ELynah Forum

Hello Season Ticket Holders,

Cornell University promotes good sportsmanship and has zero tolerance for any profanity, racial/sexist comments, or other intimidating actions at intercollegiate athletic events.  The penalty for violating this policy is expulsion from the game and revocation of season tickets. There are no verbal warnings or second chances given for violation of this policy.

Furthermore, the band will not be permitted to play "Gary Glitter" at Cornell men's ice hockey games if students continue to chant a profane version of "Rough 'em up, rough 'em up, go CU."

Thank you for your cooperation in promoting good sportsmanship and in creating an inviting atmosphere (no profane language) in Lynah Rink.

GO BIG RED!

[quote amerks127]Hello Season Ticket Holders,

Cornell University promotes good sportsmanship and has zero tolerance for any profanity, racial/sexist comments, or other intimidating actions at intercollegiate athletic events.  The penalty for violating this policy is expulsion from the game and revocation of season tickets. There are no verbal warnings or second chances given for violation of this policy.

Furthermore, the band will not be permitted to play "Gary Glitter" at Cornell men's ice hockey games if students continue to chant a profane version of "Rough 'em up, rough 'em up, go CU."

Thank you for your cooperation in promoting good sportsmanship and in creating an inviting atmosphere (no profane language) in Lynah Rink.

GO BIG RED![/quote]

Wow - I had no idea it was October.  I simply must go and check my calendar...  ::screwy::

Ok.. let me ask this.. when was the last time they fired someone from day hall when they swore out loud at the computer because the thing didnt act as expected?

I also expect that cornell no longer promotes playing any movies at its cinemas that promote use of foul language.

and any player who gets caught swearing in a game should get expelled.

and does this go for the ushers\\police as well who violate the polices

and wouldnt all the chants be counted as intimdating actions? or any cheering at all in a loud manner?

My reply to this email was:

"Go 'rough' yourselves."

Perhaps we can all do the same.

Presumably, parents don't bring their children to movies that contain foul language if they don't want their children to hear it.  Similarly, vice presidents in Day Hall don't normally have children in their offices when they curse out a computer.  A hockey game is still a family event.

I use profanity all the time, I just don't do it in hockey games.  And I think that the inability to enjoy a hockey game - to chant, sing, or shout in support of your team - without using profanity is a pretty sad failure of imagination.  In any event, you've been warned, so it's not like you can say you didn't know.

That having been said, I do think that Coach Schafer should be held to the same standard, and I hear him curse loudly from the bench on a regular basis.  He should be the example, not the exception.

[quote Beeeej]I hear him curse loudly from the bench on a regular basis[/quote]Canadians recognize a different set of swear words.

Fire Andy.

Well hopefully Andy won't make the band stop playing it, but either way, it would seem fairly easy for the Faithful to simply sing the entire song a capella.

Fire Andy.

Nothing in that letter indicates they won't be permitted to play Gonna Fly Now.

Fire Andy.

[quote Beeeej]That having been said, I do think that Coach Schafer should be held to the same standard, and I hear him curse loudly from the bench on a regular basis.  He should be the example, not the exception.[/quote]I thought he was always yelling about some sort of seafaring vessel on which animals of the species equus caballus are transported.

Um, was the band appraised of this "condition" before the email went out?  Did they agree?  And, as Jordan brought up, what exactly is to keep the entire student section from singing it (other than it falling apart from tempo problems)?

The band doesn't have to agree - they play at the pleasure of the Athletic Department, so they will do what the AD says.

[quote amerks127]Furthermore, the band will not be permitted to play "Gary Glitter" at Cornell men's ice hockey games if students continue to chant a profane version of "Rough 'em up, rough 'em up, go CU."[/quote]

Note that the fact that the artist is a convicted pedophile doesn't bother anybody. ::rolleyes::

[quote Robb]The band doesn't have to agree - they play at the pleasure of the Athletic Department, so they will do what the AD says.[/quote]
Not agreeing might carry consequences, but that doesn't mean they have to agree.  I'm more curious if they were contacted beforehand that this condition was made.

[quote Give My Regards][quote amerks127]Furthermore, the band will not be permitted to play "Gary Glitter" at Cornell men's ice hockey games if students continue to chant a profane version of "Rough 'em up, rough 'em up, go CU."[/quote]

Note that the fact that the artist is a convicted pedophile doesn't bother anybody. ::rolleyes::[/quote]
Not at all.  Why should it?

This sounds like another one of Matt Coats' (everyone's favorite douchetard) plans to purify Lynah.  At the games after break, he posted signs at every entrance stating:

Profanity
=
Ejection

as well as the disclaimer on the back of the ticket. Apparently, athletics hasn't quite discovered how to do landscape printing as of 2009.  

If they want to get rid of the word fuck, whatever. But they shouldn't use the band as leverage against the rest of the fans.

Ruck 'em up, ruck 'em up, Go CU

The band was informed of this situation the same time everyone else was.

If athletics decides that we have to stop playing Gary Glitter, we don't really have a choice. Athletics provides us with tickets to every game (hockey, basketball, lacrosse, etc.) and allows us time to play too. The band has little to no bargaining power when it comes to something like this.

The only real way to save the tradition of playing this song, is for people not to say fuck and/or athletics dropping the threat of banning it.

What's the big deal about having to say "Rough 'em up?"  I have been shouting that at games for years.  I often still think "F 'em up" in my head while I am saying it.  There is no reason to say "F 'em up" other than to satisfy your own ego that you are going against the "establishment".  Hockey games are loud and energetic, but they are still family events.

I am going to be pretty pissed if the band gets shut down from playing Gary Glitter just because some fans feel they have to make a point. (and an invalid point at that)

I don't think there's a big deal about saying rough as opposed to fuck, just the manner in which Athletics is going about it.

There was a time when the band was threatened with being kicked out of Lynah if they assisted in any cheer that involved the word 'sucks'. So no black hole or cheer.

Instead of enforcing it individually as they used to do (with specially trained ushers who could read lips), they place the burden of good behavior on the band. If athletics decides screw is all of a sudden profane or asking someone to kill someone is intimidating, will the band not be allowed to play Screw BU or Hey Bâby?

This is all that I have to add...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEhfydhSXBg&feature=related

[quote fatchance72]The band was informed of this situation the same time everyone else was.

If athletics decides that we have to stop playing Gary Glitter, we don't really have a choice. Athletics provides us with tickets to every game (hockey, basketball, lacrosse, etc.) and allows us time to play too. The band has little to no bargaining power when it comes to something like this.

[/quote]

There's always the option of declining Athletics' invitation to play at games if you feel you're being dictated to the point of not enjoying being at the games.

[quote Jordan 04]There's always the option of declining Athletics' invitation to play at games if you feel you're being dictated to the point of not enjoying being at the games.[/quote]
Unfortunately, the "Atlas Shrugged" option is unlikely to be successful in changing any AD minds: they would be perfectly happy to have Cornell play to a silent rink.

[quote fatchance72]The band was informed of this situation the same time everyone else was.[/quote]
That is unfortunate.  For Athletics to dangle the band as leverage, to put it in Tom's words, is a pretty dick thing to do without the band's consent (or even foreknowledge).  I'd say it's a slight to the band that's worth an email of inquiry.

Nothing pisses me off like the band being punished for the actions of others, and letting Athletics make that condition without question doesn't sit right with me.

[quote fatchance72]If athletics decides that we have to stop playing Gary Glitter, we don't really have a choice. Athletics provides us with tickets to every game (hockey, basketball, lacrosse, etc.) and allows us time to play too. The band has little to no bargaining power when it comes to something like this.

The only real way to save the tradition of playing this song, is for people not to say fuck and/or athletics dropping the threat of banning it.[/quote]
I'm going to respectfully disagree on a few points here.  As I said before, the band does have a choice, though those choices come with consequences.  And the band does have bargaining power: namely, their presence.

In 2005, during my term as pepband manager, there was an incident involving one of the marching band's buses.  Among other things, the punishment was for the marching band to sit out the next roadtrip--a decision the AD immediately retracted when he realized that it would make the school look bad (or weak, or whatever) to have no band there.  I believe that game was televised, which probably helped.  This proves that the presence of the band matters to the AD, if only in an indirect way.

I should say that I think the chances of Athletics actually telling the band not to play Gary Glitter are low.  I think it's probably an empty scare tactic (see also: fish ejection policy).  However, if they do forbid Gary Glitter and the band plays it anyway, what would happen?  Would the band be ejected?  Told to sit out the next game?  How do you think that would go over?

I'm not advocating a revolution here or anything, but in general I would advise the band--in all things--to at least keep "no" open as an option.  "No" can give you power.

[quote Kyle Rose][quote Jordan 04]There's always the option of declining Athletics' invitation to play at games if you feel you're being dictated to the point of not enjoying being at the games.[/quote]
Unfortunately, the "Atlas Shrugged" option is unlikely to be successful in changing any AD minds: they would be perfectly happy to have Cornell play to a silent rink.[/quote]

That's the obvious consequence that the band would have to decide if they are ok suffering.

Would the AD also like Cornell to not have band support at an NCAA hockey regional?

How about being the only team in the field of 65 (knock on wood) to not have a band on the baseline?

Perhaps the answer to both of those is yes as well. But there is leverage in forcing them to cut their nose to spite their face.

[quote Beeeej]Presumably, parents don't bring their children to movies that contain foul language if they don't want their children to hear it.  Similarly, vice presidents in Day Hall don't normally have children in their offices when they curse out a computer.  A hockey game is still a family event.

I use profanity all the time, I just don't do it in hockey games.  And I think that the inability to enjoy a hockey game - to chant, sing, or shout in support of your team - without using profanity is a pretty sad failure of imagination.  In any event, you've been warned, so it's not like you can say you didn't know.

That having been said, I do think that Coach Schafer should be held to the same standard, and I hear him curse loudly from the bench on a regular basis.  He should be the example, not the exception.[/quote]

yeah.. I sure see a lot of kids not showing up at Pg and pg13 movies..  they go knowing their is a chance of swearing and if they dont want the kids to hear any they dont come.. but they dont know going in how much there will be.   how is this different than the hockey game?  hey i dont swear so it isnt a ban than effects me.. but there is no ban on swearing on the campus so why is there at Lynah? its not like the kids and the townies swear all game long.. is a single cheer than for the most part you cant tell all the words really a big issue..

Ok, I have another thing to add.

When you take your kid to a hockey game, there's a decent chance that he or she is going to see two large men punching each other in the face. There's even the possibility of some blood and someone's teeth getting knocked out. To some people this is offensive.

Knowing what I know about the Ithaca townie population (and all of the peace/anti-war signs), I would imagine that most Ithaca parents would be more upset to have their children see a fight than hear an unintelligible swear word come from the other side of the rink.

I would guess that every member of the band would still want to play at the games even if we weren't allowed to play Gary Glitter. Let's be serious, this is a song. Band members aren't gonna give up their tickets to hockey games over a song. I certainly won't.

But you're missing the point, cth95. My point was that athletics holds significant power over the band, whether we care to admit it or not. In this situation, athletics is choosing to use the band as a tool to help cut down on profanity at Lynah. What athletics doesn't realize is that the majority of the potty-mouthed students at the games are going to curse regardless of whether the band plays Gary Glitter.

But I agree with Lauren. It is unlikely that athletics will ask the band to stop playing the song.

[quote fatchance72]athletics is choosing to use the band as a tool[/quote]
...and really, this is the part I object to.  Whether Gary Glitter is important or not is immaterial compared to this.

One thing that really concerns me about this situation is that I've witnessed rink guards on the D/E boarder routinely throw fans who said "rough" claiming they were using the "inappropriate" version... If they're going to assume that we're cursing just from opening our mouths, all they're going to accomplish is a deterioration in cheering overall and serious negative effect on the atmosphere in Lynah.

[quote Willy '06]When you take your kid to a hockey game, there's a decent chance that he or she is going to see two large men punching each other in the face. There's even the possibility of some blood and someone's teeth getting knocked out. To some people this is offensive.[/quote]
That's actually pretty uncommon at college hockey games. I can't remember the last time players dropped the gloves at Lynah.

I can't believe we are going over this again. What, does it happen every year? Background, when Coach Schafer came he instituted the policy about language at Lynah. Maybe that had something to do with his kids being there, maybe it was, in some small way, a way to atone for his sins? I don't know, but I do completely agree with the policy. Lynah is a great place to take your kids and show some of the fun that can occur at college. I have brought many of my daughter's friends and they have all uniformly enjoyed the experience. Now there are some rinks where I would not be as sure about whether their parents would want me to take them.::cuss::

The fact is that the school, including the hockey administration,  doesn't want this to happen. It's not necessary to enjoy the game, nor to intimidate the visitors; so why does it have to happen? You have a lot of other ways to show your support.::woot::

Now in regards to the way the AD said this, well it's another in a list of insensitive moves. One thinks they, and it's not just Andy Noel, could hire a more sensitive individual, and run these things by them first. Hell (oops) there are probably some who would do it for free. Not that I think it will happen, but I can dream.::idea::

However, the bottom line is: you don't need to do this to have a good time. Let's forget about it and get back to supporting the team and enjoying ourselves, and letting others enjoy it, while we do it.:-P

They were good for a couple fights a season in my days at Lynah 2002-2006. Not many of them escalated too far, but my two strongest memories did. They were Hornby beating the snot out of a guy on UVM and the Nickerson-Varteressian fight in the 2004 playoffs. Neither of those were kid friendly.

F.U. Andy, clap, clap, clap-clap-clap
F.U. Andy, clap, clap, clap-clap-clap
F.U. Andy, clap, clap, clap-clap-clap

[quote fatchance72]
But you're missing the point, cth95. My point was that athletics holds significant power over the band, whether we care to admit it or not. In this situation, athletics is choosing to use the band as a tool to help cut down on profanity at Lynah. What athletics doesn't realize is that the majority of the potty-mouthed students at the games are going to curse regardless of whether the band plays Gary Glitter.
[/quote]

I don't think that I am missing your point.  I definitely think athletics has been too strict at times, and I don't like the band being used to control student behavior.  The fans have been warned to clean up the language numerous times over many years, however.  Since that hasn't worked, I imagine athletics is just trying a new tactic.

I realize that the band is controlled by athletics.  People can disagree with the individuals running athletics and therefore the specifics of the rules placed on the band, but the band does represent the university and they are supported by athletics, so I do not have a problem in principle with the band holding some accountability to the department.

My main point is that I don't understand why so many people get upset when they are not allowed to yell profanities in a public setting.  I think this simply is selfish, childish, and lacks originality. Profanity is not at all necessary to energetically support our team.  If everyone would simply leave out the F-Bombs and the A**holes, athletics would probably leave us alone and we wouldn't have to constantly argue and whine about it.

From what I heard on TV Tuesday, it didn't sound like anyone had trouble expressing their enthusiasm for Obama without swearing.

QuoteI can't believe we are going over this again. What, does it happen every year?

While us alums stay the same, new kids come to campus every year. The institutional memory of a college campus is a pretty fragile thing.



That said, if you really can't figure out a creative way to antagonize the opposing team without resorting to vulgar language, I really have to wonder about the quality of the students that Cornell is accepting these days.

[quote cth95]From what I heard on TV Tuesday, it didn't sound like anyone had trouble expressing their enthusiasm for Obama without swearing.[/quote]

Sounded like Bush was receiving the verbal treatment and hand gestures we reserve for our favorite opponents.  Not sure your analogy is spot on. ;-)

Wow, people are really worked up over this. If AD does this, the faithful will just sing it (without swearing) a capella. It's more fun anyways. And then start a fire Andy chant.

Wish I could be there to start it.

No, we don't need to swear. I don't, and I haven't heard many people more vocal than me in Lynah over the last 2-odd years (though many have been more clever). If athletics is going to suck about this, maybe we should turn our wrath from the opponent to them for a game- let's see how they like my mindless, uncreative droning when it's about them.

It's a mindset- they think we're ruffians and that they can and should control the student section. Given what I've seen personally seen for the last several years and learned on this forum for years back, they have certainly been able to. They've sucked the life out of the fans through a random ticket policy that doesn't reward commitment- and it all starts with commitment. It would be nice to get a concentrated rebuttal of that mentality; otherwise, they will continue to use the fact that institutional memory is transitory and they are there permanently to slowly shape the student section to their ideal.

[quote BMac]Wow, people are really worked up over this. If AD does this, the faithful will just sing it a capella. It's more fun anyways. And then start a fire Andy chant.

Wish I could be there to start it.[/quote]

My thoughts exactly.  And "Go Rough Yourself" would be a good sign idea.

[quote nyc94][quote cth95]From what I heard on TV Tuesday, it didn't sound like anyone had trouble expressing their enthusiasm for Obama without swearing.[/quote]

Sounded like Bush was receiving the verbal treatment and hand gestures we reserve for our favorite opponents.  Not sure your analogy is spot on. ;-)[/quote]

You are probably right.  I didn't hear any profanity, but I did see some pretty poor responses.  At least our fans are only antagonizing opposing hockey players.  No matter what you think about someone's policies, I thought that was really classless to boo and jeer an outgoing President, but that's a totally different topic.

My thougts on this remain the same:  1) you don't need profanity to indimiate the opposition.  2) The AD's office sucks  3) The way some ushers treat the students is appalling.

I have two suggestions:

- Someone needs to ask the AD's office for a list of words which are considered banned, and those which are considered safe.  As people noted, sucks and screw are borderline, and I think the students would seriously like to know where they stand before risking ejection by an overzealous usher.

- It would be interesting to substitute the word "profanity" for every curse word used in the cheers.  For example, try "Aaaaah, see you, profanity!  You goon!" as a method of protest.

Again, my issue is not with the profanity, it's with the behavior of the AD's office.

What does the athletics department think will be the response when it threatens the pep band and fans to be good little boys and girls or else? Talk about counter-productive.

Can't all-too-free-speech proponents recognize that some other fans - townies perhaps, families with children, older fans - may not like swearing in public? Either because they don't like it, or because they find it's sophomoric? This is well put:

[quote mnagowski]... if you really can't figure out a creative way to antagonize the opposing team without resorting to vulgar language, I really have to wonder about the quality of the students that Cornell is accepting these days.[/quote]

The most powerful thing about the Cornell advantage is the mostly packed house at  home and the hundreds of fans in red who show up at road games. It's disconcerting for Princeton or Yale to have the visiting fans controlling the atmosphere. It's wondrous that Fair Harvard would rather have empty seats than visiting Cornellians in those seats.

people think its the students doing all the swearing? sitting in the other side of the rink i dont here much coming from the student side but there is sure alot coming from the townie side.

swearing is accepted in society much more today. that doesnt make it right or wrong. but to worry about the effect on people for 1-2 cheers a game is a little over the edge.

there is much worse being said every time ref blows a call then is said when the band plays..

I've got it!

They should install a button that makes a really loud bleeping sound that drowns out the swears. Andy Noel, Gene Nighman, Matt Coates, whoever... can sit by the button and press it whenever there is any swearing anticipated

That's how they do it on TV.

I think that the reason that the students don't want to give up swearing is because of the lack of consistency and the underhanded tactics that the Athletic Department uses to try to control student behavior. 18-22 year olds don't respond well to that. Maybe if they'd treat the students like adults, the students would respond better (and maybe not).

Instead of a sign saying that you'll be thrown out if you swear, how about a sign with a picture of a 6 year old kid that says:

"This is Billy's first hockey game. He's going to be a Big Red fan for life, but his parents won't bring him to any more games if he keeps learning bad words at the games and repeating them in school. Do you want Billy to be deprived of Big Red Hockey?"

Maybe it's stupid, but I think guilt will go a lot farther than intimidation.

The guilt thing sure works on me, I never use the profane versions of the cheers, but at the football games where I always seem to be surrounded with little kids I have a lot of trouble saying even sucks or hell, it just feels wrong.

Individually, I believe that almost everyone would do the right thing.  When I had my young kids with me at a Princeton game a few years ago, I asked the students around us to say "rough" - they did, and did it so loudly, that there was no chance for my kids to hear what the rest of the section was saying.

I think if you just put young kids in the aisles of the student section, the problem would be solved by itself.

We do this thread every year.

The solution is for the rest of the crowd to boo the 1-in-100 idiots and clubhouse lawyers who insist that dropping the F bomb is their Constitutional right until they shut up.  Shaming is a lost art.

[quote KeithK]That's actually pretty uncommon at college hockey games. I can't remember the last time players dropped the gloves at Lynah.[/quote]"Leeor, cleanup on aisle 6."

What bothered me, and this is going back a couple seasons, was when rink ushers would threaten to toss us for being really loud and not cursing.

A friend and I noticed that a game (we were in D) was a little quiet, I think it was the start of the 2nd period.  So we screamed our head off at the opposing goalie, team, and pretty much everyone in sight.  No cursing.

An usher came over and threatened to toss us out.

It seems that we are the only team that is preoccupied with cursing by fans during games. Maybe this is because of how many times I've encountered the embarassing lack of creativity that is the "Fuck Cornell" chant at Colgate.

[quote Dafatone]What bothered me, and this is going back a couple seasons, was when rink ushers would threaten to toss us for being really loud and not cursing.

A friend and I noticed that a game (we were in D) was a little quiet, I think it was the start of the 2nd period.  So we screamed our head off at the opposing goalie, team, and pretty much everyone in sight.  No cursing.

An usher came over and threatened to toss us out.[/quote]

That's because an attitude of "assume all students are up to no good" is taught, nurtured, and reinforced in the usher training and meetings.  If something noisy and unusual happens in the student sections, they must be up to somethin' and it's their job to go hassle those troublemakers.  It makes me sick, but that's the way it has been for years.

And we have this debate every year because there are people passionate about each side of the issue here, and there's really no way to come to an agreement.  It's polarizing.

Also, I'm a little offended by the suggestion that if a word is uttered by a student that some consider to be vulgar (and who exactly is the judge of that?), then that student is of lower quality than others.  C'mon, with your high-handed smugness.  I assure you that just about every person you have ever admired or thought to be extraordinary has used salty language at some point in their lives...and probably often.  

Frankly, this always reminds me of the TV debate over language.  Who is responsible for parenting the kids?  The broadcast networks?  The Cornell Athletics Department?  It's my opinion that there needs to be more responsible parenting, by talking to the children about certain things.  Explain to them why you don't want them to use some of the words they may hear in this world, because they will hear them.  If not at Lynah, then at the playground or on the street.  Treating a child like a mature, intelligent human being will go farther than throwing a jacket over their head and carrying them out the back door of Lynah hoping that they didn't just hear and will never ever repeat that awful, foul, terrible word!

Disclaimer: yeah, I'm being just as high-handed in the above paragraph as I accused others of being.  Especially since I don't have kids yet.  Meh.  It's an opinion.

Anyway, maybe the Athletics Dept. would get a higher profit if they weren't recruiting and training an army of lip-readers in fear that a naughty word slip out.  And of course, bringing the band into this is weak.

It always annoyed me that athletics cared so much about the townies.  I see the University as a place for students where townies are invited in, not the other way around.  I think the AD and all have sort of forgotten that.

Now, it's true that we should be able to intimidate the opposition without swearing, but I also don't think that dropping the occasional curse (like during Gary Glitter) is a mortal sin.  The users also need to get the hell off their power trip too- when I graduated ('07), they were tossing people who screamed "sucks" and "I hate you" just a little too loudly.  The reason?  Apparently "hate" is a strong word...  I'm so glad they weren't the bouncers at any of the bars around Ithaca.

I refuse to read through another thread about this topic, in which people talk about "rights" and "principles" and similar nonsense. I'd rather debate the HIPAA implications of discussing Davenport's post-RPI injury.

"No cursing" has been a formal policy for more than a decade, IIRC. If Gary Glitter has become a reason for a substantial percentage of the crowd to scream "fuck," Gary Glitter will be a casualty of the policy. I'm surprised that it has taken this long, actually.

Stop saying fuck, you fucking babies.

I'm curious if the same threat was made to basketball ticket holders. The pep band covers both sports and plays Gary Glitter at Newman too.

[quote MB]It always annoyed me that athletics cared so much about the townies.  I see the University as a place for students where townies are invited in, not the other way around.  I think the AD and all have sort of forgotten that.[/quote]So, we forget about your professors and everyone who works at Cornell to keep it running. Forget about people like me, who have been going, and giving, since we were freshman in 1963. In fact, let's throw all of them out of CU and you can teach yourself. After all, as I had posted before it was Coach who wanted the vulgarity gone; maybe we could just not allow his wife and kids in Lynah, that would solve the problem.


Look, it's obviously posts like this that get me going, but we all live in this world together, why can't we just try and have some consideration for others. Just because the athletic department seems inconsiderate, doesn't mean we all have to be.

[quote MB]It always annoyed me that athletics cared so much about the townies.  I see the University as a place for students where townies are invited in, not the other way around.  I think the AD and all have sort of forgotten that.[/quote]Alternately, one might view the university as a community resource for research and advanced scholarship, where undergrads are veal calves to harvest tuition dollars from and otherwise contribute nothing of value.

Opinions vary.

[quote Jim Hyla][quote MB]It always annoyed me that athletics cared so much about the townies.  I see the University as a place for students where townies are invited in, not the other way around.  I think the AD and all have sort of forgotten that.[/quote]So, we forget about your professors and everyone who works at Cornell to keep it running. Forget about people like me, who have been going, and giving, since we were freshman in 1963. In fact, let's throw all of them out of CU and you can teach yourself. After all, as I had posted before it was Coach who wanted the vulgarity gone; maybe we could just not allow his wife and kids in Lynah, that would solve the problem.


Look, it's obviously posts like this that get me going, but we all live in this world together, why can't we just try and have some consideration for others. Just because the athletic department seems inconsiderate, doesn't mean we all have to be.[/quote]

Let's not forget that the townies have been going for 10-20 years or more and paying full price, whereas the students are there for four years at a reduced price (if the SA is still doing that).  I always liked it around 2003-2004 when other students complained that they should take away townie seats so the students had more, despite the fact that the townies would gaurantee to fill every seat pretty much in perpetuity whereas the student section would start to see holes if a couple bad seasons hit.

[quote Trotsky]Alternately, one might view the university as a community resource for research and advanced scholarship, where undergrads are veal calves to harvest tuition dollars from and otherwise contribute nothing of value.[/quote]
I am certain this is the way the University administration views the undergrads.  Whether this is consistent with the University's stated mission or not is up for debate.

Either way, threatening to take away everyone's toys because of the questionable behavior of a minority is a poor way to discipline, even if the students were children, which they are not.

IMO, figure out a way to police the bad behavior without impacting the fun of the rest of the fans, or do nothing.  Collateral damage is something up with which I will not put. ;-)  As a Coach's Club member, I will not continue to financially support a crackdown on student enthusiasm in the name of cracking down on bad behavior.

[quote Jim Hyla]So, we forget about your professors and everyone who works at Cornell to keep it running. Forget about people like me, who have been going, and giving, since we were freshman in 1963. In fact, let's throw all of them out of CU and you can teach yourself. After all, as I had posted before it was Coach who wanted the vulgarity gone; maybe we could just not allow his wife and kids in Lynah, that would solve the problem.


Look, it's obviously posts like this that get me going, but we all live in this world together, why can't we just try and have some consideration for others. Just because the athletic department seems inconsiderate, doesn't mean we all have to be.[/quote]

(http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/images/7/71/Internet_argument.jpg)

If we're going for hyperbole, how about you kick out the students?  I'm sure the lack of tuition dollars (and future alumni donations) will pay the staff's salary for a long time.  You're right about us all needing to live together, but give and take goes both ways.  Students are going to be students no matter what you do.

For the record, I've lived in Ithaca since '88 and my pops is a prof, so don't try accusing me of forgetting about the locals.  What I'm trying to say is that there will always be a disconnect between students and townies, and everyone needs to realize that.  If a student goes to the Hangar (or the chili cook-off, or wine tasting), they shouldn't go wasted and be an ass.  If a local goes to a student game, they shouldn't be offended by someone loudly heckling the goalie using less than pristine language.  Once again, I'm not saying that the students should be swearing left and right, but two f-bombs a game is better than cable TV.  It is how it is, and we'll always have two different worlds.  (Don't even get me started about this whole Collegetown debacle)

Fluff 'em up, Fluff 'em up. Go CU

Well looks like we can't win without fuck.

[quote Tom Tone]Well looks like we can't win without fuck.[/quote]
I dare you to start a "Can't Win Without Fuck" chant tomorrow.

I double dog dare you!

[quote KeithK][quote Tom Tone]Well looks like we can't win without fuck.[/quote]
I dare you to start a "Can't Win Without Fuck" chant tomorrow.

I double dog dare you![/quote]

Do it for a taco?

[quote Tom Tone]Well looks like we can't win without fuck.[/quote]

"We can't jeer you!" ;-)

[quote MB][quote Jim Hyla]So, we forget about your professors and everyone who works at Cornell to keep it running. Forget about people like me, who have been going, and giving, since we were freshman in 1963. In fact, let's throw all of them out of CU and you can teach yourself. After all, as I had posted before it was Coach who wanted the vulgarity gone; maybe we could just not allow his wife and kids in Lynah, that would solve the problem.


Look, it's obviously posts like this that get me going, but we all live in this world together, why can't we just try and have some consideration for others. Just because the athletic department seems inconsiderate, doesn't mean we all have to be.[/quote]

If we're going for hyperbole, how about you kick out the students?  I'm sure the lack of tuition dollars (and future alumni donations) will pay the staff's salary for a long time.  You're right about us all needing to live together, but give and take goes both ways.  Students are going to be students no matter what you do.

For the record, I've lived in Ithaca since '88 and my pops is a prof, so don't try accusing me of forgetting about the locals.  What I'm trying to say is that there will always be a disconnect between students and townies, and everyone needs to realize that.  If a student goes to the Hangar (or the chili cook-off, or wine tasting), they shouldn't go wasted and be an ass.  If a local goes to a student game, they shouldn't be offended by someone loudly heckling the goalie using less than pristine language.  Once again, I'm not saying that the students should be swearing left and right, but two f-bombs a game is better than cable TV.  It is how it is, and we'll always have two different worlds.  (Don't even get me started about this whole Collegetown debacle)[/quote]

All I can say is, WOW.

[quote Jim Hyla]All I can say is, WOW.[/quote]

I could say the exact same thing back to you, but it's obvious you're not getting my point, and I'm not getting yours.  I just think that athletics is overreacting, again, as usual

[quote MB][quote Jim Hyla]All I can say is, WOW.[/quote]

I could say the exact same thing back to you, but it's obvious you're not getting my point, and I'm not getting yours.  I just think that athletics is overreacting, again, as usual[/quote]I do get your point.

Quote from: Jim HylaJust because the athletic department seems inconsiderate, doesn't mean we all have to be.

I totally agree the athletic dept is acting like a bunch of as**s, after all they were the ones who stopped my daughter and her friends, me included, from throwing candy at Lynah. They also stopped the penalty box officials from throwing, but they've been able to restart. So now I just throw it in opposing rinks, and when I'm there and see a certain Associate AD I always toss a Snickers that way. I'm sure they get the point. But although I'll put it as part of my signature, I'm not going to allow that to interfere with my having a good time.


That's my point, these things are small compared to the fun we can all have, and it's ultimately better, I think, to find a way to needle them back while not stooping to their level. This is one time that students could actually act more grown-up than the athletic dept. Why not come up with some particular cheer that shows how stupid and childish they are handling this. We all know they could have done it in a much better manner.

[quote Tom Tone]Well looks like we can't win without fuck.[/quote]

Well, I obviously have to arrange "Rockin' the Suburbs" for the band.

And to think I was just having a conversation over dinner about wasting time reading drivel on the internet.

Schafer, for one is a hypocrite IMO.  He was pretty amused by all th evarious cheers etc when he was an assistant coach and speaking off the record.  Of course it was then Coahc McCutcheon all pissed off about taking his kids to games and the obscenities they had to hear.

Sure things change when you have kids.. but I'd lay a benjamin on the idea that anyone who ever coaches the team has to follow the AD's party line about the cursing.


I find institutional memory to be funny.  IIRC, as I was a pep-band memebr at the time, that we first started playing Gary Glitter at the direct request of the hockey team - which had heard it played in the spring '86 NCAA playoff games they played out at U. Denver and requested it for the next year when they came back.  I don't recall if it was a direct official request or just form one of the band members who knew one of the players and it was informal... but that's the genesis of it.   (Anyone who was a fellow band member at the time correct me if I have confused my tunes here, but I'm quite certain...)

This is a pretty drastic action to take - AD seems to be playing high-stakes poker with this one.  It might clean things up.  It might also suck the energy out of the room when the band doesn't play it.  And if told not to, they won't.  Someone else suggested a cappella would be more fun anyway- Can't say if it would or not, but I am sure that the crowd would certainly do it a cappella in protest-- and good luck teasing out the rough em ups from the fuck em ups.  I don't really see how this can be seen as anything other than a bluff that will be called by anyone who's thinking it through.  I can only wonder what has brought this annual battle to this level of stakes...  Anyone know what has a pole so far up the AD's ass that such an absurd threat shows up?

I'd love to hear a crowd wide a-cappella version of gary glitter that was squeeky clean except calling for the resignation of Andy.  Mocking the man.  He's proving to be one of the *smaller* people I've ever heard of.

[quote Jim Hyla]
This is one time that students could actually act more grown-up than the athletic dept. Why not come up with some particular cheer that shows how stupid and childish they are handling this.[/quote]

Most student fans don't feel as oppressed as the discussion on this thread would lead one to believe.  We are used to email threats, pat downs, and lip readers, and we still have our fun.  Most of us are not aware or don't particularly care about the evolution of Athletics Dept. policies.  The vast majority don't read ELF.  No "asshole," no "fuck," no big deal.

[quote imafrshmn]No "asshole," no "fuck," no big deal.[/quote]

Thank you.  Imafrshmn has the best post and attitude of this entire thread.

[quote cth95][quote imafrshmn]No "asshole," no "fuck," no big deal.[/quote]

Thank you.  Imafrshmn has the best post and attitude of this entire thread.[/quote]

It'd be a terrible attitude for a porn star with a lot of debts, though.

[quote Beeeej][quote cth95][quote imafrshmn]No "asshole," no "fuck," no big deal.[/quote]

Thank you.  Imafrshmn has the best post and attitude of this entire thread.[/quote]

It'd be a terrible attitude for a porn star with a lot of debts, though.[/quote]

New winner for best post and attitude!  :-D

[quote Beeeej][quote cth95][quote imafrshmn]No "asshole," no "fuck," no big deal.[/quote]

Thank you.  Imafrshmn has the best post and attitude of this entire thread.[/quote]

It'd be a terrible attitude for a porn star with a lot of debts, though.[/quote]

My nomination for post of the month!

Yup, Athletics will be happiest when we're all sitting politely in our seats, silently enjoying the game with our hands clasped in our laps.

Just noticed on the CU Athletics Hockey page the warning includes this:

Quote"Fans who do engage in foul language or "curse-like" words, including the use of similar-sounding words or switching sounds from one word to another, are subject to removal of the site of competition.

"Similar-sounding words???"

"Switching sounds from one word to another???"

Come ON!!

Interesting, there is a link that lets you email the message to a friend.  I may have to send a note to my friend jan16@cornell.edu...:-(

[quote TimV]
"Similar-sounding words???"
[/quote]

Can't say the word "puck" anymore in Lynah.

Nor the word "shift".

Quoteswitching sounds from one word to another

What does this even mean?

[quote Jordan 04]

Quoteswitching sounds from one word to another

What does this even mean?[/quote]

"Huck Farvard"

[quote RichH][quote Jordan 04]

Quoteswitching sounds from one word to another

What does this even mean?[/quote]

"Huck Farvard"[/quote]

or "Harvard Sucking Fucks"

Quote"Fans who do engage in foul language or "curse-like" words, including the use of similar-sounding words or switching sounds from one word to another, are subject to removal of the site of competition.

OK, seriously for a minute.  They're banning "curse-like" words now??  That's crossing a line and entering the realm of Thought Police here.  I sanitize my language by substituting curse-like words for actual curses so as not to offend people who either hate cursing at games or have small children.  

So if one screams "Fark!" or "Fudge!" or "Sugar!" or "Crud!" or "Blerg!" to use some generic examples...someone may shout these in the same manner that they might shout out a recognized curse word.  Which of these are OK?  Which aren't?  Why????

This is ridiculous.

[quote RichH]

Quote"Fans who do engage in foul language or "curse-like" words, including the use of similar-sounding words or switching sounds from one word to another, are subject to removal of the site of competition.

OK, seriously for a minute.  They're banning "curse-like" words now??  That's crossing a line and entering the realm of Thought Police here.  I sanitize my language by substituting curse-like words for actual curses so as not to offend people who either hate cursing at games or have small children.  

So if one screams "Fark!" or "Fudge!" or "Sugar!" or "Crud!" or "Blerg!" to use some generic examples...someone may shout these in the same manner that they might shout out a recognized curse word.  Which of these are OK?  Which aren't?  Why????

This is ridiculous.[/quote]

Gosh dang it, that's boat ship. Dandy Joel is a real tadpole.

I would definitely encourage the use of "Blerg," preferably by the entire crowd.

Was there no candyman and no costume for Dave part of our punishment tonight?

A lot of people are less upset about the swearing ban, but rather the fact that Lynah is slowly adopting a police state atmosphere. For the two winter break games, the ushers in A would walk around and stand right behind people, including myself. I can tell you that having that overzealous evil woman from section A standing behind you for 5 minutes really detracts from your ability to enjoy the game. They threw somebody out last night for calling the goalie by his first name. This kind of garbage is unacceptable.

[quote hboss902]They threw somebody out last night for calling the goalie by his first name.[/quote]

If someone can corroborate that (e.g., the victim), I would be very interested to hear about it.

[quote hboss902]A lot of people are less upset about the swearing ban, but rather the fact that Lynah is slowly adopting a police state atmosphere. For the two winter break games, the ushers in A would walk around and stand right behind people, including myself. I can tell you that having that overzealous evil woman from section A standing behind you for 5 minutes really detracts from your ability to enjoy the game. They threw somebody out last night for calling the goalie by his first name. This kind of garbage is unacceptable.[/quote]Which aisle for A?

[quote Chris '03][quote RichH]

Quote"Fans who do engage in foul language or "curse-like" words, including the use of similar-sounding words or switching sounds from one word to another, are subject to removal of the site of competition.

OK, seriously for a minute.  They're banning "curse-like" words now??  That's crossing a line and entering the realm of Thought Police here.  I sanitize my language by substituting curse-like words for actual curses so as not to offend people who either hate cursing at games or have small children.  

So if one screams "Fark!" or "Fudge!" or "Sugar!" or "Crud!" or "Blerg!" to use some generic examples...someone may shout these in the same manner that they might shout out a recognized curse word.  Which of these are OK?  Which aren't?  Why????

This is ridiculous.[/quote]

Gosh dang it, that's boat ship. Dandy Joel is a real tadpole.[/quote]

According to a friend who went to the coach's lunch on Friday, Schafer joked that his kids still think the cheer goes, "Scooby-Doo and Harvard, Too!"

:-D

[quote Robb]
According to a friend who went to the coach's lunch on Friday, Schafer joked that his kids still think the cheer goes, "Scooby-Doo and Harvard, Too!"  :-D[/quote]

When our son was very young, we used to yell:  "Boo BU"   That worked for a very long time.  ::whistle::

I would love to know of anyone who gets thrown out for a 'curse-like' word or for substituting sounds. As a new grad student with way too much time on my hands, I would enjoy filing charges with the Judicial Administrator for violating people's freedom of syllables.

[quote redice][quote Robb]
According to a friend who went to the coach's lunch on Friday, Schafer joked that his kids still think the cheer goes, "Scooby-Doo and Harvard, Too!"  :-D[/quote]

When our son was very young, we used to yell:  "Boo BU"   That worked for a very long time.  ::whistle::[/quote]

So what did you tell him the metal piece of hardware with helical spiraled threads is called?  A twisty nail?  Wait, no.  "Nail" could also be dirty.  ::innocent::

[quote Tom Tone]I would love to know of anyone who gets thrown out for a 'curse-like' word or for substituting sounds. As a new grad student with way too much time on my hands, I would enjoy filing charges with the Judicial Administrator for violating people's freedom of syllables.[/quote]

Hell, I'd consider taking it on as an attorney pro bono.

[quote Beeeej][quote hboss902]They threw somebody out last night for calling the goalie by his first name.[/quote]

If someone can corroborate that (e.g., the victim), I would be very interested to hear about it.[/quote]
In the usher's defense, the Brown goalie is named Fuckwad Jones.

[quote Beeeej][quote cth95][quote imafrshmn]No "asshole," no "fuck," no big deal.[/quote]

Thank you.  Imafrshmn has the best post and attitude of this entire thread.[/quote]

It'd be a terrible attitude for a porn star with a lot of debts, though.[/quote]
... it wasn't long before the studio regretted hiring Bartleby.

Well, I'm a townie with two kids (8 and 5). Around my kids I never curse (they think that "shoot" is the worst curse word I know...and I've got a mouth that would make a sailor blush).  I don't much care if the students curse or not when my kids are there.  It's my job to teach my kids about appropriate use of language.  It's not like a hockey game is the only place they are going to hear cursing.  We routinely hear all sorts of "nasty" words just grocery shopping (often from people on cell phones).  Walking around campus with my kids they once got to hear a girl talking (loudly) about getting wasted and fucking her boyfriend's best friend (a conversation that I'm fairly sure probably should have been conducted at lower volume).  That lead to far more of a discussion with my kids than hockey cheers.  I just say "We don't use those words, do the cheer this way" and we get on with our evening.  

I don't believe I need the AD to protect my children's ears for me.  However, I also don't feel that cursing is an integral part of a good cheer.

The coercive measures being used to attempt to control crowd behavior really seem excessive.

CK

OK, I demand that a fan next week (Dean/"Imafrshmn-who-is-actually-now-a-senior, I'm looking at you) start the following cheer, softly, rising to a massive crescendo:

"Hockey is a game played with a PUCK!"
"Hockey is a game played with a PUCK!"
"Hockey is a game played with a PUCK!"
"HOCKEY IS A GAME PLAYED WITH A PUCK!"
"A PUCK! A PUCK! A PUCK! A PUCK! A PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!"

Please? Pretty please?

I'm rather torn between hating the AD for killing the atmosphere and appreciating his effort to not let the students' antics get out of control.  I just started grad school at Michigan this year and have to say that the games are better without people swearing for no reason.

That being said the Gary Glitter cheer is one of my favorites and I don't think that threatening to remove it is the right call.  At least things haven't been getting worse and for a while that should be enough for the AD - you're never going to make the hockey game completely clean, and why would you?  When you make an emotional investment in a team sometimes things get ugly (probably not an appropriate argument for the Gary Glitter cheer but in general)

As an aside here's an example of what happens when there's no ushers around and no one cares what we say:

YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYUWFyHqYog&eurl=http://mvictors.com/)

[quote RedAndBlue'08]I'm rather torn between hating the AD for killing the atmosphere and appreciating his effort to not let the students' antics get out of control.  I just started grad school at Michigan this year and have to say that the games are better without people swearing for no reason.

That being said the Gary Glitter cheer is one of my favorites and I don't think that threatening to remove it is the right call.  At least things haven't been getting worse and for a while that should be enough for the AD - you're never going to make the hockey game completely clean, and why would you?  When you make an emotional investment in a team sometimes things get ugly (probably not an appropriate argument for the Gary Glitter cheer but in general)

As an aside here's an example of what happens when there's no ushers around and no one cares what we say:

YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYUWFyHqYog&eurl=http://mvictors.com/)[/quote]

Someone should send that video clip to Andy Noel and tell him that his "skills and talents" (along with those of his hockey ushers) are desperately needed in Ann Arbor!

Go West Andy, go west.

Taking Gary Glitter away for a little while will make the swearing go away.

for those who don't know, at Cheel after the "1 Minute of play in the first[or 2nd/3rd] period" announcement Clarkson fans yell "OOOOKay and [Opponent] still sucks". This seemed to be fine with everyone until large numbers of people would add "Dick" to the end of it.

The Arena Management, possibly under instruction from the athletic dept, stopped the announcement at the end of the periods for most of last season. Now this season the announcements are back, but the dicks who yelled "Dick" seem to be silenced. Students have policed it right out of the arena.

Yes, J. Andrew should head out West after this lovely spectacle that was broadcast on tv.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zslb7M83YIU

For those who can't hear it, the chant is 'Fuck you State'

or this classy example from UND - where the Denver coach was ejected and attempted to sit in the penalty box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGSvhYRttbk

[quote BMac]OK, I demand that a fan next week (Dean/"Imafrshmn-who-is-actually-now-a-senior, I'm looking at you) start the following cheer, softly, rising to a massive crescendo:

"Hockey is a game played with a PUCK!"
"Hockey is a game played with a PUCK!"
"Hockey is a game played with a PUCK!"
"HOCKEY IS A GAME PLAYED WITH A PUCK!"
"A PUCK! A PUCK! A PUCK! A PUCK! A PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!"

Please? Pretty please?[/quote]

Yo Bernardo, almost noone in A will have a clue what we're talking about.

[quote Dpperk29]for those who don't know, at Cheel after the "1 Minute of play in the first[or 2nd/3rd] period" announcement Clarkson fans yell "OOOOKay and [Opponent] still sucks". This seemed to be fine with everyone until large numbers of people would add "Dick" to the end of it.

The Arena Management, possibly under instruction from the athletic dept, stopped the announcement at the end of the periods for most of last season. Now this season the announcements are back, but the dicks who yelled "Dick" seem to be silenced. Students have policed it right out of the arena.[/quote]

When I first started watching Cornell hockey, the PA announcer would mark the end of an unsuccessful Cornell power play with "[Opponent] returns to full strength."  The Lynah Faithful would follow that with a loud, synchronized, "And they still suck!"  Even when a successful Cornell penalty kill ended, he would announce, "Cornell returns to full strength," and we would follow that with a loud, synchronized, "And [opponent] still sucks!"

Those announcements stopped in early 1990s - and I've noticed they don't do it in most other arenas, either.  I always assumed Cornell's Athletics Dept. stopped it because they didn't like the response.

On the other hand, for all I know, Arthur had a sore throat one week and just decided it wasn't worth bothering with anymore.  But I sure do miss it.

Monday's (1/26/09) All Things Considered (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99878812) on NPR has a story on the future leader of Andy Noel's family friendly cheering club.

"Pickle them, Pickle them, Go CU!"

[quote Rita]Monday's (1/26/09) All Things Considered (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99878812) on NPR has a story on the future leader of Andy Noel's family friendly cheering club.

"Pickle them, Pickle them, Go CU!"[/quote]Get them admitted, the whole club.

Can we set a timer to bring back this thread in 2014 and see what McKay Hatch is up to then? Maybe he's due for a breakout season around. A bunch of my in-laws are born again and say "shoot" a lot. It's just like the spoken form of writing "sh*t." I think it's a greater skill to control your emotions than do approved word-substitutions.

My Cornell girlfriend did a nice sketch for her sorority in which she hummed some of the words to "Could Have Danced All Night." Actually sounds more risque. As I recall it:

I could have [hmmmmmm] all night!
I could have [hmmmmm] all night!
And still have begged for more.
I could have spread my [hmmmmm replacing wings]
And done a thousand things I've never done before.

Andy Noel might see the clip hey and say, "That's what happens when you let barbarians-in-training continue unchecked." And he might be right. The audio on that clip, beyond the cursing, sounded like the first swell of what could turn into a riot.

really, the most offensive part of the end of that game was the michigan fans chanting "fuck you state?" how about kampfer (coming back from a fractured skull and neck injury earlier this year) getting sucker-punched from behind like bertuzzi-moore and then slashed on the neck? while i'm 22 and from nj (i swear a ton), when i have kids i'd be a lot less afraid of them hearing fuck than watching a kid get killed or paralyzed on the ice. look how upset people were over davenport's injury at rpi, if a similar scene played out in lynah you'd have a reaction similar to the michigan fans. i've played a lot of hockey in my life, the worst things i've heard pale in comparison to the worst things i've seen.

as for swearing in general, i'd recommend everyone watch the swearing episode of penn and teller's aptly titled "bullshit"

[quote George Carlin]I used to work at the Frontier Hotel in Las Vegas, but I got fired for saying "shit" in a town where the big game is called "craps."  There's some kind-of double standard.  They got rich Texans out in the casino goin' "Aw shit! I crapped!"


They fired me.

Shit.

[/quote]

[quote billhoward]Can we set a timer to bring back this thread in 2014 and see what McKay Hatch is up to then? Maybe he's due for a breakout season around. A bunch of my in-laws are born again and say "shoot" a lot. It's just like the spoken form of writing "sh*t." I think it's a greater skill to control your emotions than do approved word-substitutions.[/quote]

The Sci-Fi channel is having a promotion with the word "frak" in the name.  Which is kind of shocking if you substitute the word it clearly stands for in the BSG universe.

[quote Beeeej]When I first started watching Cornell hockey, the PA announcer would mark the end of an unsuccessful Cornell power play with "[Opponent] returns to full strength."  The Lynah Faithful would follow that with a loud, synchronized, "And they still suck!"  Even when a successful Cornell penalty kill ended, he would announce, "Cornell returns to full strength," and we would follow that with a loud, synchronized, "And [opponent] still sucks!"

Those announcements stopped in early 1990s - and I've noticed they don't do it in most other arenas, either.  I always assumed Cornell's Athletics Dept. stopped it because they didn't like the response.[/quote]

I think it used to be mandated; it's still in the game script for the IIHF. I've always assumed it was taken out because every team has above average awareness.

[quote pat][quote Beeeej]When I first started watching Cornell hockey, the PA announcer would mark the end of an unsuccessful Cornell power play with "[Opponent] returns to full strength."  The Lynah Faithful would follow that with a loud, synchronized, "And they still suck!"  Even when a successful Cornell penalty kill ended, he would announce, "Cornell returns to full strength," and we would follow that with a loud, synchronized, "And [opponent] still sucks!"

Those announcements stopped in early 1990s - and I've noticed they don't do it in most other arenas, either.  I always assumed Cornell's Athletics Dept. stopped it because they didn't like the response.[/quote]

I think it used to be mandated; it's still in the game script for the IIHF. I've always assumed it was taken out because every team has above average awareness.[/quote]

A handful of arenas still do it, or have restarted it.  I'm pretty sure that RPI had the PA announcement and I want to believe North Dakota did as well, but you can't hear any noise in that place anyway.  I can't remember if Union did or not because I try to purge my memory of anything related to that place every time I leave.  CU fans lead themselves in that cheer, and I heard it clearly once over RedCast this past weekend.

[quote RichH][quote pat][quote Beeeej]When I first started watching Cornell hockey, the PA announcer would mark the end of an unsuccessful Cornell power play with "[Opponent] returns to full strength."  The Lynah Faithful would follow that with a loud, synchronized, "And they still suck!"  Even when a successful Cornell penalty kill ended, he would announce, "Cornell returns to full strength," and we would follow that with a loud, synchronized, "And [opponent] still sucks!"

Those announcements stopped in early 1990s - and I've noticed they don't do it in most other arenas, either.  I always assumed Cornell's Athletics Dept. stopped it because they didn't like the response.[/quote]

I think it used to be mandated; it's still in the game script for the IIHF. I've always assumed it was taken out because every team has above average awareness.[/quote]

A handful of arenas still do it, or have restarted it.  I'm pretty sure that RPI had the PA announcement and I want to believe North Dakota did as well, but you can't hear any noise in that place anyway.  I can't remember if Union did or not because I try to purge my memory of anything related to that place every time I leave.  CU fans lead themselves in that cheer, and I heard it clearly once over RedCast this past weekend.[/quote]

Do you suppose Arthur would restart it if we promised to buy him a few drinks after the games?  :-)

[quote Beeeej]
Do you suppose Arthur would restart it if we promised to buy him a few drinks after the games?  :-)[/quote]

Not a chance. I don't take bribes. (Although I'm always open to anyone who wants to buy me a beer ...)

I stopped making the announcement because Laing Kennedy asked me to (and when the Director of Athletics asks you, in my position, it's not really a request ...). I wasn't terribly unhappy to give it up, either: the announcement isn't required by any rule or protocol I'm familiar with, and it's one less thing I have to pay attention to (and thereby run the risk of missing something more interesting or important).

Brent Brekke's whistle served the same purpose for many years, although now that Brent is gone, that's no longer the case. But you're still going to have to keep yourselves informed about manpower changes caused by players returning to play from the penalty box, because I'm not going to do it. These days, I see little enough of the game as is, so I'm not looking for more things to do.

they still do the announcement at denver games with the "and they still suck" from the fans

they were doing the full strength announcement at minnesota games as of a few years ago.  given that the follow-on fan cheer was "that's debatable", i'd imagine it's still going on.  "always were" is their response to gophers at full strength

[quote ACM]Brent Brekke's whistle served the same purpose for many years, although now that Brent is gone, that's no longer the case.[/quote]

There's always the goalie slapping his stick on the ice, amplified by the faithful yelling "SHUT UP!!!!" if it's the opposing goalie doing it.

[quote jtwcornell91][quote ACM]Brent Brekke's whistle served the same purpose for many years, although now that Brent is gone, that's no longer the case.[/quote]

There's always the goalie slapping his stick on the ice, amplified by the faithful yelling "SHUT UP!!!!" if it's the opposing goalie doing it.[/quote]I noticed that Ben was quite "slap-happy" at the ends of penalties last weekend - has he always done that?  I'd never seen him in person (pretty sure), and didn't remember seeing it on the webcasts before.

[quote bernie]they were doing the full strength announcement at minnesota games as of a few years ago.  given that the follow-on fan cheer was "that's debatable", i'd imagine it's still going on.  "always were" is their response to gophers at full strength[/quote]For a good hockey team, the Gophers fans have some shitty cheers.

I actually kind of like 'that's debatable'. But then again, I also like the idea of a pumpkin on top of the clocktower.

[quote Josh '99][quote bernie]they were doing the full strength announcement at minnesota games as of a few years ago.  given that the follow-on fan cheer was "that's debatable", i'd imagine it's still going on.  "always were" is their response to gophers at full strength[/quote]For a good hockey team, the Gophers fans have some shitty cheers.[/quote]
Do you have other evidence? Those are both great responses.

[quote ugarte][quote Josh '99][quote bernie]they were doing the full strength announcement at minnesota games as of a few years ago.  given that the follow-on fan cheer was "that's debatable", i'd imagine it's still going on.  "always were" is their response to gophers at full strength[/quote]For a good hockey team, the Gophers fans have some shitty cheers.[/quote]
Do you have other evidence? Those are both great responses.[/quote]I disagree, I think they're stupid and twee but that's probably what passes for humor in the Upper Midwest.  The only other thing I can think of is the "M-I-N-N-...  etc." thing that sounds like something a seven-year-old would come up with to prove he learned how to spell Minnesota.

[quote bernie]they still do the announcement at denver games with the "and they still suck" from the fans

they were doing the full strength announcement at minnesota games as of a few years ago.  given that the follow-on fan cheer was "that's debatable", i'd imagine it's still going on.  "always were" is their response to gophers at full strength[/quote]
Wisconsin uses the "that's debatable" also.  I remember hearing it repeatedly at Green Bay and/or Milwaukee in '06 - not sure if the PA guys was making the announcement at both places.  However, I don't recall hearing it from the Gopher fans at Mariucci in '05.

[quote Josh '99][quote ugarte][quote Josh '99][quote bernie]they were doing the full strength announcement at minnesota games as of a few years ago.  given that the follow-on fan cheer was "that's debatable", i'd imagine it's still going on.  "always were" is their response to gophers at full strength[/quote]For a good hockey team, the Gophers fans have some shitty cheers.[/quote]
Do you have other evidence? Those are both great responses.[/quote]I disagree, I think they're stupid and twee but that's probably what passes for humor in the Upper Midwest.  The only other thing I can think of is the "M-I-N-N-...  etc." thing that sounds like something a seven-year-old would come up with to prove he learned how to spell Minnesota.[/quote]
So "they still suck" is lamentably lost but "that's debatable" is stupid and twee. Got it.

[quote Robb]I noticed that Ben was quite "slap-happy" at the ends of penalties last weekend - has he always done that?  I'd never seen him in person (pretty sure), and didn't remember seeing it on the webcasts before.[/quote]

Pretty sure he's always done it. He's certainly done it most of this year. There was one game early in the season--so early it may have even been pre-season--where he failed to do it once and the opposing player came out of the penalty box, took a pass, and scored. Schafer appeared pretty annoyed at that, and Ben has been pounding the stick on the ice pretty regularly since then.

[quote andyw2100]Ben has been pounding the stick on the ice pretty regularly since then.[/quote]

...as the kids call it these days.  (to get back to the spirit...the spirit of the thread!)

[quote RichH] (to get back to the spirit...the spirit of the thread!)[/quote]

OK. Did the boys and girls of Lynah pass the test last week or will Papa Andy be punishing the band them for the naughty words?

The ushers are now throwing students out in Newman. At the Yale game I saw some usher sneak down one of the rows in the middle during the chant and practically put his ear in some guy's face to hear him curse and throw him out. The guy even disguised that he was an usher by wearing a suit.

[quote jdonofrio]The ushers are now throwing students out in Newman. At the Yale game I saw some usher sneak down one of the rows in the middle during the chant and practically put his ear in some guy's face to hear him curse and throw him out. The guy even disguised that he was an usher by wearing a suit.[/quote]

I'm guessing it was an associate AD then, not an usher.

[quote jdonofrio]The ushers are now throwing students out in Newman. At the Yale game I saw some usher sneak down one of the rows in the middle during the chant and practically put his ear in some guy's face to hear him curse and throw him out. The guy even disguised that he was an usher by wearing a suit.[/quote]

When I saw 1 new post in this thread, I clicked thinking "I wonder what happened in Newman this weekend."

Of course, it shouldn't be necessary to curse during cheers.

Nahhh.  Plain clothes.  NSP - Newman Secret Police.

Just looked through the staff pictures on cornellbigred.com, the guy who threw someone out in Newman was Matt Coats, I didnt know who he was, but that is the guy you guys have been complaining about right?

He is a real jackass. If I was closer to the guy he threw out I would have warned the kid and then Coats probably would have thrown me out too.

I wonder if J. Andrew ever went to the N. Country, if his ears would bleed from some of the crap that comes out up there.

LAUREL: From Kevin Vallely. To Cornell University's athletic department. Last Saturday, my daughter and I attended our first Cornell women's basketball game against Columbia University. It was a great game and we had fun. After the game, Jeffery Hall approached us and offered up some Cornell hospitality. Unfortunately, we had to get home. While in the lobby preparing to leave, Andy Noel came over and introduced himself to us. Both Mr. Hall and Mr. Noel were kind enough to stay with my daughter as I went to our van. Their generosity was greatly appreciated. The Cornell community should be proud to have these two fine gentlemen on your team.

[quote Tom Tone]I wonder if J. Andrew ever went to the N. Country, if his ears would bleed from some of the crap that comes out up there.

LAUREL: From Kevin Vallely. To Cornell University's athletic department. Last Saturday, my daughter and I attended our first Cornell women's basketball game against Columbia University. It was a great game and we had fun. After the game, Jeffery Hall approached us and offered up some Cornell hospitality. Unfortunately, we had to get home. While in the lobby preparing to leave, Andy Noel came over and introduced himself to us. Both Mr. Hall and Mr. Noel were kind enough to stay with my daughter as I went to our van. Their generosity was greatly appreciated. The Cornell community should be proud to have these two fine gentlemen on your team.[/quote]

FACT:  Under Andy's tenure we've moved into third place (from 5th?) in all-time aggregate Ivy League Championships, behind Princeton and Harvard.  We've won 50 of our 179 Ivy titles under him.  For the past six years, we've been in either second or third place in terms of annual Ivy titles won.  Yeah...fire Andy!!  Andy, Matt and Gene are doing their jobs, and like ALL of us, they make mistakes.  Walk in mile in their shoes, then talk.  Until then, grow a third eye and try to see things from their view.

Much of the pressure to clean up Lynah probably comes from the CU Administration, like Skorton and Murphy.  I doubt Skorton wants to hear it, nor does he want his invited guests to hear it.  It's kind of like having your child mouth-off or swear in public.  It doesn't feel good, and as a parent it's necessary to make the kid understand it's inappropriate.

Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.  Everyone whines about their rights, except when they find something offensive, like racial slurs.  It's admirable to consider our fellow citizens, and a good lesson to teach children.

End of rant....

[quote Townie]FACT:  Under Andy's tenure we've moved into third place (from 5th?) in all-time aggregate Ivy League Championships, blah blah blah[/quote]

Ask yourself: Is winning the only thing that matters?  Championships over everything else??  Awesome POV.

[quote RichH][quote Townie]FACT:  Under Andy's tenure we've moved into third place (from 5th?) in all-time aggregate Ivy League Championships, blah blah blah[/quote]

Ask yourself: Is winning the only thing that matters?  Championships over everything else??  Awesome POV.[/quote]

Clearly unincumbered by the thought process.

[quote Townie][quote RichH][quote Townie]FACT:  Under Andy's tenure we've moved into third place (from 5th?) in all-time aggregate Ivy League Championships, blah blah blah[/quote]

Ask yourself: Is winning the only thing that matters?  Championships over everything else??  Awesome POV.[/quote]

Clearly unincumbered (sic) by the thought process.[/quote]

Clearly you need to grow two eyes before lecturing others to grow a third. If you think the only gripe here with Andy/Matt/Gene/Anita etc. is the language thing, you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business. It's pretty clear to me (and Rich I'm guessing) that you care first that Cornell wins more now than they did under the CEO of Athletics and secondly are pleased to see swearing being bludgeoned out of lynah. Either nothing else matters to you (which would be a tremendous shame) or you're not seeing this sitution from the shoes of someone who has to deal with these folks (or even witness them in action) on anything approaching a regular basis.

Sure, they want to clean up Lynah at whatever cost and I could deal with that if the campaign weren't one of condescending, holier than though arrogance and lack of common sense. They are using a sledge hammer on lynah instead of a scalpel but I suppose that's one of their "mistakes" that everyone makes (we should take the bad with the good as long as we're winning, eh?). Have they finally given up the crusade to eradicate "suck" yet? That one was downright hilarious. I've been on the receiving end of baseless accusations and empty threats and I've witnessed ridiculous and unprofessional behavior from these administrators.  I don't care if Cornell never loses a game in anything, it doesn't justify the continuation of this administration one iota in my mind. They care only about themselves and their agenda and care not about the cornell community, students, alumni, or fans who may get in their way, or heaven forbid ever need their support for anything. I've dealt with athletic administrators at most of the ECAC schools. None treat other human beings with the same disrespect as Cornell's do their own people. That's a FACT.

End of rant.

Your point that it is Skorton is completely and utterly wrong. J. Andrew has been on his crusade since as early as Rawlings, through Lehman, and now Skorton.  I do want Cornell to be classier than say the N. Country where it's acceptable to yell pussy at a downed player or asshole for every penalty, but the arbitrary and capricious manner that Cornell singles out people during a time when you can't tell the difference between 'fuck' and 'rough' is ridiculous.

Furthermore, under J. Andrew we have:

- expanded Lynah rink to the point where we no longer sell out.

- forced a family of 4 to need 1300$ to just attend every home game and not buy anything from the concession stands.

- built a wrestling facility that cannot actually be used to hold wrestling matches.

-sold out Alumni Fields and exiled out practice facilities to require buses for teams to get there.

-had a period where students had to pay in order to go to sporting events because they 'forgot' to file the proper paperwork.

[quote Tom Tone]Your point that it is Skorton is completely and utterly wrong. J. Andrew has been on his crusade since as early as Rawlings, through Lehman, and now Skorton.  I do want Cornell to be classier than say the N. Country where it's acceptable to yell pussy at a downed player or asshole for every penalty, but the arbitrary and capricious manner that Cornell singles out people during a time when you can't tell the difference between 'fuck' and 'rough' is ridiculous.

Furthermore, under J. Andrew we have:

- expanded Lynah rink to the point where we no longer sell out.

- forced a family of 4 to need 1300$ to just attend every home game and not buy anything from the concession stands.

- built a wrestling facility that cannot actually be used to hold wrestling matches.

-sold out Alumni Fields and exiled out practice facilities to require buses for teams to get there.

-had a period where students had to pay in order to go to sporting events because they 'forgot' to file the proper paperwork.[/quote]

Tom, you miss the point! We've had winning teams! And besides, there are fewer students to monitor when they have to pay.

[quote Tom Tone]Your point that it is Skorton is completely and utterly wrong. J. Andrew has been on his crusade since as early as Rawlings, through Lehman, and now Skorton.  I do want Cornell to be classier than say the N. Country where it's acceptable to yell pussy at a downed player or asshole for every penalty, but the arbitrary and capricious manner that Cornell singles out people during a time when you can't tell the difference between 'fuck' and 'rough' is ridiculous. [/quote]I'll mention again that Coach Schafer was a prime mover for this change. Somehow when we discuss this we all conveniently forget that point. Yes, it has been poorly implemented, but do any of us know who first started the discussion?

QuoteFurthermore, under J. Andrew we have:

- expanded Lynah rink to the point where we no longer sell out.

So, you'd rather have a smaller rink where some people can't get tickets for a game?::screwy::We had a wonderful expansion, again with strong input from the hockey program. More seats, but still a Lynah atmosphere.

Quote- forced a family of 4 to need 1300$ to just attend every home game and not buy anything from the concession stands.

I agree, I'm one of those. (family of 3)

Quote- built a wrestling facility that cannot actually be used to hold wrestling matches.

Give me break. Everyone in the sports world (a bit of hyperbole, I agree) says this is a wonderful facility and a great addition to the program. It's a strong draw for recruits and you can hold matches there. If you want to accommodate larger crowds you move them to a larger on campus facility. How novel an idea. Have you ever heard of UConn playing home games in Hartford Civic Center? Maybe wrestling should move back to Teagle?

Quote-sold out Alumni Fields and exiled out practice facilities to require buses for teams to get there.

Alumni fields started to go many years before, the present administration just continued it. Do you honestly think if the school wanted more room for academic facilities, that athletics could or should stop it. If so move to another league where athletics rules the school; there are many of them out there.

Quote-had a period where students had to pay in order to go to sporting events because they 'forgot' to file the proper paperwork.

That does sound stupid, I remember it, but not well enough to comment.

Look my opinion is that we are currently in a great time for Cornell athletics, both men's and women's. Now if we could just get a good football team.::help::

I know that Coach Schafer was the originator of many of the changes regarding swearing, however, many times athletics has taken it too far especially in threatening the band with various sanctions. There was a time when 'sucks' was considered taboo.

I'd like people to get tickets but ticket prices increased along with with increased capacity. The standing room used to be a pretty decent way to watch a game and now, some of the sightlines at the tops of the student sections are terrible.

The loss of alumni fields to academic buildings is tolerable, yet I don't see the reason why they built a field hockey 'stadium' on them instead of out in the new athletics area near E. Hill Plaza. Softball, tennis, squash, and polo seem to have no problems out there. This goes along with the utter lack of open space for non-athlete students.  Since they can't use alumni fields or Jessup fields, they are relegated to the Appel fields which are often used by club sports or reserved in some other manner.

As far as the student's paying:
http://cornellsun.com/node/17758

No other hockey playing Ivy charge students for admission to any sporting event and only Brown breaks the 200$ mark for public season tickets compared to our 324$.

[quote Chris '03][quote Townie][quote RichH][quote Townie]FACT:  Under Andy's tenure we've moved into third place (from 5th?) in all-time aggregate Ivy League Championships, blah blah blah[/quote]

Ask yourself: Is winning the only thing that matters?  Championships over everything else??  Awesome POV.[/quote]

Clearly unincumbered (sic) by the thought process.[/quote]

Clearly you need to grow two eyes before lecturing others to grow a third. If you think the only gripe here with Andy/Matt/Gene/Anita etc. is the language thing, you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business. It's pretty clear to me (and Rich I'm guessing) that you care first that Cornell wins more now than they did under the CEO of Athletics and secondly are pleased to see swearing being bludgeoned out of lynah. Either nothing else matters to you (which would be a tremendous shame) or you're not seeing this sitution from the shoes of someone who has to deal with these folks (or even witness them in action) on anything approaching a regular basis.

Sure, they want to clean up Lynah at whatever cost and I could deal with that if the campaign weren't one of condescending, holier than though arrogance and lack of common sense. They are using a sledge hammer on lynah instead of a scalpel but I suppose that's one of their "mistakes" that everyone makes (we should take the bad with the good as long as we're winning, eh?). Have they finally given up the crusade to eradicate "suck" yet? That one was downright hilarious. I've been on the receiving end of baseless accusations and empty threats and I've witnessed ridiculous and unprofessional behavior from these administrators.  I don't care if Cornell never loses a game in anything, it doesn't justify the continuation of this administration one iota in my mind. They care only about themselves and their agenda and care not about the cornell community, students, alumni, or fans who may get in their way, or heaven forbid ever need their support for anything. I've dealt with athletic administrators at most of the ECAC schools. None treat other human beings with the same disrespect as Cornell's do their own people. That's a FACT.

End of rant.[/quote]

Nice!  Love the assumptions about what I do and don't know, and about what I want for Cornell athletics.  Actually, I've been in meetings at the Executive level with Athletics and have heard the concerns from the VP's mouth.  This is a university concern now as it was during Rawlings' term.

About the winning thing: just stating the facts.  Sorry if it disturbs your fragile reality.

About swearing:  Dang!  You mean I missed another good old-fashioned bludgeoning!!  Come on Chris, cut the histrionics.  I'd like to think students would have more respect for their fellow citizens.  But since some of them don't, let the bludgeoning begin!

Believe me, Susan Murphy has heard all the "baseless accusations" against this administration, so either she's an idiot or they were truly baseless.  Knowing Susan, she is extremely intelligent and effective.  If Andy & Co, is as bad as you suggest, they'd be long gone.  The fact is they are effective, but not perfect.  The alums who support Cornell with their involvement and BIG dollars endorse him.  So either everybody is too stupid to see through Andy's clever ploy or Andy deserves more credit than you give him!

[quote Townie]The alums who support Cornell with their involvement and BIG dollars endorse him.  So either everybody is too stupid to see through Andy's clever ploy or Andy deserves more credit than you give him![/quote]

Perhaps, but these alumni with the big money aren't the ones putting up with the current tactics of J. Andrew.  It's easy to pick on the group that lacks the money to change things now but I wonder if the dollars will continue to come in as the current generation of students recall how they were treated.

[quote Tom Tone]Your point that it is Skorton is completely and utterly wrong. J. Andrew has been on his crusade since as early as Rawlings, through Lehman, and now Skorton.  I do want Cornell to be classier than say the N. Country where it's acceptable to yell pussy at a downed player or asshole for every penalty, but the arbitrary and capricious manner that Cornell singles out people during a time when you can't tell the difference between 'fuck' and 'rough' is ridiculous.

Furthermore, under J. Andrew we have:

- expanded Lynah rink to the point where we no longer sell out.

- forced a family of 4 to need 1300$ to just attend every home game and not buy anything from the concession stands.

- built a wrestling facility that cannot actually be used to hold wrestling matches.

-sold out Alumni Fields and exiled out practice facilities to require buses for teams to get there.

-had a period where students had to pay in order to go to sporting events because they 'forgot' to file the proper paperwork.[/quote]

Jim Hyla did a good job of responding to many of these, but I'll respond to a couple.

The Friedman Wrestling Center is a major, MAJOR recruiting advantage for Rob Koll.  The facility had a budget, so one must work within those confines.  Andy was very cautious NOT to burden the university by exceeding that budget, unlike many of his predecessors!  I'd also like to mention that it was Coach Noel who helped cultivate the Athletics relationship with Steve Friedman back in the 1970's as he rebuilt the wrestling program.  And he did it with unappealing facilities that shared a weight room with non-athletes.  Notice the Friedman Strength & Conditioning Center?  Thanks Steve, thanks Andy!

Concessions:  Agreed...the pricing is an embarassment!  Unfortunately, Athletics benefits very little from those prices.  Background: Previous vendors were difficult to work with.  They only wanted to serve at certain money-making events.  In order to keep a consistent vendor and have them work events that are barely profitable, they needed to increase prices.  Having said that, I still agree that prices are too high.

The students paying for events was an administrative screw-up during a time of transition in the business office.  The recent change that occured 4 (?) years ago reflected a shift in Undergrad Student Assembly priorities. The Grad SA did not cease funding.  Hard to "blame" Andy for either of those.

Concerning the increase in ticket prices, understand that Athletics is under continual funding pressure.  Very few "outsiders" truly know the funding model.  The University funds only a portion of Athletics & Physical Education.  It's up to Andy & Co. to figure out the rest...that's the truth.  The (majority) remainder of funds comes from alumni gifts, endowment income and other revenue (tickets, sponsorships, etc.).  Hockey tickets are an obvious method for funding any university shortfall.  Despite the price increase, the Lynah experience is virtually unchanged, which surprises me.  (I thought there'd be more empty seats.)  It's unfortunate that prices are so high, and I don't like it either, but I understand Athletics has very few options if the program is to thrive.  Frankly, I think they've done a good job given the constant financial pressure they endure.  Understand that CU's contribution to Athletics is highly dependant upon the external economic environment, so when state funding or endowment income drops, so does the funding to the departments.  Despite this variable funding stream, Athletics continues to provide a positive experience for the student-athlete, which is a core element of their mission.

Look, Andy & Co. are not perfect, but few truly understand the circumstances and only draw conclusions from the tip of the iceberg.  This original post is a prime example.  Blame Andy for "selling out" alumni fields?  That was a trustee decision.  Blame Andy for an inadequate wrestling center?  Get a grip...that facility (with its own work-out facility, training room, etc) is like Heaven to recruits.

Obviously I have access to information that few here do.  Based on my knowledge of the FACTS, many (not all) of the conclusions I read are drawn from opinion and conjecture, and are inaccurate and inherently unfair.  Like it or not, he is one of most successful Cornell ADs.  His administration has done an excellent job of stewarding the program, both Athletics and Physical Education.  Been to a basketball game recently?  Remember how vacant Newman Arena was in 2000?  He hired (and retained!) both Steve Donahue and Dayna Smith.  Here are a few more facts:

Last Men's Lax championship before Andy:  1987
Last Women's Lax    "         "      "  :  Never  
Last Men's Basketball championship before Andy:  1988
Last Women's Basketball "           "      "   :  Never

These don't happen by magic.  Someone needs to work to make it happen.  Be fair, give credit where it's due, and give someone the benefit of the doubt in the absence of ALL the facts.

[quote Tom Tone]
No other hockey playing Ivy charge students for admission to any sporting event and only Brown breaks the 200$ mark for public season tickets compared to our 324$.[/quote]  Maybe so, but understand that each Ivy school has a different funding model, so comparisons between institutions is classic apples and oranges.  Also, in some institutions, the student activity fee covers ticket revenue, fitness center memberships, etc.  IIRC, the athletic program at Princeton is fully-funded by the institution, so they need not charge admission.  Ticket revenue for Cornell is a necessary part of their funding.  As funding pressure increased over the past five years, Athletics began charging to more events (e.g, football, women's lax, volleyball, women hockey, etc.).  Given the option, I doubt Athletics would charge students for events, unless instructed by the university.  I believe Cornell provides the lowest level of athletics funding of all the Ivies despite having the second (maybe third) largest program (number of teams).

[quote Townie][quote Chris '03][quote Townie][quote RichH][quote Townie]FACT:  Under Andy's tenure we've moved into third place (from 5th?) in all-time aggregate Ivy League Championships, blah blah blah[/quote]

Ask yourself: Is winning the only thing that matters?  Championships over everything else??  Awesome POV.[/quote]

Clearly unincumbered (sic) by the thought process.[/quote]

Clearly you need to grow two eyes before lecturing others to grow a third. If you think the only gripe here with Andy/Matt/Gene/Anita etc. is the language thing, you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business. It's pretty clear to me (and Rich I'm guessing) that you care first that Cornell wins more now than they did under the CEO of Athletics and secondly are pleased to see swearing being bludgeoned out of lynah. Either nothing else matters to you (which would be a tremendous shame) or you're not seeing this sitution from the shoes of someone who has to deal with these folks (or even witness them in action) on anything approaching a regular basis.

Sure, they want to clean up Lynah at whatever cost and I could deal with that if the campaign weren't one of condescending, holier than though arrogance and lack of common sense. They are using a sledge hammer on lynah instead of a scalpel but I suppose that's one of their "mistakes" that everyone makes (we should take the bad with the good as long as we're winning, eh?). Have they finally given up the crusade to eradicate "suck" yet? That one was downright hilarious. I've been on the receiving end of baseless accusations and empty threats and I've witnessed ridiculous and unprofessional behavior from these administrators.  I don't care if Cornell never loses a game in anything, it doesn't justify the continuation of this administration one iota in my mind. They care only about themselves and their agenda and care not about the cornell community, students, alumni, or fans who may get in their way, or heaven forbid ever need their support for anything. I've dealt with athletic administrators at most of the ECAC schools. None treat other human beings with the same disrespect as Cornell's do their own people. That's a FACT.

End of rant.[/quote]

Nice!  Love the assumptions about what I do and don't know, and about what I want for Cornell athletics.  Actually, I've been in meetings at the Executive level with Athletics and have heard the concerns from the VP's mouth.  This is a university concern now as it was during Rawlings' term.
[/quote]

Good for you. Would you like a medal?

QuoteAbout the winning thing: just stating the facts.  Sorry if it disturbs your fragile reality.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE WINNING. IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THIS CONVERSATION.

QuoteAbout swearing:  Dang!  You mean I missed another good old-fashioned bludgeoning!!  Come on Chris, cut the histrionics.  I'd like to think students would have more respect for their fellow citizens.  But since some of them don't, let the bludgeoning begin!

Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

QuoteBelieve me, Susan Murphy has heard all the "baseless accusations" against this administration, so either she's an idiot or they were truly baseless.  Knowing Susan, she is extremely intelligent and effective.  If Andy & Co, is as bad as you suggest, they'd be long gone.  

I think you need to reread my post. I'm not sure what baseless accusations you're referring too.

QuoteThe fact is they are effective, but not perfect.  The alums who support Cornell with their involvement and BIG dollars endorse him.  So either everybody is too stupid to see through Andy's clever ploy or Andy deserves more credit than you give him!

Do they really endorse HIM or the program? I'm willing to bet plenty of donors would still donate if the AD were a rock.

[quote Townie]These don't happen by magic.  Someone needs to work to make it happen.  Be fair, give credit where it's due, and give someone the benefit of the doubt in the absence of ALL the facts.[/quote]


While all these behind-the-scenes facts might be known by a select few, the image presented by the athletics department to the non-student athlete is poor.

The Phys Ed department is a joke as they charge student between 50$-250$ just to take 1 of 2 required gym classes. Meaning a student who must pay the student activity fee, wants hockey season tickets, and a gym membership for 4 years is already 2500$ in the hole compared to a marginal cost at a comparable Ivy. If J. Andrew were being such a good steward, maybe he should be pushing for more money to reduce these costs instead of building a Wrestling palace usable by .001% of the student population.

[quote Townie]And he did it with unappealing facilities that shared a weight room with non-athletes. [/quote]

So it's okay for the non-athletes who pay 145$ a year to workout in unappealing facilities?

QuoteThe Phys Ed department is a joke as they charge student between 50$-250$ just to take 1 of 2 required gym classes. Meaning a student who must pay the student activity fee, wants hockey season tickets, and a gym membership for 4 years is already 2500$ in the hole compared to a marginal cost at a comparable Ivy.

Last time I checked the PE department offered numerous courses for free, most of the Ivies levy a student activity fee, Penn charges their students for basketball tickets (the only comparable Ivy sporting experience) despite the fact that the Palestra is rarely at capacity, and if everybody was given "free" access to the fitness centers tuition would simply just go up in kind.

Besides, many of the pools, tracks, fields, and gyms are already free and open to students, to say nothing of the various outdoor pursuits that Ithaca offers.

It would be nice if people knew what they were talking about before they started to complain.

[quote Tom Tone][quote Townie]The alums who support Cornell with their involvement and BIG dollars endorse him.  So either everybody is too stupid to see through Andy's clever ploy or Andy deserves more credit than you give him![/quote]

Perhaps, but these alumni with the big money aren't the ones putting up with the current tactics of J. Andrew.  It's easy to pick on the group that lacks the money to change things now but I wonder if the dollars will continue to come in as the current generation of students recall how they were treated.[/quote]

I, for one, am not going to donate a goddamn dime to Cornell.  They bled my dry and didn't have any remorse in doing it.  I had a sophomore year class that was REQUIRED to take... and it had a course fee attached to it.  That just isn't right.  Further more, I have seen a steady diminish in the way that athletics has treated us, and won't be donating anything to them.  Ever.

[quote Flyers1037]I have seen a steady diminish in the way that athletics has treated us, and won't be donating anything to them.  Ever.[/quote]

If your writing skills don't improve your charitible foundation will suffer.::whistle::

[quote Chris '03][quote Townie][quote Chris '03]
Clearly you need to grow two eyes before lecturing others to grow a third. If you think the only gripe here with Andy/Matt/Gene/Anita etc. is the language thing, you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business. It's pretty clear to me (and Rich I'm guessing) that you care first that Cornell wins more now than they did under the CEO of Athletics and secondly are pleased to see swearing being bludgeoned out of lynah. Either nothing else matters to you (which would be a tremendous shame) or you're not seeing this sitution from the shoes of someone who has to deal with these folks (or even witness them in action) on anything approaching a regular basis.

Sure, they want to clean up Lynah at whatever cost and I could deal with that if the campaign weren't one of condescending, holier than though arrogance and lack of common sense. They are using a sledge hammer on lynah instead of a scalpel but I suppose that's one of their "mistakes" that everyone makes (we should take the bad with the good as long as we're winning, eh?). Have they finally given up the crusade to eradicate "suck" yet? That one was downright hilarious. I've been on the receiving end of baseless accusations and empty threats and I've witnessed ridiculous and unprofessional behavior from these administrators.  I don't care if Cornell never loses a game in anything, it doesn't justify the continuation of this administration one iota in my mind. They care only about themselves and their agenda and care not about the cornell community, students, alumni, or fans who may get in their way, or heaven forbid ever need their support for anything. I've dealt with athletic administrators at most of the ECAC schools. None treat other human beings with the same disrespect as Cornell's do their own people. That's a FACT.

End of rant.[/quote]

Nice!  Love the assumptions about what I do and don't know, and about what I want for Cornell athletics.  Actually, I've been in meetings at the Executive level with Athletics and have heard the concerns from the VP's mouth.  This is a university concern now as it was during Rawlings' term.
[/quote]

Good for you. Would you like a medal?
[/quote]

Merely responding to your comment that "...you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business."  The fact is I have far more interaction with "these people" than you, and I know the real source of many of the initiatives for which you (and others) rush to place on Andy & Co..  Now, you can either belittle me and marginalize yourself, or learn something from someone who has first-hand background information on many Athletics' issues.  

How about a shrubbery instead of a medal?  :-D

[quote Chris '03]
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE WINNING. IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THIS CONVERSATION.
[/quote]

I don't think it's irrelevant.  This conversation (like many that involve Athletics' decisions) quickly devolved into Andy-bashing and calls for his dismissal.  My goal here is both to share background information I possess about the issue under discussion and to point out some of Cornell's successes under his administration.  Fair and balanced.  Also, you SCREAM that you don't care about winning, but if he were not winning, I suspect your position would change, and rightfully so.

[quote Chris '03]Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.
[/quote]

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology.  My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.

[quote Townie]
Believe me, Susan Murphy has heard all the "baseless accusations" against this administration, so either she's an idiot or they were truly baseless.  Knowing Susan, she is extremely intelligent and effective.  If Andy & Co, is as bad as you suggest, they'd be long gone.  
[/quote]
[quote Chris '03]
I think you need to reread my post. I'm not sure what baseless accusations you're referring too.
[/quote]

I'm referring to the constant stream of baseless accusations heaped on the AD from students and others.

[quote Chris '03]Do they really endorse HIM or the program? I'm willing to bet plenty of donors would still donate if the AD were a rock.[/quote]

I agree that "plenty of donors" would still contribute, but if the wealthy influential donors had legitimate cause not to support Andy, he'd be out.  Period.  If coaches felt he was ineffective at providing them a chance to compete, they'd move on and he'd be out.   He's been here since 1999.  CU Athletics has enjoyed historic levels of success during his tenure, both win/loss and programmatic.  Granted, he did not do this in a vacuum, but the fact that he continues to receive support from institutional insiders leads me to believe he's doing a lot of things right.  Overall, he's doing a very good job in a very difficult environment.  Again, maybe not perfect, but very good.

[quote Tom Tone]
The loss of alumni fields to academic buildings is tolerable, yet I don't see the reason why they built a field hockey 'stadium' on them instead of out in the new athletics area near E. Hill Plaza. Softball, tennis, squash, and polo seem to have no problems out there. This goes along with the utter lack of open space for non-athlete students.  Since they can't use alumni fields or Jessup fields, they are relegated to the Appel fields which are often used by club sports or reserved in some other manner.[/quote]

Two words Tom: Gender Equity.  The university needs to demonstrate compliance with Title IX, and being that field hockey is a women's sport, this probably counts as a women's initiative.  Placing it off campus might have pissed off the Title IX advocates, possibly giving rise to a lawsuit.  Example of Title IX: many years ago Cornell had both women's and men's gymnastics teams.  Athletics decided to drop the sport, but threats of a Title IX lawsuit prompted Cornell to retain the women's program.  As an aside, for the second time in three years, Cornell women's gymnastics scored the highest finish for a non-scholarship program in the history of the USGA Collegiate Nationals, placing SECOND in the finals while producing seven All-Americans.  This is a prime example of a Title IX success story, and another example of recent Athletics' success.

[quote Townie]many years ago Cornell had both women's and men's gymnastics teams.  Athletics decided to drop the sport, but threats of a Title IX lawsuit prompted Cornell to retain the women's program ... Cornell women's gymnastics scored the highest finish for a non-scholarship program in the history of the USGA Collegiate Nationals, placing SECOND in the finals while producing seven All-Americans.  This is a prime example of a Title IX success story, and another example of recent Athletics' success.[/quote]

Athletics trying to cut a sport that went on to do well is an example of their success?

QuoteTownie]
[quote Chris '03]Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology.  My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.[/quote]

Interesting. It seems as though this would buttress the arguments that the AD's policies continue to treat the students unfairly and unequally.

There haven't been many stories of a student's swearing being followed up with a "good old-fashioned apology".  It is instead followed up with being accosted by a half-deaf usher who may or may not have heard the student correctly, and a subsequent ejection from the rink.

[quote Townie][quote Tom Tone]
The loss of alumni fields to academic buildings is tolerable, yet I don't see the reason why they built a field hockey 'stadium' on them instead of out in the new athletics area near E. Hill Plaza. Softball, tennis, squash, and polo seem to have no problems out there. This goes along with the utter lack of open space for non-athlete students.  Since they can't use alumni fields or Jessup fields, they are relegated to the Appel fields which are often used by club sports or reserved in some other manner.[/quote]

Two words Tom: Gender Equity.  The university needs to demonstrate compliance with Title IX, and being that field hockey is a women's sport, this probably counts as a women's initiative.  Placing it off campus might have pissed off the Title IX advocates, possibly giving rise to a lawsuit.  Example of Title IX: many years ago Cornell had both women's and men's gymnastics teams.  Athletics decided to drop the sport, but threats of a Title IX lawsuit prompted Cornell to retain the women's program.  As an aside, for the second time in three years, Cornell women's gymnastics scored the highest finish for a non-scholarship program in the history of the USGA Collegiate Nationals, placing SECOND in the finals while producing seven All-Americans.  This is a prime example of a Title IX success story, and another example of recent Athletics' success.[/quote]
And Fencing.  While not quite as dramatic of a turnaround, the re-instated Women's Fencing Team is doing much better than the version when we were co-ed.  The Cornell women beat another Ivy in 2006 for the first time in 14 years (yikes) and sent 5 fencers to the NCAAs last year.  The coach is a World Champion and Olympic medalist - a major upgrade to the support for fencing since the mid 90s.  Now about that men's team....  Grrrrr....

[quote mnagowski] Last time I checked the PE department offered numerous courses for free, most of the Ivies levy a student activity fee, Penn charges their students for basketball tickets (the only comparable Ivy sporting experience) despite the fact that the Palestra is rarely at capacity, and if everybody was given "free" access to the fitness centers tuition would simply just go up in kind.

Besides, many of the pools, tracks, fields, and gyms are already free and open to students, to say nothing of the various outdoor pursuits that Ithaca offers.

It would be nice if people knew what they were talking about before they started to complain.[/quote]

Since my research methods are being called into question, I'll offer up some evidence that I do in fact know what I am talking about. My large issue is that while J. Andrew's spending orgy in pursuit of Ivy titles (even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey), the experience for the non-student athlete is dismal.  

Yes, there are some gym classes that are free. Swimming, basketball, volleyball, Israeli dance, badminton, Tai Chi, walking, jogging, and a few mind and body things. Anything more exotic will cost you at least 50$ including 220$ for a life skills class.

Students at Michigan only pay their student activity fee (95$) and have access to all fitness centers and have similar tuition bills.

Despite my disclaimer that I was talking only about hockey-playing Ivy schools, your comparable Ivy experience at the Palestra costs students 75$ and includes:
-Exclusive giveaway items, including: Foam noodles, mini-hoop sets, megaphone, fan banner, and foam Quaker hat
-Red & Blue Crew t-shirt
-$1 hot dogs from one (1) hour before tip to 15 minutes before tip, when you are wearing your Red & Blue Crew t-shirt
-Free Qdoba taco to the first 50 students in the section at each game
-Automatic enrollment in the Red & Blue Rewards program
-Opportunity to win access to "Class of '71" hospitality area
-Raffles to win items and experiences such as: team gear, autographed items, lunch with Coach Miller and the team, free tickets to away games including Princeton, sitting behind the team bench, watching closed team practices, playing a pick-up game at The Palestra, as well as a few surprise perks.

It would be great if these 'free' facilities were actually ever available, especially during the winter months when Ithaca' outdoor activities are generally not accessible. Barton is used for indoor track, intramural basketball, and military maneuvers. Teagle and Helen Newman have pool hours for only 6 hours a day and only 90 minutes per day after normal classes end at 4.10 for a population of 34,000+.

Compare all this to UPenn's 250$/year fitness complex which makes Teagle look like a prison recreation facility:
http://www.upenn.edu/recreation/facilities/

Why can't J. Andrew seek more money for all the students (even the ones that swear like sailors) instead of a select few when he's groveling for money from alumni?

Two words Tom: Gender Equity.

Softball seems to be doing just fine for a sport that is 2 miles from central campus where they can have larger facilities in a less cramped space.

[quote Townie][quote Tom Tone]
The loss of alumni fields to academic buildings is tolerable, yet I don't see the reason why they built a field hockey 'stadium' on them instead of out in the new athletics area near E. Hill Plaza. Softball, tennis, squash, and polo seem to have no problems out there. This goes along with the utter lack of open space for non-athlete students.  Since they can't use alumni fields or Jessup fields, they are relegated to the Appel fields which are often used by club sports or reserved in some other manner.[/quote]

Two words Tom: Gender Equity.  The university needs to demonstrate compliance with Title IX, and being that field hockey is a women's sport, this probably counts as a women's initiative.  Placing it off campus might have pissed off the Title IX advocates, possibly giving rise to a lawsuit.  Example of Title IX: many years ago Cornell had both women's and men's gymnastics teams.  Athletics decided to drop the sport, but threats of a Title IX lawsuit prompted Cornell to retain the women's program.  As an aside, for the second time in three years, Cornell women's gymnastics scored the highest finish for a non-scholarship program in the history of the USGA Collegiate Nationals, placing SECOND in the finals while producing seven All-Americans.  This is a prime example of a Title IX success story, and another example of recent Athletics' success.[/quote]

What? Building a facility for a women's sport near other athletic facilities is a violation of Title IX now? Surely you jest.

[quote Townie]Nice!  Love the assumptions about what I do and don't know, and about what I want for Cornell athletics.  Actually, I've been in meetings at the Executive level with Athletics and have heard the concerns from the VP's mouth.  This is a university concern now as it was during Rawlings' term.[/quote]


[quote Chris]Good for you. Would you like a medal?[/quote]

[quote Townie]
Merely responding to your comment that "...you've never actually interacted with these people or witnessed the way they handle their business."  The fact is I have far more interaction with "these people" than you, and I know the real source of many of the initiatives for which you (and others) rush to place on Andy & Co..  Now, you can either belittle me and marginalize yourself, or learn something from someone who has first-hand background information on many Athletics' issues.  

How about a shrubbery instead of a medal?  :-D[/quote]

Matching assumptions with assumption, eh? Good form! Of course you have the benefit of knowing exactly who I am but all I know about you is that you go to hockey games. Presuming you have dealt with these folks (or for all I know you are one of these folks) I'll concede your assertion as fact and amend my above conditional statement to say that [one who apologizes for this administration] either never actually interacted with these people or you has a really low bar for professionalism.


[quote Chris]Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE WINNING. IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THIS CONVERSATION.[/quote]
[quote Townie]
I don't think it's irrelevant.  This conversation (like many that involve Athletics' decisions) quickly devolved into Andy-bashing and calls for his dismissal.  My goal here is both to share background information I possess about the issue under discussion and to point out some of Cornell's successes under his administration.  Fair and balanced.  Also, you SCREAM that you don't care about winning, but if he were not winning, I suspect your position would change, and rightfully so.
[/quote]
You miss the point entirely. I think the way Andy & Co. deal with people is embarrassing to the university. The several public shouting matches I've personally witnessed Andy himself get involved with is reason enough to be embarrassed. Let alone the work of the associates. If I have to chose between winning more in that environment and winning less in another environment, I'll take winning less. There are many components to success as an AD. Winning is one but not the only one. If he was a saint but lost all the time, he'd be out. If he's a horrible person but wins, he should be out too.


[quote Chris '03]Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.
[/quote]
[quote Townie]
The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology.  My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.
[/quote]
You've missed my point. And besides, by all accounts there's zero tolerance for apologies on the other side of the rink.

[quote Townie]
Believe me, Susan Murphy has heard all the "baseless accusations" against this administration, so either she's an idiot or they were truly baseless.  Knowing Susan, she is extremely intelligent and effective.  If Andy & Co, is as bad as you suggest, they'd be long gone.  
[/quote]
[quote Chris '03]
I think you need to reread my post. I'm not sure what baseless accusations you're referring too.
[/quote]
[quote Townie]
I'm referring to the constant stream of baseless accusations heaped on the AD from students and others.
[/quote]

I'm referring to the baseless accusations made against me personally, friends of mine, and the band when I represented it.

[quote Chris '03]Do they really endorse HIM or the program? I'm willing to bet plenty of donors would still donate if the AD were a rock.[/quote]

QuoteI agree that "plenty of donors" would still contribute, but if the wealthy influential donors had legitimate cause not to support Andy, he'd be out.  Period.  If coaches felt he was ineffective at providing them a chance to compete, they'd move on and he'd be out.   He's been here since 1999.  CU Athletics has enjoyed historic levels of success during his tenure, both win/loss and programmatic.  Granted, he did not do this in a vacuum, but the fact that he continues to receive support from institutional insiders leads me to believe he's doing a lot of things right.  Overall, he's doing a very good job in a very difficult environment.  Again, maybe not perfect, but very good.

Very good at schmoozing and influencing donors. Good for him. Sign him up for the development office. I'm glad coaches seem comfortable enough to stay. Several of them have told me they detest the way the department treats students. But from the coach's perspective, it is all about winning. That's all he is measured against. The AD should be measured against more than won loss record. But that may be be my fragile idealist viewpoint speaking or the selfish idea that I shouldn't be treated like a nuisance to be eliminated and I should deal with the crap that comes with winning.

[quote TimV][quote Flyers1037]I have seen a steady diminish in the way that athletics has treated us, and won't be donating anything to them.  Ever.[/quote]

If your writing skills don't improve your charitable foundation will suffer.::whistle::[/quote]

I might have been a little bit inebriated when writing that... and to return the favor, FYP.

QuoteIt would be great if these 'free' facilities were actually ever available, especially during the winter months when Ithaca' outdoor activities are generally not accessible. Barton is used for indoor track, intramural basketball, and military maneuvers. Teagle and Helen Newman have pool hours for only 6 hours a day and only 90 minutes per day after normal classes end at 4.10 for a population of 34,000+.

Your experience may be different to mine, but I seem to remember absolutely no trouble swimming in Helen Newman, playing basketball on West, or running the indoor track during the allotted time periods. That would strike me as the definition of 'available'. I also seem to remember nobody stopping me and asking me to pay money when I went cross-country skiing and snowshoeing in the Plantations or when I would take a mid-February jog around Cayuga Heights.

And frankly, I was happy that I didn't have to pay money to subsidize the use of elliptical machines.

Now, would it be nice if Cornell had an Olympic size pool and another indoor track facility? Hell yes. In fact, I'm pretty certain both Athletics and Development have been trying to aggressively fundraise for an expansion to Helen Newman hall for the last decade. Just because a new natatorium hasn't been built, while a new wrestling center has, doesn't mean that Athletics doesn't have the interest in the non-scholar athlete at heart. Friedman wanted a wrestling center, and so he gave money for a Wrestling center. It's not a zero sum game. At the end of the day, if you don't like what's available, why not join a fundraising committee to improve the quality of athletic offerings on campus?

QuoteDespite my disclaimer that I was talking only about hockey-playing Ivy schools, your comparable Ivy experience at the Palestra costs students 75$ and includes..

Yes. Penn basketball is the only thing that approaches Cornell hockey in terms of student demand, aside from the Harvard-Yale game. But as I mentioned, even the Palestra is half empty for most games during the Ivy season. So to a certain extent, ticket prices will naturally reflect demand.

Should Athletics be offering a better environment to students at Lynah? Of course.  Would it be great if Cornell had better gyms and pools? Of course. But the suggestion that athletic involvement at Cornell will be $2500 more expensive than at any other Ivy is completely baseless.

QuoteYes, there are some gym classes that are free. Swimming, basketball, volleyball, Israeli dance, badminton, Tai Chi, walking, jogging, and a few mind and body things.

But thanks for proving my point. And I take my statement back. You obviously did know what you were talking about, but you chose to omit the relevant and pertinent information that would have discredited your argument.

Got me.::demented::

QuoteI think the way Andy & Co. deal with people is embarrassing to the university. The several public shouting matches I've personally witnessed Andy himself get involved with is reason enough to be embarrassed. Let alone the work of the associates.

Without commenting on the larger issues at hand, I have to agree with Chris on this one.  I've seen Athletics staff literally get up in individual fans' faces to shout at them for their behavior.  Right or wrong, they only belittle themselves by doing this.  It's not quite of the same magnitude as the Armand Hill incident at Newman about 7 years ago, but it's close (and how that guy didn't get fired immediately for that is beyond me... Imus got fired for about the similar comments, although they were racist, not homophobic).

What was this Armand Hill incident?  I can't find anything in the archives.

Sorry for the long links, had to look for cached versions.
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:pYPDVWpjhp4J:robots.cnnsi.com/basketball/college/men/news/2002/172uwire1/+%22columbia+coach+apologizes%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a


http://www.gaysports.com/page.cfm?Sectionid=11&typeofsite=snippetdetail&ID=20&snippetset=yes


Occurred before elf and wasn't hockey related.

Thread drift complete?

[quote BCrespi]What was this Armand Hill incident?  I can't find anything in the archives.[/quote]

http://www.columbiaspectator.com/2002/01/29/coach-hill-apologizes-cornell-altercation

Thanks guys.  I promise, my Google's not broken, I just looked up Armand, not Armond, as the earlier post stated, and it was certainly not a searched enough query to help me out, in that regard.

[quote Jordan 04]

QuoteTownie]
[quote Chris '03]Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology.  My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.[/quote]

Interesting. It seems as though this would buttress the arguments that the AD's policies continue to treat the students unfairly and unequally.

There haven't been many stories of a student's swearing being followed up with a "good old-fashioned apology".  It is instead followed up with being accosted by a half-deaf usher who may or may not have heard the student correctly, and a subsequent ejection from the rink.[/quote]

Jordan:  The point is, in reponse to Chris' specious comment, that I've heard virtually no swearing from townies.  When someone did swear within obvious ear-shot of my child, he promptly apologized to my child and me.  That's how civilized people behave.  

By the way, how do you know he's half-deaf?  Because he's older?  That appears prejudicial and discrimminatory to me.  Kind of like calling you a "dumb kid" because you're under 30.  Doesn't play very well, does it?

[quote Tom Tone]Two words Tom: Gender Equity.

Softball seems to be doing just fine for a sport that is 2 miles from central campus where they can have larger facilities in a less cramped space.[/quote]Yes Tom, but recognize that moving Field Hockey away from central campus would be perceived (by Title IXers) as a take-away.  Seems silly, but that's the mentality.  I believe softball started out there, didn't they?

[quote Townie][quote Jordan 04]

QuoteTownie]
[quote Chris '03]Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology.  My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.[/quote]

Interesting. It seems as though this would buttress the arguments that the AD's policies continue to treat the students unfairly and unequally.

There haven't been many stories of a student's swearing being followed up with a "good old-fashioned apology".  It is instead followed up with being accosted by a half-deaf usher who may or may not have heard the student correctly, and a subsequent ejection from the rink.[/quote]

Jordan:  The point is, in reponse to Chris' specious comment, that I've heard virtually no swearing from townies.  When someone did swear within obvious ear-shot of my child, he promptly apologized to my child and me.  That's how civilized people behave.  

By the way, how do you know he's half-deaf?  Because he's older?  That appears prejudicial and discrimminatory to me.  Kind of like calling you a "dumb kid" because you're under 30.  Doesn't play very well, does it?[/quote]

Townie: the point is you can say, "Fuck you ref" three feet from a child on the townie side and not get kicked out. But if you say "Fuck you ref" from the opposite side of the rink with a near zero chance the child will hear you, there's zero tolerance and you are thrown out and maybe lose your tickets all together. And my "specious" comment was simply taking your pro-bludgeon logic to it's natural conclusion. You wouldn't like it if you got tossed because the guy near you dropped an F-bomb or because you said something that resembled a swear (like puck) but you don't mind it when some kid on the other side gets tossed.

[quote Townie][quote Tom Tone]Two words Tom: Gender Equity.

Softball seems to be doing just fine for a sport that is 2 miles from central campus where they can have larger facilities in a less cramped space.[/quote]Yes Tom, but recognize that moving Field Hockey away from central campus would be perceived (by Title IXers) as a take-away.  Seems silly, but that's the mentality.  I believe softball started out there, didn't they?[/quote]

Yes, I'm sure some Title IX lunatic will sue Cornell because they invested in a field hockey only facility that is several times over better than the arrangement they leave behind on central campus. It's like saying, "gee thanks for the cadillac, but why is the parking space so far away?"

And if Title IX is so high on everyone's mind, then the wrestling facility should be out in east hill as a set off for women's sports out there.

For the sake of completeness:
From:http://www.rso.cornell.edu/BRPep/page/media.html (no guarantee the links below still work)

From the Armond Hill Debacle:

Thursday, January 31, 2002
Ugly stuff from the Ivy League
The coach and the pep band

Some try to paint Ivy League athletics as pure and proper, a model of decorum and/or the last great hope of Western civilization.
In reality, it's often gritty and subject to the hyper-competitiveness that can warp sports at any level.
A recent basketball game between Cornell and Columbia won't be remembered for anything noble, but an unfortunate exchange between Columbia's coach, Armond Hill, and a member of Cornell's Pep Band, Chad Potocky. What has further tainted the incident in recent days is the spin out of New York City.
At the game in question, members of the band were giving Hill a hard time for arguing with game officials, telling him to sit down and that he was a "dumb coach." Near the end of the first half, Hill -- in the middle of another harangue at the refs that drew jeers from the band -- left the coaching box and challenged Potocky, with, "What did you say to me? Come on, say it to my face."
When Potocky declined to get into it with the coach, Hill said, "That's what I thought, ------," using a word derogatory to homosexuals.
After the game, Hill apologized and said he shouldn't have approached the band, which sits on five-row bleachers behind one of the baskets. Potocky told The Journal that Cornell police asked if he wanted to file harassment charges against Hill, but he declined.
It would have been appropriate if Columbia had been a little tougher with Hill, other than saying he apologized, case closed. There are a lot of words somebody can use in anger that aren't as offensive. But Columbia officials not only declined to publicly criticize Hill, but took off after Cornell and where the band sits.
"I think the location of the (Cornell) band is unconscionable and frankly is something that we would never do here at Columbia," said the university's Athletic Director John Reeves in an interview with the Columbia Daily Spectator. "When people come to our place, we want to provide a hospitable environment where they are our guests. We don't do it through confrontation and we never will, we'd rather lose."
A wise guy might add, "Which is something you're quite good at." What's more obvious is Reeves' shallow attempt to take the heat off his Hill and lay it on East Hill.
Unconscionable? We're talking about where a pep band sits, not Enron's management policies. Unfortunately, Columbia analyzed this incident through Lion eyes, instead of making a point about wretched behavior that didn't speak well for the Ivy League.
http://www.theithacajournal.com/news/stories/20020131/opinion/1561197.html


Columbia Coach Issues Apology for Using Slur
Newsday; Long Island, N.Y.; Jan 31, 2002; Arthur V. Claps. STAFF WRITER;


Full Text:
(Copyright Newsday Inc., 2002)
Columbia men's basketball coach Armond Hill issued a public apology yesterday following an incident in which he shouted a slur at a Cornell pep band member during Saturday's game at Cornell.
"My response to the band was wrong, and I admit that," Hill said in a statement released by the university. "Being in the heat of competition does not justify my actions. I apologized to the member of the band after the game, and we walked away with no hard feelings."
Hill wasn't available for further comment.
Columbia athletic director John Reeves, who said a copy of Hill's statement was sent to Cornell, said he would not disclose whether the university took disciplinary action against Hill.
"I have accepted his apology," said Reeves, who learned of the incident Saturday when he received an e-mail from a member of the Cornell marching band. The incident was first reported Sunday by Columbia's student newspaper, the Spectator. Reeves met with Hill on Monday and yesterday. "Personnel remedies have been taken of which I don't have the liberty to disclose and Armond will be on the sideline this weekend...I am sure this behavior will not reoccur."
Apparently, the sixth-year coach was angry with the band members' comments during Columbia's 54-42 win over Cornell.
According to band member Chad Potocky, Hill erupted when the band got on the coach for arguing a foul call just before the half. Potocky said that Hill approached him and asked him to repeat the comments to his face. Potocky didn't respond and Hill said, "That's what I thought," adding an expletive.
"I was really surprised," Potocky said. "I didn't think we were saying anything that derogatory. We can't say anything bad. The worst thing we said the whole night was 'dumb coach.' But you don't think a coach would actually respond to that. It was completely unprofessional.
"Personally, I wasn't really offended by it. But other members of the band were. There were at least [40] witnesses. There were even kids there. Some don't want this to end so easily. They want him to get reprimanded, which he hasn't."

Published on January 31, 2002
Hill Apologizes For Behavior

The Columbia Daily Spectator received the following letter from Men's Basketball Head Coach Armond Hill Wednesday afternoon. Coach Hill's letter is in response to an incident at last Saturday's game between Cornell and Columbia in Ithaca, N.Y, during which Hill responded to jeering from members of the Cornell pep band by approaching the group and exchanging words with a member of the group. During the exchange, Hill referred to the individual as a "faggot."
Athletic Director John Reeves responded to the incident Monday by saying that Hill had apologized to the members of the band and acknowledged that his behavior was inappropriate. As such, Reeves said he considers the subject resolved.
January 30, 2002
To the Communities of Columbia and Cornell Universities,
I sincerely apologize for the inappropriate and offensive dialogue that came from me during an interaction between myself and members of the Cornell band last Saturday evening.
My choice of words was thoughtless and offensive.
This kind of behavior is unacceptable, and is not representative of me or the way I think or conduct myself on a daily basis.
I hope you accept my apology, along with a promise that this will never happen again.
Respectfully,
Armond Hill
Men's Basketball Coach
Columbia University
http://www.columbiaspectator.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/01/31/3c590e2728d25

Monday, January 28, 2002
Columbia coach loses his cool
By CHRISTOPHER FEAVER
Journal Staff

Columbia seventh-year head men's basketball coach Armond Hill allegedly called a member of the Cornell Pep Band a word derogatory to homosexuals during Saturday's game between the Lions and Cornell at Newman Arena.
The incident took place with four seconds remaining in the first half, with the score tied 23-23 and as Cornell player Jacques Vigneault was getting ready to shoot three foul shots after being fouled.
Hill, who had been on his feet shouting at officials for much of the first half, walked off the Columbia bench and went behind the baseline near the basket where Vigneault was about to shoot and verbally confronted members of the Cornell Pep Band.
In response to something said by senior pep band member Chad Potocky, Hill said, 'That's what I thought you said, ----," according to Potocky and several members of the pep band.
"I was yelling at him because I disagreed with him on the (Vigneault) call," said Potocky, who was sitting in the top row of the five-row bleachers behind the basket. "I was telling him to sit down. Then I said he was a dumb coach. Then he came over and said 'What did you say to me? Come on, say it to my face.'"
"I said, 'Look, go sit down.' That's when he said, 'That's what I thought you said, ----.'"
When asked after the game about what happened near the end of the first half, Hill said he did not want to comment, but added, "I made a mistake and I shouldn't have gone over there. But I will write the guy and apologize to him."
The pep band had been verbally riding Hill through much of the first half, saying "mostly sit down and shut up," according to Cornell Pep Band Manager Chris Parkin.
"He was all over the referees in the first half and we were basically all over him in response to get him off the referees," Parkin said. "We told him to sit down and shut up, basically sticking to those few words. We did not use any derogatory language."
Saturday's Columbia game was the first attended by a full contingent of the pep band this season. The band normally plays for Big Red hockey games in the winter, but was at the basketball game due to a men's/women's doubleheader and Employee Night, which drew 2,106 fans to Newman, by far the largest crowd of the season.
After the incident, Potocky said Cornell police wanted to know if he wanted to file harassment charges against Hill. But he refused.
Both Hill and the pep band were relatively quiet in the second half, which Columbia dominated on the way to a 54-42 win.
http://ithacajournal.com/news/stories/20020128/localsports/1543215.html

Jeering Cornell Pep Band Provokes Hill Outburst
Hill said he would apologize to a member of the Cornell Big Red Pep Band after verbal altercation.
By Josh Fay-Hurvitz
Spectator Senior Staff Writer
/vnews/display.v?TARGET=showImage&article_id=3c55192c6e760&image_num=1/vnews/display.v?TARGET=showImage&article_id=3c55192c6e760&image_num=1
Columbia Men's Basketball Coach Armond Hill

Near the end of the first half of Columbia's 54-42 win over Cornell on Saturday, Head Men's Basketball Coach Armond Hill engaged in a heated exchange with members of the Cornell University Big Red Pep Band.
In the course of the exchange, band manager Chris Parkin, Cornell '03, alleges that Hill directed his comments at one member of the band and called him a "faggot."
The incident is also reported in today's issue of the Cornell Daily Sun. The Spectator has learned that the band member in question was Chad Potocky, Cornell '02, who confirmed the event had taken place.
Following a play in which junior forward Marco McCottry was called for a foul, Hill left the Columbia bench and approached the band, seated in the stands on the baseline adjacent to the Lions' bench. Hill, who had been complaining to the refereeing crew about that and other calls, apparently took offense to some of the comments made by band members and left the coaching box in the final seconds of the half to confront the group. Hill and Potocky then exchanged words. As the half expired, Hill left the court.
According to Parkin, he band was chanting at Hill to "sit down" and "shut up." Parkin and Potocky allege that Hill challenged Potocky, the loudest member of the band at the time, to repeat his comments to Hill's face.
When Potocky refused, the two claim that Hill said, "That's what I thought, faggot."
"It's fairly standard," Parkin said of the band's jeering. "When a coach gets into it with a ref, we get into it with him."
After the game, when asked about the altercation in general, Hill told the Spectator his version of the event.
"Right before halftime there was one gentleman that was singling me out, yelling at me, and calling me names that I didn't think were fair, and so I went over to him, and I said, ëWhy don't you come down to me and say it to me?' and he didn't, and I said, ëJust what I thought.' And, you know, I probably cursed at him, and that's what got everyone all riled up.... I should not have went over there, but if I see the kid, I will apologize." Hill could not be reached for comment about the specific incident late Sunday night.
Once the half had ended, Assistant Coach Walter Townes and the referees met at the scorer's table, where Townes pointed Potocky out to the three-man crew. Additionally, Parkin discussed the incident with the referees, officials from the Cornell athletic department, and several officers from Cornell police during halftime, but no official complaints were lodged against Hill.
Potocky claims that he was asked by Cornell police if he wanted to press charges against Hill for violating Cornell's code of conduct but declined. Spectator could neither confirm the violation nor the offer.
The second half of the game began as scheduled, and the game was completed without incident.
When approached by Parkin after the game and asked to apologize to the student in question, Hill agreed to do so and took the student's contact information. Hill also verbally apologized to Parkin, and the two men shook hands.
http://www.columbiaspectator.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/01/28/3c55192c6e760

Hill Apologizes for Offensive Words
Columbia head basketball coach sends letter of apology to communities

By AMANDA ANGEL

Armond Hill, Columbia University's head men's basketball coach, officially apologized to the Cornell and Columbia communities after making offensive remarks to a Cornell pep band member. During the Cornell men's basketball game last Saturday at Newman Arena, Hill called senior trombonist Chad Potocky "a faggot," in response to heckling from the band member.

In a letter addressed to the communities of Columbia and Cornell Universities, Hill admited his mistakes, calling his remarks "inappropriate," "thoughtless," and "offensive."

"This kind of behavior is unacceptable," he continued, "and is not representative of me or the way I think or conduct myself on a daily basis."

The verbal altercation occured after Cornell junior Jacques Vigneault was fouled while shooting a 3-pointer. Hill argued the call with the officials as the pep band continued its usual heckling.

Hill alleged that he heard derogatory cheers from members of the band and confronted Potocky, asking him to repeat his remarks. When Potocky refused, Hill said, "That's what I thought, faggot."

Potocky has declined to take any legal action. Cornell does not seem to be pursuing the situation further, although it is expected to be a topic of discussion at the Ivy League conference which began Tuesday. Cornell Athletic Director Andy Noel has yet to issue an official statement .

This apology comes two days after Hill presented a written apology to the Columbia and Cornell Athletic Departments. According to The Columbia Spectator, Athletic Director John Reeves has accepted Hill's statement and declared the issue closed.

http://cornelldailysun.com/perl/getArticle.pl?id=4384


MONDAY, JANUARY 28, 2002

M. Hoops Falls To Columbia

By SUMEET SARIN

In an example of a strange trend that has been gaining national attention, Columbia's head coach Armond Hill was caught in an altercation with a member of the Cornell pep band at the end of the first half. According to junior manager Chris Parkin, coach Hill called pep band member Chad Potocky a "faggot" in response to the heckling Hill had been receiving for arguing with the referees.

According to Parkin, "[Hill] came over to [Potocky] who was sort of on his own at that point saying, 'Sit down -- whatever', so the coach comes over and says, 'Excuse me, what did you say? You want to say it to my face?' and [Potocky] basically says, 'Go sit down, calm down, coach the game.' and [Hill] says, 'Yeah, that's what I thought, faggot' and that is personally offensive to myself, the person it was addressed to, the four little kids sitting directly to my left, and the 20 fifth graders sitting behind the Columbia bench."

After the game, coach Hill did not comment on the incident, but admitted his fault, "I made a mistake and I'll write him an apology."

Coach's derogatory words prompt response

To the Editor:

I believe that Columbia University's head coach Armond Hill owes a public apology to the Cornell community as well as to pep band member Chad Potocky '02. As a Cornell student present at the game, I took personal offense to Hill's specific use of the word "faggot" at the game (Sports, M. Hoops Falls to Columbia, Jan. 28, 2002). Whether or not the coach intentionally chose that word, he should remember that his actions represent Columbia.

As a person who has ties to both University communities, I am disappointed that such a highly esteemed member of Columbia could be so thoughtless. Even if Hill's remark was truly only an unintentional outburst, it reveals the potential of more deeply held convictions on his part. His comments were also clearly audible to several children under the age of 12, who may not be able to tell the difference between an alleged unintentional outburst and an actual insult.

The Cornell community has worked hard to create a welcoming atmosphere at sporting events for everybody. Hill owes all of us who take pride in this atmosphere an apology.
-- Rachel Diana Goldstein '03

[quote Tom Tone][quote mnagowski] Last time I checked the PE department offered numerous courses for free, most of the Ivies levy a student activity fee, Penn charges their students for basketball tickets (the only comparable Ivy sporting experience) despite the fact that the Palestra is rarely at capacity, and if everybody was given "free" access to the fitness centers tuition would simply just go up in kind.

Besides, many of the pools, tracks, fields, and gyms are already free and open to students, to say nothing of the various outdoor pursuits that Ithaca offers.

It would be nice if people knew what they were talking about before they started to complain.[/quote]

Since my research methods are being called into question, I'll offer up some evidence that I do in fact know what I am talking about. My large issue is that while J. Andrew's spending orgy in pursuit of Ivy titles (even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey), the experience for the non-student athlete is dismal. [/quote]

Tom, Ivy titles are awarded in lax and hockey.  Check it out:
http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/champs.asp

Some downplay the importance of an Ivy, but not the athletes or coaches who bust their butts to compete.  It certainly doesn't have the prestige of an ECAC or national title, but it is a relevant measure of success as it presents a level playing among the schools.

[quote Tom Tone]
Yes, there are some gym classes that are free. Swimming, basketball, volleyball, Israeli dance, badminton, Tai Chi, walking, jogging, and a few mind and body things. Anything more exotic will cost you at least 50$ including 220$ for a life skills class.
[/quote]
Look, you can't have everything.  The PE offerings were expanded in response to student demand.  Department budget constraints required imposition of fees for certain courses.  I highly recommend the pistol class.  Make sure you get in Al Gantert's section!

[quote Tom Tone]
Students at Michigan only pay their student activity fee (95$) and have access to all fitness centers and have similar tuition bills.

Despite my disclaimer that I was talking only about hockey-playing Ivy schools, your comparable Ivy experience at the Palestra costs students 75$ and includes:
-Exclusive giveaway items, including: Foam noodles, mini-hoop sets, megaphone, fan banner, and foam Quaker hat
-Red & Blue Crew t-shirt
-$1 hot dogs from one (1) hour before tip to 15 minutes before tip, when you are wearing your Red & Blue Crew t-shirt
-Free Qdoba taco to the first 50 students in the section at each game
-Automatic enrollment in the Red & Blue Rewards program
-Opportunity to win access to "Class of '71" hospitality area
-Raffles to win items and experiences such as: team gear, autographed items, lunch with Coach Miller and the team, free tickets to away games including Princeton, sitting behind the team bench, watching closed team practices, playing a pick-up game at The Palestra, as well as a few surprise perks.

It would be great if these 'free' facilities were actually ever available, especially during the winter months when Ithaca' outdoor activities are generally not accessible. Barton is used for indoor track, intramural basketball, and military maneuvers. Teagle and Helen Newman have pool hours for only 6 hours a day and only 90 minutes per day after normal classes end at 4.10 for a population of 34,000+.

Compare all this to UPenn's 250$/year fitness complex which makes Teagle look like a prison recreation facility:
http://www.upenn.edu/recreation/facilities/

Why can't J. Andrew seek more money for all the students (even the ones that swear like sailors) instead of a select few when he's groveling for money from alumni?[/quote]


Tom:  Believe me when I say Andy has enough trouble figuring out how to provide University mandated (yet under-funded) pay increases, let alone other give-aways.  Your jaw would drop if you knew how much (or little!) support Athletics gets from Day Hall.  It's not that Day Hall doesn't support Athletics (in fact they do), but they don't have the money either.

[quote Townie][quote Jordan 04]

QuoteTownie]
[quote Chris '03]Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology.  My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.[/quote]

Interesting. It seems as though this would buttress the arguments that the AD's policies continue to treat the students unfairly and unequally.

There haven't been many stories of a student's swearing being followed up with a "good old-fashioned apology".  It is instead followed up with being accosted by a half-deaf usher who may or may not have heard the student correctly, and a subsequent ejection from the rink.[/quote]

Jordan:  The point is, in reponse to Chris' specious comment, that I've heard virtually no swearing from townies.  When someone did swear within obvious ear-shot of my child, he promptly apologized to my child and me.  That's how civilized people behave.  

By the way, how do you know he's half-deaf?  Because he's older?  That appears prejudicial and discrimminatory to me.  Kind of like calling you a "dumb kid" because you're under 30.  Doesn't play very well, does it?[/quote]

And as a student I heard very little swearing from students around me.  But, as Chris said a couple of posts later, there are no Get Out of Jail Free apologies on our side. Unfair, unequal treatment.

I'm being discriminatory? I said nothing about anyone being older and thus being deaf. Seems as though you are the one being prejudicial in coming to such conclusions. I know many to be half-deaf based on my own eyewitness accounts as well all the additional stories that emerge of students being kicked out for not cursing at all, but for saying such dirty little words as "rough," because hey, among 3,000 other screaming fans, it sounded like "fuck" to an usher!  

So all of these occurrences would make them either: a) deaf, b) liars, or c) pawns of the AD, charged with making indiscriminate ejections of students based on what they think they might have heard. I'll be overwhelmingly generous and give them the benefit of the doubt that it's (a).

Wow.  Thanks.  Consider me caught up.

[quote Townie][quote Tom Tone](even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey)[/quote]

Tom, Ivy titles are awarded in lax and hockey.  Check it out:
http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/champs.asp[/quote]

Townie, show me where Columbia and Penn are in hockey and where Columbia is in lacrosse.

[quote Chris '03][quote Townie][quote Jordan 04]

QuoteTownie]
[quote Chris '03]Then since there is cursing coming from the townie side too, let's throw out folks in the vicinity of cursing there too. Sorry if that means you get the heave ho too, Townie. You're guilty by association.

The only swearing I ever heard in my section was followed by a good old-fashioned apology.  My take is most students are willing to respect the desires of the administration, and I'm talking University desires as executed by Athletics.[/quote]

Interesting. It seems as though this would buttress the arguments that the AD's policies continue to treat the students unfairly and unequally.

There haven't been many stories of a student's swearing being followed up with a "good old-fashioned apology".  It is instead followed up with being accosted by a half-deaf usher who may or may not have heard the student correctly, and a subsequent ejection from the rink.[/quote]

Jordan:  The point is, in reponse to Chris' specious comment, that I've heard virtually no swearing from townies.  When someone did swear within obvious ear-shot of my child, he promptly apologized to my child and me.  That's how civilized people behave.  

By the way, how do you know he's half-deaf?  Because he's older?  That appears prejudicial and discrimminatory to me.  Kind of like calling you a "dumb kid" because you're under 30.  Doesn't play very well, does it?[/quote]

Townie: the point is you can say, "Fuck you ref" three feet from a child on the townie side and not get kicked out. But if you say "Fuck you ref" from the opposite side of the rink with a near zero chance the child will hear you, there's zero tolerance and you are thrown out and maybe lose your tickets all together. And my "specious" comment was simply taking your pro-bludgeon logic to it's natural conclusion. You wouldn't like it if you got tossed because the guy near you dropped an F-bomb or because you said something that resembled a swear (like puck) but you don't mind it when some kid on the other side gets tossed.[/quote]

Chris:  any swearing that may occur in townie-land is not part of a standard cheer screamed by hundreds of people who are within ear-shot of Section C Brass and the radio microphone.  I think this issue is about school image and respect for others, including those who make the rules (Athletics).

There's a simple solution: Respect the wishes of those who make the rules and don't swear (not referring to you specifically), even if you don't like the rulemakers or disagree with the rule.  I'm not suggesting people blindly follow what they are told; this isn't Nazi Germany.  But if students showed "maturity" by respecting the reasonable request of those in-charge, I suspect those in-charge would be more understanding of the occasional F-bomb.  Instead, some students are calling Athletics' bluff, and since they have the power, Athletics is forced to enforce their policy. Sadly, there is "collateral damage".  But in my view, the students are bringing this upon themselves.

Again, I'm not making excuses for Andy & Co., and I'm sure much of what you say is true.  But I believe if you taunt the dog, don't complain when it bites.

[quote Chris '03][quote Townie][quote Tom Tone]Two words Tom: Gender Equity.

Softball seems to be doing just fine for a sport that is 2 miles from central campus where they can have larger facilities in a less cramped space.[/quote]Yes Tom, but recognize that moving Field Hockey away from central campus would be perceived (by Title IXers) as a take-away.  Seems silly, but that's the mentality.  I believe softball started out there, didn't they?[/quote]

Yes, I'm sure some Title IX lunatic will sue Cornell because they invested in a field hockey only facility that is several times over better than the arrangement they leave behind on central campus. It's like saying, "gee thanks for the cadillac, but why is the parking space so far away?"

And if Title IX is so high on everyone's mind, then the wrestling facility should be out in east hill as a set off for women's sports out there.[/quote]
Off topic: To be sure, the Wrestling Facility does not help with the Title IX compliance, which highlights the flaws in the measurement process.  With respect to this, I believe two women, who were disturbed by males losing opportunities in the name of Title IX, began a petition to modify the compliance measurement.

[quote CowbellGuy][quote Townie][quote Tom Tone](even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey)[/quote]

Tom, Ivy titles are awarded in lax and hockey.  Check it out:
http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/champs.asp[/quote]

Townie, show me where Columbia and Penn are in hockey and where Columbia is in lacrosse.[/quote]

Age: Clearly all schools competing is not a pre-requisite for granting an Ivy title:  http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/ivy-champs.asp?intSID=8

Notice that the title is "All-Time Ivy Champions" (ice hockey), even though Columbia and Penn don't (or no longer) compete.  It's also interesting that the title history precedes the formal league formation.  So when people say the Ivy title doesn't matter, talk to coaches who get bonuses for winning it!

[quote Townie][quote CowbellGuy][quote Townie][quote Tom Tone](even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey)[/quote]

Tom, Ivy titles are awarded in lax and hockey.  Check it out:
http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/champs.asp[/quote]

Townie, show me where Columbia and Penn are in hockey and where Columbia is in lacrosse.[/quote]

Age: Clearly all schools competing is not a pre-requisite for granting an Ivy title:  http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/ivy-champs.asp?intSID=8

Notice that the title is "All-Time Ivy Champions" (ice hockey), even though Columbia and Penn don't (or no longer) compete.  It's also interesting that the title history precedes the formal league formation.  So when people say the Ivy title doesn't matter, talk to coaches who get bonuses for winning it![/quote]

Read it all again. Slowly.

[quote Chris '03]Read it all again. Slowly.[/quote]
I've read it - both quickly and slowly - and I'll be damned if I know what point Tom Tone was trying to make by noting that money is put into sports that don't have 8 Ivy League competitors. Hockey, lax and wrestling are sports that generate actual attendance and in which the school is nationally competitive. What difference does it make if Yale chooses not to field a wrestling team?

[quote Chris '03][quote Townie][quote CowbellGuy][quote Townie][quote Tom Tone](even titles that not all the Ivies compete for - lax, hockey)[/quote]

Tom, Ivy titles are awarded in lax and hockey.  Check it out:
http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/champs.asp[/quote]

Townie, show me where Columbia and Penn are in hockey and where Columbia is in lacrosse.[/quote]

Age: Clearly all schools competing is not a pre-requisite for granting an Ivy title:  http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/ivy-champs.asp?intSID=8

Notice that the title is "All-Time Ivy Champions" (ice hockey), even though Columbia and Penn don't (or no longer) compete.  It's also interesting that the title history precedes the formal league formation.  So when people say the Ivy title doesn't matter, talk to coaches who get bonuses for winning it![/quote]

Read it all again. Slowly.[/quote]

Thanks, Chris.  My mistake.  ::blush::

This Armond Hill thing brings up an interesting point.  Hill used a word that some found offensive.  Not everybody is offended by that word (e.g., Potocky), yet some students, at whom the word was not even directed, took offense to it.  The use of that word in public has been greatly curtailed, I'm guessing out of respect for those offended.  I don't know if that word is illegal, but societal mores have marked this word as inappropriate.

On the other hand, we have a group of students who use a word that is offensive to some (many?) as part of a standard cheer in a similar venue.  Yet when asked to stop using it, some students persist.  I understand that much of this thread involves the way in which Athletics enforces their policy, but do I detect a double-standard here?  I also recognize that "faggot" is a slur often directed at an individual, whereas "fuck" is a verb (in this case).  But the point is about respect for others who find a word offensive while the person/group using it clearly does not, at least not during the cheer.

Those who use the word during the cheer might be much less inclined to use it when talking to their parents, or their girlfriend's parents, or their boss, or whomever.  If so, they understand that it is not always appropriate to use this word.  By creating this policy for their event, isn't Athletics simply saying this is one of those times when it is inappropriate to use it?

[quote Townie]"By creating this policy for their event, isn't Athletics simply saying this is one of those times when it is inappropriate to use it?"[/quote]

I'm offended by the word 'god'. I'm not inclined to use it around my parents or my boss. How many other people do I need to be offended by the word 'god' do I need in order to get people ejected for singing O' Canada?


Why is Athletics the selected of words that are inappropriate? Even if fuck were inappropriate, where do they get the idea that they can regulate words with similar sounds?  Why should I be guilted into apologizing just because your kid heard a word in the English language?  It's not my job to be their parent nor would I want my tuition money and ticket fees to go to pay people who set and enforce arbitrary standards.

The point is that Townie suggest that the AD's performance can be measured by the number of aggregate titles we have won. I imagine that it would be easier to win an Ivy title in a sport where only 6  or 7 of the 8 compete and thus not a good measure of how successful an AD.

[quote Tom Tone]Why is Athletics the selected of words that are inappropriate?[/quote]
You can't be serious.

Athletics is responsible for the environment at their events. If the crazy students lead to an exodus of townies (or even merely vigorous complaining from them OR FROM THE COACH) they have every right to police that environment.

Say it with me: THIS ISN'T A FIRST AMENDMENT ISSUE. You are on private property at the leisure of your hosts. Athletics sets the rules for what is allowed in their rink. The words being policed aren't borderline ('sucks' might be, but from what I can tell, 'sucks' isn't getting people tossed). 'Puck' is an interesting hypothetical but ... has anyone actually been ejected for saying 'puck'? I didn't think so. (NB: If someone chants "the ref pucks sheep" and complains when they are tossed, they should also be punched in the eye.)

[quote Tom Tone]The point is that Townie suggest that the AD's performance can be measured by the number of aggregate titles we have won. I imagine that it would be easier to win an Ivy title in a sport where only 6  or 7 of the 8 compete and thus not a good measure of how successful an AD.[/quote]

I also do not believe that you are serious about this, as Columbia never competes for titles in anything.

[quote ugarte][quote Tom Tone]Why is Athletics the selected of words that are inappropriate?[/quote]
You can't be serious.[/quote]

Or even grammatically well-formed :-P

OTOH, I have an equally hard time believing Townie seriously can't tell the difference between a head coach using a slur and some random students using a vulgar expletive.

[quote jtwcornell91]OTOH, I have an equally hard time believing Townie seriously can't tell the difference between a head coach using a slur and some random students using a vulgar expletive.[/quote]
On the third hand, I don't believe that anyone thinks that a slur used by a coach - for which he was roundly excoriated and quickly apologized - is relevant to a discussion of whether the entire student section can yell "fuck 'em up".

[quote ugarte]If the crazy students lead to an exodus of townies (or even merely vigorous complaining from them OR FROM THE COACH) they have every right to police that environment.[/quote]
If Pixel starts serving Hennepin on Tuesdays, Athletics has every right to police Lynah Rink.

For what I estimate is only the second time in a millennium, we agree on something: this is not a first amendment issue, and students' rights are (generally) not being violated, though I would argue that anyone who gets kicked out and has his tickets revoked is due a full refund for the unused portion.

However, that doesn't make it a good policy.  I think it's fucking dildonic to throw students out for shouting profanity at a hockey rink, and furthermore hypocritical if one of the most vocal complainants is also one of the most vocal offenders.

Welcome your kids to the real world by not sheltering them from one of the few places where it is both appropriate and acceptable to scream your lungs bloody with filthy language.  Where else, if not at a sporting event, can and should you express that kind of vitriol in public?  It's cathartic, it's amusing, and it's a lot of fun.  Those who take offense at 2,000 people chanting, "The ref fucks sheep!" really need to pull the sticks out of their asses, lighten up, and recognize the fun possible when engaging in mob mentality where it can't actually hurt anyone.

[quote Kyle Rose]
For what I estimate is only the second time in a millennium, we agree on something[/quote]
Goddamit. And I was pretty sure that I was right about this.

[quote ugarte][quote jtwcornell91]OTOH, I have an equally hard time believing Townie seriously can't tell the difference between a head coach using a slur and some random students using a vulgar expletive.[/quote]
On the third hand, I don't believe that anyone thinks that a slur used by a coach - for which he was roundly excoriated and quickly apologized - is relevant to a discussion of whether the entire student section can yell "fuck 'em up".[/quote]

Let's not get carried away. The Columbia AD basically blamed the whole thing on Cornell. And reaction on campus in Ithaca was that the band was in the wrong much more so than the coach.

Bullshit! (Said in such a way as to sound like a sneeze to avoid ejection);-)

[quote Chris '03][quote ugarte][quote jtwcornell91]OTOH, I have an equally hard time believing Townie seriously can't tell the difference between a head coach using a slur and some random students using a vulgar expletive.[/quote]
On the third hand, I don't believe that anyone thinks that a slur used by a coach - for which he was roundly excoriated and quickly apologized - is relevant to a discussion of whether the entire student section can yell "fuck 'em up".[/quote]

Let's not get carried away. The Columbia AD basically blamed the whole thing on Cornell. And reaction on campus in Ithaca was that the band was in the wrong much more so than the coach.[/quote]

Seriously.  Columbia's reaction was ridiculous, but more importantly, my point was that behavior such as this has gotten people fired in public ways.  Athletics' staff has occassionally engaged in less severe, but I do not believe entirely different ways.

[quote Townie]
There's a simple solution: Respect the wishes of those who make the rules and don't swear (not referring to you specifically), even if you don't like the rulemakers or disagree with the rule.  I'm not suggesting people blindly follow what they are told; this isn't Nazi Germany.  But if students showed "maturity" by respecting the reasonable request of those in-charge, I suspect those in-charge would be more understanding of the occasional F-bomb.  Instead, some students are calling Athletics' bluff, and since they have the power, Athletics is forced to enforce their policy. Sadly, there is "collateral damage".  But in my view, the students are bringing this upon themselves.

Again, I'm not making excuses for Andy & Co., and I'm sure much of what you say is true.  But I believe if you taunt the dog, don't complain when it bites.[/quote]

Yeah, I think the general consensus on this forum is exactly what you and others suggest:  This isn't a first amendment issue.  Put a cap on the salty language.  We get that here.  I think the bigger issue of this argument is the double standard that has been established.  Specifically, the marching orders of the ushering staff that "them students are up to no good, and if you don't find the rotten kids who are doing it, you aren't doing your job.  Bring someone to us, and we'll believe you because we need to make examples of somebody."  It's pretty much a quota system.  It encourages an environment of distrust.  It encourages ushers to walk down aisles and stare at individuals, and hear something that may or may not be there.  I guarantee that if someone is told what the ushers are told, that "it's going on and you better find it," they will look for something and they can convince themselves of finding it.  There's a reason students are hauled out of sections despite maintaining strenuously that they said "rough" and not "fuck."  Sure there are students still swearing.  But the method of going about cleaning it up is a very poor one.

I was talking with one of the more friendly ushers on the student side of Lynah to understand why the return to an emphasis on the zero-tolerance policy for unruly behavior.  They said the real reason for the crackdown against language, etc. was because of an incident at a game late last semester where a female student was giving oral sex to a male student in Section B.

Supposedly the two were observed by a security person on the far side of the rink (Section N), but by the time security mobilized to the scene they were "finished" and denied everything.

It was deemed unacceptable by the higher-ups in athletics that none of the ushers were paying enough attention to stop this from occurring.  As a result, they decided to go back to a zero-tolerance policy that forces the ushers to much more tightly police the rink in general, but the students in particular.

Wow.  What a combination.  Two of my favorite things, Cornell hockey and...

(sigh) Born too soon....**]

[quote JDeafv]I was talking with one of the more friendly ushers on the student side of Lynah to understand why the return to an emphasis on the zero-tolerance policy for unruly behavior.  They said the real reason for the crackdown against language, etc. was because of an incident at a game late last semester where a female student was giving oral sex to a male student in Section B.

Supposedly the two were observed by a security person on the far side of the rink (Section N), but by the time security mobilized to the scene they were "finished" and denied everything.

It was deemed unacceptable by the higher-ups in athletics that none of the ushers were paying enough attention to stop this from occurring.  As a result, they decided to go back to a zero-tolerance policy that forces the ushers to much more tightly police the rink in general, but the students in particular.[/quote]

Townies, on the other hand, are still allowed a quick blow job as long as they apologize afterwards! ::banana::

[quote Jordan 04]Townies, on the other hand, are still allowed a quick blow job as long as they apologize afterwards! ::banana::[/quote]
Win.

[quote JDeafv]I was talking with one of the more friendly ushers on the student side of Lynah to understand why the return to an emphasis on the zero-tolerance policy for unruly behavior.  They said the real reason for the crackdown against language, etc. was because of an incident at a game late last semester where a female student was giving oral sex to a male student in Section B.

Supposedly the two were observed by a security person on the far side of the rink (Section N), but by the time security mobilized to the scene they were "finished" and denied everything.

It was deemed unacceptable by the higher-ups in athletics that none of the ushers were paying enough attention to stop this from occurring.  As a result, they decided to go back to a zero-tolerance policy that forces the ushers to much more tightly police the rink in general, but the students in particular.[/quote]

That guard in N has some sharp eyes.

Hopefully, the other students in Section B responded with the appropriate cheer.

Looks like this thread's gonna continue a while...

My wife is in serious trouble with me.   We sit in Sec. N and she seldom misses any of the happenings on the other side of the ice.   I get to watch hockey, knowing that she will make me aware if there is some "happening" in the student secions.   She missed this one!!   ::demented::

[quote JDeafv]Supposedly the two were observed by a security person on the far side of the rink (Section N), but by the time security mobilized to the scene they were "finished" and denied everything.

It was deemed unacceptable by the higher-ups in athletics that none of the ushers were paying enough attention to stop this from occurring.[/quote]

Once again, this could very well be an example of the "those dang kids are up to no good" policy that exists and always siding against the students in a conflict of accounts.  Yes, the possiblilty of this being true is eyebrow-raising, but if you stop and THINK about it, doesn't anyone even question the validity of this witnesses account?  Surely if it was visible FROM ACROSS THE BUILDING, someone else must have seen it?  I know if something like that happened near me in a section as crowded as B, there'd be a little bit of a ruckus.

SHHHHH!  It's a good story - don't ruin it.

[quote Trotsky][quote JDeafv]I was talking with one of the more friendly ushers on the student side of Lynah to understand why the return to an emphasis on the zero-tolerance policy for unruly behavior.  They said the real reason for the crackdown against language, etc. was because of an incident at a game late last semester where a female student was giving oral sex to a male student in Section B.

Supposedly the two were observed by a security person on the far side of the rink (Section N), but by the time security mobilized to the scene they were "finished" and denied everything.

It was deemed unacceptable by the higher-ups in athletics that none of the ushers were paying enough attention to stop this from occurring.  As a result, they decided to go back to a zero-tolerance policy that forces the ushers to much more tightly police the rink in general, but the students in particular.[/quote]

That guard in N has some sharp eyes.

Hopefully, the other students in Section B responded with the appropriate cheer.[/quote]

Hey, babe - you're not a Faithful, you're a vacuum!

Um...

[quote redice]My wife is in serious trouble with me.   We sit in Sec. N and she seldom missing any of the happenings on the other side of the ice.   I get to watch hockey, knowing that she will make me aware if there is some "happening" in the student secions.   She missed this one!!   ::demented::[/quote]

At least that is what you hope!

I mean if it happened during play, all the students would've been standing. Meaning that it only would've been visible if it happened in the first row or along the aisle. Otherwise, those standing up would've shielded the offenders from view, and in that case the section N usher has x-ray vision and the students are doomed. They won't even be able to cup their mouths and swear anymore. ::panic::

[quote Trotsky]

Hopefully, the other students in Section B responded with the appropriate cheer.[/quote]

That girl sucks!  That girl sucks!

[quote RichH][quote JDeafv]Supposedly the two were observed by a security person on the far side of the rink (Section N), but by the time security mobilized to the scene they were "finished" and denied everything.

It was deemed unacceptable by the higher-ups in athletics that none of the ushers were paying enough attention to stop this from occurring.[/quote]

Once again, this could very well be an example of the "those dang kids are up to no good" policy that exists and always siding against the students in a conflict of accounts.  Yes, the possiblilty of this being true is eyebrow-raising, but if you stop and THINK about it, doesn't anyone even question the validity of this witnesses account?  Surely if it was visible FROM ACROSS THE BUILDING, someone else must have seen it?  I know if something like that happened near me in a section as crowded as B, there'd be a little bit of a ruckus.[/quote]

Bingo. It could also be a salacious story invented to rally the troops against those no good kids. This story doesn't hold up at all. My first instinct is that the usher in question is just bullshitting though.

[quote Chris '03][quote RichH][quote JDeafv]Supposedly the two were observed by a security person on the far side of the rink (Section N), but by the time security mobilized to the scene they were "finished" and denied everything.

It was deemed unacceptable by the higher-ups in athletics that none of the ushers were paying enough attention to stop this from occurring.[/quote]

Once again, this could very well be an example of the "those dang kids are up to no good" policy that exists and always siding against the students in a conflict of accounts.  Yes, the possiblilty of this being true is eyebrow-raising, but if you stop and THINK about it, doesn't anyone even question the validity of this witnesses account?  Surely if it was visible FROM ACROSS THE BUILDING, someone else must have seen it?  I know if something like that happened near me in a section as crowded as B, there'd be a little bit of a ruckus.[/quote]

Bingo. It could also be a salacious story invented to rally the troops against those no good kids. This story doesn't hold up at all. My first instinct is that the usher in question is just bullshitting though.[/quote]

Have they subpoenaed the dress?

Couldn't have happened during play...she wouldn't want to miss the game.  Would she? Would she?  And you can only watch the zamboni go around so often...

I doubt the story is true, but it would give a whole new meaning to the 'facetimers'.

And if it is true, for shame.

[quote TimV]Couldn't have happened during play...she wouldn't want to miss the game.  Would she? Would she?  And you can only watch the zamboni go around so often...[/quote]

So that's why Dave had to stop wearing costumes. ::doh::

Quote from: That guard in N has some sharp eyes.

it's good to see that the collegetown creeper has been fully rehabilitated and can now function as a positive member of society

[quote TimV]SHHHHH!  It's a good story - don't blow it.[/quote]

FYP  ::whistle::

Hey Ref Girl in Section B! Get of your knees, you're blowing [during] the game!

[quote RichH][quote JDeafv]Supposedly the two were observed by a security person on the far side of the rink (Section N), but by the time security mobilized to the scene they were "finished" and denied everything.

It was deemed unacceptable by the higher-ups in athletics that none of the ushers were paying enough attention to stop this from occurring.[/quote]

Once again, this could very well be an example of the "those dang kids are up to no good" policy that exists and always siding against the students in a conflict of accounts.  Yes, the possiblilty of this being true is eyebrow-raising, but if you stop and THINK about it, doesn't anyone even question the validity of this witnesses account?  Surely if it was visible FROM ACROSS THE BUILDING, someone else must have seen it?  I know if something like that happened near me in a section as crowded as B, there'd be a little bit of a ruckus.[/quote]

I have to say that was my first thought (ok, well, second ::woot::). Did anyone in the section see it? Anyone else across the way? Wouldn't this have been a major happening & story, not to mention having charges pressed for public indecency??

Coming from ushers who identify the wrong fish thrower when standing next to them, I'd have to imagine the odds of it being something that never happened is reasonably high. Or is this corroborated?

Hey Jeff- Is that smilie really whistling???

[quote TimV]Hey Jeff- Is that smilie really whistling???[/quote]Or is it ::dribble::

The "Harvard Sucks" thread has 335 posts since Dec 1 2003 - almost 5 years and 10 weeks.

This thread has 215 posts in 2 weeks.  If we could get RichS to post here we could easily get the 121 posts needed to set the record and it would probably only take 4-5 days...::woot::

[quote TimV]The "Harvard Sucks" thread has 335 posts since Dec 1 2003 - almost 5 years and 10 weeks.

This thread has 215 posts in 2 weeks.  If we could get RichS to post here we could easily get the 121 posts needed to set the record and it would probably only take 4-5 days...::woot::[/quote]
It'll never happen - this thread doesn't fit with his worldview that the Cornell students and band currently get away with everything and act just as badly as the Clarkson fans currently do.

Given that I started this thread, and it's well on its way to the lead (though probably won't sustain it), I feel the need to add something substantive to keep the debate alive...but actually I wanted to be clear about where I stand because I believe many people on here think that it's simply a matter of students wanting to swear.

I have no problem with Athletics attempting to take out swearing from Lynah Rink, nor do I believe we cannot create cheers without profanity.  The problem has always been, and continues to be, the comparative treatment between student hockey fans and other fans (e.g. Townie's or students at baskeball games).  While this stretches beyond just swearing into ticket prices or free gear, the problem right now obviously focuses on swearing.  Most notably, what angered me about the most recent attempts was the clear focus on students alone.  Had Athletics enforced this policy from sections A-O, balcony inclusive, students would have little reason to complain.  Yet, when the profanity=ejection signs are posted outside just student sections and section O, one cannot dispute the bias.  Despite the fact that I would prefer no student be ejected from any sporting event, I was pleased that enforcement is now occurring at Newman because it shows equal treatment across sporting events.

Many here have attested to the fact that swearing occurs in the Townie sections, yet I'll be damned if one Townie section has ever been policed as thoroughly by ushers, let alone if an usher would actually have the audacity to rescind the season ticket of a Townie for swearing.  I realize that the reason for the policy itself comes from university administration, but Athletics formulates the implementation.  A clear and consistent message across all fans throughout both the rink and the season, including perhaps an announcement after puck drop reminding fans that the use of objectionable language or gestures results in ejection would serve athletics better than to criminalize the Lynah Faithful.

Swearing is not an integral part of Lynah, yet there are better, more effective methods to get rid of it, including a clear, concise, and consistent message to all fans at Lynah.

[quote TimV]The "Harvard Sucks" thread has 335 posts since Dec 1 2003 - almost 5 years and 10 weeks.  This thread has 215 posts in 2 weeks.[/quote]Chanting "bend over" while not watching Cornell set up a play in the other end...

[quote amerks127]Swearing is not an integral part of Lynah, yet there are better, more effective methods to get rid of it, including a clear, concise, and consistent message to all fans at Lynah.[/quote]What are you proposing as an alternative?  Randomly terrorizing kids in section B isn't fair and probably isn't effective, granted.  How then do you appeal to the crowd?


It ought to be effective if somebody the crowd respected, to the degree that they respect anybody, would tell them they're being morons.  ADs and coaches, including Schafer, have done that in the past, albeit there's something very depressing about having to remind a bunch of presumptive adults not to behave like middle schoolers.

This has been an issue since at least the early 80's, and it comes and goes in alternating waves of student idiocy and administrative persecution.  Best to dial down the rabble, rabble, rabble on both sides.  If a fan gets way out of line by insisting on standing in front of somebody, OK, then throw them out of the rink for that night -- they'll figure it out after one or two times.  But as for profanity, that's much better handled by mass shaming.  The person who can stand up to an entire section telling him (it is invariably a him) not to drop the f bomb is probably visibly drunk, and if they're drunk you can throw them out, too.  The rest will fold when mature people give them the hairy eyeball.

i am a first year student at cornell, but have loved college hockey for a while

tonight a student sitting next to me was asked to leave for swearing (which i agree does not need to have a place in Lynah) however this was not b/c any usher had heard him swear but after Q took a penalty a lip reader saw him swear from across the rink

is this a joke?

Facts are wrong.  The Athletics department has no lipreaders.

It was a mentalist who knew that he was thinking an obscenity.

Maybe the anaphoric society can pass out some bandannas for fans to cover their mouths. Hell, make them pink and then it's in line with the promotion in two weeks.

[quote Chris '03]Maybe the anaphoric society can pass out some bandannas for fans to cover their mouths. Hell, make them pink and then it's in line with the promotion in two weeks.[/quote]

You know Chris, if you could pull that one off for everyone in the student sections, that would be one of the funniest things ever done at Lynah.   And, it would be one great big "gotcha" imposed on Lynah Gestapo.

[quote redice][quote Chris '03]Maybe the anaphoric society can pass out some bandannas for fans to cover their mouths. Hell, make them pink and then it's in line with the promotion in two weeks.[/quote]

You know Chris, if you could pull that one off for everyone in the student sections, that would be one of the funniest things ever done at Lynah.   And, it would be one great big "gotcha" imposed on Lynah Gestapo.[/quote]

Start passing the hat. They're $0.70 each in bulk. $700 gets you a thousand. You might be able to do better if you search for more than 10 seconds. http://www.centurynovelty.com/detail_591_146-1112.html?mr:referralID=7477dc61-f52e-11dd-a8aa-000423bb4e95

I'm in my fourth undergrad year of attending games, and every time they try to stop swearing, the only way of convincing us to stop is by threatening to kick us out. That makes it seems like the only reason to stop swearing is so they won't kick us out, whereas the people on this thread have presented some much more admirable reasons. If the email they sent to us said, "stop swearing because there are kids in the rink" instead of "stop swearing because we've got the pep band under the gun", I think the fans would respond a bit more respectfully. This isn't about the students who read this forum, it's about the hundreds who don't who haven't been given a reasoned argument to stop.

[quote saff678]I'm in my fourth undergrad year of attending games, and every time they try to stop swearing, the only way of convincing us to stop is by threatening to kick us out. That makes it seems like the only reason to stop swearing is so they won't kick us out, whereas the people on this thread have presented some much more admirable reasons. If the email they sent to us said, "stop swearing because there are kids in the rink" instead of "stop swearing because we've got the pep band under the gun", I think the fans would respond a bit more respectfully. This isn't about the students who read this forum, it's about the hundreds who don't who haven't been given a reasoned argument to stop.[/quote]

I think that's a good idea.  It gives all parties (students and administration) a way to move forward constructively.  Instead of citing kids, I'd mention consideration to those who find bawdy language offensive, young and old alike.

From the townie side of the rink, the language does sound "cleaner".  I'm in row 10 and can hear above the glass.  I can't hear "asshole" in the penalty chant, and Gary Glitter seems to be cleaned-up to.  My compliments and thanks to the students.

Gah, nevermind.

[quote pat]Gah, nevermind.[/quote]OK, we won't!

[quote Jim Hyla][quote pat]Gah, nevermind.[/quote]OK, we won't![/quote]
Thanks!

[quote RedWins11]tonight a student sitting next to me was asked to leave for swearing (which i agree does not need to have a place in Lynah) however this was not b/c any usher had heard him swear but after Q took a penalty a lip reader saw him swear from across the rink

is this a joke?[/quote]

It's rather amusing while sitting in G to watch the ushers work the aisles during certain cheers/songs.  Just once I'd like to see someone stare at an usher the way they stare at students while they are doing so.

I also want to find these apparently paid lip readers in the building.  Are they using binoculars and walkie-talkies or something?

It would be pretty funny if everyone pointed at their respective ushers during "you suck" in RRP2... would badly-aimed index fingers lead to expulsion?

Yeah Matt Coates has no soul, he threw 2 kids out a minute or 2 before we stormed the court yesterday at Newman

[quote jdonofrio]Yeah Matt Coates has no soul, he threw 2 kids out a minute or 2 before we stormed the court yesterday at Newman[/quote]

...for doing what?  Or doesn't that matter?

It doesnt matter what they doing, there is no reason to throw someone out 2 minutes before we storm the court.

[quote jdonofrio]It doesnt matter what they doing, there is no reason to throw someone out 2 minutes before we storm the court.[/quote]

Yeah, that's kinda what I thought.

[quote Beeeej][quote jdonofrio]It doesnt matter what they doing, there is no reason to throw someone out 2 minutes before we storm the court.[/quote]

Yeah, that's kinda what I thought.[/quote]

If it's something you get a penalty for in the first period, you should get the same penalty late in the third period...

I would still be mighty angry

[quote jdonofrio]It doesnt matter what they doing, there is no reason to throw someone out 2 minutes before we storm the court.[/quote]

Um, uh... wrong.  It kinda matters.

[quote Trotsky][quote jdonofrio]It doesnt matter what they doing, there is no reason to throw someone out 2 minutes before we storm the court.[/quote]

Um, uh... wrong.  It kinda matters.[/quote]

Yeah, now I know if I ever need to whack someone, I just wait until 2 minutes before Cornell clinches a championship. ::smashfreak::

One of my daily vices is reading advice columns along with the comics (hey, makes one's life look a bit better compared to those who write in). Anyways, a few weeks ago in the Ask Amy column there was a question from a babysitter who (with parents permission) took her charges to college hockey games and asked about what to tell the kids when they heard swearing.

A follow-up to that question (http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/tribu/askamy/ct-ae-1201-amy-20111201,0,2216574.column) appeared today (2nd letter) and Cornell hockey and hockey SID Brandon Thomas got a mention. If you don't know, Ask Amy grew up in Freeville and watching the Cornell teams of the late 60's and 70's.

Of course, since swearing at Lynah has been a topic of discussion, I thought I would put this out there.

Quote from: RitaOne of my daily vices is reading advice columns along with the comics (hey, makes one's life look a bit better compared to those who write in). Anyways, a few weeks ago in the Ask Amy column there was a question from a babysitter who (with parents permission) took her charges to college hockey games and asked about what to tell the kids when they heard swearing.

A follow-up to that question (http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/tribu/askamy/ct-ae-1201-amy-20111201,0,2216574.column) appeared today (2nd letter) and Cornell hockey and hockey SID Brandon Thomas got a mention. If you don't know, Ask Amy grew up in Freeville and watching the Cornell teams of the late 60's and 70's.

Of course, since swearing at Lynah has been a topic of discussion, I thought I would put this out there.

My wife came with me to Red Hot Hockey. She recoiled at the idea of our kid going to a game because of the cursing. Maybe I'm in too deep to be objective.

Quote from: ugarteMy wife came with me to Red Hot Hockey. She recoiled at the idea of our kid going to a game because of the cursing. Maybe I'm in too deep to be objective.

Ignoring my belief for a second that the act of hearing a word that someone, somewhere has deemed to be offensive does not cause heads to explode, I'll ask if you were able to pick any out in a crowd of 18,000.

Quote from: RichH

Quote from: ugarteMy wife came with me to Red Hot Hockey. She recoiled at the idea of our kid going to a game because of the cursing. Maybe I'm in too deep to be objective.

Ignoring my belief for a second that the act of hearing a word that someone, somewhere has deemed to be offensive does not cause heads to explode, I'll ask if you were able to pick any out in a crowd of 18,000.

I'm not talking about individual curses. We were in the 100s level surrounded by alumni. There was virtually none of that. The most offensive thing to come out of our section was some guy who looks and sounds a lot like me yelling "COVER THE FUCKING POINT" during a frustrated moment.

She was offended more about the resounding cries of "SUCKS" and "Drop Dead" and all of that. It isn't about heads exploding or anything like that anyway. It is about not wanting to be the parents of a 4 year old who tells grandma "traffic sucks." It is about, for me anyway, discretion and courtesy, not the desire to have jackboots as part of the standard usher uniform.

Quote from: ugarteShe was offended more about the resounding cries of "SUCKS" and "Drop Dead" and all of that. It isn't about heads exploding or anything like that anyway. It is about not wanting to be the parents of a 4 year old who tells grandma "traffic sucks." It is about, for me anyway, discretion and courtesy, not the desire to have jackboots as part of the standard usher uniform.

To me that's not being offended by profanity but by selfishness, entitlement and rudeness.  Which is fine, but you're gonna have to move your family out of the Northeast to avoid it.

Personally I'm offended by the lack of creativity of the constant "sucks" and "drop dead" cheers.  Mothers don't let your children grow up to be boring.

Quote from: Trotsky

Quote from: ugarteShe was offended more about the resounding cries of "SUCKS" and "Drop Dead" and all of that. It isn't about heads exploding or anything like that anyway. It is about not wanting to be the parents of a 4 year old who tells grandma "traffic sucks." It is about, for me anyway, discretion and courtesy, not the desire to have jackboots as part of the standard usher uniform.

To me that's not being offended by profanity but by selfishness, entitlement and rudeness.  Which is fine, but you're gonna have to move your family out of the Northeast to avoid it.

Personally I'm offended by the lack of creativity of the constant "sucks" and "drop dead" cheers.  Mothers don't let your children grow up to be boring.

It's really hard to be creative and organized in a crowd that large. I think most of the fans went for organization with the simpler chants. While I openly admit the creativity at Lynah today doesn't approach its hey day, its still far better than what was witnessed at RHH.

Quote from: ugarteShe was offended more about the resounding cries of "SUCKS" and "Drop Dead" and all of that.

When Electrolux first marketed its vacuum cleaners in this country, it's slogan was:  "Nothing sucks like an Electrolux."

Quote from: ugarteShe was offended more about the resounding cries of "SUCKS" and "Drop Dead" and all of that. It isn't about heads exploding or anything like that anyway. It is about not wanting to be the parents of a 4 year old who tells grandma "traffic sucks." It is about, for me anyway, discretion and courtesy, not the desire to have jackboots as part of the standard usher uniform.

I still boggle at the thought of anyone being offended by "Sucks" as en expression, let alone at a sporting event.  Or at least at the thought of anyone close to my age being offended by that.  Then again, I suppose I don't have small children so it's hard to relate.

Quote from: css228It's really hard to be creative and organized in a crowd that large. I think most of the fans went for organization with the simpler chants. While I openly admit the creativity at Lynah today doesn't approach its hey day, its still far better than what was witnessed at RHH.

I agree with you about MSG and this is not meant in any way as a knock on today's undergrad classes who I think are just as fierce and fun a fanbase as we've ever had.

The two most interesting things about Lynah are the DIY "open mic" Section A and B cheers (which are impossible in a larger arena) and the constant noise (not just for a significant play but cheering on every shift and not allowing any dead air -- the cheers that make visiting players look up at the crowd during stoppages as if to say "WTF is wrong with you people?!" ).  These things seems to ebb and flow with different classes of undergrads -- right now it actually seems (from the streams anyway) much better at Lynah than during the early 00's, and MUCH better than during the early 90's when the place was really just another barn.

I don't believe in Golden Ages, but I do think the overgrowth of the monotonous cheers ("Bend Over" ) crowd out the opportunities for Kids Today to come up with their own new traditions.  Let a hundred flowers blossom and all that.

Quote from: KeithK

Quote from: ugarteShe was offended more about the resounding cries of "SUCKS" and "Drop Dead" and all of that. It isn't about heads exploding or anything like that anyway. It is about not wanting to be the parents of a 4 year old who tells grandma "traffic sucks." It is about, for me anyway, discretion and courtesy, not the desire to have jackboots as part of the standard usher uniform.

I still boggle at the thought of anyone being offended by "Sucks" as en expression, let alone at a sporting event.  Or at least at the thought of anyone close to my age being offended by that.  Then again, I suppose I don't have small children so it's hard to relate.

The small child problem is they are really just drooling 3-second tapes on continuous loop, so after a game the parents hear nothing but x SUCKS, y SUCKS, z SUCKS, forever.

Which is why God invented the open palm slap.

Quote from: KeithKI still boggle at the thought of anyone being offended by "Sucks" as en expression,

You know that it's short for "sucks dick (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=suck)" right?

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: KeithKI still boggle at the thought of anyone being offended by "Sucks" as en expression,

You know that it's short for "sucks dick (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=suck)" right?

Exactly: "sucks" is the censored/cleaned-up version of the phrase. What's the problem again?

Quote from: Kyle Rose

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: KeithKI still boggle at the thought of anyone being offended by "Sucks" as en expression,

You know that it's short for "sucks dick (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=suck)" right?

Exactly: "sucks" is the censored/cleaned-up version of the phrase. What's the problem again?

At least this puts the universe back in balance.

"Performs oral sex upon" is also a "cleaned up version" but since they all mean the same thing... they all mean the same thing.

Quote from: TrotskyI agree with you about MSG and this is not meant in any way as a knock on today's undergrad classes who I think are just as fierce and fun a fanbase as we've ever had.

I disagree. As someone who stands in the supporters' section for New York Red Bulls games -- where we sing & chant for the entire match -- I'm not impressed by the amount of noise we make or the amount of dead air there is during play.

QuoteI don't believe in Golden Ages, but I do think the overgrowth of the monotonous cheers ("Bend Over" ) crowd out the opportunities for Kids Today to come up with their own new traditions.  Let a hundred flowers blossom and all that.

Unfortunately, this happens wherever there are structured cheers. It's the other side of the double-edged sword of tradition.

Quote from: Trotsky

Quote from: css228It's really hard to be creative and organized in a crowd that large. I think most of the fans went for organization with the simpler chants. While I openly admit the creativity at Lynah today doesn't approach its hey day, its still far better than what was witnessed at RHH.

I agree with you about MSG and this is not meant in any way as a knock on today's undergrad classes who I think are just as fierce and fun a fanbase as we've ever had.

The two most interesting things about Lynah are the DIY "open mic" Section A and B cheers (which are impossible in a larger arena) and the constant noise (not just for a significant play but cheering on every shift and not allowing any dead air -- the cheers that make visiting players look up at the crowd during stoppages as if to say "WTF is wrong with you people?!" ).  These things seems to ebb and flow with different classes of undergrads -- right now it actually seems (from the streams anyway) much better at Lynah than during the early 00's, and MUCH better than during the early 90's when the place was really just another barn.

I don't believe in Golden Ages, but I do think the overgrowth of the monotonous cheers ("Bend Over" ) crowd out the opportunities for Kids Today to come up with their own new traditions.  Let a hundred flowers blossom and all that.

Agreed on the monotony of some cheers. There's a need for new player specific cheers. Hopefully that'll be rectified soon.

Quote from: BenUnfortunately, this happens wherever there are structured cheers. It's the other side of the double-edged sword of tradition.

It can, but the engine of cheering will always be the student sections and they have the power to change it.  It isn't like a professional sport (or Yale or Union) where the minute the tweens get hold of an LCD cheer everything else is obliterated.

We've always had structured cheers; they don't have to get out of hand.  There was a time when "the ref fucked sheep" after every Cornell penalty.  There's always a way back from the abyss.

Quote from: css228There's a need for new player specific cheers. Hopefully that'll be rectified soon.

There are certainly some awesome new guys to get behind!  :)

Quote from: Ben

Quote from: TrotskyI agree with you about MSG and this is not meant in any way as a knock on today's undergrad classes who I think are just as fierce and fun a fanbase as we've ever had.

I disagree. As someone who stands in the supporters' section for New York Red Bulls games -- where we sing & chant for the entire match -- I'm not impressed by the amount of noise we make or the amount of dead air there is during play.

And as someone who stood in Lynah from 1996-1998, I assert with only my recollection as evidence that the student section was a lot better back in my day. It certainly was a lot more imaginative: lots of individuals screaming funny things, and a lot of cheers created/imported during that period.

Remember when the remote control goalie chant was more than just "skate skate skate turn bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over"?  I do. :-)

[/walker][/lawn]

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: Kyle Rose

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: KeithKI still boggle at the thought of anyone being offended by "Sucks" as en expression,

You know that it's short for "sucks dick (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=suck)" right?

Exactly: "sucks" is the censored/cleaned-up version of the phrase. What's the problem again?

At least this puts the universe back in balance.

"Performs oral sex upon" is also a "cleaned up version" but since they all mean the same thing... they all mean the same thing.

By this logic, you should actually appreciate "sucks" because no young kid would know it came from "sucks dick": they'd already have to have knowledge of oral sex to make that connection.

Personally, I want to hear section B start up a "Harrrrr-vard... performs oral sex upon boys!" chant and see how that fares compared to "sucks" or "fuck 'em up" or even "the ref fucks sheep!" :-)

Quote from: Kyle RoseRemember when the remote control goalie chant was more than just "skate skate skate turn bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over"?  I do. :-)

[/walker][/lawn]

Yes. And it's current incarnation makes me sad.

"skate, skate, tuuuuuuurn, stop, tap, sweeeeep, tap, tap, tap, drink, pose, bend over"

Quote from: Chris '03

Quote from: Kyle RoseRemember when the remote control goalie chant was more than just "skate skate skate turn bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over"?  I do. :-)

[/walker][/lawn]

Yes. And it's current incarnation makes me sad.

"skate, skate, tuuuuuuurn, stop, tap, sweeeeep, tap, tap, tap, drink, pose, bend over"

There are people that try to actually mimic what he's doing, especially the band, but it just doesn't seem to catch on with most people. Maybe the best remedy is to use sparingly.

Quote from: css228

Quote from: Chris '03

Quote from: Kyle RoseRemember when the remote control goalie chant was more than just "skate skate skate turn bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over bend over"?  I do. :-)

[/walker][/lawn]

Yes. And it's current incarnation makes me sad.

"skate, skate, tuuuuuuurn, stop, tap, sweeeeep, tap, tap, tap, drink, pose, bend over"

There are people that try to actually mimic what he's doing, especially the band, but it just doesn't seem to catch on with most people. Maybe the best remedy is to use sparingly.

That's really the issue. Somewhere in the past 5 or so years it went from mimicking to unimaginatively directing and lost a lot of its fun and power.

Quote from: Kyle Rose

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: Kyle Rose

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: KeithKI still boggle at the thought of anyone being offended by "Sucks" as en expression,

You know that it's short for "sucks dick (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=suck)" right?

Exactly: "sucks" is the censored/cleaned-up version of the phrase. What's the problem again?

At least this puts the universe back in balance.

"Performs oral sex upon" is also a "cleaned up version" but since they all mean the same thing... they all mean the same thing.

By this logic, you should actually appreciate "sucks" because no young kid would know it came from "sucks dick": they'd already have to have knowledge of oral sex to make that connection.

Personally, I want to hear section B start up a "Harrrrr-vard... performs oral sex upon boys!" chant and see how that fares compared to "sucks" or "fuck 'em up" or even "the ref fucks sheep!" :-)

Save that one for when we play PSU.  :-O

What, too soon?

(Thank goodness there's no "-1" button any more!)

Sorry guys, I don't buy it.

I've been hearing the "everyone just repeats the same cheers" song since I was a freshman (I'm class of '08).

Unless you're standing in A, you can't HEAR the good stuff. The sieve can. That's what matters.

We (in A) were pretty darn good from '05-'08. I'm sure a lot of the perception people on ElF have is because they're used to standing in A/B, and now are trying to hear for the same awesome stuff they remember but from much farther away, or in fewer games.

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: KeithKI still boggle at the thought of anyone being offended by "Sucks" as en expression,

You know that it's short for "sucks dick (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=suck)" right?

Only to a certain generation, at this point. I doubt anyone under a certain age says "sucks" casually and intends to express similarity to the act of fellatio.  I've always thought that "sucks" is 100% interchangeable with "stinks" in both definition and level of offensiveness.

Quote from: Robb

Quote from: Kyle Rose

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: Kyle Rose

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: KeithKI still boggle at the thought of anyone being offended by "Sucks" as en expression,

You know that it's short for "sucks dick (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=suck)" right?

Exactly: "sucks" is the censored/cleaned-up version of the phrase. What's the problem again?

At least this puts the universe back in balance.

"Performs oral sex upon" is also a "cleaned up version" but since they all mean the same thing... they all mean the same thing.

By this logic, you should actually appreciate "sucks" because no young kid would know it came from "sucks dick": they'd already have to have knowledge of oral sex to make that connection.

Personally, I want to hear section B start up a "Harrrrr-vard... performs oral sex upon boys!" chant and see how that fares compared to "sucks" or "fuck 'em up" or even "the ref fucks sheep!" :-)

Save that one for when we play PSU.  :-O

What, too soon?

I would say so, but that'd that'd be hypocritical of me having jokingly suggested chanting "Pedo State" when they come...

Quote from: BMacSorry guys, I don't buy it.

I've been hearing the "everyone just repeats the same cheers" song since I was a freshman (I'm class of '08).

Unless you're standing in A, you can't HEAR the good stuff. The sieve can. That's what matters.

We (in A) were pretty darn good from '05-'08. I'm sure a lot of the perception people on ElF have is because they're used to standing in A/B, and now are trying to hear for the same awesome stuff they remember but from much farther away, or in fewer games.

A/B is good (Still sitting in A this year) but there just hasn't been that much addition to the tradition. I love our traditional chants, and my friends and I go to pains to make sure some of the better ones are used (spelling the goalies name, black hole), but the problem isn't the intensity or even the individual in game cheers. We've had some great one's this year. Don't remember what team Campbell played for, but the "Chicken Noodle" chant was great. The problem to me seems to be that people just aren't adding to the traditions. I think that's all people are saying. That we should make our own Lynah Faithful legacy rather than relying on the every game chants that have already been there. We need our own Stephen Baby chant for this era of Cornell Hockey.

Quote from: RichH

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: KeithKI still boggle at the thought of anyone being offended by "Sucks" as en expression,

You know that it's short for "sucks dick (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=suck)" right?

Only to a certain generation, at this point. I doubt anyone under a certain age says "sucks" casually and intends to express similarity to the act of fellatio.  I've always thought that "sucks" is 100% interchangeable with "stinks" in both definition and level of offensiveness.

If it's used on network tv between 7 and 9 on a friday or saturday night, it should be fair game at a hockey game played on friday or saturday night between 7 and 9 without any question whatsoever and no one should expect "better" language at the game.

Quote from: RichHOnly to a certain generation, at this point. I doubt anyone under a certain age says "sucks" casually and intends to express similarity to the act of fellatio.

So it would be completely the same thing to chant "sucks!" at women's games, right?

Right?

Uh huh, I thought not.

I love you dearly, Rich, but that dog don't hunt.

Quote from: RichH

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: KeithKI still boggle at the thought of anyone being offended by "Sucks" as en expression,

You know that it's short for "sucks dick (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=suck)" right?

Only to a certain generation, at this point. I doubt anyone under a certain age says "sucks" casually and intends to express similarity to the act of fellatio.  I've always thought that "sucks" is 100% interchangeable with "stinks" in both definition and level of offensiveness.

Exactly.  It doesn't have a sexual connotation anymore.  It's become a generic negative comment.  Words change their meanings over time in colloquial use.  Which is why I wrote "close to my age".

Quote from: Trotsky

Quote from: RichHOnly to a certain generation, at this point. I doubt anyone under a certain age says "sucks" casually and intends to express similarity to the act of fellatio.

So it would be completely the same thing to chant "sucks!" at women's games, right?

Right?

Uh huh, I thought not.

I love you dearly, Rich, but that dog don't hunt.

I'm not really a fan of the high-handedness, so why don't you let me answer your question?

Truth be told: To me, personally, it is the same thing.  In my not-so-illustrious history, I *have* chanted "sucks!" at women's games.  It wasn't until after friends tackled me (or some similar action) that it even occurred to me that it could be misinterpreted to the filthy-old-man definition.  To me, "sucks" = "stinks" = "word expressing a generic bad quality."  That's it.  That doesn't mean that I still would chant "Sucks!" at a women's game now that I realize people read more depravity into it than I do, the same way that I wouldn't scream "How is that a fucking dive, you asshat ref?" in front of ugarte's kid.  The reason I wouldn't isn't because I think the words themselves are offensive (I don't think they are without intent), but because I don't want others to be upset with me.  I try to be respectful to my fellow humans, even if their sensitivities are calibrated to a different scale than mine.  When it's clear that I've crossed a line with someone, I try to apologize where possible.  And I'm certainly not going to tell people how to raise their kids.  I'll just wage this crusade on internet message boards and hope society comes around to the fact that a 7 year-old hearing the word "fuck" isn't going to turn him into a homicidal rapist.

I've thought about this a lot over the years.  Words themselves do not offend me...hate speech does.  What's the difference? Intent.  If I say "Why are you going to see that Amy Grant concert, Greg? She sucks," or "Natalie Portman may have won best actress for Black Swan, but she sucked in Episode II," do you really think I mean there's pornography going on?  I certainly hope not.  I'm willing to bet that you've made similar statements about certain artists.  Intent, not content, means everything to my inoffensive/offensive needle.  Now who's the arbiter of "intent?"  I don't know, probably the same people who decided at some point that "doo-doo" is socially acceptable and "shit" is not.  Dang vs. damn, "WTF" vs. "What the Fuck," "MILF" vs. well, you know.  That's the point...everybody already knows what it means! Why bother masking?  There's a sign on a theater in my neighborhood that advertises a show, "The Motherf#cker With the Hat." Is that one character substitution the only thing propping our society up instead of collapsing into a sea of debauchery and lawlessness?  I know what it reads. KIDS know what it reads. Everybody knows what it reads.  Why pretend to have some sort of moral barrier there?

Obvious caveat, there are quite a few words that have hate-speech intent built-in. N-word, C-word, and most slurs about groups of people/nationalities/religions/orientations for example.  But the shit/fuck/ass trinity? Meaningless without intent.  

Suck it. ::uptosomething::

Quote from: RichHObvious caveat, there are quite a few words that have hate-speech intent built-in. N-word, C-word, and most slurs about groups of people/nationalities/religions/orientations for example.  

Like Fighting Sioux? ::bolt::

From a student who stood in A/B from 2008-2011 I'd have to agree.  There are still many creative cheers and most are hilarious.  Also, the remote control goalie cheers that I've heard do still mimic his motions.  From where I was standing people still yell Skate, Turn, Drink, Tab, Stop, and Bend Over.  Certainly the end refrain can get dragged out, especially if Cornell is going on the PK or there is a faceoff in our zone.  So I'd say the problem is more with discretion than with the actual cheers.  Additionally,  the "Baby" cheer has (or at least they've tried) been adapted.  I cannot say that I ever was able to watch Stephen Baby play, so I'm not sure if the comparison is accurate but in my time at Lynah the cheer was directed at both Tyler Mugford and Dan Nicholls.  Again, this was not every student so it may not have been audible on the other side of the ice.  The atmosphere may not be what it once was, but I think it says something about how important the Lynah Faithful still are that Ben Scrivens always gave us a lot of credit and thanks.

Quote from: KeithK

Quote from: RichH

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: KeithKI still boggle at the thought of anyone being offended by "Sucks" as en expression,

You know that it's short for "sucks dick (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=suck)" right?

Only to a certain generation, at this point. I doubt anyone under a certain age says "sucks" casually and intends to express similarity to the act of fellatio.  I've always thought that "sucks" is 100% interchangeable with "stinks" in both definition and level of offensiveness.

Exactly.  It doesn't have a sexual connotation anymore.  It's become a generic negative comment.  Words change their meanings over time in colloquial use.  Which is why I wrote "close to my age".

You know, just like "fag" isn't homophobic anymore, it is just a generic word for "dumb" or "lame".

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: KeithK

Quote from: RichH

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: KeithKI still boggle at the thought of anyone being offended by "Sucks" as en expression,

You know that it's short for "sucks dick (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=suck)" right?

Only to a certain generation, at this point. I doubt anyone under a certain age says "sucks" casually and intends to express similarity to the act of fellatio.  I've always thought that "sucks" is 100% interchangeable with "stinks" in both definition and level of offensiveness.

Exactly.  It doesn't have a sexual connotation anymore.  It's become a generic negative comment.  Words change their meanings over time in colloquial use.  Which is why I wrote "close to my age".

You know, just like "fag" isn't homophobic anymore, it is just a generic word for "dumb" or "lame".

Or "cigarette."

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: KeithK

Quote from: RichH

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: KeithKI still boggle at the thought of anyone being offended by "Sucks" as en expression,

You know that it's short for "sucks dick (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=suck)" right?

Only to a certain generation, at this point. I doubt anyone under a certain age says "sucks" casually and intends to express similarity to the act of fellatio.  I've always thought that "sucks" is 100% interchangeable with "stinks" in both definition and level of offensiveness.

Exactly.  It doesn't have a sexual connotation anymore.  It's become a generic negative comment.  Words change their meanings over time in colloquial use.  Which is why I wrote "close to my age".

You know, just like "fag" isn't homophobic anymore, it is just a generic word for "dumb" or "lame".

As an old fart, I was less disturbed by the occasional "sucks" than by the invective from a few spectators in the row behind mine.  We suffered what felt like a constant stream of "Faggot!" "Homo!" and "Fucking douche bag!" directed at various BU players.  I had my wife and two daughters with me.  The younger daughter is Class of '06 and spent some time at Lynah as an undergrad, but it still bothers me.

Quote from: David Harding

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: KeithK

Quote from: RichH

Quote from: ugarte

Quote from: KeithKI still boggle at the thought of anyone being offended by "Sucks" as en expression,

You know that it's short for "sucks dick (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=suck)" right?

Only to a certain generation, at this point. I doubt anyone under a certain age says "sucks" casually and intends to express similarity to the act of fellatio.  I've always thought that "sucks" is 100% interchangeable with "stinks" in both definition and level of offensiveness.

Exactly.  It doesn't have a sexual connotation anymore.  It's become a generic negative comment.  Words change their meanings over time in colloquial use.  Which is why I wrote "close to my age".

You know, just like "fag" isn't homophobic anymore, it is just a generic word for "dumb" or "lame".

As an old fart, I was less disturbed by the occasional "sucks" than by the invective from a few spectators in the row behind mine.  We suffered what felt like a constant stream of "Faggot!" "Homo!" and "Fucking douche bag!" directed at various BU players.  I had my wife and two daughters with me.  The younger daughter is Class of '06 and spent some time at Lynah as an undergrad, but it still bothers me.

It would bother me, and I don't have any kids (that I know of).  I have memories of being in the Big Red Pep Band playing at Union, and having several meathead Union fans saying things like "Red and White make pink, fags" and "you're gay" crap for a whole period. I always thought all of our fans were above that, but I know that's too much to expect.

I had never heard of "ducks" being short for "sucks dick" before I read this thread. Honestly. And I still won't normally make that association.

For me, the line is racism, sexism, and homophobia (or other forms of discrimination). Everything else should be fair game.

Quote from: snert1288Additionally,  the "Baby" cheer has (or at least they've tried) been adapted.  I cannot say that I ever was able to watch Stephen Baby play, so I'm not sure if the comparison is accurate but in my time at Lynah the cheer was directed at both Tyler Mugford and Dan Nicholls.

Which is a bit silly, since "Hey Baby" makes sense as a play on the original title of the song, but "Hey Mugford" doesn't.  It's sort of like when the "¡Olé!" at the end of the bullfighting music went from "Auger!" (natural) to "McRae!-s" (a stretch) to "Abbott!-s" (just silly).

I think the point is that someone should make up a new cheer that makes sense with one of the current players' names.

Quote from: jtwcornell91

Quote from: snert1288Additionally,  the "Baby" cheer has (or at least they've tried) been adapted.  I cannot say that I ever was able to watch Stephen Baby play, so I'm not sure if the comparison is accurate but in my time at Lynah the cheer was directed at both Tyler Mugford and Dan Nicholls.

Which is a bit silly, since "Hey Baby" makes sense as a play on the original title of the song, but "Hey Mugford" doesn't.  It's sort of like when the "¡Olé!" at the end of the bullfighting music went from "Auger!" (natural) to "McRae!-s" (a stretch) to "Abbott!-s" (just silly).

I think the point is that someone should make up a new cheer that makes sense with one of the current players' names.

I kind of disagree with you there John.  I think taking an existing cheer and adapting it to new players is cool.  Yes, the original "Hey Baby" thing was a play on the song title. "Hey Mugford" is a play on a play on the song title. Oh, it might be silly if thirty years from now we're singing "Hey Jones" and no one can even recall that there was a player named Baby back in the day. But this kind of evolving cheer can be fun.

It's great when you can come up with a new (original) cheer for each new group of players.  But that doesn't alwa happen.

Quote from: snert1288From a student who stood in A/B from 2008-2011 I'd have to agree.  There are still many creative cheers and most are hilarious.  Also, the remote control goalie cheers that I've heard do still mimic his motions.  From where I was standing people still yell Skate, Turn, Drink, Tab, Stop, and Bend Over.  Certainly the end refrain can get dragged out, especially if Cornell is going on the PK or there is a faceoff in our zone.  So I'd say the problem is more with discretion than with the actual cheers.  Additionally,  the "Baby" cheer has (or at least they've tried) been adapted.  I cannot say that I ever was able to watch Stephen Baby play, so I'm not sure if the comparison is accurate but in my time at Lynah the cheer was directed at both Tyler Mugford and Dan Nicholls.  Again, this was not every student so it may not have been audible on the other side of the ice.  The atmosphere may not be what it once was, but I think it says something about how important the Lynah Faithful still are that Ben Scrivens always gave us a lot of credit and thanks.

Having been there up to '04, when the "Bend over" part was starting to ramp up, I too recall that the usual remote control part was still there as long as the goalie was doing something (skating, drinking sweeping, etc).  The "bend over" part only really started when the goalie wasn't just standing there not doing too much, and frankly when you got a couple thousand people yelling "band over" in unison for a minute straight, it was pretty damn funny and awesome.  I can't say what it's like now, and if people jump to the bend over part too quickly; or if they don't get it in unison because kids today seem to want to speed every cheer immediately (there's my old guy rant, but seriously "DE-FENSE" at football and basketball works better if you can keep it up at constant rhythm for a couple minutes, not if it ends after 15 because people are in a speed yelling contest with each other).

Inspired largely by hockey chants, I have introduced our surgery residents to "The Paradox of the Surgical Suction:"

            "When the suction doesn't suck, it sucks.  And when the suction DOES suck, it doesn't."

                                                      ::nut::::doh::::bolt::

Quote from: Trotsky

Quote from: ugarteShe was offended more about the resounding cries of "SUCKS" and "Drop Dead" and all of that. It isn't about heads exploding or anything like that anyway. It is about not wanting to be the parents of a 4 year old who tells grandma "traffic sucks." It is about, for me anyway, discretion and courtesy, not the desire to have jackboots as part of the standard usher uniform.

To me that's not being offended by profanity but by selfishness, entitlement and rudeness.  Which is fine, but you're gonna have to move your family out of the Northeast to avoid it.

Personally I'm offended by the lack of creativity of the constant "sucks" and "drop dead" cheers.  Mothers don't let your children grow up to be boring.

Clue 23 down in today's NYT crossword:  "You suck!"    Answer: BOO