Bracketology Starts

given this bracket..

scs/mich will bring fans.. UND fans will be dumping tickets they already bought

OSu/PSU in allentown will bring a good crowd.

cornell will bring some. BU will bring some. do mankato or duluth travel that well?

ND will have fans. clarkson travels some, do they in the ncaa? prov will have fans, not sure on MT.

Jeff Hopkins '82

Swampy
I think Jeff has it right, with the ND group in Worcester. If you're going to reward a team with what's essentially a home game, reward #7 instead of #13.

To be fair, I'm not sure Bridgeport is any less a home game for Providence than Worcester. It's an hour's drive versus about 45 minutes. But I agree with your sentiment. That said #13 just won the head-to-head against #7, so who's to say they don't reward that.

More like 2 hrs to Bridgeport. Your other points are good ones. If I'm the committee, I'm trying to find a way to match Cornell & BU with teams they haven't already played this year. Not sure if that's doable, but that's why they pay the committee the big bucks.

upprdeck
really makes no sense to reward BU with a home game though as a 4 seed.

strange how PWR changed though since that same set of winners an hr ago left us a 3..

I came up with the exact same bracket as beej. And CU/BU will be in worcester, for attendance. Pretty sure this type of thing has happened before where a #4 band seed got a home game for attendance. Was it Providence IIRC?

And AFAIC, as long as it isn't Sioux F-ing Falls, I don't care where we play.

Well, TBH, I'd really prefer us to be here in Allentown, but I don't think that'll happen.

Beeeej

BearLover

Beeeej

BearLover

Swampy

BearLover

Jeff Hopkins '82
Notre Dame wins.

I think two brackets are set:

1. SCSU - 8. Michigan - 9. Northeastern - 16. Air Force (Sioux Falls)
2. Notre Dame - 7. Providence - 10. Clarkson - 15. Mich. Tech

the other two Brackets are a bit trickier. My guess is it's.

3. Cornell - 6 Mankato - 12. Duluth - 13. BU
4. OSU - 5. Denver - 11. Penn State - 14. Princeton (Allentown)

So it comes down to whether you put us and BU in Worcester and Notre Dame / Providence / Clarkson in Bridgeport or vice versa.

Couldn't you just as easily give Cornell Mich Tech, give Ohio State BU, and give Notre Dame Princeton?

I think he's matching the #1 seeds according to their finish in the pairwise: 1-16, 2-15, 3-14, & 4-13.

Cornell is the 3 matched with the 13 in this

Yes, but we can't play Princeton in the first round, so you make as few switches as possible to fix that.

Right, and my example above is the same number of switches as this example

Unless I'm missing something, you have to move one of those teams twice to get the result you're talking about, and there's no reason to move them the second time. In any event, this is still all speculation, and we'll know in 12 hours and 47 minutes.

The "fair" matchups are
2v15, 3v14, 4v13

In Jeff Hopkins' example, he swaps the 13 and the 14. In my example, I swap the 15 and the 14.

I'm just really tickled that the Gophers missed making the tournament by one ten-thousandth of a point. According to the Big Ten Network commentators, six games tonight had to all go the way they did for Minnesota to not make the tourney.

One Possibility

Sioux Falls
St. Cloud(1) vs. AF(16)
Michigan(8) vs. Northeastern(9)

Allentown
Notre Dame(2) vs. Mich Tech(15)
Minn St.(6) vs. Clarkson(10)

Worcester
Cornell(3) vs BU(13)
Providence(7) vs. Penn St.(11)

Bridgeport
Ohio St.(4) vs. Princeton(14)
Denver(5) vs. Minn Duluth(12)

BigRedHockeyFan
One Possibility

Sioux Falls
St. Cloud(1) Vs. AF(16)
Michigan(8) vs. Northeastern(9)

Allentown
Notre Dame(2) vs. Mich Tech(15)
Minn St.(6) vs. Clarkson(10)

Worcester
Cornell(3) vs BU(13)
Providence(7) vs. Penn St.(11)

Bridgeport
Ohio St.(4) vs. Princeton(14)
Denver(5) vs. Minn Duluth(12)

Doesn't Penn State have to stay in Allentown?

WTF why does everyone keep pairing Cornell vs BU? Pair them vs Michigan Tech, an equally valid opponent, and one that Cornell won't be sub-45% to beat...

BigRedHockeyFan
One Possibility

Sioux Falls
St. Cloud(1) vs. AF(16)
Michigan(8) vs. Northeastern(9)

Allentown
Notre Dame(2) vs. Mich Tech(15)
Minn St.(6) vs. Clarkson(10)

Worcester
Cornell(3) vs BU(13)
Providence(7) vs. Penn St.(11)

Bridgeport
Ohio St.(4) vs. Princeton(14)
Denver(5) vs. Minn Duluth(12)

Denver can't play Duluth. Penn State has to play in Allentown (they're the host). And the attendance in Bridgeport would suck with that bracket.

BigRedHockeyFan
One Possibility

Sioux Falls
St. Cloud(1) Vs. AF(16)
Michigan(8) vs. Northeastern(9)

Allentown
Notre Dame(2) vs. Mich Tech(15)
Minn St.(6) vs. Clarkson(10)

Worcester
Cornell(3) vs BU(13)
Providence(7) vs. Penn St.(11)

Bridgeport
Ohio St.(4) vs. Princeton(14)
Denver(5) vs. Minn Duluth(12)

Why would you put the #6 in the same bracket as the #2 and the #7 with the #3?

BearLover
WTF why does everyone keep pairing Cornell vs BU? Pair them vs Michigan Tech, an equally valid opponent, and one that Cornell won't be sub-45% to beat...

Because, I'd rather play Tech, and if I keep saying they'll match us against BU, maybe we'll get Tech instead

Beeeej


Doesn't Penn State have to stay in Allentown?

That causes other problems but you are probably right.

BearLover
WTF why does everyone keep pairing Cornell vs BU? Pair them vs Michigan Tech, an equally valid opponent, and one that Cornell won't be sub-45% to beat...

Because typically you assign teams to the regionals in order from highest seed to lowest, so BU will get assigned before MTU.

BigRedHockeyFan

Beeeej


Doesn't Penn State have to stay in Allentown?

That causes other problems but you are probably right.

He is right.

most posts i see think cornell plays BU in Mass.. still dont see them doing that with bu being such a low seed and cornell so high

Adam's "final" projection:

[www.collegehockeynews.com]

Sioux Falls
1. St. Cloud State vs. 16. Air Force
8. Michigan vs. 9. Northeastern

Allentown
3. Cornell vs. 15. Michigan Tech
5. Denver vs. 11. Penn State

Worcester
4. Ohio State vs. 13. Boston University
6. Minnesota State vs. 12. Minnesota-Duluth

Bridgeport
2. Notre Dame vs. 14. Princeton
7. Providence vs. 10. Clarkson

I think Cornell vs. BU is inevitable for historical reasons.

For the rest, I admit I am making guesses.

upprdeck
most posts i see think cornell plays BU in Mass.. still don't see them doing that with bu being such a low seed and cornell so high

I personally think it's CU-BU in Bridgeport.

Beeeej

BearLover
WTF why does everyone keep pairing Cornell vs BU? Pair them vs Michigan Tech, an equally valid opponent, and one that Cornell won't be sub-45% to beat...

Because typically you assign teams to the regionals in order from highest seed to lowest, so BU will get assigned before MTU.

There's no rule you have to assign them that way. There are 16 teams here, it's not rocket science. We/the selection committee are smart enough to figure it out without such heuristics.

upprdeck
most posts i see think cornell plays BU in Mass.. still dont see them doing that with bu being such a low seed and cornell so high

It's the numbers. #3 vs #13.

But maybe we could make a "donation," or perhaps buy some real estate at 3 times its market value, to persuade the committee to send BU to SF.

BearLover

Beeeej

BearLover
WTF why does everyone keep pairing Cornell vs BU? Pair them vs Michigan Tech, an equally valid opponent, and one that Cornell won't be sub-45% to beat...

Because typically you assign teams to the regionals in order from highest seed to lowest, so BU will get assigned before MTU.

There's no rule you have to assign them that way. There are 16 teams here, it's not rocket science. We/the selection committee are smart enough to figure it out without such heuristics.

I didn't say there's a rule. I said typically. You're aiming for a particular result, the committee has a process. You asked, and I answered.

12 hours, 28 minutes.

the rules i read said after the first 8 seeds and home placed teams anything within band goes as needed

Beeeej
Adam's "final" projection:

[www.collegehockeynews.com]

Sioux Falls
1. St. Cloud State vs. 16. Air Force
8. Michigan vs. 9. Northeastern

Allentown
3. Cornell vs. 15. Michigan Tech
5. Denver vs. 11. Penn State

Worcester
4. Ohio State vs. 13. Boston University
6. Minnesota State vs. 12. Minnesota-Duluth

Bridgeport
2. Notre Dame vs. 14. Princeton
7. Providence vs. 10. Clarkson

From his mouth to God's ears! I would take that in a heartbeat. That saves me vacation time, fuel costs, and I get to sleep in my own bed.

So it'll never happen.

Beeeej

BearLover

Beeeej

BearLover
WTF why does everyone keep pairing Cornell vs BU? Pair them vs Michigan Tech, an equally valid opponent, and one that Cornell won't be sub-45% to beat...

Because typically you assign teams to the regionals in order from highest seed to lowest, so BU will get assigned before MTU.

There's no rule you have to assign them that way. There are 16 teams here, it's not rocket science. We/the selection committee are smart enough to figure it out without such heuristics.

I didn't say there's a rule. I said typically. You're aiming for a particular result, the committee has a process. You asked, and I answered.

"Typically"=/=the committe's process. But who says that's even the committee's process? Or that the committee has a process?

But yes, no use arguing about it.

Here's Jayson Moy from USCHO's bracket

Midwest Regional (Allentown):
14 Princeton vs. 2 Notre Dame
11 Penn State vs. 6 Minnesota State

East Regional (Bridgeport):
15 Michigan Tech vs. 3 Cornell
12 Minnesota Duluth vs. 7 Providence

West Regional (Sioux Falls):
16 Air Force vs. 1 St. Cloud State
9 Northeastern vs. 8 Michigan

Northeast Regional (Worcester):
13 Boston University vs. 4 Ohio State
10 Clarkson vs. 5 Denver

[www.uscho.com]

if we get allentown and PSU tickets might be scarce they are already gone on ticketmaster, some on stubhub and who knows how many CU gets

I think Adam knows this business better than me.

BTW, who the heck chose Allentown?

Jeff Hopkins '82

Beeeej
Adam's "final" projection:

[www.collegehockeynews.com]

Sioux Falls
1. St. Cloud State vs. 16. Air Force
8. Michigan vs. 9. Northeastern

Allentown
3. Cornell vs. 15. Michigan Tech
5. Denver vs. 11. Penn State

Worcester
4. Ohio State vs. 13. Boston University
6. Minnesota State vs. 12. Minnesota-Duluth

Bridgeport
2. Notre Dame vs. 14. Princeton
7. Providence vs. 10. Clarkson

From his mouth to God's ears! I would take that in a heartbeat. That saves me vacation time, fuel costs, and I get to sleep in my own bed.

So it'll never happen.

From a "fairness" standpoint, Adam's bracket makes sense.

Cornell benefits from playing a seed one lower than the "right" one in the first round, but should they advance, they play a seed one higher than the right one in the second round. (Assuming the higher seed wins.)

In the other affected regional, OSU has to play a team seeded one higher than the right seed in the first round, but should they advance they then get to play a team one lower than the right seed in the regional championship. (Again, assuming the higher seed wins.)

I like how Cornell has known for weeks we were getting in and no mention or email about the process or when tickets might go on sale has happened..

I got emails for syracuse days in advance for tickets that wouldnt even exist unless they won a game in bball.

andyw2100

Jeff Hopkins '82

Beeeej
Adam's "final" projection:

[www.collegehockeynews.com]

Sioux Falls
1. St. Cloud State vs. 16. Air Force
8. Michigan vs. 9. Northeastern

Allentown
3. Cornell vs. 15. Michigan Tech
5. Denver vs. 11. Penn State

Worcester
4. Ohio State vs. 13. Boston University
6. Minnesota State vs. 12. Minnesota-Duluth

Bridgeport
2. Notre Dame vs. 14. Princeton
7. Providence vs. 10. Clarkson

From his mouth to God's ears! I would take that in a heartbeat. That saves me vacation time, fuel costs, and I get to sleep in my own bed.

So it'll never happen.

From a "fairness" standpoint, Adam's bracket makes sense.

Cornell benefits from playing a seed one lower than the "right" one in the first round, but should they advance, they play a seed one higher than the right one in the second round. (Assuming the higher seed wins.)

In the other affected regional, OSU has to play a team seeded one higher than the right seed in the first round, but should they advance they then get to play a team one lower than the right seed in the regional championship. (Again, assuming the higher seed wins.)

Fairness, shmairness. I like Jayson's brackets better.

upprdeck
if we get allentown and PSU tickets might be scarce they are already gone on ticketmaster, some on stubhub and who knows how many CU gets

In that case, I want Bridgeport.

Who would have thought, at the beginning of the season, that we'd be staying up tonight discussing which regional Cornell was going to be sent to --AS A 1-SEED-- and that while there are still three possible regional sites being discussed, they are all no more than a few hours --DRIVE-- from Ithaca, the NYC metro area, etc.? How cool is --THAT--?

andyw2100
Who would have thought, at the beginning of the season, that we'd be staying up tonight discussing which regional Cornell was going to be sent to --AS A 1-SEED-- and that while there are still three possible regional sites being discussed, they are all no more than a few hours --DRIVE-- from Ithaca, the NYC metro area, etc.? How cool is --THAT--?

Pretty amazing. Our predictions from before the season, for some perspective...

penn state took orders from their fans last weekend. or course they knew where they would be playing.

since we started talking all the ticketson stubhub have gone away.. PSU fans likely bought them all up

Adam also says he would bet the committee follows a different path than he is. So...

“Of course, I've been wrong before going this route in my assumptions. In fact, if I had to bet, I'd say the Committee does flip this around and get the Minnesota schools here [in Sioux Falls] and Northeastern somewhere East. But I wouldn't not do that, personally.”

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this here, but it's the first time in 40 years that neither Minnesota or NoDak {got into} the tournament.

If the NCAA wants to boost attendance place Cornell in Bridgeport. Cornell gets 15,000 fans to MSG thanksgiving weekend getting 10,000 big red fans to Bridgeport in late March is easy.

it will be interesting to see if they play with moving us since allentown is basically sold out. getting 250 tickets will suck for a cornell fan.

for the extra hr of travel bridgeport would be worth it if Moys bracket is correct

cornell/prov in the east
clarkson/bu in wooster

I think Notre Dame vs Princeton in Allentown is more likely. ND traveled to Manchester last year. I think they've earned a closer regional for their fans. This would be OK for Princeton's fan, too.

The negative is a potential second round B1G matchup. Also ND potentially gets a higher seeded opponent than they earned in both the first and second game.

Also the logic that Cornell should get Michigan Tech rather than BU is a numerical disadvantage to higher seeded Notre Dame. I'm hoping Jason and Adam are right on that flip.

If you are trying to maximize ticket sales AND Penn State has effectively sold out Allentown already, then Cornell in Bridgeport makes most sense.

What are the game times for Bridgeport, Allentown and Worcester ?

BUCUhockey
What are the game times for Bridgeport, Allentown and Worcester ?

Bridgeport is likely 4/7 Friday. And 6ish Saturday?
Other two are sat/sun.

Don’t think times are firm until the bracket is announced. Arena in Bridgeport is silent on times except 4 on Friday.

Question for the Bridgeport arena (if sent there). How tough is it to get there by train? Is there a stop within walking distance? Considering all options not involving traveling on 95 north from NJ.

toddlose
Question for the Bridgeport arena (if sent there). How tough is it to get there by train? Is there a stop within walking distance? Considering all options not involving traveling on 95 north from NJ.

It’s walkable from the train or the ferry from port Jeff.

Chris '03

toddlose
Question for the Bridgeport arena (if sent there). How tough is it to get there by train? Is there a stop within walking distance? Considering all options not involving traveling on 95 north from NJ.

It’s walkable from the train or the ferry from port Jeff.

Thanks!

KenP
If you are trying to maximize ticket sales AND Penn State has effectively sold out Allentown already, then Cornell in Bridgeport makes most sense.

ppl center seems to have a lot of tickets for sale

So does stubhub

Yes take the train to Bridgeport the arena is less than a three minute walk from the station.

its been interesting ..

last week there were tickets.. yesterday there were none.. now some have come back. i think stubhub will have some because of people trying unload.

ticketmaster has none..

stubhub had hundreds and zero last night but some today.

maybe PPL sells some as well?

maybe allentown is still in play? if you go by the PPL site there are lots?

Whew!

I forgot the the PPL Center sells their own tickets, not through TicketShafter. I'm hoping the Penn State fans forget that, too.

FWIW, I know a lot of my friends who are Phantoms season ticket holders are interested in seeing the games, but I suspect none of them have stepped up to buy yet.

OK, not Allentown.

Worcester versus BU.

Michigan vs Northeastern the other game.

Casually getting screwed every single year.

well no one was close with those brackets

so basically get match ups like the #4. I know they seed by band but really....

one good thing mich fans are split with bball going to sweet 16

upprdeck
one good thing mich fans are split with bball going to sweet 16

lol

BearLover
Casually getting screwed every single year.

Yeah, that decision is screwed up.

Has Cornell ever gotten a positive outcome from a subjective selection committee decision? They get the 3rd overall seed and get sent to a Massachusetts regional against a Boston team in the first round and possibly another Boston team in the second round? I would predict Cornell is about 15% to win this regional.

Plenty of seats available right now.

I just bought one at center ice. Section 124, row KK.

cornell is taking requests in the cornell allotment thru email.

Own child playing in a tournament Saturday. Wish we could make it to Mass.
Screw BU!

upprdeck
cornell is taking requests in the cornell allotment thru email.

Here's the CU page

Ticketmaster for Sat

Ticketmaster for 2 day pass

For Sat only you can pick your seats, I couldn't get that for 2 Day pass

such a strange bracket though.. they didnt even attempt to keep bracket integrity , nor protect the high seeds

upprdeck
such a strange bracket though.. they didnt even attempt to keep bracket integrity , nor protect the high seeds

As I explained in an earlier post, they protected Notre Dame and gave them the 2 vs 15 matchup they deserved. That means Cornell gets BU.

As far as the seeding of 5-8 vs 1-4 second game possibles there seemed to be shifting for attendance.

My only complaint is that Notre Dame belongs in Allentown sending TOSU to Bridgeport.

And screw BU!

worcester seats 12k. if harvard/bc/prov didnt bring anyone in 2016. i dont think finding tickets will be issue. i doubt BU/NE bring much more. Mich may well travel but how many?

upprdeck
worcester seats 12k. if harvard/bc/prov didnt bring anyone in 2016. i dont think finding tickets will be issue. i doubt BU/NE bring much more. Mich may well travel but how many?

BU will definitely travel a lot of seats. Northeastern traditionally not so much. Michigan will travel lighter than usual since their hoop team is still in the tourney (I think).

Agree that it won't bang out, but being a Saturday 1pm game it might well be nearly full.

looking at past 5-6 yrs of regionals if it gets over 6k its doing well..

a story i dont recall seeing on changing the format

change the format

and i found many pushing for it.

marty

upprdeck
such a strange bracket though.. they didnt even attempt to keep bracket integrity , nor protect the high seeds

As I explained in an earlier post, they protected Notre Dame and gave them the 2 vs 15 matchup they deserved. That means Cornell gets BU.

As far as the seeding of 5-8 vs 1-4 second game possibles there seemed to be shifting for attendance.

My only complaint is that Notre Dame belongs in Allentown sending TOSU to Bridgeport.

And screw BU!

I think they were trying to get the Princeton fans in Allentown

Jim Hyla

marty

upprdeck
such a strange bracket though.. they didnt even attempt to keep bracket integrity , nor protect the high seeds

As I explained in an earlier post, they protected Notre Dame and gave them the 2 vs 15 matchup they deserved. That means Cornell gets BU.

As far as the seeding of 5-8 vs 1-4 second game possibles there seemed to be shifting for attendance.

My only complaint is that Notre Dame belongs in Allentown sending TOSU to Bridgeport.

And screw BU!

I think they were trying to get the Princeton fans in Allentown

I'm sure you're right. But even though I am not a Notre Dame fan, why should they have to travel to New England two years in a row?

marty

Jim Hyla

marty

upprdeck
such a strange bracket though.. they didnt even attempt to keep bracket integrity , nor protect the high seeds

As I explained in an earlier post, they protected Notre Dame and gave them the 2 vs 15 matchup they deserved. That means Cornell gets BU.

As far as the seeding of 5-8 vs 1-4 second game possibles there seemed to be shifting for attendance.

My only complaint is that Notre Dame belongs in Allentown sending TOSU to Bridgeport.

And screw BU!

I think they were trying to get the Princeton fans in Allentown

I'm sure you're right. But even though I am not a Notre Dame fan, why should they have to travel to New England two years in a row?

Actually I was trying to be funny.There may be fewer Princeton fans, than Harvard fans. So I doubt they were trying to help them, but this is the NCAA, so..............

I'm sure you're right. But even though I am not a Notre Dame fan, why should they have to travel to New England two years in a row?[/quote]

Driving wise from South Bend, Bridgeport is not all that more of a drive for fans than Allentown. Maybe 11.5 hour drive for a local fan over a 9.5 hour drive. Bridgeport is more friendly for Irish fans in the New York and New England hubs to attend than Allentown. And as has been widely discussed here, Allentown will be very Penn State partisan with them hosting while Bridgeport, though it will include Providence, is a bit more neutral. There’s not another city that makes more sense.

If they put in a successful bid to host in a city closet to home, they would be close to home. Without that, you get sent where the committee thinks makes the most sense.

Jim Hyla

marty

Jim Hyla

marty

upprdeck
such a strange bracket though.. they didnt even attempt to keep bracket integrity , nor protect the high seeds

As I explained in an earlier post, they protected Notre Dame and gave them the 2 vs 15 matchup they deserved. That means Cornell gets BU.

As far as the seeding of 5-8 vs 1-4 second game possibles there seemed to be shifting for attendance.

My only complaint is that Notre Dame belongs in Allentown sending TOSU to Bridgeport.

And screw BU!

I think they were trying to get the Princeton fans in Allentown

I'm sure you're right. But even though I am not a Notre Dame fan, why should they have to travel to New England two years in a row?

Actually I was trying to be funny.There may be fewer Princeton fans, than Harvard fans. So I doubt they were trying to help them, but this is the NCAA, so..............

I missed the joke but also resisted the urge to run a FYP response - that shows you how far off I was.

Josh 03

marty
I'm sure you're right. But even though I am not a Notre Dame fan, why should they have to travel to New England two years in a row?

Driving wise from South Bend, Bridgeport is not all that more of a drive for fans than Allentown. Maybe 11.5 hour drive for a local fan over a 9.5 hour drive. Bridgeport is more friendly for Irish fans in the New York and New England hubs to attend than Allentown. And as has been widely discussed here, Allentown will be very Penn State partisan with them hosting while Bridgeport, though it will include Providence, is a bit more neutral. There’s not another city that makes more sense.

If they put in a successful bid to host in a city closet to home, they would be close to home. Without that, you get sent where the committee thinks makes the most sense.

Good points.

I remember reading somewhee that OSU at Allentown saved a plane ride because Columbus<-->Allentown <500 miles. whereas Notre Dame was >500 miles to all the eastern sites, so it doesn't really matter where they go.

For Cornell, while drawing BU sucks... on the plus side they put us with the weakest #2 seed, by the PWR.

I have no problem with this draw.

I dont BU is an issue, would rather not potentially play Bu and NE in Ma though..

didn't we beat BC in Worcester in 2003?

underskill
didn't we beat BC in Worcester in 2003?

We beat Quinnipiac and lost to UNH in Worcester in 2002.
We beat Minnesota State and BC in Providence in 2003.

I think we would find reason to complain if Cornell's regional were Brown, RIT and Alaska Anchorage. And the games were played at Lynah Rink. "That's not fair...the other regions get better preparation for the Frozen Four."

It's the NCAA tournament. There are no easy games. We lost in the semifinals of our conference tournament, we have a loss to RPI (#58 in the Pairwise) on our resume and we are a #1 seed, we did't get sent west, and our opponent is a team we have beaten this season.

I realize I am oversimplifying a lot, and BU is a LOT better than they were in November. I really expect Cornell to lose (just based on previous NCAA tournaments), but I will still cheer them on. I just never expect that we will get an "easy" regional (and really no team ever draws a cakewalk), especially when the committee has to work around the "no intraconference matchups in the first round" rule.

djk26
I think we would find reason to complain if Cornell's regional were Brown, RIT and Alaska Anchorage. And the games were played at Lynah Rink. "That's not fair...the other regions get better preparation for the Frozen Four."

It's the NCAA tournament. There are no easy games. We lost in the semifinals of our conference tournament, we have a loss to RPI (#58 in the Pairwise) on our resume and we are a #1 seed, we did't get sent west, and our opponent is a team we have beaten this season.

I realize I am oversimplifying a lot, and BU is a LOT better than they were in November. I really expect Cornell to lose (just based on previous NCAA tournaments), but I will still cheer them on. I just never expect that we will get an "easy" regional (and really no team ever draws a cakewalk), especially when the committee has to work around the "no intraconference matchups in the first round" rule.

i said this to beeeej offline but i am disturbed less by our getting screwed than by bu getting the benefit of a home game, even though obviously i feel the pain more acutely because cornell gets the short end of the stick. if you aren't the "official" host - an already dubious way of earning a home game - it is bullshit that as a 4 seed you still get to play in your own backyard. if you squeak into the tournament, pack your bags.

ugarte

djk26
I think we would find reason to complain if Cornell's regional were Brown, RIT and Alaska Anchorage. And the games were played at Lynah Rink. "That's not fair...the other regions get better preparation for the Frozen Four."

It's the NCAA tournament. There are no easy games. We lost in the semifinals of our conference tournament, we have a loss to RPI (#58 in the Pairwise) on our resume and we are a #1 seed, we did't get sent west, and our opponent is a team we have beaten this season.

I realize I am oversimplifying a lot, and BU is a LOT better than they were in November. I really expect Cornell to lose (just based on previous NCAA tournaments), but I will still cheer them on. I just never expect that we will get an "easy" regional (and really no team ever draws a cakewalk), especially when the committee has to work around the "no intraconference matchups in the first round" rule.

i said this to beeeej offline but i am disturbed less by our getting screwed than by bu getting the benefit of a home game, even though obviously i feel the pain more acutely because cornell gets the short end of the stick. if you aren't the "official" host - an already dubious way of earning a home game - it is bullshit that as a 4 seed you still get to play in your own backyard. if you squeak into the tournament, pack your bags.

+1

ugarte

djk26
I think we would find reason to complain if Cornell's regional were Brown, RIT and Alaska Anchorage. And the games were played at Lynah Rink. "That's not fair...the other regions get better preparation for the Frozen Four."

It's the NCAA tournament. There are no easy games. We lost in the semifinals of our conference tournament, we have a loss to RPI (#58 in the Pairwise) on our resume and we are a #1 seed, we did't get sent west, and our opponent is a team we have beaten this season.

I realize I am oversimplifying a lot, and BU is a LOT better than they were in November. I really expect Cornell to lose (just based on previous NCAA tournaments), but I will still cheer them on. I just never expect that we will get an "easy" regional (and really no team ever draws a cakewalk), especially when the committee has to work around the "no intraconference matchups in the first round" rule.

i said this to beeeej offline but i am disturbed less by our getting screwed than by bu getting the benefit of a home game, even though obviously i feel the pain more acutely because cornell gets the short end of the stick. if you aren't the "official" host - an already dubious way of earning a home game - it is bullshit that as a 4 seed you still get to play in your own backyard. if you squeak into the tournament, pack your bags.

Yeah but ticket sales.

Also, there were three eastern regionals this year. Allentown is decently far from Boston, but it's still more east than Midwest in my opinion.

ugarte

djk26
I think we would find reason to complain if Cornell's regional were Brown, RIT and Alaska Anchorage. And the games were played at Lynah Rink. "That's not fair...the other regions get better preparation for the Frozen Four."

It's the NCAA tournament. There are no easy games. We lost in the semifinals of our conference tournament, we have a loss to RPI (#58 in the Pairwise) on our resume and we are a #1 seed, we did't get sent west, and our opponent is a team we have beaten this season.

I realize I am oversimplifying a lot, and BU is a LOT better than they were in November. I really expect Cornell to lose (just based on previous NCAA tournaments), but I will still cheer them on. I just never expect that we will get an "easy" regional (and really no team ever draws a cakewalk), especially when the committee has to work around the "no intraconference matchups in the first round" rule.

i said this to beeeej offline but i am disturbed less by our getting screwed than by bu getting the benefit of a home game, even though obviously i feel the pain more acutely because cornell gets the short end of the stick. if you aren't the "official" host - an already dubious way of earning a home game - it is bullshit that as a 4 seed you still get to play in your own backyard. if you squeak into the tournament, pack your bags.

At this point, though, the only reasonable way to do that is to swap the entire Worcester regional with the entire Bridgeport regional, and even then I don't think you've accomplished much by moving BU an extra 100 miles. The only real alternative is swapping BU for Michigan Tech, and I don't really believe you value punishing BU for "squeaking in" (by winning their conference tournament, btw) more than you value the overall #2 seed's right to play the overall #15.

Dafatone
Yeah but ticket sales.

bah. this is an excuse but not a good reason since it is antithetical to "earning" your seed on the ice.

Beeeej

ugarte
i said this to beeeej offline but i am disturbed less by our getting screwed than by bu getting the benefit of a home game, even though obviously i feel the pain more acutely because cornell gets the short end of the stick. if you aren't the "official" host - an already dubious way of earning a home game - it is bullshit that as a 4 seed you still get to play in your own backyard. if you squeak into the tournament, pack your bags.

At this point, though, the only reasonable way to do that is to swap the entire Worcester regional with the entire Bridgeport regional, and even then I don't think you've accomplished much by moving BU an extra 100 miles. The only real alternative is swapping BU for Michigan Tech, and I don't really believe you value punishing BU for "squeaking in" (by winning their conference tournament, btw) more than you value the overall #2 seed's right to play the overall #15.

As you know, swapping the regionals was literally my proposal. DRIVE THOSE 100 MILES, TERRIER FANS! Obviously Notre Dame earned their #2 overall place and we shouldn't get to benefit at their expense.

ugarte

Dafatone
Yeah but ticket sales.

bah. this is an excuse but not a good reason since it is antithetical to "earning" your seed on the ice.

Beeeej

ugarte
i said this to beeeej offline but i am disturbed less by our getting screwed than by bu getting the benefit of a home game, even though obviously i feel the pain more acutely because cornell gets the short end of the stick. if you aren't the "official" host - an already dubious way of earning a home game - it is bullshit that as a 4 seed you still get to play in your own backyard. if you squeak into the tournament, pack your bags.

At this point, though, the only reasonable way to do that is to swap the entire Worcester regional with the entire Bridgeport regional, and even then I don't think you've accomplished much by moving BU an extra 100 miles. The only real alternative is swapping BU for Michigan Tech, and I don't really believe you value punishing BU for "squeaking in" (by winning their conference tournament, btw) more than you value the overall #2 seed's right to play the overall #15.

As you know, swapping the regionals was literally my proposal. DRIVE THOSE 100 MILES, TERRIER FANS! Obviously Notre Dame earned their #2 overall place and we shouldn't get to benefit at their expense.

Yeah, hence why I called it reasonable. I just don't think it does squat. IS IT SATURDAY YET?!?!

Campus sites or GTFO.

ugarte
it is bullshit that as a 4 seed you still get to play in your own backyard. if you squeak into the tournament, pack your bags.

The only way to aviod this problem is to have the tournament be as popular as the basketball tournament. Remember, one of the criteria the committee talked about in interviews was game-time atmosphere at the arena. Sellouts guarantee atmosphere. With half full rinks you'll need some local teams every time to keep it from being a mausoleum.

The other factor here is the geographic dispersion of host rinks. In the Northeast, there's a pretty regular rota that includes any two of Providence, Worcester, Manchester, Albany and Bridgeport (unless I forgot somewhere else). This means that every single year you're seeing Prov, Worc, or Manch, if not two of those locations. With the tremendous number of teams within an hour of those rinks, you're going to get teams placed locally every year. If this was out west, that problem goes away quiet often since the distances are so great.

No-one is complaining if BU and Northeastern were the higher seeds in their games.

Cornell got the best matchup we could (per the Pairwise) - since we couldn't play #14 Princeton, we get #13 BU. Since when is 3 v 13 a bad thing? And it's not like playing at BU where there might be only 500 Cornell fans at their rink. We'll have several thousand.

The best matchup we could get per the pairwise was Michigan Tech. There's nothing in the pairwise that says the 2nd-best team getting the 14th-best team is any more unjust than the 3rd-best team getting the 13th-best team.

BearLover
The best matchup we could get per the pairwise was Michigan Tech. There's nothing in the pairwise that says the 2nd-best team getting the 14th-best team is any more unjust than the 3rd-best team getting the 13th-best team.

Sure there is. It's called finishing in 2nd, which is slightly higher than 3rd, and gets slightly better treatment. The only way you can justify giving us MTU instead of BU is that you think the #3 deserves better treatment than the #2. You're also forgetting that MTU just won their tournament, something we (badly) failed to do ourselves. You think if we were playing MTU, they'd be easier to beat because they'd only have a couple hundred fans in the building?

How many different ways are you guys gonna find to say exactly the same thing?

In order to win a national championship, Cornell has to beat four teams who did what they needed to do in order to be in the tournament. We didn't get nearly as badly screwed this week as we did in 2003, during which regional we went ahead and beat the team with which we felt the NCAA had tried to screw us, and then we went ahead and beat the next team, too. If we have what it takes to win two games this weekend, it's not going to matter a good goddamn whether Jack Parker and Chris Drury themselves drive the caravan down from Agganis and park a hundred thousand rabid Terrier fans on the glass. Let's focus on getting Cornellians in the building and hoping Coach and his players have their shit together.

FWIW - I personally believe swapping the opponents of the 2-3 seeds (Notre Dame/Cornell) is "more just" than swapping 3-4 -- solely because the difference between BU/Princeton is much greater than the difference between Princeton/Tech. But that is solely an opinion, since their respective final Pairwise ranks are 15-18-21. I actually asked the Committee Chair this directly, and I basically got a lot of mumbo jumbo back that led me to believe he didn't really understand the nuance of my question. So I'm guessing they "protected" Notre Dame, and then just swapped OSU/Cornell because they had to. And didn't put much further thought into it.

I will also say this - because I had this discussion with certain Cornell people who were annoyed at having to play "at" BU .... The idea that BU is going to pack throngs of people into Worcester is somewhat silly these days. It won't happen. It doesn't happen. There should be plenty of Cornell fans there. If there aren't - shame on Cornell fans. This isn't 1972. OR even 1992. BU is not packing tons of people into there. The only concern I would have is that BU is hot, and they certainly have the inner talent. So, bad matchup from that standpoint. But the crowd and the "getting screwed" factor, I wouldn't worry about.

Comparing the 1st band teams and projecting chalk except for them advancing:

By straight PWR:

1 St. Cloud   27  6  4  2   39
2 Notre Dame  21  7  3  1   32
3 Cornell     15  8  2  1   26
4 Ohio State  18  5  1  2   26

By offset from 1st band team seed:

1 St. Cloud   26  5  3  1    35
2 Notre Dame  19  5  1 -1    24
3 Cornell     12  5 -1 -2    14
4 Ohio State  14  1 -3 -2    10

BearLover
Has Cornell ever gotten a positive outcome from a subjective selection committee decision? They get the 3rd overall seed and get sent to a Massachusetts regional against a Boston team in the first round and possibly another Boston team in the second round? I would predict Cornell is about 15% to win this regional.

Well, their then-AD, who was then-Committee Chair, Laing Kennedy - did somehow get Cornell in the tournament in 1991 when it probably had blown its chance. So there's that. Thus was born the Pairwise.

adamw
FWIW - I personally believe swapping the opponents of the 2-3 seeds (Notre Dame/Cornell) is "more just" than swapping 3-4 -- solely because the difference between BU/Princeton is much greater than the difference between Princeton/Tech. But that is solely an opinion, since their respective final Pairwise ranks are 15-18-21. I actually asked the Committee Chair this directly, and I basically got a lot of mumbo jumbo back that led me to believe he didn't really understand the nuance of my question. So I'm guessing they "protected" Notre Dame, and then just swapped OSU/Cornell because they had to. And didn't put much further thought into it.

I will also say this - because I had this discussion with certain Cornell people who were annoyed at having to play "at" BU .... The idea that BU is going to pack throngs of people into Worcester is somewhat silly these days. It won't happen. It doesn't happen. There should be plenty of Cornell fans there. If there aren't - shame on Cornell fans. This isn't 1972. OR even 1992. BU is not packing tons of people into there. The only concern I would have is that BU is hot, and they certainly have the inner talent. So, bad matchup from that standpoint. But the crowd and the "getting screwed" factor, I wouldn't worry about.

I'm not thrilled at playing BU in their home state, but as long as it's not a situation where they're gonna snap up every available ticket (NoDak in Sioux Falls, for instance), it's okay. I don't like that they're hot and talented, but it happens. Personally, I think this is more "fair" than giving us Michigan Tech. You give the #1 team the easiest matchup if possible. Then you give the #2 team the second easiest matchup if possible. Then you look at the #3 and adjust accordingly.

If I ruled the world, I'd ditch the host team concept entirely, and then I'd let teams play conference opponents in the first round. But I'm not jumping up and down to play Princeton right away.

It's the tournament. Everyone we face is gonna be great. Hopefully we'll be greater.

For what it’s worth don’t forget we still receive the structural advantage of being #1 seed: we are the home team with regard to bench location and line changes.

Dafatone
If I ruled the world, I'd ditch the host team concept entirely, and then I'd let teams play conference opponents in the first round.

Seconded, and if that means ditch the regionals and go to campuses for the first two rounds, so be it.

adamw

BearLover
Has Cornell ever gotten a positive outcome from a subjective selection committee decision? They get the 3rd overall seed and get sent to a Massachusetts regional against a Boston team in the first round and possibly another Boston team in the second round? I would predict Cornell is about 15% to win this regional.

Well, their then-AD, who was then-Committee Chair, Laing Kennedy - did somehow get Cornell in the tournament in 1991 when it probably had blown its chance. So there's that. Thus was born the Pairwise.

So I think the exception proves the point. You had to go back 27 years, not a strong case.

We can certainly come up with a lot more recent screwings than that.

Trotsky
Comparing the 1st band teams and projecting chalk except for them advancing:

By straight PWR:

1 St. Cloud   27  6  4  2   39
2 Notre Dame  21  7  3  1   32
3 Cornell     15  8  2  1   26
4 Ohio State  18  5  1  2   26

By offset from 1st band team seed:

1 St. Cloud   26  5  3  1   35
2 Notre Dame  19  5  1 -1   24
3 Cornell     12  5 -1 -2   14
4 Ohio State  14  1 -3 -2   10

I was asked to explain the tables.

The four teams are the 1st bands, in order by PWR.

In the first table, the columns are the rounds and the value is the PWR of the team to be played. The team is assumed to be from a chalk bracket. The final column is the total of the PWR -- the higher the number the easier the path.

In the second table all I did was subtract the row seed from the value in each cell. This offset gives the relative difficulty of the path and kinda sorta normalizes between the rows.

Things that jump out: Cornell gets hurt in the First Round because we play the hardest 4th-band opponent. However, if we get past them then the best possible team we can play in the QF (the 2nd band team) is actually the easiest that any of the 1st-bands have to play. So, the bracket taketh away in the 1R but giveth in the QF.

The second thing that jumps out is that by absolute strength our hardest path is no easier than Ohio State's -- this gives some support to the theory (to which I don't subscribe) that we got screwed compared with tOSU. Also note that in terms of relative strength, we are again closer to tOSU than to the midpoint between tOSU and Notre Dame.

However, the third thing: note that in the QF column of the relative chart we retain the same distance from our best possible QF opponent as Notre Dame and even St. Cloud. This shows tOSU was screwed compared to the rest of the 1st band teams as they ought being the worst of them.

But leaving those tables, I really think anybody who envies Ohio State being sent to Allentown should have their head examined. That's the Group of Death: the defending champion who just won their conference title and is the best 2nd-band team; the de facto home team in Penn State, and Princeton who we just saw is the real deal.