Cornell Women's softball problems

[cornellsun.com]

Good story. Hold their feet to the fire. Sometimes athletes who've grown up being stars (else you wouldn't go on to the next level) have a too-high sense of their worth and importance, and gripe too much. But all they've learned about teamwork and pulling together makes it seem as if the players would not speak out unless there was an issue.

This is where the Meakem-Smith Director of Athletics and Physical Education earns the big bucks. That and trying to be cheerful up in his box in the colonnade at Schoellkopf in the fourth quarter, in the rain, in late October, when Cornell is down by 3 TDs and is looking at third and 24 on its own 11-yard-line. The president can leave at halftime. Not him.

Note the Daily Pennsylvanian cited similarly issues with the Penn softball team in 2018. [www.thedp.com] [edit add: And Penn softball coach Leslie King is still there, just completed her 16th season, 22-17, including wins over Cornell 12-7, 8-0, 14-0. Had been captain of the 1991 New Zealand world cup soccer team.]

billhoward
Good story. Hold their feet to the fire. Sometimes athletes who've grown up being stars (else you wouldn't go on to the next level) have a too-high sense of their worth and importance, and gripe too much. But all they've learned about teamwork and pulling together makes it seem as if the players would not speak out unless there was an issue.

This is where the Meakem-Smith Director of Athletics and Physical Education earns the big bucks. That and trying to be cheerful up in his box in the colonnade at Schoellkopf in the fourth quarter, in the rain, in late October, when Cornell is down by 3 TDs and is looking at third and 24 on its own 11-yard-line. The president can leave at halftime. Not him.

This President is anti-sports, I'd be surprised if she even made it to the "President's box" to watch the game.

Note the Daily Pennsylvanian cited similarly issues with the Penn softball team in 2018. [www.thedp.com]

Martha Pollack does attend football games. I'm less sure than you that she is anti-sports. It is more that she runs one of the world's 25 great universities, also one of NYS' top 10 employers, and there are conflicting demands on her time. You can't be great unless you have money to run the show, and the show's popularity and ratings depend on the quality of faculty. We are next to last among the Ivies in "urban setting that makes with jobs for trailing spouse." Her Homecoming Weekend day started pretty early and ended late and maybe she was blocked out for a private conversation at the same time as the second-half kickoff. <thread drift>

cornell athletics does not care about cornell athletics. its as about poorly run an AD as there is anywhere.

upprdeck
cornell athletics does not care about cornell athletics. its as about poorly run an AD as there is anywhere.

Cornell athletics is about donor money. Everything about Cornell is about either donor money or grant money and has been for at least 50, if not 100, years. It's a property scam that adheres to a university for the public good will.

But then again, if A.D. White and Ezra's vision was intact we wouldn't have any athletics, so: hockey or academic integrity? Seems like an easy choice to me. Go Red!

Trotsky

upprdeck
cornell athletics does not care about cornell athletics. its as about poorly run an AD as there is anywhere.

Cornell athletics is about donor money. Everything about Cornell is about either donor money or grant money and has been for at least 50, if not 100, years. It's a property scam that adheres to a university for the public good will.

But then again, if A.D. White and Ezra's vision was intact we wouldn't have any athletics, so: hockey or academic integrity? Seems like an easy choice to me. Go Red!

Pretty sure Cornell had a baseball "club" and a boating "club" by about 1870.

Beeeej

Trotsky

upprdeck
cornell athletics does not care about cornell athletics. its as about poorly run an AD as there is anywhere.

Cornell athletics is about donor money. Everything about Cornell is about either donor money or grant money and has been for at least 50, if not 100, years. It's a property scam that adheres to a university for the public good will.

But then again, if A.D. White and Ezra's vision was intact we wouldn't have any athletics, so: hockey or academic integrity? Seems like an easy choice to me. Go Red!

Pretty sure Cornell had a baseball "club" and a boating "club" by about 1870.

And I'm sure they were manned by Upper Class Twit of the Year candidates indulging in muscular Christianity so they wouldn't masturbate or turn Socialist, in that order.

Trotsky

Beeeej

Trotsky

upprdeck
cornell athletics does not care about cornell athletics. its as about poorly run an AD as there is anywhere.

Cornell athletics is about donor money. Everything about Cornell is about either donor money or grant money and has been for at least 50, if not 100, years. It's a property scam that adheres to a university for the public good will.

But then again, if A.D. White and Ezra's vision was intact we wouldn't have any athletics, so: hockey or academic integrity? Seems like an easy choice to me. Go Red!

Pretty sure Cornell had a baseball "club" and a boating "club" by about 1870.

And I'm sure they were manned by Upper Class Twit of the Year candidates indulging in muscular Christianity so they wouldn't masturbate or turn Socialist, in that order.

...admitted by A.D. and Ezra in pursuit of their "vision."

Beeeej

Trotsky

Beeeej

Trotsky

upprdeck
cornell athletics does not care about cornell athletics. its as about poorly run an AD as there is anywhere.

Cornell athletics is about donor money. Everything about Cornell is about either donor money or grant money and has been for at least 50, if not 100, years. It's a property scam that adheres to a university for the public good will.

But then again, if A.D. White and Ezra's vision was intact we wouldn't have any athletics, so: hockey or academic integrity? Seems like an easy choice to me. Go Red!

Pretty sure Cornell had a baseball "club" and a boating "club" by about 1870.

And I'm sure they were manned by Upper Class Twit of the Year candidates indulging in muscular Christianity so they wouldn't masturbate or turn Socialist, in that order.

...admitted by A.D. and Ezra in pursuit of their "vision."

Oceans rise, empires fall.

It gets uglier, with three players dismissed from the team. [cornellsun.com]

Trotsky

Beeeej

Trotsky

upprdeck
cornell athletics does not care about cornell athletics. its as about poorly run an AD as there is anywhere.

Cornell athletics is about donor money. Everything about Cornell is about either donor money or grant money and has been for at least 50, if not 100, years. It's a property scam that adheres to a university for the public good will.

But then again, if A.D. White and Ezra's vision was intact we wouldn't have any athletics, so: hockey or academic integrity? Seems like an easy choice to me. Go Red!

Pretty sure Cornell had a baseball "club" and a boating "club" by about 1870.

And I'm sure they were manned by Upper Class Twit of the Year candidates indulging in muscular Christianity so they wouldn't masturbate or turn Socialist, in that order.

Very unfair, at least to A.D. When Cornell started out he was getting letters insisting Cornell provide a good "Christian education." Although he too paid lip service to the concept, the author of A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom never took this religious stuff seriously.

As a teenager he refused to be confirmed, which is why he started at Geneva College. Dad insisted he go to a school affiliated with the family's church.

In his letters to other academic reformers, A.D. wrote: "Imagine a university dedicated to truth for truth's sake. One free of potentially corrupting influences: free of religious influences, free of political influences, free of commercial influences." (I'm quoting from memory, so this isn't literal.)

In retrospect, Cornell has done a pretty good job with two out of the three. Unfortunately, Cornell has gone way overboard selling out (literally) to commercial interests.

OTOH, I believe it was after the Democratic Party's nomination of Bryan for the 1896 presidential election that he wrote an op-ed in the N.Y. Times warning about the anarchists and socialists supporting the Democrat.

Nobody's perfect.

Laing shoulda kept men's fencing and gymnastics instead of this crapshow.... Not that I'm still bitter about losing my senior season or anything.

Trotsky

Beeeej

Trotsky

Beeeej

Trotsky

upprdeck
cornell athletics does not care about cornell athletics. its as about poorly run an AD as there is anywhere.

Cornell athletics is about donor money. Everything about Cornell is about either donor money or grant money and has been for at least 50, if not 100, years. It's a property scam that adheres to a university for the public good will.

But then again, if A.D. White and Ezra's vision was intact we wouldn't have any athletics, so: hockey or academic integrity? Seems like an easy choice to me. Go Red!

Pretty sure Cornell had a baseball "club" and a boating "club" by about 1870.

And I'm sure they were manned by Upper Class Twit of the Year candidates indulging in muscular Christianity so they wouldn't masturbate or turn Socialist, in that order.

...admitted by A.D. and Ezra in pursuit of their "vision."

Oceans rise, empires fall.

Can we send a fully armed battalion to remind the players of OUR love? Even if the admin behave like autocrats.

Robb
Laing shoulda kept men's fencing and gymnastics instead of this crapshow.... Not that I'm still bitter about losing my senior season or anything.

“Should have kept men’s fencing and gymnastics” said no one ever

David Harding
It gets uglier, with three players dismissed from the team. [cornellsun.com]

Whether the coach is right or wrong, whether she stays or goes, this puts a damper on Cornell recruiting for a couple years.

billhoward

David Harding
It gets uglier, with three players dismissed from the team. [cornellsun.com]

Whether the coach is right or wrong, whether she stays or goes, this puts a damper on Cornell recruiting for a couple years.

From the outside it seems quite a remarkable contrast between what it took to fire Ben DeLuca versus what seems to be at least indecision to fire Farlow.

Maybe it's because she attended Cornell. Oh wait, ....

Swampy

billhoward

David Harding
It gets uglier, with three players dismissed from the team. [cornellsun.com]

Whether the coach is right or wrong, whether she stays or goes, this puts a damper on Cornell recruiting for a couple years.

From the outside it seems quite a remarkable contrast between what it took to fire Ben DeLuca versus what seems to be at least indecision to fire Farlow.

Maybe it's because she attended Cornell. Oh wait, ....

There are several versions of why Ben DeLuca was removed as coach. My understanding of what happened to the coach of a team that lost only 3 one-goal games in the RS and came two goals shy of making the NCAA title game: The hierarchy of the athletics program (and Day Hall) found the team's behavior that summer/fall (2013) transgressed from Cornell's expectations of gentlemen and scholars. DeLuca was not aligned with Cornell's expectations and he was made to walk the plank. All that had more visibility then than issues between the coach and softball players now.

Some of us may not like Andy Noel. We may not think this is big time sports. (It is not mega-big-time, not when an Ohio State has an athletics budget that runs $110 million, or about $110,000 for every one of TOSU's thousand varsity athletes. But with so many teams and national rankings for at least a half-dozen, it must be one of the 100 most prominent of the ~2,500 US four-year colleges/universities.) But overall it's nice to know not every football coach (hello and goodbye, DJ Durkin at Maryland), or basketball coach (TTFN, Rick Pitino at Louisville) can tell the school who's boss. Recall it was just 15 years ago that living legend Joe Paterno chased the university president out of Paterno's house when president Graham Spanier suggested it was time Joe Pa at 76 should consider winding down. A decade later, the Nittany Lions have reloaded (athletics savvy and possibly hubris) and they've forgotten the SI cover, "We Were Penn State."

That's what I've heard: In a war of wills between Cornell and the coach, Cornell prevailed. If you've got a better version, share it. For all the coaching transition - three coaches this decade, DeLuca 3 years, Kerwick 3 years, Millman 2 years - we've still be to the NCAAs five of nine years. (Also one of the last four.)

billhoward

Swampy

billhoward

David Harding
It gets uglier, with three players dismissed from the team. [cornellsun.com]

Whether the coach is right or wrong, whether she stays or goes, this puts a damper on Cornell recruiting for a couple years.

From the outside it seems quite a remarkable contrast between what it took to fire Ben DeLuca versus what seems to be at least indecision to fire Farlow.

Maybe it's because she attended Cornell. Oh wait, ....

There are several versions of why Ben DeLuca was removed as coach. My understanding of what happened to the coach of a team that lost only 3 one-goal games in the RS and came two goals shy of making the NCAA title game: The hierarchy of the athletics program (and Day Hall) found the team's behavior that summer/fall (2013) transgressed from Cornell's expectations of gentlemen and scholars. DeLuca was not aligned with Cornell's expectations and he was made to walk the plank. All that had more visibility then than issues between the coach and softball players now.

Some of us may not like Andy Noel. We may not think this is big time sports. (It is not mega-big-time, not when an Ohio State has an athletics budget that runs $110 million, or about $110,000 for every one of TOSU's thousand varsity athletes. But with so many teams and national rankings for at least a half-dozen, it must be one of the 100 most prominent of the ~2,500 US four-year colleges/universities.) But overall it's nice to know not every football coach (hello and goodbye, DJ Durkin at Maryland), or basketball coach (TTFN, Rick Pitino at Louisville) can tell the school who's boss. Recall it was just 15 years ago that living legend Joe Paterno chased the university president out of Paterno's house when president Graham Spanier suggested it was time Joe Pa at 76 should consider winding down. A decade later, the Nittany Lions have reloaded (athletics savvy and possibly hubris) and they've forgotten the SI cover, "We Were Penn State."

That's what I've heard: In a war of wills between Cornell and the coach, Cornell prevailed. If you've got a better version, share it. For all the coaching transition - three coaches this decade, DeLuca 3 years, Kerwick 3 years, Millman 2 years - we've still be to the NCAAs five of nine years. (Also one of the last four.)

Bill,

I don't know any specifics first-hand. The only thing I've heard/read about the lacrosse team's behavior is that the upperclassmen were hazing freshman, including having them drink beer. I've also heard that some helicopter parents of players on the team weren't happy with B.D.'s decisions about playing time and expressed this vocally with the A.D.'s office.

I've also heard some scuttlebutt that B.D. & A.N. had some interpersonal issues.

Until the stuff about hazing came out when players were penalized, I had never heard about any of this. So, I'm not sure how visible it was.

I also understand that at the time of the hazing, Cornell was dealing with similar issues at fraternities, and this was making the press. Funny how an article in a major newspaper can suddenly cause increased emphasis on certain university policies.

The recent stuff in the Daily Sun about the softball team is, IMHO, far more visible.

Also, IMHO a coach who is abusive to players, penalizes players for injuries, demands they play injured, and is detrimental to their mental health is far more egregious than a coach whose players haze each other, presumably out of sight of the coach and without the coach's knowledge.

At this point my concern is not to relitigate DeLuca's firing. I would, however, like to see equal treatment for all coaches. From where I sit, it just seems DeLuca was held to a higher standard than Farlow is being held.

But I do agree that no coach should prevail over the school, unless Cornell is being demonstrably unfair. But I don't think prevailing over Cornell was an issue with DeLuca.

I believe Cornell comes down hard on any organized group with visible drinking, hazing or sexual harassment issues. Critics in the Greek and sports communities say Cornell goes easier, comparatively, on independents and their parties / drinking / harassment issues because that's harder to track down. This may be why there are so many fraternity / sorority outposts in Collegetown: they're not de jure frat house extensions. If there are issues and they're off-campus, it's harder to pin it on an organization. Daughter of one of my classmates pointed this out in a letter to the editor in the Sun about 5 years back. I should dig it out.

A couple other data points: Another Ivy contact-sport team I'm familiar with, the players mask their injuries from the training / coaching staff because they want to be in the game the next week. If that includes masking concussion issues, that's not a good long-term strategy for the athlete's long-term future. In other words, its's the players who themselves to play hurt, not the coaches.

Also, players' parents are crazy people, many of them, and there are very few who'll say, I love my kid but when he's in the game, we can hold our own but we can't catch up or extend the lead. Because up until this level of competition, their kids were all stars, on the all-county team and maybe all-state.

And other then a couple top coaches at each Ivy school, nobody's getting rich. There is no tenure.

[Edit add to clarify / summarize my posts here: In sports, it can be coaches who want players to play if they're hurt or not fully recovered, or players who mask their injuries because they want to play. Above is the part that says it's not just some coaches in sports who want some players to play hurt.]

Swampy
I also understand that at the time of the hazing, Cornell was dealing with similar issues at fraternities, and this was making the press. Funny how an article in a major newspaper can suddenly cause increased emphasis on certain university policies.

The recent stuff in the Daily Sun about the softball team is, IMHO, far more visible.

This op-ed piece in the New York Times by Cornell's president appeared not long before the lacrosse hazing incident.

[www.nytimes.com]

DeLuca apparently didn't get Skorton's very visible message across to his players.

Al DeFlorio

Swampy
I also understand that at the time of the hazing, Cornell was dealing with similar issues at fraternities, and this was making the press. Funny how an article in a major newspaper can suddenly cause increased emphasis on certain university policies.

The recent stuff in the Daily Sun about the softball team is, IMHO, far more visible.

This op-ed piece in the New York Times by Cornell's president appeared not long before the lacrosse hazing incident.

[www.nytimes.com]

DeLuca apparently didn't get Skorton's very visible message across to his players.

Totally agree with this, and most of what Bill says.

"Playing hurt" covers a wide range: a bruised thigh, a broken bone, a concussion, torn tendon, .... While I can see player playing hurt in some circumstances, the training staff should be able to observe injuries occurring in games and practices, and the staff should both ascertain the seriousness of the injury and ensure players don't play with serious injuries. In the weight room, road work, and other settings, this is not possible, so team rules must require players to report such injuries to the trainers. I'm not sure where it is or how to draw it, but particularly in college sports there needs to be a line to protect players from themselves.

Skorton's op-ed is a good read. If the demeaning part of hazing could be eliminated, I can imagine all kinds of learning -- about diet, community service, exercise, teamwork, caring, etc. -- that Greek organizations could substitute for hazing. On athletic teams much of this should be built in and at a higher level (e.g., don't just stretch out, learn the physiology of stretching).

But I stand by my original point. I don't know if the allegations about Farlow are true. But if they are, I think "a coach who is abusive to players, penalizes players for injuries, demands they play injured, and is detrimental to their mental health" should be treated as seriously as a coach who doesn't successfully get a message across about drinking and hazing. It should be both/and, not either/or.

Swampy
But I stand by my original point. I don't know if the allegations about Farlow are true. But if they are, I think "a coach who is abusive to players, penalizes players for injuries, demands they play injured, and is detrimental to their mental health" should be treated as seriously as a coach who doesn't successfully get a message across about drinking and hazing. It should be both/and, not either/or.

That is nicely balanced. It's not possible to know who is more right or how true the allegations are. The players going public on this, and the Sun writing on the situation, means the athletic department will pay more attention.

billhoward
I believe Cornell comes down hard on any organized group with visible drinking, hazing or sexual harassment issues. Critics in the Greek and sports communities say Cornell goes easier, comparatively, on independents and their parties / drinking / harassment issues because that's harder to track down. This may be why there are so many fraternity / sorority outposts in Collegetown: they're not de jure frat house extensions. If there are issues and they're off-campus, it's harder to pin it on an organization. Daughter of one of my classmates pointed this out in a letter to the editor in the Sun about 5 years back. I should dig it out.

A couple other data points: Another Ivy contact-sport team I'm familiar with, the players mask their injuries from the training / coaching staff because they want to be in the game the next week. If that includes masking concussion issues, that's not a good long-term strategy for the athlete's long-term future. In other words, its's the players who themselves to play hurt, not the coaches.

Also, players' parents are crazy people, many of them, and there are very few who'll say, I love my kid but when he's in the game, we can hold our own but we can't catch up or extend the lead. Because up until this level of competition, their kids were all stars, on the all-county team and maybe all-state.

And other then a couple top coaches at each Ivy school, nobody's getting rich. There is no tenure.

So your point is that since some players want to play, even though they are hurt, therefore coaches can't be responsible for pushing players to play when they are hurt?

It's a coaching staff's responsibility to be sure that they are not harming collegiate players for the sake of their won/loss record.

If Cornell has coaches who think their record is more important than their player's health, those coaches should be fired.

Jim Hyla
So your point is that _______

If I could put it in my words: The Sun's story says some players felt pressured to play when they were hurt, or were unsure about the severity of their injuries and their recovery. I added that there are instances where the opposite happens, that players sometimes mask injuries from the training staff because the players want to play and the players believe those are injuries they'll recover from.

billhoward

Jim Hyla
So your point is that _______

If I could put it in my words: The Sun's story says some players felt pressured to play when they were hurt, or were unsure about the severity of their injuries and their recovery. I added that there are instances where the opposite happens, that players sometimes mask injuries from the training staff because the players want to play and the players believe those are injuries they'll recover from.

I totally agree with that. Unfortunately in reading your post it says it's the players and not the coaches.

Sometimes, yes; but you don't say sometimes and it implies that it's not the coaches, but the players.

With the softball team it seems to be the coaches.

I'm glad you further explained your post.