Ivy League Lacrosse Tournament

Schedule:

Friday, May 6

#3 Harvard vs. #2 Penn, 5 pm
ESPN3.com

#4 Yale at #1 Cornell, 8 pm
ESPN3.com & WCHU

Sunday, May 8

Championship Game, Noon
ESPNU, ESPN3.com & WCHU

Tickets for Friday are $12 for adults, $8 for students and children. Championship game tickets are $10/$5.

Apparently the league will decide after this year's tournament whether to continue it in the future. I'd just as well they shoot it dead, but I'm guessing they won't.

Why would you get rid of it?

phillysportsfan
Why would you get rid of it?

There are three reasons to have a tournament: 1) Generate fan excitement (which is really...) 2) generate revenue and 3) improve NCAA tournament standing. If the tourney isn't making money and isn't helping the league get at-large bids then maybe it's not worth doing.

phillysportsfan
Why would you get rid of it?

I'm not interested in seeing a replay of the Cornell-Yale game. I'd rather see Cornell play Notre Dame or Johns Hopkins or Hofstra with a 14th game.

Why does lacrosse traditionally play only one game per week? This and championship weekend seem to be the only times they play 2x per weekend? Is that enough of a reason right there to have an Ivy tournament -- mental and physical preparation for the postseason schedule?

Three times this year Cornell played a Tuesday game after a Saturday game--winning all three including games against Stony Brook and Syracuse.

Al DeFlorio

phillysportsfan
Why would you get rid of it?

I'm not interested in seeing a replay of the Cornell-Yale game. I'd rather see Cornell play Notre Dame or Johns Hopkins or Hofstra with a 14th game.

I agree. We need to be playing top ranked teams in order to be in tournament condition.

Towerroad

Al DeFlorio

phillysportsfan
Why would you get rid of it?

I'm not interested in seeing a replay of the Cornell-Yale game. I'd rather see Cornell play Notre Dame or Johns Hopkins or Hofstra with a 14th game.

I agree. We need to be playing top ranked teams in order to be in tournament condition.

Typically, the Ivy group produces multiple top ranked tournament caliber teams. Also, I am not too familiar with lax game limits and the like but I read somewhere that conference tourney games are an exempt way to play more games overall. So you couldn't scrap the tournament and add Hopkins. I don't mind the tournament from the position that as long as the selection criteria isn't going to change and the extra games will help ratings, the league might as well do it (can't beat, 'em join 'em).

That said, I'd rather it not be played the week before the NCAA tournament. Why not advance it all a week or two and allow teams to play one game tuneups the last week of the season (bring Hobart back to Slope Day!). The ACC gets the best of every world at the moment. RPI padding tournament plus a few more weeks of scheduling other teams after their meaningless tournament. Of course, as more conferences start up tournies, the ACC will run out of opponents to schedule on conference tournament weekend.

Chris '03
Also, I am not too familiar with lax game limits and the like but I read somewhere that conference tourney games are an exempt way to play more games overall. So you couldn't scrap the tournament and add Hopkins.

Syracuse plays fifteen games with no tournament, and Hopkins fourteen with no tournament. So it's not an NCAA game limitation issue. If it's an Ivy issue, it seems to me if playing two additional Ivy teams in a tournament is OK why not allow one or two additional non-Ivy games?

Al DeFlorio

Chris '03
Also, I am not too familiar with lax game limits and the like but I read somewhere that conference tourney games are an exempt way to play more games overall. So you couldn't scrap the tournament and add Hopkins.

Syracuse plays fifteen games with no tournament, and Hopkins fourteen with no tournament. So it's not an NCAA game limitation issue. If it's an Ivy issue, it seems to me if playing two additional Ivy teams in a tournament is OK why not allow one or two additional non-Ivy games?

It is in the Ivy League's interest to be hypocritical in precisely this way.

That said, I agree with you in principle; I'd rather have more top-flight OOC competition rather than a tournament AND I'd rather have the regular season champion get the autobid.

IIRC there is total game limit per academic year (e.g. 2010-11) a school can play. This includes regular season games, scrimmages and fall ball - the allotment can be determined by each program. I believe this runs in parallel with the number of overseen official practices that must be logged that coaches can run and attend - hence the need for "captains practices." I do not know the exact number but I recall it being something around 18 total and Ivies may have dropped that even lower.

Harvard leading Penn at the half in game one, 8-3.

Al DeFlorio
Harvard leading Penn at the half in game one, 8-3.

Harvard sucks.

Penn sucks.

That's a lot of suck for one game.

Harvard 12 Penn 8 Final

Anyone getting RedCast?

With the tourney being webcast live on ESPN3, presumably Redcast is not in the mix.

4-1 Yale in the 1st. Fiore is simply not reacting to anything. I had hope to see West start tonight, but we'll likely see him sooner than later

Also we're getting whipped at the X, predictably so since Yale has been great all season. But we have to find a way to at least win a few.

Beeeej
With the tourney being webcast live on ESPN3, presumably Redcast is not in the mix.

In fact, it IS in the mix, but available late, as usual. Live now.

4-2 end of 1 after Mike O'Neill scores his second of the quarter in the final minute off of a Pannell feed. Yale's playing well, and it looks like it will be a struggle all game.

Cornell starting to roll. Now 5-4 Big Red.

6-4 at halftime.

Mock from Lau with 7 seconds left in the half. Halftime score 6-4 CU.

Really nice second quarter. Getting that 2 goal cushion was obviously huge. That last goal really deserved two assists. Great use of the timeout to set that up. Rob really on his game tonight. Negatives so far are faceoffs and AJ. Noble is at least competing on faceoffs so we have time to get in a decent defensive position after he loses them.

UNC up 5-2 on Notre Dame at the half on ESPNU also.

Beeeej
With the tourney being webcast live on ESPN3, presumably Redcast is not in the mix.

Nor should Redcast be. ESPN doing an incredible job broadcast this online: excellent quality (I'm watching on a 30" monitor), and tight camera angles that CBS College Sports (?) last week ignored CU-Princeton game in order to show 30 and 40 yard swaths of field. OK, the announcers did no reading up pregame ... noidea what Slope Day is ("a hill somewhere in town" ... keep saying Cornell when they mean Yale ... but they did a good job talking about Pannell's start stop moves and fluid passing (which Pannell then demonstrates repeatedly).

Agreed - after taking a minute or so to resolve, ESPN3's feed quality and consistency is excellent.

Ya think falling behind early is a new strategy to address the problem of blowing big half-time leads?

billhoward

Beeeej
With the tourney being webcast live on ESPN3, presumably Redcast is not in the mix.

Nor should Redcast be. ESPN doing an incredible job broadcast this online: excellent quality (I'm watching on a 30" monitor), and tight camera angles that CBS College Sports (?) last week ignored CU-Princeton game in order to show 30 and 40 yard swaths of field. OK, the announcers did no reading up pregame ... noidea what Slope Day is ("a hill somewhere in town" ... keep saying Cornell when they mean Yale ... but they did a good job talking about Pannell's start stop moves and fluid passing (which Pannell then demonstrates repeatedly).

They also said that we only lost once this season (to Virginia), and that our 5-4 lead was our first lead of the day.

Beeeej
Agreed - after taking a minute or so to resolve, ESPN3's feed quality and consistency is excellent.

Video has been excellent, but throughout the Harvard-Penn game they kept saying Cornell had only one loss and that the winner of Sunday's game would be Ivy League champion.

Ronald '09
They also said that we only lost once this season (to Virginia), and that our 5-4 lead was our first lead of the day.

Maybe they stopped off at Slope Day for a couple quick drinks.

Pannell has 5 points on 8 goals now. CU 8-4 6:39 to play 3rd.

Ronald '09
They also said that we only lost once this season (to Virginia), and that our 5-4 lead was our first lead of the day.

And made much of this being the first time - ever! - Harvard is in the Ivy lax tournament title game.

Ronald '09


UNC up 5-2 on Notre Dame at the half on ESPNU also.

7-4 UNC over ND at the end of the third.

9-5 end of 3. Moving Noble to take most of the faceoffs has paid off nicely. Even though he's not winning most of them, he's getting a stalemate which allows us to have a 50/50 shot at the GB. Also, Fiore's been making some saves -- kudos to him after a rough start following a bad game last week.

Now 10-5 and 6? points for Pannell.

Why is Pannell trying for that big hit on the sideline? Nothing good can come of it (just like the hit near the end of the Princeton game)

The ESPN announcers didn't realize it was a penalty on Cornell, even though it was obvious Yale had the extra man.

11-7 with 13 second left, though I assume by the time I submit this the game will be over.

UNC 8, UND 7 with 42 seconds to go. If UNC holds on, we should pass Notre Dame for 2nd in RPI, at least temporarily.

EDIT: Irish tie it with 13 seconds to go. On to overtime. Irish with 48 seconds left on man up. Ball was on ground at end of regulation, so they'll face off.

Tar Heels win! They won the faceoff to start OT and held the ball until the penalty expired, then took it to the cage and scored. Huge collapse at the end of regulation by the Tar Heels, followed by a huge mistake by the Irish not holding onto the ball as time was expiring in regulation.

Ronald '09
UNC 8, UND 7 with 42 seconds to go. If UNC holds on, we should pass Notre Dame for 2nd in RPI, at least temporarily.

EDIT: Irish tie it with 13 seconds to go. On to overtime. Irish with 48 seconds left on man up. Ball was on ground at end of regulation, so they'll face off.

UNC 9-8 on their first possession of the faceoff.

UNC with a reputation for folding late in the game, late in the season ... Notre Dame with bad luck in OT games when it counts. Could've gone either way. Does Notre Dame drop out of the top 4 seeds now?

Second game in a row when we've played terribly in the first quarter (Fiore was poor but the team was bad all-around). Turned things around, got Yale on the back foot, and rolled after that. From where I was sitting (on the west side of the stadium) it looked like the Yale player had gotten a cheap shot in on Pannell, so I was surprised that Pannell got penalized for it. He looked a little shaken up, but hopefully he'll be okay for Sunday.

Oh, and I hugged all the Yale players and gave them cookies after the game so that they would feel better.

On TV, for the second game in a row, Pannell ran an opposing player out of bounds with more vigor than the officials felt necessary.

I went back and watched it again on ESPN3...it was definitely the right call. From where I was sitting it looked like Pannell had taken the hit because he went flying.

Not really related, but Stony Brook just lost to Hartford on a goal with 1 second left in America East championship game, so Hartford gets automatic bid to NCAAs. The probably knocks some bubble team out of the field. Amazing story for Hartford, which had a bunch of losing seasons in a row.

dbilmes
Not really related, but Stony Brook just lost to Hartford on a goal with 1 second left in America East championship game, so Hartford gets automatic bid to NCAAs. The probably knocks some bubble team out of the field. Amazing story for Hartford, which had a bunch of losing seasons in a row.

It is somewhat related because if we win tomorrow and get the 2 seed, that's probably our first round opponent. Hartford I would expect to be 15th ahead of the MAAC champion only.

Colgate also upset Maryland. Not sure if that's enough to get the Raiders in with their losses two Vermont and Binghamton, and also I would expect Maryland is still in.

Ronald '09
It is somewhat related because if we win tomorrow and get the 2 seed, that's probably our first round opponent. Hartford I would expect to be 15th ahead of the MAAC champion only.

Hartford's face-off kid really dominated Stony Brook's Adam Rand today.

Al DeFlorio

Ronald '09
It is somewhat related because if we win tomorrow and get the 2 seed, that's probably our first round opponent. Hartford I would expect to be 15th ahead of the MAAC champion only.

Hartford's face-off kid really dominated Stony Brook's Adam Rand today.

And that applies to us because ... oh, right. Perhaps someone from the wrestling team knows how how to hold a lacrosse stick? Right about now, you have fantasies of what if Jeff Foote moonlighted as a defenseman ... or Matt Moulson having finished with hockey senior year took more one crack at lacrosse.

Once again, the 11:30 RedCast isn't up yet at 11:42.

ESPN3 looks great. Pannell scores early, 1-0 Cornell.

Any updates?

Al DeFlorio
Once again, the 11:30 RedCast isn't up yet at 11:42.

From cornellbigred.com: "Live video will not be available through RedCast due to ESPN's exclusive broadcast rights." (Edit: it says there is RedCast audio, which could be faulty as it always seems to be.)

2-1 Cornell after first quarter. AJ made a couple of big saves late in the period.

2-2. Cornell not looking good on offense since scoring two early goals.

kingpin248

Al DeFlorio
Once again, the 11:30 RedCast isn't up yet at 11:42.

From cornellbigred.com: "Live video will not be available through RedCast due to ESPN's exclusive broadcast rights." (Edit: it says there is RedCast audio, which could be faulty as it always seems to be.)

Yes, I know there's no video. But there should be pre-game audio where you can hear the coaches discuss the game.

I don't understand why they can't get Pannell into the game on offense. Seems to me he can dodge away from his d-man and get open for a pass. Cornell is just letting Harvard dictate how we play offense.

Cornell has gone nearly 20 minutes without a goal. Harvard goalie has made some good saves, but we've also done a poor job of finishing our chances.

3-2 Cornell. We have a 3-minute PP due to an illegal Harvard stick. The player stays in the box for the entire 3 minutes.

4-2. Another PP goal. That will teach Harvard for cheating!

3 minutes non-releasable man up = 2 Cornell goals in the first 1:30. Red lead 4-2.

When Vaughn took five or six hits that didn't dislodge the ball you knew something was wrong with his stick.

4-2 Red at half. 15 seconds left on man up and we get the ball to start the third.

dbilmes
4-2. Another PP goal. That will teach Harvard for cheating!

I didn't even know Mike Gilligan coached lacrosse.

6-2 early in 3rd.

dbilmes
6-2 early in 3rd.

That's a bit better. Now we can give up a lead in the 3rd!

It's now 7-3 and we actually lead 7-5 on faceoffs won. Midway through the third, though, so lots of time to go. The last three times we've played Sucks we've defeated them by identical scores of 13-12.

10-4 after 3. The story of this weekend has really been Bronzino emerging as a star. He's been solid last year and all this year, but I feel this weekend he's really taken his game to another level.

Al DeFlorio
When Vaughn took five or six hits that didn't dislodge the ball you knew something was wrong with his stick.

Even their sticks suck.

14-5 with 7 minutes left

dbilmes
14-5 with 7 minutes left

15-5. Tough to keep up at this point.

I'm really impressed with how hard our guys are competing defensively with a 10-goal lead. Time to get the starters out of there?

Excellent. Enough of the 13-12 crap.

Trotsky

dbilmes
4-2. Another PP goal. That will teach Harvard for cheating!

I didn't even know Mike Gilligan coached lacrosse.

I guess Amaker's influence at Harvard has spread to lacrosse

From Dan Freshman's in-game blog at Inside Lacrosse:

A rowdy Cornell fan screams for Vaughan's stick to be checked. Minutes later, he gets nabbed for a 3:00 non-releasable for an illegal stick. "A prophet," the press box says. Cornell EMO. Real Winklevoss move from Vaughan, if you know what I mean.

Blog is here: [games.insidelacrosse.com]

Sign of the changing times: Cornell wins its first Ivy lacrosse tournament, as ESPN graphic notes, 15-6, and (announcers) "it seemed as if nobody would be able to match Princeton's dominance," forgetting about the late 1960s to late 1980s.

Nice all-round play. Nice that Cornell didn't get bogged down after the first quarter. Thank you, Cantabs, for the illegal stick that set off the Cornell explosion. Nice defense throughout the game. Balanced scoring which I guess is a way of saying when Pannell doesn't go 4-4, Cornell still does okay. Fiore was more than okay in nets. Pannell didn't get involved in a closing-seconds hard hit play at midfield at game's end this time.

It was a little unsettling to have the annouuncers harping on Pannell as the only real candidate for the 2011 Tewaaraton Trophy. It's not as if Pannell is off anyone's radar. Some voters may look for further signs of excellence in Billy Bitter (NC) as a reason to vote for him.

Sounds as if Penn might have a shot to join Cornell in the NCAA tourament but Harvard played itself out with today's loss. Well, they'll still have their trust funds.

We had a solid game in goal from A.J., and our faceoff percentage was higher than it's been most of the season. Even though, that illegal stick penalty was a real turning point, and we were able to capitalize on it. Let's hope we can keep playing this way for the rest of the month!

Ronald '09
10-4 after 3. The story of this weekend has really been Bronzino emerging as a star. He's been solid last year and all this year, but I feel this weekend he's really taken his game to another level.

I thought he was phenomenal down the stretch last year, good enough for me to notice how effective he was and I don't know lacrosse well enough to always recognize good defensive play when I see it.

billhoward
...Fiore was more than okay in nets.

That's the second game in a row with better than a 60% saves percentage. I'd say that's more than "more than okay."

Feely held Gibbons to one assist and Bronzino held Cohen scoreless. Great D against two tough customers.

Maybe this belongs to its own thread, but today's game on ESPNU had what was for me one of the all-time great commercial moments.

First, the Ivy League had a spot, naming all eight schools, talking about the number of sports in which they compete, and then saying something like, "These young men and women achieve athletic success with academic excellence greater than any other conference in the NCAA." To learn more about the Ivy League and to experience Ivy League sports yourself, go to IvyLeagueSports.com.

Immediately after, this young gal appears in pajamas and says, "I may look like I'm going to sleep, but I'm really going to college. ... To learn more about going to college online go to ...."



(In my day, we actually got dressed and went to class before we went to sleep. And "going online" was something you did to get season hockey tickets.)

I think the ESPN crew figured it out. Once it became clear the game was a blowout, my focus shifted to watching attentively to see if they ran the two commercials back-to-back again. They didn't.

As the postseason continues, there may be more moments for such entertainment excellence.

Demographics of lacrosse viewers are high. ESPN Group is doing a bad job if they can't sell upscale car ads and financial services (not sure SPIDERS count) and instead you get the pajama game coed, hair club, UnhackMyPC.com, and other bottom feeder commercials. We would've had Ron Popeil coming our way if he was still available.

So what was illegal about the Harvard player's stick? How did we know to ask? If it was a legal stick would we have been charged with a "delay of game" or similar penalty?

KenP
So what was illegal about the Harvard player's stick? How did we know to ask? If it was a legal stick would we have been charged with a "delay of game" or similar penalty?

It's not clear that we asked. The Harvard player kept the ball in his stick through a half-dozen checks and, if I recall correctly, rolling on the ground. The refs may have asked to look at the stick.

I took a look in the NCAA rule book. I do see the illegal stick rule on page 18 (three minute non-releasable) and the stick check guidelines in Appendix 1. But I don't see anything regarding consequences for a failed check. Maybe there's a generic section on that but I don't see it in the equipment section.

[www.ncaapublications.com]

Swampy

KenP
So what was illegal about the Harvard player's stick? How did we know to ask? If it was a legal stick would we have been charged with a "delay of game" or similar penalty?

It's not clear that we asked. The Harvard player kept the ball in his stick through a half-dozen checks and, if I recall correctly, rolling on the ground. The refs may have asked to look at the stick.

From today's Ithaca Journal:

DeLuca implored the officials to check Vaughan's stick. They did on the next stoppage, and found it to be illegal. Vaughan was assessed a three-minute, nonreleaseable penalty.

Article here: [www.theithacajournal.com]|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

I'm curious what the deal was with the Harvard assistant coach trying to show the referee some piece of paper. The commentators were saying many players get their sticks checked before the game, I'm wondering if the coaching staff keeps track of this and was saying that his stick had been approved.

Jacob '06
I'm curious what the deal was with the Harvard assistant coach trying to show the referee some piece of paper. The commentators were saying many players get their sticks checked before the game, I'm wondering if the coaching staff keeps track of this and was saying that his stick had been approved.

I was wondering the same thing. It looked like a grammar school kid waving a note excusing his absence from class.

Jacob '06
I'm curious what the deal was with the Harvard assistant coach trying to show the referee some piece of paper. The commentators were saying many players get their sticks checked before the game, I'm wondering if the coaching staff keeps track of this and was saying that his stick had been approved.

Players check their sticks before the game, just so this doesn't happen. However it's not like making weight for wrestling, there is not a specific, before the game check by the officials. You are responsible for your own stick. Now what the paper was, I have no idea. Even if he had a paper saying they had checked his stick before, it wouldn't have mattered in the game.

The old wooden sticks, with rawhide or other laces, were worse as they could more easily stretch and change during the game. You might have to adjust it during the game, to keep it legal.

Al DeFlorio

Jacob '06
I'm curious what the deal was with the Harvard assistant coach trying to show the referee some piece of paper. The commentators were saying many players get their sticks checked before the game, I'm wondering if the coaching staff keeps track of this and was saying that his stick had been approved.

I was wondering the same thing. It looked like a grammar school kid waving a note excusing his absence from class.

It was the players acceptance letter from Haaavaaad. Didn't the ref know that he went to Haaavaaad. For goodness sake this was Haaavaad that was being penalized that just does not happen. It is worse than getting an A-

KenP
So what was illegal about the Harvard player's stick? How did we know to ask? If it was a legal stick would we have been charged with a "delay of game" or similar penalty?

What is usually illegal - or that the coach believes to be illegal - is the depth of the pocket.

ugarte

KenP
So what was illegal about the Harvard player's stick? How did we know to ask? If it was a legal stick would we have been charged with a "delay of game" or similar penalty?

What is usually illegal - or that the coach believes to be illegal - is the depth of the pocket.

I think in this case something was pinched so that the ball wouldn't fall out when turned upside down (as we saw the referee testing the stick before handing it to the official at the desk)...or, as we saw, when you take four or five hard hits while doing several 360 degree spins yet still retain the ball in your stick.

Al DeFlorio

ugarte

KenP
So what was illegal about the Harvard player's stick? How did we know to ask? If it was a legal stick would we have been charged with a "delay of game" or similar penalty?

What is usually illegal - or that the coach believes to be illegal - is the depth of the pocket.

I think in this case something was pinched so that the ball wouldn't fall out when turned upside down (as we saw the referee testing the stick before handing it to the official at the desk)...or, as we saw, when you take four or five hard hits while doing several 360 degree spins yet still retain the ball in your stick.

The broadcast showed the ref checking the stick and the ball not cleanly falling out of the pocket when the stick head was pointed at the ground. What I found amusing was the penalized Harvard player was then shown going to get another stick and, to me, it looked like it, too, was illegal (watch it again if you have it on your DVR; he simulates a stick check and has to pitch his stick past perpendicular to get it to fall out, he then does it again and it looks like the ball just stays in the pocket refusing to come out).

Al DeFlorio

Jacob '06
I'm curious what the deal was with the Harvard assistant coach trying to show the referee some piece of paper. The commentators were saying many players get their sticks checked before the game, I'm wondering if the coaching staff keeps track of this and was saying that his stick had been approved.

I was wondering the same thing. It looked like a grammar school kid waving a note excusing his absence from class.

Someone on the Laxpower forum speculated that, under the direction of the assistant coach, several players had their sticks checked by the refs before the game. The coach then kept a list of the players whose sticks had been checked and handed it to the head coach.

Of course, as others have pointed out, a stick can change as it's used during the game. This is especially true if it's right at the limit and a bit of use puts it out of whack (e.g., a deep pocket made deeper by catching a few hard passes). Players can also adjust their sticks or even switch sticks after the check. So the refs checking sticks before a game is merely a courtesy, and it's the stick used during the game that counts.

In this case, because the ball did not fall out when the stick was held perpendicular to the ground, PennUltimate on the Harvard forum speculates the shooting strings were too tight. This could be because someone tampered with the stick after the refs checked it. It also might be that the refs were busy before the game and only did a cursory stick check. Even if a ref overlooks the perpendicular-falling-out test, the player and his coaches are responsible for making sure the stick is legal.

Jacob '06
I'm curious what the deal was with the Harvard assistant coach trying to show the referee some piece of paper. The commentators were saying many players get their sticks checked before the game, I'm wondering if the coaching staff keeps track of this and was saying that his stick had been approved.

Foxes watching the henhouse.

Al DeFlorio

Swampy

KenP
So what was illegal about the Harvard player's stick? How did we know to ask? If it was a legal stick would we have been charged with a "delay of game" or similar penalty?

It's not clear that we asked. The Harvard player kept the ball in his stick through a half-dozen checks and, if I recall correctly, rolling on the ground. The refs may have asked to look at the stick.

From today's Ithaca Journal:

DeLuca implored the officials to check Vaughan's stick. They did on the next stoppage, and found it to be illegal. Vaughan was assessed a three-minute, nonreleaseable penalty.

Article here: [www.theithacajournal.com]

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