Hooray for MetaEzra

From today's posting titled "Cornell Has Dropped Enhanced Financial Aid For Athletes":

The good news, however, is that Cornell does not appear to have been restricted from offering enhanced financial aid to select non-athletes. Which means there should be no reason why we can't continue to have the best marching band in the Ivy League.

You're goddamn right we do.

Heh. Thanks for the shout out.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: either Cornell figures out a way to reduce tuition across the board (that is, in a non-discriminatory way with regard to athletes/non-athletes) or it loses its ability to compete for the best athletes as the richer schools in the league charge less and less. Witness the recent rise of Yale as an ECAC hockey power (such as it is).

Here's an interesting comparison from Cornell's department of planning and budget:

[dpb.cornell.edu]

Note the widening gap between Yale/Princeton and Cornell, and Cornell's near-$2000 jump between 07-08 and 08-09. And this is just the full-freight price: my understanding is that the other schools are willing and able to steepen the contribution curve such that students from even upper-middle class families pay close to nothing. The $2214 difference between Cornell and Princeton may not seem like a whole lot compared to the total cost, but (a) it adds up over 4 years and (b) Cornell's already fighting an uphill battle for the best students and the best athletes against its more prestigious brethren, whether we like to admit that uncomfortable truth or not.

If the atheltic recruiting aid disparities continue in the Ivy League, so be it. Academics can't take a back seat to athletics, ever.

imafrshmn
If the atheltic recruiting aid disparities continue in the Ivy League, so be it. Academics can't take a back seat to athletics, ever.

Wrestling, lacrosse, hockey, and basketball seem to be surviving.

Al DeFlorio

imafrshmn
If the atheltic recruiting aid disparities continue in the Ivy League, so be it. Academics can't take a back seat to athletics, ever.

Wrestling, lacrosse, hockey, and basketball seem to be surviving.

The deeper issue is that the aid packages affect more than just the athletes -- they affect everybody. So if Princeton is making aid packages to middle-class students that Cornell can't even touch, the academic caliber of Cornell will be pressured.

A lot of our sports are more than surviving -- they are thriving. However, it's fair to say that the dynasty teams of the last four years were largely recruited prior to Harvard & Co. really upping the ante in the aid department. So we need to see what the next five years bring. The fact that Yale and Princeton have started to furnish some decent hockey teams may foreshadow future changes.

mnagowski

Al DeFlorio

imafrshmn
If the atheltic recruiting aid disparities continue in the Ivy League, so be it. Academics can't take a back seat to athletics, ever.

Wrestling, lacrosse, hockey, and basketball seem to be surviving.

The deeper issue is that the aid packages affect more than just the athletes -- they affect everybody. So if Princeton is making aid packages to middle-class students that Cornell can't even touch, the academic caliber of Cornell will be pressured.

I agree that this is the key issue. I'm tired of Noel whining about this publicly. He's supposed to be a senior executive, and whining is not how to get things in an organization.

Wrestling, lacrosse, and hockey seem to be continuing to recruit successfully, by the way. Look at next year's incoming wrestling class. No one ever said it would be easy.

I agree that this is the key issue. I'm tired of Noel whining about this publicly. He's supposed to be a senior executive, and whining is not how to get things in an organization.

Just imagine all of the bickering inside the Ivy League office.

Al DeFlorio
I agree that this is the key issue. I'm tired of Noel whining about this publicly. He's supposed to be a senior executive, and whining is not how to get things in an organization.

Publicly whining may be a tactic to apply pressure.

It would be great to see the real numbers, but it looks like the issue is roughly:

Level 1: Up to some magic "middle class" number for parental income (I dunno, $200k?) the packages and the recruiting incentive are the same.

Level 2: For some interval above that (say 200-400), Cornell aid shades off in comparison with HYP.

Level 3: Above some magic "upper middle class" number (400), the Idle Rich pay with pin money, so once again no discrepancy.

Level 2 is probably a very large chunk, even a plurality, of the overall Ivy population. As the most attractive candidates from that group are snapped up by HYP, what happens? There are A LOT more qualified candidates than HYP slots, so the net effect is either to shift the mean parental income of Cornell students lower -- which means Cornell wouldn't realize any increase in revenue (a self-defeating policy, and so by the Law of Conservation of Irony almost certainly what happens), or replacement by other slightly less attractive yet still qualified Level 2 candidates who make it in over (presumably less attractive, unless Cornell has a tuition-conscious thumb on the scale) Level 1 candidates.

Is the difference really that significant between, say, the 5th and 15th most attractive X in Level 2? If X = Goalie, yes. Cellist, probably. Engineer or English major? Nah, the pools are just so much bigger and flatter.

I doubt it hurts us much, if at all, academically (it may have a salutary effect of letting a few more proles into Ithaca, and god knows it needs them).

Athletically, it probably hurts like a bitch.

Trotsky

Publicly whining may be a tactic to apply pressure.

Whining in public is a lousy management tactic if you're trying to influence your own senior management. It makes you look impotent and transparent, while pissing off your bosses. You build your case internally and recruit influential stakeholders privately to support your position.

Al DeFlorio
Whining in public is a lousy management tactic if you're trying to influence your own senior management. It makes you look impotent and transparent, while pissing off your bosses. You build your case internally and recruit influential stakeholders privately to support your position.

I didn't say it was a good tactic. You see it all the time when things get political. Or Andy may just not be very professional.

Trotsky

Al DeFlorio
Whining in public is a lousy management tactic if you're trying to influence your own senior management. It makes you look impotent and transparent, while pissing off your bosses. You build your case internally and recruit influential stakeholders privately to support your position.

I didn't say it was a good tactic. You see it all the time when things get political. Or Andy may just not be very professional.

That was my point above.

Another thought on the general topic: Princeton's endowment per student is such that a "keeping-up-with-Princeton's-aid-packages" strategy would eventually put Cornell out of business.

Al DeFlorio
Another thought on the general topic: Princeton's endowment per student is such that a "keeping-up-with-Princeton's-aid-packages" strategy would eventually put Cornell out of business.

That was exactly my point, and has been on this topic for many years. I have no serious skin in the game, so I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it; I'm simply curious to see how Cornell resolves the issue over time because from this vantage point Cornell doesn't have a whole lot of options: it either figures out how to stay competitive or it stops being competitive, at least in that "level 2" category from Greg's analysis.

Huge difference.

Not really sure how you compete with that. For family income of $160k

Cornell: $50k
Harvard: $20k
Yale: $20k

I love my alma mater, but, no contest.

Trotsky
Huge difference.

Not really sure how you compete with that. For family income of $160k

Cornell: $50k
Harvard: $20k
Yale: $20k

I love my alma mater, but, no contest.

The bottom line is that Cornell can't compete for students whose parents are in the $40K to (at least) $200K range. It can compete for the (relatively) very poor and the very rich. Boy, that's what Cornell needs: an even *more* bimodal distribution between the working class kids and the trust fund kids.

Kyle Rose
The bottom line is that Cornell can't compete for students whose parents are in the $40K to (at least) $200K range. It can compete for the (relatively) very poor and the very rich. Boy, that's what Cornell needs: an even *more* bimodal distribution between the working class kids and the trust fund kids.

Harvard has a 10% ceiling on EFC up to family income of $180k. Let's assume the "best case" (from Cornell's POV) that it's a hard shelf, and at $180,001 the gap disappears. This article says in 2007 about 50% of the Harvard undergrad population were below that mark (leaving 50% as Upper Class Twits of the Year).

According to this site, Harvard admitted about 2000 students last year, so we're talking about 1000 kids in that 40-160 cohort. Cornell admitted 6500 kids out of 35k applicants.

It's not the end of the world for Cornell (although with Yale aping Harvard we can pretty much double the impact). The main lesson is probably that $50k per year expenses for the Ancien Regime is too high in a world that churns out PhDs like toilet paper and in which a hundred or more competitors provide a comparable* product at a big discount.

(* except for the intangibles, of course )

Trotsky
The main lesson is probably that $50k per year expenses for the Ancien Regime is too high in a world that churns out PhDs like toilet paper and in which a hundred or more competitors provide a comparable* product at a big discount.

And this is exactly the point: the choice won't be between Harvard and Yale and Cornell. It will be between Harvard and Yale and (if one doesn't get in to either of those) the honors program at the state university. Cornell—along with scores of other private colleges whose primary value is the credential they bestow—will simply be priced out of that segment of the market.

Kyle Rose
And this is exactly the point: the choice won't be between Harvard and Yale and Cornell. It will be between Harvard and Yale and (if one doesn't get in to either of those) the honors program at the state university. Cornell—along with scores of other private colleges whose primary value is the credential they bestow—will simply be priced out of that segment of the market.

I've decided. You're actually more irritating when I agree with you.

Trotsky

Kyle Rose
And this is exactly the point: the choice won't be between Harvard and Yale and Cornell. It will be between Harvard and Yale and (if one doesn't get in to either of those) the honors program at the state university. Cornell—along with scores of other private colleges whose primary value is the credential they bestow—will simply be priced out of that segment of the market.

I've decided. You're actually more irritating when I agree with you.

That sounds like a challenge. Would you like to debate the relative merits of democracy and monarchy?

Kyle Rose
That sounds like a challenge. Would you like to debate the relative merits of democracy and monarchy?

No. Anyway, you're not fooling anyone. We all know you're a minarchist.

Trotsky

Kyle Rose
That sounds like a challenge. Would you like to debate the relative merits of democracy and monarchy?

No. Anyway, you're not fooling anyone. We all know you're a minarchist.

Actually, I'm an anarchist, but I can and have effectively argued that monarchy is superior to democracy, even (especially?) with regard to individual liberties.

Kyle Rose
Actually, I'm an anarchist, but I can and have effectively argued that monarchy is superior to democracy, even (especially?) with regard to individual liberties.

"The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination." -- Voltaire

You may not know it, but you're a minarchist. You don't really believe the only legitimate way to stop me from hiring mercenaries to take your stuff is to hire other mercenaries to protect it.

Nobody over 18 is that silly.

Kyle Rose

Trotsky

Kyle Rose
That sounds like a challenge. Would you like to debate the relative merits of democracy and monarchy?

No. Anyway, you're not fooling anyone. We all know you're a minarchist.

Actually, I'm an anarchist, but I can and have effectively argued that monarchy is superior to democracy, even (especially?) with regard to individual liberties.

How can you consider it effective when I'm still not convinced?

Monarchy can be superior, so long as you elect the right monarch. If not, well, you get Zimbabwe...

Trotsky
You may not know it, but you're a minarchist. You don't really believe the only legitimate way to stop me from hiring mercenaries to take your stuff is to hire other mercenaries to protect it.

Nobody over 18 is that silly.

Then you need to read more Murray Rothbard and Hans-Hermann Hoppe.

But more importantly, the first step to conducting a good argument is not to attempt to be the authority on what I believe.

Kyle Rose

Trotsky
You may not know it, but you're a minarchist. You don't really believe the only legitimate way to stop me from hiring mercenaries to take your stuff is to hire other mercenaries to protect it.

Nobody over 18 is that silly.

Then you need to read more Murray Rothbard and Hans-Hermann Hoppe.

But more importantly, the first step to conducting a good argument is not to attempt to be the authority on what I believe.

Why read Rothbard when you can skip retail and go right to von Mises? But Murray is interesting at first blush, I'll give you that. Larry Niven without a sense of humor. And his version of the Robinson Crusoe argument is... well, OK, it's sociopathic, but engaging. (Nobody is more virulent than a lapsed convert. I had my MR phase as well.)

Over/under 6 years (3 to recover, 3 more to admit it). See? I have more faith in you than me (took me 10).

Trotsky

Kyle Rose
Then you need to read more Murray Rothbard and Hans-Hermann Hoppe.

But more importantly, the first step to conducting a good argument is not to attempt to be the authority on what I believe.

Why read Rothbard when you can skip retail and go right to von Mises?

Because von Mises is not an anarcho-capitalist. I have read plenty of his works, anyway, as well as Hayek's, because they are insightful. But pulling him into an argument about the validity of Rothbard's views smacks of name-dropping and appeal to authority, both types of fallacies designed to elicit a specific response from onlookers.

Over/under 6 years (3 to recover, 3 more to admit it). See? I have more faith in you than me (took me 10).

I see any recovery on your part from condescension is already a lost cause. Let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

Maybe you acted irrationally and couldn't separate theory from practice, but I live in the world I have, not the world I want. That doesn't mean I shouldn't seek positive change, for which I advocate daily.

Kyle Rose

Trotsky

Kyle Rose
Then you need to read more Murray Rothbard and Hans-Hermann Hoppe.

But more importantly, the first step to conducting a good argument is not to attempt to be the authority on what I believe.

Why read Rothbard when you can skip retail and go right to von Mises?

Because von Mises is not an anarcho-capitalist. I have read plenty of his works, anyway, as well as Hayek's, because they are insightful. But pulling him into an argument about the validity of Rothbard's views smacks of name-dropping and appeal to authority, both types of fallacies designed to elicit a specific response from onlookers.

Over/under 6 years (3 to recover, 3 more to admit it). See? I have more faith in you than me (took me 10).

I see any recovery on your part from condescension is already a lost cause. Let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

Maybe you acted irrationally and couldn't separate theory from practice, but I live in the world I have, not the world I want. That doesn't mean I shouldn't seek positive change, for which I advocate daily.

Jesus, Kyle, I'm just messing with you.

PM me if you want to discuss in detail.

Trotsky
Jesus, Kyle, I'm just messing with you.

And I you. No offense intended, or taken.

Jerk / Typical...

Trotsky
Jerk / Typical...

NOOOooooo!!! Don't let it end!!

RichH

Trotsky
Jerk / Typical...

NOOOooooo!!! Don't let it end!!

It's only just begun. Our PMs are hotter than the Sigma Nu girls at Dunbars.

Kyle Rose

Trotsky
The main lesson is probably that $50k per year expenses for the Ancien Regime is too high in a world that churns out PhDs like toilet paper and in which a hundred or more competitors provide a comparable* product at a big discount.

And this is exactly the point: the choice won't be between Harvard and Yale and Cornell. It will be between Harvard and Yale and (if one doesn't get in to either of those) the honors program at the state university. Cornell—along with scores of other private colleges whose primary value is the credential they bestow—will simply be priced out of that segment of the market.

Getting back to the topic at hand, another problem for our fair Cornell is the number of "top" schools offering merit aid to outstanding students with the financial abillity to pay full tuition. WashU, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins, and Carnegie Mellon have all entered into this arena in recent years, which can really upset the admissions dynamic, and, in my opinion, has started to affect the quality of the student body.

Kyle is keen to point out that Cornell needs to address the issue of aid package parity in order to retain its position, but he doesn't offer any solutions. What are the choices? Cut back on quality and the breadth of faculty? Cut sports programs and other extracurricular activities? Solicit alums for more donations? Decrease the diversity of the undergraduate body?

I wonder if there are any types of creative financing Cornell could consider. For instance, what if Cornell cut your tuition by $10k a year if you promised 1% of your annual earnings as unrestricted giving for life?

mnagowski
I wonder if there are any types of creative financing Cornell could consider. For instance, what if Cornell cut your tuition by $10k a year if you promised 1% of your annual earnings as unrestricted giving for life?

One potential problem with that, believe it or not, is that it could lower people's sights as far as their charitable giving to Cornell once they've reached the point where they could be giving significantly more. Plus, how do you measure "earnings"? Just salary?

Not trying to pooh-pooh creative suggestions, just trying to be realistic. I do wonder, however, how many of the people despairing over the future of Cornell's athletics programs and student body in general have ever given to a scholarship fund at Cornell. As you've surmised, one of the few reasonable solutions to the problem of not having enough money to pull off what the Harvards and Yales are doing is to go get more money, and alumni giving is one of the few reasonable ways to do it.

Beeeej
I do wonder, however, how many of the people despairing over the future of Cornell's athletics programs and student body in general have ever given to a scholarship fund at Cornell.

I've been wondering the same thing.

Beeeej

mnagowski
I wonder if there are any types of creative financing Cornell could consider. For instance, what if Cornell cut your tuition by $10k a year if you promised 1% of your annual earnings as unrestricted giving for life?

One potential problem with that, believe it or not, is that it could lower people's sights as far as their charitable giving to Cornell once they've reached the point where they could be giving significantly more. Plus, how do you measure "earnings"? Just salary?

Income would be a better measure, presumably. But I think the point of mandating unrestricted giving to 1% would be to allow restricted giving over that threshold. So if you wanted to support the unicycling club or endow a professorship, it would have to be over that amount.

Not trying to pooh-pooh creative suggestions, just trying to be realistic. I do wonder, however, how many of the people despairing over the future of Cornell's athletics programs and student body in general have ever given to a scholarship fund at Cornell. As you've surmised, one of the few reasonable solutions to the problem of not having enough money to pull off what the Harvards and Yales are doing is to go get more money, and alumni giving is one of the few reasonable ways to do it.

It's a very fair question. I organized a scholarship dinner for the local Cornell Club this past fall, and of the fifty or so attendees, I was the only one to give. I am probably just a poor fundraiser, however.

Trotsky

RichH

Trotsky
Jerk / Typical...

NOOOooooo!!! Don't let it end!!

It's only just begun. Our PMs are hotter than the Sigma Nu girls at Dunbars.

I was gonna say "get a room" but it sounds like you already have.

Trotsky
It's only just begun. Our PMs are hotter than the Sigma Nu girls at Dunbars.

Sigma Nu is a fraternity...

ebilmes

Trotsky
It's only just begun. Our PMs are hotter than the Sigma Nu girls at Dunbars.

Sigma Nu is a fraternity...

You gots ta read between the lines, boy.

Beeeej
One potential problem with that, believe it or not, is that it could lower people's sights as far as their charitable giving to Cornell once they've reached the point where they could be giving significantly more.

That was my gut response. It also changes a charitable gesture that makes people feel good into a commitment that breeds resentment.

It would be interesting to see the distribution of gifts for different universities. Cornell, which AFAIK has a low overall percentage of donors / alumni (not sure if that's still the case if you only count the private colleges) might also be more skewed than the others, with a larger percentage coming from the top few donors. (One good thing about the Idle Rich -- they're pretty handy during development drives.)

The distribution curve might simply reflect the wealth / earnings distribution of graduates of different schools. It doesn't seem like Cornellians have a dearth of affection for their alma mater.

Trotsky
The distribution curve might simply reflect the wealth / earnings distribution of graduates of different schools. It doesn't seem like Cornellians have a dearth of affection for their alma mater.

Not at all. I chuckle when I think of a friend I worked with in Vermont (UWash undergrad / UMich grad) who was always amazed at how into Cornell we Cornellians were. He eventually left the company and moved to Sunnyvale, where he ended up living in the same apartment complex as KeithK. He only THOUGHT he was escaping us by moving to CA...

Robb
I chuckle when I think of a friend I worked with in Vermont (UWash undergrad / UMich grad) who was always amazed at how into Cornell we Cornellians were.

Which had to be why CU was chosen for Andy Bernard. You have to wonder if writers of "The Office" had too many close encounters with CU alumni.

RichH
Which had to be why CU was chosen for Andy Bernard. You have to wonder if writers of "The Office" had too many close encounters with CU alumni.

98% of the people writing for television are from 5 schools. Sometimes our number comes up.

RichH

Robb
I chuckle when I think of a friend I worked with in Vermont (UWash undergrad / UMich grad) who was always amazed at how into Cornell we Cornellians were.

Which had to be why CU was chosen for Andy Bernard. You have to wonder if writers of "The Office" had too many close encounters with CU alumni.

I thought that one of the writers was an alum? There's a great line (blink, or more analogously, earmuffs yourself for a second, and you'll miss it) in the episode where Michael starts a bunch of rumors after accidentally letting it out that Pam is pregnant. Of course, one of the rumors is that Andy is gay. He grills someone about where they heard that, and one of the sources he names is, "...one of my brothers from Chi Psi?" A great, subtle knock on the homoeroticism of frats, and in particular, on one filled with entitled douchebags. And yeah, of course I went to afterhours there...I mean, how ELSE was I going to infiltrate them to spread my feminist gospel?

Jerseygirl

RichH

Robb
I chuckle when I think of a friend I worked with in Vermont (UWash undergrad / UMich grad) who was always amazed at how into Cornell we Cornellians were.

Which had to be why CU was chosen for Andy Bernard. You have to wonder if writers of "The Office" had too many close encounters with CU alumni.

I thought that one of the writers was an alum? There's a great line (blink, or more analogously, earmuffs yourself for a second, and you'll miss it) in the episode where Michael starts a bunch of rumors after accidentally letting it out that Pam is pregnant. Of course, one of the rumors is that Andy is gay. He grills someone about where they heard that, and one of the sources he names is, "...one of my brothers from Chi Psi?" A great, subtle knock on the homoeroticism of frats, and in particular, on one filled with entitled douchebags. And yeah, of course I went to afterhours there...I mean, how ELSE was I going to infiltrate them to spread my feminist gospel?

Kevin Reilly ’84, the NBC executive responsible for renewing the show after its first rather mediocre year is a Cornell alum. So, to give thanks, the writers from Harvard and Dartmouth decided to write Cornell into the story.

[cornellsun.com]