2023 ECAC Post Season

andyw2100
When was the last time the ECAC had four teams in the tourney?

Four years ago; Cornell and Quinnipiac lost in the second round, Harvard and Clarkson in the first.

kingpin248

andyw2100
When was the last time the ECAC had four teams in the tourney?

Four years ago; Cornell and Quinnipiac lost in the second round, Harvard and Clarkson in the first.

Thanks!

arugula
How does a playoff overtime impact pwr? Half a win?

I thought 5x5 OT results counted the same as regulation. Do they not?

BearLover
No one made any attempt to check whether weighting by KRACH yields accurate predictions.

Yes, we have: [arxiv.org]

jtwcornell91

BearLover
No one made any attempt to check whether weighting by KRACH yields accurate predictions.

Yes, we have: [arxiv.org]

Figure 8 in particular is related to a previous eLynah discussion about whether probabilities too close to 1 are inaccurate.

Bu winning helps in a couple ways.

It gets us in and it stops Merrimack from jumping over us which would keep us from playing a #1 seed someplace potentially,

N Mich helps us there too. All the Favs and NMich and we have 4 teams behind us n the PW before they start moving teams around.

But if that all happens there will be a bunch of moving any way

Ugh--so this weekend is the double torture of losing to Harvard--and then having to root for them in the next game.

jtwcornell91

BearLover
No one made any attempt to check whether weighting by KRACH yields accurate predictions.

Yes, we have: [arxiv.org]

Wow, this is amazing. I had no idea! You are one of the authors? I’m going to try my best to read this as a non-math major. (Though feel free to offer the cliff notes if you’d like.)

BU’s top center Skoog is suspended tonight due to a boarding penalty last night

djk26
Ugh--so this weekend is the double torture of losing to Harvard--and then having to root for them in the next game.

Root for them to tie us in number of ECAC titles? Sorry-can't do it.

I'll be there rooting for Colgate and hoping that BU or Saint Cloud get it done.

andyw2100

djk26
Ugh--so this weekend is the double torture of losing to Harvard--and then having to root for them in the next game.

Root for them to tie us in number of ECAC titles? Sorry-can't do it.

I'll be there rooting for Colgate and hoping that BU or Saint Cloud get it done.

BU starts a half hour earlier. Hopefully they can put up a half dozen in the first and make rooting a bit more comfortable.

So I get criticized for rooting against our conference rivals in the NCAA tournament, yet there are people on here actively rooting for outcomes that would cost us a bid in the NCAA tournament. Damn…

BearLover
So I get criticized for rooting against our conference rivals in the NCAA tournament, yet there are people on here actively rooting for outcomes that would cost us a bid in the NCAA tournament. Damn…

If it came down to us being out if Colgate wins, that would almost certainly have me rooting differently. But that's not the situation.

Plus we have a 99.7% chance of getting in, so why root for Harvard?

andyw2100
Root for them to tie us in number of ECAC titles? Sorry-can't do it.

Not only that, it would give Ted Donato his fifth title, tying him with Mike Schafer and Joe Marsh for the most in ECAC history.

Not to mention pushing him past Ned Harkness.

No. The world is not ready for that.

Dafatone

andyw2100

djk26
Ugh--so this weekend is the double torture of losing to Harvard--and then having to root for them in the next game.

Root for them to tie us in number of ECAC titles? Sorry-can't do it.

I'll be there rooting for Colgate and hoping that BU or Saint Cloud get it done.

BU starts a half hour earlier. Hopefully they can put up a half dozen in the first and make rooting a bit more comfortable.

BU and Colgate both winning is definitely the best scenario since we get in along with there other ECAC teams.

BMac
Well, shit.

That’s as close as a game gets. They should be proud. Hopefully toothpaste loses and we’re not done this year.

Interesting that Cornell wanted an off-side call to negate the goal. Also that Coach in his post game comments said a player fell down.

I watched the replay and didn't see anyone fall. What am I missing?

Pretty funny in the St cloud game it ended and they reviewed it for offsides but the replay was of a play going the wrong direction so people thought it was offsides until the realized it...

Merrimack scores first, to torture us. .3 looming large!

could be as much as .4 - Colgate scores first too.

BU will be on a 5 on 3 power play to start the 2nd. But with Colgate's start and BU's offense, rooting for Colgate now is like rooting for them to get an NCAA bid instead of Cornell.

BU ties it on the 5 on 3.

BU looking good, many more chances and has hit 2 posts.

Happy for those of you that rooted for Colgate yesterday. SMH.

Merrimack now up 2-1, 4:50 left in 2nd period

chimpfood
Even if Merrimack loses tomorrow would they even fall behind us after this?

Yes.

Harvard scores one. So does NMU.

Colgate up 2-1.

What's the challenge?

Al DeFlorio
Colgate up 2-1.

3-1

OK, here's what I see.

If BU beats Merrimack, we finish at #12. If Merrimack beats BU, we finish at #13.

Then it all comes down to other bid stealers. If we're #13, we need at least one favorite to win or our season's over.

ugarte

Al DeFlorio
Colgate up 2-1.

3-1

Always funny how Harvard's defense and goaltender seemingly play poorly against any of the other top 4 finishers in the league (at least most of the season in the case of Colgate)

BU ties it with 10:58 left in 3rd.

jkahn
BU ties it with 10:58 left in 3rd.

I'm hitting refresh on the CHN scoreboard at a deranged rate and you're still ahead of me.

Dafatone

jkahn
BU ties it with 10:58 left in 3rd.

I'm hitting refresh on the CHN scoreboard at a deranged rate and you're still ahead of me.

So am I

Whew. Finally updated!

St Cloud leads Colorado College 1-0 after 1.

Mankato scores two goals in the last 3 minutes of the third to tie NMU at 2-2.

And it's going to OT.

And BU - Merrimack also going to OT.

Jeff Hopkins '82
And BU - Merrimack also going to OT.

BU wins! Go 'Gate!

Mankato wins (per USCHO).

We're in.

And just for fun, Michigan leading the Goofers (4-3) with about 7 mins left.

Jeff Hopkins '82
And BU - Merrimack also going to OT.

BU wins!

So we’ll get Michigan first round, correct?

woooooooooooo

And Colgate wins. ECAC gets 4 in.

never in doubt imo

turn on espn and watch yianni go for his 4th straight title RIGHT NOW

chimpfood
So we’ll get Michigan first round, correct?

If they hold on to beat Minnesota, probably. If Minnesota comes back to win, then we likely get BU.

It's awfully nice that Harvard lost.

Thanks, Colgate.

Dafatone
It's awfully nice that Harvard lost.

Thanks, Colgate.

+1

Dafatone
It's awfully nice that Harvard lost.

Thanks, Colgate.

Yeah honestly this is the best result we could've asked for across the board (except us winning the ecac title of course)

Michigan wins.

Jeff Hopkins '82

chimpfood
So we’ll get Michigan first round, correct?

If they hold on to beat Minnesota, probably. If Minnesota comes back to win, then we likely get BU.

With all conference championship games now complete, the final Pairwise (teams in italics are NCAA automatic qualifiers):

1. Minnesota
2. Quinnipiac
3. Michigan
4. Denver
5. BU
6. St. Cloud
7. Harvard
8. Penn State
9. Ohio State
10. Michigan Tech
11. Minnesota State
12. Western Michigan
13. Cornell
14. Merrimack

25. Colgate
41. Canisius

Michigan wins its PWC with Denver, and thus the no. 3 overall ranking, by having a tiny advantage in RPI (.578907 to .578905, per CHN).

I want denver over mich. Go St. Cloud.

This is Trotsky. I cou”d be wrong but I do not think we are in. I think if St. Cloud loses we’re out. 3 dark horses already in (AH, ECAC, CCHA). CC wins and we’re dead. Prove me wrong. Please.

toddlose
Happy for those of you that rooted for Colgate yesterday. SMH.

Today in the rink at the start of the 3rd Janice asked me if we root for Sucks. My reply was that I was rooting for BU and Denver. If Cornell was knocked out by Colgate winning do the hockey gods care who rooted for them?

We could ask Dionne Warwick and the Psychic Friends Network but even poor Dionne grew weary of the razzing she endured for that move.

YMMV!

Let's Go Red.

Anne 85
This is Trotsky. I cou”d be wrong but I do not think we are in. I think if St. Cloud loses we’re out. 3 dark horses already in (AH, ECAC, CCHA). CC wins and we’re dead. Prove me wrong. Please.

Minn state won the CCHA and is ahead of us in the pairwise. We’re in.

we are in with 3 teams behind us. its just whether CC makes it or Merrimack now.

so we would play mich/denv most likely before they start messing with brackets

Never mind. Mankato ahead of us. We’re in.

Anne 85
Never mind. Mankato ahead of us. We’re in.

Had Mankato lost, they would've fallen behind us. So, they weren't gonna matter anyway.

bets news is we avoided Minn in Fargo and Quin in Bridgeport most likely

Mich/Den who goes to Allentown/PSU and who goes to Manchester

So when did cutting up hockey nets after a championship become a thing? I was pretty surprised when Colgate took scissors to the net they defended twice and started hacking away.

upprdeck
bets news is we avoided Minn in Fargo and Quin in Bridgeport most likely

Mich/Den who goes to Allentown/PSU and who goes to Manchester

We were never gonna play Q in the first round. Can't play the same conference in round 1.

Barring a last minute comeback, St. Cloud will win, meaning Merrimack would be the last team in. Wild season when you have 4 ECAC teams and Merrimack getting into the NCAA's as an at-large bid

I feel kinda badly for Alaska. 7th best record in the NCAAs and they're on the outside looking in.

Weak schedule, but on par with ours.

So, Allentown and we play Denver or Michigan, I presume.

Is that Th or Fr?

With all the games now complete (my previous post with the final Pairwise edited to reflect that), adamw's final bracket projection — CHN has us in Manchester playing DU, with BU-Western Michigan the other matchup in that regional.

Fargo and Manchester are Thursday/Saturday; Allentown and Bridgeport are Friday/Sunday.

Anne 85
So, Allentown and we play Denver or Michigan, I presume.

Is that Th or Fr?

Not sure if it's Allentown or Manchester.

Manchester is Thursday. Allentown is Friday.

Jeff Hopkins '82

upprdeck
bets news is we avoided Minn in Fargo and Quin in Bridgeport most likely

Mich/Den who goes to Allentown/PSU and who goes to Manchester

We were never gonna play Q in the first round. Can't play the same conference in round 1.

i wasnt talking first rd. just in general..

Anne 85
So, Allentown and we play Denver or Michigan, I presume.

Is that Th or Fr?

I think maybe Michigan in Manchester. PennState can't play tOSU. Which to move? If you move PSU to Allentown and St Cloud to Fargo...

kingpin248
With all the games now complete (my previous post with the final Pairwise edited to reflect that), adamw's final bracket projection — CHN has us in Manchester playing DU, with BU-Western Michigan the other matchup in that regional.

Fargo and Manchester are Thursday/Saturday; Allentown and Bridgeport are Friday/Sunday.

I came up with the same bracket as Adam's first one.

Jeff Hopkins '82

kingpin248
With all the games now complete (my previous post with the final Pairwise edited to reflect that), adamw's final bracket projection — CHN has us in Manchester playing DU, with BU-Western Michigan the other matchup in that regional.

Fargo and Manchester are Thursday/Saturday; Allentown and Bridgeport are Friday/Sunday.

I came up with the same bracket as Adam's first one.

I like Adam's first bracket too. But I'm wondering if Cornell might possibly be placed in Allentown instead of Manchester. For attendance it might work out better. Flip Cornell with Colgate to achieve this.

With regard to the first bracket, is it possible that the committee will favor it because it places the 4 Big10 teams in 2 locations. Thus at most there would be only 2 Big10 teams in Tampa.

I can't be the only person who thinks they were fortunate a bit more than deserving to have 4 in the top 14 computer ranked spots.

marty

Jeff Hopkins '82

kingpin248
With all the games now complete (my previous post with the final Pairwise edited to reflect that), adamw's final bracket projection — CHN has us in Manchester playing DU, with BU-Western Michigan the other matchup in that regional.

Fargo and Manchester are Thursday/Saturday; Allentown and Bridgeport are Friday/Sunday.

I came up with the same bracket as Adam's first one.

I like Adam's first bracket too. But I'm wondering if Cornell might possibly be placed in Allentown instead of Manchester. For attendance it might work out better. Flip Cornell with Colgate to achieve this.

With regard to the first bracket, is it possible that the committee will favor it because it places the 4 Big10 teams in 2 locations. Thus at most there would be only 2 Big10 teams in Tampa.

I can't be the only person who thinks they were fortunate a bit more than deserving to have 4 in the top 14 computer ranked spots.

I would love it if we ended up in Allentown. After all, I live about 3 miles from the rink.

As to the Big 10 deserving 4 slots, it's an aspect (weakness) of the pairwise. If one team does very well out of conference, all the teams in conference get a bonus. That's especially true if the teams play each other 4 times, like they do in the Big 10. And take a look at Penn State. They went 0.500 in the Big 10, but played all their out of conference games against AHA or Alaska and won them all.

WTF I love the model now

Seems to me like Cornell pretty much has to get Denver.

#1 Minnesota vs #16 Canisius is a given.
Then you have #2 Q and #15 Colgate, so you need to split them up.
The only thing that makes sense is Q vs #14 Merrimack, Colgate vs #3 Michigan.
Which leaves #4 Denver vs #13 Cornell.

If for the sake of argument Cornell got Michigan, then who does Colgate get? Denver? Then you’d be breaking bracket integrity for no reason—you’d have #15 vs #4 and #13 vs #3 rather than #15 vs #3 and #13 vs #4. So I don’t see how Cornell doesn’t end up playing Denver. I’m sure the committee will figure out some way to screw Cornell by giving them Michigan though. (Not saying Denver is easy, just easier than Michigan.)

BearLover
I said it before and I’ll say it again, there is a ridiculous talent disparity between Harvard and the rest of the league. Cornell had better hope that a large number of Harvard’s 15 draft picks leave for the pros, and that something happens in the coming years to close the talent gap. This isn’t tenable.

I’ve thought about this and laughed to myself multiple times over the past couple days.

“This isn’t tenable.” Please spare me this.

It’s always been this way, going back to the 50s where Harvard had a huge head start until 1963, when Ned started fighting back with recruiting strategies that had an internationally renowned university such as Harvard relying on jingoistic nationalism to call foul on our “foreigners.”

Harvard players won 3 Hobeys in the 80s and were absolutely loaded with talent the entire decade. Clearly got his NC in OT in ‘89 and cranked out a teams who loaded the US national/Olympic rosters of that era and had lots of players go to the nhl. Yet they only won 2 league championships from the Divorce to the end of the Cleary / beginning of the Schafer eras. We had our lowest points during that time period.

Yet who still is winning the race in head-to-head record, in ECACs championships, and in Ivy titles? Cornell has somehow overcome the recruiting and geographic advantages Harvard has now, has always had, and always will have in this rivalry. The players they get are of a different type than the ones we get. They have always had more “blue chippahs” than us. Yet, we still have the record book to point to.

But hey draft picks… wait, sorry, you said “ridiculous talent disparity” had us taking them to OT, in 2 of 3 games. Both teams are top 10 in offensive output. Both are top 10 in defense. There is simply not a “ridiculous disparity” there. The ridiculous talent disparity between them and the rest of the league sure was on display against Colgate, wasn’t it?

It’s tenable. And I don’t expect either team to fade anytime soon.

djk26
Ugh--so this weekend is the double torture of losing to Harvard--and then having to root for them in the next game.

I guess yesterday was the best of all possible results--four ECAC teams (apparently) in the NCAA tournament, and most importantly, Cornell is one of them. We can talk about how it would have been nice to have an easier path to the Frozen Four, but the fact is, we had some bad losses this year and any at large can't complain about where they are placed.

It did make the cheers more complicated yesterday...

"Screw BU, Harvard too, but only to the extent that either result will not hurt Cornell's relative placement in the Pair Wise Rankings."

Hard to chant.

Let's go Red!

A Denver matchup would also put us “against” Ben Scrivens, who’s their current team manager.

Agree with Rich. The rivalry is fairly even with each team having short runs of success before the balance tips back. Although we lost three times this year (two of which were winnable), we won some hardware and they did not. And no they are not going to win the NCAA trophy.

In 1986 my apartment mate and I watched Letterman then hopped in his Honda and drove all night to Newark and hopped on a Peoples Express flight to Dallas. Barely made our connection to Denver. Went to the the chapter of his fraternity (can’t recall which one) at the Colorado School of Mines in Golden. They were on spring break and the boys graciously allowed this non-member to crash at their place and even fed us. We went to the NCAA quarterfinals at DU’s old place. Nasty fans iirc. We lose game 1, 4-2 in a two game total goal set. We take a 4-1 lead in game two but end up “winning” 4-3. Not good enough in Dadswell’s last game. Great weekend even if disappointing end. Recall people tho king we were Cornell College in Iowa. Ego deflating.

arugula
In 1986 my apartment mate and I watched Letterman then hopped in his Honda and drove all night to Newark and hopped on a Peoples Express flight to Dallas. Barely made our connection to Denver. Went to the the chapter of his fraternity (can’t recall which one) at the Colorado School of Mines in Golden. They were on spring break and the boys graciously allowed this non-member to crash at their place and even fed us. We went to the NCAA quarterfinals at DU’s old place. Nasty fans iirc. We lose game 1, 4-2 in a two game total goal set. We take a 4-1 lead in game two but end up “winning” 4-3. Not good enough in Dadswell’s last game. Great weekend even if disappointing end. Recall people tho king we were Cornell College in Iowa. Ego deflating.

I was a senior. My future first wife and I were skiing in Vermont for spring break. I remember finding a newspaper with the scores, and, of course, being annoyed at how the total goals format had screwed us.

Better than a one and done though. It was sae at Colorado school of mines. Thanks to SAE many years later.

Interesting thing about that series was that, unlike now, we were way smaller than our opponent. I recall virtually their entire roster was over six feet and maybe 2-3 of our guys were-Nieuwendyk of course. Schafer’s last game.

Playing thurs-sat.

I wonder how that messes with attendance?

Its one thing to get out on Thursday to play friday but now people may have to miss 2-3 days of work to watch this thing.

upprdeck
Playing thurs-sat.

I wonder how that messes with attendance?

Its one thing to get out on Thursday to play friday but now people may have to miss 2-3 days of work to watch this thing.

Putting an off-day in the regionals was the worst possible idea anyone could have come up with.

RichH

BearLover
I said it before and I’ll say it again, there is a ridiculous talent disparity between Harvard and the rest of the league. Cornell had better hope that a large number of Harvard’s 15 draft picks leave for the pros, and that something happens in the coming years to close the talent gap. This isn’t tenable.

I’ve thought about this and laughed to myself multiple times over the past couple days.

“This isn’t tenable.” Please spare me this.

It’s always been this way, going back to the 50s where Harvard had a huge head start until 1963, when Ned started fighting back with recruiting strategies that had an internationally renowned university such as Harvard relying on jingoistic nationalism to call foul on our “foreigners.”

Harvard players won 3 Hobeys in the 80s and were absolutely loaded with talent the entire decade. Clearly got his NC in OT in ‘89 and cranked out a teams who loaded the US national/Olympic rosters of that era and had lots of players go to the nhl. Yet they only won 2 league championships from the Divorce to the end of the Cleary / beginning of the Schafer eras. We had our lowest points during that time period.

Yet who still is winning the race in head-to-head record, in ECACs championships, and in Ivy titles? Cornell has somehow overcome the recruiting and geographic advantages Harvard has now, has always had, and always will have in this rivalry. The players they get are of a different type than the ones we get. They have always had more “blue chippahs” than us. Yet, we still have the record book to point to.

But hey draft picks… wait, sorry, you said “ridiculous talent disparity” had us taking them to OT, in 2 of 3 games. Both teams are top 10 in offensive output. Both are top 10 in defense. There is simply not a “ridiculous disparity” there. The ridiculous talent disparity between them and the rest of the league sure was on display against Colgate, wasn’t it?

It’s tenable. And I don’t expect either team to fade anytime soon.

Well I’m certainly honored to hear that my forum posts carry enough weight to occupy so large a space in your mind that you’ll think about a single post multiple times over a span of days.

Your argument essentially boils down to: Harvard has always had these same recruiting advantages, but we’ve been more successful than them anyway. Maybe, but that’s not responding to the crux of my post. By “not tenable,” I’m talking about current trends, not history from 50 years ago. Current trends clearly suggest that Harvard is going to pass us in ECAC titles and NCAA success soon and Cornell’s route to an ECAC championship is going to remain as narrow as it has been for over a decade now.

The fact we’re still ahead in the metrics you cited (head-to-head, Ivy titles, ECAC championships) just isn’t persuasive. That’s like saying Georgetown basketball shouldn’t worry about Villanova because they win the historical head-to-head, have more league titles, etc. If Harvard wins the Ivy and ECAC next year and ties us in both categories, will you change your tune?

I could just as easily cherry-pick historical stats to show Harvard has surpassed us. Their most recent national championship is 19 years more recent than our last one. Their most recent frozen four is 14 years more recent than our last one. They’ve won three ECAC titles since we last won one. I don’t find these arguments which rely on one-off events persuasive either, but at least they speak to recent trends rather than old history.

The biggest problem with your point that Harvard has always had these advantages is that you speak only to the direction of the advantage, but not to the degree. Yes, Harvard has for many decades held a recruiting advantage. But in the Schafer era that advantage has never been as large as it is now. 15 draft picks for them to 3 for us. 9 Harvard players on NHL opening night rosters as compared to 1 Cornell player (with Farrell and Coronato soon to follow). This isn’t a point about direction of the talent disparity, it’s a point about degree.

Cornell will continue to compete for NCAA bids and ECAC titles into the future. But Harvard has lapped us in recruiting and is frankly just a more successful program overall right now (with no signs of slowing down whatsoever).

BearLover
WTF I love the model now

hard to argue when it's proven accurate

Just wrote in the incoming recruit thread that Cornell’s recent recruiting seems outstanding. Next year brings 2 drafted players & the 2nd highest scoring F & 4th highest scoring D in the USHL. Plus Cornell has 4 other ranked prospects in the NHL’s Central Scouring midterm draft rankings.

So now that the stress is over, here's what I was gonna day about the math.

If all the games going into this weekend were coin flips, our odds of getting in were 29/32. That's over 90%. And we wanted favorites to win in each case.

What were the actual odds Colgate beat Q? Well, if Q was 30-3-3 and Colgate right around .500, that suggests Q beats an average team (like Colgate) something like 31.5 out of 36 games. That's a little under 8 out of 9 times.

Now it doesn't actually work this way. Teams get hot and cold. When you get towards the end of the conference tournaments, the only teams left are teams playing well. Colorado College was outright bad this year, but they beat some very good teams.

Still, the odds favored the favorites, as they do. Vegas odds last night had Harvard at something like -210 to win, which I think translates to just over 66%. I'm not saying Vegas odds are perfect, but if they were systematically off in a given direction, someone out there would be getting rich off of it.

All in all, I bet our odds were actually quite high. 99.7%? Probably not. But the 97 or 98 percent thrown out as a suggestion sounds right to me.

A lot more went wrong than right and we still got in with an extra spot to spare.

CU2007
Putting an off-day in the regionals was the worst possible idea anyone could have come up with.

... for the fans.

Giving the players an extra day to recuperate, that's not so bad.

Making two day trips to Allentown or Bridgeport is cheaper than hotel rooms for metro NY fans. To Manchester, it's either get a hotel room or watch the broadcast.

and not for nothing..

Scheduling the finals to go against the Masters and on Easter weekend is also not gonna play well with people traveling or watching on TV for ratings. They would have been better served to add a week to the season and start playoffs a week later.

The off day seems overwhelmingly likely to diminish attendance. Especially when the games on a Thursday start at 2pm for whatever reason.

I understand the motivation behind the off day. Teams playing long overtimes and then again on short rest probably diminish the quality of the product. But if we're moving to off days, can we go back to two regionals? Run them Thursday through Sunday with 8 teams at each site. Make it more worth the while of a college hockey fan to go.

At each of the east and west sites:
Thursday: bracket a semis
Friday: bracket b semis
Sat: bracket a final
Sun: bracket b final

(If the Fri games were early starts, may even make the bracket b final the back end of two on Saturday and run the whole thing in three days.)

I don't like the idea of campus sites but that feels inevitable if four regionals with off days lead to mostly empty buildings.

but they play all yr with back 2 back games.. and not every game goes to OT so they occasional one might cause an issue but thats the way it goes.

BearLover

Well I’m certainly honored to hear that my forum posts carry enough weight to occupy so large a space in your mind that you’ll think about a single post multiple times over a span of days.

Hey, don't sell yourself short. You usually come here with a sledgehammer pounding away at the same takes over and over and over and over, and tend to refuse to just say your peace and let things go. You've proven to be a dominant and persistent personality here, so you're pretty hard to ignore. You're clearly knowledgeable and strongly opinionated, and while you participate here in good faith, to me you're often a little over the top in the "LISTEN TO ME, I'M RIGHT" sense. No biggie, but when I do think about the positioning of this program we love, yes, your takes are going to come up in my thoughts. No need to be snarkily modest.

I'll only say that you misunderstood the point of my hazy late-night post. The point I was trying to make wasn't "we've won a lot in the past so therefore we're just as successful." It was "people have been saying exactly what you're saying now for literally decades, and the pendulum always seems to swing back." Can I guarantee we won't fall off or tread water as Harvard zooms off to become the BC of the 2020s? Nope, but I can't guarantee the opposite, either. It's easy outside this fanbase to forget that Cornell was one of the 2-3 favorites to win the National Championship exactly 3 years ago just when the world shuttered on our dreams. (Men *and* Women). I'd argue that this isn't even Harvard's best team in the past 5 years seasons, despite your precious draft-pick boner metric.

People were saying this about Allan and Yale just 10 years ago. They are the future of the league, and the Schafer is stuck in his past ways unable to adapt to a new style, etc etc etc. Well, Yale got their NC, yes, but the Yale program is back to the punching bag division. Coach Mike has adapted his recruiting and style subtly, and still is grabbing at-large bids on the regular.

If Harvard is so far ahead of the league, I ask again, where are those results? Yes, they're in the top tier of our league. But they haven't been as dominant as you're selling them. Their top line can dismantle most patsies, but they are taken to OT by lesser teams an awful lot, and the OT rules simply favor having a top line built like that.

This is one of those eras where both Cornell and Harvard happen to be in an "up" period. The pendulum always seems to swing to and fro, and I don't expect that to change. It's always been a great rivalry for that reason.

OK, fair enough. I agree by the way that Harvard’s 2017 team was better.

billhoward

CU2007
Putting an off-day in the regionals was the worst possible idea anyone could have come up with.

... for the fans.

Giving the players an extra day to recuperate, that's not so bad.

Making two day trips to Allentown or Bridgeport is cheaper than hotel rooms for metro NY fans. To Manchester, it's either get a hotel room or watch the broadcast.

Or crash at your sister's place in Mass. Which is my plan.

upprdeck
and not for nothing..

Scheduling the finals to go against the Masters and on Easter weekend is also not gonna play well with people traveling or watching on TV for ratings. They would have been better served to add a week to the season and start playoffs a week later.

NCAA basketball is designed to end around April 1. NCAA hockey is assigned its finals weekend for the next weekend. I don't think the NCAA worries a lot about the Masters draining away hockey viewers and the hockey title game tips off a couple hours after the third round of the Masters has ended. Easter? Well, you catch it next year.

billhoward

upprdeck
and not for nothing..

Scheduling the finals to go against the Masters and on Easter weekend is also not gonna play well with people traveling or watching on TV for ratings. They would have been better served to add a week to the season and start playoffs a week later.

NCAA basketball is designed to end around April 1. NCAA hockey is assigned its finals weekend for the next weekend. I don't think the NCAA worries a lot about the Masters draining away hockey viewers and the hockey title game tips off a couple hours after the third round of the Masters has ended. Easter? Well, you catch it next year on Sunday morning.

FYP

BearLover

RichH

BearLover
I said it before and I’ll say it again, there is a ridiculous talent disparity between Harvard and the rest of the league. Cornell had better hope that a large number of Harvard’s 15 draft picks leave for the pros, and that something happens in the coming years to close the talent gap. This isn’t tenable.

I’ve thought about this and laughed to myself multiple times over the past couple days.

“This isn’t tenable.” Please spare me this.

It’s always been this way, going back to the 50s where Harvard had a huge head start until 1963, when Ned started fighting back with recruiting strategies that had an internationally renowned university such as Harvard relying on jingoistic nationalism to call foul on our “foreigners.”

Harvard players won 3 Hobeys in the 80s and were absolutely loaded with talent the entire decade. Clearly got his NC in OT in ‘89 and cranked out a teams who loaded the US national/Olympic rosters of that era and had lots of players go to the nhl. Yet they only won 2 league championships from the Divorce to the end of the Cleary / beginning of the Schafer eras. We had our lowest points during that time period.

Yet who still is winning the race in head-to-head record, in ECACs championships, and in Ivy titles? Cornell has somehow overcome the recruiting and geographic advantages Harvard has now, has always had, and always will have in this rivalry. The players they get are of a different type than the ones we get. They have always had more “blue chippahs” than us. Yet, we still have the record book to point to.

But hey draft picks… wait, sorry, you said “ridiculous talent disparity” had us taking them to OT, in 2 of 3 games. Both teams are top 10 in offensive output. Both are top 10 in defense. There is simply not a “ridiculous disparity” there. The ridiculous talent disparity between them and the rest of the league sure was on display against Colgate, wasn’t it?

It’s tenable. And I don’t expect either team to fade anytime soon.

Well I’m certainly honored to hear that my forum posts carry enough weight to occupy so large a space in your mind that you’ll think about a single post multiple times over a span of days.

Your argument essentially boils down to: Harvard has always had these same recruiting advantages, but we’ve been more successful than them anyway. Maybe, but that’s not responding to the crux of my post. By “not tenable,” I’m talking about current trends, not history from 50 years ago. Current trends clearly suggest that Harvard is going to pass us in ECAC titles and NCAA success soon and Cornell’s route to an ECAC championship is going to remain as narrow as it has been for over a decade now.

The fact we’re still ahead in the metrics you cited (head-to-head, Ivy titles, ECAC championships) just isn’t persuasive. That’s like saying Georgetown basketball shouldn’t worry about Villanova because they win the historical head-to-head, have more league titles, etc. If Harvard wins the Ivy and ECAC next year and ties us in both categories, will you change your tune?

I could just as easily cherry-pick historical stats to show Harvard has surpassed us. Their most recent national championship is 19 years more recent than our last one. Their most recent frozen four is 14 years more recent than our last one. They’ve won three ECAC titles since we last won one. I don’t find these arguments which rely on one-off events persuasive either, but at least they speak to recent trends rather than old history.

The biggest problem with your point that Harvard has always had these advantages is that you speak only to the direction of the advantage, but not to the degree. Yes, Harvard has for many decades held a recruiting advantage. But in the Schafer era that advantage has never been as large as it is now. 15 draft picks for them to 3 for us. 9 Harvard players on NHL opening night rosters as compared to 1 Cornell player (with Farrell and Coronato soon to follow). This isn’t a point about direction of the talent disparity, it’s a point about degree.

Cornell will continue to compete for NCAA bids and ECAC titles into the future. But Harvard has lapped us in recruiting and is frankly just a more successful program overall right now (with no signs of slowing down whatsoever).

Harvard hasn't had 15 picks on their team every year. More picks than us? Yes. But not this many. That begs a few questions:

Is 15 a blip or a trend? It's more likely a high blip than anything permanent.

What is Harvard doing to get such big classes with draftees? Is it business as usual or has something changed?



Let's not forget that Ted Donato spent 12 years in the nhl. That's a big selling point we can't remotely match. If you're a high end talent and you want to get to the show, a coach who's been there and knows all the ins and outs etc should be a big help to your development.

Playing that long, and being ~55yo, gives donato
an interesting demographic edge as well. He will have played with a slew of guys who's kids are recruiting age. So that network effect might grab Harvard a few more kids of NHLers.

Let's also not forget that geography wise we're screwed. If you look at the hockey hotbeds around the country, we get very few of those kids. Michigan, Minnesota, Boston schools as a group, etc...they all get their pick of the locals. (Not to mention that there's a lot less effort involved when you are scouting and recruiting kids within a couple hour drive of campus as opposed to going after guys in nainamo.). Can we find some pockets or under recruited areas? Possibly. But we will always be at a disadvantage because there's no local base.

half the places we are trying to recruit you cant even fly too

upprdeck
half the places we are trying to recruit you cant even fly to

To be fair, you can barely fly to Ithaca.

upprdeck
half the places we are trying to recruit you cant even fly too

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