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Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?

Posted by CAS 
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Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: February 14, 2016 09:27AM

Discuss amongst yourselves...
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: scoop85 (---.sub-70-215-4.myvzw.com)
Date: February 14, 2016 09:31AM

Consider where we were in 2010 across the board compared with now. Perhaps it is time for a change at the top.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: February 14, 2016 11:21AM

Uncompetitive football, perennial loser in basketball, and deteriorating results in historically successful programs. Is there any accountability for performance?
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: BearLover (---.nycmny.east.verizon.net)
Date: February 14, 2016 01:07PM

Yes
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.nyc.res.rr.com)
Date: February 14, 2016 02:58PM

The ship be sinking?
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Trotsky (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: February 14, 2016 05:07PM

CAS
The ship be sinking?

Yup.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Ken711 (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 15, 2016 05:22PM

If not housekeeping, than at least an outside evaluation of the athletic department performance similar what Columbia U. undertook.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: dbilmes (32.218.125.---)
Date: February 16, 2016 11:04AM

Getting the athletics program back on track probably won't be on the administration's front burner any time soon. Not only is President Garrett getting treated for cancer, but the uproar over the formation of a new business college made the front page of today's New York Times.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: underskill (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 16, 2016 11:11AM

I don't see what a new AD would do differently, unless they're prepared to invest a lot of money on big name coaches for football and basketball.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: February 16, 2016 12:07PM

Don't agree we can't do better than 5-25 in football and 26-52 in basketball. Prior 2 years under Austin in football we were 9-11. Prior 6 years in Ivy basketball under Donahue we were 63-21.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2016 12:12PM by CAS.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: upprdeck (---.fs.cornell.edu)
Date: February 16, 2016 12:30PM

How about we get a group of trustees that care about sports first, then worry about an AD and replacing coaches.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Ken711 (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 16, 2016 12:34PM

It's not only just coaches. It's also facilities and admissions policy streamlining. Those are other areas that a comprehensive examination of Cornell athletics could provide.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: underskill (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 16, 2016 12:36PM

CAS
Don't agree we can't do better than 5-25 in football and 26-52 in basketball. Prior 2 years under Austin in football we were 9-11. Prior 6 years in Ivy basketball under Donahue we were 63-21.

well, that assumes another Donahue situation is possible. Certainly in football, it seems like the program is comparatively underfunded. 5-25 vs. 9-11 isn't drastically different if that's all you're shooting for.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: February 16, 2016 03:00PM

Not satisfied with 9-11 in football - want to compete for titles. But Austin's last 2 years are a far cry from consecutive 1-9 records. If alums care about fielding competitive teams, it's far more likely the trustees and administration will as well.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Towerroad (---.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 17, 2016 08:08AM

CAS
Not satisfied with 9-11 in football - want to compete for titles. But Austin's last 2 years are a far cry from consecutive 1-9 records. If alums care about fielding competitive teams, it's far more likely the trustees and administration will as well.

While I agree that a good housecleaning is in order, we should look at the bright side. For better and worse, mostly better, the athletics dept does not run the university. Cornell is a school where academics are clearly a priority over athletics which is a claim that cannot be made at a lot of schools with big time football and basketball programs. Yes it would be nice if our football team did not suck but at the end of the day when I write my check every year it is not impacted by the results of the athletics programs.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.nyc.res.rr.com)
Date: February 17, 2016 08:54AM

It's possible to have both academic and athletic excellence. Look at Harvard's recent football and basketball run. Is there a reason we can't compete with other Ivies in football and basketball?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2016 08:54AM by CAS.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: billhoward (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 17, 2016 12:02PM

CAS
It's possible to have both academic and athletic excellence. Look at Harvard's recent football and basketball run. Is there a reason we can't compete with other Ivies in football and basketball?
There's an Ivy Eight Presidents' agreement: We don't mess with the rest of the league in football or (most years) basketball and swimming, and they leave us alone in wrestling and (most years) hockey and lacrosse. The agreement doesn't cover track & field or baseball; that's open still. Were this New Orleans, Harvard gets the hookers, Princeton gets the drug trade, and Cornell gets the gambling dens.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Swampy (---.ri.ri.cox.net)
Date: February 17, 2016 02:17PM

billhoward
CAS
It's possible to have both academic and athletic excellence. Look at Harvard's recent football and basketball run. Is there a reason we can't compete with other Ivies in football and basketball?
There's an Ivy Eight Presidents' agreement: We don't mess with the rest of the league in football or (most years) basketball and swimming, and they leave us alone in wrestling and (most years) hockey and lacrosse. The agreement doesn't cover track & field or baseball; that's open still. Were this New Orleans, Harvard gets the hookers, Princeton gets the drug trade, and Cornell gets the gambling dens.

Bill, have you noticed? Yale & Harvard have already taken one of our gambling dens: the one that's traditionally been our main source of psychic revenue. And after last spring and losses to graduation, don't hold your breath this spring for the other major one. Looks as if of the three dens you mention, we're going to be hanging on to only the smallest, least popular, most arcane one.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.sub-70-214-99.myvzw.com)
Date: February 17, 2016 02:33PM

Totally agree Swampy. In the words of The Donald, we don't win anymore.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: scoop85 (---.hvc.res.rr.com)
Date: February 19, 2016 09:06PM

So far tonight:

Men's hoops -- home loss to Dartmouth
Women's hoops -- road loss at Dartmouth
Women's hockey -- 1-0 win over Dartmouth
Men's hockey losing 2-1 at Harvard
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: RichH (---.hsd1.ct.comcast.net)
Date: February 19, 2016 09:52PM

scoop85
So far tonight:

Men's hoops -- home loss to Dartmouth
Women's hoops -- road loss at Dartmouth
Women's hockey -- 1-0 win over Dartmouth
Men's hockey losing 2-1 at Harvard

Wrestling is all that matters, silly.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: shasta1 (---.fltg.net)
Date: February 20, 2016 10:37AM

In my opinion cornell athletics got the most national recognition for the sweet 16 run. If the administration had any basic common sense they would give men's basketball the most admissions slots to allow them to build the program with a NEW coaching staff. Let's face it, with the exception of hockey and lacrosse no other sports get any national recognition! However as noted, Andy only really cares about the wrestling program and they break a ton of NCAA rules for that one.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Scersk '97 (---.hsd1.ct.comcast.net)
Date: February 20, 2016 12:26PM

shasta1
In my opinion cornell athletics got the most national recognition for the sweet 16 run.

"Recognition…" Hunh. I bet you love the kiss cam and the dance cam…

It's about competitiveness, championships, and good experiences for student-athletes. We can be competitive in both hockey and lacrosse, we win championships (even having a chance at national championships), and both programs really sit at the center of the Cornell student and student-athlete experience. Our traditional strengths are where investments should be made.

The Ivy League made a difficult but responsible decision regarding athletic scholarships some time ago, which made it impossible to compete against all the money and hype associated with football and makes it impossible to compete with the same in basketball. Why pour money into a crooked game played on a severely tilted court? I'd love to see basketball de-emphasized just as much as football has been—it's a fool's game.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: scoop85 (---.hvc.res.rr.com)
Date: February 20, 2016 02:11PM

Scersk '97
shasta1
In my opinion cornell athletics got the most national recognition for the sweet 16 run.

"Recognition…" Hunh. I bet you love the kiss cam and the dance cam…

It's about competitiveness, championships, and good experiences for student-athletes. We can be competitive in both hockey and lacrosse, we win championships (even having a chance at national championships), and both programs really sit at the center of the Cornell student and student-athlete experience. Our traditional strengths are where investments should be made.

The Ivy League made a difficult but responsible decision regarding athletic scholarships some time ago, which made it impossible to compete against all the money and hype associated with football and makes it impossible to compete with the same in basketball. Why pour money into a crooked game played on a severely tilted court? I'd love to see basketball de-emphasized just as much as football has been—it's a fool's game.

However, Ivy League basketball has gone the other direction -- better recruits and more competitive nationally over the past decade. Whether that makes sense in the grand scheme of things I cannot say.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: marty (---.nycap.res.rr.com)
Date: February 20, 2016 02:33PM

shasta1
However as noted, Andy only really cares about the wrestling program and they break a ton of NCAA rules for that one.

Please list five or more examples that prove or disprove this thesis. Cite sources as necessary and be advised that more weight will be given to objective arguments. One hour time limit please. Be sure to sign the attestation.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Scersk '97 (---.hsd1.ct.comcast.net)
Date: February 20, 2016 03:02PM

scoop85
However, Ivy League basketball has gone the other direction -- better recruits and more competitive nationally over the past decade. Whether that makes sense in the grand scheme of things I cannot say.

To my mind, if "more competitive nationally" means a sweet 16 appearance once every forever-and-a-while, what's the point? Let the athletic factories have their playground…
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
Date: February 20, 2016 03:06PM

The problem is we are uncompetitive in football and basketball with the other Ivies, none of whom are national powers. I don't expect us to compete with Bama & Kentucky.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2016 03:13PM by CAS.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Scersk '97 (---.hsd1.ct.comcast.net)
Date: February 20, 2016 04:30PM

CAS
The problem is we are uncompetitive in football and basketball with the other Ivies, none of whom are national powers. I don't expect us to compete with Bama & Kentucky.

Given the history of Ivy League football, I understand its cultural centricity during the fall. I'd like us to be competitive with the other Ivies in football as well.

But basketball? Whatever. Let the other Ivies chase the spurious honors involved with the national hype machine.

It's cold in Ithaca: let hockey forever remain a marker for our cultural difference.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2016 04:31PM by Scersk '97.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Ken711 (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 20, 2016 09:07PM

CAS
The problem is we are uncompetitive in football and basketball with the other Ivies, none of whom are national powers. I don't expect us to compete with Bama & Kentucky.

Couldn't agree more. If Cornell can't even achieve a winning percentage in football and basketball, let alone compete for the Ivy Championship, we are doing a disservice to the student athletes.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: ugarte (---.res.bhn.net)
Date: February 20, 2016 10:46PM

CAS
It's possible to have both academic and athletic excellence. Look at Harvard's recent football and basketball run. Is there a reason we can't compete with other Ivies in football and basketball?
Cornell is going to fall behind H/Y/P in athletics because we are behind H/Y/P in financial aid guarantees. It isn't athletic scholarships that are going to do us in, it's regular old financial aid. Being able to guarantee a full ride to middle class kids (actual middle class, not responds-to-a-survey-"I am middle class"-middle class) is a huge advantage in recruiting.

 
___________________________
Jokes and stuff

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2016 10:47PM by ugarte.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: marty (---.nycap.res.rr.com)
Date: February 21, 2016 07:34AM

ugarte
CAS
It's possible to have both academic and athletic excellence. Look at Harvard's recent football and basketball run. Is there a reason we can't compete with other Ivies in football and basketball?
Cornell is going to fall behind H/Y/P in athletics because we are behind H/Y/P in financial aid guarantees. It isn't athletic scholarships that are going to do us in, it's regular old financial aid. Being able to guarantee a full ride to middle class kids (actual middle class, not responds-to-a-survey-"I am middle class"-middle class) is a huge advantage in recruiting.

This translates into unlimited athletic scholarships for much of the middle class.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Swampy (---.ri.ri.cox.net)
Date: February 21, 2016 08:32AM

marty
ugarte
CAS
It's possible to have both academic and athletic excellence. Look at Harvard's recent football and basketball run. Is there a reason we can't compete with other Ivies in football and basketball?
Cornell is going to fall behind H/Y/P in athletics because we are behind H/Y/P in financial aid guarantees. It isn't athletic scholarships that are going to do us in, it's regular old financial aid. Being able to guarantee a full ride to middle class kids (actual middle class, not responds-to-a-survey-"I am middle class"-middle class) is a huge advantage in recruiting.

This translates into unlimited athletic scholarships for much of the middle class.

An expensive idea perhaps, but is it a bad one?

Related: Bernie Sanders is proposing that all public higher education be made free. Presumably this will come through federal subsidies. Whether or not Sanders is elected, if this idea carried the day in this election or a subsequent one, how might tuition at the private land grants be affected?

Cornell's relation to New York state is through contracts. I'm not sure what MIT's is. Are there any other private land grants?
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Towerroad (---.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 21, 2016 08:57AM

Swampy
marty
ugarte
CAS
It's possible to have both academic and athletic excellence. Look at Harvard's recent football and basketball run. Is there a reason we can't compete with other Ivies in football and basketball?
Cornell is going to fall behind H/Y/P in athletics because we are behind H/Y/P in financial aid guarantees. It isn't athletic scholarships that are going to do us in, it's regular old financial aid. Being able to guarantee a full ride to middle class kids (actual middle class, not responds-to-a-survey-"I am middle class"-middle class) is a huge advantage in recruiting.

This translates into unlimited athletic scholarships for much of the middle class.

An expensive idea perhaps, but is it a bad one?

Related: Bernie Sanders is proposing that all public higher education be made free. Presumably this will come through federal subsidies. Whether or not Sanders is elected, if this idea carried the day in this election or a subsequent one, how might tuition at the private land grants be affected?

Cornell's relation to New York state is through contracts. I'm not sure what MIT's is. Are there any other private land grants?

[www.quora.com]
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Jim Hyla (---.syrcny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 22, 2016 08:02AM

ugarte
CAS
It's possible to have both academic and athletic excellence. Look at Harvard's recent football and basketball run. Is there a reason we can't compete with other Ivies in football and basketball?
Cornell is going to fall behind H/Y/P in athletics because we are behind H/Y/P in financial aid guarantees. It isn't athletic scholarships that are going to do us in, it's regular old financial aid. Being able to guarantee a full ride to middle class kids (actual middle class, not responds-to-a-survey-"I am middle class"-middle class) is a huge advantage in recruiting.

I thought we agreed to match any offer from other Ivies? I don't know what that actually means, any one out there to help me?

 
___________________________
"Cornell Fans Made the Timbers Tremble", Boston Globe, March/1970
Cornell lawyers stopped the candy throwing. Jan/2005
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: February 22, 2016 08:43AM

Yes Cornell has a policy where it matches the financial aid award for admitted students who are accepted to other Ivies. So if Cornell and Harvard both admit someone, Cornell will match the Harvard financial aid award.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Trotsky (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: February 22, 2016 08:51AM

CAS
Yes Cornell has a policy where it matches the financial aid award for admitted students who are accepted to other Ivies. So if Cornell and Harvard both admit someone, Cornell will match the Harvard financial aid award.
How do we know the Harvard package? Do we send our admittee a coupon that reads "just bring your Harvard aid letter to the Bursar and we will meet the terms"?

It also seems backwards. Yes, an admittee to both might choose based on an aid discrepancy if it favored Cornell, but I don't think many* are choosing Harvard on the basis of "well, I was accepted at Cornell too, but they didn't give me a comparable aid package."

*Exceptions include engineers and medievalists.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2016 11:31AM by Trotsky.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: upprdeck (---.fs.cornell.edu)
Date: February 22, 2016 11:11AM

interesting in that kids we cant get admitted though end up at other ivies for sports though..
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Trotsky (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: February 22, 2016 11:35AM

upprdeck
interesting in that kids we cant get admitted though end up at other ivies for sports though..
Every school says this about its more academically competitive opponents. It may happen, but when I hear it I tend to think it's our equivalent of "well, BC / William & Mary / Rutgers (Rutgers?!?!) was invited to be in the Ivies, but we turned them down." ;-)

I have a feeling the students who are rejected by Cornell but accepted by HYP are legacies, not athletes.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2016 11:36AM by Trotsky.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: February 22, 2016 01:33PM

The bottom line is with our ability to match the fin'l aid awards of every Ivy, aid is not the reason we are uncompetitive in football & basketball.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Ken711 (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 22, 2016 04:52PM

CAS
The bottom line is with our ability to match the fin'l aid awards of every Ivy, aid is not the reason we are uncompetitive in football & basketball.

Which goes to my point of other factors besides coaching, facilities, admission policies/streamling and recruiting budget. Factors that an outside examination of the athletic department performance could make recommendations on.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: February 22, 2016 05:55PM

Agree - the athletic dept needs an intervention. Also some passionate Cornell lax posters are livid with the current state of that program. Check out the Cornell thread on Laxpower.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2016 06:17PM by CAS.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Johnny 5 (209.68.90.---)
Date: February 23, 2016 10:30AM

CAS
Agree - the athletic dept needs an intervention. Also some passionate Cornell lax posters are livid with the current state of that program. Check out the Cornell thread on Laxpower.

Please, pardon the repeat......



bang
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept? - Yale
Posted by: billhoward (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 23, 2016 12:18PM

Meanwhile over at Yale, the NY Times points out that Yale hasn't won an Ivy League basketball title outright since 1962, something that even Cornell has done. Maybe housecleaning should have been in order in New Haven? Yale Banishes Demons. Next Are Tigers and Lions.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept? - Yale
Posted by: scoop85 (---.nyc.biz.rr.com)
Date: February 23, 2016 04:28PM

billhoward
Meanwhile over at Yale, the NY Times points out that Yale hasn't won an Ivy League basketball title outright since 1962, something that even Cornell has done. Maybe housecleaning should have been in order in New Haven? Yale Banishes Demons. Next Are Tigers and Lions.

Yeah, but they won a national championship in hockey a couple of years ago, and have been consistently strong in lacrosse and basketball, and decent in football, the past 5 years or so.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept? - Yale
Posted by: RichH (134.223.116.---)
Date: February 23, 2016 05:41PM

billhoward
Meanwhile over at Yale, the NY Times points out that Yale hasn't won an Ivy League basketball title outright since 1962, something that even Cornell has done. Maybe housecleaning should have been in order in New Haven? Yale Banishes Demons. Next Are Tigers and Lions.

I don't judge the success of an athletic department by the performance of a single sport, like our AD does with wrestling.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept? - Yale
Posted by: KeithK (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: February 23, 2016 06:46PM

RichH
billhoward
Meanwhile over at Yale, the NY Times points out that Yale hasn't won an Ivy League basketball title outright since 1962, something that even Cornell has done. Maybe housecleaning should have been in order in New Haven? Yale Banishes Demons. Next Are Tigers and Lions.

I don't judge the success of an athletic department by the performance of a single sport, like our AD does with wrestling.
He doesn't judge based on just one sport. Each weight class is like an entirely different sport!
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept? - Yale
Posted by: RichH (134.223.116.---)
Date: February 23, 2016 06:52PM

billhoward
the NY Times points out that Yale hasn't won an Ivy League basketball title outright since 1962

A quarter of the league has gone longer without winning an outright title.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Ken711 (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 24, 2016 11:51AM

Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: dbilmes (32.218.122.---)
Date: February 24, 2016 03:19PM

Interesting Guest Column in The Cornell Sun. These were my thoughts after reading it:
I would find it hard to believe that Cornell would be kicked out of the Ivy League if it dropped its football program. While football may have been the driving force behind the formation of the Ivy League, few, if any, people associate football with the Ivy League in 2016. The Ivy League has come to represent a group of elite schools, which all rank among the best in the country. If you look at the official Ivy League Rules it says nothing about schools being required to have a varsity football program.
Cornell is not the only Ivy League school with attendance problems. Even Yale, with a much stronger football tradition, draws relatively small crowds for any games that don't involve Harvard. For example, I watched the Yale-Columbia game this past year that had an announced crowd of approximately 7,000 in the cavernous Yale Bowl. And even this year's Yale-Harvard game wasn't close to being a sellout.
Most Cornell students don't care about the football program, and dropping the sport may influence alumni donations, but it would have little to no impact on the caliber of students applying to Cornell each year.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: February 24, 2016 04:28PM

I don't share all the pessimism we can't compete in football. We had winning programs throughout the '90s. We were on the right track under Coach Austin. With the right coach and institutional support, why can't we compete? Perhaps we should drop basketball too, given the current state of that program.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: underskill (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 24, 2016 04:50PM

CAS
I don't share all the pessimism we can't compete in football. We had winning programs throughout the '90s. We were on the right track under Coach Austin. With the right coach and institutional support, why can't we compete? Perhaps we should drop basketball too, given the current state of that program.

Basketball costs a lot less to run as a program and doesn't require a retrofit on a stadium.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Ken711 (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 24, 2016 05:19PM

CAS
I don't share all the pessimism we can't compete in football. We had winning programs throughout the '90s. We were on the right track under Coach Austin. With the right coach and institutional support, why can't we compete? Perhaps we should drop basketball too, given the current state of that program.

We can compete and should compete, but it takes action from the trustees to the President to the AD to honestly face the current state of the football program and develop a plan of action to fix it.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Trotsky (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: February 24, 2016 08:25PM

It would cost a ton, but if we devoted comparable resources to HYP we would probably dominate the Ivies in football. It is the best sport for us to use our admissions advantages.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: KeithK (---.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
Date: February 24, 2016 09:33PM

Trotsky
It would cost a ton, but if we devoted comparable resources to HYP we would probably dominate the Ivies in football. It is the best sport for us to use our admissions advantages.
What advantage does it bring to the University to dominate Ivy football? It's not like we'd ever get any national exposure for it. (Heck, we can't even play in the 1AA playoffs, or whatever it's called now, which hardly anyone cares about.) It's not going to do anything to encourage more or better applicants. I can't imagine the trustees wanting to invest heavily in the sport. (Or even a little bit of investment.)
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Ken711 (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 25, 2016 09:40AM

Trotsky
It would cost a ton, but if we devoted comparable resources to HYP we would probably dominate the Ivies in football. It is the best sport for us to use our admissions advantages.

Cost a ton? How so? Upgrades to athletic facilities would benefit all sports.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: upprdeck (---.fs.cornell.edu)
Date: February 25, 2016 10:39AM

is wrestling self funded like other sports?
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: February 25, 2016 11:11AM

The physical condition of Schoellkopf can't be good for the lacrosse program, which also plays there
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Trotsky (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: February 25, 2016 12:05PM

Ken711
Trotsky
It would cost a ton, but if we devoted comparable resources to HYP we would probably dominate the Ivies in football. It is the best sport for us to use our admissions advantages.

Cost a ton? How so? Upgrades to athletic facilities would benefit all sports.
I was referring to refurbing Schoelkopf. From what I understand the cross-sport facilities (weights and conditioning, etc) are state of the art.

It would be interesting to try to estimate whether Ivy football is cost effective even if you're running a winning program, by trying to piece together the data from say Penn's run. On the one hand, there are still the Monty Burns types who the school fellates for donations, and football is appealing to those elderly alums who actually distantly remember when Ivy football was not a national joke. On the other hand, we might be able to parlay "the only Ivy serious enough about academics to not carry a football team" into some sort of snobbish cache in the same way the conference as a whole does by its "ban" on athletic scholarships.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Towerroad (---.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 25, 2016 04:28PM

Trotsky
Ken711
Trotsky
It would cost a ton, but if we devoted comparable resources to HYP we would probably dominate the Ivies in football. It is the best sport for us to use our admissions advantages.

Cost a ton? How so? Upgrades to athletic facilities would benefit all sports.
I was referring to refurbing Schoelkopf. From what I understand the cross-sport facilities (weights and conditioning, etc) are state of the art.

It would be interesting to try to estimate whether Ivy football is cost effective even if you're running a winning program, by trying to piece together the data from say Penn's run. On the one hand, there are still the Monty Burns types who the school fellates for donations, and football is appealing to those elderly alums who actually distantly remember when Ivy football was not a national joke. On the other hand, we might be able to parlay "the only Ivy serious enough about academics to not carry a football team" into some sort of snobbish cache in the same way the conference as a whole does by its "ban" on athletic scholarships.

Last year football had a total attendance of about 40,000. At $10/ticket that is $400,000. It is hard to argue that the gate is a meaningful contributor to the economic picture.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: billhoward (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 25, 2016 04:45PM

KeithK
Trotsky
It would cost a ton, but if we devoted comparable resources to HYP we would probably dominate the Ivies in football. It is the best sport for us to use our admissions advantages.
What advantage does it bring to the University to dominate Ivy football? It's not like we'd ever get any national exposure for it. (Heck, we can't even play in the 1AA playoffs, or whatever it's called now, which hardly anyone cares about.) It's not going to do anything to encourage more or better applicants. I can't imagine the trustees wanting to invest heavily in the sport. (Or even a little bit of investment.)
Costs about the same to have the first place team in football and the seventh place team.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.nyc.res.rr.com)
Date: February 25, 2016 07:14PM

With lower fundraising and ticket sales, it's more costly to finish 7th (or 8th) than 1st.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.nyc.res.rr.com)
Date: February 26, 2016 11:08PM

Basketball lost its 7th straight, falling to Penn 79-67.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.nyc.res.rr.com)
Date: February 27, 2016 08:28AM

According to 247sports.com, Columbia football under Al Bagnoli has recruited the 3rd best recruiting class in the FCS. Really. 5 Ivy schools are listed in the top 25 classes. Cornell is not one of them. Also Steve Donahue has Penn basketball on the rise. After a 4-10 Ivy record last year, they are 5-5 this year. Cornell is now 2-9 in the league. Shows what's possible with the right coach...
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: shasta1 (---.fltg.net)
Date: February 27, 2016 09:23AM

The ONLY sport at CU that actually generates revenue is Men's Hockey...several teams like men's bball get guaranteed money when they play big name schools, so the team makes out well playing upper level DI schools. Why alumn continue to give to such a pathetic team like football is beyond me. Men's basketball is right up there, even with marginal students on the roster...meaning many of the better players would not have gotten in on their own. The entire administration in the athletic department needs to be looked at...including Anita Brenner/Amy Foster/Larry Quant.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: scoop85 (---.hvc.res.rr.com)
Date: February 27, 2016 09:28AM

shasta1
The ONLY sport at CU that actually generates revenue is Men's Hockey...several teams like men's bball get guaranteed money when they play big name schools, so the team makes out well playing upper level DI schools. Why alumn continue to give to such a pathetic team like football is beyond me. Men's basketball is right up there, even with marginal students on the roster...meaning many of the better players would not have gotten in on their own. The entire administration in the athletic department needs to be looked at...including Anita Brenner/Amy Foster/Larry Quant.

I don't disagree that the department needs a housecleaning, but the reality is that many athletes in the "big" sports, not just in basketball, get a significant boost in admissions by virtue of their athletic ability.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: TimV (---.nycap.res.rr.com)
Date: February 27, 2016 06:47PM

scoop85
...the reality is that many athletes in the "big" sports, not just in basketball, get a significant boost in admissions by virtue of their athletic ability.

True, equally so at all the Ivy schools, even more so at Duke, Stanford,and Michigan. But almost all at Cornell stay in school and earn their degree. So what?

 
___________________________
"Yo Paulie - I don't see no crowd gathering 'round you neither."
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Ken711 (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: February 27, 2016 08:48PM

CAS
According to 247sports.com, Columbia football under Al Bagnoli has recruited the 3rd best recruiting class in the FCS. Really. 5 Ivy schools are listed in the top 25 classes. Cornell is not one of them. Also Steve Donahue has Penn basketball on the rise. After a 4-10 Ivy record last year, they are 5-5 this year. Cornell is now 2-9 in the league. Shows what's possible with the right coach...

They are going to make great strides in a short time with the talent they are bringing in. That doesn't even include some impact transfers from FBS schools they are reported to be getting.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: scoop85 (---.hvc.res.rr.com)
Date: February 27, 2016 10:46PM

TimV
scoop85
...the reality is that many athletes in the "big" sports, not just in basketball, get a significant boost in admissions by virtue of their athletic ability.

True, equally so at all the Ivy schools, even more so at Duke, Stanford,and Michigan. But almost all at Cornell stay in school and earn their degree. So what?

I was simply responding to Shasta1's post that impugned the academic credentials of some of the basketball players by pointing out that the "relaxation" of admission standards was not limited to that sport
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Swampy (---.ri.ri.cox.net)
Date: February 29, 2016 12:47PM

Some outstanding schools do just fine without DI athletics, esp. football. MIT & U of Chicago come to mind.

Even most schools in big time conferences don't make money from sports.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Trotsky (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: February 29, 2016 01:02PM

MIT reinstated football about 20 years ago.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Swampy (---.ri.ri.cox.net)
Date: February 29, 2016 02:07PM

Trotsky
MIT reinstated football about 20 years ago.

I thought MIT plays D-III.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Trotsky (---.dc.dc.cox.net)
Date: February 29, 2016 02:12PM

Swampy
Trotsky
MIT reinstated football about 20 years ago.

I thought MIT plays D-III.
Misread you. I thought you were saying no football at all (which was the case at MIT for a long time).
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: David Harding (---.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
Date: March 01, 2016 09:06AM

Trotsky
Swampy
Trotsky
MIT reinstated football about 20 years ago.

I thought MIT plays D-III.
Misread you. I thought you were saying no football at all (which was the case at MIT for a long time).
Chicago also has a football team. Thjey've played in D III since 1973. Caltech, on the other hand, has only a club team.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: ugarte (---.177.169.163.IPYX-102276-ZYO.zip.zayo.com)
Date: March 02, 2016 01:38PM

Swampy
Some outstanding schools do just fine without DI athletics, esp. football. MIT & U of Chicago come to mind.

Even most schools in big time conferences don't make money from sports.
This is true only if you accept that the Hollywood accounting is reasonable no matter what Politifact says. Between pro-level facilities, administrative bureaucracies and seven-figure coaching salaries, yeah, that revenue gets eaten up.

 
___________________________
Jokes and stuff
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Swampy (131.128.163.---)
Date: March 02, 2016 02:41PM

ugarte
Swampy
Some outstanding schools do just fine without DI athletics, esp. football. MIT & U of Chicago come to mind.

Even most schools in big time conferences don't make money from sports.
This is true only if you accept that the Hollywood accounting is reasonable no matter what Politifact says. Between pro-level facilities, administrative bureaucracies and seven-figure coaching salaries, yeah, that revenue gets eaten up.

Excellent point! Do you know of any studies that assume, for example, coaches and athletic staff would be paid as little as professors?
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Trotsky (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: March 02, 2016 05:28PM

David Harding
Trotsky
Swampy
Trotsky
MIT reinstated football about 20 years ago.

I thought MIT plays D-III.
Misread you. I thought you were saying no football at all (which was the case at MIT for a long time).
Chicago also has a football team. Thjey've played in D III since 1973.

In 20's and 30's movies that have a college football scene the teams that always come up are Army, Cornell, and Chicago.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: billhoward (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: March 02, 2016 08:07PM

Trotsky
In 20's and 30's movies that have a college football scene the teams that always come up are Army, Cornell, and Chicago.
Chicago drops football and now its motto is, "Where fun goes to die."
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Swampy (---.ri.ri.cox.net)
Date: March 02, 2016 11:05PM

Trotsky
David Harding
Trotsky
Swampy
Trotsky
MIT reinstated football about 20 years ago.

I thought MIT plays D-III.
Misread you. I thought you were saying no football at all (which was the case at MIT for a long time).
Chicago also has a football team. Thjey've played in D III since 1973.

In 20's and 30's movies that have a college football scene the teams that always come up are Army, Cornell, and Chicago.

Where have you gone, Glenn Warner?
Big Red nation turns its lonely eyes to you. (Woo, woo, woo)
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: March 10, 2016 11:59PM

The Daily Sun has a story on the destruction of the west stands at Schoellkopf. There's no mention of any plans to build a replacement.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: KeithK (---.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
Date: March 11, 2016 12:59AM

Given recent events I'm pretty sure housecleaning in the athletic department is pretty low on the priority list for the Trustees at the moment.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: upprdeck (---.fs.cornell.edu)
Date: March 11, 2016 08:05AM

there was some internal discussion about SU coming back to cornell for a fball game if the dome is closed for a year as expected. cant see that now with the capacity the field has now
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: marty (---.nycap.res.rr.com)
Date: March 12, 2016 04:47AM

upprdeck
there was some internal discussion about SU coming back to cornell for a fball game if the dome is closed for a year as expected. cant see that now with the capacity the field has now

Well that's a blessing. Is there any reason that Cornell would welcome such an invasion?
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: March 12, 2016 07:14AM

It is shocking the university chose to destroy the west stands, rather than fix or replace them. It's reflective of the crumbling state of some our most visible athletic programs.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: RichH (107.77.106.---)
Date: March 12, 2016 08:51AM

marty
upprdeck
there was some internal discussion about SU coming back to cornell for a fball game if the dome is closed for a year as expected. cant see that now with the capacity the field has now

Well that's a blessing. Is there any reason that Cornell would welcome such an invasion?

I don't know, offhand, I'd $ay that mayb $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: upprdeck (---.syrcny.east.verizon.net)
Date: March 12, 2016 12:36PM

cornell did ie before when the dome was built and it was a crazy success. lots of locals root for SU that dont make the drive normally.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Ken711 (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: March 12, 2016 08:12PM

CAS
It is shocking the university chose to destroy the west stands, rather than fix or replace them. It's reflective of the crumbling state of some our most visible athletic programs.

The article in the Cornell Sun said from disuse and disrepair. How they could let neglect the maintenance on their facilities is a puzzeling.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: dag14 (---.twcny.res.rr.com)
Date: March 12, 2016 09:42PM

You have to have money to maintain your facilities. Athletics has to prioritize. The west stands apparently are not a priority.

In their [partial] defense, I seem to recall that an inspection turned up more problems than Athletics believed existed and the stands were condemned as a result. So they would have been required to make a major investment when they had not planned for it. I assume no donor came forward to cover the bill so demolition was the alternative.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: upprdeck (---.syrcny.east.verizon.net)
Date: March 13, 2016 06:29PM

millions were spent on fixing the old concrete stands so it was not available to fix the west stands.. much more important to spend money on Statues for the 150 and small bear cub
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Ken711 (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: March 13, 2016 07:07PM

My understanding is they will be working on a long-range plan for the west stands site with the expectation that there will be stands constructed over a mixed-used athletic space housing a weight-room, locker room and athletic offices.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: KeithK (---.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
Date: March 14, 2016 03:25AM

Ken711
My understanding is they will be working on a long-range plan for the west stands site with the expectation that there will be stands constructed over a mixed-used athletic space housing a weight-room, locker room and athletic offices.
If so that sounds like a better long term use for the space than just making the existing stands usable. But it also sounds like something that will take time to plan and fund. So no wonder they simply demolished what was there.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: billhoward (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: March 14, 2016 10:54AM

KeithK
Ken711
My understanding is they will be working on a long-range plan for the west stands site with the expectation that there will be stands constructed over a mixed-used athletic space housing a weight-room, locker room and athletic offices.
If so that sounds like a better long term use for the space than just making the existing stands usable. But it also sounds like something that will take time to plan and fund. So no wonder they simply demolished what was there.
The stands may have deteriorated so much that they're dangerous. Also, seeing them down may spur the effort to put something up sooner, not later.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.nyc.res.rr.com)
Date: April 30, 2016 08:36PM

Men's lax finished 1-5 in Ivies, first losing season in 18 years. Along with football going 1-9 again, and basketball's 3-11 Ivy record, 2015-6 was abysmal for Cornell athletics.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Ken711 (---.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 15, 2016 08:29PM

FWIW:

According to Princetons's Twitter feed, their year-end total is 14 league championships:

"That’s 14 @Ivy_Athletics titles and 7 more 2nd-places in 15-16. And 19 of 33 Ivy sports have won at least 1 title in the last 2 years."
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: Chris '03 (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: May 15, 2016 09:06PM

Ken711
FWIW:

According to Princetons's Twitter feed, their year-end total is 14 league championships:

"That’s 14 @Ivy_Athletics titles and 7 more 2nd-places in 15-16. And 19 of 33 Ivy sports have won at least 1 title in the last 2 years."

For perspective, for the period Fall '10 - Spring '15, Cornell's 26 titles placed it third behind Princeton (historical king of olympic sports)(55) and Harvard (47). Brown had 4.

[ivyleaguesports.com]

 
___________________________
"Mark Mazzoleni looks like a guy whose dog just died out there..."
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: May 18, 2016 09:06AM

In each of 2014-5 and 2015-6, Cornell won only 3 Ivy titles. This year our football, basketball, & lax teams went a combined 5-22 in the Ivies.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2016 09:08AM by CAS.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: George64 (---.rochester.res.rr.com)
Date: May 18, 2016 12:32PM

CAS
In each of 2014-5 and 2015-6, Cornell won only 3 Ivy titles. This year our football, basketball, & lax teams went a combined 5-22 in the Ivies.

Certainly, the last two years have been disappointing, but since Noel was appointed athletic director in August 1999, Cornell has won 14.6 percent of Ivy titles, topped only by Harvard (19.8 percent) and the jocks at Princeton (29.7 percent) over the same period. Penn is next best at 9.3 percent. For the years before Noel became AD, Cornell won 10.8 percent of Ivy titles. Cornell's title percentage is undoubtedly biased upward as we field more teams than any other Ivy, or at least, we did.

On the positive side we have a new hoops coach, and a stud lacrosse attackman and a highly-rated QB matriculating next year. Let's see what happens.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: KeithK (---.external.lmco.com)
Date: May 18, 2016 12:49PM

The point being that a couple of down years aren't necessarily sufficient justification for canning the AD. Particularly in college athletics. Oh, I know many of us have beefs with him that run back far more than two years. But that's seperate from the "what have you done for me lately" argument.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: nyc94 (---.public.wayport.net)
Date: May 18, 2016 01:57PM

CAS
In each of 2014-5 and 2015-6, Cornell won only 3 Ivy titles. This year our football, basketball, & lax teams went a combined 5-22 in the Ivies.

What are the three this year? I know men's outdoor Heps and I assume wrestling. Does women's lacrosse tournament count as an "Ivy title"?
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.hsd1.nj.comcast.net)
Date: May 18, 2016 02:10PM

You are right NYC - looks like only 2 Ivy titles for Cornell this year.
 
Re: Do we need a housecleaning in the athletics dept?
Posted by: CAS (---.dia.static.qwest.net)
Date: May 25, 2016 01:23PM

Sporting News has come out with their 2016 Ivy League football predictions. They predict Cornell to finish eighth in the Ancient Eight.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2016 01:26PM by CAS.
 
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