Time for a New Arena thread

I know tradition means alot.. but having just spent time at RIT who made the DIV 1 leap not too long ago, I think its time cornell got serious about lynah.

this is RITs new arena RIT ice arena

it cost about 30-40 million. about 6-7 in direct donations and the rest from their endowment, some of out being paid back thru increased revenues. Cornell has a much bigger tradition to draw on. We must have some alumni who would want in on this.

Some nice things I saw. better site lines, real seats, cup holders, a real scoreboard. full surround seating, multiple VIP suites, a restaurant , press boxes

we built a wrestling arena, why not hockey? 4K would be perfect size , put it up at the west end of the vet school lot, parking already exists, still walkable and multiple access routes with great visibility.

I hope they're playing in Lynah in 2100.

i hear that. but then i know they are losing kids because of the facilities. they are losing attendance because of the facilities, and they are losing income because of the facilities. if they keep losing will they have a tradition at all?

upprdeck
i hear that. but then i know they are losing kids because of the facilities. they are losing attendance because of the facilities, and they are losing income because of the facilities. if they keep losing will they have a tradition at all?

The condition of Lynah is not directly the reason fans are not showing up like they used to: there are lots of more likely reasons for that, one of which is this team's recent troubles on the ice. You may have a point re: recruiting, but in relation to facilities that mostly argues for better team facilities, not better seats/luxury boxes/cup holders, none of which the players experience when they're on the ice. I have no idea how nice or not the team facilities are vs. those at other schools' shiny new rinks.

Lynah is not Cornell's problem. A new rink alone is not going to magically bring the fans in if the team continues to plod along the way it has been. And I suspect the other stuff can be fixed without making any changes to the seating/eating, which makes the two issues mostly orthogonal.

upprdeck
but then i know they are losing kids because of the facilities

Source?

The "why is attendance down" debate can go in circles for a while, certainly. I'd start with ticket prices, though. Those should be lowered.

Personally, I'm not convinced that our performance is all that big a factor. Wasn't attendance strong during other stretches of not-great hockey? I could be mistaken on this.

And again, I'll harp on "ushers not letting anyone have any fun" as an issue. I understand cracking down on chants involving the refs and sheep-fuckery, but the crackdown went well beyond that.

Dafatone
The "why is attendance down" debate can go in circles for a while, certainly. I'd start with ticket prices, though. Those should be lowered.

Personally, I'm not convinced that our performance is all that big a factor. Wasn't attendance strong during other stretches of not-great hockey? I could be mistaken on this.

And again, I'll harp on "ushers not letting anyone have any fun" as an issue. I understand cracking down on chants involving the refs and sheep-fuckery, but the crackdown went well beyond that.

Yes, I think the biggest factors are ticket prices and ushers cracking down on fun and alcohol.

I have no idea why we'd be losing recruits due to our rink. Lynah is the best recruiting tool we have.

So to fill Lynah, it's more important we can curse, than win?

CAS
So to fill Lynah, it's more important we can curse, than win?

Regardless of the relative importance, one is easy to acheieve while the other is challenging.

KeithK

CAS
So to fill Lynah, it's more important we can curse, than win?

Regardless of the relative importance, one is easy to acheieve while the other is challenging.

Not necessarily cursing. In 2007, there was a big push to go after any fans who were too loud/annoying. I know that's hard to believe, given what we think of when we think of Lynah, but a friend of mine got told to tone it down a few times, and he certainly wasn't cursing.

upprdeck
Some nice things I saw. better site lines, real seats, cup holders, a real scoreboard. full surround seating, multiple VIP suites, a restaurant , press boxes

What's wrong with the sight lines at Lynah?

I understand that some folks would greatly prefer seats to benches and I won't argue with that. But real seats (especially with space for cup holders) take up a hell of a lot more space. So if you have the same capacity much of it will be a lot further from the ice. Which means less noise and atmosphere. Not to mention that the rake is unlikely to be as steep.

Does anyone really thing that the Cornell experience would be better if only we had a great soreboard?

I suppose VIP suites could help fund the program, assuming Ithaca could support them. But I don't care a bit about such things.

A restaurant? Why?

About the only thing you mention that might be a general positive is 360 degree seating.

I have never spoken to a recruit and it's been many years since I've had conversations with current players. But I doubt that they care much about things like VIP suites, cup holder or restaurants. They probably do care about locker rooms and training facilities. The last renovations was supposed to have addressed that concern.

Dafatone

KeithK

CAS
So to fill Lynah, it's more important we can curse, than win?

Regardless of the relative importance, one is easy to acheieve while the other is challenging.

Not necessarily cursing. In 2007, there was a big push to go after any fans who were too loud/annoying. I know that's hard to believe, given what we think of when we think of Lynah, but a friend of mine got told to tone it down a few times, and he certainly wasn't cursing.

I was being snarky, of course, but I agree with you completely. For ushers to crack down on someone for ing loud and obnoxious is pathetic. Again, changing that policy is a lot easier than winning championships.

Re: attendance decline and what makes lynah special, please read this thread:

Attendance at Lynah

and this one:

Important message to ice hockey ticket holders

Trotsky

upprdeck
but then i know they are losing kids because of the facilities

Source?

coach, scouts

OK. Let's say we have two pressing athletic needs:

1. A new ice arena to replace Lynah
2. A full-size indoor game & practice facilty for lacrosse & football (both kinds)

You're the Development Office. Which do you prioritize?

I have a been a season ticket holder for 30 years.. the better the team , the more demand for seats , the higher the ticket price goes.. I agree price has cut down on attendance. if you dont think the fact the seating sucks has an effect on people attending games then you are not in touch with the townies. as to why the students are not showing up i have no idea. thats a different issue..

i showed the RIT link, its not much different is size and in fact because it wraps all the way around the seating ends up almost the same size in lynah with much much more room both between the seats in each direction.

I dont know if VIP areas would work here but the box seats added nothing but cost way more and are empty much of the time so that idea didnt work. i know mamy pro arenas let people rent the vip suites on a per game basis and the ones at RIT are way better seats than the box seats at cornell.

we have thread after thread about recruiting. lynah is not the reason kids come, its the atmosphere that is created in lynah. you dont think they want better everything? new shiny toys sell kids. put some thought and effort into a new lynah. create a student section that builds up the energy, create one that lets the band sound better,

again a new scoreboard means we get replays and the like. new sound system means we can hear Aurthur . a new bldg means the ice issues probably go away. new bldg means we get a concourse that lets people go to the consessions and get back before a period starts.

maybe even we get a replay system that works.

are we going to live in lynah forever?

Swampy
OK. Let's say we have two pressing athletic needs:

1. A new ice arena to replace Lynah
2. A full-size indoor game & practice facilty for lacrosse & football (both kinds)

You're the Development Office. Which do you prioritize?

good question.. football can not be the reason we spend 15-20 million.. if we can spend that hockey drives the bus more than Lax. if we only have 5-10 million than we have to get a bubble.. and its all part of the master plan once baseball moves off campus all bets are off.

upprdeck
are we going to live in Lynah forever?

Why not? In all seriousness, the three most interesting rinks in the ECAC are, IINM, the three oldest: Lynah, Hobey, and Appleton. This isn't an accident. The modernity of rink facilities is convenient, but the style is insipid and the atmosphere is sterile. The classic example is Walker to Cheel. No thanks.

My understanding is we gutted the "underside" of Lynah and brought the lockerrooms and other facilities up to date. Do that, but keep the rink itself historic and interesting. Aesthetically, new buildings have all the charm of an office building.

upprdeck
put some thought and effort into a new lynah. create a student section that builds up the energy, create one that lets the band sound better,

I don't care how much thought you put into it. A new arena is not going to have better energy and sound an the old one. Fire codes and spacious seating will spread people out and move them away from the ice, which will detract from the energy. his has happened in every new arena that I am aware of. See greg's example of Clarkson but there are others and in multiple sports.

Now maybe you think that's acceptable in order to gain the convienences that you'd like to see. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. Maybe thoughtful design could limit the impact.

When were the renovations? They seem very recent to me but then the years run together, especially when I'm 3000 miles away. It feels to me like that investment was too recent for the school to even consider building a brand new arena. unless one of us gives a few tens of millions, of course.

upprdeck


are we going to live in lynah forever?

If not forever, I'm hoping for the rest of my life... For I don't believe my system could stand the heartbreak of a Cornell home rink other than Lynah....

upprdeck
we have thread after thread about recruiting. lynah is not the reason kids come, its the atmosphere that is created in lynah. you dont think they want better everything? new shiny toys sell kids. put some thought and effort into a new lynah. create a student section that builds up the energy, create one that lets the band sound better,

Yeah, it's not Lynah itself; it's the atmosphere Lynah creates. When Lynah trades benches for comfortable seats the students won't be standing the whole game anymore, there won't be as much noise packed into small spaces...I get your point about the townies, but players come to Lynah for the student section, and townies come to Lynah for the players. As a recent student who loved standing and screaming the entire game, I know for certain things would have been completely different if the games took place in a modern rink with big seats and all those other amenities. Plus it would raise ticket prices further, crowding out the demographic we really want to attract: the average Cornell student. Lynah, as it stands today, is a vaunted relic of simpler times and undefeated seasons, precisely because of its benches and lack of video and low rafters with banners hanging. I've been to many arenas, but there's no place I'd rather watch hockey than Lynah.

you can build the student section with benches if thats what they need to stand up. the goal is to get the energy back in the bldg and having half filled student sections isnt doing it now. RIT is no bigger than lynah but its a whole bunch nicer. they have a crazy student section too. ticket prices dont have to change to put a new bldg in. do you know how much is sitting there unused ear marked for a new lynah?

the kids who made lynah what it was are not getting into lynah because they cant get into the school any more with the admission policies.

the school added seats, demand went down and so did attendance. we should go back to 3000 seats in a new arena the place will look packed again and still feel quant. put wooden seats in if you want it to feel like the 60's again..

you have 2 groups of people at the games.. students who dont see it as a thing to do and townies who think its over priced, under performing and to most its a dump.. if they kids have no energy and the team is avg why will the townies keep coming to a place thats uncomfortable, has poor food, and is hard to get too and get around in.

we went from a pond to a rink its time to take the next step.. this isnt fenway/wrigley with millions of people who care about staying the same and even they have figured out change is good.

upprdeck

the school added seats, demand went down and so did attendance.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

No.

The team is boring to watch, frustrating, unexciting and unimaginative. For the first time since the 70's, I'm not going to MSG for a Cornell game scheduled there. Fix THAT stuff and I'd stand the whole game - on glass shards and hot coals - and still be a happy guy.

upprdeck
you can build the student section with benches if thats what they need to stand up. the goal is to get the energy back in the bldg and having half filled student sections isnt doing it now. RIT is no bigger than lynah but its a whole bunch nicer. they have a crazy student section too. ticket prices dont have to change to put a new bldg in. do you know how much is sitting there unused ear marked for a new lynah?

Realistically I don't think anyone would build a new arena with half benches and half seats. I can imagine students still standing with seats if the students who are around when the transition were to happen try to preserve the tradition. But it's less likely.

I have no idea if there is money sitting around earmarked for a new arena, But unless there is evidence to the contrary I will assume that there isn't any.

the kids who made lynah what it was are not getting into lynah because they cant get into the school any more with the admission policies.

Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that we can't attract top flight hockey players anymore? There certainly have been some issues with recruiting vs. admissions but this seems like an overbroad blanket statement.

the school added seats, demand went down and so did attendance. we should go back to 3000 seats in a new arena the place will look packed again and still feel quant. put wooden seats in if you want it to feel like the 60's again..

I agree that they guessed wrong thinking that there was suffficent demand in the market for the extra seats. Shrinking to 3000 would be overkill. The place was sold out at 3700 capacity for many years not that long ago and I'm not sure that there's been a structural drop in demand of 20%.

you have 2 groups of people at the games.. students who dont see it as a thing to do and townies who think its over priced, under performing and to most its a dump.. if they kids have no energy and the team is avg why will the townies keep coming to a place thats uncomfortable, has poor food, and is hard to get too and get around in.

Because there's nothing else to do in Ithaca?

I agree that people will come to the rink if they enjoy the experience. I have a hard time relating to folks who don't enjoy a hockey game because of the food or the concourses (which don't seem that difficult to get around in post-renovation). i even have a hard timrelating to people not enjoying it because the team isn't championship quality. I got hooked in 93-94 when we were atrocious. I guess the program has to think about people with this attitude since they need to sell tickets. But I for one wouldn't donate money to build a new arena to cater to these attitudes. (I know, no one is asking me and I couldn't give that much anyway.)

we went from a pond to a rink its time to take the next step.. this isnt fenway/wrigley with millions of people who care about staying the same and even they have figured out change is good.

Agree to disagree here. Wrigley and fenway are the best places in MLB to watch a ballgame precisely because of the old school "features" (drawbacks to some). The new places are convienent but don't have the same feel. I feel the same about hockey arenas.

Trotsky

upprdeck
are we going to live in Lynah forever?

Why not? In all seriousness, the three most interesting rinks in the ECAC are, IINM, the three oldest: Lynah, Hobey, and Appleton.

Really? My vote is for the Whale. In all seriousness, Ingalls is probably the most fascinating, beautiful, and functional sports arena I've ever been in, period. Lynah is great because of what happened there, and because it's small and loud, but otherwise it has very few virtues. The building itself is neither pretty nor distinguished. It's a barn that happened to host some of my fondest memories. I wish people wouldn't romanticize it beyond the bounds of credibility.

Aesthetically, new buildings have all the charm of an office building.

This is a garbage generalization, and you know it.

The team is boring to watch, frustrating, unexciting and unimaginative. For the first time since the 70's, I'm not going to MSG for a Cornell game scheduled there. Fix THAT stuff and I'd stand the whole game - on glass shards and hot coals - and still be a happy guy.

<2005>QFT.</2005>

KeithK
... and fenway are the best places in MLB to watch a ballgame precisely because of the old school "features" (drawbacks to some).

Yeah, Fenway is awesome if you like looking at support posts and craning your head 70 degrees to the left to see the infield if you didn't pay a ton for your seats.

Fenway is a dump designed by someone whose primary goals clearly weren't comfort or sight lines, and built several eras before modern engineering. I think people who like watching baseball games at Fenway like the idea of watching baseball and the experience of being in a historic ballpark more than the reality of watching a baseball game. Fenway is a terrible place to actually watch a baseball game compared to most modern ballparks. Camden Yards is a much better Fenway than Fenway.

At this point, I can't even.

Kyle Rose
This is a garbage generalization, and you know it.

You coming on to me, Kyle?

Kyle Rose

KeithK
... and fenway are the best places in MLB to watch a ballgame precisely because of the old school "features" (drawbacks to some).

Yeah, Fenway is awesome if you like looking at support posts and craning your head 70 degrees to the left to see the infield if you didn't pay a ton for your seats.

Fenway is a dump designed by someone whose primary goals clearly weren't comfort or sight lines, and built several eras before modern engineering. I think people who like watching baseball games at Fenway like the idea of watching baseball and the experience of being in a historic ballpark more than the reality of watching a baseball game. Fenway is a terrible place to actually watch a baseball game compared to most modern ballparks. Camden Yards is a much better Fenway than Fenway.

At this point, I can't even.

I agree. Fenway is a dump. I have been to the new Detroit part and is is really nice. Comfortable seats and easy access to concessions. And then there is the Cathedral of Baseball, Yankee Stadium. The new stadium is georgous, historic, and comfortable and the temple of the graceful extraction of money from your wallet. Sitting there in the sun, worshiping before the green alter is an experience.

I used to be skeptical about new parks but no longer. Bring on the wrecking ball.

Baseball has gotten a lot better. Hockey is still in that transitional Three Rivers / Riverfront stage where every new building looks exactly the same. The initial shininess fades and in a decade you're stuck with an old vision of what new looks like.

They're just veal fattening pens to suck the money from your wallet, anyway, and Cornell won't replace Lynah's replacement until the youngest person on this forum is dead, so let's be choosy.

Kyle Rose
Really? My vote is for the Whale. In all seriousness, Ingalls is probably the most fascinating, beautiful, and functional sports arena I've ever been in, period.

I've always felt the Whale was enormously overrated. Yes, it won architectural awards, but at the end of the day it's just an overbearing concrete monstrosity -- the Guggenheim's parking garage.

Wait. This is a real thread? You have to be kidding me. After reading through this, I feel like anyone who wants to have Lynah torn down should have their logins deleted. I haven't posted in this forum for 7 years, but read it to see what's going on with the program. The nonsense spouted above made me go back and find my password.

Seriously? We think Lynah is the problem? Arguably the greatest rink in college hockey, one of the biggest home ice advantages in college hockey, and what has been for a generation our biggest recruiting tool? Get real.

Three reasons attendance, and most importantly the atmosphere-building student attendance is down, all three noted above: (1) the team has been downright mediocre, (2) the crackdown on student cheering and (3) student ticket prices.

To whomever said that "new rinks are like office buildings" is a garbage generalization, simply put - you're wrong. But no amount of arguing about it will convince you, so keep your hands off our rink. Go tear down the Big House, Notre Dame Stadium, and Cameron instead. Re Lynah, fix the atmosphere and you fix the problem. How? Simple - Dip into that endowment a little and make student ticket prices $5/game and tell some of the overbearing ushers to take a xanax. You'll get the students and energy back. As for winning on the ice, well that's a discussion for a different thread.

On the topic of attendance, has the townie section been more empty than usual? When I hear of attendance being down, I think students, but some comments here make it sound like townie attendance is down, too.

Towerroad

Kyle Rose

KeithK
... and fenway are the best places in MLB to watch a ballgame precisely because of the old school "features" (drawbacks to some).

Yeah, Fenway is awesome if you like looking at support posts and craning your head 70 degrees to the left to see the infield if you didn't pay a ton for your seats.

Fenway is a dump designed by someone whose primary goals clearly weren't comfort or sight lines, and built several eras before modern engineering. I think people who like watching baseball games at Fenway like the idea of watching baseball and the experience of being in a historic ballpark more than the reality of watching a baseball game. Fenway is a terrible place to actually watch a baseball game compared to most modern ballparks. Camden Yards is a much better Fenway than Fenway.

At this point, I can't even.

I agree. Fenway is a dump. I have been to the new Detroit part and is is really nice. Comfortable seats and easy access to concessions. And then there is the Cathedral of Baseball, Yankee Stadium. The new stadium is georgous, historic, and comfortable and the temple of the graceful extraction of money from your wallet. Sitting there in the sun, worshiping before the green alter is an experience.

I used to be skeptical about new parks but no longer. Bring on the wrecking ball.

new Yankee Stadium is garbage, between that and Metlife, what a waste of a couple billion dollars.

The fan atmosphere will return when the team wins. The last time the fans sucked was during the 93-95 dip. It's not magic.

I personally like the defensive style, but it is definitely not as involving for the fans, and it's just brutal when they're bad. That will not change under Mike, but we shouldn't be surprised that Lynah has taken on a far less intense feeling than during the freewheeling days of the pond hockey 70s and 80s.

attendance went down the day they added seats. having sat on both sides in the last couple of years, its hard to say which is down more. getting seats is pretty easy, but are people buying tickets and then not coming to all the games anymore 'YES'. I know many townies dont bother with season tickets because you can get into any game the day of the game and you cant sell extras or give them away usually.

I dont know why students dont show up. section A is 40% empty half way thru the first period and I dont know as it was full any game this year.

This is something the students need to champion, get the SUN to go interview people and find out the WHY.. I do agree better teams would help, but this isnt a one year thing its a 20 year thing.

Fenway is a dump, but you have 100 years of baseball lore and a city that loves their team far more than the avg cornell kid loves the hockey program. Boston was not always selling out that long ago, they are on a high because demand makes people keep the season tickets and the baseball visitors want to see stadiums. Fenway is marketed in ways Lynah is not.

Lynah is not the home ice it once was and it never was the arena it was the fans who made it so..

$200 for student tickets for 20 games is not that bad a deal. less than a movie.

RIT student tickets are $200-400 as well.. our the cornell prices out of line with other schools?


I would also agree that the crack down on cheering makes it a less fun place to be. Too bad the 5% anti fun police won that battle

Towerroad
I agree. Fenway is a dump. I have been to the new Detroit part and is is really nice. Comfortable seats and easy access to concessions. And then there is the Cathedral of Baseball, Yankee Stadium. The new stadium is georgous, historic, and comfortable and the temple of the graceful extraction of money from your wallet. Sitting there in the sun, worshiping before the green alter is an experience.

I see what you did there.

Unless someone hands me tickets, I pretty much don't attend professional sporting events anymore. This started right around the time that monstrosity off the Deegan opened.

Trotsky
The fan atmosphere will return when the team wins. The last time the fans sucked was during the 93-95 dip. It's not magic.

I personally like the defensive style, but it is definitely not as involving for the fans, and it's just brutal when they're bad. That will not change under Mike, but we shouldn't be surprised that Lynah has taken on a far less intense feeling than during the freewheeling days of the pond hockey 70s and 80s.

I fell in love with the team, the building, and the atmosphere during 93-95, so they (we) couldn't have sucked that much.

Greenberg '97
Unless someone hands me tickets, I pretty much don't attend professional sporting events anymore.

Same here. Prices are insane, and the fan behavior that was funny when you're 20 is just pathetic when you're 50. And TV is simply a superior experience, all around. The only reason to attend a game in person is the atmosphere, and the atmosphere at pro events is highly negative.

CUontheslopes
Wait. This is a real thread? You have to be kidding me.

Too bad this thread didn't start five days earlier.

Greenberg '97

Trotsky
The fan atmosphere will return when the team wins. The last time the fans sucked was during the 93-95 dip. It's not magic.

I personally like the defensive style, but it is definitely not as involving for the fans, and it's just brutal when they're bad. That will not change under Mike, but we shouldn't be surprised that Lynah has taken on a far less intense feeling than during the freewheeling days of the pond hockey 70s and 80s.

I fell in love with the team, the building, and the atmosphere during 93-95, so they (we) couldn't have sucked that much.

Oh, it sucked, and people were Concern Trolling about it before Concern Trolling was even a thing. Then during the 98-00 dip people were writing Think Pieces about the death of Lynah before Think Pieces were a thing. One of the (few) advantages of extreme old age is having seen it all happen again and again... whenever the team has hit a protracted rough patch the fan support has gone into hibernation and everybody has knocked one another over in the scramble to find deep, systemic reasons for the Irreversible Decline of the Lynah Faithful.

And then we start winning and it all goes away.

Just. Win.

Trotsky

Greenberg '97

Trotsky
The fan atmosphere will return when the team wins. The last time the fans sucked was during the 93-95 dip. It's not magic.

I personally like the defensive style, but it is definitely not as involving for the fans, and it's just brutal when they're bad. That will not change under Mike, but we shouldn't be surprised that Lynah has taken on a far less intense feeling than during the freewheeling days of the pond hockey 70s and 80s.

I fell in love with the team, the building, and the atmosphere during 93-95, so they (we) couldn't have sucked that much.

Oh, it sucked

Sections E through H were completely empty. The sections where fans existed (A, B) were full by the end of warmups. This season, not one student section could be considered full until around the first intermission.

I remember there being constant crowd noise during play, but human memory is a bitch sometimes.

upprdeck
we went from a pond to a rink its time to take the next step.. this isnt fenway/wrigley with millions of people who care about staying the same and even they have figured out change is good.

[www.chicagotribune.com]

I'm growing to dislike video boards in general, but at a place like Wrigley, I think this is a crime against humanity. The number of places where we can enjoy something without being assaulted by a video screen is dwindling. Bars, restaurants, stadiums, arenas, & beautiful old train stations. I still hate the video board even at non-hallowed Schoellkopf. Watch people sitting in the Crescent after a play. A large majority of people will instinctively snap their heads to the left to watch whatever noise is on the gigantic TV. People at pro games will only cheer when the commanding words "MAKE SOME NOISE!!" dance and wiggle around on their video overlord.

You know that Powers (& Donors) That Be have had multiple meetings trying to figure out how to shoe-horn one of these things into Lynah, and I give our venerable building a pat on the back for its design resisting such an addition.

Also, this thread lost me as a serious exercise as soon as the words "cup holders" appeared.

I take exception to "attendance went down the day they added new seats"

First, this should be a thing we can just check. (Sadly, I don't really trust any arena's attendance stats anymore)

Second, I was a student during the addition- Lynah went from completely full to more-completely full. Because the team was good!

It sounds like the issue here is really one of townie vs. non-townie (alum, student) divide. Maybe the administration could do something to spruce up the seats on the townie side. But getting rid of Lynah...

Do we know what recruits want? Can we just put a shiny box around Lynah?

upprdeck
new bldg means we get a concourse that lets people go to the consessions and get back before a period starts.

The renovation provided terrific, wide concourses. I miss the standing-room railing, but I admit the concourses have made a world of difference in getting around. My only real criticisms of the recent renovation: 1) The design didn't account for the band. Tubas and trombones shouldn't be in danger of scraping the ceiling and hitting rafters. 2) The luxury boxes are pretty lame.

Trotsky
The fan atmosphere will return when the team wins. The last time the fans sucked was during the 93-95 dip. It's not magic.

I personally like the defensive style, but it is definitely not as involving for the fans, and it's just brutal when they're bad. That will not change under Mike, but we shouldn't be surprised that Lynah has taken on a far less intense feeling than during the freewheeling days of the pond hockey 70s and 80s.

No! Why do people keep saying this? The fans have been getting steadily less rowdy since 2006. In 2011-12 (NCAA year) the fans were worse than in 2007-08 (mediocre year). Winning has something to do with it, but nowhere near everything to do with it. I wasn't around before that but I've been told the fans of previous decades were consistently better than the ones today, successful season or not.

BearLover

Trotsky
The fan atmosphere will return when the team wins. The last time the fans sucked was during the 93-95 dip. It's not magic.

I personally like the defensive style, but it is definitely not as involving for the fans, and it's just brutal when they're bad. That will not change under Mike, but we shouldn't be surprised that Lynah has taken on a far less intense feeling than during the freewheeling days of the pond hockey 70s and 80s.

No! Why do people keep saying this? The fans have been getting steadily less rowdy since 2006. In 2011-12 (NCAA year) the fans were worse than in 2007-08 (mediocre year). Winning has something to do with it, but nowhere near everything to do with it. I wasn't around before that but I've been told the fans of previous decades were consistently better than the ones today, successful season or not.

It's safe to say that winning helps but I agree it's probably not everything. I'm not convinced that it's ticket prices, as some suggest, but lower prices certainly would help too. A more permissive environent would IMO help. But maybe students are just less interested in going to sporting events. If that's the case then I don't know if you can do anything. (Except maybe set off a nice EMP to blow out all the connected devices... sadly we probably couldn't get approval for that...)

KeithK
(Except maybe set off a nice EMP to blow out all the connected devices... sadly we probably couldn't get approval for that...)

Approval? No one got approval to tie a chicken to the goalposts, and look where that's gotten us.

BearLover
I wasn't around before that but I've been told the fans of previous decades were consistently better than the ones today, successful season or not.

Yeah, those fans aren't right. I can remember people being worried about the DEATH OF LYNAH in:

1984 -- Laing Kennedy had just become AD and was issuing edicts about cracking down on fan profanity. This was the days when entire sections were yelling "the ref fucks sheep" and extremely unpleasant things were being chanted about Pierre Belanger's mom.

1987 -- Only one year after a title, the team was terrible and by the end of the year sections were sparse. This was the first time the team had truly been el stinko since Ned, and it really dispelled the illusion that the Lynah crowd is great, win or lose. The Lynah crowd is great -- but they damn well better win.

1993 -- OK, this one time I'm going to side with the fans. That was the most mind-numbingly depressing season I've lived through; the team was terrible, the goonery was almost as bad as 1987, the fans were defeatist. That was the low point for the Lynah crowd that I can recall.

1995 -- Three years of losing, large numbers of people yelling for Brian's head, huge gaps in the crowd.

1999 -- This is the first time I remember people getting really upset about fans not showing up on time. Again, bad team, bad experience. Hockey-l posts about Nazi ushers and the demoralization of the fans due to the crackdown on cheers.

All the issues that people have complained about as somehow new among the fans today have surfaced like clockwork whenever the team has been bad.

OTOH, when we're good, or even great like 2003, older fans always say that "fans today still aren't as great as they were in x," where x is always 10+ years back, and this goes on as far back as I can remember, too. In 1985, when we finally made it back to the post-season and then the fans vaulted over the boards when we won the QF, I was assured this was nothing compared to the 70s. Now those same 80's crowds are called great by fans of my vintage when surveying the current fans and finding them wanting.

I strongly suspect it is all nonsense, that fan enthusiasm in completely determined by winning percentage and nothing else, and memories are merely fantasy generators.

At least now we'll have a record of this thread in 2030 when fans talk about the golden age of Lynah back in that national championship season of 2016, when the stands had been packed for decades and every fan had remained standing for every game throughout the teens.

Until it was all ruined by usher drones.

Trotsky

BearLover
I wasn't around before that but I've been told the fans of previous decades were consistently better than the ones today, successful season or not.

Yeah, those fans aren't right. I can remember people being worried about the DEATH OF LYNAH in:

1984 -- Laing Kennedy had just become AD and was issuing edicts about cracking down on fan profanity. This was the days when entire sections were yelling "the ref fucks sheep" and extremely unpleasant things were being chanted about Pierre Belanger's mom.

1987 -- Only one year after a title, the team was terrible and by the end of the year sections were sparse. This was the first time the team had truly been el stinko since Ned, and it really dispelled the illusion that the Lynah crowd is great, win or lose. The Lynah crowd is great -- but they damn well better win.

1993 -- OK, this one time I'm going to side with the fans. That was the most mind-numbingly depressing season I've lived through; the team was terrible, the goonery was almost as bad as 1987, the fans were defeatist. That was the low point for the Lynah crowd that I can recall.

1995 -- Three years of losing, large numbers of people yelling for Brian's head, huge gaps in the crowd.

1999 -- This is the first time I remember people getting really upset about fans not showing up on time. Again, bad team, bad experience. Hockey-l posts about Nazi ushers and the demoralization of the fans due to the crackdown on cheers.

All the issues that people have complained about as somehow new among the fans today have surfaced like clockwork whenever the team has been bad.

OTOH, when we're good, or even great like 2003, older fans always say that "fans today still aren't as great as they were in x," where x is always 10+ years back, and this goes on as far back as I can remember, too. In 1985, when we finally made it back to the post-season and then the fans vaulted over the boards when we won the QF, I was assured this was nothing compared to the 70s. Now those same 80's crowds are called great by fans of my vintage when surveying the current fans and finding them wanting.

I strongly suspect it is all nonsense, that fan enthusiasm in completely determined by winning percentage and nothing else, and memories are merely fantasy generators.

At least now we'll have a record of this thread in 2030 when fans talk about the golden age of Lynah back in that national championship season of 2016, when the stands had been packed for decades and every fan had remained standing for every game throughout the teens.

Until it was all ruined by usher drones.

I know for a fact that many of my friends were unwilling to buy season tickets because of the price, even though they loved any chance they got to attend a game. I know for a fact that fraternity and sorority attendance at the games is down--I have a hard time believing this has to do with winning percentage more than ability to be drunk and rowdy. Most of all, I know that nearly all freshmen had absolutely no idea what the team's record was the year before.

I saw the decline with my own eyes while I was a student a few years back--the students got a bit tardier and quieter every season, even though the team was similarly successful each year. This trend continued when I went back as an alum.

Do I need to remind everyone that Schafer himself said the crowds have sucked recently? [www.youtube.com]

BearLover

Trotsky

BearLover
I wasn't around before that but I've been told the fans of previous decades were consistently better than the ones today, successful season or not.

Yeah, those fans aren't right. I can remember people being worried about the DEATH OF LYNAH in:

1984 -- Laing Kennedy had just become AD and was issuing edicts about cracking down on fan profanity. This was the days when entire sections were yelling "the ref fucks sheep" and extremely unpleasant things were being chanted about Pierre Belanger's mom.

1987 -- Only one year after a title, the team was terrible and by the end of the year sections were sparse. This was the first time the team had truly been el stinko since Ned, and it really dispelled the illusion that the Lynah crowd is great, win or lose. The Lynah crowd is great -- but they damn well better win.

1993 -- OK, this one time I'm going to side with the fans. That was the most mind-numbingly depressing season I've lived through; the team was terrible, the goonery was almost as bad as 1987, the fans were defeatist. That was the low point for the Lynah crowd that I can recall.

1995 -- Three years of losing, large numbers of people yelling for Brian's head, huge gaps in the crowd.

1999 -- This is the first time I remember people getting really upset about fans not showing up on time. Again, bad team, bad experience. Hockey-l posts about Nazi ushers and the demoralization of the fans due to the crackdown on cheers.

All the issues that people have complained about as somehow new among the fans today have surfaced like clockwork whenever the team has been bad.

OTOH, when we're good, or even great like 2003, older fans always say that "fans today still aren't as great as they were in x," where x is always 10+ years back, and this goes on as far back as I can remember, too. In 1985, when we finally made it back to the post-season and then the fans vaulted over the boards when we won the QF, I was assured this was nothing compared to the 70s. Now those same 80's crowds are called great by fans of my vintage when surveying the current fans and finding them wanting.

I strongly suspect it is all nonsense, that fan enthusiasm in completely determined by winning percentage and nothing else, and memories are merely fantasy generators.

At least now we'll have a record of this thread in 2030 when fans talk about the golden age of Lynah back in that national championship season of 2016, when the stands had been packed for decades and every fan had remained standing for every game throughout the teens.

Until it was all ruined by usher drones.

I know for a fact that many of my friends were unwilling to buy season tickets because of the price, even though they loved any chance they got to attend a game. I know for a fact that fraternity and sorority attendance at the games is down--I have a hard time believing this has to do with winning percentage more than ability to be drunk and rowdy. Most of all, I know that nearly all freshmen had absolutely no idea what the team's record was the year before.

I saw the decline with my own eyes while I was a student a few years back--the students got a bit tardier and quieter every season, even though the team was similarly successful each year. This trend continued when I went back as an alum.

Do I need to remind everyone that Schafer himself said the crowds have sucked recently? [www.youtube.com]

I think you're both right (way to make a lame cop-out, me!). Attendance IS down. We've had down periods before. We'll have down periods again. This isn't a phenomenon only specific to right now. But at the same time, my understanding of basic economics says that high prices only make sense when you're selling out. And I've been whining for nearly a decade that the atmosphere in Lynah lost something starting in 06-07.

BearLover
Do I need to remind everyone that Schafer himself said the crowds have sucked recently? [www.youtube.com]

How does this conflict with the premise that the crowd sucks when the team sucks?

The freshmen get their knowledge and enthusiasm for the hockey team from the upper classmen -- virtually nobody arrives on campus having even heard of college hockey -- and that varies directly with the team's fortunes.

I can't speak to the prices, though I do remember people bitching about them even when I was a student back in the Mesozoic Era. I absolutely agree there should be a steep discount for seasons; I've always thought exhibition and playoff tickets should be free for season ticket holders (they actually did this once by using the ticket booklet as a pass).

cornell controls ticket prices but not for the play off games. thats ECAC money.

there are multiple issues inplay here. some people want the nastalgia to live forever and I get that. if you ask the townies they want lower prices, more winning and better amenities. Hard to say what current students want, and alumns who come back for games probably want different things than alums who belong to this board.

All I know is having seen RIT and Oswego, lynah is a pit and I dont think you can dispute the level of talent we are getting here is down , a new building isnt going to make that worse and it might help. its much easier to keep ticket prices high if you show someone some things that make them happy about being there.. we can only control the winning so much, but you can make it more enjoyable. You cant even do things that get the crowd excited like the Forum does in montreal with the lack of equipment we have here..

Trotsky

BearLover
I wasn't around before that but I've been told the fans of previous decades were consistently better than the ones today, successful season or not.

Yeah, those fans aren't right. I can remember people being worried about the DEATH OF LYNAH in:

1984 -- Laing Kennedy had just become AD and was issuing edicts about cracking down on fan profanity. This was the days when entire sections were yelling "the ref fucks sheep" and extremely unpleasant things were being chanted about Pierre Belanger's mom.

1987 -- Only one year after a title, the team was terrible and by the end of the year sections were sparse. This was the first time the team had truly been el stinko since Ned, and it really dispelled the illusion that the Lynah crowd is great, win or lose. The Lynah crowd is great -- but they damn well better win.

1993 -- OK, this one time I'm going to side with the fans. That was the most mind-numbingly depressing season I've lived through; the team was terrible, the goonery was almost as bad as 1987, the fans were defeatist. That was the low point for the Lynah crowd that I can recall.

1995 -- Three years of losing, large numbers of people yelling for Brian's head, huge gaps in the crowd.

1999 -- This is the first time I remember people getting really upset about fans not showing up on time. Again, bad team, bad experience. Hockey-l posts about Nazi ushers and the demoralization of the fans due to the crackdown on cheers.

All the issues that people have complained about as somehow new among the fans today have surfaced like clockwork whenever the team has been bad.

OTOH, when we're good, or even great like 2003, older fans always say that "fans today still aren't as great as they were in x," where x is always 10+ years back, and this goes on as far back as I can remember, too. In 1985, when we finally made it back to the post-season and then the fans vaulted over the boards when we won the QF, I was assured this was nothing compared to the 70s. Now those same 80's crowds are called great by fans of my vintage when surveying the current fans and finding them wanting.

I strongly suspect it is all nonsense, that fan enthusiasm in completely determined by winning percentage and nothing else, and memories are merely fantasy generators.

At least now we'll have a record of this thread in 2030 when fans talk about the golden age of Lynah back in that national championship season of 2016, when the stands had been packed for decades and every fan had remained standing for every game throughout the teens.

Until it was all ruined by usher drones.

From your keyboard to God's ears.

CUontheslopes
To whomever said that "new rinks are like office buildings" is a garbage generalization, simply put - you're wrong.

Ok, bud: killer argument there.

In all seriousness, I'm not actually advocating for Lynah to be torn down: if you were paying attention, you know I was also the person who said that Lynah is not Cornell hockey's problem. But this worship of mediocre spaces is just dumb. (I'm an equal opportunity bullshit-caller.) Cornell hockey isn't Lynah, and Lynah isn't Cornell hockey. Cornell hockey will have either a resurgent or a dying tradition for many reasons, and the precise physical condition of the rink they play in, as experienced by the fans, is one of the least important of those reasons. Recruiting, coaching, fan enjoyment of the entire experience (e.g., not having the ushers all up in your shit every time you open your mouth), price and competition with other avenues of entertainment, and most of all *winning*, are way more important.

Here's a version of Swampy's Law of demand for attending hockey games:

D = Y_D(d) x P(d) x I(d,w, A, S) / d²

Where:

D is demand for attending hockey games,

Y_D(d) is disposable income as a (nonlinear?) function of distance from the arena,

P(d) is population density as a (nonlinear) function of distance from the arena,

I(d,w,A,S) is fan interest as a function of distance, team winning %, Alumnus status, and Student status (i.e. being a current or prospective student or being a parent of one), and

d is distance from the arena (ala Newton).

The P(d) term by itself indicates a natural advantage places like RIT have. The Y_D term may indicate something about the economy recently, although Ithaca itself probably does better than Rochester on this score, until you get away from the ten square miles and into the surrounding reality. I do think the coefficient for the w term is very high.

Swampy
Here's a version of Swampy's Law of demand for attending hockey games:

D = Y_D(d) x P(d) x I(d,w, A, S) / d²

Where:

D is demand for attending hockey games,

Y_D(d) is disposable income as a (nonlinear?) function of distance from the arena,

P(d) is population density as a (nonlinear) function of distance from the arena,

I(d,w,A,S) is fan interest as a function of distance, team winning %, Alumnus status, and Student status (i.e. being a current or prospective student or being a parent of one), and

d is distance from the arena (ala Newton).

The P(d) term by itself indicates a natural advantage places like RIT have. The Y_D term may indicate something about the economy recently, although Ithaca itself probably does better than Rochester on this score, until you get away from the ten square miles and into the surrounding reality. I do think the coefficient for the w term is very high.

Did you really just try to model hockey fandom without introducing a variable for alcohol?

Well, I suppose you could argue it's a constant.

Kyle Rose
But this worship of mediocre spaces is just dumb.

The worship of mediocre spaces is what explains the aesthetic appeal of almost everything old. Fenway is a dump, and it was a dump in 1980 and 1960 and 1940. But the aging of a dump gives it charm, as long as it isn't in Uniondale. Hell, even Shea felt wonderful at the end.

I admit that what I want is not to wreck the Lynah experience, and while that doesn't require Lynah itself, it does require staying away from the braying banality of modernity. Large scoreboards, piped-in music, and advertising filling every available nook has pretty much destroyed the entire world. Lynah is a place that has so far mostly escaped it. That is worth preserving. Someday, if humans become smarter (unlikely) or we slip the choke collar of commerce (more unlikely), there will be less risk of exchanging Lynah for a different atmosphere. But currently the atmospheres on offer from new facilities are ghastly, and anything beating against that current is worth preserving.

Okay here I go.

Do people really believe that the reason we don't get students is because they can't come drunk and say F**k you ref? Really? Do you think that's the reason why those of us who started the tradition of rowdy Cornell fans came to Lynah in the first place?

No, Cornell fans got their reputation because they loved beating those other hockey schools, mainly those in Boston, and liked to make a lot of noise doing it. Yes, there were some off color cheers, "The ref f**ks sheep" was a good example. But that was a tiny minority of the volume. We owned the Boston Garden, just like we own Lynah East. We won there most of the time, but even if we didn't win, we were loud. Boston fans hated us, but the Garden and local facilities loved that we brought the crowds. Just look at my signature, would any newspaper write that about us today? (Say nothing of the fact that most reporters today probably couldn't come up with the phrase.)

I've been here forever, am a townie, sort of, and could care less about the so called amenities. I bring friends who go to other events in much more elaborate facilities, and almost universally, they've had fun when Lynah was rocking. They didn't mind that there weren't cup holders and would gladly rise when the students yelled "Townies up." No the facility isn't what has made the atmosphere, the people have made the atmosphere, mainly the students.

As for attendance, I don't think the townie side has dropped off nearly as much as the student side. I don't think you're going to get more to come because they have cupholders. Sorry to overuse that example. Get a team that wins, and has a chance in every game, and restart some student noise, and the "adults" will show up.

So for me, if we were to have the amount of money needed to build one of those "new" facilities, with all the trimmings, we'd be a lot better off spending the money to subsidize the student ticket prices, and letting them in for a nominal charge. So if you really think you know that special donor who wants his name on that shiny new building, ask him to buy their tickets, so they can walk into Lynah through the GEORGE P DONOR SUBSIDIZED STUDENT ENTRANCE.

The ticket prices for students are too high, plain and simple. And maybe students really are different today, that I can't speak to.

has anyone actually looked at student prices compared to other schools to say they are too high? the avg family income for a cornell student is higher than RIt. I agree prices are high, but still they are a bargain.

Jim Hyla
The ticket prices for students are too high, plain and simple.

I agree, by the way. It's always about butts in seats. If there aren't enough butts in seats, lower the price.

Make the entire student section GA while you're at it.

Pretty simple.

Trotsky

Kyle Rose
But this worship of mediocre spaces is just dumb.

The worship of mediocre spaces is what explains the aesthetic appeal of almost everything old. Fenway is a dump, and it was a dump in 1980 and 1960 and 1940. But the aging of a dump gives it charm, as long as it isn't in Uniondale. Hell, even Shea felt wonderful at the end.

The prosecution rests.

I admit that what I want is not to wreck the Lynah experience, and while that doesn't require Lynah itself, it does require staying away from the braying banality of modernity. Large scoreboards, piped-in music, and advertising filling every available nook has pretty much destroyed the entire world. Lynah is a place that has so far mostly escaped it. That is worth preserving. Someday, if humans become smarter (unlikely) or we slip the choke collar of commerce (more unlikely), there will be less risk of exchanging Lynah for a different atmosphere. But currently the atmospheres on offer from new facilities are ghastly, and anything beating against that current is worth preserving.

This is a better argument. But I don't know that a new rink necessarily has to come along with all of that. (Though I do think replays on a large screen would be nice: I certainly benefit from them at pro games.) And frankly, I think Cornell could do most of what you're suggesting without replacing Lynah, yet they have chosen not to. But if the fans don't get off their phones and scream, or if the ushers don't pull the carbon rods out of their asses, even Lynah may need artificial noise at some point. There are a myriad of problems here, and I think the focus on Lynah-the-building is a distraction from the real issues.

Here's an argument too pithy and dumb to be easily countered:

We're talking about this on eLynah, not eCornellhockey.

Trotsky

BearLover
Do I need to remind everyone that Schafer himself said the crowds have sucked recently? [www.youtube.com]

How does this conflict with the premise that the crowd sucks when the team sucks?

Because if Schafer brings it up in a postgame interview then you know this isn't a typical circumstance. Moreover, Cornell after the Harvard game this year hadn't sunk to its lowest level of 2015 suckage, and 2014 wasn't a bad year. So I wouldn't say the effects of the team sucking on attendance were in full swing.

The freshmen get their knowledge and enthusiasm for the hockey team from the upper classmen -- virtually nobody arrives on campus having even heard of college hockey -- and that varies directly with the team's fortunes.

I don't think freshmen really interact with upperclassmen much before hockey tickets go on sale.

During my four years on the hill, it felt like the demand for tickets decreased every year, regardless of how good we were the year before.

And who is to say that students even care most about overall win %? Maybe they care most about home win %, or excitement of home wins--the games are most memorable that way. I don't think most students, even ones who attend the games, care much about the team's success on the road.

Anyway, I've never doubted winning is important, but price is the number one easily controllable factor standing in the way of a louder Lynah.

And to echo what others have said, I would feel genuinely said and definitely attend fewer games if Lynah were replaced by some state of the art megarink.

I'm an '07 and '10 Law School grad and at the ripe old age of 30 it cracks me up to hear people talk about what is and what is not expensive for a student. $200 isn't that much to me at 30, but it was a lot to me at 19 or 20. Make people go through the line process again, but then give the tickets away for free (or nearly free, e.g. $50 for a season) and you'll get the attendance to rise. There's no question that in my 7 years on the hill the greek system's attendance fell off considerably. Get the fraternities and sororities involved again and you'll get the attendance and the energy back up.

A friend brought up a solid argument that the shift from the line to the lottery may have dampened some hockey enthusiasm by keeping out some of our more rabid fans.

Since we're not selling out, it's kinda moot, but that's something to keep in mind.

Dafatone
A friend brought up a solid argument that the shift from the line to the lottery may have dampened some hockey enthusiasm by keeping out some of our more rabid fans.

It worked another way, too. The line created esprit de corps among the fans. Other than a few of the frats who obviously cheated, the fans genuinely liked one another and had a shared monastic experience of "suffering" (well, the worst suffering privileged white teenagers from Long Island can be expected to endure, anyway).

The line was the first Cornell hockey experience for freshmen, and it set the tone that this was an identifying experience. Plus it was fun and led to a tremendous amount of drinking and casual sex. Students today are denied that experience (and even granting that students today seem incredibly boring and unimaginative, I assume they'd still perk up for that).

Trotsky
The line was the first Cornell hockey experience for freshmen, and it set the tone that this was an identifying experience. Plus it was fun and led to a tremendous amount of drinking and casual sex. Students today are denied that experience (and even granting that students today seem incredibly boring and unimaginative, I assume they'd still perk up for that).

LOL at the idea that students today are missing out on casual sex because they didn't stand on line for hockey tickets.

Kyle Rose

Trotsky
The line was the first Cornell hockey experience for freshmen, and it set the tone that this was an identifying experience. Plus it was fun and led to a tremendous amount of drinking and casual sex. Students today are denied that experience (and even granting that students today seem incredibly boring and unimaginative, I assume they'd still perk up for that).

LOL at the idea that students today are missing out on casual sex because they didn't stand on line for hockey tickets.

That's not quite what I said, though now you mention it I assume the little bastards' phones get more action than they do.

or it was (is) the coldest snowiest winter in 30+ years, and maybe people are a little less inclined to trek out to see a hockey game when it is -20f.

One of the (few) advantages of extreme old age is having seen it all happen again and again... whenever the team has hit a protracted rough patch the fan support has gone into hibernation and everybody has knocked one another over in the scramble to find deep, systemic reasons for the Irreversible Decline of the Lynah Faithful.

And then we start winning and it all goes away.

From an even longer perspective than Greg's--from the day the rink opened--I'll agree that there have always been ups and downs. But I think there may be a distinction between attendance and rink atmosphere. Changes in attendance in phase with winning seem clearer to me than does change in noise and enthusiasm. That, too, probably has some correspondence with winning but, I think, around an overall downward trend that doesn't really track wins and losses.

I, of course, think Lynah should stand forever and that any replacement would have a negative effect on atmosphere and its relation to recruiting.

upprdeck
I have a been a season ticket holder for 30 years.. the better the team , the more demand for seats , the higher the ticket price goes.. I agree price has cut down on attendance. if you dont think the fact the seating sucks has an effect on people attending games then you are not in touch with the townies.

Who are these dainty townies?

Trotsky

Dafatone
A friend brought up a solid argument that the shift from the line to the lottery may have dampened some hockey enthusiasm by keeping out some of our more rabid fans.

It worked another way, too. The line created esprit de corps among the fans. Other than a few of the frats who obviously cheated, the fans genuinely liked one another and had a shared monastic experience of "suffering" (well, the worst suffering privileged white teenagers from Long Island can be expected to endure, anyway).

The line was the first Cornell hockey experience for freshmen, and it set the tone that this was an identifying experience. Plus it was fun and led to a tremendous amount of drinking and casual sex. Students today are denied that experience (and even granting that students today seem incredibly boring and unimaginative, I assume they'd still perk up for that).

I was in a frat at the time and used to let some of the brothers "cheat" for me by saving my place. In return, I'd do chores and similar things for them. But they never told me about the casual sex! Now that you tell me, I realize I really got a raw deal.

Trotsky

Dafatone
A friend brought up a solid argument that the shift from the line to the lottery may have dampened some hockey enthusiasm by keeping out some of our more rabid fans.

It worked another way, too. The line created esprit de corps among the fans. Other than a few of the frats who obviously cheated, the fans genuinely liked one another and had a shared monastic experience of "suffering" (well, the worst suffering privileged white teenagers from Long Island can be expected to endure, anyway).

The line was the first Cornell hockey experience for freshmen, and it set the tone that this was an identifying experience. Plus it was fun and led to a tremendous amount of drinking and casual sex. Students today are denied that experience (and even granting that students today seem incredibly boring and unimaginative, I assume they'd still perk up for that).

To be clear, you're taking about a real line and not the artificial slumber party the university has organized in more recent years, right?

upprdeck
You cant even do things that get the crowd excited like the Forum does in montreal with the lack of equipment we have here..

I think Rich's head just exploded.

jtwcornell91

upprdeck
You cant even do things that get the crowd excited like the Forum does in montreal with the lack of equipment we have here..

I think Rich's head just exploded.

if anyone doesnt think the pregame video projection montreal does is not great for creating energy in a bldg they are crazy.

you cant rely on the students any more because they arent there until 10 min into a game. the band is great for during the game

upprdeck

jtwcornell91

upprdeck
You cant even do things that get the crowd excited like the Forum does in montreal with the lack of equipment we have here..

I think Rich's head just exploded.

if anyone doesnt think the pregame video projection montreal does is not great for creating energy in a bldg they are crazy.

you cant rely on the students any more because they arent there until 10 min into a game. the band is great for during the game

Call me crazy. That stuff is just depressing. Leave video projection to places like Quinnipiac.

I think it's really cool when done right but no way would Cornells budget support something that high tech, so it's probably just be tacky.

underskill
I think it's really cool when done right but no way would Cornells budget support something that high tech, so it's probably just be tacky.

I think it sucks. Detracts from the game, like a screaming, homer PA announcer.

underskill
I think it's really cool when done right but no way would Cornell's budget support something that high tech, so it's probably just be tacky.

They had something like it at Homecoming this year. Not sure if it was something that the university brought in or if it was something the company that did the fireworks/light show had.
[www.youtube.com]

underskill
I think it's really cool when done right but no way would Cornells budget support something that high tech, so it's probably just be tacky.

How is this possible?

Granted, Cornell's endowment is not Harvard's, but the endowment, tuition, NY's Land Grant contribution, and research overhead surely make Cornell one of the richest universities in the country. What do you think the president of RIT would do if you gave RIT the opportunity to be in a financial situation comparable to Cornell's.

Swampy

underskill
I think it's really cool when done right but no way would Cornells budget support something that high tech, so it's probably just be tacky.

How is this possible?

Granted, Cornell's endowment is not Harvard's, but the endowment, tuition, NY's Land Grant contribution, and research overhead surely make Cornell one of the richest universities in the country. What do you think the president of RIT would do if you gave RIT the opportunity to be in a financial situation comparable to Cornell's.

Cornell is also a very large institution with a very large list of prioritiese and commitments. Being among the richest does not imply that there is a lot of money aailable for any specific thing.

Swampy
What do you think the president of RIT would do if you gave RIT the opportunity to be in a financial situation comparable to Cornell's.

Hopefully invest in educational infrastructure, not squander it on explosions, fireworks, and pointless visual projections for sports.

RichH

Swampy
What do you think the president of RIT would do if you gave RIT the opportunity to be in a financial situation comparable to Cornell's.

Hopefully invest in educational infrastructure, not squander it on explosions, fireworks, and pointless visual projections for sports.

Yeah, I hope none of the F&A on my grants went into building RIT's new hockey arena.

but we will spend millions on a charter day weekend that im sure everyone on this board plans to attend..

we are close to top 20 in endowment. but we are also close to double the schools from 30 on down.

I think the time has come to post this again:
video: [www.youtube.com]

jtwcornell91
I think the time has come to post this again:
video: [www.youtube.com]

Yes, well.

The thing is, if you assured me Cornell would create something with that degree of humor and insanity, I'd at least waver. But we've all seen what's come out of Cornell the last 50 years. (The "I would found..." intermission video is enough to warrant stabbing every Comm Arts graduate in the face.) Cornell's branding / image-making / marketing is so lacking in charm, humor or creativity it would make Tucker Carlson's skin crawl. It is the organizational embodiment of this guy.

So, no. They are not to be trusted.

Trotsky

jtwcornell91
I think the time has come to post this again:
video: [www.youtube.com]

Yes, well.

The thing is, if you assured me Cornell would create something with that degree of humor and insanity, I'd at least waver. But we've all seen what's come out of Cornell the last 50 years. (The "I would found..." intermission video is enough to warrant stabbing every Comm Arts graduate in the face.) Cornell's branding / image-making / marketing is so lacking in charm, humor or creativity it would make Tucker Carlson's skin crawl. It is the organizational embodiment of this guy.

So, no. They are not to be trusted.

But what about that charming Andy Noel self promotion piece? My donation dollars were never better spent. Who wants to help actual students after all.

Trotsky
But we've all seen what's come out of Cornell the last 50 years.

Yes, this one is pretty lame, but, in fairness, Cornell didn't produce it. I agree, however, that our university could vastly improve its videos.

Here are some that I particularly like:
Columbia
Oxford

All of you are missing the obvious solution. Colgate figured it out a long time ago. FREE PIZZA!