I just got around to looking at this week's polls. They are copied below (excuse the formatting):
1/25 USA Today
1 Miami University 507 (30) 2 16-4-6
2 University of Wisconsin 472 (3) 3 14-6-4
3 University of Denver 446 (1) 1 14-6-4
4 University of North Dakota 356 6 13-8-5
5 St. Cloud State University 322 12 16-7-3
6 Bemidji State University 281 14 17-5-2
7 Yale University 272 5 11-5-3
8 Cornell University 269 7 10-5-3
9 University of Minnesota Duluth 250 4 16-9-1
10 Ferris State University 244 9 17-7-2
11 Colorado College 188 8 14-9-3
12 University of New Hampshire 144 NR 12-7-4
13 Michigan State University 128 11 16-8-4
14 University of Massachusetts 74 15 15-9-0
15 Boston College 67 10 12-8-2
1/25 USCHO
1 Miami (37) 16-4-6 984 2
2 Wisconsin ( 8) 14-6-4 938 3
3 Denver ( 5) 14-6-4 917 1
4 North Dakota 13-8-5 748 5
5 St. Cloud State 16-7-3 679 12
6 Yale 11-5-3 637 6
7 Bemidji State 17-5-2 633 14
8 Cornell 10-5-3 631 9
9 Minnesota-Duluth 16-9-1 622 4
10 Ferris State 17-7-2 601 8
11 Colorado College 14-9-3 590 7
12 Michigan State 16-8-4 480 10
13 New Hampshire 12-7-4 436 16
14 Boston College 12-8-2 345 11
15 Massachusetts 15-9-0 326 15
16 Mass.-Lowell 14-9-2 226 19
17 Vermont 12-8-2 214 17
18 Union 13-6-5 210 13
19 Maine 11-9-2 69 20
20 Michigan 14-11-1 68 NR
So...in the USA Today poll, Cornell drops from 7th to 8th for splitting with the 6th place team,and the 6th place team moves up to 4th for splitting with the 7th place team? How does that make sense?
The USCHO poll is much more reasonable, with both Cornell and UND moving up a spot.
I know these are polls,and trying to understand the logic behind them is silly, but this oddness just really jumped out at me, and I had to vent. Figured this was the right place.
Some hockey writer noticed the same thing. This phenomena is mentioned in the following ECAC notebook from INCH, under "Rankings Outrage"
http://insidecollegehockey.com/inch/category/ecachockey/
Quote from: CM cWo 44Some hockey writer noticed the same thing. This phenomena is mentioned in the following ECAC notebook from INCH, under "Rankings Outrage"
http://insidecollegehockey.com/inch/category/ecachockey/
Thanks for the link. The writer actually erroneously weakens his point by saying UND moved from 5th to 4th when it was actually from 6th to 4th. Even so, glad to see someone else noticed and thought it was odd.
WHAT?! Polls don't make sense?! The very foundation of my being has been shattered by this revelation! I'm going to go sit quietly in the corner for a bit to contemplate this.
Maybe there is logic. Each team won a game, but North Dakota looked really good both nights. Maybe the poll voters were looking beyond the scores when ir came to moving up ND. Is there anybody who'd like to see Cornell-ND as a first-round NCAA matchup if we could defer that bracket possibility until, say, the final four? That explains North Dakota. On the other hand, we shut them out Friday (even if that was lucky - you don't win many games when you're outshot 2-1) and Saturday gave up a fluke goal, a goal that should have been a ND penalty 5 seconds earlier, and an empty net goal. So our GAA against a top five team effectively was, should have been, 0.50.
Quote from: CowbellGuyWHAT?! Polls don't make sense?! The very foundation of my being has been shattered by this revelation! I'm going to go sit quietly in the corner for a bit to contemplate this.
or, to say it another way, who cares, why do you care?
Now to jump to an equally ridiculous idea, the Troy Record has an article on RPI-Union playing an outdoor game. (http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2010/01/28/sports/doc4b6124038f828499165216.txt) I'm reading about "the first outdoor AHL game" being played in Syracuse, and I wonder why the Syr Crunch don't spend more time on trying to figure out how to win some games. Polls and outdoor hockey games are similar, they're nice to talk about but they have no meaning.
North Dakota played on the road, so they deserve more credit for the split than Cornell does. USA Today voters may have decided that we were a bit over ranked before. You can come up with reasons if you think about it.
Of course, our esteemed host has the real answer here.
Quote from: Jim HylaNow to jump to an equally ridiculous idea, the Troy Record has an article on RPI-Union playing an outdoor game. (http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2010/01/28/sports/doc4b6124038f828499165216.txt) I'm reading about "the first outdoor AHL game" being played in Syracuse, and I wonder why the Syr Crunch don't spend more time on trying to figure out how to win some games. Polls and outdoor hockey games are similar, they're nice to talk about but they have no meaning.
I wonder how many people who go to minor league hockey games care about who wins. I mean the game, not the fights.
Having been to a lot of minor league baseball games I can safely say that it's spectacle that sells tickets. Sure there are plenty of real fans who care about the sport and follow the game action. The excitement of an outdoor hockey game probably brings in a whole lot of cash.
Quote from: KeithKQuote from: Jim HylaNow to jump to an equally ridiculous idea, the Troy Record has an article on RPI-Union playing an outdoor game. (http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2010/01/28/sports/doc4b6124038f828499165216.txt) I'm reading about "the first outdoor AHL game" being played in Syracuse, and I wonder why the Syr Crunch don't spend more time on trying to figure out how to win some games. Polls and outdoor hockey games are similar, they're nice to talk about but they have no meaning.
I wonder how many people who go to minor league hockey games care about who wins. I mean the game, not the fights.
Having been to a lot of minor league baseball games I can safely say that it's spectacle that sells tickets. Sure there are plenty of real fans who care about the sport and follow the game action. The excitement of an outdoor hockey game probably brings in a whole lot of cash.
Read the Record article, only if you get a whole lot of underwriting.
Quote from: Jim Hylaor, to say it another way, who cares, why do you care?
I don't care that much, but I'll be honest and admit that I do care a little. Why? Well, mainly because when I'm talking to (or these days Facebooking with) old Cornell friends, some of whom are the most casual of Cornell hockey fans, being able to say, "We're ranked fifth in the country", gets their attention, and gets them excited about following Cornell hockey, even if it's just for a little while. To a casual fan, a national ranking in the top 10 is one pretty simple way to understand that Cornell is doing well.
Quote from: andyw2100So...in the USA Today poll, Cornell drops from 7th to 8th for splitting with the 6th place team,and the 6th place team moves up to 4th for splitting with the 7th place team? How does that make sense?
OK, you're making it seem like all the pollsters go into the same room and as a block decide where to slot teams depending on what happened the previous week. It's a lot more random than that. The polls are determined by assigning point values to each slot and totaling the points. Some voters could've had us #3, and some could have us at #14 for all we know. Maybe we landed high or low last week due to something else... Some voters might actually take a careful look at the results & statistics from last week, and some may scribble down names on a napkin at last call depending on how teams "feel" to them. Maybe one voter took all the 5-loss teams and listed them in reverse alphabetical order...who knows? Actually looking at the point totals tell us something as well...look at how there's a tight bunching between 6-8 in USCHO. You're also putting our results in a vacuum. Other teams played and there's a bit of interconnectedness in it all.
And yeah,
blah blah blah
It's also about that time of year when the pollsters start to put some stock in the PWR and/or KRACH, and our poll position will suffer predictably. Frankly, I'm surprised we've stayed so high so long given the entire season's body of work.
Quote from: RobbIt's also about that time of year when the pollsters start to put some stock in the PWR and/or KRACH, and our poll position will suffer predictably. Frankly, I'm surprised we've stayed so high so long given the entire season's body of work.
We've stayed so high all year because we have been annointed a "top program" by the collective college hockey world. (Or at least a quality program.) This makes me happy.
Quote from: Jim HylaQuote from: KeithKQuote from: Jim HylaNow to jump to an equally ridiculous idea, the Troy Record has an article on RPI-Union playing an outdoor game. (http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2010/01/28/sports/doc4b6124038f828499165216.txt) I'm reading about "the first outdoor AHL game" being played in Syracuse, and I wonder why the Syr Crunch don't spend more time on trying to figure out how to win some games. Polls and outdoor hockey games are similar, they're nice to talk about but they have no meaning.
I wonder how many people who go to minor league hockey games care about who wins. I mean the game, not the fights.
Having been to a lot of minor league baseball games I can safely say that it's spectacle that sells tickets. Sure there are plenty of real fans who care about the sport and follow the game action. The excitement of an outdoor hockey game probably brings in a whole lot of cash.
Read the Record article, only if you get a whole lot of underwriting.
OK, fair enough. Putting together a temporary outside rink isn't cheap. However, the point still stands that those who run minor league sports usually put a lot of focus on spectacle formarketing rather than wins and losses.
Besides, to what extent do the proprieters of the Syracuse Crunch actually have a say in the wins and losses side? They're an AHL affiliate so I assume that most of their players (their good ones anyway) are provided by the big club. Maybe the coach too? To which one could reply, maybe they should look into getting a better parent club than the Blue Jackets.
Quote from: KeithKQuote from: Jim HylaQuote from: KeithKQuote from: Jim HylaNow to jump to an equally ridiculous idea, the Troy Record has an article on RPI-Union playing an outdoor game. (http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2010/01/28/sports/doc4b6124038f828499165216.txt) I'm reading about "the first outdoor AHL game" being played in Syracuse, and I wonder why the Syr Crunch don't spend more time on trying to figure out how to win some games. Polls and outdoor hockey games are similar, they're nice to talk about but they have no meaning.
I wonder how many people who go to minor league hockey games care about who wins. I mean the game, not the fights.
Having been to a lot of minor league baseball games I can safely say that it's spectacle that sells tickets. Sure there are plenty of real fans who care about the sport and follow the game action. The excitement of an outdoor hockey game probably brings in a whole lot of cash.
Read the Record article, only if you get a whole lot of underwriting.
OK, fair enough. Putting together a temporary outside rink isn't cheap. However, the point still stands that those who run minor league sports usually put a lot of focus on spectacle formarketing rather than wins and losses.
Besides, to what extent do the proprieters of the Syracuse Crunch actually have a say in the wins and losses side? They're an AHL affiliate so I assume that most of their players (their good ones anyway) are provided by the big club. Maybe the coach too? To which one could reply, maybe they should look into getting a better parent club than the Blue Jackets.
That's exactly why the Syracuse Chiefs left Toronto and signed with Washington. ::screwy::But they did do better last year. Not enough to get me to go to a game though.
Quote from: andyw2100So...in the USA Today poll, Cornell drops from 7th to 8th for splitting with the 6th place team,and the 6th place team moves up to 4th for splitting with the 7th place team? How does that make sense?
The USCHO poll is much more reasonable, with both Cornell and UND moving up a spot.
I know these are polls,and trying to understand the logic behind them is silly, but this oddness just really jumped out at me, and I had to vent. Figured this was the right place.
The analysis on this thread is all in a Cornell - No. Dakota vacuum, forgetting the fact that there are other teams and other results. In the USCHO poll, we were behind Colorado College and Ferris State last week. They both also split games this weekend, but as their splits weren't as impressive to some voters as ours was, we passed them both. CC and Ferris State were already behind us in the USA Today poll. In both polls, St. Cloud and Bemidji moved ahead of us with their sweeps and UMD dropped behind us, being swept by Bemidji. Hence, up one spot for USCHO and down one for USA Today.
Of course, Age's point that we shouldn't have an expectation of the polls being meaningful is also valid.
And, the only ranking that really matters in the end is PWR.
Quote from: Jim HylaQuote from: CowbellGuyWHAT?! Polls don't make sense?! The very foundation of my being has been shattered by this revelation! I'm going to go sit quietly in
the corner for a bit to contemplate this.
or, to say it another way, who cares, why do you care?
Now to jump to an equally ridiculous idea, the Troy Record has an article on RPI-Union playing an outdoor game. (http://www.troyrecord.com/articles/2010/01/28/sports/doc4b6124038f828499165216.txt) I'm reading about "the first outdoor AHL game" being played in Syracuse, and I wonder why the Syr Crunch don't spend more time on trying to figure out how to win some games. Polls and outdoor hockey games are similar, they're nice to talk about but they have no meaning.
Ed Weaver is a very nice man who occasionally writes cogent articles. Not even close on this issue. Why would cash strapped RPI or anyone else in the Capital District consider wasting money on a second rate outdoor rink?today's Times Union (http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=894730)
Quote from: KeithKWe've stayed so high all year because we have been annointed a "top program" by the collective college hockey world. (Or at least a quality program.) This makes me happy.
Probably. It could be the consensus of voters who have seen us play is that we're legitimately a strong team. But Occam's Razor suggests voters are lazy and ignorant and just parrot back the rankings of other years, with minor adjustments for current record.
Quote from: TrotskyQuote from: KeithKWe've stayed so high all year because we have been annointed a "top program" by the collective college hockey world. (Or at least a quality program.) This makes me happy.
Probably. It could be the consensus of voters who have seen us play is that we're legitimately a strong team. But Occam's Razor suggests voters are lazy and ignorant and just parrot back the rankings of other years, with minor adjustments for current record.
Certainly true in lacrosse.