Union @ Cornell

ACM

upprdeck
I dont know I never realized that the major becomes a new PP after a goal is scored.. Maybe its because we never seemed to score on them..

did anyone look up fastest 4 goal stretches.. 4 in a min is pretty crazy

Three goals in 22 seconds might be a Cornell record for fastest 3 goals. The Cornell Hockey Record Book (image attached) shows 3 goals in 24 seconds in a game back in 1976, but the Record Book only goes through the 1986-87 season, and I don't have the means (or the desire) to check the intervening 36 years.
I've never researched fastest 4 goals. I do recall Carlo Ugolini scoring 4 goals in 53 seconds in a freshman game, though.

Carlo Ugolini '73, nickname The Magician, was a classic Harkness-era recruit, scrappy if not big (I loved how at 5-foot-7 I could look him straight in the eyes) and, legend has it, he talked his way into a number of second assists and possibly one when he was in the penalty box. (Hey, if Uri Geller could bend a spoon with his nose...) Sixty-nine points senior year, didn't even make the All-America team. Cornell played fewer games then but we beat a lot of early-season opponents by 9-4, 7-1 kinds of scores.

John Fumio the same era, same size and energy -- think Topher Scott size, but in the era of plaid slacks and leather coats -- who took a shot in the face, lost a tooth, and I'm trying to recall if he finished the game. This is the era before dental implants made human teeth more expendable.

Arthur, about Record Book stats from the Harkness-Bertrand-McCutcheon-Reycroft coaching era, there is -- will? -- always be someone with a desire to better capture history. When he was at Cornell, Donald Kagan History wrote *four volumes* on the outbreak of the Peloponnesian War. One of these is more important.

a database would make this pretty easy to figure out and compute without having to go look for stuff. I know we have something here is listed even if it doesnt work.

upprdeck
I dont know I never realized that the major becomes a new PP after a goal is scored.. Maybe its because we never seemed to score on them.

* Which makes 2023 a nice outlier
* There can never be a perfect (eg 4 goals, or 5) five-minute powerplay. If even one tick of the five-minute timer is left, there's a one-second PP opportunity that you don't score on.
* On the plus side, a team that can't score on a 5-minute power play is oh-for-one, not oh-for-2.5.

billhoward

upprdeck
I dont know I never realized that the major becomes a new PP after a goal is scored.. Maybe its because we never seemed to score on them.

* Which makes 2023 a nice outlier
* There can never be a perfect (eg 4 goals, or 5) five-minute powerplay. If even one tick of the five-minute timer is left, there's a one-second PP opportunity.

But, cf, Union v Colgate, 2/3/2023

Carnegie Mellon did have a team - for 3 years - just prior to WW II. When it was known as Carnegie Tech.

Pitt also had a team - first when it was known as "Western University of Pennsylvania", even before 1900 ... and then two of the same three years CM had a team.

[www.collegehockeynews.com]

Done quite a bit of research on all the Pittsburgh area schools. Things were quite active a few years with them, and teams in Ohio. And Ivies would go to Pittsburgh and play tournaments.

upprdeck
a database would make this pretty easy to figure out and compute without having to go look for stuff. I know we have something here is listed even if it doesnt work.

Even if there was a database of every goal, its time and game -- computing "fastest in xx span" is not easy. I know because I have this data dating back to 2002 for all of college hockey, and the entire NHL, and I haven't gotten around to writing a method for computing it yet, because it's challenging. And I do this for a living. Game level spans are hard enough - "for any floating x game span" ... I've done it for NHL. Haven't done it yet for NCAA.

Official box score confirms: Cornell's 5 goals were scored on 5 shots with nothing else occurring in between except for the 4 faceoffs and 2 wide Cornell shots between goals 2 and 3. There were not only no other shots, there were no other stoppages. Holy hell.

upprdeck
a database would make this pretty easy to figure out and compute without having to go look for stuff. I know we have something here is listed even if it doesnt work.

I actually built a database with every Cornell (and opponent) goal since the program restart.

I could write a query and test this. But I have never actually written a query that walks through the data that way (if I did that I could do *a lot* of analysis). Maybe in retirement.

Trotsky
Official box score confirms: Cornell's 5 goals were scored on 5 shots with nothing else occurring in between except for the 4 faceoffs and 2 wide Cornell shots between goals 2 and 3. There were not only no other shots, there were no other stoppages. Holy hell.

We only had four shots on goal in an entire major? Cmon, get it together team.

I feel nerdsniped.

Can I get the schema for the db?

I think it’s something like:
For each game order the CU goals by time and generate a row_number
For each game, compute the shortest period between two goals by self-joining on row_number = row_number + 1 and subtracting the timestamps, then taking the min of the results.
Do the same for 2, 3, 4, etc up to the max number of goals in a game. Use a left join to prevent joins beyond the number of possible goals. It’s a manual query build but it’s ok since there’s what 12-15 max goals in a game?

If you get me a schema I’ll try it….

BMac
I feel nerdsniped.

Can I get the schema for the db?

I think it’s something like:
For each game order the CU goals by time and generate a row_number
For each game, compute the shortest period between two goals by self-joining on row_number = row_number + 1 and subtracting the timestamps, then taking the min of the results.
Do the same for 2, 3, 4, etc up to the max number of goals in a game. Use a left join to prevent joins beyond the number of possible goals. It’s a manual query build but it’s ok since there’s what 12-15 max goals in a game?

If you get me a schema I’ll try it….

I'll give you the whole db, it's Access. I have been happily giving it away for years and strongly suspect it is why the SID's records got a lot better (without acknowledgement because TRADITION!).

BMac
I feel nerdsniped.

Can I get the schema for the db?

I think it’s something like:
For each game order the CU goals by time and generate a row_number
For each game, compute the shortest period between two goals by self-joining on row_number = row_number + 1 and subtracting the timestamps, then taking the min of the results.
Do the same for 2, 3, 4, etc up to the max number of goals in a game. Use a left join to prevent joins beyond the number of possible goals. It’s a manual query build but it’s ok since there’s what 12-15 max goals in a game?

If you get me a schema I’ll try it….

There's fancier ways to do this - with WINDOW functions. But if I told you, I'd have to kill you.

If you can figure out the right way to do this with a window function, good on you. I spent a little time thinking about it and figured it was easier to just build progressive CTEs manually for each goal amount since we don’t need more than 12-15ish….

I’m sure it’s possible though. I’ve even done regressive sql before and felt like a golden god

I'm in favor of having all stats dating to Beebe Lake days being digitized and query-able. By somebody else. I'm sort of in favor of handing them off to Chatbot GPT.

There is a danger that people having to write a Wednesday hockey column or fill dead air while there's yet another video replay will clamp onto a numerical pattern that has been calculated to several decimal places yet has no actual value: Say, Cornell's record in one-goal games played after Coach has come back from an illness or game suspension, when Cornell is wearing white jerseys in Friday road games. You hear NFL announcers discussing whether to go for it on fourth down when the team has been 3 of 5 on recent non-punting fourth downs with less than 2 yards to go as if 60% odds guarantee the next one will work.

I did like the magic of the Celtics Bill Russell speaking to the mystery of whether the game clock reading :02 (pre-tenths on the clock) has 2.1 seconds or 2.9 seconds and you're down by one. That was poetry, not data.

billhoward
I'm in favor of having all stats dating to Beebe Lake days being digitized and query-able. By somebody else. I'm sort of in favor of handing them off to Chatbot GPT.

I'm working on it, dammit.

I dont think anyway its designed is gonna be that big a deal.

just ball park it say 75 yrs at 30 games so 2000 games at like at best 4 goals a game so 8000 rows.

any query for fastest 4 goals can ignore all the non 4+ goal games so probably cuts it by 1/2 - 2/3

just store the goals in order and go 1 to 4, 2 to 5, stop with x+3 greater than max goals..

probably could run thru it for any number of goals in a few seconds.
a query with a sub query for the +y.

The goals are already ordered. There are 7,103 of them for Cornell.

I had no intention of using database queries to do the work, I was planning on outputting the records to a data file and then writing a simple C++ program to do it. (Yes, I know, I'm old, be happy it's not PL/1 and get away from me with your heathen post-1983 data structures).

I was assuming I would run through them all, create a table and for each row record count n the # of uninterrupted Cornell goals it was and then dump the time elapsed for the prior 1, 2, ... n-1 Cornell goals into a linked list.

Then take that table and do the simple metrics.

I like thorough solutions. With 7k records the run time will be trivial.

So sure has been discussed before but is there any chance in relatively near future that UPenn and Columbia get D-I hockey programs and Ivy can form a new 8-team conference with an autobid? Then Atlantic and ECAC can maybe merge and improve?

Hello, new poster here '05 grad now in Boston. 2003 was my sophomore year, had season tix. Thought that is how things were and would make Frozen Four every few years lol. Was in Buffalo for the national semifinal loss. Been at Lynah East, Brown & MSG games for most years since. Was at Placid last time Red there few years ago, sat next to Vanderlaans dad for that loss. Happy to join you all here on eLynah!

Welcome.

There has never been any talk of Columbia going above club level.

Penn has a great barn. It used to be a perennial suggestion that they might restore their program, which was still active in the mid-70s, but other than a very dedicated and tiny Penn hockey cult I know of no serious measure.

IMO it is more likely Brown drops D-1 someday than Penn adds.

Penn brings back hockey.. does not rejoin the ivy because they want to have scholies. they become decent as an independent because they are located close to so many. This forces the ivies to get out of the dark ages

617BigRed
So sure has been discussed before but is there any chance in relatively near future that UPenn and Columbia get D-I hockey programs and Ivy can form a new 8-team conference with an autobid?!

Pretty sure you only need 6 teams in a conference for the auto-bid.

I guess that leads to the modified question of why the ECAC doesn't split into two conferences so they get two auto-bids. Teams could still play exactly the same regular season schedule - calling ivy vs. non-ivy games OOC, just hold two post-season tournaments

doesnt it take a yr or 2 for this to happen though

BMac
If you can figure out the right way to do this with a window function, good on you. I spent a little time thinking about it and figured it was easier to just build progressive CTEs manually for each goal amount since we don’t need more than 12-15ish….

I’m sure it’s possible though. I’ve even done regressive sql before and felt like a golden god

I've done it with Window functions. Just not on the event level. Only on a game level (i.e. most goals in any 20-game rolling span). In fact, this is (half)-implemented on College Hockey News right now. I say half, because it's finding X-game spans from beginning or end of season -- which is slightly easier than ANY rolling x-game span, though has its own challenges.

Event level would be the same thing, in essence.

marty

DL

marty

DL
Anyone have a link to video of the scoring breakout?

This!

Thanks! Shame it was just highlights instead of full play time surrounding the goals, considering how short it was.

13 minutes and 13 seconds for your entertainment.

What a rush. Thank you!

DL

marty

DL

marty

DL
Anyone have a link to video of the scoring breakout?

This!

Thanks! Shame it was just highlights instead of full play time surrounding the goals, considering how short it was.

13 minutes and 13 seconds for your entertainment.

What a rush. Thank you!

I didn't see Nick Young put up his dukes to incur the penalty - I was in section L on Saturday. But I had seen someone else belt one of the Cornell players earlier in the period in a similar move. Couldn't feel bad for Union after realizing that at least one of the soon to be formerly known as Dutchman was getting a well deserved penalty.

adamw

upprdeck
a database would make this pretty easy to figure out and compute without having to go look for stuff. I know we have something here is listed even if it doesnt work.

Even if there was a database of every goal, its time and game -- computing "fastest in xx span" is not easy. I know because I have this data dating back to 2002 for all of college hockey, and the entire NHL, and I haven't gotten around to writing a method for computing it yet, because it's challenging. And I do this for a living. Game level spans are hard enough - "for any floating x game span" ... I've done it for NHL. Haven't done it yet for NCAA.

Serious suggestion, not trolling.

Ask ChatGPT to write the code (or do the task)


From [platform.openai.com]

Using source data to write database functions.
Just as a human programmer would benefit from understanding the database structure and the column names, Codex can use this data to help you write accurate query requests. In this example we insert the schema for a database and tell Codex what to query the database for.

# Table albums, columns = [AlbumId, Title, ArtistId]
# Table artists, columns = [ArtistId, Name]
# Table media_types, columns = [MediaTypeId, Name]
# Table playlists, columns = [PlaylistId, Name]
# Table playlist_track, columns = [PlaylistId, TrackId]
# Table tracks, columns = [TrackId, Name, AlbumId, MediaTypeId, GenreId, Composer, Milliseconds, Bytes, UnitPrice]

# Create a query for all albums by Adele

Trotsky

billhoward
I'm in favor of having all stats dating to Beebe Lake days being digitized and query-able. By somebody else. I'm sort of in favor of handing them off to Chatbot GPT.

I'm working on it, dammit.

You think that if you retire or scale back to half-time, you'll have time. Except you'll do things such as sleep 'til eleven that suck up your day.

My plan was to organize a million photos -- paper, film, slide, old diplomas and yearbooks -- which I started in 2014 while working full-time, I did maybe 10,000 images and in that period added ~50K digital images. Organizing hockey stats or photos takes a stable personality. More correctly, an Augean Stable personality.

upprdeck
Penn brings back hockey.. does not rejoin the ivy because they want to have scholies. they become decent as an independent because they are located close to so many. This forces the ivies to get out of the dark ages

Hand around that joint. If there's any left.

The Pennsylvania Class of 1923 (mostly them) funded the rink that opened in 1970. The rink Wiki page notes it holds 2,500 (for "hockey / indoor football" and further notes it is the second largest college rink in the state behind only Penn State's Pegula Arena (6,014). By 1978 men's varsity hockey was gone. Penn made a bunch of spending cuts that year, many were rescinded, not hockey.

Penn has a women's 'student organization' hockey team; that seems to sound like club hockey.

If hockey came back, it'd have to be two teams, not one. It's not impossible. The NHL is as far south as Florida, Arizona, California. Other than Arizona State, Princeton sits at 40 degrees North latitude, Lindenwood (I had to look it up) in St. Lous at 39 degrees. So it's not crazy that Penn wouldn't at some day come back. Maybe Maryland and Rutgers would give it a good in the Big10. If I was a Class of '23 at Penn, I'd be pissed my donation mattered for less than a decade. IIRC, there was a donor-VIP box, glassed in, on stilts (?), at the rink.

More stats is sort of good. But there's other historical-more-than-statisical stuff: when Clarkson sweaters went from okay to terrible, the year Union players allegedly got in some sort of racist/religious mischief, the highest temperatures in visitor locker rooms (did Harkness retire that award), the longest road trips by bus, attendance vs. rink capcity, the geo-center of the ECAC (I tried that once drawing lines and the center is pretty close to Albany), etcetera. Also which rinks have and which viewer feeds get overhead goal cam views.

billhoward
Also which rinks have and which viewer feeds get overhead goal cam views.

This just reminded me. RPI used to have 2 over each goal. One official cam and one RPI TV cam.

Maybe Ursaminor can comment, but did the RPI TV free live feed die? Are they allowed to archive the games?

nshapiro
I guess that leads to the modified question of why the ECAC doesn't split into two conferences so they get two auto-bids.

It's ready to be split:

• 6 in the Ivy Division
• 6 in the Safety Division

If the Bobcats had a sense of humor -- they do or did have the Ed McMahon School of Broadcasting -- fan T-shirts would say The Last Shall Be First.

marty

billhoward
Also which rinks have and which viewer feeds get overhead goal cam views.

This just reminded me. RPI used to have 2 over each goal. One official cam and one RPI TV cam.

Maybe Ursaminor can comment, but did the RPI TV free live feed die? Are they allowed to archive the games?

Probably. Fricking students were embarrassing professional video crews.

marty

billhoward
Also which rinks have and which viewer feeds get overhead goal cam views.

This just reminded me. RPI used to have 2 over each goal. One official cam and one RPI TV cam.

Maybe Ursaminor can comment, but did the RPI TV free live feed die? Are they allowed to archive the games?

The free feed died because the league demanded it. I heard that they did archive games, but the website is under maintenance, so I can't check. They are not on their You-Tube channel.

ursusminor

marty

billhoward
Also which rinks have and which viewer feeds get overhead goal cam views.

This just reminded me. RPI used to have 2 over each goal. One official cam and one RPI TV cam.

Maybe Ursaminor can comment, but did the RPI TV free live feed die? Are they allowed to archive the games?

The free feed died because the league demanded it. I heard that they did archive games, but the website is under maintenance, so I can't check. They are not on their You-Tube channel.

ESPN Minus

DL

marty

DL

marty

DL
Anyone have a link to video of the scoring breakout?

This!

Thanks! Shame it was just highlights instead of full play time surrounding the goals, considering how short it was.

13 minutes and 13 seconds for your entertainment.

What a rush. Thank you!

Seriously, thank you for the highlight reel!

marty

ursusminor

marty

billhoward
Also which rinks have and which viewer feeds get overhead goal cam views.

This just reminded me. RPI used to have 2 over each goal. One official cam and one RPI TV cam.

Maybe Ursaminor can comment, but did the RPI TV free live feed die? Are they allowed to archive the games?

The free feed died because the league demanded it. I heard that they did archive games, but the website is under maintenance, so I can't check. They are not on their You-Tube channel.

ESPN Minus

To Fail Sports Fans. Anytime. Anywhere

The Rancor

DL

marty

DL

marty

DL
Anyone have a link to video of the scoring breakout?

This!

Thanks! Shame it was just highlights instead of full play time surrounding the goals, considering how short it was.

13 minutes and 13 seconds for your entertainment.

What a rush. Thank you!

Seriously, thank you for the highlight reel!

It's always nice to see Union playing to its potential.

ursusminor

The Rancor

DL

marty

DL

marty

DL
Anyone have a link to video of the scoring breakout?

This!

Thanks! Shame it was just highlights instead of full play time surrounding the goals, considering how short it was.

13 minutes and 13 seconds for your entertainment.

What a rush. Thank you!

Seriously, thank you for the highlight reel!

It's always nice to see Union playing to its potential.

OTOH.

The Rancor

DL

marty

DL

marty

DL
Anyone have a link to video of the scoring breakout?

This!

Thanks! Shame it was just highlights instead of full play time surrounding the goals, considering how short it was.

13 minutes and 13 seconds for your entertainment.

What a rush. Thank you!

Seriously, thank you for the highlight reel!

Booooo. Fail at properly tagging the YouTube content.

I wanted to save that video to my watch later or other list for future viewing, but I can't because Marty tagged the video as "content made for kids". That's not a made for kids video.

[support.google.com]

abmarks

The Rancor

DL

marty

DL

marty

DL
Anyone have a link to video of the scoring breakout?

This!

Thanks! Shame it was just highlights instead of full play time surrounding the goals, considering how short it was.

13 minutes and 13 seconds for your entertainment.

What a rush. Thank you!

Seriously, thank you for the highlight reel!

Booooo. Fail at properly tagging the YouTube content.

I wanted to save that video to my watch later or other list for future viewing, but I can't because Marty tagged the video as "content made for kids". That's not a made for kids video.

[support.google.com]

Fixed

marty

Fixed

Excellent. Tx!

marty

ursusminor

marty

billhoward
Also which rinks have and which viewer feeds get overhead goal cam views.

This just reminded me. RPI used to have 2 over each goal. One official cam and one RPI TV cam.

Maybe Ursaminor can comment, but did the RPI TV free live feed die? Are they allowed to archive the games?

The free feed died because the league demanded it. I heard that they did archive games, but the website is under maintenance, so I can't check. They are not on their You-Tube channel.

ESPN Minus

Robert Iger announced the news in his first earnings call since returning as chief executive. In the wide-ranging call, Mr. Iger outlined plans for significant changes to the company’s slate of movies and television shows, the reinstatement of Disney’s dividend and possible changes in pricing for the company’s streaming video services, among other things.

“It’s time for another transformation,” Mr. Iger said. He said the changes would reshape the company around creativity, reduce expenses and lead to profits in its streaming business.

Minus redux.

“It’s time for another transformation,”

marty

marty

ursusminor

marty

billhoward
Also which rinks have and which viewer feeds get overhead goal cam views.

This just reminded me. RPI used to have 2 over each goal. One official cam and one RPI TV cam.

Maybe Ursaminor can comment, but did the RPI TV free live feed die? Are they allowed to archive the games?

The free feed died because the league demanded it. I heard that they did archive games, but the website is under maintenance, so I can't check. They are not on their You-Tube channel.

ESPN Minus

Robert Iger announced the news in his first earnings call since returning as chief executive. In the wide-ranging call, Mr. Iger outlined plans for significant changes to the company’s slate of movies and television shows, the reinstatement of Disney’s dividend and possible changes in pricing for the company’s streaming video services, among other things.

“It’s time for another transformation,” Mr. Iger said. He said the changes would reshape the company around creativity, reduce expenses and lead to profits in its streaming business.

Minus redux.

I guess this is the first bitch session I’ve seen about the ESPN service. Personally, I’ve been trying to really savor what we have now. A huge majority of all ECAC games live and archived for on-demand watching for a small monthly charge? And we can cancel during the off-season? I rarely have technical glitches, unlike the days of RedCast (or whatever that was). Or Ivy Network.

This is the glory days — what we always dreamed of when we were huddled around a stammering RealPlayer audio feed. Or when it was Age vs the AD as he ran cables from the press box to a server. Just to get things online for us far-flung folks.

But hey, sure “more like ESPN minus, har har.” You’re nuts if you don’t appreciate this era.

With the big streaming services starting to wobble, and worries about profitability getting louder, I’m starting to get nervous about what happens to this little passion of ours if dominoes start to fall and we lose it. Yeah, the price has nearly doubled recently, but it’s been worth every cent I’ve spent on it so far. Kudos to the league heads for getting a broadcast contract this good in place. Bonus: I get some NHL and other things.

I agree wholeheartedly. My family watches a month's worth of Cornell athletic events for less than the price of one hockey ticket.

dag14
I agree wholeheartedly. My family watches a month's worth of Cornell athletic events for less than the price of one hockey ticket.

Not to mention lacrosse & basketball. Whoops, I just did.

And with the Dizzy Bundle, I can also watch Godfather of Harlem.

dag14
I agree wholeheartedly. My family watches a month's worth of Cornell athletic events for less than the price of one hockey ticket.

I do appreciate what we have. Old codgers at RPI who lost the free service might disagree.

My posts are simply pointing out that the price will be higher next year. We are getting more than a fair price.

As soon as it was offerred I paid for ESPN+ and was very happy. Last year my daughter-in-law decided she needed a hotspot on her Verizon account. I pay for 5 lines of unlimited cell service plus a cell based landline and her hotspot at the reasonable total cost of $221.

The hotspot included bundled Hulu, ESPN+ and Disney+ access. I don't know why they made the service so cheap. I don't know why they let me use ESPN+ in a city 150 miles north of my son and his family.

The minus is that this was all too good to be true and it won't be the same sometime soon.

Cornell hockey season tickets for two are the same as a Devils game with parking and refreshments. Beer at Prudential Center is $16 which is a lot, whereas Lynah is n/a. Or BYO.

Trotsky
Fastest 4 in NHL is apparently 80 seconds during this fascinating game, during which Boston also had 3 goals in a different 51 second interval.

Carlo Ugolini had 4 goals in 51 seconds in a freshmen game my senior year. Two of those were unassisted, where he won the faceoff to himself and skated up ice and scored. If I recall correctly, the opponent was the Dixie Beehives Jr. B team from Ontario, who was a regular opponent at freshmen games back then.

Edit Note: I posted this after reading part way through this thread and seeing a discussion of quick goals in succession. I now see that Bill already mentioned Carlo's feat. I was an eye witness to these 4 goals, which were in 51 seconds.

nm.

Yale is charging $25 a head (!!!) for their Senior Night game at the end of this month when Cornell visits, which was a bit of a shock for me. Actually, many tickets for that game have already been sold

Iceberg
Yale is charging $25 a head (!!!) for their Senior Night game at the end of this month when Cornell visits, which was a bit of a shock for me. Actually, many tickets for that game have already been sold

Yale traditionally draws well and games with Cornell very often sell out. Harvard charged $35 for the cheapest seat for the Cornell game so suddenly $25 sounds cheap.

marty

dag14
I agree wholeheartedly. My family watches a month's worth of Cornell athletic events for less than the price of one hockey ticket.

I do appreciate what we have. Old codgers at RPI who lost the free service might disagree.

Sure do.