate institutions, I doubt many would be happy to travel to Canada. Furthermore, I know that there are rumors that Toronto is in talks to host the 2015 Frozen Four, but Toronto has less of a language barrier (as manageable as it might be) than Montreal.
Quote from: bnr24Quote from: The RancorQuote from: css228Quote from: BMacI can't nobody has mentioned this... (it may be because it's stupid, but hey, so is AC):
Montreal.
Ithaca, NY to Lake Placid, NY: 4:49
Ithaca, NY to Montreal, QC: 5:34
Boston, MA to Montreal, QC: 5:28
Boston, MA to Lake Placid, NY: 5:23
providence, RI to Lake Placid, NY: 5:18
Providence, RI to Montreal, QC, Canada: 6:16
New Haven, CT to Lake Placid, NY: 5:05
New Haven, CT to Montreal, QC, Canada: 6:16
Albany, NY to Lake Placid, NY: 2:32
Albany, NY to Montreal, QC, Canada: 3:43
And so on, and so forth.
It's close to the North Country teams. It's just as close to Cornell as Lake Placid. Nobody else goes anyways, and if they did it would be a weekend trip so what's 5 versus 6 hours?
It's a destination, and lord knows they like hockey enough.
I suggested Canada earlier as a radical solution, but the more I thought about it, the need for passports and that kind of logistics would make the trip kind of hard to plan for.
not for our team.
No, but what about our fans? I don't know how many current Cornellians or alumni have passports. Personally, I do not, and Canada would be a huge barrier for a lot of them. (Granted not all, but still. If we're looking for better solutions to get more fans, we shouldn't add an extra barrier.
Agreed. I have a passport, but I definitely don't keep it with me at school, and getting it from home to my place in Ithaca on a week's notice would be expensive at the least. For people who don't already have them, it'd be impossible to get it on short notice, assuming they don't want to drive down to the State Department for an expedited passport. Furthermore, the people of Montreal love watching the Q and their Habs. That's no guarantee they would come out for American College Hockey. And the Bell Centre is a big building. Basically, as great a destination as it would undeniably be, attendance would probably be worse than AC. It would definitely be a lot of empty seats to look at.
Quote from: RobbI seriously doubt you'd get ANY local support in Montreal, either. There aren't too many Quebecois in the ECAC, and Montrealers are notoriously parochial about their hockey support. There are more Ontario kids in the ECAC, so if you were going to consider Canada (which you shouldn't) Ottowa or Toronto are better bets.
I agree Montreal wouldn't make any sense, but smaller Canadian cities like Ottawa or even smaller, maybe Kingston could make sense. Geographically, I'm not sure if there's any other cities with teams in the O or the Q that make sense, but Kingston seems like it should be a reasonable distance from the best traveling ECAC fan bases. If they did Ottawa, the Civic Centre would make more sense than Scotiabank Place. I think the Ottawa Civic Centre holds around 9K and the K-Rock Centre in Kingston is around 6K. They could even make it part of a triple header with a 67s or Frontenacs game. The ECAC semis and finals are typically the same weekend as the last regular season games in the O.
I don't think passports are that huge an issue, because honestly, how hard is it to get a passport? And it would have the added benefit of whatever undergrads came would be able to legally come out for drinks after the games. The biggest drawback would be the likelihood of snow may be even more than any of the other sites discussed, except I guess Lake Placid?
Quote from: Ronald '09I don't think passports are that huge an issue, because honestly, how hard is it to get a passport?
If we're looking for was to reduce the expense of an average undergrad's trip to the ECAC tournament, the difficulty of obtaining one doesn't matter as much as the cost. And last I checked, that was over $100.
Quote from: Ronald '09Quote from: RobbI seriously doubt you'd get ANY local support in Montreal, either. There aren't too many Quebecois in the ECAC, and Montrealers are notoriously parochial about their hockey support. There are more Ontario kids in the ECAC, so if you were going to consider Canada (which you shouldn't) Ottowa or Toronto are better bets.
I agree Montreal wouldn't make any sense, but smaller Canadian cities like Ottawa or even smaller, maybe Kingston could make sense. Geographically, I'm not sure if there's any other cities with teams in the O or the Q that make sense, but Kingston seems like it should be a reasonable distance from the best traveling ECAC fan bases. If they did Ottawa, the Civic Centre would make more sense than Scotiabank Place. I think the Ottawa Civic Centre holds around 9K and the K-Rock Centre in Kingston is around 6K. They could even make it part of a triple header with a 67s or Frontenacs game. The ECAC semis and finals are typically the same weekend as the last regular season games in the O.
I don't think passports are that huge an issue, because honestly, how hard is it to get a passport? And it would have the added benefit of whatever undergrads came would be able to legally come out for drinks after the games. The biggest drawback would be the likelihood of snow may be even more than any of the other sites discussed, except I guess Lake Placid?
Its a matter of having one or getting one on short notice. I know very few students who keep their passports with them at school even if they have them, for the matter of fact that school isn't the best place to keep your sensitive documents. Besides the only way to get one on short notice, and lets face it college students aren't the best at planning ahead, is to go to DC and for extra expense of expediting it. You're right, a passport is not hard to get if you plan ahead, but come on, that's not your average students strong point.
Play it on a barge outside the 15 mile limit. "Roads? Where we're going we don't need any roads."
Quote from: BeeeejQuote from: Ronald '09I don't think passports are that huge an issue, because honestly, how hard is it to get a passport?
If we're looking for was to reduce the expense of an average undergrad's trip to the ECAC tournament, the difficulty of obtaining one doesn't matter as much as the cost. And last I checked, that was over $100.
The State Department website (http://travel.state.gov/passport/processing/processing_1740.html) isn't really clear about how long it takes to get a passport, but it seems like it usually takes 4-6 weeks and could take as long as 10 weeks unless you apply for an expedited passport and even then it's 2-3 weeks. That basically will prevent fans that don't already have passports from attending the game even if they're willing to pay the extra $60 for an expedited passport.
Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinAlso, I know that geographically Upstate New York and Canada are proximate, but I do not know how many Upstaters (a significant portion of the ECAC fanbase with Clarkson, Colgate, Cornell, RPI, SLU, and Union) would be amenable to going to Canada to see their team play in another nation. Upstate New York is very proud of its hockey tradition. Even though they will cheer on players from Canada who come to play at august Upstate institutions, I doubt many would be happy to travel to Canada. Furthermore, I know that there are rumors that Toronto is in talks to host the 2015 Frozen Four, but Toronto has less of a language barrier (as manageable as it might be) than Montreal.
Clarkson has played non-conference games in Ottawa in recent years (vs. SLU in 2006 and Colgate in 2003) and they played North Dakota in Winnipeg THIS season. But yeah, I don't think moving the conference championship to Canada is the answer for most of the reasons already spelled out.
A side observation: this season, Clarkson played neutral-site games in Alaska, Manitoba, Florida, Maine, and Lake Placid. Impressive, but where was the Arizona trip, slackers?
Quote from: martyBob Belber is just being a good salesman here. He also mentioned in this appearance that he often forces acts into Albany by packaging venues. His group controls some larger arenas. If an act wants to play in the big arena on the weekend it's often true that Albany sees them during the week. The Times Union Center's income went up in 2011 without the ECAC tourney. He is a very effective manager.
That answers my question from yesterday when I wondered how Albany got a date on Bruce Springsteen's current tour.
Quote from: Ronald '09Quote from: RobbI seriously doubt you'd get ANY local support in Montreal, either. There aren't too many Quebecois in the ECAC, and Montrealers are notoriously parochial about their hockey support. There are more Ontario kids in the ECAC, so if you were going to consider Canada (which you shouldn't) Ottowa or Toronto are better bets.
I agree Montreal wouldn't make any sense, but smaller Canadian cities like Ottawa or even smaller, maybe Kingston could make sense. Geographically, I'm not sure if there's any other cities with teams in the O or the Q that make sense, but Kingston seems like it should be a reasonable distance from the best traveling ECAC fan bases.
We could get players' parents (and recruits) if we held it in Nanaimo **] (I was going to advocate St. Johns, which would be awesome for postgame drinking, but we seem to be limited to about one Newfoundlander every 10 years.)
Quote from: jtn27Quote from: BeeeejQuote from: Ronald '09I don't think passports are that huge an issue, because honestly, how hard is it to get a passport?
If we're looking for was to reduce the expense of an average undergrad's trip to the ECAC tournament, the difficulty of obtaining one doesn't matter as much as the cost. And last I checked, that was over $100.
The State Department website (http://travel.state.gov/passport/processing/processing_1740.html) isn't really clear about how long it takes to get a passport, but it seems like it usually takes 4-6 weeks and could take as long as 10 weeks unless you apply for an expedited passport and even then it's 2-3 weeks. That basically will prevent fans that don't already have passports from attending the game even if they're willing to pay the extra $60 for an expedited passport.
Turnaround can be much faster but it is far more costlier. Also, that is assuming there are no bureaucratic errors. The State Department made an error with my passport last summer, and generated and delivered a new one within two days. Then again, it could be because I needed it to take courses with Chief Justice Roberts over the summer in Florence. I don't think that the "I really need a passport to attend a hockey tournament" argument carries the same weight.
Quote from: BeeeejQuote from: Ronald '09I don't think passports are that huge an issue, because honestly, how hard is it to get a passport?
If we're looking for was to reduce the expense of an average undergrad's trip to the ECAC tournament, the difficulty of obtaining one doesn't matter as much as the cost. And last I checked, that was over $100.
Yup. Over a hundred and for students or recent alumni on a budget who are already scraping money together to go to a tournament, an extra hundred dollars (assuming that they can actually get it in time which would not be feasible at all) is a lot.
Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: jtn27Quote from: BeeeejQuote from: Ronald '09I don't think passports are that huge an issue, because honestly, how hard is it to get a passport?
If we're looking for was to reduce the expense of an average undergrad's trip to the ECAC tournament, the difficulty of obtaining one doesn't matter as much as the cost. And last I checked, that was over $100.
The State Department website (http://travel.state.gov/passport/processing/processing_1740.html) isn't really clear about how long it takes to get a passport, but it seems like it usually takes 4-6 weeks and could take as long as 10 weeks unless you apply for an expedited passport and even then it's 2-3 weeks. That basically will prevent fans that don't already have passports from attending the game even if they're willing to pay the extra $60 for an expedited passport.
Turnaround can be much faster but it is far more costlier. Also, that is assuming there are no bureaucratic errors. The State Department made an error with my passport last summer, and generated and delivered a new one within two days. Then again, it could be because I needed it to take courses with Chief Justice Roberts over the summer in Florence. I don't think that the "I really need a passport to attend a hockey tournament" argument carries the same weight.
I'm not sure "law student" ranks much higher on the state department's priority list over "hockey fan."
Quote from: Chris '03Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: jtn27Quote from: BeeeejQuote from: Ronald '09I don't think passports are that huge an issue, because honestly, how hard is it to get a passport?
If we're looking for was to reduce the expense of an average undergrad's trip to the ECAC tournament, the difficulty of obtaining one doesn't matter as much as the cost. And last I checked, that was over $100.
The State Department website (http://travel.state.gov/passport/processing/processing_1740.html) isn't really clear about how long it takes to get a passport, but it seems like it usually takes 4-6 weeks and could take as long as 10 weeks unless you apply for an expedited passport and even then it's 2-3 weeks. That basically will prevent fans that don't already have passports from attending the game even if they're willing to pay the extra $60 for an expedited passport.
Turnaround can be much faster but it is far more costlier. Also, that is assuming there are no bureaucratic errors. The State Department made an error with my passport last summer, and generated and delivered a new one within two days. Then again, it could be because I needed it to take courses with Chief Justice Roberts over the summer in Florence. I don't think that the "I really need a passport to attend a hockey tournament" argument carries the same weight.
I'm not sure "law student" ranks much higher on the state department's priority list over "hockey fan."
The State Department, especially under the current administration, advocates student-student cultural exchanges as one of the most effective elements of soft power for the United States. I think that students going abroad to pursue academic programs with students from other nations who will engage in such cultural exchanges are prioritized higher than students who are crossing the border for a few days to watch hockey and drink at an age that is considered too young in the United States.
Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: Chris '03Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: jtn27Quote from: BeeeejQuote from: Ronald '09I don't think passports are that huge an issue, because honestly, how hard is it to get a passport?
If we're looking for was to reduce the expense of an average undergrad's trip to the ECAC tournament, the difficulty of obtaining one doesn't matter as much as the cost. And last I checked, that was over $100.
The State Department website (http://travel.state.gov/passport/processing/processing_1740.html) isn't really clear about how long it takes to get a passport, but it seems like it usually takes 4-6 weeks and could take as long as 10 weeks unless you apply for an expedited passport and even then it's 2-3 weeks. That basically will prevent fans that don't already have passports from attending the game even if they're willing to pay the extra $60 for an expedited passport.
Turnaround can be much faster but it is far more costlier. Also, that is assuming there are no bureaucratic errors. The State Department made an error with my passport last summer, and generated and delivered a new one within two days. Then again, it could be because I needed it to take courses with Chief Justice Roberts over the summer in Florence. I don't think that the "I really need a passport to attend a hockey tournament" argument carries the same weight.
I'm not sure "law student" ranks much higher on the state department's priority list over "hockey fan."
The State Department, especially under the current administration, advocates student-student cultural exchanges as one of the most effective elements of soft power for the United States. I think that students going abroad to pursue academic programs with students from other nations who will engage in such cultural exchanges are prioritized higher than students who are crossing the border for a few days to watch hockey and drink at an age that is considered too young in the United States.
I think the fact that you were studying with the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court and not some random Italian professor might have also helped you, but the fact remains that a hockey tournament is probably not a good enough reason to get a passport on short notice.
If you're driving across the border into Canada you can use an "enhanced driver's license" as ID instead of a passport. Cheaper and somewhat easier to get than a passport (though, it does require a trip to the DMV....ugh). It isn't much faster than getting a passport.
In my case, getting one for myself and enhanced, non-driver state IDs for my minor-age children instead of getting passports saved me a few hundred dollars. Plus, I didn't have to deal with getting their father to sign anything (which I would have had to do for a passport). I guess the government isn't concerned that I'm going to kidnap the children and flee to Canada or Mexico.
I do think the ID requirements make Canada a poor choice for the ECAC tourney...but somebody on here might want to cross the border and, I dunno, enjoy the pleasures of Ste Catherine St.
Enhanced IDs are a useful alternative to a full passport, but they do not have the broad utility of a passport.
CK
Quote from: jtwcornell91Quote from: Ronald '09Quote from: RobbI seriously doubt you'd get ANY local support in Montreal, either. There aren't too many Quebecois in the ECAC, and Montrealers are notoriously parochial about their hockey support. There are more Ontario kids in the ECAC, so if you were going to consider Canada (which you shouldn't) Ottowa or Toronto are better bets.
I agree Montreal wouldn't make any sense, but smaller Canadian cities like Ottawa or even smaller, maybe Kingston could make sense. Geographically, I'm not sure if there's any other cities with teams in the O or the Q that make sense, but Kingston seems like it should be a reasonable distance from the best traveling ECAC fan bases.
We could get players' parents (and recruits) if we held it in Nanaimo **] (I was going to advocate St. Johns, which would be awesome for postgame drinking, but we seem to be limited to about one Newfoundlander every 10 years.)
From NYC it costs $500+ to fly to Newfoundland and you're lucky if you can find a flight with just one connection in each direction. From Syracuse it's $750+ and you almost certainly have to make two connections. From Ithaca, once Kayak stops laughing at you, it's close to $1k and three connections.
Alternately, from Ithaca it's 1,822 miles by car (about as far as Regina, Saskatchewan, is in the other direction) that includes a 90-mile, seven-hour ferry ride (costing, if I'm reading the website right, about $100 per car plus $40 per passenger) from Sydney, Nova Scotia, to Newfoundland itself. It's also about 10 degrees colder than Ithaca in March, on average, and they get almost twice as much snow.
In short: sign me up!
Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: jtwcornell91Quote from: Ronald '09Quote from: RobbI seriously doubt you'd get ANY local support in Montreal, either. There aren't too many Quebecois in the ECAC, and Montrealers are notoriously parochial about their hockey support. There are more Ontario kids in the ECAC, so if you were going to consider Canada (which you shouldn't) Ottowa or Toronto are better bets.
I agree Montreal wouldn't make any sense, but smaller Canadian cities like Ottawa or even smaller, maybe Kingston could make sense. Geographically, I'm not sure if there's any other cities with teams in the O or the Q that make sense, but Kingston seems like it should be a reasonable distance from the best traveling ECAC fan bases.
We could get players' parents (and recruits) if we held it in Nanaimo **] (I was going to advocate St. Johns, which would be awesome for postgame drinking, but we seem to be limited to about one Newfoundlander every 10 years.)
From NYC it costs $500+ to fly to Newfoundland and you're lucky if you can find a flight with just one connection in each direction. From Syracuse it's $750+ and you almost certainly have to make two connections. From Ithaca, once Kayak stops laughing at you, it's close to $1k and three connections.
Alternately, from Ithaca it's 1,822 miles by car (about as far as Regina, Saskatchewan, is in the other direction) that includes a 90-mile, seven-hour ferry ride (costing, if I'm reading the website right, about $100 per car plus $40 per passenger) from Sydney, Nova Scotia, to Newfoundland itself. It's also about 10 degrees colder than Ithaca in March, on average, and they get almost twice as much snow.
In short: sign me up!
Sign me up for St. Johns. What could be better than the tropical island of Newfoundland? Hockey, drinking and Great Big Sea!
Quote from: CKinslandIf you're driving across the border into Canada you can use an "enhanced driver's license" as ID instead of a passport. Cheaper and somewhat easier to get than a passport (though, it does require a trip to the DMV....ugh). It isn't much faster than getting a passport.
In my case, getting one for myself and enhanced, non-driver state IDs for my minor-age children instead of getting passports saved me a few hundred dollars. Plus, I didn't have to deal with getting their father to sign anything (which I would have had to do for a passport). I guess the government isn't concerned that I'm going to kidnap the children and flee to Canada or Mexico.
I do think the ID requirements make Canada a poor choice for the ECAC tourney...but somebody on here might want to cross the border and, I dunno, enjoy the pleasures of Ste Catherine St.
Enhanced IDs are a useful alternative to a full passport, but they do not have the broad utility of a passport.
CK
I agree, any NY resident who even thinks about ever going to Canada should get an enhanced license. It's definately faster than a passport and you use it just like a regular drivers license. As an example, if you're in Buffalo you can just decide on the spur of the moment to go to Canada. If we ever again have a regional in Grand Rapids, you can drive through Canada. Definately worth the money, but you can't fly with it, only walk or drive. But we'll never have ECACs in Canada.
Really, it's pathetic that we need any sort of identification beyond a regular driver's license. Not to start a political screed, but this is what comes from being ruled by governors from the South. By rights, the Canada/US border should be the breeziest, wheeziest, fastest gettin' through border between non-Schengen states. We all know that's not the case.
Clearly, we need to build a wall to prevent people from walking across the border in, say, upper Montana.
Quote from: Jim HylaQuote from: CKinslandIf you're driving across the border into Canada you can use an "enhanced driver's license" as ID instead of a passport. Cheaper and somewhat easier to get than a passport (though, it does require a trip to the DMV....ugh). It isn't much faster than getting a passport.
In my case, getting one for myself and enhanced, non-driver state IDs for my minor-age children instead of getting passports saved me a few hundred dollars. Plus, I didn't have to deal with getting their father to sign anything (which I would have had to do for a passport). I guess the government isn't concerned that I'm going to kidnap the children and flee to Canada or Mexico.
I do think the ID requirements make Canada a poor choice for the ECAC tourney...but somebody on here might want to cross the border and, I dunno, enjoy the pleasures of Ste Catherine St.
Enhanced IDs are a useful alternative to a full passport, but they do not have the broad utility of a passport.
CK
I agree, any NY resident who even thinks about ever going to Canada should get an enhanced license. It's definately faster than a passport and you use it just like a regular drivers license. As an example, if you're in Buffalo you can just decide on the spur of the moment to go to Canada. If we ever again have a regional in Grand Rapids, you can drive through Canada. Definately worth the money, but you can't fly with it, only walk or drive. But we'll never have ECACs in Canada.
This is interesting because I renewed my license here in CT a few months ago and was given the option of paying more and getting the enhanced license. They told me that my license would expire before I needed it to fly and that it otherwise had no purpose whatsoever so there was no point in getting it even though I'd dug through papers for an hour to find the 75 required points of ID. Apparently passport isn't good enough. You need passport AND birth certificate AND social security card or something equally ridiculous.
None of the paperwork mentioned anything about Canada, only air travel.
Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinThe State Department, especially under the current administration, advocates student-student cultural exchanges as one of the most effective elements of soft power for the United States.
Move Hockey East to Mogadishu and take Boston back.
Quote from: Chris '03This is interesting because I renewed my license here in CT a few months ago and was given the option of paying more and getting the enhanced license. They told me that my license would expire before I needed it to fly and that it otherwise had no purpose whatsoever so there was no point in getting it even though I'd dug through papers for an hour to find the 75 required points of ID. Apparently passport isn't good enough. You need passport AND birth certificate AND social security card or something equally ridiculous.
None of the paperwork mentioned anything about Canada, only air travel.
The enhanced licenses (EDL) are only good for non-air travel between the US, Canada, Mexico and some Caribbean Islands (so, useful for cruise ship travel to select locations). The kids and I have been across the border into Canada a couple of times in the last two years (we live in Ithaca). We've never had a delay or any issues with using them.
I don't recall it being a ridiculous list of ID items required. Perhaps social security card, birth certificate and proof of residence (in our three cases, bank statements to our home address was sufficient).
Maybe CT is far enough from the border that your DMV workers aren't as familiar with their uses?
CK
So Union is pulling a Harvard.
QuoteBy Ken Schott
Thursday, March 22, 2012
With the Union students on their winter trimester break, the Dutchmen's band won't be playing at the NCAA hockey tournament East Regionals in Bridgeport, Conn.
But the team did the next-best thing — it hired the Sacred Heart band to sit in.
Did they have a band at AC?
Quote from: Jim HylaSo Union is pulling a Harvard.
QuoteBy Ken Schott
Thursday, March 22, 2012
With the Union students on their winter trimester break, the Dutchmen's band won't be playing at the NCAA hockey tournament East Regionals in Bridgeport, Conn.
But the team did the next-best thing — it hired the Sacred Heart band to sit in.
Did they have a band at AC?
No. That's what I found odd when Without a Peer wrote about their choice to hire a band for the East Regional.
Quote from: Jim HylaSo Union is pulling a Harvard.
QuoteBy Ken Schott
Thursday, March 22, 2012
With the Union students on their winter trimester break, the Dutchmen's band won't be playing at the NCAA hockey tournament East Regionals in Bridgeport, Conn.
But the team did the next-best thing — it hired the Sacred Heart band to sit in.
Did they have a band at AC?
A: Union, Harvard, and North Korea
Q: What are teams that have to hire fake fans?
Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: Jim HylaSo Union is pulling a Harvard.
QuoteBy Ken Schott
Thursday, March 22, 2012
With the Union students on their winter trimester break, the Dutchmen's band won't be playing at the NCAA hockey tournament East Regionals in Bridgeport, Conn.
But the team did the next-best thing — it hired the Sacred Heart band to sit in.
Did they have a band at AC?
No. That's what I found odd when Without a Peer wrote about their choice to hire a band for the East Regional.
I didn't think they did, but wondered when I read that. I guess they felt their ECAC fans didn't deserve it. And maybe they didn't.
Interesting Times-Union article (http://www.timesunion.com/sports/article/Union-inspired-by-a-real-veteran-3425526.php) on Union hockey.
Quote from: Jim HylaInteresting Times-Union article (http://www.timesunion.com/sports/article/Union-inspired-by-a-real-veteran-3425526.php) on Union hockey.
They made The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/sports/hockey/union-college-may-be-small-but-it-has-extra-large-dreams.html) too.
Quote from: Jim HylaQuote from: Aaron M. GriffinQuote from: Jim HylaSo Union is pulling a Harvard.
QuoteBy Ken Schott
Thursday, March 22, 2012
With the Union students on their winter trimester break, the Dutchmen's band won't be playing at the NCAA hockey tournament East Regionals in Bridgeport, Conn.
But the team did the next-best thing — it hired the Sacred Heart band to sit in.
Did they have a band at AC?
No. That's what I found odd when Without a Peer wrote about their choice to hire a band for the East Regional.
I didn't think they did, but wondered when I read that. I guess they felt their ECAC fans didn't deserve it. And maybe they didn't.
As our Cornell group was walking from dinner to the NCAA Championship game in Tampa, I overheard a good chunk of a conversation a Union official or other in-the-know guy was having. There was a 25-person Union band at the semifinal wearing white t-shirts with the Union logo. According to this guy I eavesdropped on, they were actually members of the University of South Florida band that Union hired.
He also provided some further insight. The story as I heard it is that Union only has 8-12 kids in the band (I think it's new), and when the NCAA informed them that the band of the higher seed plays the National Anthem at Tournament games, the director said "oh, they can't handle that yet," and Union decided to hire substitute bands. That's an acceptable excuse, but I hope that they still gave those Union bandies an opportunity to travel and play with SHU and USF.
Quote from: RichHAs our Cornell group was walking from dinner to the NCAA Championship game in Tampa, I overheard a good chunk of a conversation a Union official or other in-the-know guy was having. There was a 25-person Union band at the semifinal wearing white t-shirts with the Union logo. According to this guy I eavesdropped on, they were actually members of the University of South Florida band that Union hired.
He also provided some further insight. The story as I heard it is that Union only has 8-12 kids in the band (I think it's new), and when the NCAA informed them that the band of the higher seed plays the National Anthem at Tournament games, the director said "oh, they can't handle that yet," and Union decided to hire substitute bands. That's an acceptable excuse, but I hope that they still gave those Union bandies an opportunity to travel and play with SHU and USF.
I think that just barely clears the very high bar for what is considered an acceptable reason to hire another school's band, but it begs the question what self-respecting college band can't play the national anthem or learn it with 2 weeks notice? No matter how badly the band played it, it couldn't possibly be worse than what the Fray did at the basketball championship game.
Quote from: jtn27Quote from: RichHAs our Cornell group was walking from dinner to the NCAA Championship game in Tampa, I overheard a good chunk of a conversation a Union official or other in-the-know guy was having. There was a 25-person Union band at the semifinal wearing white t-shirts with the Union logo. According to this guy I eavesdropped on, they were actually members of the University of South Florida band that Union hired.
He also provided some further insight. The story as I heard it is that Union only has 8-12 kids in the band (I think it's new), and when the NCAA informed them that the band of the higher seed plays the National Anthem at Tournament games, the director said "oh, they can't handle that yet," and Union decided to hire substitute bands. That's an acceptable excuse, but I hope that they still gave those Union bandies an opportunity to travel and play with SHU and USF.
I think that just barely clears the very high bar for what is considered an acceptable reason to hire another school's band, but it begs the question what self-respecting college band can't play the national anthem or learn it with 2 weeks notice? No matter how badly the band played it, it couldn't possibly be worse than what the Fray did at the basketball championship game.
At the Michigan game, our band played the anthem. Knowing that it was normally done by the higher seeded team, I figured that the Michigan band passed on the opportunity, as it wasn't in their one song repertoire.
According to an article in the Schenectady Daily Gazette (http://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2012/apr/18/times-union-center-to-bid-for-ecac-hockey-tourname/), the ECAC will finish out the third year of its contract with Atlantic City's Boardwalk Hall, and is accepting bids for the tournament for 2014-16. Albany's Times-Union Center has already announced that it will submit a bid. Atlantic City, Lake Placid, Bridgeport, and Providence are also expected to submit bids.
Quote from: jtn27According to an article in the Schenectady Daily Gazette (http://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2012/apr/18/times-union-center-to-bid-for-ecac-hockey-tourname/), the ECAC will finish out the third year of its contract with Atlantic City's Boardwalk Hall...
That's not how I read it. Perhaps it's wishful thinking, but I found a blissful lack of certitude regarding where next year's tournament will be, e.g., Hagwell did not weigh in to say, "Gee, we'll definitely be back in AC next year, but the bid process is wide open after that."
Quote from: Scersk '97Quote from: jtn27According to an article in the Schenectady Daily Gazette (http://www.dailygazette.com/weblogs/schott/2012/apr/18/times-union-center-to-bid-for-ecac-hockey-tourname/), the ECAC will finish out the third year of its contract with Atlantic City's Boardwalk Hall...
That's not how I read it. Perhaps it's wishful thinking, but I found a blissful lack of certitude regarding where next year's tournament will be, e.g., Hagwell did not weigh in to say, "Gee, we'll definitely be back in AC next year, but the bid process is wide open after that."
I interpreted this part to mean that it would be back in AC next year:
Quote from: "Ken Schott"The bid is for the 2014-16 tournaments. The ECACH tournament concludes its three-year deal with Atlantic City, N.J., next season.
If they weren't planning on returning in 2013, the bid would be for 2013-16.
Quote from: jtn27If they weren't planning on returning in 2013, the bid would be for 2013-16.
If you watch this video (which I posted a few weeks ago) you will likely come to the conclusion that the 14-16 contract is not connected to next year. I am not saying that I expect the contract to be broken, but the bid process was set weeks ago.
Belber of TU Center (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48a4YO2Z4IU&feature=youtu.be)
Do we really need to be reminded of this game while having a discussion about future ECAC venues?
::smashfreak::
It would be nice if they used the final option year of the AC contract to do a one year demo at another site. If AC had been on a probational period it might have been cancelled after one year.
Quote from: TrotskyIt would be nice if they used the final option year of the AC contract to do a one year demo at another site. If AC had been on a probational period it might have been cancelled after one year.
But we can hope that the ECAC was on a probational period, and that AC may pull the plug.
Quote from: jtn27Atlantic City, Lake Placid, Bridgeport, and Providence are also expected to submit bids.
The article says:
QuoteBesides the TU Center, which hosted the tournament from 2003-10, and Atlantic City, the ECACH could hear bids from Bridgeport, Conn., Lake Placid and Providence, R.I.
I think even the passive-voiced "are also expected to submit bids" is probably too strong a wording of what Ken Schott actually wrote.
Someone mentioned it and inquired about it somewhere, but it's official (http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-hockey/spec-rel/041912aad.html), B1G Hockey will use a rotation between Saint Paul, MN and Detroit, MI for its tournament host site. Right now, it looks like the B1G Hockey Tournament will be hosted in Saint Paul on even years and Detroit on odd years.
Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinSomeone mentioned it and inquired about it somewhere, but it's official (http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-hockey/spec-rel/041912aad.html), B1G Hockey will use a rotation between Saint Paul, MN and Detroit, MI for its tournament host site. Right now, it looks like the B1G Hockey Tournament will be hosted in Saint Paul on even years and Detroit on odd years.
Jerks
Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: jtn27Atlantic City, Lake Placid, Bridgeport, and Providence are also expected to submit bids.
The article says:QuoteBesides the TU Center, which hosted the tournament from 2003-10, and Atlantic City, the ECACH could hear bids from Bridgeport, Conn., Lake Placid and Providence, R.I.
I think even the passive-voiced "are also expected to submit bids" is probably too strong a wording of what Ken Schott actually wrote.
Ken Schott seems to expect them to submit bids even if Hagwell might not. Technically speaking, the ECAC could hear a bid from Honolulu too, but Schott didn't include that because he doesn't expect Honolulu to submit a bid.
Quote from: css228Quote from: Aaron M. GriffinSomeone mentioned it and inquired about it somewhere, but it's official (http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-hockey/spec-rel/041912aad.html), B1G Hockey will use a rotation between Saint Paul, MN and Detroit, MI for its tournament host site. Right now, it looks like the B1G Hockey Tournament will be hosted in Saint Paul on even years and Detroit on odd years.
Jerks
Typicals ::rolleyes::
Quote from: jtn27Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: jtn27Atlantic City, Lake Placid, Bridgeport, and Providence are also expected to submit bids.
The article says:QuoteBesides the TU Center, which hosted the tournament from 2003-10, and Atlantic City, the ECACH could hear bids from Bridgeport, Conn., Lake Placid and Providence, R.I.
I think even the passive-voiced "are also expected to submit bids" is probably too strong a wording of what Ken Schott actually wrote.
Ken Schott seems to expect them to submit bids even if Hagwell might not. Technically speaking, the ECAC could hear a bid from Honolulu too, but Schott didn't include that because he doesn't expect Honolulu to submit a bid.
While Schott may expect bids from those sites, it's not what the article says. The article reads as pure speculation, which is why saying that these sites are "expected" to bid is too strong.
Quote from: Chris '03Quote from: jtn27Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: jtn27Atlantic City, Lake Placid, Bridgeport, and Providence are also expected to submit bids.
The article says:QuoteBesides the TU Center, which hosted the tournament from 2003-10, and Atlantic City, the ECACH could hear bids from Bridgeport, Conn., Lake Placid and Providence, R.I.
I think even the passive-voiced "are also expected to submit bids" is probably too strong a wording of what Ken Schott actually wrote.
Ken Schott seems to expect them to submit bids even if Hagwell might not. Technically speaking, the ECAC could hear a bid from Honolulu too, but Schott didn't include that because he doesn't expect Honolulu to submit a bid.
While Schott may expect bids from those sites, it's not what the article says. The article reads as pure speculation, which is why saying that these sites are "expected" to bid is too strong.
Fine. I give up. I'm not arguing over such minor semantics. I was wrong to use a word as strong as "expected."
Quote from: jtn27Quote from: Chris '03Quote from: jtn27Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: jtn27Atlantic City, Lake Placid, Bridgeport, and Providence are also expected to submit bids.
The article says:QuoteBesides the TU Center, which hosted the tournament from 2003-10, and Atlantic City, the ECACH could hear bids from Bridgeport, Conn., Lake Placid and Providence, R.I.
I think even the passive-voiced "are also expected to submit bids" is probably too strong a wording of what Ken Schott actually wrote.
Ken Schott seems to expect them to submit bids even if Hagwell might not. Technically speaking, the ECAC could hear a bid from Honolulu too, but Schott didn't include that because he doesn't expect Honolulu to submit a bid.
While Schott may expect bids from those sites, it's not what the article says. The article reads as pure speculation, which is why saying that these sites are "expected" to bid is too strong.
Fine. I give up. I'm not arguing over such minor semantics. I was wrong to use a word as strong as "expected."
I don't know why not. Isn't that what the off-season is for?
Quote from: jtn27Quote from: Chris '03Quote from: jtn27Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: jtn27Atlantic City, Lake Placid, Bridgeport, and Providence are also expected to submit bids.
The article says:QuoteBesides the TU Center, which hosted the tournament from 2003-10, and Atlantic City, the ECACH could hear bids from Bridgeport, Conn., Lake Placid and Providence, R.I.
I think even the passive-voiced "are also expected to submit bids" is probably too strong a wording of what Ken Schott actually wrote.
Ken Schott seems to expect them to submit bids even if Hagwell might not. Technically speaking, the ECAC could hear a bid from Honolulu too, but Schott didn't include that because he doesn't expect Honolulu to submit a bid.
While Schott may expect bids from those sites, it's not what the article says. The article reads as pure speculation, which is why saying that these sites are "expected" to bid is too strong.
Fine. I give up. I'm not arguing over such minor semantics. I was wrong to use a word as strong as "expected."
(http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/266/b/6/you__ve_been_lawyered_by_i_believe_in_matrix-d2zbky0.jpg)
Ken Schott's Albany Times-Union article appears to say the tournament will be in AC next year for a third and final year, although there's wiggle room and it's unclear if that's actually the ECAC's position or the way the story is written. It's definitely an Albany-centric story even if Lake Placid, Bridgeport, and Providence were reported to be interested. The Albany ECAC-years attendance figures are listed without comment but, for AC attendance, Schott writes, "This season's attendance at Boardwalk Hall was announced at 7,593, including 4,131 for Union's 3-1 win over Harvard in the championship game."
The ECAC's departure from Albany is having the effect the ECAC wanted: To make Albany want the tournanment back and apparently increase the offer to the ECAC because of buy-in from local business: "'I'm cautiously optimistic, because we are stepping up our bid, and would not be able to do so, if it wasn't for CDPHP [a healthcare provider] and other companies that will also be sponsors,'" [TUC GM Bob] Belber said. 'The cash amount is being increased by 50 percent, and some of the contingencies we had in the past have been eliminated.'" Half a loaf (7,500 fans in an arena that holds twice as much) is better than none.
Maybe Albany could offer a buyout to AC to start a year early?
Quote from: billhowardMaybe Albany could offer a buyout to AC to start a year early?
Don't hold your breath waiting for that. There seems to be a lot of hope here that maybe the ECAC Tournament will not be held in AC next year. While it's always a possibility that the venue will change, I've seen nothing to indicate it might. The ECAC and Boardwalk Hall signed a contract and it would probably be very difficult for one side to back out unless it was mutual. Even if the ECAC wants out, my guess is Boardwalk Hall doesn't. 7,000 people is better than none, and it would probably be difficult for the venue to schedule another event for that weekend that would pull in more people than college hockey. By looking at Boardwalk Hall's calender of events, it seems to be empty most days. In fact, in the month of June (http://www.boardwalkhall.com/calendarofevents.asp), there's only one event scheduled to be held there. No way they want to let an event walk away. I think it's time to accept that Atlantic City will be the site for one more year.
The other approach is, if we get there next year, to just find 7500 additional Cornell fans to go. :)
Quote from: jtn27Quote from: billhowardMaybe Albany could offer a buyout to AC to start a year early?
Don't hold your breath waiting for that. There seems to be a lot of hope here that maybe the ECAC Tournament will not be held in AC next year. While it's always a possibility that the venue will change, I've seen nothing to indicate it might. The ECAC and Boardwalk Hall signed a contract and it would probably be very difficult for one side to back out unless it was mutual. Even if the ECAC wants out, my guess is Boardwalk Hall doesn't. 7,000 people is better than none, and it would probably be difficult for the venue to schedule another event for that weekend that would pull in more people than college hockey. By looking at Boardwalk Hall's calender of events, it seems to be empty most days. In fact, in the month of June (http://www.boardwalkhall.com/calendarofevents.asp), there's only one event scheduled to be held there. No way they want to let an event walk away. I think it's time to accept that Atlantic City will be the site for one more year.
Well... it's not really as simple as "an event is better than no event". We know that AC was able to land the tournament because they offered the ECAC the most guaranteed money. In addition to that expense, they have to pay their ticket-takers and their ushers and their concession vendors, and pay for the lights and the refrigeration and all that other stuff. Plus they have to advertise. With those costs, there's got to be some number of tickets below which they're losing money by hosting the event, and if the attendance was below that level then they'd be better off just not having an event that weekend.
Of course, you're right to point out that we haven't heard anything that suggests that their revenue actually WAS below that point, or that AC might actually BE considering trying to back out of the agreement on that basis (which, we would guess, the ECAC might go for, on account of all the bad press they've gotten); we're ally all just hopefully speculating.
Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: jtn27Quote from: billhowardMaybe Albany could offer a buyout to AC to start a year early?
Don't hold your breath waiting for that. There seems to be a lot of hope here that maybe the ECAC Tournament will not be held in AC next year. While it's always a possibility that the venue will change, I've seen nothing to indicate it might. The ECAC and Boardwalk Hall signed a contract and it would probably be very difficult for one side to back out unless it was mutual. Even if the ECAC wants out, my guess is Boardwalk Hall doesn't. 7,000 people is better than none, and it would probably be difficult for the venue to schedule another event for that weekend that would pull in more people than college hockey. By looking at Boardwalk Hall's calender of events, it seems to be empty most days. In fact, in the month of June (http://www.boardwalkhall.com/calendarofevents.asp), there's only one event scheduled to be held there. No way they want to let an event walk away. I think it's time to accept that Atlantic City will be the site for one more year.
Well... it's not really as simple as "an event is better than no event". We know that AC was able to land the tournament because they offered the ECAC the most guaranteed money. In addition to that expense, they have to pay their ticket-takers and their ushers and their concession vendors, and pay for the lights and the refrigeration and all that other stuff. Plus they have to advertise. With those costs, there's got to be some number of tickets below which they're losing money by hosting the event, and if the attendance was below that level then they'd be better off just not having an event that weekend.
Of course, you're right to point out that we haven't heard anything that suggests that their revenue actually WAS below that point, or that AC might actually BE considering trying to back out of the agreement on that basis (which, we would guess, the ECAC might go for, on account of all the bad press they've gotten); we're ally all just hopefully speculating.
When I was at Union/RPI away games, I was told by someone close to the Times-Union Center (You know, we were both leaning on the wall, very close.) that AC had lost money in 2011, and that they can get out of their contract if this year was also bad. So here's hoping.
Quote from: jtn27Quote from: Chris '03Quote from: jtn27Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: jtn27Atlantic City, Lake Placid, Bridgeport, and Providence are also expected to submit bids.
The article says:QuoteBesides the TU Center, which hosted the tournament from 2003-10, and Atlantic City, the ECACH could hear bids from Bridgeport, Conn., Lake Placid and Providence, R.I.
I think even the passive-voiced "are also expected to submit bids" is probably too strong a wording of what Ken Schott actually wrote.
Ken Schott seems to expect them to submit bids even if Hagwell might not. Technically speaking, the ECAC could hear a bid from Honolulu too, but Schott didn't include that because he doesn't expect Honolulu to submit a bid.
While Schott may expect bids from those sites, it's not what the article says. The article reads as pure speculation, which is why saying that these sites are "expected" to bid is too strong.
Fine. I give up. I'm not arguing over such minor semantics. I was wrong to use a word as strong as "expected."
Are you interested in journalism for real? Because accurately representing source documents is supposed to be part of the job.
Quote from: ugarteQuote from: jtn27Quote from: Chris '03Quote from: jtn27Quote from: Josh '99Quote from: jtn27Atlantic City, Lake Placid, Bridgeport, and Providence are also expected to submit bids.
The article says:QuoteBesides the TU Center, which hosted the tournament from 2003-10, and Atlantic City, the ECACH could hear bids from Bridgeport, Conn., Lake Placid and Providence, R.I.
I think even the passive-voiced "are also expected to submit bids" is probably too strong a wording of what Ken Schott actually wrote.
Ken Schott seems to expect them to submit bids even if Hagwell might not. Technically speaking, the ECAC could hear a bid from Honolulu too, but Schott didn't include that because he doesn't expect Honolulu to submit a bid.
While Schott may expect bids from those sites, it's not what the article says. The article reads as pure speculation, which is why saying that these sites are "expected" to bid is too strong.
Fine. I give up. I'm not arguing over such minor semantics. I was wrong to use a word as strong as "expected."
Are you interested in journalism for real? Because accurately representing source documents is supposed to be part of the job.
Good thing you qualified with "supposed to."