Kyle Dake and other dominant Cornell athletes

Kyle Dake’s extraordinary achievements led me to think about other truly dominant Cornell athletes. By dominant I mean athletes who stood head and shoulders above their intercollegiate peers as defined by sport and era (to accommodate changed levels of competition).

The following list is biased towards athletes of the last 50 years because that coincides with my time on the Hill and as an alum. It’s also biased towards the sports that I’ve followed most closely and towards men’s teams, because until recently women have played in their shadows. Because Ivy football and basketball lack parity with nationally ranked teams, I’ve set the bar lower for these two sports.

Men’s Hockey: Ken Dryden, Doug Ferguson, Bruce Pattison, Dan Lodboa, Doug Murray, Lance Nethery, Joe Nieuwendyk, Dan Ratushny.

Men’s Lacrosse: Mark Webster, Butch Hilliard, Bruce Cohen, Mike French, Eamon McEneany, Bill Marino, Tim Goldstein, Max Siebald, Rob Pannell.

Football: Gary Wood, Pete Gogolak, Ed Marinaro, Chris Zingo, Chad Levitt, Tom McHale, Kevin Boothe.

Wrestling: Dave Auble, Travis Lee, Kyle Dake.

Basketball: Chuck Rolles, Ryan Whittman.

Track and Field: Charlie Moore, Meredith Gourdine.

Women’s Hockey: Rebecca Johnston, Laura Fortino, Lauriane Rougeau, with more to follow soon.

As I thought about this, I realized just how many extraordinary athletes I’ve seen over the years or at least read about. I’ve set the bar high -- this list excludes scores of All-Americans. I'm sure that I've left out many deserving candidates.

Add to Lacrosse: Three-time First team All-Ivys Bob Shaw, Joe Bouloukas, Matt McMonagle. And 6 more Lacrosse Hall of Famers - Bob Henrickson, Chris Kane, Bob Rule, Kevin Cook, Norm Engelke, Dan Mackesey.

Paul Schimoler?

(just your/our...era. Probably 3-4 more if we go deep.)

I always like these kinds of lists.

With this many names, this almost becomes a list of top Cornell athletes rather than the truly elite at Dake's level. Koll is describing Dake as the best collegiate wrester in history. That's probably accurate when one figures in that the other 2 4-time champions red-shirted. Related to an earlier thread, one obvious reason for Dake's moving up 3 weight classes is that he started as a true freshmen; as he somewhat endearing said on ESPN right after his win, he was only a boy when he started at Cornell.

Limiting myself also only to the 1950s or very late 40s on, key additions are

Bo Roberson, who was certainly the best all-around athlete ever at Cornell and who had a pretty nice pro football career after finishing second to Ralph Boston by a small fraction of an inch in the long jump at the 1960 Olympics.

Dick Savitt in tennis.

Al Hall in the hammer throw, I guess Walt Ashbaugh by finishing only fourth in the '52 Olympics (Moore and Gourdine winning that year) may not make the list.

Frank Bettucci in wresting. There are others that could also be named in wresting, but he along with Auble was named the outstanding wrestler at the NCAAs.

I think I've said this previously, but the proportion of Cornell NCAA wresting champions from Ithaca (the Ithaca areas) is pretty high: 1 by Bettucci, 2 by Auble, 4 by Dake.

Dake. Dryden and Nieuwendyk. Marinaro. French and McEneaney; most likely Siebald and now Pannell. There's a difference between players for the ages and yet another Cornell All-America selection.

French and McEneaney were not just two of the greatest ever to play the game but they complemented each other in their 2 overlapping years. We're seeing that again with the Pannell-Mock combo. Had French and McEneaney been eligible for play as freshmen, French's career numbers might have been 250-130-380 and the 1974 attack would have been freshman McEneneaney, sophomore Frech, and senior Jim Trenz who ranks fourth all-time in lacrosse scoring PPG; Cornell might have gotten further than the NCAA semifinals.

billhoward
Dake. Dryden and Nieuwendyk. Marinaro. French and McEneaney; most likely Siebald and now Pannell. There's a difference between players for the ages and yet another Cornell All-America selection.

I agree with Bill, though not sure yet about Seibald.

There may also be football players from the Dobie era who might qualify, like Eddie Kaw or George Pfann. Dan Jenkins prepared a "retro Heisman" list to recognize those who he felt would have won the Heisman if it had been given back in their era, and he selected Pfann for 1923. Red Grange was runner-up.

[www.footballfoundation.org]

billhoward
Dake. Dryden and Nieuwendyk. Marinaro. French and McEneaney; most likely Siebald and now Pannell. There's a difference between players for the ages and yet another Cornell All-America selection.

Some WICErs deserve to be here.

Surely Johnston. She could grab the game by the scruff of the neck and beat it into submission. If Jenner plays her senior season like she did in the second half of this year, she should also be on the list. It's not as obvious, but Rougeau was very hard to get around, and some of her forays up the ice were magnificent.

Al DeFlorio
I agree with Bill, though not sure yet about Seibald.

I'm can't wait to see what he does this season to help you make up your mind.

Seibald was the best lax player in the country his senior year. That doesn't qualify him for this list?

dag14
Seibald was the best lax player in the country his senior year. That doesn't qualify him for this list?

Not necessarily for Bill's "player for the ages" criterion, which is the criterion I was commenting on. I'm not sure every Enners award winner (a more meaningful award, to me, than the Tewaaraton, by the way, and one which Max also was awarded) is a player for the ages. Many are obvious at the time they graduate: Frank Urso, Gary Gait, Dave Pietramala, French, McEneaney, for example). Others get sorted out over time. Pannell will likely finish #3 on the all-time points list (an advantage attackmen have statistically over middies) which may cement his position as an all-time great.

Feel free to put anyone you'd like on your list.

Al DeFlorio

dag14
Seibald was the best lax player in the country his senior year. That doesn't qualify him for this list?

Not necessarily for Bill's "player for the ages" criterion, which is the criterion I was commenting on. I'm not sure every Enners award winner (a more meaningful award, to me, than the Tewaaraton, by the way, and one which Max also was awarded) is a player for the ages. Many are obvious at the time they graduate: Frank Urso, Gary Gait, Dave Pietramala, French, McEneaney, for example). Others get sorted out over time. Pannell will likely finish #3 on the all-time points list (an advantage attackmen have statistically over middies) which may cement his position as an all-time great.

Feel free to put anyone you'd like on your list.

I don't get the "over time" part. Max and the players of his era aren't going back on the field to decide things. Either he was among the best players of his generation, or he wasn't. That's not going to change now or 10 years from now.

Just thinking about this is bringing how I feel about baseball HOF voting into sharper focus.

RichH

Al DeFlorio

dag14
Seibald was the best lax player in the country his senior year. That doesn't qualify him for this list?

Not necessarily for Bill's "player for the ages" criterion, which is the criterion I was commenting on. I'm not sure every Enners award winner (a more meaningful award, to me, than the Tewaaraton, by the way, and one which Max also was awarded) is a player for the ages. Many are obvious at the time they graduate: Frank Urso, Gary Gait, Dave Pietramala, French, McEneaney, for example). Others get sorted out over time. Pannell will likely finish #3 on the all-time points list (an advantage attackmen have statistically over middies) which may cement his position as an all-time great.

Feel free to put anyone you'd like on your list.

I don't get the "over time" part. Max and the players of his era aren't going back on the field to decide things. Either he was among the best players of his generation, or he wasn't. That's not going to change now or 10 years from now.

Just thinking about this is bringing how I feel about baseball HOF voting into sharper focus.

OK, then don't get it. I'm OK with that. Really. I don't disagree that Max was "among the best players of his generation (a somewhat vague time period, to be sure), but that may or may not make him a "player for the ages," which is the criterion Bill used and I agreed with.

I can see both sides to this, but am inclined to consider the 'over time' element

It is one thing for you to be an All-American a couple years, or dominate the Ivy League competition
But I think when you are trying to develop a short list, it sometimes takes a few years to recognize not only that an athlete was dominant for 2-3 years in college, but also see that 5years after they have left the playing field another athlete hasnt stepped in and shown that same dominance.

For an achievement like Dake's we can assume that we wont see other wrestlers matching it in the near future, if ever (there were only 2 other 4 time champions even right?)
When you have something like a lacrosse midfielder, I think in the back of your mind there is always the question of whether your new allstar might be matched by a dozen other athletes in 3-5 years.

just my 2 cents

Al DeFlorio
OK, then don't get it.

Christ Al, that was an invitation to try to explain your position, but you chose to bring the grumpus instead. I *want* to get it. I don't like being left in the dark.

I'm OK with that. Really. I don't disagree that Max was "among the best players of his generation (a somewhat vague time period, to be sure), but that may or may not make him a "player for the ages," which is the criterion Bill used and I agreed with.

It's a fair question. What in particular will dawn on you 5 years from now that hasn't today, four years following his graduation? Will your definition of "player for the ages" change? Will Seibald's stats look more impressive if the game shifts to a different style in the future? If a future middie leads the Red to an NCAA Championship in 2019, will Max's lack of one diminish him in your eye? I'm sincerely interested in this concept and not trying to be jerky this time, I swear.

We may appreciate goalies more in hindsight rather than the "Iles Is Not the Answer" yapping you hear while the goalie is playing. (Not saying Iles is going to be on the best-of-all-time lists. He's just the current pinata.) Everyone else, I think it's more a matter that the exploits of an All-America player may - might - dim a bit when you compare him in hindsight. For a Matt Moulson, we'll recall him as an even greater Cornell player because of his pro exploits even present success is not an indicator of past performance. Seibald, I believe, is always going to be one of Cornell's greatest ever in lacrosse.

billhoward
We may appreciate goalies more in hindsight rather than the "Iles Is Not the Answer" yapping you hear while the goalie is playing. (Not saying Iles is going to be on the best-of-all-time lists. He's just the current pinata.) Everyone else, I think it's more a matter that the exploits of an All-America player may - might - dim a bit when you compare him in hindsight. For a Matt Moulson, we'll recall him as an even greater Cornell player because of his pro exploits even present success is not an indicator of past performance. Seibald, I believe, is always going to be one of Cornell's greatest ever in lacrosse.

Yeah, but not winning a NC does tarnish things. And I'm a great fan of Max's. But the fact is that the rest of the 2009 team wasn't exactly chopped liver. With a truly great-for-the-ages player, I do think you need "the ring," as they say in the pros, unless the rest of the team stunk. This clearly was not the case.

On the other hand, great players have to be taken in the context of the game at the time they played and the team the played on. Bruce Cohen comes to mind.

3 seconds away from a national championship was crushing. But it doesn't affect the player's standing among a century of lacrosse greats.

billhoward
3 seconds away from a national championship was crushing. But it doesn't affect the player's standing among a century of lacrosse greats.

23 seconds but who is counting. I would include Max on the list.

Towerroad

billhoward
3 seconds away from a national championship was crushing. But it doesn't affect the player's standing among a century of lacrosse greats.

23 seconds but who is counting. I would include Max on the list.

Where do you get 23 seconds? Syracuse scored the tying goal with under 5 seconds in regulation.

ugarte

Towerroad

billhoward
3 seconds away from a national championship was crushing. But it doesn't affect the player's standing among a century of lacrosse greats.

23 seconds but who is counting. I would include Max on the list.

Where do you get 23 seconds? Syracuse scored the tying goal with under 5 seconds in regulation.

Ugarte is right. It was 4.5 seconds. Towerroad is probably recalling the cover of the subsequent (July) Inside Lacrosse magazine:

TimV

ugarte

Towerroad

billhoward
3 seconds away from a national championship was crushing. But it doesn't affect the player's standing among a century of lacrosse greats.

23 seconds but who is counting. I would include Max on the list.

Where do you get 23 seconds? Syracuse scored the tying goal with under 5 seconds in regulation.

Ugarte is right. It was 4.5 seconds. Towerroad is probably recalling the cover of the subsequent (July) cover of Inside Lacreosse magazine:

inside-lacrosse-magazine-cover.jpg

Seeing that cover ... oy

Yeh.

It never happened.

Jeff Hopkins '82
It never happened.

I once heard a fairy tale about a team that had posession of the rock deep in their own end and only had to hold on to it for 23 seconds to win the national title. Then the lax god Riddus interviened. I doubt that it ever happened.

Bill,
Jim Trenz here. A few data points could help you and the CU Lax community. The single season highest scoring duo in points per game and goals per game in NCAA history is Trenz-French: 6.5 ppg and 6.71 ppg, respectively, and combined 7.85 goals per game in 1974. French had 5.71 and 6.56 ppg the next two years. My career 6.21 ppg was an NCAA record, as were career goals per game; and at Penn State the NCAA Single Season records of points per game 7.0, goals per game 4.2, and points in a Single game 13. Five NCAA Records in total. I don't know how many records French has, but he had overtaken me in three of them. Without many others- Jon Levine, Billy Marino, Hagerty, Bobby Mitchell, Sanford- helped French in 1974 when he had 4.5 gpg, his highest seasonal rate. What a nice guy! He was a great teammate. Without a supporting team, it's too difficult to achieve. The '74 team had two NCAA records, and still has the Ivy record for most goals in a season, and CU record of most goals in a game.

If you consider your comment of what-if French and Mac and Trenz were on the same team, who would have drawn the number 1 defenseman? Who would have played defensive middie to take away ball possession of a stalling team? What shame I didn't get use my last year of athletic eligibility and been on the '75 team. No, I had to graduate - in those days if you didn't get out in four years, there had better be a good reason.

I don't think having Mac only would have changed the 1974 Semifinal result - we didn't have the middies and faceoff expert, and other problems the subsequent teams didn't have. We did well and had a great fun, especially on bus rides...

The total number of points in a career is obviously a function of the number of games played. Simply taking points per game for the last two years of play is an interesting calculation : mine was 7.0 and 6.5; French: 5.71 and 6.56. Go figure. Go Big Red.

George64
Men’s Hockey: Ken Dryden, Doug Ferguson, Bruce Pattison, Dan Lodboa, Doug Murray, Lance Nethery, Joe Nieuwendyk, Dan Ratushny.

Nice call on Ratushny..........a lot of people who watched him closely knew that he was a controlling presence when he wasn't in the box. How about Brock Tredway? He had four dominant years - isn't he Cornell's leading all-time scorer? Three of the four seasons were good to very good seasons. Two NCAA appearances including one Frozen Four finish.

George64
Kyle Dake’s extraordinary achievements led me to think about other truly dominant Cornell athletes. By dominant I mean athletes who stood head and shoulders above their intercollegiate peers as defined by sport and era (to accommodate changed levels of competition).

The following list is biased towards athletes of the last 50 years because that coincides with my time on the Hill and as an alum. It’s also biased towards the sports that I’ve followed most closely and towards men’s teams, because until recently women have played in their shadows. Because Ivy football and basketball lack parity with nationally ranked teams, I’ve set the bar lower for these two sports.

Men’s Hockey: Ken Dryden, Doug Ferguson, Bruce Pattison, Dan Lodboa, Doug Murray, Lance Nethery, Joe Nieuwendyk, Dan Ratushny.

Men’s Lacrosse: Mark Webster, Butch Hilliard, Bruce Cohen, Mike French, Eamon McEneany, Bill Marino, Tim Goldstein, Max Siebald, Rob Pannell.

Football: Gary Wood, Pete Gogolak, Ed Marinaro, Chris Zingo, Chad Levitt, Tom McHale, Kevin Boothe.

Wrestling: Dave Auble, Travis Lee, Kyle Dake.

Basketball: Chuck Rolles, Ryan Whittman.

Track and Field: Charlie Moore, Meredith Gourdine.

Women’s Hockey: Rebecca Johnston, Laura Fortino, Lauriane Rougeau, with more to follow soon.

As I thought about this, I realized just how many extraordinary athletes I’ve seen over the years or at least read about. I’ve set the bar high -- this list excludes scores of All-Americans. I'm sure that I've left out many deserving candidates.

The latest issue of Cornell Alumni Magazine ranks the best Cornell athletes ever. Tough to do when you limit the numbers.

George's posting on the Alumni Magazine list was a while back, but the topic is timeless. The list seems pretty reasonable. Presumably it's just the straight voting result, with nothing done to resolve any contradictions or rankings that would look out of order if a single person were doing it. For example, Dryden is first and Nieuwendyk sixth. I don't see how one separates them in the rankings based on hockey careers. And Nieuwendyk was a better lacrosse player than Dryden was a baseball SS. I would bet that if he played lacrosse but not hockey at Cornell, he would make the list just on that basis. I'd rank him ahead of Dryden.

It seems as if there are too many lacrosse players on the list, but it's hard to demote any of them. I'm glad to see Roberson relatively high.

Criteria are difficult to specify--whether it should just be undergraduate performance or later as well; whether dominance in one sport is more important than diversity. I would probably go with a top 10 like this:

1. Roberson
2. Dake
3. Moore
4. Nieuwendyke
5. Dryden
6. Pfann
7. McEneaney
8. Savitt
9. Marinaro
10. Gourdine

Dake is penalized for now because his post-Cornell career is incomplete. McEneaney gets extra points for being pretty good in football, in addition to his great lacrosse career.

I add Gary Wood near the top of the second 10, and drop Gogolak (his classmate and mine) from the top 20 (too specialized) and probably drop Wittman, retaining the others.

Moore, Gourdine, and Walt Ashbaugh (another '52 Olympian, who just missed a medal) all were from the same Cornell team.

There are no basketball players on my list; if I were to consider one, the under-recognized Lou Jordan would be among the possibilities. If one wanted to add another wrestler, it should be Frank Bettucci, who was named the outstanding wrestler at the 1953 NCAAs. There probably should be more pre-1950 candidates.

Of interest only to me, I've seen everyone on the Alumni Magazine list play except Pfann and Holland; and I knew Pfann a bit back in the '60s and am good friends from high school with Holland's son (his older son, not Joe).

I still have to put Dryden first. He was head and shoulders above his college opponents, and had immediate and lasting impact in the pros. Now if we get some Olympic Gold medals, that might change. But I also thought Gretzky should have won out against Ali.

Jim Hyla
I still have to put Dryden first. He was head and shoulders above his college opponents, and had immediate and lasting impact in the pros. Now if we get some Olympic Gold medals, that might change. But I also thought Gretzky should have won out against Ali.

But Gretzky would have to get Dave Semenko to fight Ali, so it's not a fair comparison

Chuck Henderson
1. Roberson
2. Dake
3. Moore
4. Nieuwendyke
5. Dryden
6. Pfann
7. McEneaney
8. Savitt
9. Marinaro
10. Gourdine

Someone sees just your list and not your underlying thoughts, they'll think: "The man is daft." You do make some interesting points. But, sheesh, Ken Dryden behind four others?

A lot of thought and discussion went into compiling the list of top athletes. If there are any certainties in compiling a list of the 10 greatest male athletes at each of the Ivy schools -- Luckman or Gehrig #1 at Columbia? Bednarik or Tilden at Penn? Calvin Hill or a Doonesbury character at Yale? -- the givens would be Bradley at Princeton and Dryden at Cornell: stellar in college in and out of the uniform, standouts against the competition, stellar in the pros, stellar in service to their country.

billhoward
Someone sees just your list and not your underlying thoughts, they'll think: "The man is daft." You do make some interesting points. But, sheesh, Ken Dryden behind four others?

I gave my justification for putting Nieuwendyk ahead of Dryden, but it could be argued either way. My main point was that I didn't think they should be 5 positions apart on the Alumni Magazine list.

As for the others I have ahead of Dryden:

Roberson finished 1/4" behind Ralph Boston in the Rome Olympics; Boston's jump set the Olympic record. Both were right at Jesse Owens's world record, which Boston had bested a couple of weeks earlier. Igor Ter-Ovanesyan, not a slouch, finished third. Roberson had a pretty good pro football career. (An interesting note in Wikipedia: "Bo Roberson is the only person to have an Ivy League degree, a Ph.D., an Olympic medal and a career in the N.F.L."

Dake is probably the greatest collegiate wrestler ever, given no red shirt and the competition he faced. I don't mean in any way to diminish Dryden. Can it be said that he's the greatest college hockey player? It's difficult to distinguish goalies from other players. As I wrote earlier and as Jim is saying, with a post-Cornell career incomplete, Dake's ranking is incomplete, and an Olympic medal might alter some views.

Moore may be the most debatable, but he held the American record in the 400m hurdles, won the Olympics just off world-record time (also a silver in the 4x400 relay), won NCAA championships, and was the top in his primary event over a period of years.

A lot of thought and discussion went into compiling the list of top athletes. If there are any certainties in compiling a list of the 10 greatest male athletes at each of the Ivy schools -- Luckman or Gehrig #1 at Columbia? Bednarik or Tilden at Penn? Calvin Hill or a Doonesbury character at Yale? -- the givens would be Bradley at Princeton and Dryden at Cornell: stellar in college in and out of the uniform, standouts against the competition, stellar in the pros, stellar in service to their country.

Or maybe Dick Kazmaier in a tie with Bradley, for some earlier Princeton fans (certainly if he had gone ahead with a pro career)?

Perhaps one needs to distinguish fame, on which you're surely right about Dryden, from accomplishments like Dake's. Criteria are difficult: elite talent in a single sport versus great ability across more than one sport; for this kind of list, undergraduate versus later accomplishment. I'll admit to a little bias toward versatility across more than one sport and measurable performance as in track and field.

You say a lot of thought and discussion went into compiling the list of top athletes. I assume you're talking about the Alumni Magazine list, and I'm sure that's true. As I read the article, after nominations there appears to have been a vote and no subsequent revisions of rankings. Perhaps you know more about the process. My point was that simple voting seemed to me to result in some internal inconsistency.

Jim Hyla
I still have to put Dryden first. He was head and shoulders above his college opponents, and had immediate and lasting impact in the pros. Now if we get some Olympic Gold medals, that might change. But I also thought Gretzky should have won out against Ali.

I'm not sure what ranking involved Gretzky and Ali. There was lots of discussion at the millennium about the best athletes of the century. I was involved in that on a few discussion lists. Perhaps as context for the way I think about things, I had Jim Brown, Jackie Robinson, Carl Lewis, and Wilt Chamberlain high in my rankings, at least in part because of versatility.

Chuck Henderson
Dake is probably the greatest collegiate wrestler ever, given no red shirt and the competition he faced. I don't mean in any way to diminish Dryden. Can it be said that he's the greatest college hockey player? It's difficult to distinguish goalies from other players. As I wrote earlier and as Jim is saying, with a post-Cornell career incomplete, Dake's ranking is incomplete, and an Olympic medal might alter some views.

Don't want to get into a Dake vs. Dryden debate, but SI naming Dake college athlete of the year is something few Ivy athletes will ever see.

Chuck Henderson

billhoward
Someone sees just your list and not your underlying thoughts, they'll think: "The man is daft." You do make some interesting points. But, sheesh, Ken Dryden behind four others?

I gave my justification for putting Nieuwendyk ahead of Dryden, but it could be argued either way. My main point was that I didn't think they should be 5 positions apart on the Alumni Magazine list.

As for the others I have ahead of Dryden:

Roberson finished 1/4" behind Ralph Boston in the Rome Olympics; Boston's jump set the Olympic record. Both were right at Jesse Owens's world record, which Boston had bested a couple of weeks earlier. Igor Ter-Ovanesyan, not a slouch, finished third. Roberson had a pretty good pro football career. (An interesting note in Wikipedia: "Bo Roberson is the only person to have an Ivy League degree, a Ph.D., an Olympic medal and a career in the N.F.L."

Dake is probably the greatest collegiate wrestler ever, given no red shirt and the competition he faced. I don't mean in any way to diminish Dryden. Can it be said that he's the greatest college hockey player? It's difficult to distinguish goalies from other players. As I wrote earlier and as Jim is saying, with a post-Cornell career incomplete, Dake's ranking is incomplete, and an Olympic medal might alter some views.

Moore may be the most debatable, but he held the American record in the 400m hurdles, won the Olympics just off world-record time (also a silver in the 4x400 relay), won NCAA championships, and was the top in his primary event over a period of years.

A lot of thought and discussion went into compiling the list of top athletes. If there are any certainties in compiling a list of the 10 greatest male athletes at each of the Ivy schools -- Luckman or Gehrig #1 at Columbia? Bednarik or Tilden at Penn? Calvin Hill or a Doonesbury character at Yale? -- the givens would be Bradley at Princeton and Dryden at Cornell: stellar in college in and out of the uniform, standouts against the competition, stellar in the pros, stellar in service to their country.

Or maybe Dick Kazmaier in a tie with Bradley, for some earlier Princeton fans (certainly if he had gone ahead with a pro career)?

Perhaps one needs to distinguish fame, on which you're surely right about Dryden, from accomplishments like Dake's. Criteria are difficult: elite talent in a single sport versus great ability across more than one sport; for this kind of list, undergraduate versus later accomplishment. I'll admit to a little bias toward versatility across more than one sport and measurable performance as in track and field.

You say a lot of thought and discussion went into compiling the list of top athletes. I assume you're talking about the Alumni Magazine list, and I'm sure that's true. As I read the article, after nominations there appears to have been a vote and no subsequent revisions of rankings. Perhaps you know more about the process. My point was that simple voting seemed to me to result in some internal inconsistency.

Jim Hyla
I still have to put Dryden first. He was head and shoulders above his college opponents, and had immediate and lasting impact in the pros. Now if we get some Olympic Gold medals, that might change. But I also thought Gretzky should have won out against Ali.

I'm not sure what ranking involved Gretzky and Ali. There was lots of discussion at the millennium about the best athletes of the century. I was involved in that on a few discussion lists. Perhaps as context for the way I think about things, I had Jim Brown, Jackie Robinson, Carl Lewis, and Wilt Chamberlain high in my rankings, at least in part because of versatility.

Sports Illustrated