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Cornell football coach

Posted by billhoward 
Cornell football coach
Posted by: billhoward (---.cdn77.com)
Date: November 08, 2023 11:24AM

Poll
What happens to David Archer after the 2023 season?
Voting is currently disabled for this poll.
39 votes were received.
Dismissed 6
 
15%
Dismissed, remains at Cornell in another job 13
 
33%
1-year extension if team finishes 5-5 4
 
10%
Retained, no conditions cited 16
 
41%



(See Ken711's post "New Cornell football coach search" for discussion on the search to replace David Archer. This November 2023 thread has been on the the possibilities of a coaching change; with Archer departed, it's no longer germane.)

With 2 games left in the 2023 season, David Archer has a .296 career winning average (.279 Ivy). The best of his 10 seasons overall was last year's 5-5; the best Ivy season was 2019 with a tie for fourth/fifth with a 3-4 record.

Cornell has had 27 head football coaches going back to Marshall Newell in 1894-1896 (no head coach 1887-94). Only three coaches have Cornell HC careers running into double-digit years: Archer 10, Lefty James 14 (1947-61) and Gil Dobie 16 (1920-36, 3 national championships).

Archer's predecessors at Cornell lasted this many seasons: 3 (Kent Austin, the immediate predecessor), 6, 3, 3, 8 (Jim Hofher), 1, 6, 6, 2, 9 (Jack Musick) and 5. BTW the 2-season coach with a .167 W-L percentage was George Seifert, the same Seifert who won two Super Bowls coaching San Francisco and when he left the 49ers had the league's second highest winning percentage ever. Maybe Cornell helped his upward path.

Of the current Ivy football coaches with at least 5 years experience, all but one are .600 or better (records through end of 2022 season):
Harvard    Tim Murphy    1994* .688 overall 
Princeton  Bob Surace    2010  .608
Yale       Tony Reno     2012  .600
Cornell    David Archer  2013  .289  
Penn       Ray Priore    2015  .600
* first year as head coach

If you were the athletics director and wanted regime change, what year would you have done it? After just 3 seasons with a total of 5 wins? Certainly not after 2016 with the 3-win improvement. Perhaps fter 2018 with the back-to-back 3-8 seasons? In the 2-8 year after the cancelled Covid season? Not after 2022's 5-5.

Year	W	L	Ivy     Ivy Finish
2013 	3       7       2-5       7th
2014	1	9	1-6	  7th	
2015	1	9	1-6	t-7th	
2016	4	6	2-5	t-6th	
2017	3	7	3-4	t-5th	
2018	3	7	2-5	  7th	
2019	4	6	3-4	t-4th
2020    Covid, no competition                 	
2021	2	8	1-6	t-6th	
2022	5	5	2-5	t-6th	
TOTALS	26	64	17-46

Why nothing happened in the years after the 4-6 2019 season: With AD Andy Noel retiring in spring 2023, there was no way Noel was going to stick the new AD with a replacement football coach after fall 2022 (or after 2021 if Noel knew then he was winding down). A dismissal might also transfer Archer elsewhere in the athletic department after 20 years at Cornell including 6 as assistant and 4 as a student. Hockey (men's and women's), lacrosse and wrestling are probably Cornell's most important programs for rabid fans but even at Cornell the head football coach may be the most prominent sports hire to the world at large.

So, what would you do? What will new AD Nicki Moore do? If she's a hard charger destined to run a $100-$200-million (budget) Big Ten or similar program five years from now in her early 50s, getting the football program straightened out is crucial. And also if Moore likes upstate and spends the next 20 years in Ithaca. Either way.
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2023 12:58AM by billhoward.

 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: ugarte (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 08, 2023 11:30AM

close your /code/ tags please! (I voted!)

 
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Ken711 (---.clppva.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 08, 2023 07:08PM

That record is truly abysmal...Fire Archer. :-D
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: ugarte (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 08, 2023 07:50PM

.658 with No Coach. Could it work again?

 
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: billhoward (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 08, 2023 11:04PM

ugarte
.658 with No Coach. Could it work again?
It's how Ultimate (Frisbee) is played in college, more or less. The players pretty much run things.

And Ultimate is a sport that led to one of the best-ever intros in sportwriting:
Michael Miller, Wall Street Journal, 2018
“How did our kids wind up in this stoner sport?” my friend Aaron asked as we pulled up to a multi-field complex in Rockford, Ill., where the Preying Manti, the Flying Horsecows, the Spidermonkeys and the Vicious Circles were all warming up. A guy with rainbow-colored hair jogged by us, boomboxes blasted “Teenage Dream,” and flying discs filled the broad Midwestern sky. [www.wsj.com]
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Local Motion (192.92.157.---)
Date: November 09, 2023 11:35AM

While I agree we need a new head football coach, the overall football programs goes far beyond the coach. On the list you have some very successful coaches who have left like Jim Hofher and Jim Knowles, but departed the program frustrated with the lack of support in terms of facilities, admissions, and financial aid. As we discussed the Ivy League is a sports conference and not an academic affiliation, meaning at the very least Cornell needs to be competitive with the other seven institutions to be successful. As I mentioned before, Schoellkopf Field is not up to Ivy League standards with the ugly parking garage it's basically a "half a stadium". Buddy Teevens was dealing with the same issue when he returned to Hanover in the mid-2000's, but he was able to have the entire stadium rebuilt. We don't need that at Schoellkopf, but at the very least we need to fix the west side as it's ugly as ugly gets. In addition, you don't win football games without talent and Jim Knowles was incredibly frustrated to have recruits accepted at other Ivies or Patriot League schools who basically ran right over the Big Red whether on offense or defense.

With that being said, I have been outspoken regarding my displeasure with Martha Pollack as she could care less about Big Red athletics or basically anything not related to computer science. You can agree or disagree with me, but it's a known fact on the East Hill, Martha Pollack is a difficult leader to get along with regardless of the department you work in. She is not a visible leader and is not the type of person to listen to leaders in other departments like athletics.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: tycho (---.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 09, 2023 12:21PM

Archer generally doesn't stir the pot, and I think that's why he sticks around. He's the poster child of the administration's disinterest in football. Seems to me the bigwigs over Nicki Moore are perfectly content to keep him on.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Al DeFlorio (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: November 09, 2023 12:45PM

Local Motion
While I agree we need a new head football coach, the overall football programs goes far beyond the coach. On the list you have some very successful coaches who have left like Jim Hofher and Jim Knowles, but departed the program frustrated with the lack of support in terms of facilities, admissions, and financial aid. As we discussed the Ivy League is a sports conference and not an academic affiliation, meaning at the very least Cornell needs to be competitive with the other seven institutions to be successful. As I mentioned before, Schoellkopf Field is not up to Ivy League standards with the ugly parking garage it's basically a "half a stadium". Buddy Teevens was dealing with the same issue when he returned to Hanover in the mid-2000's, but he was able to have the entire stadium rebuilt. We don't need that at Schoellkopf, but at the very least we need to fix the west side as it's ugly as ugly gets. In addition, you don't win football games without talent and Jim Knowles was incredibly frustrated to have recruits accepted at other Ivies or Patriot League schools who basically ran right over the Big Red whether on offense or defense.

With that being said, I have been outspoken regarding my displeasure with Martha Pollack as she could care less about Big Red athletics or basically anything not related to computer science. You can agree or disagree with me, but it's a known fact on the East Hill, Martha Pollack is a difficult leader to get along with regardless of the department you work in. She is not a visible leader and is not the type of person to listen to leaders in other departments like athletics.
You continue your anti-Pollack rants but have never provided an ounce of support for your ugly assertions. You, I believe, also rant about her in the same ugly manner on Voy forums. Your unsupported rants are repetitious and tiresome.

I don't know what your personal gripe is with Pollack but it must be more than the current state of Cornell football given the tone of your rants. I've been watching Ivy football since the early 1950s and Cornell has, over the course of those 70 years, been on the whole subpar. And that predates Pollack by a lot of years. West stands were torn down and not replaced long before she came to East Hill. If Pollack has a focus on keeping Cornell's computer science and related technology programs top-notch I'm all for it. If so, she has her priorities right. So take whatever your personal gripe is with her someplace else,

 
___________________________
Al DeFlorio '65
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Local Motion (192.92.157.---)
Date: November 09, 2023 01:30PM

Al............I am only giving you the reality of the situation. Have you talked to either staff or students at Cornell regarding Martha Pollack? Have you read the Cornell Daily Sun or been back to campus? Have you ever even tried to meet Martha Pollack? I didn't just make this stuff up, there is a lot of paralysis on campus right now as we have a leader that is not very visible and it's tough for departments like athletics to get things done when you don't have support from Day Hall.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: billhoward (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 09, 2023 02:30PM

Martha Pollock like predecessor president David Skorton seem neutral on sports. Don't want to expand it, don't want to kill it. That kind of leaves the Teagle pool replacement in limbo.

Perhaps Cornell's most glorious athletics years, 1967 first NCAA hockey championship to 1970 second to 1971 first NCAA men's lax championship, IRA (rowing) title and Ed Marinaro / Cornell's first football championship in the formal Ivy League era ... they came during the Vietnam era unrest. (As there is unrest now.) The president, Dale Corson, seemed pretty neutral about sports on campus. Still, sports prospered. The basketball team even was written about in Sports Illustrated. Oops, wait, that was about Cornell's horrible record and racial unrest on the team.

(Aside: Corson seemed dry and humorless to me as an undergrad. There was actually a subtle Midwestern sense of humor there, and he was absolutely the right person to lead Cornell back to normalcy. He also, I learned years later, was a staunch foe in the fifties of McCarthy-era bullying and anti-semitism. R.I.P.)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2023 02:38PM by billhoward.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Swampy (---.datapacket.com)
Date: November 09, 2023 03:17PM

billhoward
Martha Pollock like predecessor president David Skorton seem neutral on sports. Don't want to expand it, don't want to kill it. That kind of leaves the Teagle pool replacement in limbo.

Perhaps Cornell's most glorious athletics years, 1967 first NCAA hockey championship to 1970 second to 1971 first NCAA men's lax championship, IRA (rowing) title and Ed Marinaro / Cornell's first football championship in the formal Ivy League era ... they came during the Vietnam era unrest. (As there is unrest now.) The president, Dale Corson, seemed pretty neutral about sports on campus. Still, sports prospered. The basketball team even was written about in Sports Illustrated. Oops, wait, that was about Cornell's horrible record and racial unrest on the team.

(Aside: Corson seemed dry and humorless to me as an undergrad. There was actually a subtle Midwestern sense of humor there, and he was absolutely the right person to lead Cornell back to normalcy. He also, I learned years later, was a staunch foe in the fifties of McCarthy-era bullying and anti-semitism. R.I.P.)

SI also wrote about the hockey team. IIRC, it was on the cover.

Regarding Corson, as we get older and suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, the Good becomes less of an enemy to the Perfect. Maybe someday we'll look back at the Pollock years this way.

Put this another way: if CU athletics were really and inherently in the trash, we wouldn't have the highly ranked teams we do have: hockey, lacrosse, rowing, wrestling, etc.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: rss77 (---.stny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 10, 2023 10:18AM

As an undegrad in the late 70s I think you have it wrong about Corson. He would attend Cornell road football games and other Cornell sporting events. Going back to the Ben Bluitt days coaching basketball-Bluitt would hold post game gatherings open to the public and I rembember Corson being at some of those sessions. Getting back to the conditions Seifert dealt would suggest that one read the late Robert Kane's book about Cornell athletics.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: George64 (---.rochester.res.rr.com)
Date: November 10, 2023 12:25PM

rss77
As an undegrad in the late 70s I think you have it wrong about Corson. He would attend Cornell road football games and other Cornell sporting events. Going back to the Ben Bluitt days coaching basketball-Bluitt would hold post game gatherings open to the public and I rembember Corson being at some of those sessions. Getting back to the conditions Seifert dealt would suggest that one read the late Robert Kane's book about Cornell athletics.

I’ve always believed that Seifert was fired because Bob Blackman became available. Blackman’s record at Dartmouth: 104-37-3 (73.2 percent), at Cornell: 23-33-1 (49.2 percent).
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: nyc94 (32.215.192.---)
Date: November 11, 2023 02:20PM

Surprised that as bad as Archer's record is Cornell has never finished in 8th place - alone, untied, dead last - during his tenure.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: mike1960 (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: November 11, 2023 02:23PM

nyc94
Surprised that as bad as Archer's record is Cornell has never finished in 8th place - alone, untied, dead last - during his tenure.

Maybe that fact will figure in the season opening press release next year.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Ken711 (---.clppva.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 11, 2023 02:25PM

nyc94
Surprised that as bad as Archer's record is Cornell has never finished in 8th place - alone, untied, dead last - during his tenure.

And that's apparently all it takes to keep a his job with coaching record going on 10 straight losing seasons. Hopefully, the new AD finally cuts ties with Archer after this season is over.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: nyc94 (32.215.192.---)
Date: November 11, 2023 02:45PM

mike1960
nyc94
Surprised that as bad as Archer's record is Cornell has never finished in 8th place - alone, untied, dead last - during his tenure.

Maybe that fact will figure in the season opening press release next year.

Like the year a three-way tie for 6th place (last place) exceeded expectations of the preseason poll of 7th.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: mike1960 (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: November 11, 2023 02:57PM

nyc94
mike1960
nyc94
Surprised that as bad as Archer's record is Cornell has never finished in 8th place - alone, untied, dead last - during his tenure.

Maybe that fact will figure in the season opening press release next year.

Like the year a three-way tie for 6th place (last place) exceeded expectations of the preseason poll of 7th.
]

Exactly.

But touchdown!! Nice red zone call.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: George64 (---.rochester.res.rr.com)
Date: November 11, 2023 04:30PM

Cornell football, under David Archer, is now assured of yet another losing season even if we beat Columbia (by no means a given). Archer should now do the right thing and resign. In PR-speak “to pursue other career options.”
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: jmeaneyjr (---.hsd1.ct.comcast.net)
Date: November 11, 2023 04:45PM

Archer has to go. Hopefully he has the self awareness to walk into the AD's office in November 20 and resign.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: jmeaneyjr (---.hsd1.ct.comcast.net)
Date: November 11, 2023 05:59PM

I can assure you that is was more complicated than that. In fact, I never heard about Blackman being available as a precipitating factor. Their were alumni from the early 50s that had issues with Seifert's personnel decisions. In other words, it reeked of politics. Whatever - we are now talking about a pressing issue 47 years later.

Simply put, it should be "bye, bye" Archer. Hopefully, he recognizes that and exits stage door left...
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Ken711 (---.clppva.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 11, 2023 06:13PM

George64
Cornell football, under David Archer, is now assured of yet another losing season even if we beat Columbia (by no means a given). Archer should now do the right thing and resign. In PR-speak “to pursue other career options.”

Exactly. Promote him to an "administrative position" if they don't want to fire him and he won't resign. But 10 straight years of losing seasons is enough!!!!
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: jmeaneyjr (---.hsd1.ct.comcast.net)
Date: November 11, 2023 07:06PM

Well - way past "enough", but he just should leave...
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: CAS (104.28.57.---)
Date: November 12, 2023 09:40AM

Maybe Jimbo Fisher would like to turn around the Cornell program? Texas A&M is rumored to be paying off the $76MM he’s owed under his contract. He won’t be needing the money to resurrect Big Red football. Hey Nicki Moore was an associate AD at Oklahoma & UNC. She knows big-time football…
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2023 09:44AM by CAS.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: ugarte (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 12, 2023 11:20AM

CAS
Maybe Jimbo Fisher would like to turn around the Cornell program? Texas A&M is rumored to be paying off the $76MM he’s owed under his contract. He won’t be needing the money to resurrect Big Red football. Hey Nicki Moore was an associate AD at Oklahoma & UNC. She knows big-time football…
he would plotz at the scouting budget. he'd have to go into his pockets like a teacher in an urban school district paying for supplies.

 
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Local Motion (8.9.84.---)
Date: November 12, 2023 01:23PM

As I have stated before.............regardless of the coach we hire changes need to be made with the Big Red football team from the stadium to the issues with admissions and financial aid. Otherwise the new coach will last three years and we are right back to where we started.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: rss77 (---.stny.res.rr.com)
Date: November 12, 2023 02:16PM

Agreed need support from Day Hall for program to move forward. BTW watching replay last the Red looked as flat as pancakes.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: George64 (---.rochester.res.rr.com)
Date: November 12, 2023 02:52PM

Local Motion
As I have stated before.............regardless of the coach we hire changes need to be made with the Big Red football team from the stadium to the issues with admissions and financial aid. Otherwise the new coach will last three years and we are right back to where we started.

Are you suggesting that we become the 15th member of the Big 10? It’s my understanding that Ivy League schools don’t award merit or athletic scholarships, but do match each other’s financial aid packages. Athletes often snag lucrative summer jobs and paid internships.

I, and probably most students and alumni, value the Ivy League brand more than winning football games, although the two are not mutually exclusive. Even without athletic “scholarships,” we’ve done consistently well in men’s and women’s hockey, lacrosse, wrestling, etc. Arguably, it is harder to do in football with a roster of 116.

As for admissions, we offer more potential majors than any other Ivy. I take pride in that many of our athletes become doctors, professors, CEOs, and even lawyers and investment bankers.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Al DeFlorio (---.nys.biz.rr.com)
Date: November 12, 2023 03:30PM

George64
Local Motion
As I have stated before.............regardless of the coach we hire changes need to be made with the Big Red football team from the stadium to the issues with admissions and financial aid. Otherwise the new coach will last three years and we are right back to where we started.

Are you suggesting that we become the 15th member of the Big 10? It’s my understanding that Ivy League schools don’t award merit or athletic scholarships, but do match each other’s financial aid packages. Athletes often snag lucrative summer jobs and paid internships.

I, and probably most students and alumni, value the Ivy League brand more than winning football games, although the two are not mutually exclusive. Even without athletic “scholarships,” we’ve done consistently well in men’s and women’s hockey, lacrosse, wrestling, etc. Arguably, it is harder to do in football with a roster of 116.

As for admissions, we offer more potential majors than any other Ivy. I take pride in that many of our athletes become doctors, professors, CEOs, and even lawyers and investment bankers.
I'm with you, George. Had an exchange of letters with Bob Blackman during his Cornell tenure. His complaint with admissions was having to deal with separate admissions offices for each undergraduate school. Also said afternoon labs from 2 to 4:30 interfered with practices. Other issues mentioned, too, but I'm too old to remember.

 
___________________________
Al DeFlorio '65
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: CAS (104.28.55.---)
Date: November 12, 2023 03:55PM

We are nationally competitive in lax, hockey, wrestling, and certain other sports. There is no good reason why we can’t compete in the Ivies in football. All teams at Cornell share the same admissions financial aid, student academic requirements, senior administration, etc. The coaching staffs are different though…
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Ken711 (---.clppva.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 12, 2023 05:03PM

CAS
We are nationally competitive in lax, hockey, wrestling, and certain other sports. There is no good reason why we can’t compete in the Ivies in football. All teams at Cornell share the same admissions financial aid, student academic requirements, senior administration, etc. The coaching staffs are different though…

Very true. To go through the process of finding the right head coaching search takes time and work that Andy had no interest in doing. Let's hope Nikki Moore does. There is no justification keeping a head coach in ANY sport at Cornell that produces 10 straight losing seasons....none...nada.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Local Motion (8.9.84.---)
Date: November 12, 2023 08:09PM

Well Jim Knowles who is currently the #1 defensive coordinator in all of college football, best season at Cornell was 6-4 in 2005 and he should have won multiple Ivy titles for the Big Red. When are we going to learn??? Without support from Day Hall, we could hire Nick Saban and even he would probably struggle on the East Hill. The other sports are irrelevant as football is a different than other Ivy sports. While the Harvard vs. Yale game next Saturday will draw 50K give or take, Cornell will be lucky if the ushers show up for the Columbia game on Saturday. The Cornell admin constantly complains they don't have money for athletics and then Harvard vs. Yale charges $100 per ticket. Is it any wonder why Harvard and Yale have such a huge endowment? Cornell can do better. Go Big Red!!!
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: CAS (104.28.55.---)
Date: November 12, 2023 09:05PM

Why are the other sports irrelevant? Lax plays in the same stadium as football. Lax is relevant nationally, not just in the Ivies. Lax played for the NCAA championship just two years ago. Does Day Hall bestow special gifts to lax? Do they care about lax & not football? I believe football (& Schoellkopf) should get more funding, but coaching is the most important determinant of program success.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2023 09:06PM by CAS.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Weder (---.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
Date: November 12, 2023 09:38PM

There are some $100 tickets for the Yale-Harvard game, just like there are some $100+ tickets when the Cornell hockey team plays at MSG. There are also lots of cheaper tickets for the Y-H game, and they also give one free ticket to every Yale student and employee.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Ken711 (---.clppva.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 12, 2023 09:49PM

CAS
Why are the other sports irrelevant? Lax plays in the same stadium as football. Lax is relevant nationally, not just in the Ivies. Lax played for the NCAA championship just two years ago. Does Day Hall bestow special gifts to lax? Do they care about lax & not football? I believe football (& Schoellkopf) should get more funding, but coaching is the most important determinant of program success.


X's and O's besides the jimmy's and joes is just as very important. Archer was a very poor choice to begin with. When does a head coach get hired with no prior experience as even a coordinator? Andy felt he'd learn on the job I suppose? In any case, after 5 years, the writing was on the wall that this coaching experiment was a complete failure. The fact that Archer was given another 5 years, and has failed yet again to achieve a winning season is just mind blowing.

Archer should, but I doubt he would, resign on his own. He needs to be a dismissed after next week's game and a national search for a qualified coach from a winning background has to be hired and given all the resources he needs to succeed.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: BearLover (---.sub-174-216-246.myvzw.com)
Date: November 12, 2023 11:58PM

Some of the stuff in this thread is crazy. People aren’t paying $100 to attend Harvard-Yale except maybe some crazy rich people who want to pay for some sort of VIP package. It needs to be stated that almost no one attends games at even the successful Ivy programs—they have very few fans in general and the students don’t care at all.

Yeah the president of Cornell doesn’t care about athletics, but where’s the evidence any of the other Ivy presidents care? I highly doubt success of the athletics program cracks any Ivy president’s top 5 things at their university worth caring about.

Archer has been terrible, but Cornell football‘s lack of success long predates him. I personally believe that even if someone were to replace Archer and somehow find success, that person would jump ship to a better program the moment they were offered. For all the aforementioned reasons, I would say that, yeah, the administration doesn’t care about Cornell football (and certainly not enough to pump more resources into the program), but they aren’t unique in that respect, and frankly there aren’t many reasons they SHOULD care.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2023 12:00AM by BearLover.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Swampy (---.ri.ri.cox.net)
Date: November 13, 2023 12:13AM

BearLover
Some of the stuff in this thread is crazy. People aren’t paying $100 to attend Harvard-Yale except maybe some crazy rich people who want to pay for some sort of VIP package. It needs to be stated that almost no one attends games at even the successful Ivy programs—they have very few fans in general and the students don’t care at all.

Yeah the president of Cornell doesn’t care about athletics, but where’s the evidence any of the other Ivy presidents care? I highly doubt success of the athletics program cracks any Ivy president’s top 5 things at their university worth caring about.

Archer has been terrible, but Cornell football‘s lack of success long predates him. I personally believe that even if someone were to replace Archer and somehow find success, that person would jump ship to a better program the moment they were offered. For all the aforementioned reasons, I would say that, yeah, the administration doesn’t care about Cornell football (and certainly not enough to pump more resources into the program), but they aren’t unique in that respect, and frankly there aren’t many reasons they SHOULD care.

Well, there's an old saying: "A successful university president provides sex for the students, parking for the faculty, and winning football for the alumni."
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Trotsky (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 13, 2023 01:04AM

Al DeFlorio
His complaint with admissions was having to deal with separate admissions offices for each undergraduate school.

Let's change the basic structure of the university to accommodate sportsball.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: cth95 (---.sub-174-197-203.myvzw.com)
Date: November 13, 2023 01:05AM

BearLover
It needs to be stated that almost no one attends games at even the successful Ivy programs—they have very few fans in general and the students don’t care at all.

I don't watch a lot of Ivy or even any college football in general, but I happened to watch Yale at Princeton while flipping through the channels yesterday. If the stadium was 1/3 full, I would be surprised. Apparently we are not the only ones with an attendance problem.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: ugarte (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 13, 2023 02:15AM

Local Motion
... Jim Knowles was incredibly frustrated to have recruits accepted at other Ivies or Patriot League schools who basically ran right over the Big Red whether on offense or defense.
Knowles left to take a DC position at a power conference school (even though it was Duke). He helped Cutcliffe turn the Duke program around and has since moved on to better (Oklahoma State) and better (Ohio State) programs as DC. At the risk of being rude, it appears he was too good to be coaching at Cornell.

 
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: George64 (---.rochester.res.rr.com)
Date: November 13, 2023 08:08AM

Trotsky
Al DeFlorio
His complaint with admissions was having to deal with separate admissions offices for each undergraduate school.

Let's change the basic structure of the university to accommodate sportsball.

In the ‘60s, when checking out graduate schools, I looked through The OSU course catalogue. There was a course, titled something like Fundamentals of Football, taught by Professor Woodrow Hayes, open by permission of the instructor. No joke.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: dbilmes (64.224.255.---)
Date: November 13, 2023 09:17AM

Back in the 1970s, I was taking an Advertising course in what was then called the Communication Arts Department. For my final project, I created an advertising campaign to increase attendance at Ivy League football games. Low attendance at games was a fact back then and that hasn't changed over the ensuing decades.
Having lived in Connecticut now for over 40 years, Yale used to get larger crowds for home games back when there was no cable TV and people read daily newspapers, most of whom had sportswriters covering Yale games in person, as well as covering the mid-week luncheons with the coach. That train has long left the station.
Most students going to Ivy League schools aren't sports-obsessed. If they were, they wouldn't go to an Ivy school. I know excellent students from Connecticut who went to schools like Alabama because they wanted a big-time sports atmosphere. That means most Ivy teams have to rely on the townies to increase attendance, and there isn't a single Ivy school which is located in a place which can be considered a hotbed of college football.
As for Archer, I wonder if the football alums with big pockets have put pressure on the AD to change the coaching staff. Or if those alums are satisfied with the status quo.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: nshapiro (---.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 13, 2023 09:25AM

George64
Trotsky
Al DeFlorio
His complaint with admissions was having to deal with separate admissions offices for each undergraduate school.

Let's change the basic structure of the university to accommodate sportsball.

In the ‘60s, when checking out graduate schools, I looked through The OSU course catalogue. There was a course, titled something like Fundamentals of Football, taught by Professor Woodrow Hayes, open by permission of the instructor. No joke.
That course is probably gone now, but the educational challenges for Ohio State football players are still minimal. My son is a grad student there, and every time a course he teaches (yes, teaches, not TAs) has a football player enrolled, there are also 4 or 5 extra students who audit the course. I don't know if this is standard for big time football schools, but it happens today at OSU.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: nshapiro (---.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 13, 2023 09:25AM

George64
Trotsky
Al DeFlorio
His complaint with admissions was having to deal with separate admissions offices for each undergraduate school.

Let's change the basic structure of the university to accommodate sportsball.

In the ‘60s, when checking out graduate schools, I looked through The OSU course catalogue. There was a course, titled something like Fundamentals of Football, taught by Professor Woodrow Hayes, open by permission of the instructor. No joke.
That course is probably gone now, but the educational challenges for Ohio State football players are still minimal. My son is a grad student there, and every time a course he teaches (yes, teaches, not TAs) has a football player enrolled, there are also 4 or 5 extra students who audit the course. I don't know if this is standard for big time football schools, but it happens today at OSU.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: George64 (---.rochester.res.rr.com)
Date: November 13, 2023 10:14AM

nshapiro
George64
Trotsky
Al DeFlorio
His complaint with admissions was having to deal with separate admissions offices for each undergraduate school.

Let's change the basic structure of the university to accommodate sportsball.

In the ‘60s, when checking out graduate schools, I looked through The OSU course catalogue. There was a course, titled something like Fundamentals of Football, taught by Professor Woodrow Hayes, open by permission of the instructor. No joke.
That course is probably gone now, but the educational challenges for Ohio State football players are still minimal. My son is a grad student there, and every time a course he teaches (yes, teaches, not TAs) has a football player enrolled, there are also 4 or 5 extra students who audit the course. I don't know if this is standard for big time football schools, but it happens today at OSU.

I undoubtedly have too much time on my hands, so here’s some sports trivia courtesy of Wikipedia. “When Hayes was first hired to be the head coach at Ohio State, he was also made a "full professor of physical education", having earned an M.A. degree in educational administration from Ohio State in 1948. The classes he taught were usually full, and he was called "Professor Hayes" by students. Hayes also taught mandatory English and vocabulary classes to his freshman football players. One of his students was a basketball player named Bobby Knight, who later became a legendary basketball coach.”

Controversial and unethical basketball coach, David Bliss ‘65, MBA ‘67, was a protege of Bobby Knight, so four degrees of separation: fired football coach Woody Hayes > fired coach Bobby Knight > fired coach Dave Bliss > Cornell athletics > David Archer.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2023 10:41AM by George64.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Local Motion (192.92.157.---)
Date: November 13, 2023 11:21AM

This is exactly why the lack of interest in athletics by the Cornell administration makes me so frustrated. The Ivy League is a sports conference and not an academic affiliation. The entire purpose of the Ivy League is to play high level athletics coupled with high level academics. I know as a former student-athlete I worked my A...... off at Cornell both in the classroom and at practice. It was incredibly challenging and I often thought about quitting my sport, primarily my freshman and sophomore years because I was barely seeing the field come game day. That sucked but welcome to college athletics. It was much better my junior/senior years and was happy to graduate with both my degree and varsity letter. For example, if you look at Wall Street, many of the bond traders, investment bankers, and other professions in the Big Apple are former Ivy League athletes because they were both strong academically and have good people & teamwork skills to succeed in a high paced environment. We had a family member who had major heart surgery a few years back and the surgeon had played football at Harvard and attended med school at Cornell. That is the difference between the Ivy League and the Big Ten which should be celebrated, not downgraded. Go Big Red!
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Ken711 (---.clppva.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 13, 2023 12:39PM

If the athletic administration retains a coach with a career to date record winning Ivy League of games won at .275 (29-50) over the past 10 years, regardless if they win the final game of the year, that illustrates a total lack of interest more than anything. It would be somewhat defensible if Archer was building toward a winning season 5-6 years ago that's one thing, but with the consistency of losing season after season over such a long period, it's indefensible in keeping Archer around for an 11th year. One would hope, if he bleeds Cornell red, he steps aside on his own, otherwise Nicki Moore needs to dismiss him.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2023 12:39PM by Ken711.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Trotsky (12.151.182.---)
Date: November 13, 2023 12:43PM

Local Motion
For example, if you look at Wall Street, many of the bond traders, investment bankers, and other professions in the Big Apple are former Ivy League athletes because they both came from money and are the type of sociopath that thrives in those environments.

Fixed your post.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Weder (136.226.53.---)
Date: November 13, 2023 12:53PM

Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Trotsky (12.151.182.---)
Date: November 13, 2023 01:22PM

Is that an affiliation of the nation's sleaziest federal grant welfare queens?

Edit: Can't be; Stanford isn't there.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: billhoward (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 13, 2023 04:50PM

Swampy
Well, there's an old saying: "A successful university president provides sex for the students, parking for the faculty, and winning football for the alumni."
Clark Kerr, chancellor, University of California, also president, Berkeley. Write that on your hand. If I said that, I'd want it on my tombstone. Better than Beloved by All or I Told You I Was Sick.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: jmeaneyjr (---.hsd1.ct.comcast.net)
Date: November 13, 2023 09:24PM

I am hopeful that he resigns. I agree that he has to accept the fact that he is not the right guy.
That's what I was alluding to when I mentioned self awareness in a previous post. We'll see if he gets it...
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: abmarks (---.hsd1.vt.comcast.net)
Date: November 14, 2023 04:15AM

Trotsky
Is that an affiliation of the nation's sleaziest federal grant welfare queens?

Edit: Can't be; Stanford isn't there.

Stanford is there. Right after Columbia on the list.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Trotsky (12.151.182.---)
Date: November 14, 2023 02:05PM

abmarks
Trotsky
Is that an affiliation of the nation's sleaziest federal grant welfare queens?

Edit: Can't be; Stanford isn't there.

Stanford is there. Right after Columbia on the list.
Ah. Was looking for the tree.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: George64 (---.rochester.res.rr.com)
Date: November 18, 2023 04:41PM

George64
Cornell football, under David Archer, is now assured of yet another losing season even if we beat Columbia (by no means a given). Archer should now do the right thing and resign. In PR-speak “to pursue other career options.”

Like I said, “by no means a given.” Archer needs to pursue other career options.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Ken711 (---.clppva.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 18, 2023 06:07PM

George64
George64
Cornell football, under David Archer, is now assured of yet another losing season even if we beat Columbia (by no means a given). Archer should now do the right thing and resign. In PR-speak “to pursue other career options.”

Like I said, “by no means a given.” Archer needs to pursue other career options.

Without a doubt
 
Re: Cornell football coach - 10-years, .290
Posted by: billhoward (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 19, 2023 02:09PM

Cornell finishes the 2023 football season in seventh place, with a 2-5 record thanks to wins over tied-for-title Yale) and tied-for-fifth Brown. After the first two games, the remaining record was one win and seven losses including the last four games.

2023 Ivy League Football Standings
SCHOOL	   CONF CPCT.	OVERALL	PCT.	STREAK
Harvard	   5-2	.714	8-2	.800	L1
Yale	   5-2	.714	7-3	.700	W4
Dartmouth  5-2	.714	6-4	.600	W3
Princeton  4-3	.571	5-5	.500	W1
Penn	   3-4	.429	6-4	.600	L2
Brown	   3-4	.429	5-5	.500	L1
Cornell	   2-5	.286	3-7	.300	L4
Columbia   1-6	.143	3-7	.300	W1
Cornell Ivy margins of victory:
+2, +22
-18, -11, -15, -16, -15


After 10 years of competition, Cornell has won 29% of all games, 27% of Ivy games. One .500 season, 2022. The best one-year improvements, when Cornell was +3 on wins year over year, were 2016 and 2022.
Year	W	L	Ivy     Ivy Finish
2013 	3       7       2-5       7th
2014	1	9	1-6	  7th	
2015	1	9	1-6	t-7th	
2016	4	6	2-5	t-6th	
2017	3	7	3-4	t-5th	
2018	3	7	2-5	  7th	
2019	4	6	3-4	t-4th
2020    Covid, no competition                 	
2021	2	8	1-6	t-6th	
2022	5	5	2-5	t-6th	
2023    3       7       2-5       7th
Totals  29      71      19-51     
Win %          .290    .271  
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: billhoward (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 19, 2023 02:47PM

With the season ended, the most likely outcome is for David Archer to step down as head football coach or be removed. Given his two-decade career with Cornell (including as a player), he might find a second life in athletics or Cornell administration.

The decision will be easier – less hard – to make this year:
* Cornell football lost 3 more games than the best-under-Archer .500 of 2022
* There's a newer, younger athletics director (read: could be building a record at Cornell for a higher position in 5 years, or could be here into the 2040s because Cornell is not a low-level AD's job), one who did not make the hire
* Ten seasons (11 years including the Covid bye year) is a round number, time to take stock
* The last time it made clear sense to move on was 2018, the second straight 3-7 season and an Ivy record that fell from 3-4 to 2-5. 2019, Cornell had its best ever Archer-era Ivy season (tie for fourth on a 3-4 record). 2020 was the Covid year, not going to make a move then. 2021 was the worst record, 2-8, since 2015, but maybe Noel knew then he was leaving in a year and wanted (rightly) to let the new AD make the hire. 2022 was Archer's best season if only a 2-5 Ivy record.

If it happens, it should happen quickly. It gives the assistants a better chance to find new jobs. And for Archer to find a new role outside Cornell, although his leadership abilities and his years here make him equally suited for a job in athletics or Cornell-elsewhere.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: kingpin248 (---.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
Date: November 19, 2023 06:02PM

billhoward
With the season ended, the most likely outcome is for David Archer to step down as head football coach or be removed. Given his two-decade career with Cornell (including as a player), he might find a second life in athletics or Cornell administration.

The decision will be easier – less hard – to make this year:
* Cornell football lost 3 more games than the best-under-Archer .500 of 2022
* There's a newer, younger athletics director (read: could be building a record at Cornell for a higher position in 5 years, or could be here into the 2040s because Cornell is not a low-level AD's job), one who did not make the hire
* Ten seasons (11 years including the Covid bye year) is a round number, time to take stock
* The last time it made clear sense to move on was 2018, the second straight 3-7 season and an Ivy record that fell from 3-4 to 2-5. 2019, Cornell had its best ever Archer-era Ivy season (tie for fourth on a 3-4 record). 2020 was the Covid year, not going to make a move then. 2021 was the worst record, 2-8, since 2015, but maybe Noel knew then he was leaving in a year and wanted (rightly) to let the new AD make the hire. 2022 was Archer's best season if only a 2-5 Ivy record.

If it happens, it should happen quickly. It gives the assistants a better chance to find new jobs. And for Archer to find a new role outside Cornell, although his leadership abilities and his years here make him equally suited for a job in athletics or Cornell-elsewhere.
It has happened quickly; official announcement: Cornell Announces Change in Football Leadership

 
___________________________
Matt Carberry
my blog | The Z-Ratings (KRACH for other sports)
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: RichH (104.28.76.---)
Date: November 19, 2023 07:01PM

kingpin248
billhoward
With the season ended, the most likely outcome is for David Archer to step down as head football coach or be removed. Given his two-decade career with Cornell (including as a player), he might find a second life in athletics or Cornell administration.

The decision will be easier – less hard – to make this year:
* Cornell football lost 3 more games than the best-under-Archer .500 of 2022
* There's a newer, younger athletics director (read: could be building a record at Cornell for a higher position in 5 years, or could be here into the 2040s because Cornell is not a low-level AD's job), one who did not make the hire
* Ten seasons (11 years including the Covid bye year) is a round number, time to take stock
* The last time it made clear sense to move on was 2018, the second straight 3-7 season and an Ivy record that fell from 3-4 to 2-5. 2019, Cornell had its best ever Archer-era Ivy season (tie for fourth on a 3-4 record). 2020 was the Covid year, not going to make a move then. 2021 was the worst record, 2-8, since 2015, but maybe Noel knew then he was leaving in a year and wanted (rightly) to let the new AD make the hire. 2022 was Archer's best season if only a 2-5 Ivy record.

If it happens, it should happen quickly. It gives the assistants a better chance to find new jobs. And for Archer to find a new role outside Cornell, although his leadership abilities and his years here make him equally suited for a job in athletics or Cornell-elsewhere.
It has happened quickly; official announcement: Cornell Announces Change in Football Leadership

Someone please check on Ken711. I fear the excitement may have caused him to pass out.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Ken711 (---.clppva.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 19, 2023 07:25PM

RichH
kingpin248
billhoward
With the season ended, the most likely outcome is for David Archer to step down as head football coach or be removed. Given his two-decade career with Cornell (including as a player), he might find a second life in athletics or Cornell administration.

The decision will be easier – less hard – to make this year:
* Cornell football lost 3 more games than the best-under-Archer .500 of 2022
* There's a newer, younger athletics director (read: could be building a record at Cornell for a higher position in 5 years, or could be here into the 2040s because Cornell is not a low-level AD's job), one who did not make the hire
* Ten seasons (11 years including the Covid bye year) is a round number, time to take stock
* The last time it made clear sense to move on was 2018, the second straight 3-7 season and an Ivy record that fell from 3-4 to 2-5. 2019, Cornell had its best ever Archer-era Ivy season (tie for fourth on a 3-4 record). 2020 was the Covid year, not going to make a move then. 2021 was the worst record, 2-8, since 2015, but maybe Noel knew then he was leaving in a year and wanted (rightly) to let the new AD make the hire. 2022 was Archer's best season if only a 2-5 Ivy record.

If it happens, it should happen quickly. It gives the assistants a better chance to find new jobs. And for Archer to find a new role outside Cornell, although his leadership abilities and his years here make him equally suited for a job in athletics or Cornell-elsewhere.
It has happened quickly; official announcement: Cornell Announces Change in Football Leadership

Someone please check on Ken711. I fear the excitement may have caused him to pass out.

banana It's time for a celebration, :-D
 
Re: Cornell football coach - 10-years, .290
Posted by: Trotsky (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 19, 2023 07:56PM

I'd like to think he was offered a position with the university. He couldn't cut it as the HC but as someone said above he bleeds Carnellian and white, and that's worth something to me.
 
Re: Cornell football coach - 10-years, .290
Posted by: mike1960 (185.255.130.---)
Date: November 19, 2023 08:00PM

Trotsky
I'd like to think he was offered a position with the university. He couldn't cut it as the HC but as someone said above he bleeds Carnellian and white, and that's worth something to me.

+1
 
Re: Cornell football coach - 10-years, .290
Posted by: tycho (---.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 19, 2023 08:01PM

Trotsky
I'd like to think he was offered a position with the university. He couldn't cut it as the HC but as someone said above he bleeds Carnellian and white, and that's worth something to me.

+2. Time for a change, but no personal vendetta from me. Best to him and his folks.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2023 08:04PM by tycho.
 
Re: Cornell football coach - 10-years, .290
Posted by: RichH (104.28.76.---)
Date: November 19, 2023 08:27PM

tycho
Trotsky
I'd like to think he was offered a position with the university. He couldn't cut it as the HC but as someone said above he bleeds Carnellian and white, and that's worth something to me.

+2. Time for a change, but no personal vendetta from me. Best to him and his folks.

And I thought the tone of the official announcement was spot on in acknowledging and respecting that. Well done.
 
Re: Cornell football coach - 10-years, .290
Posted by: kingpin248 (---.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
Date: November 19, 2023 09:05PM

RichH
tycho
Trotsky
I'd like to think he was offered a position with the university. He couldn't cut it as the HC but as someone said above he bleeds Carnellian and white, and that's worth something to me.

+2. Time for a change, but no personal vendetta from me. Best to him and his folks.

And I thought the tone of the official announcement was spot on in acknowledging and respecting that. Well done.

In his personal capacity, Cornell SID Jeremy Hartigan (who I presume wrote the statement): "David Archer has always been a terrific leader of young men, and maybe no one in my lifetime has committed more energy into trying to get Cornell football to win. The positive impact he’s had on Big Red student-athletes and the department is immeasurable. I only hope my two kids find a role model like him in a coach at some point in their lives. They’ll be better for it."

 
___________________________
Matt Carberry
my blog | The Z-Ratings (KRACH for other sports)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2023 09:06PM by kingpin248.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: David Harding (---.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
Date: November 19, 2023 11:54PM

The Cornell Sun story [cornellsun.com]
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: jmeaneyjr (---.sub-174-192-4.myvzw.com)
Date: November 20, 2023 11:22AM

This is a necessary and positive development. Let's see where the Cornell hierarchy takes us. I believe AD Moore is up to the task.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: billhoward (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 20, 2023 12:14PM

jmeaneyjr
This is a necessary and positive development. Let's see where the Cornell hierarchy takes us. I believe AD Moore is up to the task.
<heh> I read that as Andrew Dickson Moore.
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: ugarte (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: December 07, 2023 11:08AM

It's Swanstrom



 
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: Trotsky (12.151.182.---)
Date: December 07, 2023 12:58PM

That's kind of neat. cheer

Good luck to him. I don't know if it is possible to build a competitive football team at Cornell because of systemic issues, but I wish him well. LGR!
 
Re: Cornell football coach
Posted by: ugarte (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: December 07, 2023 01:10PM

Man, three Liberty League co-championiships in four years and every time the other school went to the DIII playoffs. Not going to the playoffs is good experience for coaching in the Ivy League.

 
 

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