Questions for the Grammar Police...

My co-workers and I have had some debates in the last few weeks over a couple of grammar questions. Since we can't all come to a consensus, I thought I'd throw the questions out here for the eLynah Grammar Police to chime in on...

1) Which of the following statements uses "however" correctly? Or are both correct?

In addition, high humidity will increase particle formation; however, low particle carryover will keep AQI levels Good.

In addition, high humidity will increase particle formation. However, low particle carryover will keep AQI levels Good.

2) What defines a proper place name? For example, Northeast, Southeast, Midwest, and Eastern Seaboard are all capitalized, but what about the following?

Central Ohio or central Ohio?
Southeastern U.S. or southeastern U.S.?
Northern Plains or northern Plains?

I realize that no matter what is said here, I won't be able to convince anyone other than myself to change their way of writing, but I'd at least like to know if I'm doing it right. Besides, I have to entertain myself somehow while working this weekend.

Not trying to complicate things, but...
I've heard so many different "however" philosophies in my life, I won't try to convince you the one I've adopted has any particular authority. Semicolons, however, are debated less. Semicolons connect two complete sentences that would otherwise be separated by a period when one wants to stress the two sentences' connection ("connection" defined by "God knows what". Since semicolons are basically "period lite," I would say that if your use of "however" in either of those sentences is correct then the use of "however" in the other is equally correct.

Dianne 99
My co-workers and I have had some debates in the last few weeks over a couple of grammar questions. Since we can't all come to a consensus, I thought I'd throw the questions out here for the eLynah Grammar Police to chime in on...

1) Which of the following statements uses "however" correctly? Or are both correct?
In addition, high humidity will increase particle formation; however, low particle carryover will keep AQI levels Good.
In addition, high humidity will increase particle formation. However, low particle carryover will keep AQI levels Good.

2) What defines a proper place name? For example, Northeast, Southeast, Midwest, and Eastern Seaboard are all capitalized, but what about the following?
Central Ohio or central Ohio?
Southeastern U.S. or southeastern U.S.?
Northern Plains or northern Plains?
I realize that no matter what is said here, I won't be able to convince anyone other than myself to change their way of writing, but I'd at least like to know if I'm doing it right. Besides, I have to entertain myself somehow while working this weekend.

Both "however" constructs seem okay. In addition to using a semicolon to string together a sentence fragment with a sentence, people sometimes use a semicolon to link two closely related thoughts whether or not grammarians would say it's correct.

For regions, the stylebooks I've used say the four (maybe eight such as the Southeast) regions used as nouns are capitalized: "I'm driving east [not East] to get to the East." However (no semicolon here because the thoughts are so closely linked), your local newspaper capitalizes local regions. It's central Ohio but to the Akron Beacon-Journal it's probably Central Ohio.

It may be Great Plains because, um, it's used so much.

There's a tendency to overcapitalize: Cornell Coach Mike Schafer. It should be coach Mike Schafer. One could argue if you dropped his first name then Coach Schafer as a substitute for Mister would be okay.

billhoward

Dianne 99
2) What defines a proper place name? For example, Northeast, Southeast, Midwest, and Eastern Seaboard are all capitalized, but what about the following?
Central Ohio or central Ohio?
Southeastern U.S. or southeastern U.S.?
Northern Plains or northern Plains?

For regions, the stylebooks I've used say the four (maybe eight such as the Southeast) regions used as nouns are capitalized: "I'm driving east [not East] to get to the East." However (no semicolon here because the thoughts are so closely linked), your local newspaper capitalizes local regions. It's central Ohio but to the Akron Beacon-Journal it's probably Central Ohio.

It may be Great Plains because, um, it's used so much.

I'm inclined to guess that the rules for geographical indicators follow with what Bill said. Another way to think about this, if I'm not mistaken, might be to look at it like you look at titles as regards general terms or specific people. (As in, "There were lots of moms and dads at the Little League game" is correct capitalization, but so is "Mom and Dad came to the baseball game" if you're talking about specific people.) I guess you still need to decide whether "central Ohio" is a region like "Eastern Seaboard" or "Great Plains", or merely a geographical description of a part of Ohio, though, so I'm not sure how much help this is.

Will someone please forcibly remove me from law school? I've gotten far to good at spouting all kinds of drivel and then concluding "I don't know, maybe."

billhoward
There's a tendency to overcapitalize: Cornell Coach Mike Schafer. It should be coach Mike Schafer. One could argue if you dropped his first name then Coach Schafer as a substitute for Mister would be okay.

When you describe him using his official title, the Jay R. Bloom '77 Head Coach of Men's Hockey, I think that's proper enough to justify capitalization.

Dianne 99
1) Which of the following statements uses "however" correctly? Or are both correct?

In addition, high humidity will increase particle formation; however, low particle carryover will keep AQI levels Good.

In addition, high humidity will increase particle formation. However, low particle carryover will keep AQI levels Good.

The American Heritage Book of English Usage, as quote on www.bartleby.com, says the following:

however beginning a sentence.

Sailing in rough weather can be very unpleasant. However, we found it exciting.

Some people say you should never begin a sentence with however when it means “nevertheless” or “on the other hand.” They are probably in the minority. We asked the usage panelists if they observed this rule. Thirty-six percent said “usually or always,” 19 percent said “sometimes,” and 42 percent said “rarely or never.”

[www.bartleby.com]

Trotsky

Dianne 99
1) Which of the following statements uses "however" correctly? Or are both correct?

In addition, high humidity will increase particle formation; however, low particle carryover will keep AQI levels Good.

In addition, high humidity will increase particle formation. However, low particle carryover will keep AQI levels Good.

The American Heritage Book of English Usage, as quote on www.bartleby.com, says the following:

however beginning a sentence.

Sailing in rough weather can be very unpleasant. However, we found it exciting.

Some people say you should never begin a sentence with however when it means “nevertheless” or “on the other hand.” They are probably in the minority. We asked the usage panelists if they observed this rule. Thirty-six percent said “usually or always,” 19 percent said “sometimes,” and 42 percent said “rarely or never.”

[www.bartleby.com]

Just because most people do it one way doesn't make it right (especially in the US, as far as I'm concerned), but since almost all of historical linguistics indicates that languages have been spiraling away from rigid rules toward colloquial usage since the dawn of time, I guess I have to let it go. I would never, for example, deny someone of their right to use the word "donate" just because it was historically an outgrowth of poor vocabulary, and I doubt there's anybody who would. Why? Because that was a long time ago, and these things are ingrained now. I would not be surprised if "whom" drops completely out of use in the next hundred years.

Uh, that said, "however" is essentially a somewhat more formal replacement for "but," which is clearly a conjunction, and conjunctions should never be used to begin sentences (or an independent clause following a semicolon).

Section A Banshee
Just because most people do it one way doesn't make it right

No, but it makes it right in 40 years, if it sticks. That's all "correct" language is -- the way your Mom's 8th grade English teacher spoke in the faculty break room.

Trotsky

Section A Banshee
Just because most people do it one way doesn't make it right

No, but it makes it right in 40 years, if it sticks. That's all "correct" language is -- the way your Mom's 8th grade English teacher spoke in the faculty break room.

Which is what I said right after the part you quoted.

Trotsky
[Some people say you should never begin a sentence with however when it means “nevertheless” or “on the other hand.” They are probably in the minority. We asked the usage panelists if they observed this rule. Thirty-six percent said “usually or always,” 19 percent said “sometimes,” and 42 percent said “rarely or never.”
[www.bartleby.com]

"Is there ever an instance where you could end a sentence with a preposition?"
"Not that I can think of."

Dianne,

I'm curious as to why you're capitalizing Good in your examples. Is it a category that has been defined elsewhere in the text (that we don't have)? You might want to take the time to define this for us in advance to avoid confusing careful Cornell readers.

And remember this: if it's not in Strunk & White, it ain't worth learnin'.

Seriously, do you spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff?

Thanks everyone for the input! It sounds like there isn't one absolute answer. These are excerpts from our daily air quality forecast discussions that we issue for several cities around the country. Some of our clients put these discussions on their websites or send them to local media, so we try very hard to be grammatically correct. Occasionally our discussions are read word for word during local weather segments on the news or have been quoted in newspaper articles about pollution events. Given that we are all scientists, we didn't focus as much on our writing skills in school as we should have...

RatushneyFan, Good is indeed a category that I didn't define for you. Our forecasts are issued by Air Quality Index category, which can be Good, Moderate, Unhealthy For Sensitive Groups, Unhealthy, Very Unhealthy, or Hazardous. If anyone wants more information (or your local air quality forecast!), PM me or check out http:\\www.airnow.gov.

billhoward

Trotsky
[Some people say you should never begin a sentence with however when it means “nevertheless” or “on the other hand.” They are probably in the minority. We asked the usage panelists if they observed this rule. Thirty-six percent said “usually or always,” 19 percent said “sometimes,” and 42 percent said “rarely or never.”
[www.bartleby.com]

"Is there ever an instance where you could end a sentence with a preposition?"
"Not that I can think of."

That's the sort of criticism up with which I cannot put.

Trotsky

billhoward

Trotsky
[Some people say you should never begin a sentence with however when it means “nevertheless” or “on the other hand.” They are probably in the minority. We asked the usage panelists if they observed this rule. Thirty-six percent said “usually or always,” 19 percent said “sometimes,” and 42 percent said “rarely or never.”
[www.bartleby.com]

"Is there ever an instance where you could end a sentence with a preposition?"
"Not that I can think of."

That's the sort of criticism up with which I cannot put.

A man in a faded canvas coat and a "Local 98" cap walks uncertainly through Harvard's campus. He stops another man, who lowers the Peterhouse scarf that was covering his mouth to acknowledge the disturbance.

Man 1: "Hey, pal, can you tell me where the T is at?"

Man 2: "I'd be glad to help you, but here at Hahvahd, we don't end our sentences with prepositions."

Man 1: "Oh. Excuse me... Can you tell me where the T is at, asshole?"

Hillel Hoffmann

Trotsky

billhoward

Trotsky
[Some people say you should never begin a sentence with however when it means “nevertheless” or “on the other hand.” They are probably in the minority. We asked the usage panelists if they observed this rule. Thirty-six percent said “usually or always,” 19 percent said “sometimes,” and 42 percent said “rarely or never.”
[www.bartleby.com]

"Is there ever an instance where you could end a sentence with a preposition?"
"Not that I can think of."

That's the sort of criticism up with which I cannot put.

A man in a faded canvas coat and a "Local 98" cap walks uncertainly through Harvard's campus. He stops another man, who lowers the Peterhouse scarf that was covering his mouth to acknowledge the disturbance.

Man 1: "Hey, pal, can you tell me where the T is at?"

Man 2: "I'd be glad to help you, but here at Hahvahd, we don't end our sentences with prepositions."

Man 1: "Oh. Excuse me... Can you tell me where the T is at, asshole?"

Scene, Harvard-Yale game, Yale Bowl, Men's Restroom. Harvard Man sees Yale Man walking directly from the urinal to the exit.

Harvard Man: "Say, old fellow. At Harvard they teach us wash our hands after using the washroom."

Yale Man: "At Yale, they teach us not to piss on our hands."

Ganderson, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you actually get to say the punchline to that joke in real life at Bright?

billhoward
Harvard Man: "Say, old fellow. At Harvard they teach us wash our hands after using the washroom."

Yale Man: "At Yale, they teach us not to piss on our hands."

I've heard (in person) this joke told with the antagonists being Harvard-MIT and Stanford-Cal. Anybody else hear it with regional substitutions?

I assume this is like "Sieve." Endlessly repeated -- original lost in the mists of time. Peter Abelard (note: ouch) probably made it up at the University of Paris.

Trotsky

billhoward
Harvard Man: "Say, old fellow. At Harvard they teach us wash our hands after using the washroom."

Yale Man: "At Yale, they teach us not to piss on our hands."

I've heard (in person) this joke told with the antagonists being Harvard-MIT and Stanford-Cal. Anybody else hear it with regional substitutions?

I assume this is like "Sieve." Endlessly repeated -- original lost in the mists of time. Peter Abelard (note: ouch) probably made it up at the University of Paris.

Harvard-Yale would seem most likely because of the history of the upperclass making fun of each other. MIT could be a good possibility as a comeback/putdown. And it surely draws chuckes when it's a Vanderbilt man scolding an Alabama rooter, or Baylor vs. Texas A&M. This one cannot be changed so easily:

Jeopardy answer and question
A: Harvard, MIT, and BU.
Q: In Boston, name two colleges and a bridge.

I heard it as a Navy man telling an Army man that in the navy, they don't pee on there hands.

Then there's the one about the young man with seven items at the six-items-or-less express lane at a Cambridge supermarket. The checker asks, "Are you a Harvard student who can't count or an MIT student who can't read?"

Trotsky

billhoward
Harvard Man: "Say, old fellow. At Harvard they teach us wash our hands after using the washroom."

Yale Man: "At Yale, they teach us not to piss on our hands."

I've heard (in person) this joke told with the antagonists being Harvard-MIT and Stanford-Cal. Anybody else hear it with regional substitutions?

First time I heard it, it was Alabama - Auburn, with Auburn as I-don't-wash-and-I'm-proud.