As was noted earlier, even with our reduced expectations, what happened at Penn was at the low end of possibilities.
What happens next? Has the death watch begun on the coaching staff? This is a sad time for Cornell football. It could have been a 4-6 and maybe 5-5 season, not 2-8. It also could have been 1-9; the Yale game was no runaway.
Most of all, I don't get why in five decades of Ivy League football, Cornell has managed three ties for the title and no outright wins when the law of averages says we should have won six or seven times. Sigh.
It's hard to watch Coach Knowles's Preview interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_0-AI7vy4A&feature=channel) of the Penn game and not get the impression that he's lying through his teeth and not deluded about his team's chances.
Quote from: billhowardMost of all, I don't get why in five decades of Ivy League football, Cornell has managed three ties for the title and no outright wins when the law of averages says we should have won six or seven times. Sigh.
Ask the same question about Ivy basketball pre-2007.
Quote from: RichHQuote from: billhowardMost of all, I don't get why in five decades of Ivy League football, Cornell has managed three ties for the title and no outright wins when the law of averages says we should have won six or seven times. Sigh.
Ask the same question about Ivy basketball pre-2007.
The coach makes the difference; I hope the AD can see that.
Exactly right, over the last 8 seasons Donahue has been here the teams overall and conference record for the most part had a steady improvement every year, Knowles has produced the opposite result with some initial improvement but a decline over the last 4 years
Knowles is a great guy, but I think it's time for him to go. As pointed out by others, this is not a Donahue situation. Donahue's teams boosted their win total and Ivy win totals every year. The teams were clearly getting better (albeit slowly at times/slower than we might've wanted). Cornell football continues to get worse. I think it's time for a change at the top. It's a buyer's market now for talent with the economy in such bad shape.
PRINCETON just fired their coach. I'm not sure that Knowles can survive this disaster. That said, I don't want to treat Cornell football to be anything like Notre Dame football. Cornell is doing so well in so many sports, a down couple of years in football isn't the end of the world. If the players are graduating on time I'm not going to sweat it if he gets another year or two to figure it out.
Quote from: ugartePRINCETON just fired their coach.
Yale's first-year coach may feel a bit of heat after his Belichick-like play call in yesterday's edition of "The Game." With two-and-a-half minutes to go in the game, leading 10-7, and with fourth and
22 on Yale's 25-yard line, he called for a fake punt to go for the first down. It failed, Harvard took over on Yale's 40, and scored the winning touchdown two or three plays later.
http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/11/22/sports/22-solomon.txt
Quote from: ugartePRINCETON just fired their coach. I'm not sure that Knowles can survive this disaster. That said, I don't want to treat Cornell football to be anything like Notre Dame football. Cornell is doing so well in so many sports, a down couple of years in football isn't the end of the world. If the players are graduating on time I'm not going to sweat it if he gets another year or two to figure it out.
I won't sweat it either, I didn't this year; but I also didn't go to any games and I've been a season ticket holder for 30+ years. I'm sure there are many more like me.
Quote from: Al DeFlorioQuote from: ugartePRINCETON just fired their coach.
Yale's first-year coach may feel a bit of heat after his Belichick-like play call in yesterday's edition of "The Game." With two-and-a-half minutes to go in the game, leading 10-7, and with fourth and 22 on Yale's 25-yard line, he called for a fake punt to go for the first down. It failed, Harvard took over on Yale's 40, and scored the winning touchdown two or three plays later.
http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/11/22/sports/22-solomon.txt
Must be something in that New England air.(Yes I know they played in Indy.) Have you felt it yet?
Quote from: Al DeFlorioQuote from: ugartePRINCETON just fired their coach.
Yale's first-year coach may feel a bit of heat after his Belichick-like play call in yesterday's edition of "The Game." With two-and-a-half minutes to go in the game, leading 10-7, and with fourth and 22 on Yale's 25-yard line, he called for a fake punt to go for the first down. It failed, Harvard took over on Yale's 40, and scored the winning touchdown two or three plays later.
http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/11/22/sports/22-solomon.txt
I'm all for taking potshots and Belichick, but these two decisions aren't even close to comparable.
Quote from: ugartePRINCETON just fired their coach.
Northeastern took it one step further and just dropped the program. Of course, they were relative newbies to the game.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gVNG_ZOmPYr_i8rUZlnR2f-knbSQD9C57VR01
Soooooo.....Is Knowles record better than the Princeton coach?::wtf::
Quote from: TimVSoooooo.....Is Knowles record better than the Princeton coach?::wtf::
Hughes was 47-52 overall, according to the "relieved of duties" article on the Princeton athletics site, with a 9-1 season (only loss to...Cornell!) and Ivy championship in 2006 the high point. Only three winning seasons in ten.
Quote from: TimVSoooooo.....Is Knowles record better than the Princeton coach?::wtf::
Thanks Al.
(Answers own question) No. Princeton Coach: 47% overall for ten seasons. Cornell coach: 43% overall 38% Ivy for six seasons.::help::
Quote from: TimVSoooooo.....Is Knowles record better than the Princeton coach?::wtf::
I suspected not; that was my point.
Quote from: ugarteQuote from: TimVSoooooo.....Is Knowles record better than the Princeton coach?::wtf::
I suspected not; that was my point.
I thought your point was to give him a couple more seasons. Maybe we can get to the point where per game attendance falls below hockey. Or maybe even Wrestling.::scream::
Quote from: TimVQuote from: ugarteQuote from: TimVSoooooo.....Is Knowles record better than the Princeton coach?::wtf::
I suspected not; that was my point.
I thought your point was to give him a couple more seasons. Maybe we can get to the point where per game attendance falls below hockey. Or maybe even Wrestling.::scream::
Well, I was making two points. The first being that I am sure he is on thin ice because a more successful coach just got fired. The second was that I don't want Cornell to be the kind of place that only looks at win%. I'd understand if he got fired, and I wouldn't even be all that upset, but I wouldn't complain if he were given a few more years, no.
Quote from: ugarteQuote from: TimVQuote from: ugarteQuote from: TimVSoooooo.....Is Knowles record better than the Princeton coach?::wtf::
I suspected not; that was my point.
I thought your point was to give him a couple more seasons. Maybe we can get to the point where per game attendance falls below hockey. Or maybe even Wrestling.::scream::
Well, I was making two points. The first being that I am sure he is on thin ice because a more successful coach just got fired. The second was that I don't want Cornell to be the kind of place that only looks at win%. I'd understand if he got fired, and I wouldn't even be all that upset, but I wouldn't complain if he were given a few more years, no.
What else would you look at beside win percentage? C'mon...it's not like we have a problem with people leaving early for the NFL or not graduating. It's all about the wins and losses. As I've said numerous times on this board, he's a great guy, a nice guy and had some early success. That said - it's time for him to go. This is a business - he's not winning, he should be out. It's not like he's packing the stadium and losing. The stadium's empty and the team is awful to watch - really just no fun to go to games of recent. Enough of this touchy-feely it's not about wins and losses bullcrap. This is sports. Play to win. He's had his shot and despite his best efforts unfortunately failed. Time for him to step aside and give someone else a chance.
Quote from: CUontheslopesQuote from: ugarteQuote from: TimVQuote from: ugarteQuote from: TimVSoooooo.....Is Knowles record better than the Princeton coach?::wtf::
I suspected not; that was my point.
I thought your point was to give him a couple more seasons. Maybe we can get to the point where per game attendance falls below hockey. Or maybe even Wrestling.::scream::
Well, I was making two points. The first being that I am sure he is on thin ice because a more successful coach just got fired. The second was that I don't want Cornell to be the kind of place that only looks at win%. I'd understand if he got fired, and I wouldn't even be all that upset, but I wouldn't complain if he were given a few more years, no.
What else would you look at beside win percentage? C'mon...it's not like we have a problem with people leaving early for the NFL or not graduating. It's all about the wins and losses. As I've said numerous times on this board, he's a great guy, a nice guy and had some early success. That said - it's time for him to go. This is a business - he's not winning, he should be out. It's not like he's packing the stadium and losing. The stadium's empty and the team is awful to watch - really just no fun to go to games of recent. Enough of this touchy-feely it's not about wins and losses bullcrap. This is sports. Play to win. He's had his shot and despite his best efforts unfortunately failed. Time for him to step aside and give someone else a chance.
Well, it is a business but it is mostly a SCHOOL. If he is at the end of his contract then I could see not renewing him. If he isn't, I can't see eating the balance.
Quote from: ugarteQuote from: CUontheslopesQuote from: ugarteQuote from: TimVQuote from: ugarteQuote from: TimVSoooooo.....Is Knowles record better than the Princeton coach?::wtf::
I suspected not; that was my point.
I thought your point was to give him a couple more seasons. Maybe we can get to the point where per game attendance falls below hockey. Or maybe even Wrestling.::scream::
Well, I was making two points. The first being that I am sure he is on thin ice because a more successful coach just got fired. The second was that I don't want Cornell to be the kind of place that only looks at win%. I'd understand if he got fired, and I wouldn't even be all that upset, but I wouldn't complain if he were given a few more years, no.
What else would you look at beside win percentage? C'mon...it's not like we have a problem with people leaving early for the NFL or not graduating. It's all about the wins and losses. As I've said numerous times on this board, he's a great guy, a nice guy and had some early success. That said - it's time for him to go. This is a business - he's not winning, he should be out. It's not like he's packing the stadium and losing. The stadium's empty and the team is awful to watch - really just no fun to go to games of recent. Enough of this touchy-feely it's not about wins and losses bullcrap. This is sports. Play to win. He's had his shot and despite his best efforts unfortunately failed. Time for him to step aside and give someone else a chance.
Well, it is a business but it is mostly a SCHOOL. If he is at the end of his contract then I could see not renewing him. If he isn't, I can't see eating the balance.
I can. I'm a season ticket holder who didn't go to a game this year. It wasn't worth the gas to get there. Yes there were a couple of games that I wanted to go to, mainly to see friends; but I couldn't. However I wasn't going to go to the others just to see misery.
Yes, we're a SCHOOL, and SCHOOLS are supposedly striving for excellence; WE ARE NOT!
Quote from: Jim HylaYes, we're a SCHOOL, and SCHOOLS are supposedly striving for excellence; WE ARE NOT!
If only we could get a "Bitch-Carroll" to coach at Cornell: smart enough to defeat the rest of the league with ease, but retarded enough to want to coach Ivy League football.
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: Jim HylaYes, we're a SCHOOL, and SCHOOLS are supposedly striving for excellence; WE ARE NOT!
If only we could get a "Bitch-Carroll" to coach at Cornell: smart enough to defeat the rest of the league with ease, but retarded enough to want to coach Ivy League football.
Well, we did have someone close to that once, he just had Clintonitis.::wank::
And what's with the pix?
Quote from: Jim HylaWell, we did have someone close to that once, he just had Clintonitis.::wank::
You're going to have to explain this one to me.
QuoteAnd what's with the pix?
The avatar? Me on board the Kruzenshtern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruzenshtern_%28ship%29) when it was moored up in Boston earlier this year. I just happened to be wearing my Cornell hockey t-shirt and hat.
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: Jim HylaWell, we did have someone close to that once, he just had Clintonitis.::wank::
You're going to have to explain this one to me.
Well Maxie Baughan was the closest to a good coach who seemed to enjoy just being in the Ivy League. Of course the reason he wanted to stay in Ithaca may have had more to do with extracurricular affairs than football.
QuoteQuoteAnd what's with the pix?
The avatar? Me on board the Kruzenshtern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruzenshtern_%28ship%29) when it was moored up in Boston earlier this year. I just happened to be wearing my Cornell hockey t-shirt and hat.
I should have been nicer in my question, I like it.
Well I just noticed we've gotten 6 on the All-Ivy teams. By quick count that's 6 out of 91.::cuss::
Quote from: Jim HylaWell Maxie Baughan was the closest to a good coach who seemed to enjoy just being in the Ivy League. Of course the reason he wanted to stay in Ithaca may have had more to do with extracurricular affairs than football.
Ah, found this: http://www.nytimes.com/1989/04/28/sports/sports-people-football-cornell-picks-coach.html
That explains it. :-)
QuoteI should have been nicer in my question, I like it.
Thank you. I didn't read your response snarkily: I just wasn't sure if that's what you were referring to.
Quote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: Jim HylaWell Maxie Baughan was the closest to a good coach who seemed to enjoy just being in the Ivy League. Of course the reason he wanted to stay in Ithaca may have had more to do with extracurricular affairs than football.
Ah, found this: http://www.nytimes.com/1989/04/28/sports/sports-people-football-cornell-picks-coach.html
That explains it. :-)
Yeah, I guess I should have explained it more. I forget not everyone is as old as me.
Quote from: Jim HylaQuote from: Kyle RoseQuote from: Jim HylaWell Maxie Baughan was the closest to a good coach who seemed to enjoy just being in the Ivy League. Of course the reason he wanted to stay in Ithaca may have had more to do with extracurricular affairs than football.
Ah, found this: http://www.nytimes.com/1989/04/28/sports/sports-people-football-cornell-picks-coach.html
That explains it. :-)
Yeah, I guess I should have explained it more. I forget not everyone is as old as me.
Hey, I even remember when "Laine [sic] Kennedy" was playing.
In a related note to the football coaching situation:
Marc Trestman, a finalist for the Cornell coaching position last time around, is now head coach of the Montreal Alouettes, who won the Grey Cup this weekend.
http://cornellsun.com/node/10751
Quote from: jkahnIn a related note to the football coaching situation:
Marc Trestman, a finalist for the Cornell coaching position last time around, is now head coach of the Montreal Alouettes, who won the Grey Cup this weekend.
http://cornellsun.com/node/10751
Well, Giants' fans are constantly bitching about Kevin Gilbride's play calling. Pretty similar to the harping about our offense this past year (albeit on an entirely different level).
Quote from: scoop85Quote from: jkahnIn a related note to the football coaching situation:
Marc Trestman, a finalist for the Cornell coaching position last time around, is now head coach of the Montreal Alouettes, who won the Grey Cup this weekend.
http://cornellsun.com/node/10751
Well, Giants' fans are constantly bitching about Kevin Gilbride's Kildrive's play calling. Pretty similar to the harping about our offense this past year (albeit on an entirely different level).
FYP.
"Cornell Stands Firmly Behind Knowles"
http://www.theithacajournal.com/article/20091209/SPORTS03/912090367/1124/sports03/Cornell+stands+firmly+behind+Knowles
Quote from: Andy NoelWe support Jim Knowles completely, ... He's working extremely hard to find the variables to help him turn everything around. He really does have enormous support.
2 years left on the contract? That explains why he has Andy's full support.
Quote from: imafrshmn"Cornell Stands Firmly Behind Knowles"
http://www.theithacajournal.com/article/20091209/SPORTS03/912090367/1124/sports03/Cornell+stands+firmly+behind+Knowles
Quote from: Andy NoelWe support Jim Knowles completely, ... He's working extremely hard to find the variables to help him turn everything around. He really does have enormous support.
How depressing.::cuss:: Two more years of "misery."::pissed::
Best line from the story: "Knowles declined comment on whether changes to his staff are pending.
He did say that he is looking at changing the way Cornell's offensive system works." Doh!::idea::
Quote from: Noel"We support our athletes and our coaching staff and we support our head coach," he said. "In the years since 1956, we've shared three titles and never have won an outright Ivy League football championship. I'd say hundreds of Cornell alumni and friends of our program would really like to see that happen. They're very supportive.
"It's a marathon and not a sprint. We will not give up and will keep working hard toward that goal."
The problem is that most people don't take more than 6 years to complete a marathon. How disappointing a decision.
Quote from: Jim HylaQuote from: Noel"We support our athletes and our coaching staff and we support our head coach," he said. "In the years since 1956, we've shared three titles and never have won an outright Ivy League football championship. I'd say hundreds of Cornell alumni and friends of our program would really like to see that happen. They're very supportive.
"It's a marathon and not a sprint. We will not give up and will keep working hard toward that goal."
I think that's pretty telling as well. We have literally hundreds of fans! Maybe if there were thousands, there might be a little more urgency. Of course, maybe if there weren't so much complacency about losing (3-3 against columbia including two straight losses)?), there'd be more than hundreds....
Steve Donahue turned the basketball program around in 6 years. Jim Knowles has solidified the football program's lower division position with no legitimate hope for the future. Two more years of these recruiting classes plus knowles coaching means at least 4 years before there's much chance of success under a new staff.
Quote from: Chris '03Quote from: Jim HylaQuote from: Noel"We support our athletes and our coaching staff and we support our head coach," he said. "In the years since 1956, we've shared three titles and never have won an outright Ivy League football championship. I'd say hundreds of Cornell alumni and friends of our program would really like to see that happen. They're very supportive.
"It's a marathon and not a sprint. We will not give up and will keep working hard toward that goal."
I think that's pretty telling as well. We have literally hundreds of fans! Maybe if there were thousands, there might be a little more urgency. Of course, maybe if there weren't so much complacency about losing (3-3 against columbia including two straight losses)?), there'd be more than hundreds....
Steve Donahue turned the basketball program around in 6 years. Jim Knowles has solidified the football program's lower division position with no legitimate hope for the future. Two more years of these recruiting classes plus knowles coaching means at least 4 years before there's much chance of success under a new staff.
A way for Cornell to claw its way back to competitiveness? Tennessee seems to do a good job recruiting HS players via its hostess program, as indicated by this story and photo in Sports Illustrated (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/andy_staples/12/11/tennessee-recruiting/index.html). Story mentions with a mostly straight face that "The above photo, taken by SI.com after the game, shows Earps and Johnson [star HS players] violated the letter of the NCAA rule against contact by a representative of the university's athletics interest, which the NCAA considers a secondary violation."
Penn just canned its basketball coach: http://www.theithacajournal.com/article/20091214/SPORTS03/912140354/1128/Sports/Penn-gives-quick-hook-to-men-s-basketball-coach
Will Donahue interview again?
Quote from: Al DeFlorioPenn just canned its basketball coach: http://www.theithacajournal.com/article/20091214/SPORTS03/912140354/1128/Sports/Penn-gives-quick-hook-to-men-s-basketball-coach
Will Donahue interview again?
You would hope not given the success he's had in Ithaca and the position he has the program in for the next several years. He would obviously love to be back in Philly but it seems he'd be better off waiting for an offer from a school that's more a step up than Penn would be. Another Ivy title and more than just other Ivies will be knocking on the door. A slight upgrade to Penn would mean at least a few years to get his own guys in and start winning titles again before he could be in the same position to jump higher he's arguably in now.
Good point. Given what Donahue has done in Ithaca, Penn would be a fractional change. The best one can hope for in the Ivies is to make it to the second round before heading to the exit. Or with luck the round of sixteen. That Penn team that made the final four may be a genetic quirk.
Yeah I would think Donahue is gone at the end of the season, if they win the Ivy again, especially if they win a first round game. He should leave at that point, probably would never get this program to a higher point than that. One school that might go after him would be Fordham who fired their coach earlier in the season. This would be a nice step up considering Fordham is in the A10.
The interesting thing will be who Andy decides to hire, does he promote an assistant or do we look elsewhere. Nat Graham is in his fifth year as an assistant here. It is a shame Spiker was hired at the beginning of this year to Army since he seems to be doing a great job there this year as they are 7-2 with a quality win over Harvard. Army has not had a winning season since the 80's I believe.
Would that there are more Pete Carril types who are happy with a lifetime tenure in the Ivy League (and who keep winning).