Ivies sued over lack of athletic scholarships

Associated Press
A pair of basketball players from Brown allege in a federal lawsuit that the Ivy League’s policy of not offering athletic scholarships amounts to a price-fixing agreement that denies athletes proper financial aid and payment for their services.

Weder

Associated Press
A pair of basketball players from Brown allege in a federal lawsuit that the Ivy League’s policy of not offering athletic scholarships amounts to a price-fixing agreement that denies athletes proper financial aid and payment for their services.

[apnews.com]

scoop85

Weder

Associated Press
A pair of basketball players from Brown allege in a federal lawsuit that the Ivy League’s policy of not offering athletic scholarships amounts to a price-fixing agreement that denies athletes proper financial aid and payment for their services.

[apnews.com]

Yeah, I just don't think this is going to fly. There are hundreds of schools--including some with excellent academic chops--that offer athletic scholarships, so kids coming to the Ivies know what they're getting into right off the bat. This feels different to me than the situation where the Ivies could only offer identical financial aid packages, which was found to be illegal price fixing.

upprdeck
so its illegal for ivies to offer the same financial aid to kids but not illegal to pay the same wages?

Cop at Lynah
[www.espn.com]

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/35812605/athletes-sue-ivy-league-no-scholarship-policy
Harvard, Yale, Brown, Princeton, Dartmouth, Cornell, Columbia and Penn don't offer merit scholarships of any kind, including athletic scholarships. The policy, which dates back to 1954 ...

Swampy

Cop at Lynah
[www.espn.com]

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/35812605/athletes-sue-ivy-league-no-scholarship-policy
Harvard, Yale, Brown, Princeton, Dartmouth, Cornell, Columbia and Penn don't offer merit scholarships of any kind, including athletic scholarships. The policy, which dates back to 1954 ...

This is technically true but substantively untrue. When I attended Cornell in the 1960s, NY state offered Regents scholarships based on a combination of merit and need. Technically it was the state, and not Cornell, offering these pots of money. But A. D .White was responsible for this. When NY established its land grant college, he created a special category of Regents scholarship awarded only to the persons with the highest scores on the Regents Exams in each congressional district. So, in effect White, who chaired the committee in the NY legislature, established a state-funded merit scholarship at Cornell.

abmarks

scoop85

Weder

Associated Press
A pair of basketball players from Brown allege in a federal lawsuit that the Ivy League’s policy of not offering athletic scholarships amounts to a price-fixing agreement that denies athletes proper financial aid and payment for their services.

[apnews.com]

Yeah, I just don't think this is going to fly. There are hundreds of schools--including some with excellent academic chops--that offer athletic scholarships, so kids coming to the Ivies know what they're getting into right off the bat. This feels different to me than the situation where the Ivies could only offer identical financial aid packages, which was found to be illegal price fixing.

Actually, it's the same thing as the aid packages. It's a group of schools agreeing to price fixing - and price fixing isn't legal.

It's not that the schools don't offer scholarships. Its that they have agreed together to not award scholarships, collusively keeping the cost of attendance artificially high for athletes.


If there was no league level agreement to ban scholarships (and no tacit agreement between the schools either) and each of the schools independently decided to not award scholarships, that's a different story.

Also, kids applying to ivy league schools also know the deal with financial aid going in, but that doesn't make the price fixing on aid legal either.

Cop at Lynah
[www.espn.com]

George64

Cop at Lynah
[www.espn.com]

The attorneys for the Brown athletes point out that other elite academic schools, such as Stanford and Duke, do offer athletic scholarships and “The natural, foreseeable, and intended result of the Ivy League Agreement is that Ivy League athletes have paid more for their education and earned less in compensation or reimbursement than they would have in the absence of the agreement.”

This is arguably true, but no one forced these scholar-athletes to go Ivy. As far as I know, athletes pay no more than other Ivy students with similar financial need. Plus, Ivy athletes typically get very good summer jobs, although local auto dealerships are unlikely to pay as much for an athlete’s NIL, as might some wealthy alum at an athletic powerhouse.
.

Beeeej

George64

Cop at Lynah
[www.espn.com]

The attorneys for the Brown athletes point out that other elite academic schools, such as Stanford and Duke, do offer athletic scholarships and “The natural, foreseeable, and intended result of the Ivy League Agreement is that Ivy League athletes have paid more for their education and earned less in compensation or reimbursement than they would have in the absence of the agreement.”

This is arguably true, but no one forced these scholar-athletes to go Ivy. As far as I know, athletes pay no more than other Ivy students with similar financial need. Plus, Ivy athletes typically get very good summer jobs, although local auto dealerships are unlikely to pay as much for an athlete’s NIL, as might some wealthy alum at an athletic powerhouse.
.

The problem with that argument is that someone who plays varsity anything for Brown would most likely ride the bench or dress for the practice squad (or not make the team at all) at any "athletic powerhouse." These athletes weren't getting any NIL money regardless. They chose Brown because of the reasons people usually choose Brown, and they've had their demonstrated financial need met.

ugarte
the problem with the suit is that it presumes a likelihood of giving athletic scholarships in a non-collusive environemnt, as if it were the only conference to do so but neither the patriot nor all of D-III give athletic scholarships either, both by a rule agreed to and imposed by a higher body. i don't think it flies in a post-NIL world. the NLRB's ruling that student-athletes, in at least some circumstances, are subject to pervasive control of their time and behavior that they are employees is a more compelling argument but i don't know that Brown squash is tantamount to Alabama football.

toddlose
Everyone that applies know what they are getting into. If you don’t like it, go play your sport elsewhere and get ur scholarship from that other school.

scoop85

ugarte
the problem with the suit is that it presumes a likelihood of giving athletic scholarships in a non-collusive environemnt, as if it were the only conference to do so but neither the patriot nor all of D-III give athletic scholarships either, both by a rule agreed to and imposed by a higher body. i don't think it flies in a post-NIL world. the NLRB's ruling that student-athletes, in at least some circumstances, are subject to pervasive control of their time and behavior that they are employees is a more compelling argument but i don't know that Brown squash is tantamount to Alabama football.

I agree with your point, but FYI I believe all Patriot schools are now giving athletic scholarships

abmarks

scoop85

ugarte
the problem with the suit is that it presumes a likelihood of giving athletic scholarships in a non-collusive environemnt, as if it were the only conference to do so but neither the patriot nor all of D-III give athletic scholarships either, both by a rule agreed to and imposed by a higher body. i don't think it flies in a post-NIL world. the NLRB's ruling that student-athletes, in at least some circumstances, are subject to pervasive control of their time and behavior that they are employees is a more compelling argument but i don't know that Brown squash is tantamount to Alabama football.

I agree with your point, but FYI I believe all Patriot schools are now giving athletic scholarships

The linked ESPN article says "The policy, which dates back to 1954, makes the Ivy League the only Division I athletic conference that prohibits member schools from offering athletic scholarships."

So to ugarte's point about presuming a likelihood of scholarships being offered in a non collusive environment, I agree. The question is whether the law cares about just how likely it is, or if the law cares only that it could ever possibly happen.

ugarte

abmarks

scoop85

ugarte
the problem with the suit is that it presumes a likelihood of giving athletic scholarships in a non-collusive environemnt, as if it were the only conference to do so but neither the patriot nor all of D-III give athletic scholarships either, both by a rule agreed to and imposed by a higher body. i don't think it flies in a post-NIL world. the NLRB's ruling that student-athletes, in at least some circumstances, are subject to pervasive control of their time and behavior that they are employees is a more compelling argument but i don't know that Brown squash is tantamount to Alabama football.

I agree with your point, but FYI I believe all Patriot schools are now giving athletic scholarships

The linked ESPN article says "The policy, which dates back to 1954, makes the Ivy League the only Division I athletic conference that prohibits member schools from offering athletic scholarships."

So to ugarte's point about presuming a likelihood of scholarships being offered in a non collusive environment, I agree. The question is whether the law cares about just how likely it is, or if the law cares only that it could ever possibly happen.

fair enough re: patriot league. makes it a closer question anyway. there was probably internal agitation from inside the patriot league for a rule change and i don't know that the record will be as good among the ivies but that's a fact question that will require discovery.

abmarks

ugarte

abmarks

scoop85

ugarte
the problem with the suit is that it presumes a likelihood of giving athletic scholarships in a non-collusive environemnt, as if it were the only conference to do so but neither the patriot nor all of D-III give athletic scholarships either, both by a rule agreed to and imposed by a higher body. i don't think it flies in a post-NIL world. the NLRB's ruling that student-athletes, in at least some circumstances, are subject to pervasive control of their time and behavior that they are employees is a more compelling argument but i don't know that Brown squash is tantamount to Alabama football.

I agree with your point, but FYI I believe all Patriot schools are now giving athletic scholarships

The linked ESPN article says "The policy, which dates back to 1954, makes the Ivy League the only Division I athletic conference that prohibits member schools from offering athletic scholarships."

So to ugarte's point about presuming a likelihood of scholarships being offered in a non collusive environment, I agree. The question is whether the law cares about just how likely it is, or if the law cares only that it could ever possibly happen.

fair enough re: patriot league. makes it a closer question anyway. there was probably internal agitation from inside the patriot league for a rule change and i don't know that the record will be as good among the ivies but that's a fact question that will require discovery.

Except, after reading up a bit on antitrust and pricefixing law, it doesn't look like it requires proving that prices will change. It's simply illegal to agree to fix a price.

Using the financial aid case as an example, the issue was the *agreement* on aid levels. But it would be completely legal to offer the same aid levels when it happens absent that agreement. If each of the ivy's independently implemented aid-level matching (aka price-matching) policies on aid offers from their ivy competition, that'd be completely legal.

David Harding
The Sun does a piece on the Brown suit.

that article
Due to the 1945 “Ivy Group Agreement,” Ivy League institutions have never offered athletic scholarships. Furthermore, the Improving America’s Schools Act of 1994 contained a provision under Section 568 that validated Ivy League colleges’ ability to collectively decide not to give athletic scholarships so long as students are admitted on a need-blind basis — which means that admissions policies are independent of a student’s ability to pay for tuition.

However, Section 568 expired on Sept. 30, weakening the legal support for the Ivy League’s lack of athletic scholarships. The lawsuit contends that Ivy League schools’ agreement to not compete with each other in athlete recruitment through offering scholarships and other educational reimbursements violates the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890, which outlaws actions that impede interstate commerce and marketplace competition.

BREAKING: 15 men's basketball players at Dartmouth College are forming a union and joining @SEIU local 560. pic.twitter.com/bEMGIb1l00

— Daily Union Elections (@UnionElections) September 14, 2023

jtwcornell91
I have to say, Dartmouth is the last Ivy whose students I'd expect to unionize.

Trotsky

jtwcornell91
I have to say, Dartmouth is the last Ivy whose students I'd expect to unionize.

They have the most vocal douchebags, but those are an incel minority there as on every other campus.

jtwcornell91

Trotsky

jtwcornell91
I have to say, Dartmouth is the last Ivy whose students I'd expect to unionize.

They have the most vocal douchebags, but those are an incel minority there as on every other campus.

I feel like that could be a Dartmouth motto: "We have the most vocal douchebags".