Cornell-BU

Bad stuff is what makes good stuff matter. This was a very enjoyable season with many good memories. For all but one team it was going to end on a down note.

Next year let's be that one team.

See you all in 7 months.

cufan
A couple of years ago the basketball team made it a point to play some really top flight programs for the experience. Yes they lost to Syracuse and Kansas but they did make it to the Sweet 16.
Perhaps there is still time to set up some quality non ECAC opponents so the schedule will not be called "cupcake". Fun year - we'll lick 'em next year!

+1

This year's NCAA field shows that there's a fine line between teams that can advance & win the NC vs teams that don't. I think the team's goals for next year will have to be more than making the NCAA's. A strong OC schedule, even with more losses may pay off in March. Look at BU.

Jim Hyla

George64
Tough to lose, but a great season nonetheless. Far better than anyone envisioned. LGR

Well 61% said preseason that the team had to get to the Regionals to meet their expectations

to meet their expectations or to consider it a good season? i thought the poll was the latter. this year went beyond my expectations, despite the postseason bleh. with such a young class i wasn't expecting anything like the regular season we had. i still consider it a good season.

if we lose in the semis of the ecac and the first round again next year i won't feel as good about the year, regardless of how the regular season goes.

Even game for the most part. However, I think our d pairs looked awful when trying to move the Puck. Either tentative or trying to be too fancy. Though the case in point was the unforgivable turnover that led to the thing goal, that was hardly the first time all night.

Swampy

cufan
A couple of years ago the basketball team made it a point to play some really top flight programs for the experience. Yes they lost to Syracuse and Kansas but they did make it to the Sweet 16.
Perhaps there is still time to set up some quality non ECAC opponents so the schedule will not be called "cupcake". Fun year - we'll lick 'em next year!

+1

This year's NCAA field shows that there's a fine line between teams that can advance & win the NC vs teams that don't. I think the team's goals for next year will have to be more than making the NCAA's. A strong OC schedule, even with more losses may pay off in March. Look at BU.

Can we do much about next year's OOC at this point? I figure it would be fleshed out. Thought looking at our schedule thread it looks like everything is still open. Is it normal for OOC slots to still be open at this point?

Next year was the year before this year became the year.. but its hockey where 1 goal +/-is the norm for good and bad teams.

Postgame

[www.youtube.com]

Game Highlights

[www.ncaa.com]

Full game replay on ESPN

[www.espn.com]

BU played a chippy first period. There were a lot of deliberate after the whistle bumps into Cornell players. Also, check out the scrum with 3:50 left in the first period. Tkachuk and Greenway were both hitting Vanderlaan in the head with the end of their sticks as the fought for the puck. Vanderlaan complained after the whistle was blown but no penalty was called. At least one of those guys should have gotten 2 minutes for contact to the head.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I couldn't stomach watching the whole game on replay. Cornell should have won. I believe they were the better team, definitely the more skilled team. BU likes to play rough to compensate for their lack of skill.

The second BU goal was just a bad defensive breakdown.

Galajda played a great game.

Best of luck to the graduating seniors.

nmcorm83
Outshot the "most talented" team? Moral victories in the post season are meaningless. I agree with the poster about a go to guy. This team did not have that.

I didn't say anything about a moral victory. I said we did what he had to do to win and things just didn't work out that way.

Cornell probably isn't ever going to recruit the blue-chip blue forwards. Not in a defense-first team without scholarships.

On the topic of scoring, for those who say we aren't losing much to graduation, I would consider that three players on this year's team scored more than 7 goals: Yates (13), Angello (13), and Rauter (11). Yates and Rauter are now gone and we had better pray Angello doesn't leave.

Schafer has never made the NCAA tournament three years in a row. Remember the great freshman class in 2011-12? It had four draft picks on it and the team's leading scorer (as a freshman). Made the NCAAs that year...never made it again. Nothing is guaranteed. That's why, even when the future looks bright or you're playing with house money, your tournament run is no less important than any other year's, and few losses are going to be more disappointing than yesterday's.

Two very evenly matched teams playing a really tight, hard-hitting game. Other than a win, I think you couldn't ask for more.

One thing that surprised me was how much bigger BU looked than us. I'm not used to seeing us be the smaller team. But we were clearly the faster team.

And we're young. We'll be back next year.

On to lax season!

BearLover
Yates and Rauter are now gone and we had better pray Angello doesn't leave.

This vein of speculation is getting unduly thick. Keeping it civil but being as blunt as possible, Angello leaving would be "misguided" on a level beyond even Shane Hynes. It would be "shocking" beyond belief.

Nevermind that he has only one more year left in his degree. We have a chance to finish a good amount of unfinished business next year, and I can only imagine that his central role in such a campaign will raise the value of his stock significantly.

Scersk '97

BearLover
Yates and Rauter are now gone and we had better pray Angello doesn't leave.

This vein of speculation is getting unduly thick. Keeping it civil but being as blunt as possible, Angello leaving would be "misguided" on a level beyond even Shane Hynes. It would be "shocking" beyond belief.

Nevermind that he has only one more year left in his degree. We have a chance to finish a good amount of unfinished business next year, and I can only imagine that his central role in such a campaign will raise the value of his stock significantly.

I agree with what you said. As I understand it, Pittsburgh has to make a decision this year, either sign him or give him up to free agency. If that’s true, I suspect he’ll be back.

I don’t think he’s had such a great year/career that he’d be offered a wonderful contract. Therefore coming back to finish his degree and improve would make the most sense.

Maybe I’ve got it wrong, anybody know?

Scersk '97

BearLover
Yates and Rauter are now gone and we had better pray Angello doesn't leave.

This vein of speculation is getting unduly thick. Keeping it civil but being as blunt as possible, Angello leaving would be "misguided" on a level beyond even Shane Hynes. It would be "shocking" beyond belief.

Nevermind that he has only one more year left in his degree. We have a chance to finish a good amount of unfinished business next year, and I can only imagine that his central role in such a campaign will raise the value of his stock significantly.

I agree with you that he is a long-shot to make the NHL and would want to return to a strong team and all his friends and the ability to earn a degree, but Pittsburgh is going to offer him a lot of money and none of us can speak to what his and his family's financial situation is. It definitely wouldn't be shocking beyond belief.

BearLover
It definitely wouldn't be shocking beyond belief.

I didn't mean "shocking"—I meant something else. More in the vein of "foolish."

Having done a quick search on the speculation, I understand the chatter. But if he has a truly dominant season next year, the rewards, a la Vesey, could be enormous.

PS Whether or not Angello leaves, I actually think our offensive prospects for next season rest squarely on the shoulders of Starrett, my current "most likely to piss me off." If he develops into what he's supposed to be, we'll make a very deep run.

BearLover
Schafer has never made the NCAA tournament three years in a row. Remember the great freshman class in 2011-12? It had four draft picks on it and the team's leading scorer (as a freshman). Made the NCAAs that year...never made it again. Nothing is guaranteed. That's why, even when the future looks bright or you're playing with house money, your tournament run is no less important than any other year's, and few losses are going to be more disappointing than yesterday's.

Greg again.

1. The last time we made the NC$$s 3 years in a row, the coach was Ned Harkness. This is hardly some Schafer issue.

2. You are of course absolutely correct that nothing is guaranteed and every chance is precious. Every chance is also a crapshoot. c.f. St. Cloud. The best way to win the NC$$ is just to get back there regularly. You gotta be in it to win it.

3. From RUMINT, the freshmen of 2012 (Class of 2015) is the subtext of Mike's postgame comments about bonding well but too exclusively. He was making a comparison with this large talented class and saying they hadn't done that. If he raised it in that context I assume he's been lecturing them about it all year and they will be hyper vigilent about mixing in the successor classes.

I think Angelo wants to complete his education. Check his Cornell bio and his Linkedin profile.

Recent NC$$ champions and their number of appearances in the tournament in the 7-year interval (t-3 .. t+3).

# Title Team
5 2015 Providence
5 2014 Union
5 2013 Yale
6 2012 BC
3 2011 UMD
6 2010 BC
4 2009 BU
6 2008 BC
4 2007 Michigan State
4 2006 Wisconsin

4.8 average

The last time Cornell had 5 appearances in a 7-year period was (1968 .. 1974).

Anne 85
Recent NC$$ champions and their number of appearances in the tournament in the 7-year interval (t-3 .. t+3).

# Title Team
5 2015 Providence
5 2014 Union
5 2013 Yale
6 2012 BC
3 2011 UMD
6 2010 BC
4 2009 BU
6 2008 BC
4 2007 Michigan State
4 2006 Wisconsin

4.8 average

The last time Cornell had 5 appearances in a 7-year period was (1968 .. 1974).

This kind of analysis throws Harvard and Clarkson's poor performances in the NCAAs into stark relief.

Clarkson "should have" won a championship in the 90s; Harvard should have won a championship in the early aughts.

BigRedHockeyFan
The second BU goal was just a bad defensive breakdown.

I'm still trying to figure out what happened on that breakout.

Betts gets the puck behind the goal and just stands there, even after Smith breaks out wide. (I'm screaming in my head, "Pass and get out of there. Let the D handle it!”) Meanwhile, McCrea is standing very awkwardly in front of Galajda. Sure, Tkachuk is standing nearly in the crease daring Betts to go right, but why not let him try to chase Betts? Shouldn't McCrea just get out of there and set up opposite Smith?

And then Angello comes out of nowhere to take the puck. Shouldn't that have been just about anyone else? I don't remember Angello taking it up ice very often. Where is our fifth player? Angello promptly coughs up the puck. He and Betts never really properly pick up men to cover. Blammo.

A stunning series of miscues from a team that, all season long, has looked far more fluid than usual getting out of their own zone.

Scersk '97
Betts gets the puck behind the goal and just stands there, even after Smith breaks out wide.

This. CU teams over the past five seasons did this reset/delayed breakout an uncomfortable number of times for me. This season's team did not. The confidence to quickly and skillfully push a transition was a welcome change and a hallmark of this squad in my eyes, and as soon as I saw Betts back all the way up made my nerves-alarm explode, and then it's in the net.

Probably the best post-mortem of this weekend that matches my views came in the conclusion in a piece about the parity of this tournament, written by Joe Meloni on CHN titled "No. 1 Doesn't Mean What it Used To."

BU knocking Cornell off on Saturday was a case of, effectively, two largely equivalent teams that hit their strides at different points in the season. The Terriers are on fire right now. Cornell entered the weekend off a frustrating 4-1 loss to Princeton in the ECAC semifinals last weekend in Lake Placid. The Big Red offense hadn't quite been at its best for some time before BU ended its season.

Cornell hit a rough stretch at the wrong time. The Terriers became the best version of themselves just as the lights started to shine. Air Force's goal goaltender had the night of his life to end St. Cloud's season. A broken stick saved Notre Dame's season on Friday afternoon.

It happens every year.

My opinion all through this season was that we were pleased with the progress, speed, and youth of this team, and many of us were just waiting for the inevitable cold streak or injury bug to derail them. In the past, that usually hit in the Dec tournament through early January. But we kept winning, even with some key injuries. By the time they dropped that RPI game, a top seed was already well in reach. Frankly, I thought the offense (SPECIFICALLY THE PP) went pretty cold in February. The first QF game kept this flickering hope that they had turned the corner, but when you only score 4 goals in the final three games, admittedly to the best and fiercest competition of the year, you can't expect to advance too far. If we keep making it this far, you just have to hope the bounces will fall on our side some of the time.

RichH
Probably the best post-mortem of this weekend that matches my views came in the conclusion in a piece about the parity of this tournament, written by Joe Meloni on CHN titled "No. 1 Doesn't Mean What it Used To."

BU knocking Cornell off on Saturday was a case of, effectively, two largely equivalent teams that hit their strides at different points in the season. The Terriers are on fire right now. Cornell entered the weekend off a frustrating 4-1 loss to Princeton in the ECAC semifinals last weekend in Lake Placid. The Big Red offense hadn't quite been at its best for some time before BU ended its season.

Cornell hit a rough stretch at the wrong time. The Terriers became the best version of themselves just as the lights started to shine. Air Force's goal goaltender had the night of his life to end St. Cloud's season. A broken stick saved Notre Dame's season on Friday afternoon.

It happens every year.

Yep, that's good.

Question is, is it possible to influence when those good / bad stretches come, or is it completely up to these puck bunnies:

we lost the last 2 games of the season.. BU had a wild swinging goal deflect in that was shot 6 ft off line and a seeing eye shot thru 5-6 bodies and an EN. PU had a breakway where we had the puck, a bad bounce goal and EN and a nice goal on a long breakout pass.

no PP goals no odd man rushes, no giveaways in front of the net. no shorties..

things happen.

Anne 85

BearLover
Schafer has never made the NCAA tournament three years in a row. Remember the great freshman class in 2011-12? It had four draft picks on it and the team's leading scorer (as a freshman). Made the NCAAs that year...never made it again. Nothing is guaranteed. That's why, even when the future looks bright or you're playing with house money, your tournament run is no less important than any other year's, and few losses are going to be more disappointing than yesterday's.

Greg again.

1. The last time we made the NC$$s 3 years in a row, the coach was Ned Harkness. This is hardly some Schafer issue.

Didn't mean to suggest it was--just that in this era of Cornell Hockey, success doesn't necessarily carry over from one year to the next. You're not going to hear me complain about Mike for some time.

RichH
The first QF game kept this flickering hope that they had turned the corner, but when you only score 4 goals in the final three games, admittedly to the best and fiercest competition of the year, you can't expect to advance too far. If we keep making it this far, you just have to hope the bounces will fall on our side some of the time.

I agree the offense is clearly what needs to most improvement (just like every other year), but that's a deceptive sample size. In the three prior games, Cornell scored 16 goals, and they were top ten in the country in GPG in the regular season. If you look at how the last few games went, Cornell threw enough shots on goal where they'd typically score more than four goals (not so much in the second Q game, but they got a ton of shots through against Princeton and BU).

Hopefully The Plan is to keep gradually moving the equalizer levels in favor of speed and finesse and accentuating full participation of all 5 players on the offense. Having a solid netminder in Galajda for possibly 3 more seasons surely won't hurt that.

Nothing is guaranteed but we're in a good position next year: solid D and G returning, and a good foundation at F with perhaps more help coming in. Remember we absorbed 2 deserters this season so we have 2 slots to fill in addition to the seniors.

G (2 return) (1) backup needed.
D (7 return) (2) sought, I do not believe Bliss will be back.
F (11 return) (5) sought.

BearLover

Scersk '97

BearLover
Yates and Rauter are now gone and we had better pray Angello doesn't leave.

This vein of speculation is getting unduly thick. Keeping it civil but being as blunt as possible, Angello leaving would be "misguided" on a level beyond even Shane Hynes. It would be "shocking" beyond belief.

Nevermind that he has only one more year left in his degree. We have a chance to finish a good amount of unfinished business next year, and I can only imagine that his central role in such a campaign will raise the value of his stock significantly.

I agree with you that he is a long-shot to make the NHL and would want to return to a strong team and all his friends and the ability to earn a degree, but Pittsburgh is going to offer him a lot of money and none of us can speak to what his and his family's financial situation is. It definitely wouldn't be shocking beyond belief.

He’s a long-shot to make the NHL, but Pittsburgh’s going to offer him a lot of money?

How do you get that? That’s my point in reverse. Right now he isn’t a lock to make it, so why would they offer him a lot of money? I’m certainly not sure of that.

And his family is okay.

Anne 85
D (7 return) (2) sought, I do not believe Bliss will be back.

Ryan Bliss lists himself as Cornell '18 on Facebook. It's unfortunate he was not able to play last year or this year.

I wish him the best of luck.

Jim Hyla

BearLover

Scersk '97

BearLover
Yates and Rauter are now gone and we had better pray Angello doesn't leave.

This vein of speculation is getting unduly thick. Keeping it civil but being as blunt as possible, Angello leaving would be "misguided" on a level beyond even Shane Hynes. It would be "shocking" beyond belief.

Nevermind that he has only one more year left in his degree. We have a chance to finish a good amount of unfinished business next year, and I can only imagine that his central role in such a campaign will raise the value of his stock significantly.

I agree with you that he is a long-shot to make the NHL and would want to return to a strong team and all his friends and the ability to earn a degree, but Pittsburgh is going to offer him a lot of money and none of us can speak to what his and his family's financial situation is. It definitely wouldn't be shocking beyond belief.

He’s a long-shot to make the NHL, but Pittsburgh’s going to offer him a lot of money?

How do you get that? That’s my point in reverse. Right now he isn’t a lock to make it, so why would they offer him a lot of money? I’m certainly not sure of that.

And his family is okay.

As a big guy who can skate and shoot, he has potential. And if Pittsburgh doesn't sign him now they lose him forever. I don't know the NHL cap structure for first year signees who would probably go straight to the AHL. Can the Penguins just offer the max to all of their draft picks? Or does it all come out of the same pool of money? Anybody familiar with the rules?

BigRedHockeyFan

Anne 85
D (7 return) (2) sought, I do not believe Bliss will be back.

Ryan Bliss lists himself as Cornell '18 on Facebook. It's unfortunate he was not able to play last year or this year.

I wish him the best of luck.

My understanding is he didn't do senior night because he's going to give it another shot. He's our David Wright. I admire his courage and determination and of course I wish him the best.

IMO biggest room for improvement is Strength of Schedule.

KenP
IMO biggest room for improvement is Strength of Schedule.

I'd have said so too but our shit SOS got us to #1 in the country this year. Now, did it hurt our preparation for the playoffs? Maybe.

BearLover

Jim Hyla

BearLover

Scersk '97

BearLover
Yates and Rauter are now gone and we had better pray Angello doesn't leave.

This vein of speculation is getting unduly thick. Keeping it civil but being as blunt as possible, Angello leaving would be "misguided" on a level beyond even Shane Hynes. It would be "shocking" beyond belief.

Nevermind that he has only one more year left in his degree. We have a chance to finish a good amount of unfinished business next year, and I can only imagine that his central role in such a campaign will raise the value of his stock significantly.

I agree with you that he is a long-shot to make the NHL and would want to return to a strong team and all his friends and the ability to earn a degree, but Pittsburgh is going to offer him a lot of money and none of us can speak to what his and his family's financial situation is. It definitely wouldn't be shocking beyond belief.

He’s a long-shot to make the NHL, but Pittsburgh’s going to offer him a lot of money?

How do you get that? That’s my point in reverse. Right now he isn’t a lock to make it, so why would they offer him a lot of money? I’m certainly not sure of that.

And his family is okay.

As a big guy who can skate and shoot, he has potential. And if Pittsburgh doesn't sign him now they lose him forever. I don't know the NHL cap structure for first year signees who would probably go straight to the AHL. Can the Penguins just offer the max to all of their draft picks? Or does it all come out of the same pool of money? Anybody familiar with the rules?

So you don’t know the rules, but “Pittsburgh’s going to offer him a lot of money”.

Jim Hyla

BearLover

Jim Hyla

BearLover

Scersk '97

BearLover
Yates and Rauter are now gone and we had better pray Angello doesn't leave.

This vein of speculation is getting unduly thick. Keeping it civil but being as blunt as possible, Angello leaving would be "misguided" on a level beyond even Shane Hynes. It would be "shocking" beyond belief.

Nevermind that he has only one more year left in his degree. We have a chance to finish a good amount of unfinished business next year, and I can only imagine that his central role in such a campaign will raise the value of his stock significantly.

I agree with you that he is a long-shot to make the NHL and would want to return to a strong team and all his friends and the ability to earn a degree, but Pittsburgh is going to offer him a lot of money and none of us can speak to what his and his family's financial situation is. It definitely wouldn't be shocking beyond belief.

He’s a long-shot to make the NHL, but Pittsburgh’s going to offer him a lot of money?

How do you get that? That’s my point in reverse. Right now he isn’t a lock to make it, so why would they offer him a lot of money? I’m certainly not sure of that.

And his family is okay.

As a big guy who can skate and shoot, he has potential. And if Pittsburgh doesn't sign him now they lose him forever. I don't know the NHL cap structure for first year signees who would probably go straight to the AHL. Can the Penguins just offer the max to all of their draft picks? Or does it all come out of the same pool of money? Anybody familiar with the rules?

So you don’t know the rules, but “Pittsburgh’s going to offer him a lot of money”.

Yes, they're going to offer him a lot of money--far more than he'd be earning in his first year out of college at a regular job. The only question is how much more.

Anne 85

KenP
IMO biggest room for improvement is Strength of Schedule.

I'd have said so too but our shit SOS got us to #1 in the country this year. Now, did it hurt our preparation for the playoffs? Maybe.

Cupcakes are tasty but won’t help you get to full potential.

KenP

Anne 85

KenP
IMO biggest room for improvement is Strength of Schedule.

I'd have said so too but our shit SOS got us to #1 in the country this year. Now, did it hurt our preparation for the playoffs? Maybe.

Cupcakes are tasty but won’t help you get to full potential.

But they're so hot right now.

Anne 85
My understanding is he didn't do senior night because he's going to give it another shot.

Thanks. I didn't know that.

I also believe Bliss didn't take classes last year to retain a year of eligibility.

the MAX AHL salary is roughly 70K for first year guys, so its all about the signing bonus .

he probably isnt going right to the NHL where the ELC is capped at 900K and the bonus is capped at 10% of the salary..

So unless he is getting a huge contract like Donato just how much do you think he will get thrown at him?

Anne 85

KenP
IMO biggest room for improvement is Strength of Schedule.

I'd have said so too but our shit SOS got us to #1 in the country this year. Now, did it hurt our preparation for the playoffs? Maybe.

it seems like the ECAC is now generally strong enough to prepare a team for the tournament - I'd rather play a mediocre schedule and take our chances in the tournament, instead of overscheduling and risking a lower seed or too many bad losses.

I think generally, RPI evens everything out. That is, if we have a tougher schedule, then we'll get in with a lower win%. If our schedule is weaker, we need a higher win%. This isn't perfect, and we've had some years where we barely missed getting in and maybe a win over a cupcake would have done more than a loss to a good team, but I don't think it's that significant a factor.

I'd rather see us get tested a little throughout the year, but that's easier said than done. Miami's usually a strong team, and they had a down year. And we lost to them once anyway, so it's not like weaker teams are automatic wins.

I'm starting to believe seeding doesn't matter. Just get in. 4s beat 1s -- it happens. Just get in.

Trotsky
I'm starting to believe seeding doesn't matter. Just get in. 4s beat 1s -- it happens. Just get in.

I agree. I'd rather see us as a 1-3 and not barely make the tournament as a 4.

get in, take your shot and try not to get seeded on some other team's home ice seems the best bet, b/c it's a total crapshoot in single game elimination.

marty

Trotsky
I'm starting to believe seeding doesn't matter. Just get in. 4s beat 1s -- it happens. Just get in.

I agree. I'd rather see us as a 1-3 and not barely make the tournament as a 4.

The ideal thing is to win the league championship in a tough league. This way the team enters the Regionals in peak form.

This year several 4-seeds had to win their leagues just to get in. Yet they did real well because they had this momentum.

Besides RPI evening out tough schedules with more losses versus weaker ones with fewer, the bigger issue is team preparation for the big dance.

We played BU early on, when it was a struggling team. So I don't even think we can count the MSG game as adequate preparation for the dance. The ECAC had at least 4 teams that could have qualified for the NC$$'s, but none are playing next weekend.

I'd really like to see us start a 4-game home-and-home two-year series with a B1G school, and play a NCHC team in MSG in years we don't play BU. Or vice-versa. Or go to a tournament where the big boys are playing. If we go 0-4, it just means we have to win the ECAC tournament. If we can't do that, maybe we're not ready for the NC$$'s yet.

None of this implies we should drop the occasional UAH or AS game. Schafer is a really decent guy, and he always schedules weaker teams in order to give them a chance to play up. Christ, it's hockey! If Sunbelt schools from Alabama and Arizona can't schedule games with storied programs from the north, how will the sport ever spread?

Swampy
If Sunbelt schools from Alabama and Arizona can't schedule games with storied programs from the north, how will the sport ever spread?

Should it?

Dafatone
I think generally, RPI evens everything out. That is, if we have a tougher schedule, then we'll get in with a lower win%. If our schedule is weaker, we need a higher win%. This isn't perfect, and we've had some years where we barely missed getting in and maybe a win over a cupcake would have done more than a loss to a good team, but I don't think it's that significant a factor.

I'd rather see us get tested a little throughout the year, but that's easier said than done. Miami's usually a strong team, and they had a down year. And we lost to them once anyway, so it's not like weaker teams are automatic wins.

I've been thinking about this a lot. I, for one, have started to come around to buying more into bearlover's argument that playing in a cupcake league is preferable based on watching Cornell's season develop. At the same time, I just had to correct someone who just made a "There goes the Big Ten...taking over as usual" comment because the Big Ten only sent one team to each of the last two NCAA tournaments (their auto-bid). This year, they came a Princeton OT goal away (or 0.0001 RPI point) from sending five of their seven teams. That 5th team, Minnesota, had a 19-17-2 record. Think about that...a team with seventeen losses nearly got an at-large bid, while a team like 23-12-6 Bowling Green was out of the conversation early. Maine was 18-16-4, but sat way down in 29th, barely ahead of 12-20-5 Miami. This suggests that league strength matters a lot.

The now seven-team Big Ten reminds me of the ACC of Lacrosse, back when there were 4 teams, or whatever it was. Throw in the league playoffs, and the teams that belong to that small league get to play each other many more times than teams in larger conferences. Minnesota got to play PWR relevant Penn State six times this season. Now, when a small conference like that is weak, like in 2016-2018, that doesn't exactly help any of the members. But look what happened when a team of Notre Dame's current caliber is added. Suddenly their SoS all got bumpedup to some extent, and they nearly pack 5 teams into a 16-team tournament. It seems like an amplification device for all the teams in the conference.

And then, that conference backs it up by advancing 3 of their 4 bids to the FF, which merges this thought back into the "battle-tested" debate.

I have to return to Dafatone's point "generally, RPI evens everything out," (and repeat it as one of my mantras) but it sure feels like a smaller conference gets a big boost for having an insulated schedule centered around a great team.

but ND also was bout 30 secs away from not getting past game 1 either. Air Force who is not very good beat SCst.

The margin is small not matter how much better you are.. we lost to RPI at home.

RichH

Dafatone
I think generally, RPI evens everything out. That is, if we have a tougher schedule, then we'll get in with a lower win%. If our schedule is weaker, we need a higher win%. This isn't perfect, and we've had some years where we barely missed getting in and maybe a win over a cupcake would have done more than a loss to a good team, but I don't think it's that significant a factor.

I'd rather see us get tested a little throughout the year, but that's easier said than done. Miami's usually a strong team, and they had a down year. And we lost to them once anyway, so it's not like weaker teams are automatic wins.

I've been thinking about this a lot. I, for one, have started to come around to buying more into bearlover's argument that playing in a cupcake league is preferable based on watching Cornell's season develop. At the same time, I just had to correct someone who just made a "There goes the Big Ten...taking over as usual" comment because the Big Ten only sent one team to each of the last two NCAA tournaments (their auto-bid). This year, they came a Princeton OT goal away (or 0.0001 RPI point) from sending five of their seven teams. That 5th team, Minnesota, had a 19-17-2 record. Think about that...a team with seventeen losses nearly got an at-large bid, while a team like 23-12-6 Bowling Green was out of the conversation early. Maine was 18-16-4, but sat way down in 29th, barely ahead of 12-20-5 Miami. This suggests that league strength matters a lot.

The now seven-team Big Ten reminds me of the ACC of Lacrosse, back when there were 4 teams, or whatever it was. Throw in the league playoffs, and the teams that belong to that small league get to play each other many more times than teams in larger conferences. Minnesota got to play PWR relevant Penn State six times this season. Now, when a small conference like that is weak, like in 2016-2018, that doesn't exactly help any of the members. But look what happened when a team of Notre Dame's current caliber is added. Suddenly their SoS all got bumpedup to some extent, and they nearly pack 5 teams into a 16-team tournament. It seems like an amplification device for all the teams in the conference.

And then, that conference backs it up by advancing 3 of their 4 bids to the FF, which merges this thought back into the "battle-tested" debate.

I have to return to Dafatone's point "generally, RPI evens everything out," (and repeat it as one of my mantras) but it sure feels like a smaller conference gets a big boost for having an insulated schedule centered around a great team.

I have no evidence to back this up, but I'd like to see our OOC opponents be pretty strong. Not that I want nothing but great teams, but 1-3 games against top competition is a good measuring stick and a good way to let our players know what they may be up against.

As to league strength, certainly we did well this year in a weak ECAC. Generally, I don't want the ECAC to suck, but I want us at the top of it, so shrug?

And how much “more prepared” would we have been? At the game, I thought it was pretty even and, like others have said, we just didn’t get the bounces. When I watched on TV the next day, I thought we outplayed them on balance (and held that offense to 3 third period shots). We were very ready to play the best teams out there.

jeff '84
And how much “more prepared” would we have been? At the game, I thought it was pretty even and, like others have said, we just didn’t get the bounces. When I watched on TV the next day, I thought we outplayed them on balance (and held that offense to 3 third period shots). We were very ready to play the best teams out there.

It's not like BU was the best team in the country, even as much as they'd improved recently. Just because we played them "pretty even" (and I agree we did) doesn't mean we couldn't have been even better prepared, and perhaps even outplayed them, had we faced stronger opposition during the regular season. Unfortunately, we'll never know.

RichH

Dafatone
I think generally, RPI evens everything out. That is, if we have a tougher schedule, then we'll get in with a lower win%. If our schedule is weaker, we need a higher win%. This isn't perfect, and we've had some years where we barely missed getting in and maybe a win over a cupcake would have done more than a loss to a good team, but I don't think it's that significant a factor.

I'd rather see us get tested a little throughout the year, but that's easier said than done. Miami's usually a strong team, and they had a down year. And we lost to them once anyway, so it's not like weaker teams are automatic wins.

I've been thinking about this a lot. I, for one, have started to come around to buying more into bearlover's argument that playing in a cupcake league is preferable based on watching Cornell's season develop.

There's a wide range between wanting to play a cupcake schedule and not wanting our biggest rivals to win the national championship before we do. I don't want Cornell to play a super easy schedule, though there is a benefit to it: the increased chance of winning the automatic bid from being in an easy league. The benefit of playing a hard schedule is of course gaining experience against top teams. I can't say with any high degree of certainty given the tiny sample, but I don't think our relatively weak opposition hurt us this year. We played well against BU in both games, while St. Cloud, who played in the toughest conference in the country, lost to an Atlantic Hockey team in the first round, etc. Beyond that, the PWR/RPI, in theory at least, accounts for whatever mathematical advantage/disadvantage would come from playing an easier/tougher schedule.

There are different types of tough schedules. I would rather Cornell play a tough schedule against highly skilled teams (and stay healthy through the season) than a tough schedule against thug teams (and get all banged up). I never liked when they played North Dakota or other teams in the old WCHA.

there is a limit to who we can play because there is a limit to which teams will come here. We can get the teams like Niagara to come without a return but only so many of the big boys will come here and we wont go there without a return trip.

I dont think playing a tougher schedule makes us any more ready, if may show that we are better but we were #3 with this schedule how much better would we have been playing a few better teams

upprdeck
there is a limit to who we can play because there is a limit to which teams will come here. We can get the teams like Niagara to come without a return but only so many of the big boys will come here and we wont go there without a return trip.

I dont think playing a tougher schedule makes us any more ready, if may show that we are better but we were #3 with this schedule how much better would we have been playing a few better teams

Maybe one or two games in the postseason.

SCst played a tougher SOS and that got them beat by air force..

upprdeck
SCst played a tougher SOS and that got them beat by air force..

I don't think anybody was suggesting that playing a tougher schedule was a guarantee of better post-season success.

I noticed that BU's Jordan Greenway signed with the Minnesota Wild.... Makes me wish that Doug Murray was still in the NHL to take some of the dirtiness out of his game... In fact, I'd love to watch Doug beat the hell out of that kid!!!

Jim Hyla

Scersk '97

BearLover
Yates and Rauter are now gone and we had better pray Angello doesn't leave.

This vein of speculation is getting unduly thick. Keeping it civil but being as blunt as possible, Angello leaving would be "misguided" on a level beyond even Shane Hynes. It would be "shocking" beyond belief.

Nevermind that he has only one more year left in his degree. We have a chance to finish a good amount of unfinished business next year, and I can only imagine that his central role in such a campaign will raise the value of his stock significantly.

I agree with what you said. As I understand it, Pittsburgh has to make a decision this year, either sign him or give him up to free agency. If that’s true, I suspect he’ll be back.

I don’t think he’s had such a great year/career that he’d be offered a wonderful contract. Therefore coming back to finish his degree and improve would make the most sense.

Maybe I’ve got it wrong, anybody know?

Pittsburgh would still have his exclusive rights through August 15, 2019. He would have the option to wait until Aug. 16, 2019 and sign with any team (as Jimmy Vesey did after his senior year).

Its says 2 yrs for Juniors and 4 yrs for college kids. So what is the real incentive for him to go now and not next year?

Beeeej
I don't think anybody was suggesting that playing a tougher schedule was a guarantee of better post-season success.

come on be fair. it's no different than the anecdata that we played a soft schedule and lost to BU in the first round.

ugarte

Beeeej
I don't think anybody was suggesting that playing a tougher schedule was a guarantee of better post-season success.

come on be fair. it's no different than the anecdata that we played a soft schedule and lost to BU in the first round.

Anecdata...great word.

Jeff Hopkins '82

ugarte

Beeeej
I don't think anybody was suggesting that playing a tougher schedule was a guarantee of better post-season success.

come on be fair. it's no different than the anecdata that we played a soft schedule and lost to BU in the first round.

Anecdata...great word.

+1

have none of you that advocate for playing the weaker schedule ever actually played a sport yourselves? Sure, a weaker schedule might well make it easier to get in to the tournament...but what it won't do is help prepare us to *win* against the best in the country. If you want to be able to beat the best out there come tourney time, you need to take the measure of yourself having some serious competition against the best you can find.

No one ever got better by only playing lesser opposition.

Also, the experience of playing the best competition is useful to the players in that game for as long as they are playing with us, not just this year.

When I walked out of the Worcester DCU, that was it for me. Good ride, better season than I expected. For once, I'm not re-playing the playoffs with what-ifs. I thought we played BU even. They got a couple breaks. We didn't. I don't feel as crushed as the St. Cloud State fans. I was ready for St. Paul because I don't know if I'll live long enough to see Cornell in another title game, and I think I might feel that way if I was 30. LGR ... in the fall. Time to see how far lax can go.

billhoward
When I walked out of the Worcester DCU, that was it for me. Good ride, better season than I expected. For once, I'm not re-playing the playoffs with what-ifs. I thought we played BU even. They got a couple breaks. We didn't. I don't feel as crushed as the St. Cloud State fans. I was ready for St. Paul because I don't know if I'll live long enough to see Cornell in another title game, and I think I might feel that way if I was 30. LGR ... in the fall. Time to see how far lax can go.

Other than never seeing us in the final in my lifetime, I agree with you.

Angello bolting is an illustration of why I don't think there is such a thing as "looking towards the future" or "playing with house money" in college hockey. When you make the tournament with a team that is good enough to win it, as we did this year, any loss is brutal, regardless of how many of your players are supposedly returning. With Yates (13 goals), Rauter (11), and now Angello (13) gone, we have no one returning who scored more than 7 goals this year. Which isn't to say we can't score or be good, but both of those things are far from guaranteed.

BearLover
Angello bolting is an illustration of why I don't think there is such a thing as "looking towards the future" or "playing with house money" in college hockey. When you make the tournament with a team that is good enough to win it, as we did this year, any loss is brutal, regardless of how many of your players are supposedly returning. With Yates (13 goals), Rauter (11), and now Angello (13) gone, we have no one returning who scored more than 7 goals this year. Which isn't to say we can't score or be good, but both of those things are far from guaranteed.

building from the back out does make it easier to withstand some loss of offense, and i really do think we have players that really can score more (Donaldson and Mallott in particular) but yeah it is going to be interesting to see if we can have another strong year where everyone scores a few but nobody scores a lot

BearLover
Angello bolting is an illustration of why I don't think there is such a thing as "looking towards the future" or "playing with house money" in college hockey. When you make the tournament with a team that is good enough to win it, as we did this year, any loss is brutal, regardless of how many of your players are supposedly returning. With Yates (13 goals), Rauter (11), and now Angello (13) gone, we have no one returning who scored more than 7 goals this year. Which isn't to say we can't score or be good, but both of those things are far from guaranteed.

I think this is also related to Greg's observation about persistence - teams generally win the title during an extended run of NCAA appearances. Teams that can absorb the loss of a key early departure or an entire class of immensely talented forwards (as Yale did) and maintain national relevance just get more chances (and probably better recruits, although Yale's pipeline seems to have dried up quite a bit).

Cornell hasn't been in that position for ~12 years and it's not clear the team is in that position now. Given the talent in the freshman class I'm still hopeful, but Angello leaving right now definitely hurts since there was reason to believe that next year was going to be Cornell's best shot since 2003.

abmarks
have none of you that advocate for playing the weaker schedule ever actually played a sport yourselves? Sure, a weaker schedule might well make it easier to get in to the tournament...but what it won't do is help prepare us to *win* against the best in the country. If you want to be able to beat the best out there come tourney time, you need to take the measure of yourself having some serious competition against the best you can find.

No one ever got better by only playing lesser opposition.

Also, the experience of playing the best competition is useful to the players in that game for as long as they are playing with us, not just this year.

Cornell can't control schedule strength to any meaningful degree. There are 7 NC games in the Ivy schedule, all of them come before February, and they are all typically scheduled multiple years in advance. Add in the money factor (Cornell requires reciprocal arrangements for hosting and many perennial contenders will not travel to Ithaca) and you have a very thin set of options and a lot of volatility on the higher quality end of the spectrum. By way of example, Cornell had a pair of 2 game sets against MSU shortly after Ryan Miller backstopped them to multiple deep tourney runs, and by the time they came to Ithaca they were basically a .500 team.

The silly academic discussions about relative league strength are, well, silly. Everybody's got an opinion and that opinion is always based on a highly specific set of unstated - and probably unconscious - assumptions. Going up against the best helps prepare you for the tournament, but if you're sneaking in as an at large 14 seed from the fourth or fifth slot in the conference you have at best a puncher's chance of winning it all anyway. When you say "strong schedule is better!" you're assuming - whether you admit it or not - that Cornell will still get in to the tournament from near the top of the conference pile.

To put it another way, if the choice is "make the tournament every year for 8 years running by dominating a weak league and hope for the best" or "make the tournament 1 out of 3 years and generally be an underdog from a strong league anyway" I think it's totally reasonable to take the former. It's probably better to get lots of lottery tickets than figure out how to marginally improve your odds of winning with a specific set of numbers. If the choice is "make the tournament every year for 8 years running against a cupcake schedule" and "make the tournament every year for 8 years running as a relative favorite from a strong conference" I don't see any reason why you'd choose the easy route.

Where things get interesting is when the choice is "make the tournament every year against a weak conference" or "make the tournament half the time from a strong conference, sometimes near the top and sometimes not" - in those cases I prefer the strong conference. As a player I'd want the test. As a fan I want better hockey. You'll note those reasons have nothing to do with title odds.

Angello scored 13, but he had about 2/3 of them in a short span of time. not that
his goals that will be as much as his presence on the ice.. yates scored like crazy and then not for almost 2 months.

Tom Lento
Cornell can't control schedule strength to any meaningful degree. There are 7 NC games in the Ivy schedule, all of them come before February, and they are all typically scheduled multiple years in advance. Add in the money factor (Cornell requires reciprocal arrangements for hosting and many perennial contenders will not travel to Ithaca) and you have a very thin set of options and a lot of volatility on the higher quality end of the spectrum. By way of example, Cornell had a pair of 2 game sets against MSU shortly after Ryan Miller backstopped them to multiple deep tourney runs, and by the time they came to Ithaca they were basically a .500 team.

The silly academic discussions about relative league strength are, well, silly. Everybody's got an opinion and that opinion is always based on a highly specific set of unstated - and probably unconscious - assumptions. Going up against the best helps prepare you for the tournament, but if you're sneaking in as an at large 14 seed from the fourth or fifth slot in the conference you have at best a puncher's chance of winning it all anyway. When you say "strong schedule is better!" you're assuming - whether you admit it or not - that Cornell will still get in to the tournament from near the top of the conference pile.

To put it another way, if the choice is "make the tournament every year for 8 years running by dominating a weak league and hope for the best" or "make the tournament 1 out of 3 years and generally be an underdog from a strong league anyway" I think it's totally reasonable to take the former. It's probably better to get lots of lottery tickets than figure out how to marginally improve your odds of winning with a specific set of numbers. If the choice is "make the tournament every year for 8 years running against a cupcake schedule" and "make the tournament every year for 8 years running as a relative favorite from a strong conference" I don't see any reason why you'd choose the easy route.

Where things get interesting is when the choice is "make the tournament every year against a weak conference" or "make the tournament half the time from a strong conference, sometimes near the top and sometimes not" - in those cases I prefer the strong conference. As a player I'd want the test. As a fan I want better hockey. You'll note those reasons have nothing to do with title odds.

This is well put. BTW, if the NMU games were scheduled a few years ago it looks like we may be fortunate there, as they made a big leap in 2018 and have no early departures.

Tom Lento
I think this is also related to Greg's observation about persistence - teams generally win the title during an extended run of NCAA appearances. Teams that can absorb the loss of a key early departure or an entire class of immensely talented forwards (as Yale did) and maintain national relevance just get more chances (and probably better recruits, although Yale's pipeline seems to have dried up quite a bit).

Cornell hasn't been in that position for ~12 years and it's not clear the team is in that position now. Given the talent in the freshman class I'm still hopeful, but Angello leaving right now definitely hurts since there was reason to believe that next year was going to be Cornell's best shot since 2003.

You make an extended run of NCAA appearances, doesn't that actuarially improve your odds on its own (Gretzky's 'you miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take')? There is also the tournament theory that even a blind squirrel finds some nuts. E.g. UMBC vs. Virginia. I would love to see that on a warmup tee-shirt instead of Prove You're Worth [sic], Believe In Yourself, or One Team One Destiny, the kind of stuff made by a moonlighting Hallmark card writer.

As regards believing in yourself, USCHO summed up Notre Dame's never-arrived-late-game-goal in the title round against Minnesota-Duluth.

Yes, the biggest and clearest reason making the tournament a bunch of times is better is because more pulls of the lever-->more chances of hitting jackpot

last at-large team in wins again

ugarte
last at-large team in wins again

I think the only one I have a problem with is Providence.

If you blow your league's quarters, thus backing into a rest weekend right before regionals, you shouldn't make the tournament.

PS I'm aware this rule would limit leagues to four participants. That would be a good thing.
PPS I'm also willing to limit the Big Ten and WCHA to two teams because of their non-standard playoff systems. Want four teams, potentially? Fall in line.

Scersk '97

ugarte
last at-large team in wins again

I think the only one I have a problem with is Providence.

If you blow your league's quarters, thus backing into a rest weekend right before regionals, you shouldn't make the tournament.

Isn't that what Yale did?

BearLover

Scersk '97

ugarte
last at-large team in wins again

I think the only one I have a problem with is Providence.

If you blow your league's quarters, thus backing into a rest weekend right before regionals, you shouldn't make the tournament.

Isn't that what Yale did?

No, they were in Atlantic City in 2013. Even played a consie.

Scersk '97

ugarte
last at-large team in wins again

I think the only one I have a problem with is Providence.

If you blow your league's quarters, thus backing into a rest weekend right before regionals, you shouldn't make the tournament.

PS I'm aware this rule would limit leagues to four participants. That would be a good thing.
PPS I'm also willing to limit the Big Ten and WCHA to two teams because of their non-standard playoff systems. Want four teams, potentially? Fall in line.

What's a "standard playoff system"? If you mean what we, and some others, currently do, then realize that "playoff systems" have changed over the years. Even the ECAC has changed.

If you mean having a tournament at a big neutral arena, then why, as far as the NCAA goes, is that better than playing at home rinks? I like it, but that doesn't make it better.

Jim Hyla

Scersk '97

ugarte
last at-large team in wins again

I think the only one I have a problem with is Providence.

If you blow your league's quarters, thus backing into a rest weekend right before regionals, you shouldn't make the tournament.

PS I'm aware this rule would limit leagues to four participants. That would be a good thing.
PPS I'm also willing to limit the Big Ten and WCHA to two teams because of their non-standard playoff systems. Want four teams, potentially? Fall in line.

What's a "standard playoff system"? If you mean what we, and some others, currently do, then realize that "playoff systems" have changed over the years. Even the ECAC has changed.

If you mean having a tournament at a big neutral arena, then why, as far as the NCAA goes, is that better than playing at home rinks? I like it, but that doesn't make it better.

I think Scott's idea is to disqualify any team not playing the weekend before the regionals start. It might have the unintended consequence of getting conferences to adopt Final Five and Super Six formats...

jtwcornell91
I think Scott's idea is to disqualify any team not playing the weekend before the regionals start. It might have the unintended consequence of getting conferences to adopt Final Five and Super Six formats...

Yup, and I have no problem with that. But let's cap it at four teams per league, shall we? Do we ever need to see five or more teams from any league in the tournament, e.g., the 2016 Hockey East second-chance tournament?

Really, I'd prefer a tournament of just the league champions, so everyone would likely have played 2 games the prior weekend. I suppose I could tolerate league champions and league regular-season "champions" who have at least made their leagues' final weekends. I'd arrange things so as to have a best 2 of 3 quarterfinal round at the higher seed's rink, with byes or play-in games as necessary. If we're dealing with the tournament and regular-season champions, I'd seed those teams who pull off "the double" first.

So, let's look at this year:

                        RS  PS  TOTES
St. Cloud      NCHC     1   2     3
Mankato        WCHA     1   3     4
Air Force      AHA      3   1     4
Denver         NCHC     2   1     3
Princeton      ECAC     7   1     8
Cornell        ECAC     1   3     4
BU             HE       4   1     5
Notre Dame     B10      1   1     2 
Michigan Tech  WCHA     5   1     6
BC             HE       1   3     4
Mercyhurst     AHA      1   3     4

Given the differing sizes of leagues, how to combine the results is arguable, but this is my world so I'm fine for now with the idiocy of TOTES. So, rearranged as seeds:

                    TOTES
1. Notre Dame         2
2. St. Cloud          3 [seed within bands by KRACH]
3. Denver             3
4. Cornell            4
5. Mankato            4
6. BC                 4
7. Mercyhurst         4
8. Air Force          4
9. BU                 5
10. Michigan Tech     6
11. Princeton         8

Or flipping within bands of TOTES for the play-ins:

1.  Notre Dame
2.  St. Cloud
3.  Denver
4.  Cornell
5.  Mankato
6.  BC
7.  Air Force
8.  Mercyhurst
9.  BU
10. Michigan Tech
11. Princeton

Princeton/BC, Michigan Tech/Air Force, and BU/Mercyhurst figure out the play-in, either mid-week at the higher seed or at their future quarterfinal location.

It's messy and far beyond ridiculous, but I don't like how the current system lets in teams that just shouldn't be there. Like, picking a few:

                  RS   PS 
2017  Providence  5    5
2016  BU          4    5
2016  Notre Dame  3    5
2015  BC          3    5
2015  Omaha       3    5
2015  Duluth      5    5
2015  Yale        3    5
2014  Vermont     7[!] 5
2013  Mankato     6    5
2013  NoDak       3    5
2013  UNH         5    5
2013  Denver      5    7 [first round!, at home to CC]
2012  MSU         5    5
2011  Duluth*     4    5
2011  RPI         5    5
2011  Omaha       3    7
2010  UAF         5    5

* Won it all! Doesn't refute my point; still shouldn't have been there.

The small sample space of OOC games is not a valid means for comparing conferences, so why not just rid ourselves of at-large teams and get rid of the static?