Legacy situation

I graduated from CU College of Arts and Sciences about 25 years ago, and recently my oldest son was denied admission to Cornell. Has this happened to any other eLynah folks before? I'm surprised to be feeling this way, but I'm taking it personally and it's changed my feelings about Cornell. I hope this feeling is temporary.

My son is a good student -- good enough for Lafayette, where he will be attending -- yet he was dinged Early Decision in December. Cornell has always been an important part of our family including numerous vacations to Ithaca plus attending scores of hockey, basketball, and football games. In addition, my kids loved attending Cornell sports camps in the summer. I am grateful having attended Cornell, had a wonderful time when I was a student, and was a proud and active alum.

Does this creepy feeling go away? My oldest daughter plans on applying to Cornell in two years, so we'll see next time.

Unfortunately, I think that's a part of the "selectivization" trend that's going on in the top schools. Many of the kids who got in in the 50's and 60's would have been laughed at by the admissions boards of the 70's and 80's, and they in turn would be laughed at today. As the population grows but the number of spots in the top schools doesn't, those schools can increasingly fill their entire student bodies with the very extreme tip of the bell curve. More high school valedictorians apply to Harvard than Harvard has freshmen, so they could fill their whole class with nothing but valedictorians if they chose to (wouldn't that be a great day for Cornell hockey?!).

I look at the kids coming out of high schools today with their multiple years of college math, extracirricular research opportunities, publications, standardized test prep courses, etc, and wonder just what kind of crazy rat race this is, and what sacrifices my (hypothetical) kids will have to make someday if they want to attend a place like Cornell.

The flip side of this trend is that more and more extremely talented top students (and the same trend applies to professors) are ending up at so-called "lower tier" colleges, so the educational experiences at those colleges are improving as well.

Good luck to your son - hope he has a wonderful experience at Lafayette.

To add to what Robb said, Cornell has routinely putting out press releases about the record number of applications they have been receiving as have most of the Ivies. Whatever they are calling the current generation of high school kids - Gen Y, Boomer Echo, etc. - there are a heck of a lot more of them than there was in 1990 when I applied and I wonder if I would be accepted at Cornell now. My high school routinely graduated 400 a year into the mid-80s and then the numbers started dropping until bottoming out around 220 in about 1993. They are over 400 again and the town had to build a new middle school, build an addition to the high school, and reopen an elementary school that had been shuttered. Overall the town population has only slightly increased.

Just wondering chominky, did your son also apply to Arts?

> did your son also apply to Arts? <

Yep. After the fact, I spoke to a contact I have in the Admissions office, and she told me that Early Decision applicants are reviewed by faculty, not Admissions officers. My son wants to major in History, and my contact told me that it's one of the most competitive departments in the Arts school.

You might want to look at a piece that John Marcham '50 wrote in the Cornell Alumni News of October 1972 (page 7) about his reaction to the situation. [ecommons.library.cornell.edu] (It's 38+ MB, so the download is not instantaneous.) Note that Marcham was editor of the Cornell Alumni News. His father was long-time beloved professor English, Fred Marcham (and long-time mayor of the Village of Cayuga Heights). I'm not saying that your situation matches in detail any of the specifics that he describes, but he provides an example of a dedicated Cornell family whose child was not accepted by the University, who was hurt, but who recovered.

The same issue has an interesting interview with Professor Joel Silbey titled "How Americans Vote," anticipating that year's presidential election.

nyc94
To add to what Robb said, Cornell has routinely putting out press releases about the record number of applications they have been receiving as have most of the Ivies. Whatever they are calling the current generation of high school kids - Gen Y, Boomer Echo, etc. - there are a heck of a lot more of them than there was in 1990 when I applied and I wonder if I would be accepted at Cornell now. My high school routinely graduated 400 a year into the mid-80s and then the numbers started dropping until bottoming out around 220 in about 1993. They are over 400 again and the town had to build a new middle school, build an addition to the high school, and reopen an elementary school that had been shuttered. Overall the town population has only slightly increased.

Just wondering chominky, did your son also apply to Arts?

Don't overestimate Gen Y. They are not smarter than past generations; they certainly are not better educated. Back in my day, kids used to read books instead of surfing the Internet and playing video games! We also were not overly concerned with finding ways to maximize our SAT scores. We just took the SATs and lived with the result. I get the impression that many of the "wunderkinds" today play the recruiting game better and get "coached up" to maximize their scores. Had we grown up in the same environment, I'm sure we could have done the same.

BillCharlton
Don't overestimate Gen Y. They are not smarter than past generations; they certainly are not better educated.

I agree that it's very unlikely that "intelligence" (whatever that is) has changed in the last 30 or 40 years. What has changed are the opportunities for those who ARE intelligent to differentiate themselves from the pack. On the whole, I also agree that the average educational experience in the US has probably gotten worse. However, when talking about Ivy League admissions, we're not talking about kids who are anywhere remotely near average. We're talking about kids who are 2 standard deviations above - the top 2% or so. I think that their educational experience has "improved" in the sense that they are exposed to more material at younger ages (especially in math and science) and have opportunities to do much more advanced/independent work. Because these opportunities are now available, I think that the current system ends up (for better or worse) more effectively identifying the kids who are really the cream of the crop - who not only have the ability, but also the initiative and the drive to excel.

Yes, probably as many as 50% of today's youth are no-good, lazy, video game playing, long hair growing, skateboarding, drinking and drugging burdens to society, but that's totally irrelevant when discussing Ivy admissions.

BillCharlton
Had we grown up in the same environment, I'm sure we could have done the same.

Yep - you're absolutely right. The only question is: would we have done the same as today's top achievers, or as today's video game players?

> You might want to look at a piece that John Marcham '50 wrote in the Cornell Alumni News of October 1972 (page 7) about his reaction to the situation. <

Thanks for the article, David. At first I was expecting the author to imply that such feelings of anger and confusion are at first natural, but really senseless. I felt empathy when he conveyed his story about the scholarship though.

I can tell you one thing -- the feeling is weird. Knowing how much harder it is to get in versus 25 or 40 years ago kind of makes it easier to swallow. I read an interesting article titled "Is the Ivy League 'Worth It?'" Have you ever heard the adage about fitting 10 lbs. into a 5 lbs. bag? Well, the Ivy League is still a 5 lbs. bag that the rest of the country and world want to get into. Here's the link to the article. I only post it because of the content in the first part of the article. Don't need to read the rest because we all know that it's worth it.

Robb
Yes, probably as many as 50% of today's youth are no-good, lazy, video game playing, long hair growing, skateboarding, drinking and drugging burdens to society, but that's totally irrelevant when discussing Ivy admissions.

Your sentence (with edits) accurately describes many members of my high school class and freshman dorm. Fortunately, most of them turned out OK. So, come to think of it, maybe things haven't changed that much after all.

We also have to recognize that Cornell, and the Ivies in general, are getting students from a much wider pool than before. For those of us old enough, we can still remember when women had a more difficult time getting in, and their numbers were much less than now. Although they have not gotten the cultural diversity (yes maybe that's being politically correct, and not intended to spark a war) that they may want, it's certainly much more so than when I was there. They have also taken their message all across the US, say nothing of the world, and therefore getting students from a much larger pool; that leads to much less space for those like us older folks.

There are some interesting points in the "Is the Ivy League 'Worth It?'" article. [encarta.msn.com] There is certainly merit to the idea of the nationalization of the candidate base increasing demand at the elite institutions, though my family experience doesn't match 100%. I had a great aunt from Indiana who attended Cornell in the early 1920's and an aunt from Minnesota who attended Swarthmore in the 1930's.

Did he select an alternate college by any chance? While he may have gotten rejected by Arts, he may have been accepted by AAP or ILR (both of which have very strong history programs and typically a slightly weaker applicant pool). This is the first year the University has had the primary/alternate admissions scheme, and I am surprised by the number of applicants who haven't taken advantage of it.

I actually just interviewed a kid tonight as part of CAAAN. He applied to Arts as a math major, and while he said his SAT and GPA were strong, I got the sense that he will not be "well-rounded" enough for Arts. He would probably have had a decent shot for Engineering or Ag though (both of which have pretty decent quantitative programs, ORIE and Biometry and Statistics) that would have been a good fit for him.

Whether an alternate makes sense depends on individual interests. If a kid is really interested in theoretical math then majoring in ORIE (undergrad anyway)may not be as good of a fit as a straight math major. Likewise, ILR may have strong history programs (they do? learn something every day) but the focus may not be right if what you really like is (random example) medieval history. For others the "replacement" majors may be perfectly suitable.

KeithK
ILR may have strong history programs (they do? learn something every day)

Yes, but it is a bit ... focused.

You also have to consider transfers. You can transfer to CU, from another U, and if you're in another school at CU, and doing well, transferring within CU is possible. Yes, it usually takes you longer to graduate, and therefore costs more, but it can be done.

We were aware of the alternate-school option, but we were advised that it was best only for superior applicants. Using 20/20 hindsight, he should have chosen the option, especially consdering that he had some interest in MAP at HumEc. Although not an official recruit, my son also had support from the Athletic Dept. and one of Cornell's head coaches, and would have played for CU if admitted. Considering also my participation in CAAAN (which enabled me to get to know someone in Admissions), my involvement in another alumni athletic organization, and my modest yet consistent gift-giving, I thought that I did as much as I could to help my kid. The rest was up to my son and Cornell. It didn't work out. Sometimes my son says that he's interested in trying to transfer to Cornell, and at others, he's pretty pleased with Lafayette, and he has every reason to be.

Although I wish he was admitted, my reason for posting is not to complain or argue the merits of his candidacy, but rather to explain how strange it is not to be crazy about Cornell. I want to know how others deal with it, and if the feeling goes away. I reckon it does, and I hope it goes sooner than later. Besides family, Cornell was probably the greatest thing that ever happened to me. It's hard to reconcile.

If Cornell turns down awesomely well qualified kids, they're going to do great things at places such as Lafayette (a gem of a small campus and a gorgeous football field, we discovered on a recent visit) or Lehigh (as if all of Cornell was built onto the side of Libe Slope). Recall also some studies from the turn of the decade saying college outcomes are more heavily influenced by SAT scores and family income than anything else. In other words, Cornell grads emerge rich and smart because they went in rich and smart.

Our older son (junior) is probably not going to look at Cornell while our ninth grader already has a short list of Cornell, Stanford, Cal, and Berkeley, which he believes is four separate institutions. Even if he's close to straight-A, he's going to need to look at Lafayettes and Vanderbilts and Hamiltons, too, and who knows if that's a sure thing. It's disheartening to have a ninth grader think about not what he wants to do with his outside time during his next four years, but what he may have to do look good for admissions committees. Is he to be yet another one of the zillion kids who does the Habitat for Humanity thing in Honduras? Should he stick out Scouts for his Eagle badge (something he actually wants to do)? And then, since he loves lacrosse, does he start (well, not this year) thinking about the schools that would want his caliber of long pole defense, on account of he's not the second coming of Mich Belisle or Ryan McClay.

In many ways it's even tougher being a kid these days. There is the compensating advantage of the awesome outfits the girls wear to class.

billhoward
There is the compensating advantage of the awesome outfits the girls wear to class.

You must not have daughters...

KeithK

billhoward
There is the compensating advantage of the awesome outfits the girls wear to class.

You must not have daughters...

Soon, it will be summer in DC. G-Town is good for at least one thing. Wow, now I'm that old alumni.

chominky
Although I wish he was admitted, my reason for posting is not to complain or argue the merits of his candidacy, but rather to explain how strange it is not to be crazy about Cornell. I want to know how others deal with it, and if the feeling goes away. I reckon it does, and I hope it goes sooner than later. Besides family, Cornell was probably the greatest thing that ever happened to me. It's hard to reconcile.

I didn't take a look at this thread until now, but I hope you're still following it. I was in a similar but admittedly different situation this past year--my senior year at Cornell. I wanted to go to Cornell Law School in the worst way. I felt I was a pretty strong but clearly not a shoe-in applicant. I finished in the top 5% of my class at the "school" at Cornell I was in (trying not to out myself), had great recommendations, etc. but my LSAT score was a tad lower than the median. Still I think I was a bit better than a borderline candidate. To make a long story short, I was waitlisted, led to believe I had a very good chance of getting, then I was asked to jump through a number of hoops over the summer to get in off the waitlist before I was ultimately rejected in the end of August. It was rough; like you, Cornell the greatest experience of my short life and I wanted more than anything to stay there. For the first few months I had mixed feelings about the place. But, I've been back to campus (mostly for hockey games ) and I'm starting to feel better about the place. I just try to remember all the great times I had, people I met and that I shouldn't let a handful of admissions officers get in the way with how I feel about my alma mater or prevent me from staying in touch now that my days as a student are over.


Oh and BTW, if all else fails, listen to "My Old Cornell" nonstop.

Today's NY Times has a story about the number of high school seniors peaking soon. Not much consolation for this year's seniors.

Math Suggests College Frenzy Will Soon Ease

[www.nytimes.com]

"Projections show that by next year or the year after, the annual number of high school graduates in the United States will peak at about 2.9 million after a 15-year climb. The number is then expected to decline until about 2015. Most universities expect this to translate into fewer applications and less selectivity, with most students probably finding it easier to get into college."

Thanks, Redhair. I took my 11-year-old son to the Cornell-Princeton basketball game on Saturday, which was good therapy. BTW, I asked my Lafayette-bound son if he wanted to join us. He didn't.

My oldest daughter is a HS sophomore, and her #1 so far is Cornell too. I told her not to rely on just her grades, but to work harder on her track and field skills. What's wrong with this picture? Sadly, it's true.

chominky
I told her not to rely on just her grades, but to work harder on her track and field skills. What's wrong with this picture?

I guess it's all how you look at it, whether it's good or bad that colleges are nudging people in that non-academic direction.

Personally, I was very un-athletic growing up, and I got into colleges on the merit of grades, community service and other "academic" extracurriculars. Looking back, if I had one regret -- other than not having a girlfriend -- it'd be that I didn't get seriously into sports earlier. On a statistically level, it's no secret that Americans are getting fatter (not saying you or your family, of course; just the national average).

If colleges are morphing into institutions that reward more than just academic merit, it's probably one of the few things I don't think is wrong with the system of higher education we have in this country/world.

ftyuv

chominky
I told her not to rely on just her grades, but to work harder on her track and field skills. What's wrong with this picture?

I guess it's all how you look at it, whether it's good or bad that colleges are nudging people in that non-academic direction.

Personally, I was very un-athletic growing up, and I got into colleges on the merit of grades, community service and other "academic" extracurriculars. Looking back, if I had one regret -- other than not having a girlfriend -- it'd be that I didn't get seriously into sports earlier. On a statistically level, it's no secret that Americans are getting fatter (not saying you or your family, of course; just the national average).

If colleges are morphing into institutions that reward more than just academic merit, it's probably one of the few things I don't think is wrong with the system of higher education we have in this country/world.

Cornell is supposed to be an institute of higher learning. I fully support having athletic and extracurricular activities on a college campus. But the fact is playing sports is not a qualification for higher learning. Being good at running 400m or throwing a football has little relevance when it comes to writing a history paper or doing a linear algebra problem set or running a chemistry experiment.

I agree that dedication and success in athletics can lend some insight into the character of an individual and show such attributes as time management skills that might correlate well with academic success. But that's on the margin.

If you feel otherwise then maybe we ought to be offering scholarships to boost the hockey team? If having a great slapshot is relevant to success in higher education then we might as well spend money on it.

fWIW - I got into Cornell purely on the basis of academics.

KeithK
If you feel otherwise then maybe we ought to be offering scholarships to boost the hockey team? If having a great slapshot is relevant to success in higher education then we might as well spend money on it.

Not sure how this is a sensible argument. I don't think Cornell gives out scholarships for any other "merit" reason - why athletics? The admissions staff may simply feel that athletes, like musicians and active volunteers, are more well-rounded individuals who will contribute more to the community. Cornell doesn't offer dance scholarships any more than they do hockey scholarships. Money doesn't belong in this particular debate.

KeithK

ftyuv

chominky
I told her not to rely on just her grades, but to work harder on her track and field skills. What's wrong with this picture?

I guess it's all how you look at it, whether it's good or bad that colleges are nudging people in that non-academic direction.

Personally, I was very un-athletic growing up, and I got into colleges on the merit of grades, community service and other "academic" extracurriculars. Looking back, if I had one regret -- other than not having a girlfriend -- it'd be that I didn't get seriously into sports earlier. On a statistically level, it's no secret that Americans are getting fatter (not saying you or your family, of course; just the national average).

If colleges are morphing into institutions that reward more than just academic merit, it's probably one of the few things I don't think is wrong with the system of higher education we have in this country/world.

Cornell is supposed to be an institute of higher learning. I fully support having athletic and extracurricular activities on a college campus. But the fact is playing sports is not a qualification for higher learning. Being good at running 400m or throwing a football has little relevance when it comes to writing a history paper or doing a linear algebra problem set or running a chemistry experiment.

I agree that dedication and success in athletics can lend some insight into the character of an individual and show such attributes as time management skills that might correlate well with academic success. But that's on the margin.

If you feel otherwise then maybe we ought to be offering scholarships to boost the hockey team? If having a great slapshot is relevant to success in higher education then we might as well spend money on it.

fWIW - I got into Cornell purely on the basis of academics.

Yes, and writing a history paper or doing a linear algebra problem set has little to do with what a lot of people who do those things in college end up doing in life.

The point of my first post was that the notion of "[University] is supposed to be an institute of higher learning" is outdated. Universities have evolved past that simple definition. Some of what they've changed into is good, some of it sucks. Of all the changes, their shift towards promoting athleticism is one I actually support.

And if you're preparing for the "writing a history paper may not be a directly transferable skill, but it still teaches you things you use later in life," then I think sports definitely have just as much benefit.

Beeeej

KeithK
If you feel otherwise then maybe we ought to be offering scholarships to boost the hockey team? If having a great slapshot is relevant to success in higher education then we might as well spend money on it.

Not sure how this is a sensible argument. I don't think Cornell gives out scholarships for any other "merit" reason - why athletics? The admissions staff may simply feel that athletes, like musicians and active volunteers, are more well-rounded individuals who will contribute more to the community. Cornell doesn't offer dance scholarships any more than they do hockey scholarships. Money doesn't belong in this particular debate.

OK, it's a little weak. But it sounded good at the time.

ftyuv
The point of my first post was that the notion of "[University] is supposed to be an institute of higher learning" is outdated.

Well, we'll have to disagree on that. IMO learning is still the primary purpose. Everything else is secondary.

KeithK

ftyuv
The point of my first post was that the notion of "[University] is supposed to be an institute of higher learning" is outdated.

Well, we'll have to disagree on that. IMO learning is still the primary purpose. Everything else is secondary.

Agree to disagree. When in Rome. A whale's V...


I know most people on this board love Cornell, so I'll spare everyone the embittered rant. PM me for details if you want to know what I think is the primary purpose of institutions of higher learning.

KeithK

billhoward
There is the compensating advantage of the awesome outfits the girls wear to class.

You must not have daughters...

Our neighbors' daughters think the outfits are awesome, too. Leaving only their parents a mite unhappy.

billhoward

KeithK

billhoward
There is the compensating advantage of the awesome outfits the girls wear to class.

You must not have daughters...

Our neighbors' daughters think the outfits are awesome, too. Leaving only their parents a mite unhappy.

My only problem with the outfits is that girls weren't wearing them when I was in school. (What did you say Robb? Why did I have to be in college during grunge?) But then, I don't have daughters either.

KeithK

billhoward

KeithK

billhoward
There is the compensating advantage of the awesome outfits the girls wear to class.

You must not have daughters...

Our neighbors' daughters think the outfits are awesome, too. Leaving only their parents a mite unhappy.

My only problem with the outfits is that girls weren't wearing them when I was in school. (What did you say Robb? Why did I have to be in college during grunge?) But then, I don't have daughters either.

Hey, flannel shirts and ripped baggy jeans are HOT - I don't care what anyone says.

BillCharlton

nyc94
To add to what Robb said, Cornell has routinely putting out press releases about the record number of applications they have been receiving as have most of the Ivies. Whatever they are calling the current generation of high school kids - Gen Y, Boomer Echo, etc. - there are a heck of a lot more of them than there was in 1990 when I applied and I wonder if I would be accepted at Cornell now. My high school routinely graduated 400 a year into the mid-80s and then the numbers started dropping until bottoming out around 220 in about 1993. They are over 400 again and the town had to build a new middle school, build an addition to the high school, and reopen an elementary school that had been shuttered. Overall the town population has only slightly increased.

Just wondering chominky, did your son also apply to Arts?

Don't overestimate Gen Y. They are not smarter than past generations; they certainly are not better educated. Back in my day, kids used to read books instead of surfing the Internet and playing video games! We also were not overly concerned with finding ways to maximize our SAT scores. We just took the SATs and lived with the result. I get the impression that many of the "wunderkinder" today play the recruiting game better and get "coached up" to maximize their scores. Had we grown up in the same environment, I'm sure we could have done the same.

FYP for German speakers.

And who is partly responsible for putting into place and perpetuating the system that encourages such behavior among young people today? PWNED.

Annoying Name Here

BillCharlton

nyc94
To add to what Robb said, Cornell has routinely putting out press releases about the record number of applications they have been receiving as have most of the Ivies. Whatever they are calling the current generation of high school kids - Gen Y, Boomer Echo, etc. - there are a heck of a lot more of them than there was in 1990 when I applied and I wonder if I would be accepted at Cornell now. My high school routinely graduated 400 a year into the mid-80s and then the numbers started dropping until bottoming out around 220 in about 1993. They are over 400 again and the town had to build a new middle school, build an addition to the high school, and reopen an elementary school that had been shuttered. Overall the town population has only slightly increased.

Just wondering chominky, did your son also apply to Arts?

Don't overestimate Gen Y. They are not smarter than past generations; they certainly are not better educated. Back in my day, kids used to read books instead of surfing the Internet and playing video games! We also were not overly concerned with finding ways to maximize our SAT scores. We just took the SATs and lived with the result. I get the impression that many of die Wunderkinder today play the recruiting game better and get "coached up" to maximize their scores. Had we grown up in the same environment, I'm sure we could have done the same.

FYP for German speakers.

And who is partly responsible for putting into place and perpetuating the system that encourages such behavior among young people today? PWNED.

FYP. Why stop there?

madAgaskar07

Annoying Name Here

BillCharlton

nyc94
To add to what Robb said, Cornell has routinely putting out press releases about the record number of applications they have been receiving as have most of the Ivies. Whatever they are calling the current generation of high school kids - Gen Y, Boomer Echo, etc. - there are a heck of a lot more of them than there was in 1990 when I applied and I wonder if I would be accepted at Cornell now. My high school routinely graduated 400 a year into the mid-80s and then the numbers started dropping until bottoming out around 220 in about 1993. They are over 400 again and the town had to build a new middle school, build an addition to the high school, and reopen an elementary school that had been shuttered. Overall the town population has only slightly increased.

Just wondering chominky, did your son also apply to Arts?

Don't overestimate Gen Y. They are not smarter than past generations; they certainly are not better educated. Back in my day, kids used to read books instead of surfing the Internet and playing video games! We also were not overly concerned with finding ways to maximize our SAT scores. We just took the SATs and lived with the result. I get the impression that many of den Wunderkindern today play the recruiting game better and get "coached up" to maximize their scores. Had we grown up in the same environment, I'm sure we could have done the same.

FYP for German speakers.

And who is partly responsible for putting into place and perpetuating the system that encourages such behavior among young people today? PWNED.

FYP. Why stop there?

What you said.