Cornell "Suicide School" NPR Story

Good Morning,

Nothing like waking up to NPR and hearing about a story about Cornell, gorges and suicides. Here is the link to Thursday's 3/18/2010 NPR Morning Edition story on Cornell. I didn't realize that their were 6 deaths on campus this year. That is so sad.

You must have missed this Huffington Post article on the topic.

[www.huffingtonpost.com]

It's a fantastically well researched article on a very sad topic.

An article about it made it in to the NY times yesterday also. I'm too lazy to hunt down the link.

Jacob '06
An article about it made it in to the NY times yesterday also. I'm too lazy to hunt down the link.

It was on the front page.

[www.nytimes.com]

Willy '06
You must have missed this Huffington Post article on the topic.

[www.huffingtonpost.com]

It's a fantastically well researched article on a very sad topic.

Thanks. It is a very good article.

It even made it to the BBC webpage yesterday

I think the sad answer is that the gorges are inhospitable to failed suicide attempts. Most suicide attempts are not successful but a long fall is one a pretty high-percentage way to go: once you get started, it is damn near impossible for anyone else to intervene or for you to change your mind. That's why the Golden Gate study is so interesting. The impulse to jump fades after people are stopped and most unsuccessful jumpers claim that they regret the decision as soon as they are free-falling.

Willy '06
You must have missed this Huffington Post article on the topic.

[www.huffingtonpost.com]

It's a fantastically well researched article on a very sad topic.

Fantastically well researched, to be sure, but spending all that ink recounting the history of suicides involving the gorges, "balanced" only a couple of throwaway mentions of the fact that the suicide rate at Cornell is commensurate with national averages, only serves to further spread the "suicide school" myth. Metaezra's take is certainly worth a read.

Well the guy did write his thesis on the subject... at Columbia.

Willy '06
Well the guy did write his thesis on the subject... at Columbia.

To be fair, he is a Cornell alumnus, and probably one of the best opinion columnists the Sun has had in a long time.

Metaezra's take is certainly worth a read.

Thanks, Josh. For those interested I have added some recommendations today as to what Cornell can do to build a better sense of community on campus. Hopefully nobody will disagree with my last point.

[www.metaezra.com]

mnagowski
Thanks, Josh. For those interested I have added some recommendations today as to what Cornell can do to build a better sense of community on campus. Hopefully nobody will disagree with my last point.

[www.metaezra.com]

I pretty much disagree with each of your suggestions, to varying degrees. (Well, except the last one. Duh.)
1) Require all underclassmen to live in the same dorm for freshman and sophomore years: I agree that having sophomores sta over can be a good thing. My floor in Cascadilla had loads of sophomore holdovers both years and it definitely helped the sense of community. But this works best when the sophs choose to stay. What if you didn't get along with the folks on your dorm floor? Why shouldn't you go elsewhere or get an apartment? Or join a frat? I generally prefer the choice.
2) Seriously consider changes to the academic calendar: Evening prelims can be longer and more comprehensive than in class exams, which serves a solid academic purpose. If profs stick to the Tuesday/Thursday schedule (assuming they still do) they're pretty easy to predict and shouldn't conflict much with extra-currics. I'd consider this a relatively minor disagreement; abolishing evening prelims wouldn't be a horrible thing but I don't really see the advantage either.
3) Develop a more common educational experience for all undergraduates. As an egineering student I disagree with this strongly. Unless you're going to have the common experience be a rigorous science/math focused curriculum it just doesn't work for engineers without going back to a five year program (not going to happen). On top of that, I just don't see the advantage of a common curriculum. Within a college maybe.
4) Increased focus on public engagement and hands-on service learning: I can't support a requirement for this kind of thing. If you want to go out and be involved then great. If you want to have an academic focused education then that's great too.

I feel more strongly about 3 and 4. (And 5. Duh!)

I feel more strongly about 3 and 4. (And 5. Duh!)

I think you read my points 3 and 4 too narrowly, and not as expansively as I had in mind.

For instance, with a core curriculum, I would want every student to required to take some classes in the humanities, mathematics, natural sciences, hard sciences, and social sciences. Engineers can still take calculus for engineers, but hotelies and architects should also be required to take a course in calculus and statistics. Likewise, engineers and biology majors should be required to take courses in English (Pynchon? Shakespeare? Austen?) and the social sciences.

Think of it as university-wide distribution requirements.

And with 4, I'm not suggesting that every student needs to scrub floors at the local food pantry, but that students should have field-appropriate, public-engagement minded, learning opportunities.

And that these opportunities can be integrated into the curriculum. Mechanical engineers might, for instance, take a course that revolves around improving safety in automobiles. English majors might take a course that studies the way that incarceration is portrayed in literature and work with local prison populations in helping them get their GED. Architects design a house for Habitat for Humanity, etc. Not certain what classic majors should do.

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I worked for suicide prevention in Ithaca, the stats were that 90% of all suicides that had taken place on the Cornell campus (hello: gorges) were non-students. The idea of a high suicide rate among the Cornell student body was pure myth.

I am certainly no expert on the topic but I have always felt that suicides among people who are not already "mentally ill" (e.g. depression) are very rare. Someone "normal" wouldn't jump off of a bridge because they flunked out or felt pressure.

Sure, creating a sense of community and reducing pressure could reduce the triggers that cause a mentally ill person to take his/her life and is probably a good dea in general. But shouldn't the number one thing to suggest be to screen for and treat existing disorders or encourage people who are suffering to get help?

I live in Palo Alto where there have been a number of teen suicides in the past two years that have been well publicized (they were by jumping in front of a commuter train). There is plenty of talk about too much pressure on kids to get int the best schools etc. But again, I feel that most of the students who took their lives were already suffering. In some cases, this is not known due to the wishes of the family. In other cases, the family chooses to reveal this fact in the hope that others can be helped.

I have a friend who suffers from depression and sometime speaks of suicide. Other friends make suggestions to him about getting out of the house more and trying to do fun things. But he explains that when he feels bad it is like a blackness that envelopes him and he simply can't go out and have fun. In other words, there is a real physical thing (chemical imbalance in the brain?) that is wrong and needs to be fixed. If I am not mistaken, we now know this to be true.

I view suicide as a fatal symptom of a disease. We should treat the disease first and foremost.

I view suicide as a fatal symptom of a disease. We should treat the disease first and foremost.

I agree. But the psychiatrist on NPR today said that Cornell's mental health programs set a 'gold standard' across the country. So I looked at possible second order effects.

There's no question depression is biological, and it's also hereditary. Stress is a trigger for major episodes.
The problem is that those episodes can happen before you're prepared to do something about it. Once you're in it, it's damned hard to pull out of it, and it doesn't turn around quickly. I know.

My opinion is that the key is identifying someone who is having a problem and getting them help - treating them pharmaceutically and therapeutically - because odds are, they're not going to be able to do it by themselves. And speaking from personal experience, even that is not something quick or easy. I've been in treatment for 16 years and I don't doubt it'll be quite a few more. I had a friend who was being treated, who thought she was doing OK, and then just as suddenly she turned for the worse and killed herself.

So if you know anyone who you think is at risk, don't hesitate. Talk to them. Make sure they're OK. And if they're not, encourage them to seek help.

Jeff Hopkins '82
So if you know anyone who you think is at risk, don't hesitate. Talk to them. Make sure they're OK. And if they're not, encourage them to seek help.

Amen. Even then, it is a tough battle, but people with this disease definitely can't fight alone. I had a good friend in high school who had everything in the world going for him (star of the soccer team, Eagle Scout, went on to graduate with honors in CS from Va Tech, etc), but eventually just couldn't beat it even though he was getting the best care in the world. Absolutely tragic.

Suicide rate is about 15 per 100,000 for college students. Cornell is within that norm. As others note, gorge suicides are more public and attempts are more successful.

The No. 1 cause of death for people < 25 is auto accidents. That's the biggest tragedy.

For what it's worth, this is the e-mail that we as students recieved last night regarding the situation:

VP Communications to me

show details 9:16 PM (19 hours ago)

We have been inspired by the many ways in which members of our community - students, faculty, staff, parents, and alumni - have reached out to one another with compassion and concern. We truly are a caring community.

In this spirit, we will continue to seek ways to make the campus safer. Over the next week, Cornell will begin installing temporary fences on the sides of the campus bridges. This will allow us more time to consider long-term solutions appropriate to our circumstances.

The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline Steering Committee, among others, advocates bridge barriers as a most effective means of suicide prevention. This decision was made after due consideration and consulting with officials from the City of Ithaca and Tomkins County. For more information, visit [caringcommunity.cornell.edu]. Please contact my office, at 607.255.9929, if you have any questions.

Have a pleasant break. Take care of yourself, and others. We will see everyone back on campus on the 29th.

Sincerely,

Thomas Bruce
Vice President, University Communications

Jeff Hopkins '82
There's no question depression is biological, and it's also hereditary. Stress is a trigger for major episodes.
The problem is that those episodes can happen before you're prepared to do something about it. Once you're in it, it's damned hard to pull out of it, and it doesn't turn around quickly. I know.

My opinion is that the key is identifying someone who is having a problem and getting them help - treating them pharmaceutically and therapeutically - because odds are, they're not going to be able to do it by themselves. And speaking from personal experience, even that is not something quick or easy. I've been in treatment for 16 years and I don't doubt it'll be quite a few more. I had a friend who was being treated, who thought she was doing OK, and then just as suddenly she turned for the worse and killed herself.

So if you know anyone who you think is at risk, don't hesitate. Talk to them. Make sure they're OK. And if they're not, encourage them to seek help.

Wow. Thanks for sharing your personal story.

I assume that stress triggers must be a long-term thing. Otherwise being a die-hard hockey fan is probably not a good idea. When Cornell playoff games go into OT I am so stressed out that I want to barf. My heart rate for the recent women's championship game must have been about 200.

I really don't like the idea of fences. Maybe it's just because it is too close to the urban legend about nets under the bridges during exam time.

Willy '06
I really don't like the idea of fences. Maybe it's just because it is too close to the urban legend about nets under the bridges during exam time.

Would nets tempt drunken fraterity brothers to try pranks? How do they know the nets really hold?

"University Installs Fences on Campus Bridges"

[cornellsun.com]

I also wonder if fences could have some "unintended consequences." Yes, they may make it a little harder to jump, and they could even convince someone not to jump, but every undergrad who walks by those fences will think about suicide when they do. I haven no idea what that means, but I'd hope that the administration has taken a research based approach to taking the right action.

Between the off-court media attention and the fences, this will not look good for pre-frosh week. I remember walking over the suspension bridge when I visited as a pre-frosh and thinking how awesome the view was and loving it. The bounce of the bridge with each step was like nothing else.

The experience certainly wasn't the decisive factor, but I hope that all students get to see the view.

Don't ask me for an alternative - I have no clue what would work and what would just look like it will work.

I think this whole fence thing is just a complete over reaction, a fence might take away the impulse but if someone has enough mental issues to want to commit suicide, will a fence really stop them? I thought a big problem with how the Sun and Cornell handled the first suicide was that they gave it so much attention, broadcasting the student's name, putting his picture everywhere, etc. I am not saying they should keep quiet about it but they dont need to release a name and they dont need to put it on the front page

phillysportsfan
I think this whole fence thing is just a complete over reaction, a fence might take away the impulse but if someone has enough mental issues to want to commit suicide, will a fence really stop them?

Research says yes. That suicidal impulses are very often... impulsive. There are some people who attempt suicide until they succeed but many who are deterred get the help that they need.

At least nobody made a shirt about it.

I'll throw it out there that I'd rather have the beautiful views from the bridges than save two lives a year: those views enrich the lives of tens of thousands each year. Of course, what would be even better would be to have both: figure out some other way to identify potentially suicidal people before they get to the point of wanting to jump off a bridge.

Yes, yes, we've all read Harrison Bergeron.

Kyle Rose
I'll throw it out there that I'd rather have the beautiful views from the bridges than save two lives a year: those views enrich the lives of tens of thousands each year. Of course, what would be even better would be to have both: figure out some other way to identify potentially suicidal people before they get to the point of wanting to jump off a bridge.

UPDATE: [www.theonion.com]

ugarte

Kyle Rose
I'll throw it out there that I'd rather have the beautiful views from the bridges than save two lives a year: those views enrich the lives of tens of thousands each year. Of course, what would be even better would be to have both: figure out some other way to identify potentially suicidal people before they get to the point of wanting to jump off a bridge.

UPDATE: [www.theonion.com]

Update to the update: Gannett strenuously objects to the Onion piece.

Bridge fences come down in time for graduation and Reunion Weekend.

George64
Bridge fences come down in time for graduation and Reunion Weekend.

Good to see sanity half-restored.

Trotsky

George64
Bridge fences come down in time for graduation and Reunion Weekend.

Good to see sanity half-restored.

Well, apparently this doesn't yet apply to all bridges -- "Fall Creek Suspension Bridge closed June 10 - July 8. The suspension bridge over Fall Creek and the staircase on south end to University Avenue will be closed beginning Monday, June 10 through Monday, July 8 to complete work for the Bridge Means Restriction project."

George64

Trotsky

George64
Bridge fences come down in time for graduation and Reunion Weekend.

Good to see sanity half-restored.

Well, apparently this doesn't yet apply to all bridges -- "Fall Creek Suspension Bridge closed June 10 - July 8. The suspension bridge over Fall Creek and the staircase on south end to University Avenue will be closed beginning Monday, June 10 through Monday, July 8 to complete work for the Bridge Means Restriction project."

I hope this means the suicide barriers on that bridge are coming down, too: that view has been ruined for at least as long as I have been affiliated with Cornell. Anyone know when those barriers went up? The restoration of that view would be magical.

Kyle Rose
I hope this means the suicide barriers on that bridge are coming down, too: that view has been ruined for at least as long as I have been affiliated with Cornell. Anyone know when those barriers went up? The restoration of that view would be magical.

They did not exist in 1986. I recall seeing them for the first time on a hockey trip and thinking, "Holy shit. That's the ugliest thing I have ever seen."

Possibly third to the death of the elms and the rape of the Ag quad as the worst thing to happen to the campus.

Kyle Rose
I hope this means the suicide barriers on that bridge are coming down, too: that view has been ruined for at least as long as I have been affiliated with Cornell. Anyone know when those barriers went up? The restoration of that view would be magical.

From the Chronicle, August 23, 2012: "Phase 1 involves simultaneous work on the Stone Arch Bridge, Trolley Bridge and Thurston Avenue Bridge. Phase 2 entails installation on two Stewart Avenue bridges and Beebe Dam Bridge. These bridges will have horizontal nets installed underneath them, extending about 15 feet out on both sides. The nets are made of 3-millimeter steel cables spaced 5.5 inches apart. Phase 3 involves the Suspension Bridge, which, unlike the other bridges, will be wrapped in the steel mesh. "The nature of a suspension bridge is much different from a truss bridge," Keefe said. "It moves, up and down and horizontally. Due to the structure, we couldn't do a below-deck system. That's why we went with this system; I call it a 'sock.' It basically wraps the bridge itself."

architectural renderings of suicide barriers

It appears that once the steel mesh is installed, the present barriers will be removed. I think that they were installed in the mid-70s.

George64
architectural renderings of suicide barriers

Hey, slide 5 is from Bern! Of course I remember a tour guide telling me the nets were to keep jumpers from landing in the neighborhood below, not to save them from dying.

phillysportsfan
I think this whole fence thing is just a complete over reaction, a fence might take away the impulse but if someone has enough mental issues to want to commit suicide, will a fence really stop them?

Apparently not.

ugarte

phillysportsfan
I think this whole fence thing is just a complete over reaction, a fence might take away the impulse but if someone has enough mental issues to want to commit suicide, will a fence really stop them?

Research says yes. That suicidal impulses are very often... impulsive. There are some people who attempt suicide until they succeed but many who are deterred get the help that they need.

I've the same or similar research as Ugarte. Skorton has, too, and has mentioned that barricades and also the Call for Help signs on the bridges and also in the restroom stalls (they seem to have replaced graffiti) do have some effect. People who call for help, are talked down, or interrupted don't always try again.

A very different type of suicide involving Cornell professor Sandy Bem. Unusual access to a very personal decision.Sandy Bem

Since this thread started with a link to an NPR story, I'll note that within the past 10 days, there have been two such stories about MIT:

[www.npr.org]
[www.npr.org]

my niece is now a freshman in high school and is starting to look at colleges. I had lunch with her yesterday and it was a rare day when a teenager was in a chatty mood. She has been researching colleges in the northeast and has been checking out the IVY league schools. she wanted to know what was up with Cornell, the gorges and suicides. oh dear. I was not anticipating that discussion over lunch.

She is favoring (at least today) going to school in the city so she is intrigued by Columbia and UPENN. You should have seen the look I got when I asked about Dartmouth.

for those of you who used to go to the Estero holiday tournament, this is my "little" red-headed niece who is now 8 months away from being able to legally drive.

Rita
my niece is now a freshman in high school and is starting to look at colleges. I had lunch with her yesterday and it was a rare day when a teenager was in a chatty mood. She has been researching colleges in the northeast and has been checking out the IVY league schools. she wanted to know what was up with Cornell, the gorges and suicides. oh dear. I was not anticipating that discussion over lunch.

She is favoring (at least today) going to school in the city so she is intrigued by Columbia and UPENN. You should have seen the look I got when I asked about Dartmouth.

for those of you who used to go to the Estero holiday tournament, this is my "little" red-headed niece who is now 8 months away from being able to legally drive.

When I travelled to Cornell’s last Frozen Four appearance, I made a side trip to meet my 6-day old niece. She’s starting college this fall. Cannot believe it has been that long. And that ECAC teams have won 11% of the titles in that span. Ugh.

Rita
my niece is now a freshman in high school and is starting to look at colleges. I had lunch with her yesterday and it was a rare day when a teenager was in a chatty mood. She has been researching colleges in the northeast and has been checking out the IVY league schools. she wanted to know what was up with Cornell, the gorges and suicides. oh dear. I was not anticipating that discussion over lunch.

She is favoring (at least today) going to school in the city so she is intrigued by Columbia and UPENN. You should have seen the look I got when I asked about Dartmouth.

for those of you who used to go to the Estero holiday tournament, this is my "little" red-headed niece who is now 8 months away from being able to legally drive.

Hard to believe that cute little Cornell fan is focusing on college. Does she realize she's focusing on the only two Ivies without a hockey team?

jkahn

Rita
my niece is now a freshman in high school and is starting to look at colleges. I had lunch with her yesterday and it was a rare day when a teenager was in a chatty mood. She has been researching colleges in the northeast and has been checking out the IVY league schools. she wanted to know what was up with Cornell, the gorges and suicides. oh dear. I was not anticipating that discussion over lunch.

She is favoring (at least today) going to school in the city so she is intrigued by Columbia and UPENN. You should have seen the look I got when I asked about Dartmouth.

for those of you who used to go to the Estero holiday tournament, this is my "little" red-headed niece who is now 8 months away from being able to legally drive.

Hard to believe that cute little Cornell fan is focusing on college. Does she realize she's focusing on the only two Ivies without a hockey team?

Apparently Boston doesn't count as a city.

jtwcornell91

jkahn

Rita
my niece is now a freshman in high school and is starting to look at colleges. I had lunch with her yesterday and it was a rare day when a teenager was in a chatty mood. She has been researching colleges in the northeast and has been checking out the IVY league schools. she wanted to know what was up with Cornell, the gorges and suicides. oh dear. I was not anticipating that discussion over lunch.

She is favoring (at least today) going to school in the city so she is intrigued by Columbia and UPENN. You should have seen the look I got when I asked about Dartmouth.

for those of you who used to go to the Estero holiday tournament, this is my "little" red-headed niece who is now 8 months away from being able to legally drive.

Hard to believe that cute little Cornell fan is focusing on college. Does she realize she's focusing on the only two Ivies without a hockey team?

Apparently Boston doesn't count as a city.

i'm hoping as she looks more into the different schools, boston will start to rise. unfortunately, Molly is not too much into sports. but it is early yet, and she is 15. this could all change in 6 months.

Rita

jtwcornell91

jkahn

Rita
my niece is now a freshman in high school and is starting to look at colleges. I had lunch with her yesterday and it was a rare day when a teenager was in a chatty mood. She has been researching colleges in the northeast and has been checking out the IVY league schools. she wanted to know what was up with Cornell, the gorges and suicides. oh dear. I was not anticipating that discussion over lunch.

She is favoring (at least today) going to school in the city so she is intrigued by Columbia and UPENN. You should have seen the look I got when I asked about Dartmouth.

for those of you who used to go to the Estero holiday tournament, this is my "little" red-headed niece who is now 8 months away from being able to legally drive.

Hard to believe that cute little Cornell fan is focusing on college. Does she realize she's focusing on the only two Ivies without a hockey team?

Apparently Boston doesn't count as a city.

i'm hoping as she looks more into the different schools, boston will start to rise. unfortunately, Molly is not too much into sports. but it is early yet, and she is 15. this could all change in 6 months.

When my younger sister was looking at colleges, I invited her to come to Cornell and spend a weekend with me and some friends. One of the things we did was go to a concert at Barton Hall. After the visit, she decided she wasn't interested in Cornell because it was "too big."

She went to Penn instead.