OT: To Mac or not to Mac

Bonni needs a new laptop. She is thinking about getting a Mac. I know there are several pro- and several anti-Mac folks on the forum, so I ask for your advice but please keep it relatively civil and simple and keep in mind that the target user is not a developer or a power user. Primarily she'll use it to write papers and surf the net. She'll probably also let her daughter use it to play those weird games that 11 year old girls play online.

This is coming from a PC user, but I'll tell you what I know. This is based on personal research (I was thinking about buying a laptop myself, but lack of funds stopped me) and friends' experiences. The G4 powerbook (sleek titanium. . . mmmm. . .) with OS X works like a dream, is fairly light (5 or 6 pounds) has a big screen and full-size keyboard, a long lasting battery, and lots of great network features (built in wireless, crossover ethernet, etc.). Because it has a unix kernel it's stable and lets you manage your programs with relative ease, and I've heard nothing but rave reviews about it from my friends. It's also a remarkably compatible OS (unlike many of the older versions), and can usually manage PC software.

This laptop does have a downside. It costs around $2,500 (last time I looked), and can run you over $3,000.

Will she plan on networking it at all? Does she need the portability? What, exactly does she want out of it? Laptops aren't simply a matter of usage needs (i.e. web surfing), they're a matter of portability etc. If she types a lot, she'll probably prefer a full-size keyboard. If you want a PC box with one of those it'll either run 8 pounds, or you'll have to buy a USB keyboard. If she wants portability, the lightweight PCs are nearly as expensive as a Mac and are very cramped - tiny monitor, tiny keyboard, external drives, and not terribly useful unless accompanied by a desktop (or a desktop-replacement type of laptop).

If she just wants a box to sit on a desk and function, I'd go with a big, heavy, reasonably fast (not too fast) PC. For her uses, it shouldn't crash very often (if at all - unless you get XP home), and the biggest advantages of the Mac are undercut by the extreme pricetag. You can get a not-so-portable PC laptop that's almost as fast as the powerbook and can do what she needs for $1000. If she wants it to be portable, and is willing to spend the money, I'd go with the Mac. Especially if she's looking for a self-sufficient computer that isn't too heavy and is still comfortable to use in terms of keyboard and screen size.

I don't know what kind of games her daughter likes to play, but the PC is better in terms of high-end computer gaming. Many games won't run very well, if at all, on MacOS.

Hope this helps.

Oh boy, I hope this doesn't open a can of worms, knowing people on this forum, but also knowing this is a hockey form and not a technical one, I don't think it will. FYI, I've been a Mac user since the early 90s and an Apple computer user since the mid-80s - that's just a disclaimer so you can know where I come from.

[Q]This laptop does have a downside. It costs around $2,500 (last time I looked), and can run you over $3,000.[/Q]

Well, as far as Macs go, the PowerBooks top out at around $3200 I think, and start at like $2500 or so. The iBooks are the other hand are for people who want a laptop on a budget and start at $1200. Not that much more than a decent brand-name desktop. My sister just got a iBook for about $1500 or $1600 for school, and it's plenty of machine even if it doesn't match the PB's. Based on your description, you can get a machine to match their needs at a definitely reasonable price.

As for the Mac versus PC part, I really feel the new Mac OS X brings Macs a good step beyond PCs. Even my roommate's Win2K, which is supposed to be a very stable OS, needs to be restarted every couple days, while I currently have my machine up for nearly 20 days and it's running fine. In general that may not be a big deal, but if it crashes on a paper it will be (in a couple years from now when she gets to writing papers).

I also have a hunch that kids may be more into fiddling with things than adults (not necessarily for power user reasons, but just curiousity) and here Macs have it heads and tails above PCs. i work at the CIT HelpDesk and I can't count how many times I've heard a PC consultant say that a problem was caused by a user trying to move an application folder or doing something like upgrading the OS without uninstalling a whole bunch of system components (like Norton AntiVirus) - things that on a Mac would be no problem whatsoever. This is beneficial for more than just kids. It means you can move stuff and customize things as you please without worrying about breaking thing, and future OS upgrades are much less of a hassle.

Mac OS X is inherently a multi-user system, so it won't be a big deal to set up another, more limited user for the 11 year old. As far as compatibility, Macs are more compatible with PCs than ever. The new Mac OS X 10.2 can browse PC networks. It's never been a problem to load PC disks and AppleWorks, which would come with any iBook, can read Microsoft Word files, etc just fine.

As far as "those weird games that 11 year old girls play online," those will almost certainly be shockwave or Java, which are completely cross platform. I will admit that the big games don't always com out for Mac, or might be a bit later, but a good chuck of the main games do make it to Mac - Quake, Unreal, the Sims, Diablo, Warcraft, Return to Wolfenstein all have Mac releases. Of course, I get the hunch they won't be using it for that anyway.

Last thing I'll say is that many similar-priced PCs may not truly be similarly equiped. They may not include built-in ethernet by default, and probably won't have a CD burner at the base price, which many iBooks and all PowerBooks do. Watch or these kinds of things when comparing prices and Macs may seem like an even better bargain. That's my two cents.

-Fred

That's a good point about the ibooks. Personally, for my usage needs, I was *only* looking at the powerbook, so that's why I focused on it.

What do the iBooks weigh? Average battery life? Full-sized keyboard? Greg's friend might be interested in that stuff, although the apple website probably tells you.

No need for a discussion on the relative merits of Win2k vs. OS X. Most users won't notice much of a difference, although moving program directories is a nice problem-avoiding feature of OS X that Win2k doesn't have (although it causes other problems for companies like Microsoft - ) )

[Q]What do the iBooks weigh? Average battery life? Full-sized keyboard? Greg's friend might be interested in that stuff, although the apple website probably tells you.[/Q]
I think it's 4.8 or 4.9 pounds. The ones with 14.1" LCDs are probably more like 6 (like the PowerBooks). Apple advertises the battery life at 5 to 6 hours, which probably means 3.5 to 4.5 under typical use. I think the keyboards are full-sized. If not, they're damn close. And yes, it's all on Apple's website - [www.apple.com] - the "Tech Spec" link on the bar near the top is usually the one that brings you to the plain ol' specs w/o the wordy promotions.

[Q] (although it causes other problems for companies like Microsoft )[/Q]
This is one of the few good things I'll say about MS, so don't expect too much more... but their Mac applications are the easiest to install that I've seen and I don't think mind being moved around (though I haven't tried). When I installed Office of my sister's new iBook, I put the CD in the drive and dragged the "Microsoft Office" folder to her Applications folder... done. Even MS can do things better on the Mac then they can on Windows .

I'm surprised MHA or Age hasn't chimed in on this conversation yet - maybe I'm actually doing a good job .

-Fred

You two are doing a good job

I could toss in my 2 to 47 cents here, but it might come off as a maniacal rant. I will only say that I have a G4/400 PowerBook that I ordered the day they were announced and I still love it. The new ones are even better. Despite that, I still occasionally crave the portability of a notebook-sized 12" iBook. But when you need to do serious work, that PowerBook screen is sure nice. I have a WinXP tower at home I use almost exclusively for games, but every time I try to do something productive on it, I learn to appreciate MacOS X that much more. I'm done now.

> AirPort Card

Whazzat?

I'm no guru on the names of Mac hardware, but I believe the AirPort card is a wireless card. If I'm right, then it lets you access a LAN or the internet (in appropriate locations) via a wireless connection. Wasn't the AirPort what Apple was calling wireless connections?

The Powerbooks have it built in. Standard. If you want built in wireless in a PC laptop you have to make sure it's listed.

Never thought I'd be such a Mac proponent. Oh well.

[Q]I'm no guru on the names of Mac hardware, but I believe the AirPort card is a wireless card. If I'm right, then it lets you access a LAN or the internet (in appropriate locations) via a wireless connection. Wasn't the AirPort what Apple was calling wireless connections?[/Q]
Yup, it's Apple's 802.11b card (to get technical) - also known as wireless ethernet or WiFi - first brought to the market by Apple, spec created by Lucent.

[Q]he Powerbooks have it built in. Standard. If you want built in wireless in a PC laptop you have to make sure it's list.[/Q]
That isn't entirely true. Not all PB's come with an AirPort card built-in, and some iBooks might (not sure). Here's one advantage though... Mac laptops come with the *antenna* built in around the LCDs. Therefore the AirPort card that you'd have to buy only needs to include the controlling logic, etc,making it cheaper ($99) than most full 802.11b cards (more like $149 - you can find no name ones for $99 though).

And, of course, AirPort support is built in to the Mac OS, so using an AirPort connection is no different than using, say, ethernet - you just need to change the setting (maybe not even ), while on PCs you have to install new drivers, make sure they're compatible, and set up things that Windows doesn't really know about by default. I've seen it done - much messier.

Huh. I guess I was only looking at the ones that had it built in. Live and learn. I'll have to keep my eyes open for that if I eventually decide to go out and buy one of these things.

Not to nitpick, but it seems that most people are greatly overestimating the cost of pc components.

802.11b cards do not cost anywhere near $99 for a generic. If you check pricewatch you can see they have 2 listed below $40 and 7 pages of cards listed below $100 (with many brand names). The reason they are so cheap is the industry as a whole is moving away from 802.11b to 802.11a

I also doubt that someone who just wants to use a laptop for surfing and writing papers is going to bother setting up a wireless network.

Also, as for PC laptops you generally can get an excellent one for about 2 grand even with a cd burner (usually a DVD/CDRW drive).

Apple has made great strides since they moved to OS X and got rid of that crap they called an OS but hardware is not one of them.

My advice is figure out how much the laptop is going to be moved around. If the laptop is going to be used mainly in one location or even mostly in a house, get one of those heavier ones. They are much cheaper and more powerful as a general rule. If its constantly being moved, then the extra weight will prolly become a hassle. And as long as it has either Mac OS X or Windows XP (which it should) i dont think stability or compatibility is a real issue.

Rob said:
[Q]I also doubt that someone who just wants to use a laptop for surfing and writing papers is going to bother setting up a wireless network.[/Q]

ahem

That's more or less exactly why I'm setting up a wireless network - papers and surfing.

But it's not because I have a huge apartment (believe me, I don't) - it's because I want to be able to use my laptop anywhere in my apartment and anywhere in my parents' house and anywhere in MHA's apartment. In my apartment the issue is mostly just that my roommate would vastly prefer that I at least have the option of working in my room, even if I usually choose to work at the living room table anyway.

As for MHA's opinions, you should e-mail him off-eLF. He rarely reads this forum unless someone draws his attention to something of interest to him specifically.

Beeeej

Remedial wireless question. Does the technology work like a cellphone, where you can basically be anywhere and you connect (for a user fee per minute) across the cellular carrier network, or more like my portable home phone, where you must be within range of the cradle transceiver and you connect through the local landline network? Or is it something else?

Pretty much exactly the way you described a portable home phone. Of course, if you're on a college campus, there may be a network across much (or even all) of the campus. There are even some efforts to string coverage over metropolitian areas, so it may end up becoming more cell phone like (in some areas), but the fundamental technology is a limited range (currently ~150 feet) tied to a 'land line' (cable/DSL/other ethernet or sometimes modem).

Thanks. I wonder whether it would be efficient for the EC to network their cities, since they are more packed together. Isn't every square centimeter of Germany on fiber now?

Oh, one other consideration for the Mac v. PC laptop decision: we will be globe-trotting, probably to some technologically, er, interesting places (like West Africa). Is there a compelling reason to favor one over the other given international standards and resources (or their lack)?

Don't think so...

Power adapters are power adapters and can be gotten for any electronic device - to conform to local sockets and voltages. Basic network connections (modem, ethernet) are worldwide standards, I believe.

One thing I've noticed from my group of friends is Macs tends to have longer battery life - which might be important for travel. All the Macs I know will last 4-hours-ish, while my friend's PC tend to only last a couple. This could just be random (my friends buy cheap batteries? ), but since the Pentium 4 runs very hot, it may also be a pattern.

I'm willing to be corrected in the post - it runs of of my area of knowledge, but these are my impressions.

-Fred

The nice thing about power conversion for laptops is that the AC/DC converter already has a transformer built into it which can handle a pretty good range of voltages and frequencies, so you usually just need an adapter plug. Since I started shaving with a blade when I moved to Switzerland, I was able to leave all of my electrical appliances behind and not worry about transformers.

Incidentally, if Sydney, Pisa and Florence are any indication, Euro/Commonwealth cities are lousy with (relatively cheap) cyber-cafes. I even found one that was offering a plug-your-laptop-into-our-ethernet service, which would have been useful if I hadn't been on a day trip with my laptop back in my hotel room.

Greg,

A good place to check for deals for Macintosh related products is www.dealmac.com. There's also a pc component at www.dealpc.com.

Also, if you can manage to get educational pricing, you could save a bundle. I know Cornell always seems to have good educational pricing on Macs. As for me, I just recently bought the 800Mhz PowerBook with the 3 year AppleCare warranty for $2799.

The Apple Store also has a education section, and purchases for K-12 as well as higher education qualify for the discount.

It's funny about batteries. Apple was the last company to stick with NiCd batteries (more stable power but far, far less of it). So Mac laptops always had hideous battery life. I remember playing with my friend's PowerBook 180C for all of 20-25 minutes before the battery would bite it. I got a far more impressive 45 minutes from my 180. Well, you get the idea. But that was remedied with the first G3 PowerBooks. G4s draw very little power, so you get very good longevity. When my car DC/AC converter died in British Columbia just as we started driving back to NY this summer, I was very grateful for it.

As for actually purchasing it, educational discounts aren't what they used to be. At least not here. Personal purchases from the education store will get you about 5% savings. Departmental purchases will get you 10%, but Apple will charge tax and shipping. You're probably better of getting it from one of the big online retailers. Apple doesn't let them lower the retail price, so they just throw a bunch of extras in for free (printers, memory, monitors, etc.). Do the MacMall, MacZone, MacWarehouse, et al. crawl and find something that looks good.