Looking at the photos of Quinnipiac's new rink that's supposed to open in a month or two, I'm reminded of how much we screwed the pooch by not building a new rink on campus. Lynah's historic and all, blah blah blah, but we missed out on a chance at something great by not going new. And it's too bad. For the small fortune that we spent to do practically nothing to the rink, we could have chipped in a little bit more and gotten a brand new facility out by the orchards and kept Lynah as a rec/club/practice facility. Imagine the cash to be made by that... athletics missing the boat once again....
[quote bandrews37]Looking at the photos of Quinnipiac's new rink that's supposed to open in a month or two, I'm reminded of how much we screwed the pooch by not building a new rink on campus. Lynah's historic and all, blah blah blah, but we missed out on a chance at something great by not going new. And it's too bad. For the small fortune that we spent to do practically nothing to the rink, we could have chipped in a little bit more and gotten a brand new facility out by the orchards and kept Lynah as a rec/club/practice facility. Imagine the cash to be made by that... athletics missing the boat once again....[/quote]
Oh boy! Here we go with this discussion again.
Be careful what you ask for...New is not always better. A beautiful new arena, with nicely padded (wider) seats, & a jumbotron scoreboard ,etc sounds real nice. But, it's unlikely that you can build such a building and maintain the crowd noise level that is Lynah. Lose that, and over time, the program goes downhill. After all, isn't that what a lot of recruits have said made them want to attend Cornell?
IMO, they did a fine job in upgrading Lynah.
A new rink with padded seats, etc., and more capacity would be better for most not all fans, and there could always be some bench seat student sections for those who wanted closeness and density. For a new rink to make sense, it ought to seat 6,000, and that's $50 million plus, and we don't know that the Ithaca community would fill the place.
But college facilities really ought to be close to the students. Basketball has been relocated farther away, from Barton to Bartels. Soccer has been moved farther out. Tennis is off-campus. Lacrosse, going back a generation, played on Lower Alumni Field (R.I.P.) across from Barton. In some small way, the greater distance decreases the odds students will walk over and watch a game, and increases the sense the sports teams are isolated from, apart from Cornell.
What is the motivation for a new rink? More seats, so they can stop selling out games? Seats instead of benches, so it's harder to stand and harder to pack 30% more bodies into the student section? Greater volume, so it's harder for fans to fill the place with noise? A center-ice scoreboard, so we can get some computer-led "Charge!" chants going?
If there were a need for a larger rink, there would be an actual discussion here. But, the fact is: there's not. The only substantive complaint you could have made was the crappy state of the varsity facilities (e.g., locker rooms, weight rooms, meeting rooms, etc.), but they have either been upgraded already or are in the process of being so, so now Cornell's facilities are competitive with those of any program in the country.
Most importantly to me and (I daresay) most of the other fans who post here are the things that the Lynah atmosphere does bring to Cornell:
- recruits who are left speechless upon seeing the crowd at a game
- one of the few real, positive elements of community uniting students, faculty, and staff from every college, as well as a lot of non-Cornell Ithacans and even a few IK students
These could be lost by a new rink that wasn't properly designed. And given the current leadershit at the AD (hi, Andy!), you know it wouldn't be properly designed.
Provide us a single good reason why Lynah should be replaced, other than, "It isn't all new and shiny."
Kyle
[quote krose]Provide us a single good reason why Lynah should be replaced, other than, "It isn't all new and shiny."[/quote]
...or "I didn't get enough fiber this morning."
[quote bandrews37]Looking at the photos of Quinnipiac's new rink that's supposed to open in a month or two, I'm reminded of how much we screwed the pooch by not building a new rink on campus. Lynah's historic and all, blah blah blah, but we missed out on a chance at something great by not going new. And it's too bad. For the small fortune that we spent to do practically nothing to the rink, we could have chipped in a little bit more and gotten a brand new facility out by the orchards and kept Lynah as a rec/club/practice facility. Imagine the cash to be made by that... athletics missing the boat once again....[/quote]No. Have you ever been to Cheel? I rest my case.
have you ever been to cheel? it's actually very nice. the seats are confortable, it's loud, and just all around awesome. granted... it's not lynah... but it's awesome. we just need to get rid of the scoreboard message box and the piped in music.
[quote Dpperk29]have you ever been to cheel? it's actually very nice. the seats are confortable, it's loud, and just all around awesome. granted... it's not lynah... but it's awesome. we just need to get rid of the scoreboard message box and the piped in music.[/quote]I've been to Cheel. It feels antiseptic.
[quote Dpperk29]have you ever been to cheel? it's actually very nice. the seats are confortable, it's loud, and just all around awesome. granted... it's not lynah... but it's awesome. we just need to get rid of the scoreboard message box and the piped in music.[/quote]I figured I'd get a quick reply from you. :-D Yes, I've been to Cheel. Several times (in the 90's). It always felt cold and antispetic to me. Not especially loud either. Have you been over to Walker? I never managed to see a game there but I've been inside and from what I saw and the descriptions I can picture a game there. I would much rather see a game in the old barn.
If you want comfortable seats and amenities go with a new place like Cheel. If you want atmosphere stick with an old barm. There's no question in my mind, but YMMV.
[quote Dpperk29]have you ever been to cheel? it's actually very nice. the seats are confortable, it's loud, and just all around awesome. granted... it's not lynah... but it's awesome. we just need to get rid of the scoreboard message box and the piped in music.[/quote]
I've been, and I agree with what Keith and Josh have said about it. And if we had to build a modern style rink (for some reason) I would prefer to use Thompson as model much more so than Cheel.
I had them same feelings when I first went into cheel. but it grows on you. quickly. like I said... Cheel isn;t lynah. Lynah isn;t cheel. Comparing an old barn to a modern arena is like comparing Clarkson's engineering program to SLU's american history program... doesn;t really make sense.
[quote Dpperk29]I had them same feelings when I first went into cheel. but it grows on you. quickly. like I said... Cheel isn;t lynah. Lynah isn;t cheel. Comparing an old barn to a modern arena is like comparing Clarkson's engineering program to SLU's american history program... doesn;t really make sense.[/quote]I disagree. It does make sense to compare old and new because you're doing the same thing - watching a hockey game - in both. Besides, the OP was saying we should have built a new rink instead of renovating Lynah. Yuo have to compare the two options in order to make that decision. My assessment stands. I'd much ratehr go to a game in a place like Lynah or Walker or Appleton than a Cheel or Thompson.
I'm not surprised that Cheel has grown on you though. You're rooting for your school's team every time you go there. Antiseptic rink or not, you've got some good fans up there. Naturally you're going to come to like the experience at Cheel.
Quote- one of the few real, positive elements of community uniting students, faculty, and staff from every college, as well as a lot of non-Cornell Ithacans and even a few IK students
An nothing gives those on the South Hill the warm fuzzy feelings of positive elements of community like being referred to as "IK" ;)
[quote Jordan 04]An nothing gives those on the South Hill the warm fuzzy feelings of positive elements of community like being referred to as "IK" ;)[/quote]
LOL. I couldn't resist.
Of the few Ithaca College alumni I know, about half of them I met through watching Cornell hockey. Sounds strange, but it's true. I also know that there are students there who don't have a chip on their shoulder, and laugh good-naturedly at "IK". They expect it from us: we're assholes. ;)
Cheer,
Kyle
[quote KeithK][quote Dpperk29]I had them same feelings when I first went into cheel. but it grows on you. quickly. like I said... Cheel isn;t lynah. Lynah isn;t cheel. Comparing an old barn to a modern arena is like comparing Clarkson's engineering program to SLU's american history program... doesn;t really make sense.[/quote]I disagree. It does make sense to compare old and new because you're doing the same thing - watching a hockey game - in both. Besides, the OP was saying we should have built a new rink instead of renovating Lynah. Yuo have to compare the two options in order to make that decision. My assessment stands. I'd much ratehr go to a game in a place like Lynah or Walker or Appleton than a Cheel or Thompson.
I'm not surprised that Cheel has grown on you though. You're rooting for your school's team every time you go there. Antiseptic rink or not, you've got some good fans up there. Naturally you're going to come to like the experience at Cheel.[/quote]
It is antiseptic. Outside the student section the place is a morgue. Walker was much more intimidating. I know guys that played against Clarkson in Walker and they said it was like "...a riot inside the place every time".
[quote krose][quote Jordan 04]An nothing gives those on the South Hill the warm fuzzy feelings of positive elements of community like being referred to as "IK" ;)[/quote]
LOL. I couldn't resist.
Of the few Ithaca College alumni I know, about half of them I met through watching Cornell hockey. Sounds strange, but it's true. I also know that there are students there who don't have a chip on their shoulder, and laugh good-naturedly at "IK". They expect it from us: we're assholes. ;)
Cheer,
Kyle[/quote]
I know quite a few IC grads; in fact, I'm related to a few. And yes, most do think you're arrogant a-holes.;-)
They also point out, fwiw, that IC overlooks the Hill that overlooks Cayuga's waters.
Take it as you will.
[quote Rich S]
They also point out, fwiw, that IC overlooks the Hill that overlooks Cayuga's waters.
Take it as you will.[/quote]That is actually a very good line.
And a semicolon isn't an apostrophe. Sorry, couldn't resist.
Back on topic, the switch from Maalox green walls to something a bit closer to, well, green, helped the look a lot. But the place still feels very cold. Nothing says intimate like a full wall of one-way-glass luxury boxes, or whatever the hell is up there.
We've had an unusual amount of games at Cheel scheduled over winter break in the last ten years or so and those games were a perfect example. When you take all or most of the band and students out of Cheel, it's a morgue. A full house and band help combat that, but it only goes so far. Even a half-full Lynah or Appleton still feels intimate.
Having said all that, it's great having the rest of the complex and all that it offers right outside the rink, especially when you consider what's outside of that.
[quote Josh '99][quote Dpperk29]have you ever been to cheel? it's actually very nice. the seats are confortable, it's loud, and just all around awesome. granted... it's not lynah... but it's awesome. we just need to get rid of the scoreboard message box and the piped in music.[/quote]I've been to Cheel. It feels antiseptic.[/quote]
How recently was your last visit to Cheel? The change in recent years has been significant.
Granted, it felt very antiseptic when it opened in the early 90s, but anything would feel that way compared to old Walker, nee Clarkson Arena. Having experienced Clarkson Arena at its intimidating best in the early 70s and then having been at Cheel several times in the first few years, I had that same reaction.
But several changes in the past half-dozen years have improved the "feel" at Cheel. Uniforms of alumni who have played or currently are playing in the NHL, photos of the past teams and coaches, All-American plaques, and trophies with lots of memorabilia give it a warmer atmosphere.
Obviously, better attendance and more vocal support in response to better results the past couple of years helps too. Think back to what Lynah was like during the pre-Schafer down years.
Anything that would replace Lynah would feel antiseptic too.
In Clarkson's case, they HAD to replace Walker, not just to help recruiting but also because it had become prohibitively expensive to maintain anmong other reasons.
Of notable mention also is that all the money to construct Cheel Campus Center, which also contains the Student Center, for those who have not been there, came from private funds, the product of a very successful capital campaign.
I'll be at Cheel this coming weekend but anticipate less vocal support since few students will be there due to the holiday.
[quote Dpperk29][Cheel is] actually very nice. the seats are confortable, it's loud, and just all around awesome... it's awesome.[/quote]
Did I actually just hear a student laud a barn because its seats are comfortable? Dude, this is hockey, not the Mall Walking Society. Middle aged turds like me are supposed to sit down, but you're supposed to stand.
Cheel is not awesome. Cheel is the physical manifestation of a lack of respect for tradition, which is the last thing one should expect from Clarkson. "Antiseptic" doesn't capture the lameness of the place. Those vast, empty interior walls (and their pastel hospital-wallpaper-green color) make Cheel feel like an East German senior citizen rehab center. Combine that with the piped in music, the pre-fab ceiling, and the operating room lighting, and you get one of the worst on-campus rink ambiences ever -- and I'm talking when compared to other modern facilities, apples-to-apples.
[quote Rich S]Anything that would replace Lynah would feel antiseptic too.[/quote]
I think that's a rather sweeping overgeneralization. Certainly anything that would replace Lynah would feel different, but there is no requirement for every brand-new rink to feel antiseptic or soulless simply because it's brand-new. There's plenty of room in design and construction for achieving a welcoming feel right out of the gate.
I haven't been to Cheel in several years (when was the huge ice storm, 1999?), but I'll take your word for it feeling warmer and more like "home" these days.
[quote CowbellGuy]And a semicolon isn't an apostrophe. Sorry, couldn't resist.
[/quote]
sorry age... the right pinky isn't as flexible or accurate as it's suppose to be... it's been broken twice... just doesn't work like it should...
[quote Hillel Hoffmann][quote Dpperk29][Cheel is] actually very nice. the seats are confortable, it's loud, and just all around awesome... it's awesome.[/quote]
Did I actually just hear a student laud a barn because its seats are comfortable? Dude, this is hockey, not the Mall Walking Society. Middle aged turds like me are supposed to sit down, but you're supposed to stand.
Cheel is not awesome. Cheel is the physical manifestation of a lack of respect for tradition, which is the last thing one should expect from Clarkson. "Antiseptic" doesn't capture the lameness of the place. Those vast, empty interior walls (and their pastel hospital-wallpaper-green color) make Cheel feel like an East German senior citizen rehab center. Combine that with the piped in music, the pre-fab ceiling, and the operating room lighting, and you get one of the worst on-campus rink ambiences ever -- and I'm talking when compared to other modern facilities, apples-to-apples.[/quote]
It appears your last visit to Cheel was many years ago.
The lousy green walls were repainted long ago, and the "vast interior walls" have not been "empty" for at least the same period. See my post above for more details.
What's a "pre-fab" ceiling? Would you prefer they put in one with asbestos?
trying to compare apples to apples, that's fine but please try to have current info on the fruit. :-D
I don't think it's a sweeping generalization at all. Yes, there is some room for trying to capture a previous environment but in Lynah's case,as was posted here the last time this topic came up, current construction codes somewhat limit the options.
There are more examples of modern facilities that don't come close to replicating the atmosphere of its predecessor than there are of those that capture the same feel and soul. Fleet Center anyone?
Clarkson Arena will always feel like "home" to me, and naturally so, I was a student then. As much as I will always love that atmosphere, I also understand that the building was a dinosaur. Personally, I appreciate the modern amenities. But I do hope the students, with help from alumni like myself, make more noise consistently!
No need to take my word for it on the current Cheel. Take a road trip after Thanksgiving to Cheel. You can find me there easily. Walk on over and say hello.
Oops...never mind. :-}
Cheel : Walker :: "Modern" Hockey : Old-time Hockey :: somewhat quiet, antiseptic, warm, distracted, "family" : loud, characterful, frigid, intense, "collegiate"
Visiting Clarkson with my parents and sister (checking out SUNY-Postdam) when I was just a wee lad ('89), I was foisted on my sister's then-boyfriend, who was a member of the Clarkson Pep Band, for a hockey weekend. My swiss-cheese memory remembers the weekend as against Princeton and Yale, but that would've been impossible given the travel pairings at the time.
So, in old Walker, I watched Clarkson dismantle Brown and Yale (by scores of 11-3 and 4-1, respectively) while playing with the band. Two things about the Walker experience impressed me: my feet were absolutely frozen by the end of both games and, even in the 11-3 rout, the fans were loud, vulgar, and constantly intense. Clarkson almost made it onto my college application list because of that weekend.
The other thing you have to remember about Walker is that the ice surface was "unusual" (181' x 91': http://members.aol.com/todnielson/ncaadiv1/ecac/clarkson/tenyears.html) and Clarkson teams were built for it. Since the move to "regulation" 200' x 85', Clarkson hasn't really looked as much like Clarkson. (I'm not particularly sure, but Cheel's sheet always looks a bit more expansive than Lynah's, even though they're supposedly the same.) This small ice was advantageous for Clarkson for two reasons: similarity to the Boston Garden, which you can hear Teddy D whining about in this Crimson article http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=126685; and sheer unfamiliarity for visiting teams, which supposedly irked the last victim, Wisconsin's Sauer, quite a bit http://www.goldenknightshockey.com/roundtable/showthread.php?t=410.
Cheel's OK. Walker was wonderful.
[quote CowbellGuy]And a semicolon isn't an apostrophe. Sorry, couldn't resist.
Back on topic, the switch from Maalox green walls to something a bit closer to, well, green, helped the look a lot. But the place still feels very cold. Nothing says intimate like a full wall of one-way-glass luxury boxes, or whatever the hell is up there.
We've had an unusual amount of games at Cheel scheduled over winter break in the last ten years or so and those games were a perfect example. When you take all or most of the band and students out of Cheel, it's a morgue. A full house and band help combat that, but it only goes so far. Even a half-full Lynah or Appleton still feels intimate.
Having said all that, it's great having the rest of the complex and all that it offers right outside the rink, especially when you consider what's outside of that.[/quote]
No luxury boxes at Cheel, are you kidding me? This is the North Country!
"Whatever the hell is up there" is the Barben Room, which is meeting space/ a dining facility, and is used for pre-game meals and post game gatherings for Booster Club members. Very much a multi-purpose facilty.
I've been to Lynah and Appleton when they were much less than full and comparatively quiet. Not much intimacy there. :-D
I agree that the added locker rooms and such were very much needed, however to take a 3800 seat venue without a bad seat in the house and increase the seating to 4200 with many obstructed view seats doesn't make much sense.
[quote Rich S]
Anything that would replace Lynah would feel antiseptic too.
In Clarkson's case, they HAD to replace Walker, not just to help recruiting but also because it had become prohibitively expensive to maintain anmong other reasons.
Of notable mention also is that all the money to construct Cheel Campus Center, which also contains the Student Center, for those who have not been there, came from private funds, the product of a very successful capital campaign.
[/quote]
Money is the big issue. Lynah hasn't been replaced out of respect for tradition, maybe, but also because they decided the maintenance costs are bearable. At some point, maybe not too far off into the future, Lynah will become prohibitively expensive to maintain, or fire codes will change, or some wealthy alum will donate $100 million for a new hockey arena, and the AD will decide it's time to build a new rink. It's more likely to happen if the money for the rinnk comes from private funds and donations, and it's not likely to happen within the next 10 years due to the recent renovations, but it'll happen eventually.
I just hope when it does that they don't try to create a modern, fire-code-friendly, expanded version of Lynah. They need to build a good facility that makes it possible for the students to re-create the game-time *atmosphere* of Lynah, which (apart from the history of the building) is what makes it special. Any attempts to build that into the rink will surely backfire.
[quote Rich S][quote Hillel Hoffmann][quote Dpperk29][Cheel is] actually very nice. the seats are confortable, it's loud, and just all around awesome... it's awesome.[/quote]
Did I actually just hear a student laud a barn because its seats are comfortable? Dude, this is hockey, not the Mall Walking Society. Middle aged turds like me are supposed to sit down, but you're supposed to stand.
Cheel is not awesome. Cheel is the physical manifestation of a lack of respect for tradition, which is the last thing one should expect from Clarkson. "Antiseptic" doesn't capture the lameness of the place. Those vast, empty interior walls (and their pastel hospital-wallpaper-green color) make Cheel feel like an East German senior citizen rehab center. Combine that with the piped in music, the pre-fab ceiling, and the operating room lighting, and you get one of the worst on-campus rink ambiences ever -- and I'm talking when compared to other modern facilities, apples-to-apples.[/quote]
It appears your last visit to Cheel was many years ago. The lousy green walls were repainted long ago, and the "vast interior walls" have not been "empty" for at least the same period.[/quote]
Too true! Haven't been there these last few years. So you're telling me that they have something on those vast walls way above the seats? These walls, I mean (picture from Todd N's site): http://members.aol.com/cmhockey2/photos/cheel.inside.gif If so, then maybe Cheel has graduated from horrific to tolerable (at least once the piped in music bites the dust).
The dollars donated by Clarkson friends and alumni could have been used so much better. There are plenty of fabulous modern barns that accomplish so much more. I like Quinnipiac's renderings, for example. Their planned new rink also shares a wall with another facility. Now that's a ceiling, my man: http://graphics.fansonly.com/schools/quic/graphics/hud-hockey-250.jpg
[quote Rich S]How recently was your last visit to Cheel? The change in recent years has been significant.
Granted, it felt very antiseptic when it opened in the early 90s, but anything would feel that way compared to old Walker, nee Clarkson Arena. ...
But several changes in the past half-dozen years have improved the "feel" at Cheel.[/quote]I haven't made it to Cheel since 1999. I'd heard that they'd taken steps to improve the place, including the new paint job. That's good to hear.
[quote Rich S]Anything that would replace Lynah would feel antiseptic too.[/quote]
I agree with you that anything that replaced Lynah would feel somewhat antiseptic in comparison. That was my point in using the Cheel example to refute the oringal poster. Yes, a new arena doesn't have to feel like a morgue - good design and attention to detail can result in a nice place. But inevitably the focus in new arenas on "amenities" like boxes, comfy seats, cupholders, etc. makes it difficult to create the kind of intimacy you have in old arenas. Not to mention fire codes. For example, Wider, comfortable seats don't pack as densely as bench seating. High ceilings that support center ice scoreboards tend to make the environment less loud.
[quote Rich S]In Clarkson's case, they HAD to replace Walker, not just to help recruiting but also because it had become prohibitively expensive to maintain anmong other reasons.[/quote]I can understand that. From what little I saw I can imagine that renovating it to provide off ice facilities needed for recruiting would be difficult and expensive. I'm just glad that we have been able to do that with Lynah.
Just for the record, my reference to Cheel in post #6 was NOT to slam Clarkson. I was just using Cheel (specifically as I remember from the mid to late 90's) as an example of what you often get when you build a new rink.
[quote Hillel Hoffmann]Cheel is not awesome. Cheel is the physical manifestation of a lack of respect for tradition, which is the last thing one should expect from Clarkson. "Antiseptic" doesn't capture the lameness of the place. Those vast, empty interior walls (and their pastel hospital-wallpaper-green color) make Cheel feel like an East German senior citizen rehab center.[/quote]There you go, now you're going to have RichS angry at you for comparing Cheel to East Germany, and JTW angry at you for comparing East Germany to Cheel. ::panic::
I would submit as a reason to not renovate Lynah two other examples. Snively Rink at UNH was a great old barn where the students were right on top of the action. Now in the new Whitemore Center Arena, oh wait excuse me Towse Rink at the Whitemore Center, the students are stuck in the ends of the rink behind the netting at either end. Not only divided but also on the ends makes them a total non-factor in the arena. I go to a lot of games there and it can get loud but nothing like a packed house at Lively Snively. In addition, they have an Olympic sized ice sheet so you are farther away to start, there are luxery boxes at one end, piped in music with no band and advertisements everywhere. Every time I walk in I long for Lynah and the Faithful.
The second example was the renovation to Starr Rink after the run to the national final by Colgate in 1989(?). They took out the entire student section, put in arm back chairs and moved them to a tiny section across the rink. No wonder they don't show up until mid way through the second period if at all. OK maybe that is a bad example but I have never been to Cheel.
I guess the point is Cornell has THE environment for college hockey in the Northeast. Nothing matches it except maybe Alfond Arena. Let's not mess it up...we have a good thing going here.
[quote Josh '99][quote Hillel Hoffmann]Cheel is not awesome. Cheel is the physical manifestation of a lack of respect for tradition, which is the last thing one should expect from Clarkson. "Antiseptic" doesn't capture the lameness of the place. Those vast, empty interior walls (and their pastel hospital-wallpaper-green color) make Cheel feel like an East German senior citizen rehab center.[/quote]There you go, now you're going to have RichS angry at you for comparing Cheel to East Germany, and JTW angry at you for comparing East Germany to Cheel. ::panic::[/quote]
nah, that's priceless! :-D
[quote DFORD '94]The second example was the renovation to Starr Rink after the run to the national final by Colgate in 1989(?). They took out the entire student section, put in arm back chairs and moved them to a tiny section across the rink. No wonder they don't show up until mid way through the second period if at all. OK maybe that is a bad example but I have never been to Cheel.[/quote]I agree with you in general, but I don't really think the rink renovation is why the drunk Colgate assholes don't show up until the second period. I mean, Princeton's rink still has a nice old barn kind of a feel, and their drunk asshole students don't show up until the THIRD period.
[quote DFORD '94]The second example was the renovation to Starr Rink after the run to the national final by Colgate in 1989(?).[/quote]
1990 is when Colgate lost to Wisconsin. 1989 was Hahvahd's year over Minnesota.
[quote Hillel Hoffmann]The dollars donated by Clarkson friends and alumni could have been used so much better. There are plenty of fabulous modern barns that accomplish so much more. I like Quinnipiac's renderings, for example. Their planned new rink also shares a wall with another facility.[/quote]
You can have a modern facility and still maintain intimacy. I'll make a parallel with baseball stadiums of the early '90s. Compare Skydome (now Rodgers Centre) and New Comiskey (now US Cellular) with Camden Yards, and Coors Field. Some did things right, others didn't. Some thought to showcase the architecture, others thought to give the fans an experience.
Cheel is tough for me. I want to like it, really. It's been a couple years since the last time I've been, and the improvements they made between '93-'00 were already quite good. The entire Cheel Center is a terrific addition to the campus, and I can't say enough about Club 99. One of my biggest complaints, as a former visiting bandie was that the nature of the room just seemed to suck sound. It was HARD to fill that space with noise as a band.
Now I'm no architect, but there are some rinks, and Cheel is one of them, where the building seems to try to hide the crowd. Cheel, Starr, and Bright all give me that feeling. I'll tell you a new, modern arena that I'm itching to go see...Agganis Arena. Every photo I see, I believe more and more that this is a wonderful atmosphere for BU. Compare the photos. At Agganis, it looks like the players are playing for people. At Cheel and Starr, it looks like the players are playing for walls and ceilings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Inside_Agganis_Arena.jpg
http://members.aol.com/cmhockey2/photos/cheel.inside.gif
http://athletics.colgate.edu/facilities/fac-starr.htm
http://www.chtg.net/schools/images/harvard_arena.jpg
At the Harvard @ Lynah game 2 weeks ago, I was impressed with the student sections. They were there early, everyone was wearing Red and White, and it was as loud as all get-out...but I think the most striking thing was what the expanded seating has done (besides give the top row some rafters to avoid): the student sections look more like a wall of people. I'll probably always miss the open concourse, where you can walk around without losing sight of the ice, but man...just having an entire bank of screaming people running from the glass to the ceiling is pretty neat.
[quote Rich S]They also point out, fwiw, that IC overlooks the Hill that overlooks Cayuga's waters.[/quote]
Totally heavy, man. Now pass the joint.
Maybe Hoboken can adapt the line.
Cool.
I lived in Hoboken for nine years. Then I went and got married and messed it up and had to move. :-}
[quote Josh '99][quote Hillel Hoffmann]Cheel is not awesome. Cheel is the physical manifestation of a lack of respect for tradition, which is the last thing one should expect from Clarkson. "Antiseptic" doesn't capture the lameness of the place. Those vast, empty interior walls (and their pastel hospital-wallpaper-green color) make Cheel feel like an East German senior citizen rehab center.[/quote]There you go, now you're going to have RichS angry at you for comparing Cheel to East Germany, and JTW angry at you for comparing East Germany to Cheel. ::panic::[/quote]
Have you ever been to East Germany? OK, so the industrial areas were terribly polluted, and the people were enemies of the state, but it has beautiful countryside and lots of historical sites (like Buchenwald)!
Just kidding. :-P
[quote Jeff Hopkins '82][quote Josh '99][quote Hillel Hoffmann]Cheel is not awesome. Cheel is the physical manifestation of a lack of respect for tradition, which is the last thing one should expect from Clarkson. "Antiseptic" doesn't capture the lameness of the place. Those vast, empty interior walls (and their pastel hospital-wallpaper-green color) make Cheel feel like an East German senior citizen rehab center.[/quote]There you go, now you're going to have RichS angry at you for comparing Cheel to East Germany, and JTW angry at you for comparing East Germany to Cheel. ::panic::[/quote]
but it has beautiful countryside and lots of historical sites
:-P[/quote]
Like both Potsdam and Ithaca!
[quote RichH]Now I'm no architect, but there are some rinks, and Cheel is one of them, where the building seems to try to hide the crowd. Bright [gives] me that feeling. [/quote]What crowd?
[quote Jeff Hopkins '82]Have you ever been to East Germany? [/quote]Actually, yes, in August. :-P
[quote Josh '99][quote RichH]Now I'm no architect, but there are some rinks, and Cheel is one of them, where the building seems to try to hide the crowd. Bright [gives] me that feeling. [/quote]What crowd?[/quote]
You know...us.
Keep in mind that the Clarkson and greater Potsdam community are both much smaller than their counterparts in Ithaca. Plus the hockey fans in the surrounding area can opt for a game at Slu just ten miles down the road on virtually every night there's a game at Cheel.
Attendance and noise levels at Cheel are up since last year began so that bodes well for Tech as well as for your visit.
[quote Rich S]Keep in mind that the Clarkson and greater Potsdam community are both much smaller than their counterparts in Ithaca. Plus the hockey fans in the surrounding area can opt for a game at Slu just ten miles down the road on virtually every night there's a game at Cheel.
Attendance and noise levels at Cheel are up since last year began so that bodes well for Tech as well as for your visit.[/quote]I'm pretty sure that Josh '99 was referring to Bright, not Cheel.
[quote RichH][quote Josh '99][quote RichH]Now I'm no architect, but there are some rinks, and Cheel is one of them, where the building seems to try to hide the crowd. Bright [gives] me that feeling. [/quote]What crowd?[/quote]
You know...us.[/quote]I guess that explains why they want to hide the crowd.
(Yes, I mean Bright.)
[quote Rich S][quote Jeff Hopkins '82][quote Josh '99][quote Hillel Hoffmann]Cheel is not awesome. Cheel is the physical manifestation of a lack of respect for tradition, which is the last thing one should expect from Clarkson. "Antiseptic" doesn't capture the lameness of the place. Those vast, empty interior walls (and their pastel hospital-wallpaper-green color) make Cheel feel like an East German senior citizen rehab center.[/quote]There you go, now you're going to have RichS angry at you for comparing Cheel to East Germany, and JTW angry at you for comparing East Germany to Cheel. ::panic::[/quote]
but it has beautiful countryside and lots of historical sites
:-P[/quote]
Like both Potsdam and Ithaca![/quote]
Park Sanssouci in Potsdam is indeed beautiful and historical, but I'm pretty sure Ithaca is in Greece, not East Germany.
[quote Cop at Lynah]I agree that the added locker rooms and such were very much needed, however to take a 3800 seat venue without a bad seat in the house and increase the seating to 4200 with many obstructed view seats doesn't make much sense.[/quote]
Are there any new obstructed seats aside from the ones behind the goals? The box seats along the townie side seemed fine, and the view from C is as good as it ever was.
[quote KeithK]Just for the record, my reference to Cheel in post #6 was NOT to slam Clarkson. I was just using Cheel (specifically as I remember from the mid to late 90's) as an example of what you often get when you build a new rink.[/quote]
A contemporary example is BU trading in Walter Brown for Harry Agganis. HAA's biggest flaw in the one game I saw there was the piped in music and cheesy TV timeout games. Paging Mark...
What you get is a much-needed (in both the hockey sense and as a meeting place on the Hill campus), privately financed, multi-purpose, very versatile facility with top notch medical and workout rooms, etc.
If it lacks a bit of feel and atmosphere that a more than 50 year old, antiquated, expensive-to-maintain, and impossible/impractical to renovate or expand facility had, I can accept that given th etype of facility that had to be constructed.
Any Clarkson supporter who ever saw a game at Clarkson/Walker Arena loved it and misses the atmosphere of that old barn. Just the fact that Coach Sauer wanted it razed is testament to its attractiveness.
But its time had passed and the Cheel Campus Center met the university's needs on several levels. Having been very involved in the Alumni Board at the time, I attended the meetings when all of the issues were discussed.
No two schools have the same set of needs or resources or approaches to construction. No two rinks will be the same.
Kudos to Clarkson for making improvements to Cheel since its opening. You can hope that Lynah will be replaced, when the time comes by the "perfect" arena, but that rarely happens.
[quote Rich S]
Any Clarkson supporter who ever saw a game at Clarkson/Walker Arena loved it and misses the atmosphere of that old barn. Just the fact that Coach Sauer wanted it razed is testament to its attractiveness.[/quote]I'm not sure I get what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that the building was so ugly (I'm not trying to offend, I promise) that even though it was rich in history and full of good memories, Coach Sauer wanted it torn down?
It wasn't ugly but it was chilly, despite the fact that heat had been put in after the '71 season, rather dark, small (1800 appprox), cramped so that the few rows of fans felt like they were on top of the players, a small ice surface and in short intimidating!
In '91, Sauer's team had just lost an NCAA series at Walker which represented the final games played at the old barn. Obviously having been used to the more spacious and attractive western rinks (mostly) he was apparently very frustrated. His complaint fell into the category of saying that playing tournament games at on-campus sites gives the home team an unfair advantage.
I think everyone here is familiar with that argument.
He clearly demonstrated that by hollering while standing in the parking lot afterwards that the "f'in place should be burned down." Etc, etc... May not be an exact quote but I heard the story from a few friends who were there and witnessed his tirade. Not sure if he was aware that he had just coached in the final games ever.
I think earlier in this thread someone posted a link to a story about this. I know that a few years back when Sauer was an ESPN analyst during the Final Four, someone brought this up to him. It touched a sore nerve.
FYI, Tech was undefeated (with one tie) at home that year. Drew can no doubt provide more details. That was also Clarkson's last appearance at the Final Four.
Perhaps there's a message there. We need to go back to playing at a refurbished Walker!!!! :-)
The shorter answer: Sauer was coachign Wisconsin, not Clarkson. I can't think of a more ringing endorsement of a place than to have the opposing coach wish that it were burned down.
[quote Rich S]Kudos to Clarkson for making improvements to Cheel since its opening. You can hope that Lynah will be replaced, when the time comes by the "perfect" arena, but that rarely happens.[/quote]You're right - a replacement for Lynah would almost certainly not be the perfect arena. That's why I want them to keep Lynah as long as possible - better to keep the great place that we do have than the uncertainty (and for me likely disappointment) of a new arena.
Edit for typos.
[quote KeithK][quote Rich S]Kudos to Clarkson for making improvements to Cheel since its opening. You can hope that Lynah will be replaced, when the time comes by the "perfect" arena, but that rarely happens.[/quote]You're right - a replacement for Lynah would almost certainly not be the perfect arena. That's why I want them to keep Lynah as long as possible - better to keep the great place that we do have than the uncertainty 9and for me likely disappointment) of a new arena.[/quote]What if they replaced Lynah with a new arena ... but put it in Lake Placid.
[quote ugarte][quote KeithK][quote Rich S]Kudos to Clarkson for making improvements to Cheel since its opening. You can hope that Lynah will be replaced, when the time comes by the "perfect" arena, but that rarely happens.[/quote]You're right - a replacement for Lynah would almost certainly not be the perfect arena. That's why I want them to keep Lynah as long as possible - better to keep the great place that we do have than the uncertainty 9and for me likely disappointment) of a new arena.[/quote]What if they replaced Lynah with a new arena ... but put it in Lake Placid.[/quote]
Is this Lake Placid you speak of in/near the Plantations? Why can't we just keep sports near the main campus? (And why would we put a rink IN a lake?)
[quote Rich S]What you get is a much-needed (in both the hockey sense and as a meeting place on the Hill campus), privately financed, multi-purpose, very versatile facility with top notch medical and workout rooms, etc.[/quote]It's all well and good that Cheel is privately financed, and centrally located, and a multi-purpose facility (what with being located in, or maybe it's technically adjoining, the student union), and has good medical and workout facilities. Those are all, I'd say, positive attributes. But I think those are still entirely separate from the aesthetic attributes of *the rink itself*.
To take the simplest example - one of the criticisms of Cheel is the shade of green that the walls are (were?) painted. That's obviously entirely divorced from the elements of the larger structure that are external to the rink - they could just as easily be purple or off-white or polka-dotted. I think the same separation applies to other criticisms, such as RichH's point that it feels like it "hides the crowd".
[quote Josh '99][quote Rich S]What you get is a much-needed (in both the hockey sense and as a meeting place on the Hill campus), privately financed, multi-purpose, very versatile facility with top notch medical and workout rooms, etc.[/quote]It's all well and good that Cheel is privately financed, and centrally located, and a multi-purpose facility (what with being located in, or maybe it's technically adjoining, the student union), and has good medical and workout facilities. Those are all, I'd say, positive attributes. But I think those are still entirely separate from the aesthetic attributes of *the rink itself*.
To take the simplest example - one of the criticisms of Cheel is the shade of green that the walls are (were?) painted. That's obviously entirely divorced from the elements of the larger structure that are external to the rink - they could just as easily be purple or off-white or polka-dotted. I think the same separation applies to other criticisms, such as RichH's point that it feels like it "hides the crowd".[/quote]Similarly, the virtues of Lynah as a hockey facility are largely independant of the building that the rink is now attached too (the Fieldhouse formerly known as Alberding). The multi-purpose room, weight room facility and basketball court are all valuable additions to the Cornell campus but I don't care one way or the other when I'm watching a hockey game.
The top 3 rows on the south side have obstucted views of the corners. Sections A/B can not see corner by F/G and vise versa.
[quote Cop at Lynah]The top 3 rows on the south side have obstucted views of the corners. Sections A/B can not see corner by F/G and vise versa.[/quote]
Is this obstruction from, for instance, rafters or the press box? Because when I was in B in 03-04 and 04-05, I could never see the F/G corner. I doubt anyone under 6 feet could.