Tough times for Cornell athletics

Football 1-9. Only win over Columbia. Columbia recently hired Al Bagnoli, winner of 9 Ivy titles at Penn.
Basketball 5-9 in Ivies w/senior dominated team. Winner of one third of its games in 5 years under Bill Courtney. Steve Donahue, who won 3 consecutive Ivy titles preceding Courtney's hiring, is now coaching Penn.
Hockey 11-14. 7th in ECAC. Bounced in 1st round of ECAC playoffs.
Lacrosse 3-2 in Ivies w/senior dominated team. On NCAA bubble.
Andy, are you out there somewhere???

Don't forget the condemned West Stands at Schoellkopf Field.

CAS
Football 1-9. Only win over Columbia. Columbia recently hired Al Bagnoli, winner of 9 Ivy titles at Penn.
Basketball 5-9 in Ivies w/senior dominated team. Winner of one third of its games in 5 years under Bill Courtney. Steve Donahue, who won 3 consecutive Ivy titles preceding Courtney's hiring, is now coaching Penn.
Hockey 11-14. 7th in ECAC. Bounced in 1st round of ECAC playoffs.
Lacrosse 3-2 in Ivies w/senior dominated team. On NCAA bubble.
Andy, are you out there somewhere???

Yes doing self promoting puff pieces in the Cornell fund raising magazine and videos. Too busy to do that other stuff.

Are the West Stands really condemned?

CAS
Are the West Stands really condemned?

The areas on either end are.

I guess Schoellkopf unfortunately is not a beneficiary of the capital campaign which has raised over $5.8 billion to date.

9 years since a winning season in football. 5 years since a winning season (and the Sweet Sixteen) in basketball.

CAS
9 years since a winning season in football. 5 years since a winning season (and the Sweet Sixteen) in basketball.

Sounds normal to above average in Cornell history.

Not always true Chris. Jim Hofher went 33-23 in the Ivies, never finishing below 4th, coaching football from '90-'97. Donahue's last 6 Cornell teams all had winning Ivy records. If you accept losing, you will.

Just to add "focus" to this discussion, I've created the chart below. (I left out basketball because it just doesn't matter.)

Scersk '97
Just to add "focus" to this discussion, I've created the chart below. (I left out basketball because it just doesn't matter.)

We are probably going to be the new Columbia after Bagnoli gets that program righted.

Ken711

Scersk '97
Just to add "focus" to this discussion, I've created the chart below. (I left out basketball because it just doesn't matter.)

We are probably going to be the new Columbia after Bagnoli gets that program righted.

No argument here. Why did [we let?] Jim Hofher leave, again?

Scersk '97

Ken711

Scersk '97
Just to add "focus" to this discussion, I've created the chart below. (I left out basketball because it just doesn't matter.)

We are probably going to be the new Columbia after Bagnoli gets that program righted.

No argument here. Why did [we let?] Jim Hofher leave, again?

It was his choice. He wanted to return to coaching at the D1 level, hoping to advance his coaching career at a higher level program.

baseball has done Ok and they are self funded

the AD has even let them run the golf course into the ground.

the question really is does the BoT care enough to ask the AD to do a good job or is it like so many other decision on the campus money driven and who cares about the service/product that results.

Sounds right upprdeck. Unless the BoT and the senior Administation care, little is likely to change.

upprdeck
the question really is does the BoT care enough to ask the AD to do a good job...

Who sas they don't? But they may not be using "win NCAA or Ivy championships" (in the sports I care about) as the only or primary metric for doing a good job. It probably shouldn't be at an academic institution.

Ken711

Scersk '97
No argument here. Why did [we let?] Jim Hofher leave, again?

It was his choice. He wanted to return to coaching at the D1 level, hoping to advance his coaching career at a higher level program.

Perhaps if we'd been to show him a bit more green, or some facility upgrades?

Yet the subsequent years proved good ol' Chaz. Moore (the CEO of Athletics) to have been pretty astute in making personnel decisions. Perhaps there was nothing to be done. Mangurian, hired by Charlie, seemed to have the team heading in the right direction as well, the season-ending and championship-losing loss in the "Ivy Bowl" notwithstanding.

I had no idea during my "salad days" that I was watching the tail end of some football "golden years."

maybe we should be wondering why they spend a million+ on charter day but asked the kids to kick in money to pay for health care.

Scersk '97

Ken711

Scersk '97
No argument here. Why did [we let?] Jim Hofher leave, again?

It was his choice. He wanted to return to coaching at the D1 level, hoping to advance his coaching career at a higher level program.

Perhaps if we'd been to show him a bit more green, or some facility upgrades?

Yet the subsequent years proved good ol' Chaz. Moore (the CEO of Athletics) to have been pretty astute in making personnel decisions. Perhaps there was nothing to be done. Mangurian, hired by Charlie, seemed to have the team heading in the right direction as well, the season-ending and championship-losing loss in the "Ivy Bowl" notwithstanding.

I had no idea during my "salad days" that I was watching the tail end of some football "golden years."

Columbia brought in an outside consultant to evaluate the football program, athletic admissions process, facilities etc. One result, they make a smart hire an Al Bagnoli. Perhaps it's time for Cornell to bring in an outside consultant to evaluate the lack of success Cornell has experienced in sport programs like football and basketball as well.

Ken711

Scersk '97

Ken711

Scersk '97
No argument here. Why did [we let?] Jim Hofher leave, again?

It was his choice. He wanted to return to coaching at the D1 level, hoping to advance his coaching career at a higher level program.

Perhaps if we'd been to show him a bit more green, or some facility upgrades?

Yet the subsequent years proved good ol' Chaz. Moore (the CEO of Athletics) to have been pretty astute in making personnel decisions. Perhaps there was nothing to be done. Mangurian, hired by Charlie, seemed to have the team heading in the right direction as well, the season-ending and championship-losing loss in the "Ivy Bowl" notwithstanding.

I had no idea during my "salad days" that I was watching the tail end of some football "golden years."

Columbia brought in an outside consultant to evaluate the football program, athletic admissions process, facilities etc. One result, they make a smart hire an Al Bagnoli. Perhaps it's time for Cornell to bring in an outside consultant to evaluate the lack of success Cornell has experienced in sport programs like football and basketball as well.

That would require the AD and other administrators to stop looking in the mirror and admiring themselves.

I'm heartbroken.
Lacrosse was my refuge.
Especially after hockey season.

Agree Ken, we need someone outside the athletic dept to evaluate why we are uncompetitive in football, and possibly examine other issues hurting Cornell programs.

Scersk '97
I had no idea during my "salad days" that I was watching the tail end of some football "golden years."

Cornell's football excitement ended on a broken play fullback option at Baker Field. I still have to change the channel whenever Marcellus Wiley comes on.

Weren't people saying just a few years ago that Cornell was doing well and Andy had made some smart hires?

In football and basketball we play in the Special Olympics conference. I don't think we can draw any conclusions from year-to-year performance other than "we got worse one-half star prospects than Brown last year."

Andy has hired 4 football head coaches who combined have 1 winning season at Cornell.

I'm assuming the administration is concerned with success in wrestling, hockey and lacrosse on a consistent basis; anything else is a bonus.

Ken711
Columbia brought in an outside consultant to evaluate the football program, athletic admissions process, facilities etc. One result, they make a smart hire an Al Bagnoli. Perhaps it's time for Cornell to bring in an outside consultant to evaluate the lack of success Cornell has experienced in sport programs like football and basketball as well.

Bagnoli is 62 and no spring chicken. Recall we brought in Bob Blackman when he was in his 60th year and he went 23-33-1. At Dartmouth, hired when he was 39, Blackman went 104-37-3. A coach in his 40s or 50s is more likely to be in his prime.

Cornell doesn't deliberately hire bad football coaches. Maxie Baughan may well have been a great coach at Cornell (1983-88) but personal conduct did him in. He lifted the team frm 3-6-1 to 7-2-1 and a tie for first in the Ivies.

billhoward

Ken711
Columbia brought in an outside consultant to evaluate the football program, athletic admissions process, facilities etc. One result, they make a smart hire an Al Bagnoli. Perhaps it's time for Cornell to bring in an outside consultant to evaluate the lack of success Cornell has experienced in sport programs like football and basketball as well.

Bagnoli is 62 and no spring chicken. Recall we brought in Bob Blackman when he was in his 60th year and he went 23-33-1. At Dartmouth, hired when he was 39, Blackman went 104-37-3.

Cornell doesn't deliberately hire bad football coaches. Maxie Baughan may well have been a great coach at Cornell (1983-88) but personal conduct did him in. He lifted the team frm 3-6-1 to 7-2-1 and a tie for first in the Ivies.

I'm not saying they deliberately hire bad football coaches (although the Tim Pendergast hire was pretty suspect), then it may be other areas where the support system for these recent coaches is lacking. Is it the facilities, the admissions process, I'm not sure, but clearly and outside consultant with a fresh evaluation wouldn't hurt.

Who cares about football, cant go to the playoffs

Many would care about football if we were any good. We have had 1 winning season (6-4 record) in the last 14 years. Why excuse all the losing? Is there any accountability for performance? Why not do what's necessary to have a successful football program?

underskill
I'm assuming the administration is concerned with success in wrestling, hockey and lacrosse on a consistent basis; anything else is a bonus.

The olds (I mean people 20+ years older than I -- the ancients) still care about football to a degree that most of us would find astounding. I assume the administration cares about money, and there still seems to be money to be shaken from football alumni and elderly fans. Winning would open that vein.

CAS
Many would care about football if we were any good. We have had 1 winning season (6-4 record) in the last 14 years. Why excuse all the losing? Is there any accountability for performance? Why not do what's necessary to have a successful football program?

Why the heck can't Andy go out and sign a few big name free agents and turn the team around? Wait, you can't do that? Damn.

Even if it were a priority there's no magic formula for doing what's necesaary to win.

Agree Trotsky re fundraising. Annual football giving, even with the current state of the program, is a big multiple of what's raised for hockey.

CAS
Agree Trotsky re fundraising. Annual football giving, even with the current state of the program, is a big multiple of what's raised for hockey.

isn't that a function of numbers? i.e. a football alumni list is inherently much larger than a hockey list given the size of rosters.

underskill
I'm assuming the administration is concerned with success in wrestling, hockey and lacrosse on a consistent basis; anything else is a bonus.

Definitely not true. Football raises the most money and is historically (where "history" is defined as going back a loooong time) our most important sport.

BearLover

underskill
I'm assuming the administration is concerned with success in wrestling, hockey and lacrosse on a consistent basis; anything else is a bonus.

Definitely not true. Football raises the most money and is historically (where "history" is defined as going back a loooong time) our most important sport.

if it raises the most money, then I doubt they have an incentive to invest much more in the program as is, I don't think being an Ivy League contender in football is really going to lead to a huge increase in funds, and certainly not exposure given that it's D2 and no playoffs. It's not like basketball where the school gets to appear on CBS for making the tourney

underskill

BearLover

underskill
I'm assuming the administration is concerned with success in wrestling, hockey and lacrosse on a consistent basis; anything else is a bonus.

Definitely not true. Football raises the most money and is historically (where "history" is defined as going back a loooong time) our most important sport.

if it raises the most money, then I doubt they have an incentive to invest much more in the program as is, I don't think being an Ivy League contender in football is really going to lead to a huge increase in funds, and certainly not exposure given that it's D2 and no playoffs. It's not like basketball where the school gets to appear on CBS for making the tourney

Please, that's playoff ineligible Division I Football Championship Subdivision.

Chris '03

underskill

BearLover

underskill
I'm assuming the administration is concerned with success in wrestling, hockey and lacrosse on a consistent basis; anything else is a bonus.

Definitely not true. Football raises the most money and is historically (where "history" is defined as going back a loooong time) our most important sport.

if it raises the most money, then I doubt they have an incentive to invest much more in the program as is, I don't think being an Ivy League contender in football is really going to lead to a huge increase in funds, and certainly not exposure given that it's D2 and no playoffs. It's not like basketball where the school gets to appear on CBS for making the tourney

Please, that's playoff ineligible Division I Football Championship Subdivision.

We'll always have that 1939 Lambert Trophy.

Trotsky

Chris '03

underskill

BearLover

underskill
I'm assuming the administration is concerned with success in wrestling, hockey and lacrosse on a consistent basis; anything else is a bonus.

Definitely not true. Football raises the most money and is historically (where "history" is defined as going back a loooong time) our most important sport.

if it raises the most money, then I doubt they have an incentive to invest much more in the program as is, I don't think being an Ivy League contender in football is really going to lead to a huge increase in funds, and certainly not exposure given that it's D2 and no playoffs. It's not like basketball where the school gets to appear on CBS for making the tourney

Please, that's playoff ineligible Division I Football Championship Subdivision.

We'll always have that 1939 Lambert Trophy.

And the 5 fake NCAA trophies somebody mocked up for the HOF room in Friends Hall.

One thing I just learned: "Cornell president Edmund Ezra Day turned down a Rose Bowl bid, citing the players’ need to catch up on their studies."

Trotsky

underskill
I'm assuming the administration is concerned with success in wrestling, hockey and lacrosse on a consistent basis; anything else is a bonus.

The olds (I mean people 20+ years older than I -- the ancients) still care about football to a degree that most of us would find astounding. I assume the administration cares about money, and there still seems to be money to be shaken from football alumni and elderly fans. Winning would open that vein.

Back in the day, Cornell football was big to the alumni but also the students and to the media. It helped that the Ivy League was real D1. When Ed Marinaro broke the NCAA rushing record, it was on the front page of the NY Times and on the cover of Sports Illustrated. At at one point Dartmouth (under Blackman) got the Indians (now Green) up to 14th in the polls. Even now, football provides a fabric for fall activities by students and alumni five times each fall. Homecoming has become a big event again, as Cornell Alumni Affairs welcomes all but really pushes to get the first ten classes out to come back. Which draws old alumni who like to be around younger alumnni. The only thing old alumni don't like is seeing drunken sorority women toss their liquid breakfast in front of Schoellkopf; I remember a classmate tut-tutting and saying, "Our sorority was never like that." Memory is selective.

Today, even if we had a fabulous football team, there still would not be 15,000-20,000 in the stands each game. That has changed. Actually, in the seventies, the old fans thought seventies football stucked because in the 1950s we beat Michigan. Is it possible in 2035, alumni will recall 2010-15 as the good old days. (Uh, probably not.) Maybe Columbia will be replaced on our schedule with Technion. In hockey, the fans could throw gefilte fish.

Professor MH Abrams dead at 102. According to the Sun article, he never missed a home football game during his nearly 70 years at Cornell. The man was a glutton for punishment. NY Times obit.

It would a nice thing for the SuN to get an explanation on why the Ivy still does not let the fball teams go to the ncaa when all the other sports can now.. low level football or not having something to play for would probably help all the ivy teams recruit and play at a better level and increase attendance.

billhoward
Even now, football provides a fabric for fall activities by students and alumni five times each fall.

No.

Unless things have dramatically changed since I was a student, 97% of the students could not care less. The bandies had to be there and the frats did their cute frat stuff, but otherwise nobody gave a shit. Hockey was unique in that interesting students actually cared. Jock rituals like Homecoming have not involved students since sometime in the mid 60s -- since then they have been the type of thing that student government types think is important, but everyone else ignores, or at most regards as laughable.

Trotsky

billhoward
Even now, football provides a fabric for fall activities by students and alumni five times each fall.

No.

Unless things have dramatically changed since I was a student, 97% of the students could not care less. The bandies had to be there and the frats did their cute frat stuff, but otherwise nobody gave a shit. Hockey was unique in that interesting students actually cared. Jock rituals like Homecoming have not involved students since sometime in the mid 60s -- since then they have been the type of thing that student government types think is important, but everyone else ignores, or at most regards as laughable.

Agreed.

upprdeck
It would a nice thing for the SuN to get an explanation on why the Ivy still does not let the fball teams go to the ncaa when all the other sports can now.. low level football or not having something to play for would probably help all the ivy teams recruit and play at a better level and increase attendance.

That has been discussed numerous times here. [www.voy.com]

The Ivy Presidents won't change this policy...ever. Still the basic argument of the thread is if we are fielding sport teams like football, why can't we build a competitive program?

Ken711

upprdeck
It would a nice thing for the SuN to get an explanation on why the Ivy still does not let the fball teams go to the ncaa when all the other sports can now.. low level football or not having something to play for would probably help all the ivy teams recruit and play at a better level and increase attendance.

That has been discussed numerous times here. [www.voy.com]

The Ivy Presidents won't change this policy...ever. Still the basic argument of the thread is if we are fielding sport teams like football, why can't we build a competitive program?

I think the real question is "Why can't we be competitive within the Ivy League?" Unfortunately I think the deck is stacked against us.

1. The talent pool of academically qualified players who can play at an elite level is modest at best and for those with dreams of the NFL or competing at a high level there are better choices (Eg Stanford, Cal, Michigan, Northwestern).

2. Football means much more to Harvard and Yale given the importance of "The Game" ($$$$) than it does to us. They will put far more emphasis ($) on gobbling up the eligible pool than we will.

I think the best we can hope for is to be better than Penn, Columbia, Dartmouth, Princeton and Brown in a good year.

Mollie Marcoux, the Athletic Director at Princeton (And Ithaca NY native) made a statement a couple of months ago advocating for football participation in playoffs. I doubt she would have said that without permission from the "higher ups" at Princeton. Never say Never I say.

I really never understood what the downside to letting an ivy school play playoff football was. did they forget that for a long tme the power of football was some of the ivy league teams? is one school getting to play for a title going to kill the system?

would cornell/penn in late nov get more people in the seats if they were playing for something meaningful?

We all agree Ivy football isn't at the same level as that played in the SEC. And it would be nice to have the Ivy winner participate in the playoffs. But the basic question is why we are uncompetitive in the league as currently constituted? Do we have the right coaches, facilities, and institutional support to be be successful? And if not, how do we change that?

CAS
We all agree Ivy football isn't at the same level as that played in the SEC. And it would be nice to have the Ivy winner participate in the playoffs. But the basic question is why we are uncompetitive in the league as currently constituted? Do we have the right coaches, facilities, and institutional support to be be successful? And if not, how do we change that?

Spot on.

Yesterday's lax losses -- the men, of course, and the women losing a 2nd consecutive 1-goal game to Penn -- probably cap off the most disappointing Cornell sports year in many a year. Perhaps only wrestling matched or outperformed expectations.

Well, there's always polo I guess

scoop85

Well, there's always polo I guess

Check out Cornell's lightweight crew. National champions last year, undefeated so far this year.

George64

scoop85

Well, there's always polo I guess

Check out Cornell's lightweight crew. National champions last year, undefeated so far this year.

Yes, of course. After I posted I realized I forgot to mention crew.

Pretty sad year when the rare successes are in wrestling and lightweight crew.

CAS
Pretty sad year when the rare successes are in wrestling and lightweight crew.

Cornell lights sweep Dartmouth for second consecutive undefeated regular season. This is particularly impressive considering the conditions on Cayuga earlier this spring. Coach Kerber deserves IJ Coach of the Year. Eastern Sprints and IRA National Championship coming up. LGR

Are we going to lose by 20? A fitting end to a lousy sports season, good work Andy

Thank you Andy

CAS
Thank you Andy

Thank you Andy

Towerroad

CAS
Thank you Andy

Thank you Andy

Thank you Andy

We all (rightfully) think Andy is doing a bad job, but I doubt he ever reads these forums, so maybe we should sarcastically thank him through an e-mail instead of an ELynah forum post.

Bearlover, you're probably right. In the words of the Grateful Dead, one way or another, this darkness got to give.

Al Bagnoli the new Columbia football coach "bags" a D1 transfer QB from the Florida. Cornell will be lonely at the bottom of the Ivy League football standings now.

[www.cbssports.com]

I don't understand why despite enrolling many transfers, Cornell football never gets an impact transfer. Bagnoli at Penn and now Columbia, and Yale have been very successful going the transfer route.

CAS
I don't understand why despite enrolling many transfers, Cornell football never gets an impact transfer. Bagnoli at Penn and now Columbia, and Yale have been very successful going the transfer route.

I agree, I can't figure that one out as well. Even Harvard has had great success with transfers. [en.wikipedia.org]