From Sunday's Boston Globe:
http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2007/02/11/big_question_on_campus_where_have_all_the_scorers_gone/
After two screensful rambling down memory lane, the story says, "'No position in any sport has made the jump of how it's played better than goaltending," said [BU coach] Parker .... '"There have always been good goaltenders," said [Jerry] York. "[Ken] Dryden, [Chris] Terreri, [Paul] Skidmore, but as a rule the goalies today are better athletes. I don't know if years ago many of the goalies could have skated [on defense or offense], but today's goalie could.'" It also talks about better coaching of goalies, pad sizes and whether the nets should be larger.
Other possibilities:
-- Coaches such as Mike Schafer have shown you can take good defensive players and coach them to play as a great defensive unit.
-- More top to bottom parity in the league. The nearly goal-a-game scorers of the 1970s and 1980s perhaps padded their numbers with hat tricks against the bottom feeders. Perhaps there ought to be a derived stat Goal-Scoring Games to discount the effect of runaways.
-- Do more teams skate four lines more equally? Maybe the top line used to be out 40% of the game and now it's 30%
No matter what the reasons, the games used to be more enjoyable back in the old days! Even though we lost, no one who was at the Boston Garden for our 10-9 overtime loss to UNH in the ECAC semifinals in 1977 will ever forget that game. It's hard to imagine a 10-9 game these days in the ECAC playoffs!
[quote dbilmes]No matter what the reasons, the games used to be more enjoyable back in the old days! Even though we lost, no one who was at the Boston Garden for our 10-9 overtime loss to UNH in the ECAC semifinals in 1977 will ever forget that game. It's hard to imagine a 10-9 game these days in the ECAC playoffs![/quote]I did not find that game to be enjoyable. Much more enjoyable was the 1-0 win vs. North Dakota in the '67 NCAA semis. 18 goals less, but a lot more joy.
And you never heard an announcer say anything like: "So-and-so is 54-2-4 over the past five years when they scored the first goal." The first goal was like the opening bid in a poker game, rather than the turning point--or, worse, decisive moment--in a game.
I don't really need 10-9 games, but it would be nice if a team really could come back from being a few goals down and not have it viewed as some kind of miracle. (Although it does happen often enough to Harvard in the first round of the NCAAs.::thud:: )
[quote dbilmes]No matter what the reasons, the games used to be more enjoyable back in the old days! Even though we lost, no one who was at the Boston Garden for our 10-9 overtime loss to UNH in the ECAC semifinals in 1977 will ever forget that game. It's hard to imagine a 10-9 game these days in the ECAC playoffs![/quote]
In Canada's other national sport, no less imaginable but harder to forget than any of us would like: UMass 10, Cornell 9, last year.
[quote Al DeFlorio]And you never heard an announcer say anything like: "So-and-so is 54-2-4 over the past five years when they scored the first goal." The first goal was like the opening bid in a poker game, rather than the turning point--or, worse, decisive moment--in a game.[/quote]
We are in an era of dumb or misleading statistics and, Al, you cited one. Another sort-of-stat that gets me is recounting the time-of-game in tenths of a second during the last minute rather than to the nearest second. Except in the last one or two seconds. Before then, you haven't reached the JND (just noticeable difference) that 1/10 second provides. 10.0 vs. 9.9 seconds is a 0.01 difference and 59.9 vs. 60.0 is a 0.002 difference. I understand why a scoreboard flips over in the last 60 seconds to counting tenths, because a player glancing up has the last minute of play to acclimate, not just the last 10 seconds.
It would be good to have a formula that lets you discount the effect of having a 1-0 lead so that all that's left is the tendency-to-win intangibles that accrue from having that first lead. A better stat might be comparing Cornell's ability to improve on a 1-goal lead vs. failure to maintain, or just maintain (ie, trade goals the rest of the way). Failure-to-maintain could be called the choke factor.
[quote billhoward]Failure-to-maintain could be called the choke factor.[/quote]
Couldn't we call it the Clarkson Factor, just to be more clear? ::crazy::
[quote Robb][quote billhoward]Failure-to-maintain could be called the choke factor.[/quote]
Couldn't we call it the Clarkson Factor, just to be more clear? ::crazy::[/quote]
Isn't that why we want Clk to finish as RS champs? Sorry Rich and the rest of you Clk fans, I just couldn't help myself.::drunk::Let's go have a beer.
No offense taken, Jim. I was never one for moral victories. Winning the RS, winning the ECAC, making it to the NCAA, winning round one, winning round two, making it to the final four, these are all moral victories. The bottom line is how many NC's do you have? and I have none.
All but one,"choke". It is just a matter of when.
Quotethe games used to be more enjoyable back in the old days! Even though we lost, no one who was at the Boston Garden for our 10-9 overtime loss to UNH in the ECAC semifinals in 1977 will ever forget that game.
While I can see why that game was exciting, I love a good defense. For some reason, I would rather have the 0-1 loss to Wisconsin, than a 10-9 loss. 5-7 total goals per game is enough for me. When there are 19 goals in a game, each goal somehow seems less meaningful. Maybe its because it seems like a team doesn't have to work quite as hard for each one.
[quote reilly83]
While I can see why that game was exciting, I love a good defense. For some reason, I would rather have the 0-1 loss to Wisconsin, than a 10-9 loss. 5-7 total goals per game is enough for me. When there are 19 goals in a game, each goal somehow seems less meaningful.[/quote]
Granted I may be biased since I am a goalie, but going back to my very successful high school soccer teams all the way through the Patriots' and Cornell Hockey's recent success, solid defense always seems to lead to winning seasons. Good offenses are fun to watch, but if your team wins or loses a 10-9 hockey game, many of those goals probably came from mistakes, defensive breakdowns, and shaky goaltending.
I think scoring opportunities are what make for exciting hockey. Last year's triple OT game in which both goaltenders played just crazy out-of-their minds while both defenses were rock solid is about as good as it gets IMO. Despite the score, there were plenty of good plays and scoring chances. It wasn't just 59 minutes of back-and-forth in the neutral zone with one minute of offense leading to the lone goal.
[quote cth95]I think scoring opportunities are what make for exciting hockey. Last year's triple OT game in which both goaltenders played just crazy out-of-their minds while both defenses were rock solid is about as good as it gets IMO. Despite the score, there were plenty of good plays and scoring chances. It wasn't just 110 minutes of back-and-forth in the neutral zone with one minute of offense leading to the lone goal.[/quote]
Fixed your post.
[quote Beeeej][quote cth95] It wasn't just 110 minutes of back-and-forth in the neutral zone with one minute of offense leading to the lone goal.[/quote]
Fixed your post.[/quote]
You're right about that game. :-) That's why it was such an amazing game.
I wrote 59 of 60 minutes thinking more generally.
[quote Drew]No offense taken, Jim. I was never one for moral victories. Winning the RS, winning the ECAC, making it to the NCAA, winning round one, winning round two, making it to the final four, these are all moral victories.[/quote]
I beg to differ. Winning the ECACs is an actual victory. The ECAC Championship may not be the National Championship, but it's still a championship.
[quote jtwcornell91][quote Drew]No offense taken, Jim. I was never one for moral victories. Winning the RS, winning the ECAC, making it to the NCAA, winning round one, winning round two, making it to the final four, these are all moral victories.[/quote]
I beg to differ. Winning the ECACs is an actual victory. The ECAC Championship may not be the National Championship, but it's still a championship.[/quote]
I hear ya, John and respect your opinion. I will concede the ECAC Championship, but I think you get the gist of my message, that these are all rungs in the ladder in the quest for the grail.
[quote Drew]I hear ya, John and respect your opinion. I will concede the ECAC Championship, but I think you get the gist of my message, that these are all rungs in the ladder in the quest for the grail.[/quote]
No, there are two ladders and two grails. I would rather win the ECAC title even if it meant being sent west in the regional than lose the final and stay home.
Nice, uh, half an article.
What kind of sick twisted mind would think that it was a good idea to let you read half the article and then force you to register to read the rest? I know its free and easy blah blah blash but it's just plain rude.
Don't worry, I have found a way to automatically sign up for any subscription website for free. Just register with me and I will tell you.:)
[quote Trotsky][quote Drew]I hear ya, John and respect your opinion. I will concede the ECAC Championship, but I think you get the gist of my message, that these are all rungs in the ladder in the quest for the grail.[/quote]
No, there are two ladders and two grails. I would rather win the ECAC title even if it meant being sent west in the regional than lose the final and stay home.[/quote]
Seems rather obvious to me, too.
[quote Al DeFlorio][quote Trotsky][quote Drew]I hear ya, John and respect your opinion. I will concede the ECAC Championship, but I think you get the gist of my message, that these are all rungs in the ladder in the quest for the grail.[/quote]
No, there are two ladders and two grails. I would rather win the ECAC title even if it meant being sent west in the regional than lose the final and stay home.[/quote]
Seems rather obvious to me, too.[/quote]I'll go you one better. I'd take an ECAC championship and a Round 2 loss (maybe even a Round 1 loss) over losing the ECAC's and making the Final Four.
I wouldn't care about the ECAC's if we made the Championship Game, though.
[quote ugarte] I'll go you one better. I'd take an ECAC championship and a Round 2 loss (maybe even a Round 1 loss) over losing the ECAC's and making the Final Four.
[/quote]
I can't agree with you here. You are saying you would have rather had Harvard's season than ours last year. Granted we have had a few ECAC titles recently, so it is a little easier to swallow than if we longed for one, but I think Cornell earned much more credit on the national scene than Harvard last year despite not quite making the Frozen Four.
Of course, an ECAC championship along with Final Eight or better would be nice. :-)
[quote Roy 82]Nice, uh, half an article.
What kind of sick twisted mind would think that it was a good idea to let you read half the article and then force you to register to read the rest? I know its free and easy blah blah blash but it's just plain rude.
Don't worry, I have found a way to automatically sign up for any subscription website for free. Just register with me and I will tell you.:)[/quote]
I just clicked the "printer friendly" link at the bottom of the page (or the "article tools" box), and that usually takes you to the full article. I just noticed that there's also a "single page" tool as well. Since it seems that boston.com lets you view 2 pages before asking you to register, you can get to either with one click. If it asks you to register, delete that cookie, I guess.
http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2007/02/11/big_question_on_campus_where_have_all_the_scorers_gone?mode=PF
http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2007/02/11/big_question_on_campus_where_have_all_the_scorers_gone/?page=full
Either that, or bugmenot.com put out a great firefox extension.
[quote cth95]Of course, an ECAC championship along with Final Eight or better would be nice. :-)[/quote]
Yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I'd rather have Cornell win an Ivy title, an ECAC championship, and a National Championship all in the same season than have root canal. :-)
[quote ugarte][quote Al DeFlorio][quote Trotsky][quote Drew]I hear ya, John and respect your opinion. I will concede the ECAC Championship, but I think you get the gist of my message, that these are all rungs in the ladder in the quest for the grail.[/quote]
No, there are two ladders and two grails. I would rather win the ECAC title even if it meant being sent west in the regional than lose the final and stay home.[/quote]
Seems rather obvious to me, too.[/quote]I'll go you one better. I'd take an ECAC championship and a Round 2 loss (maybe even a Round 1 loss) over losing the ECAC's and making the Final Four.
I wouldn't care about the ECAC's if we made the Championship Game, though.[/quote]
Making the Final Four, even if it's only as far as the semis, gets you more exposure (ESPN2?) on the national stage than an ECAC playoff title. I know you guys love the ECAC titles, we all do; but I'd take getting further up that bigger ladder if I had to make a choice.
[quote Rich S][quote ugarte][quote Al DeFlorio][quote Trotsky][quote Drew]I hear ya, John and respect your opinion. I will concede the ECAC Championship, but I think you get the gist of my message, that these are all rungs in the ladder in the quest for the grail.[/quote]
No, there are two ladders and two grails. I would rather win the ECAC title even if it meant being sent west in the regional than lose the final and stay home.[/quote]
Seems rather obvious to me, too.[/quote]I'll go you one better. I'd take an ECAC championship and a Round 2 loss (maybe even a Round 1 loss) over losing the ECAC's and making the Final Four.
I wouldn't care about the ECAC's if we made the Championship Game, though.[/quote]
Making the Final Four, even if it's only as far as the semis, gets you more exposure (ESPN2?) on the national stage than an ECAC playoff title. I know you guys love the ECAC titles, we all do; but I'd take getting further up that bigger ladder if I had to make a choice.[/quote]I love the ECAC's, but I totally agree. As much fun as the ECAC's are, the NCAA's top them, assumming you don't have to be in Minni.
[quote Jim Hyla][quote Rich S][quote ugarte][quote Al DeFlorio][quote Trotsky][quote Drew]I hear ya, John and respect your opinion. I will concede the ECAC Championship, but I think you get the gist of my message, that these are all rungs in the ladder in the quest for the grail.[/quote]
No, there are two ladders and two grails. I would rather win the ECAC title even if it meant being sent west in the regional than lose the final and stay home.[/quote]
Seems rather obvious to me, too.[/quote]I'll go you one better. I'd take an ECAC championship and a Round 2 loss (maybe even a Round 1 loss) over losing the ECAC's and making the Final Four.
I wouldn't care about the ECAC's if we made the Championship Game, though.[/quote]
Making the Final Four, even if it's only as far as the semis, gets you more exposure (ESPN2?) on the national stage than an ECAC playoff title. I know you guys love the ECAC titles, we all do; but I'd take getting further up that bigger ladder if I had to make a choice.[/quote]I love the ECAC's, but I totally agree. As much fun as the ECAC's are, the NCAA's top them, assumming you don't have to be in Minni.[/quote]
I admit that I may be a bit swayed by the fact that I actually go to Albany, so getting to watch the team hoist a trophy means a lot. As cth95 pointed out, though, that would mean a willingness to trade our postseason for Harvard's so I'm not as sure that I know my own feelings anymore.
Thanks a lot, jerk.
[quote ugarte][quote Jim Hyla][quote Rich S][quote ugarte][quote Al DeFlorio][quote Trotsky][quote Drew]I hear ya, John and respect your opinion. I will concede the ECAC Championship, but I think you get the gist of my message, that these are all rungs in the ladder in the quest for the grail.[/quote]
No, there are two ladders and two grails. I would rather win the ECAC title even if it meant being sent west in the regional than lose the final and stay home.[/quote]
Seems rather obvious to me, too.[/quote]I'll go you one better. I'd take an ECAC championship and a Round 2 loss (maybe even a Round 1 loss) over losing the ECAC's and making the Final Four.
I wouldn't care about the ECAC's if we made the Championship Game, though.[/quote]
Making the Final Four, even if it's only as far as the semis, gets you more exposure (ESPN2?) on the national stage than an ECAC playoff title. I know you guys love the ECAC titles, we all do; but I'd take getting further up that bigger ladder if I had to make a choice.[/quote]I love the ECAC's, but I totally agree. As much fun as the ECAC's are, the NCAA's top them, assumming you don't have to be in Minni.[/quote]
I admit that I may be a bit swayed by the fact that I actually go to Albany, so getting to watch the team hoist a trophy means a lot. As cth95 pointed out, though, that would mean a willingness to trade our postseason for Harvard's so I'm not as sure that I know my own feelings anymore.
Thanks a lot, jerk.[/quote]Jerk? Being funny, if so a smiley would help. If for real, to whom is it directed/
[quote ugarte][Thanks a lot, jerk.[/quote]Typical.
[quote Jim Hyla][quote ugarte]
Thanks a lot, jerk.[/quote]Jerk? Being funny, if so a smiley would help. If for real, to whom is it directed/[/quote]
I think he means me, since he said I made him doubt his original ideas. I am assuming the use of jerk is in a humorous mode, though, as with the Beeeej posts.
Ugarte, look on the bright side. If you are satisfied with a solid performance in the NCAA's, then an ECAC championship is icing on the cake and a loss doesn't hurt as much.
I'm not saying I don't care about ECAC championships. I've gone to all of the ones we have been in since 2002 in Lake Placid and I listened to 1996 on the radio the year after I graduated while I still lived in the area.
Like I said before, if forced to make a choice, I will take our national attention-gaining performance against elite teams last year over Harvard's banner, but then one-and-done. I also mentioned that my views may be skewed by the team's recent success and multiple championships. 1996 felt pretty damn good considering where we were during my time on the hill the previous few years. Unlike in 1996, recently an ECAC championship has almost been expected in the last few years, so my standards, expectations, and goals have gotten higher.
[quote cth95][quote Jim Hyla][quote ugarte]
Thanks a lot, jerk.[/quote]Jerk? Being funny, if so a smiley would help. If for real, to whom is it directed/[/quote]
I think he means me, since he said I made him doubt his original ideas. I am assuming the use of jerk is in a humorous mode, though, as with the Beeeej posts.[/quote]
Oh, sweet Lord, somewhere ugarte's head just exploded.
Clean-up on aisle Flatbush!
Is this possible, having common ground with RichS? Winning the ECACs is nice if you're a one-year-overachiever and new to this championship-level thing. But the real holy grail is the Frozen Four. That and winning it all. I've had enough of this ECAC-title-plus-heartbreaking-NCAA-Round-2-loss kind of existence.
[quote cth95][quote Jim Hyla][quote ugarte]
Thanks a lot, jerk.[/quote]Jerk? Being funny, if so a smiley would help. If for real, to whom is it directed/[/quote]
I think he means me, since he said I made him doubt his original ideas. I am assuming the use of jerk is in a humorous mode, though, as with the Beeeej posts.[/quote]Sorry it took so long to respond. I had to get my head back (http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/columbia_pictures/men_in_black_ii/jeebs.jpg).
Yes, I was talking to cth95.
[quote ugarte][quote Al DeFlorio][quote Trotsky][quote Drew]I hear ya, John and respect your opinion. I will concede the ECAC Championship, but I think you get the gist of my message, that these are all rungs in the ladder in the quest for the grail.[/quote]
No, there are two ladders and two grails. I would rather win the ECAC title even if it meant being sent west in the regional than lose the final and stay home.[/quote]
Seems rather obvious to me, too.[/quote]I'll go you one better. I'd take an ECAC championship and a Round 2 loss (maybe even a Round 1 loss) over losing the ECAC's and making the Final Four.
I wouldn't care about the ECAC's if we made the Championship Game, though.[/quote]
In 1986 when the ECAC was a powerful conference, I'd agree with you. Today I would much rather have a Frozen Four berth than an ECAC championship.
[quote Steve M]In 1986 when the ECAC was a powerful conference, I'd agree with you. Today I would much rather have a Frozen Four berth than an ECAC championship.[/quote]
That's not Sophie's Choice. The interesting and difficult question is: would you sacrifice an ECAC championship for one guaranteed advance in the NCAAs. In other words, door number one is an ECAC title and an NCAA bid. Door number two is no ECAC title but a guaranteed win in the round of 16.
For me, that's exactly 50/50.
[quote Trotsky][quote Steve M]In 1986 when the ECAC was a powerful conference, I'd agree with you. Today I would much rather have a Frozen Four berth than an ECAC championship.[/quote]
That's not Sophie's Choice. The interesting and difficult question is: would you sacrifice an ECAC championship for one guaranteed advance in the NCAAs. In other words, door number one is an ECAC title and an NCAA bid. Door number two is no ECAC title but a guaranteed win in the round of 16.
For me, that's exactly 50/50.[/quote]
If the question were: would you sacrifice an ECAC championship for one, and only one, advance in the NCAAs, the answer is easy for me: no. But if it's a guaranteed advance, and then you're on your own, where Cornell has perennially had the ability to beat any team on any given night if they rise to the occasion, then yes. I don't even have to think about it much. I don't like not winning the ECAC tournament, but I like having the opportunity to prove we can make it to the Frozen Four again. The last couple of years were agonizing quarterfinal defeats, but they were so damn close that I wouldn't mind getting another shot even if it meant not winning the ECAC title (like, for instance, last year).
[quote Trotsky][quote Steve M]In 1986 when the ECAC was a powerful conference, I'd agree with you. Today I would much rather have a Frozen Four berth than an ECAC championship.[/quote]
That's not Sophie's Choice. The interesting and difficult question is: would you sacrifice an ECAC championship for one guaranteed advance in the NCAAs. In other words, door number one is an ECAC title and an NCAA bid. Door number two is no ECAC title but a guaranteed win in the round of 16.
For me, that's exactly 50/50.[/quote]I think I'd choose the ECAC title every time. But I still value that title highly even if we never win the big one again.
Now if the choice were an ECAC title every or many years followed by a first round exit every time vs. a smaller number of titles followed by at least some NCAA wins I might be swayed. Harvard's utter lack of success this decade in the tournamnet is not something to be envied, even with the Whitelaw Trophies.
Fortunately none of us is ever given this chocie for real.
Edit: On further reflection I'd take the ECAC title anyway. I hope that when we do eventually win the long awaited national championship it's after winning the ECAC RS and tournaments.