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Cornell lacrosse 2018

Posted by billhoward 
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Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: mountainred (69.43.54.---)
Date: May 14, 2018 08:47AM

dbilmes
This article in Inside Lacrosse gives Milliman a lot of credit for the victory. "Cornell advanced to the NCAA Quarterfinals — the first time since 2013 — because it outplayed and outcoached Syracuse at its own game." While the ESPN broadcast crew did an adequate job overall with their in-game analysis, I don't recall hearing them talk much about Milliman's "interim" status, or about the controversy over giving Syracuse a home game and sending Cornell on the road. I'd also like to find out what happened when Milliman pulled Knight for a few minutes in the second quarter. I haven't seen anything about that in any of the post-match coverage.

Knight was penalized for slashing. You can't play without a goalie, but Knight has to serve the penalty himself. The WHCU crew explained it perfectly.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Trotsky (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: May 14, 2018 09:08AM

RichH
Al DeFlorio
French Rage
Wooo! 10-9 final with a penalty w/ 2 seconds left but nothing happens.
Should have flattened Nims like that with seconds left in 2009.

Can I ask that we just stop mentioning during every single lax game discussion what SHOULD have happened during a 10 second period in 2009? WE. KNOW.

This level of “laces out” obsession has far surpassed “Ross Lemon’s penalty shot on his birthday” on this site.

Dear Rich,

We don't want to hear your shit.

Love, Seahawks fans.


 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Swampy (---.ri.ri.cox.net)
Date: May 14, 2018 09:13AM

margolism
Last three games the Cornell defense has been lights out in the second half.
- Versus Brown, 3 second half goals allowed
- Versus Yale, 3 second half goals allowed
- Versus Syracuse, 2 second half goals allowed

Whether this is due to comfort or defense adjustments, I don’t know. But I’ll take it.

I was only at the Yale game and can say, in this game at least, it was definitely due to an adjustment. Yale's Reese owned Cornell in the first half, repeatedly beating his man by coming around the left side of the goal and then shooting unobstructed. I think he scored 5 goals that way and kept Yale in the game.

In the second half, Cornell started to double-team him whenever he came around like that. IIRC, he scored one goal against man-to-man the first time he came around, but after that the double-team began and shut him down completely. He'd have to do things like run out close to midfield just in order to pass off.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: upprdeck (---.fs.cornell.edu)
Date: May 14, 2018 09:18AM

was it related to the fact Knight took the slash penalty, dont know the rule on that is it like hockey and someone else serves it? or perhaps because he had the bad give away goal before that and they wanted to settle him down
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Trotsky (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: May 14, 2018 09:29AM

So I need some remedial lax tutoring. 5 seconds to go and we truck the Syracuse player with possession and take the penalty. Why didn't that stop the play and lead to Syracuse getting some advantage (extra player?) for the final 5 seconds?

It looked to me like our Dman could have just pulled out a handgun and shot the guy and there would be no recourse at that point.

That seems like a Very Stupid Way to structure your rules.

I'll hang up and take my answer off the air.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2018 09:31AM by Trotsky.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Al DeFlorio (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: May 14, 2018 09:51AM

Trotsky
So I need some remedial lax tutoring. 5 seconds to go and we truck the Syracuse player with possession and take the penalty. Why didn't that stop the play and lead to Syracuse getting some advantage (extra player?) for the final 5 seconds?

It looked to me like our Dman could have just pulled out a handgun and shot the guy and there would be no recourse at that point.

That seems like a Very Stupid Way to structure your rules.

I'll hang up and take my answer off the air.
The clock runs until Cornell gets possession or there's a dead ball situation.

 
___________________________
Al DeFlorio '65
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Chris H82 (172.56.40.---)
Date: May 14, 2018 09:52AM

Like Trotsky, I too could use some remedial lax education. But here's a theory (which is mine). After watching the reply a couple of times, it looks like the Syracuse player's left (warding) arm went in between the Cornell defenseman's stick and body, thus pulling the Cornell player into him (and onto him) as he lost his balance. So was the penalty on the Syracuse player?
Or is this theory the result of a biased viewer having had too much beer?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2018 09:53AM by Chris H82.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: dag14 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: May 14, 2018 09:53AM

Knight got a penalty for slashing so he left the game to serve his penalty. The ESPN announcers missed it all; I am not sure they ever acknowledged that fact.

With regard to the end-of-game flag, it was a brilliant move to be satisfied just tying up the attackman on the ground -- until Cornell touches the ball, they play on.

Someone on Laxpower suggested that penalty was on the attackman for holding the stick. I have not seen that verified.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2018 09:58AM by dag14.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: KenP (137.75.68.---)
Date: May 14, 2018 10:01AM

dag14
Knight got a penalty for slashing so he left the game to serve his penalty. The ESPN announcers missed it all; I am not sure they ever acknowledged that fact.
ESPN did explain correctly why he left. When Knight returned.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: upprdeck (---.fs.cornell.edu)
Date: May 14, 2018 10:02AM

did they mention if there is any hope of getting back the #1 FO guy.. Why did we just give up and go with the long poll so quickly did the #2 get hurt during the game?
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Al DeFlorio (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: May 14, 2018 10:08AM

KenP
dag14
Knight got a penalty for slashing so he left the game to serve his penalty. The ESPN announcers missed it all; I am not sure they ever acknowledged that fact.
ESPN did explain correctly why he left. When Knight returned.
Long after he returned. When he first returned, they commented about Milliman playing musical chairs with his keepers and speculated that Milliman just wanted to give Knight a short break to gather himself. Then, later, they corrected themselves.

 
___________________________
Al DeFlorio '65
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: billhoward (---.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
Date: May 14, 2018 10:52AM

Goalie serves own penalty in lacrosse, also most high school leagues. I have seen a not-close HS game where the losing team had no real backup and the coaches agreed to let somebody else serve. Syracuse would not have agreed to that one. The TV commentary apparently helped confuse viewers; they thought Knight had been benched.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: George64 (---.rochester.res.rr.com)
Date: May 14, 2018 12:02PM

dbilmes
I'd also like to find out what happened when Milliman pulled Knight for a few minutes in the second quarter. I haven't seen anything about that in any of the post-match coverage.

There was a one minute penalty against Knight for slashing.

Oops - I responded before I saw the subsequent discussion.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2018 12:14PM by George64.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Ken711 (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 14, 2018 12:09PM

dbilmes
This article in Inside Lacrosse gives Milliman a lot of credit for the victory. "Cornell advanced to the NCAA Quarterfinals — the first time since 2013 — because it outplayed and outcoached Syracuse at its own game." While the ESPN broadcast crew did an adequate job overall with their in-game analysis, I don't recall hearing them talk much about Milliman's "interim" status, or about the controversy over giving Syracuse a home game and sending Cornell on the road. I'd also like to find out what happened when Milliman pulled Knight for a few minutes in the second quarter. I haven't seen anything about that in any of the post-match coverage.

The TV announcers mentioned that Cornell should remove the interim status for Milliman.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: CU77 (---.sb.sd.cox.net)
Date: May 14, 2018 12:10PM

The theory that the flag at the end was on Solomon of Cuse for holding on to Pulver's stick was posted by me on laxpower; it is refuted by the non-whistle when a Cuse player picks up the ball (but time was almost up at that point so it's conceivable that the ref just didn't get the whistle blown yet). IMO, the correct call was a flag on Cuse. Whether this was the actual call is known only to the ref.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: scoop85 (---.nyc.biz.rr.com)
Date: May 14, 2018 12:55PM

Al DeFlorio
djk26
Thanks, Al. This shutoff stuff is terrible to watch. Poor Jeff Teat looks so lonely. Thank God for Clarke Peterson. LGR!
I'm afraid the next two years will be like this for Teat. Shame.

I agree. The problem is that Teat is a tactical player, but not especially physical, so it's easier to shut him off then a bigger attackman like Pat Spencer.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: French Rage (38.99.127.---)
Date: May 14, 2018 01:51PM

Trotsky
So I need some remedial lax tutoring. 5 seconds to go and we truck the Syracuse player with possession and take the penalty. Why didn't that stop the play and lead to Syracuse getting some advantage (extra player?) for the final 5 seconds?

It looked to me like our Dman could have just pulled out a handgun and shot the guy and there would be no recourse at that point.

That seems like a Very Stupid Way to structure your rules.

I'll hang up and take my answer off the air.

Wouldn't the same be the case for hockey? Or is there some rule where it's up to the refs discretion? Like maybe if there's 5-10 seconds left you could trip someone and then have your players avoid touching the puck while time runs down; probably harder to do safely in hockey given the smaller dimensions of the game.

 
___________________________
03/23/02: Maine 4, Harvard 3
03/28/03: BU 6, Harvard 4
03/26/04: Maine 5, Harvard 4
03/26/05: UNH 3, Harvard 2
03/25/06: Maine 6, Harvard 1
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: ugarte (---.177.169.163.IPYX-102276-ZYO.zip.zayo.com)
Date: May 14, 2018 02:15PM

The penalty was not with 7 seconds left, it was with 2 seconds left. I think that makes most of the discussion academic. I am going to guess - presuming the penalty is on Pulver - that if you pull that move with 15 seconds left and somehow the clock just winds down (say the ball is trapped under Solomon) that the refs have discretion to put time back on the clock.

 
___________________________
Jokes and stuff
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Al DeFlorio (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: May 14, 2018 02:41PM

Teat article on collegecross:

[www.collegecrosse.com]

 
___________________________
Al DeFlorio '65
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: KenP (---.mycingular.net)
Date: May 14, 2018 04:37PM

Al DeFlorio
Teat article on collegecross:

[www.collegecrosse.com]
Wow, that’s crazy. I wonder how much his 0G-1A was a factor.

My favorite ESPN commentator line came just before that assist. “Teat now being guarded by a short stick I wonder what he will do.” ...... “Anything he wants to....”
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Al DeFlorio (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: May 14, 2018 04:48PM

KenP
Al DeFlorio
Teat article on collegecross:

[www.collegecrosse.com]
Wow, that’s crazy. I wonder how much his 0G-1A was a factor.

My favorite ESPN commentator line came just before that assist. “Teat now being guarded by a short stick I wonder what he will do.” ...... “Anything he wants to....”
Thanks for reminding me of those classic comments.

 
___________________________
Al DeFlorio '65
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: semsox (---.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 14, 2018 07:22PM

Regarding the penalty at the end and lack of dead-ball, I wonder if they'd ever change the rules to do something like in hockey, where maybe you allow a 7th attacker into the offensive half of the field before any whistle. This would generate a transition like opportunity of having an unmarked man streaking towards the box, and would also essentially lengthen the penalty advantage to the duration of the foul + whatever length of time you get the extra attacker. This seems like a more natural solution than those over at LaxPower calling for extra clock being put on after time expires.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: upprdeck (---.syrcny.east.verizon.net)
Date: May 14, 2018 07:49PM

except even now we dont know for sure which team the last penalty was on..
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Swampy (---.ri.ri.cox.net)
Date: May 15, 2018 07:49AM

If the penalty was on Cornell, play should stop when Cornell gains possession or the ball goes out of play.

If the penalty was on Syracuse, the same rule apply to Syracuse.

People have made good points about the rules and teams leading in tight games and fouling, deliberately or not. Here are some thoughts about tactics in such situations:

1. The leading team should contest ground balls and continue to defend as well as it can, but avoid gaining possession of the ball.
2. The opponent should try to gain possession as soon as possible and then throw the ball out of bounds at an advantageous spot; this will stop play, allow the team to get its EMO unit out, and give the team a man-up advantage.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: djk26 (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 15, 2018 10:53AM

Is there any chance Cornell will have Paul Rasimowicz back for Sunday's game, or is he out for the year?
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: BearLover (---.nycmny.ftas.verizon.net)
Date: May 15, 2018 11:52AM

What a great win--can't even imagine how good this team would be if it received the same number of possessions as its opponents.

Could someone who watches/remembers more lacrosse than me comment on whether Pannell ever got faceguarded? If so, what happened? If not, why not?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2018 02:10PM by BearLover.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Al DeFlorio (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: May 15, 2018 12:24PM

BearLover
What a great win--can't even imagine how good this team would be if it received the same number of possessions as its opponents.

Could someone who watches/remember more lacrosse than me comment on whether Pannell ever got faceguarded? If so, what happened? If not, why not?
Harvard shut him off in 2011. He stood off in a corner most of the time and Cornell played 5 on 5. David Lau had five goals and three assists in a 13-12 win. Pannell had two goals, probably taking the ball at the end line, and no assists.

 
___________________________
Al DeFlorio '65
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: BearLover (---.nycmny.ftas.verizon.net)
Date: May 15, 2018 02:11PM

Al DeFlorio
BearLover
What a great win--can't even imagine how good this team would be if it received the same number of possessions as its opponents.

Could someone who watches/remember more lacrosse than me comment on whether Pannell ever got faceguarded? If so, what happened? If not, why not?
Harvard shut him off in 2011. He stood off in a corner most of the time and Cornell played 5 on 5. David Lau had five goals and three assists in a 13-12 win. Pannell had two goals, probably taking the ball at the end line, and no assists.
OK, and why didn't other teams replicate Harvard's strategy? Is there something different about Pannell that made faceguarding him harder? Pannell being stronger?
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: djk26 (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 15, 2018 02:33PM

BearLover
OK, and why didn't other teams replicate Harvard's strategy? Is there something different about Pannell that made faceguarding him harder? Pannell being stronger?

I've been wondering the same thing. I remember someone commenting during the 2013 semifinal that Duke was "faceguarding Mock." I hated that game. And watching the faceguard against Teat two nights ago...ugh. Is the downside to faceguarding or shutting off that you take one of your defensive player out of the action?
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: ugarte (---.177.169.163.ipyx-102276-zyo.zip.zayo.com)
Date: May 15, 2018 03:08PM

Idle thought: please sign Millman to a deal before we have to get in an offseason bidding war.

 
___________________________
Jokes and stuff
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: djk26 (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 15, 2018 03:21PM

ugarte
Idle thought: please sign Millman to a deal before we have to get in an offseason bidding war.

Andy Noel works in mysterious ways. It will probably be something like a handshake after Cornell's last game and AN saying, "Great job, Pete, we'd like you to put in an application for the permanent job." And then Milliman is so insulted that he takes a job at Duke as an assistant coach and helps lead them to three national titles.

Ok, now I've gotten that out.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: billhoward (204.111.55.---)
Date: May 15, 2018 11:44PM

ugarte
Idle thought: please sign Millman to a deal before we have to get in an offseason bidding war.
I want to see this story:
Cornell Interim Coach Wins USILA Coach of the Year Award
... better than ...

Departed Cornell Interim Coach Wins USILA Coach of the Year Award
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: mike1960 (---.dh.suddenlink.net)
Date: May 16, 2018 09:24AM

billhoward
ugarte
Idle thought: please sign Millman to a deal before we have to get in an offseason bidding war.
I want to see this story:
Cornell Interim Coach Wins USILA Coach of the Year Award
... better than ...

Departed Cornell Interim Coach Wins USILA Coach of the Year Award

All you have to do to take the best player off the field is to face guard him. The team will set him to the side for you.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: CU77 (---.sb.sd.cox.net)
Date: May 16, 2018 11:37AM

Did you actually watch the Syracuse game? Is that what you saw happening?
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: djk26 (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 16, 2018 12:32PM

CU77
Did you actually watch the Syracuse game? Is that what you saw happening?

I'm jumping in here because I want to understand this better. What I saw was Teat unable to participate (except for restarts) because Mellen followed him with every step. What can Teat do to escape this? I saw a video on v-cuts yesterday that looked promising, but also difficult to pull off as you need your teammates to get you the ball at exactly the right moment, and if you (and your teammates) haven't practiced that all season, it's hard to start doing it now.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Swampy (---.ri.ri.cox.net)
Date: May 16, 2018 12:51PM

djk26
CU77
Did you actually watch the Syracuse game? Is that what you saw happening?

I'm jumping in here because I want to understand this better. What I saw was Teat unable to participate (except for restarts) because Mellen followed him with every step. What can Teat do to escape this? I saw a video on v-cuts yesterday that looked promising, but also difficult to pull off as you need your teammates to get you the ball at exactly the right moment, and if you (and your teammates) haven't practiced that all season, it's hard to start doing it now.

I suspect Cornell started practicing them after the Princeton game. We may still see them.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Tom Lento (199.201.64.---)
Date: May 16, 2018 02:47PM

djk26
CU77
Did you actually watch the Syracuse game? Is that what you saw happening?

I'm jumping in here because I want to understand this better. What I saw was Teat unable to participate (except for restarts) because Mellen followed him with every step. What can Teat do to escape this? I saw a video on v-cuts yesterday that looked promising, but also difficult to pull off as you need your teammates to get you the ball at exactly the right moment, and if you (and your teammates) haven't practiced that all season, it's hard to start doing it now.

I would also like to understand this better. Is this one of those things where there are a handful of players good enough to shut Teat down like this? Why didn't Yale use this strategy in the ILT final? Or did they? I assume Yale didn't, since Teat got 6 points on Cornell's 17 goals, but maybe they did and that's just what happens when you aren't good enough to pull it off.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Trotsky (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: May 16, 2018 03:23PM

Tom Lento
Is this one of those things where there are a handful of players good enough to shut Teat down like this?
Seems that way, otherwise you'd always just take your worst player and eliminate their best player, and they'd do the same, and so on...

Sounds like it makes the sport needlessly boring, like allowing a basketball defender to wrap his arms around the legs of LeBron and neutralize him for the entire game. Why not just arrange the rules so gamesmanship of that type is simply deemed interference? "Tradition!"?
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2018 03:25PM by Trotsky.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: djk26 (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 16, 2018 03:44PM

Trotsky
Tom Lento
Is this one of those things where there are a handful of players good enough to shut Teat down like this?

Sounds like it makes the sport needlessly boring, like allowing a basketball defender to wrap his arms around the legs of LeBron and neutralize him for the entire game.

What was Mellen actually doing, though? From what I saw, he was just following Teat around, forcing Teat to basically do nothing.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Tom Lento (199.201.64.---)
Date: May 16, 2018 07:05PM

djk26
Trotsky
Tom Lento
Is this one of those things where there are a handful of players good enough to shut Teat down like this?

Sounds like it makes the sport needlessly boring, like allowing a basketball defender to wrap his arms around the legs of LeBron and neutralize him for the entire game.

What was Mellen actually doing, though? From what I saw, he was just following Teat around, forcing Teat to basically do nothing.

Yeah, from what I've seen and heard there's nothing wrong with the rules here. If a sufficiently badass defender can faceguard a top offensive player and effectively neutralize him that sounds like good defense to me, or maybe a hole in the offensive player's game. If *any* defender could do that to *any* offensive player then sure, maybe the game balance is shifted too far in favor of the defense, but I don't see any evidence of that here. It's not like Teat has been totally removed as a factor from the scoresheet since the Princeton game, either - he's got 10 points in 3 games since, 4 of which came during this weird isolation faceguard setup vs Brown and Syracuse.

It's very hard for me, with my relatively limited baseline knowledge of lacrosse, to figure out how much of the fuss over this represents a significant flaw in Cornell's (or Teat's) game and how much is just people griping on a message board about what could be an eminently reasonable coaching move against a couple of really strong individual defenders.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: upprdeck (---.syrcny.east.verizon.net)
Date: May 16, 2018 07:49PM

had cornell shot better they are ahead 3-4 goals and much of the strategy goes out the window
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: cu155 (104.247.128.---)
Date: May 16, 2018 10:04PM

There are a couple of reasons why teams don't faceguard.

1) In doing so it allows Cornell to open up the rest of the field more when effectivly playing 5x5 due to Teat being out of the action. If a team has multiple scoring threats and the ability to pass well this makes it hard for the rest of the defenders to cover the ball and someone will get open/get off a good shot. Cornell has multiple scoring threats and attackmen with good hands and shutting off Teat runs the risk of opening them up more.

2) It's really going to mainly be stud defenders who can stay in his face enough to actually remove him from the game.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: semsox (---.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 16, 2018 10:52PM

cu155
There are a couple of reasons why teams don't faceguard.

1) In doing so it allows Cornell to open up the rest of the field more when effectivly playing 5x5 due to Teat being out of the action. If a team has multiple scoring threats and the ability to pass well this makes it hard for the rest of the defenders to cover the ball and someone will get open/get off a good shot. Cornell has multiple scoring threats and attackmen with good hands and shutting off Teat runs the risk of opening them up more.

2) It's really going to mainly be stud defenders who can stay in his face enough to actually remove him from the game.

Agreed on both points. And as one further disadvantage, face-guarding essentially is an entirely new defensive scheme that affects slide packages, etc. In the Syracuse post-game presser, Nick Mellon said that the defense was instituted that week leading up to the game as a way of explaining some of their defensive breakdowns. It's not a fun style of play for either the offense or defense.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: JasonN95 (---.sub-174-203-6.myvzw.com)
Date: May 17, 2018 06:56AM

Is Teat starting with the ball from a reset after a shot not a way to use his play strengths? It seems that you could fairly easily manufacture that by taking a deliberately high and wide shot where you first ensure you have the backup for it. Can the officials choose to not give the closest team the ball if they believe the shot was not intended to hit the net, akin to a deliberate offsides call in hockey?
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: upprdeck (---.syrcny.east.verizon.net)
Date: May 17, 2018 07:34AM

Had Teat been able to take Mellon 1x1 a bit better then they give up trying it, Most teams left have stud defenders but as SU notes said. they had breakdowns after a week to prepare. It may happen this week but if we make it to the finals you have to wonder if that team with only a day to get ready tries it unless they have spent real time on it during the season.

that could explain why Yale did not try it
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2018 07:35AM by upprdeck.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Trotsky (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: May 17, 2018 10:14AM

JasonN95
Is Teat starting with the ball from a reset after a shot not a way to use his play strengths? It seems that you could fairly easily manufacture that by taking a deliberately high and wide shot where you first ensure you have the backup for it. Can the officials choose to not give the closest team the ball if they believe the shot was not intended to hit the net, akin to a deliberate offsides call in hockey?
Gotta be some sort of gamesmanship penalty like that, right? Otherwise, the possessing team could just continually drain the clock with their man running behind the defender to the out of bounds line, until the defense cut behind giving the guy a free run at the net.

I'm sure it's just my unfamiliarity with the sport but I've never understood what possession being granted to the nearest player gains for lax, as opposed to change of possession from the team that throws it out of bounds. Was there a moment where that decision was made in the rules or is this just the organic development of the sport?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2018 10:15AM by Trotsky.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: mike1960 (---.dh.suddenlink.net)
Date: May 17, 2018 10:18AM

Swampy
djk26
CU77
Did you actually watch the Syracuse game? Is that what you saw happening?

I'm jumping in here because I want to understand this better. What I saw was Teat unable to participate (except for restarts) because Mellen followed him with every step. What can Teat do to escape this? I saw a video on v-cuts yesterday that looked promising, but also difficult to pull off as you need your teammates to get you the ball at exactly the right moment, and if you (and your teammates) haven't practiced that all season, it's hard to start doing it now.

I suspect Cornell started practicing them after the Princeton game. We may still see them.

I hope so. It's not rocket science. Once Teat gets the ball in his stick, it's just plain lacrosse again. The face guard is irrelevant. I understand that face guarding impedes the flow of passing that Cornell likes to play, but Cornell is better when Teat has the ball.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Beeeej (Moderator)
Date: May 17, 2018 10:18AM

Trotsky
JasonN95
Is Teat starting with the ball from a reset after a shot not a way to use his play strengths? It seems that you could fairly easily manufacture that by taking a deliberately high and wide shot where you first ensure you have the backup for it. Can the officials choose to not give the closest team the ball if they believe the shot was not intended to hit the net, akin to a deliberate offsides call in hockey?
Gotta be some sort of gamesmanship penalty like that, right? Otherwise, the possessing team could just continually drain the clock with their man running behind the defender to the out of bounds line, until the defense cut behind giving the guy a free run at the net.

I'm sure it's just my unfamiliarity with the sport but I've never understood what possession being granted to the nearest player gains for lax, as opposed to change of possession from the team that throws it out of bounds. Was there a moment where that decision was made in the rules or is this just the organic development of the sport?

Not sure when the decision was made, but with no back wall to the field as in hockey, losing possession simply by missing a shot on goal massively disincentivizes shooting. Plus needing the nearest player to retain possession prevents too much bunching of offense around the crease.

 
___________________________
Beeeej, Esq.
Tundra British Columbia Headhunters Circus
Tucson or Bust!

"Cornell isn't an organization. It's a loose affiliation of independent fiefdoms united by a common hockey team."
- Steve Worona
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: scoop85 (---.nyc.biz.rr.com)
Date: May 17, 2018 10:24AM

Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Swampy (---.163.128.131.dhcp.uri.edu)
Date: May 17, 2018 02:10PM

Beeeej
Trotsky
JasonN95
Is Teat starting with the ball from a reset after a shot not a way to use his play strengths? It seems that you could fairly easily manufacture that by taking a deliberately high and wide shot where you first ensure you have the backup for it. Can the officials choose to not give the closest team the ball if they believe the shot was not intended to hit the net, akin to a deliberate offsides call in hockey?
Gotta be some sort of gamesmanship penalty like that, right? Otherwise, the possessing team could just continually drain the clock with their man running behind the defender to the out of bounds line, until the defense cut behind giving the guy a free run at the net.

I'm sure it's just my unfamiliarity with the sport but I've never understood what possession being granted to the nearest player gains for lax, as opposed to change of possession from the team that throws it out of bounds. Was there a moment where that decision was made in the rules or is this just the organic development of the sport?

Not sure when the decision was made, but with no back wall to the field as in hockey, losing possession simply by missing a shot on goal massively disincentivizes shooting. Plus needing the nearest player to retain possession prevents too much bunching of offense around the crease.

Should also mention that it's only on shots that the nearest player wins. For passes, the last team that touched the ball loses possession. It's up to the ref to decide is a particular throw was a shot or pass.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Swampy (---.163.128.131.dhcp.uri.edu)
Date: May 17, 2018 02:12PM

Trotsky
Tom Lento
Is this one of those things where there are a handful of players good enough to shut Teat down like this?
Seems that way, otherwise you'd always just take your worst player and eliminate their best player, and they'd do the same, and so on...

Sounds like it makes the sport needlessly boring, like allowing a basketball defender to wrap his arms around the legs of LeBron and neutralize him for the entire game. Why not just arrange the rules so gamesmanship of that type is simply deemed interference? "Tradition!"?

Do you mean like basketball before the shot clock, when weaker teams would play keep-away to give themselves a chance?
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Swampy (---.163.128.131.dhcp.uri.edu)
Date: May 17, 2018 02:44PM

A few more comments. Teat is the best passer I've ever seen. But he's not particularly great as a dodger and not exceptionally fast. (Watch videos of him running after an opponent who's running to clear the ball.)

Also compare Rob Pannell's physique (5'9", 190lb) with Jeff Teat's (5'10", 165lb). Rob is an incredible dodger, partly because he's built low to the ground, with a low center of gravity, and yet big enough not to be knocked around easily. I recall seeing a picture of him doing chins, with his legs at a right angle and a huge boat-anchor chain draped across his chest. So obviously he is very strong for his size.

OTOH, Jeff is thinner and does not seem as strong. Obviously at this level, he's an elite athlete. But this time of year he's also going against elite athletes. I think Yale thought having Fake mark him on man-to-man would be sufficient, but apparently not.

I hope Milliman and Teat consult with the best sports trainers so that once the season is over, Jeff can do what's necessary: be in the weight room every day, run stairs every day (with a stick and ball cradled by his right hand), practice shielding the ball against an elite defender or two, and practice his dodging. The goal should be to make him much harder to face guard and much more dangerous when it's done.

If you remember, RP3 played on the 2009 team and made a strong impact, but he took his game to a completely higher level by the time he finished in 2013. He scored 67 points in 2009, 80 in 2010, 89 in 2011, was injured in 2012, and 102 points in 2013. By comparison, JT51 scored 72 points his freshman year (breaking RP3's Cornell freshman scoring record) and currently has 97 points.

By the time Jeff graduates, I want to see him set a pick for a 215 lb defender, and when the two collide it's the defender that falls down.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2018 02:48PM by Swampy.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: upprdeck (---.fs.cornell.edu)
Date: May 17, 2018 02:53PM

if teams couldnt face guard he is probably sitting around 110 pts this season. crazy numbers
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: nshapiro (192.148.195.---)
Date: May 18, 2018 08:06AM

Beeeej
Trotsky
JasonN95
Is Teat starting with the ball from a reset after a shot not a way to use his play strengths? It seems that you could fairly easily manufacture that by taking a deliberately high and wide shot where you first ensure you have the backup for it. Can the officials choose to not give the closest team the ball if they believe the shot was not intended to hit the net, akin to a deliberate offsides call in hockey?
Gotta be some sort of gamesmanship penalty like that, right? Otherwise, the possessing team could just continually drain the clock with their man running behind the defender to the out of bounds line, until the defense cut behind giving the guy a free run at the net.

I'm sure it's just my unfamiliarity with the sport but I've never understood what possession being granted to the nearest player gains for lax, as opposed to change of possession from the team that throws it out of bounds. Was there a moment where that decision was made in the rules or is this just the organic development of the sport?

Not sure when the decision was made, but with no back wall to the field as in hockey, losing possession simply by missing a shot on goal massively disincentivizes shooting. Plus needing the nearest player to retain possession prevents too much bunching of offense around the crease.

Lacrosse historically was played without boundaries, so that when it was adapted to fit in a regulation field, the theory was that the person closest to the end line would have been able to chase down the ball and possess it. Don't ask me why this only applies to shots.

If refs think a team is not seriously trying to score (taking bad shots that are backed up) they can put on the shot clock which requires a shot to be on goal or off the post. Shots that miss do not reset the shot clock.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2018 08:10AM by nshapiro.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Trotsky (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: May 18, 2018 09:59AM

nshapiro
Lacrosse historically was played without boundaries, so that when it was adapted to fit in a regulation field, the theory was that the person closest to the end line would have been able to chase down the ball and possess it. Don't ask me why this only applies to shots.

If refs think a team is not seriously trying to score (taking bad shots that are backed up) they can put on the shot clock which requires a shot to be on goal or off the post. Shots that miss do not reset the shot clock.

That makes sense. Thank you.

Now, personally, I think they should never have stopped using the skull of an enemy.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2018 10:00AM by Trotsky.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Ken711 (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 18, 2018 10:24AM

Swampy
A few more comments. Teat is the best passer I've ever seen. But he's not particularly great as a dodger and not exceptionally fast. (Watch videos of him running after an opponent who's running to clear the ball.)

Also compare Rob Pannell's physique (5'9", 190lb) with Jeff Teat's (5'10", 165lb). Rob is an incredible dodger, partly because he's built low to the ground, with a low center of gravity, and yet big enough not to be knocked around easily. I recall seeing a picture of him doing chins, with his legs at a right angle and a huge boat-anchor chain draped across his chest. So obviously he is very strong for his size.

OTOH, Jeff is thinner and does not seem as strong. Obviously at this level, he's an elite athlete. But this time of year he's also going against elite athletes. I think Yale thought having Fake mark him on man-to-man would be sufficient, but apparently not.

I hope Milliman and Teat consult with the best sports trainers so that once the season is over, Jeff can do what's necessary: be in the weight room every day, run stairs every day (with a stick and ball cradled by his right hand), practice shielding the ball against an elite defender or two, and practice his dodging. The goal should be to make him much harder to face guard and much more dangerous when it's done.

If you remember, RP3 played on the 2009 team and made a strong impact, but he took his game to a completely higher level by the time he finished in 2013. He scored 67 points in 2009, 80 in 2010, 89 in 2011, was injured in 2012, and 102 points in 2013. By comparison, JT51 scored 72 points his freshman year (breaking RP3's Cornell freshman scoring record) and currently has 97 points.

By the time Jeff graduates, I want to see him set a pick for a 215 lb defender, and when the two collide it's the defender that falls down.

Teat reminds me of Eamon McEneaney.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: BigRedHockeyFan (---.phlapa.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 19, 2018 12:32AM

I respect what you guys are saying about Teat beefing up but I like the way he plays now. He is a selfless playmaker. McEneaney is missed by all Cornell alums, funny, creative, extremely hardworking, and ultra successful.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2018 12:32AM by BigRedHockeyFan.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Johnny 5 (---.rochester.res.rr.com)
Date: May 19, 2018 08:01AM



Go Big Red!!

cheer
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: jeff '84 (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: May 19, 2018 01:16PM

Quint’s weekend preview:

[www.insidelacrosse.com]

The video at top is a lengthy highlights package(which has probably been previously posted) of CU-Maryland 1976 championship game.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Trotsky (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 19, 2018 02:51PM

jeff '84
Quint’s weekend preview:

[www.insidelacrosse.com]

The video at top is a lengthy highlights package(which has probably been previously posted) of CU-Maryland 1976 championship game.
That is a great watch; thank you.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Iceberg (---.buffalo.rr.com)
Date: May 19, 2018 05:14PM

Albany/Yale is set for next weekend. Tomorrow's games and the final four will be very interesting.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2018 05:14PM by Iceberg.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Al DeFlorio (---.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
Date: May 20, 2018 07:15AM

Jamie Munro analyzes Jeff Teat's game: [www.youtube.com]

 
___________________________
Al DeFlorio '65
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: mike1960 (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: May 20, 2018 12:29PM

1st quarter. 1-0 Maryland. Great defense, great goalie play on both sides. Teat is working to get open and make a difference. It's going to be a hard, hard game all day, as it should be.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: mike1960 (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: May 20, 2018 01:10PM

Halftime: 6-4 Maryland. Cornell is hanging in there with a couple of great step downs. The Maryland offense is working from the back to the 5X5 and causing serious problems. They scored two unassisted. And when Cornell doubles, they've been excellent at finding the open man in front of the crease. Cornell will have to play their best lacrosse all year the second to win this. They can do it. I have faith!
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: mike1960 (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: May 20, 2018 01:55PM

End of the third quarter. 11-4 Maryland. Maryland pulled away this quarter. They continue to put pressure on the Cornell defense from behind the net to the 5X5. They ran a few wrinkles off of it, including a wide open midfield cutter. Cornell is having problems finding a way to put pressure on the Maryland defense. The alley dodges and throw backs are not working any of the usual magic. Worse, Cornell is not having much success at the face-off.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: mike1960 (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: May 20, 2018 02:27PM

End of the game. 13-8 Maryland. Cornell found some offense with the alley dodge for one goal and throw backs off the alley dodge for step downs and two goals. The Maryland goalie had some problems handling those shots. Overall, Maryland looked like an extremely well coached team on offense, finding the weakness in the Cornell D on the 5X5 and exploiting it all game. The Cornell D sometimes looked uncharacteristically confused with the Maryland attack. Maryland Coach Tillman (Cornell '91) once again proves that he and his iPAd know a thing or two about the game.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: upprdeck (---.syrcny.east.verizon.net)
Date: May 20, 2018 02:45PM

worst game of the year by the D
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: CU77 (---.sb.sd.cox.net)
Date: May 20, 2018 02:58PM

Fantastic season for the Big Red. No one outside the team expected anything like this level of success.

To play the #1 seed and defending national champs in their back yard in the NCAA quarterfinals, and not come out with the win, is hardly a knock.

Peter Milliman turned this team totally around. He deserves an immediate long-term contract.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: RichH (173.239.198.---)
Date: May 21, 2018 01:21AM

CU77
Peter Milliman turned this team totally around. He deserves an immediate long-term contract.

Broadcast team said as much at the end of the game.

Maryland is a great team. It's hard to mount a comeback when you can't get possession. Few mistakes by M and a distinct advantage at face-off made that so.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Trotsky (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 21, 2018 06:59AM

upprdeck
worst game of the year by the D
Makes sense. Defending national champ and #1 will do that.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: upprdeck (---.fs.cornell.edu)
Date: May 21, 2018 09:20AM

have to fix the X and figure how to handle the shut off.. Maryland used their #3 defender to slow Cornell down..
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Jim Hyla (---.239.191.68.cl.cstel.com)
Date: May 22, 2018 07:40AM

upprdeck
have to fix the X and figure how to handle the shut off.. Maryland used their #3 defender to slow Cornell down..

Best coaching at face-guarding yet. Why burn your top defense if all you're going to do is run around with the offensive player?

 
___________________________
"Cornell Fans Made the Timbers Tremble", Boston Globe, March/1970
Cornell lawyers stopped the candy throwing. Jan/2005
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: upprdeck (---.fs.cornell.edu)
Date: May 22, 2018 12:00PM

he needs to get stronger, so he can take these guys when under pressure.. great hands dont help if you cant get free
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Trotsky (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: May 22, 2018 12:28PM

If faceguarding was unsolvable it would have been used to erase every great player for the last forty years, so either we are responding with the wrong tactics or Teat isn't able to thwart it the way other great players have.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: Swampy (---.163.128.131.dhcp.uri.edu)
Date: May 22, 2018 01:31PM

If you watched the post-game show on TV, I think it was QK, who said something even more to point. It was something like, "When Ben Reeves is on the field he's the best athlete on the field, but if you look at today's game, Jeff Teat is nowhere near the best athlete on the field."

This implies that solving the SOT strategy has to start with Jeff himself. There are 8 months before lacrosse season starts again, and he needs to be in the weight room and running every day between now and then. Look to add about 10-15 lbs of muscle, bench-press twice his weight, and get his time for 100 yds under 10.0 sec. He also needs to practice dodging, going both to the left and right of the defender.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: mike1960 (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: May 22, 2018 01:51PM

Swampy
If you watched the post-game show on TV, I think it was QK, who said something even more to point. It was something like, "When Ben Reeves is on the field he's the best athlete on the field, but if you look at today's game, Jeff Teat is nowhere near the best athlete on the field."

This implies that solving the SOT strategy has to start with Jeff himself. There are 8 months before lacrosse season starts again, and he needs to be in the weight room and running every day between now and then. Look to add about 10-15 lbs of muscle, bench-press twice his weight, and get his time for 100 yds under 10.0 sec. He also needs to practice dodging, going both to the left and right of the defender.

That will undoubtedly help but Trotsky is right in my view: a major problem is tactics. Let me just say, Peter Milliman knows more about lacrosse than I will if I live to be 500, but turning your best offense player into a spectator when the other team faceguards does not seem to be the right strategy. After Princeton, the offensive production went down 40 percent or more with the five-man attack absent Teat. At some point, you'd hope Coach would say, Ok, we tried it. It didn't work as well as we thought. We'll try something else.

In the NBA, for example, face guarding is just par for the course. Stephen Curry is faceguarded all the time. That's why he has to work so hard to get open on most offensive sets. He doesn't get open because he bulks up. He gets open because of 1) designed sets and 2) hard work on his part.
 
Re: Cornell lacrosse 2018
Posted by: BearLover (---.sub-174-203-2.myvzw.com)
Date: May 22, 2018 03:07PM

Yes, I don't quite understand what bulking up has to do with getting the ball in the first place. Is it that the Teat should be outmuscling the faceguarding D to get into open position? It seems a better way to do it is to cut away from him. Can you set picks for someone who doesn't have the ball?

The fact Cornell's offensive production decreased considerably without Teat in the offense means the coaching staff should have done more to incorporate him, unless for some reason Teat himself was incapable of whatever needed to be done to get open.
 
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