Lake Placid Attendance

Poll

How many fans will be at the ECAC final on Saturday?

This poll has expired. Voting is no longer possible.
56 votes were received.

<4,000 (A.C. bad)	9		16%
4,000 - 5,000	15		27%
5,000-6,000	22		39%
6,000-7,249	6		11%
>7,250 (Placid '93-'02 average)	4		7%

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After all the gnashing of teeth about the move, what do we think the attendance is going to look in Lake Placid with Union, Quinnipiac, Colgate, and Cornell competing?

Red means Cornell played meaningful (non-consolation) game.

Placid:
1993: ---- / 7867
1994: ---- / 6316
1995: ---- / 6562
1996: ---- / 8300
1997: ---- / 8081
1998: ---- / 5289
1999: ---- / 8469
2000: 5389 / 6790
2001: 4990 / 6256
2002: 5422 / 6518
Finals average: 7249

Albany:
2003: 6936 / 8296
2004: 5641 / 6489
2005: 7580 / 8637
2006: 6255 / 7093
2007: 4484 / 5565
2008: 5074 / 4851
2009: 3517 / 4857
2010: ???? / 6505
Finals average: 6536

New Jersey:
2011: 3351 / 4126
2012: 3462 / 4131
2013: 3145 / 4017
Finals average: 4091

Placid:
2014: 4227 / 4850


So by exactly one fan, the finals attendance was the worst non-AC final of the past 20 years.

Could be huge difference depending upon Cornell winning Friday or not. I don't think any of the other 3 teams travel particularly well. Colgate doesn't, Union might and should, and I just don't see a lot of Q fans making the 4-5 hour drive. If Q wins Friday, some might drive Sat to try and see their first championship. If we win Friday, CU fans wll stay, and some might drive up Sat. If we lose, some people will leave and not stay for Sat night's game. However they'll still be included in stats, if they bought All-session tickets. So I'm not looking for the Placid average, I hope I'm wrong.

During the previous run in Lake Placid there at least one of the North Country schools made the field each year. Without the Knights and Saints this year I think the tournament wil struggle to do as well.

Jim Hyla
Could be huge difference depending upon Cornell winning Friday or not. I don't think any of the other 3 teams travel particularly well. Colgate doesn't, Union might and should, and I just don't see a lot of Q fans making the 4-5 hour drive. If Q wins Friday, some might drive Sat to try and see their first championship. If we win Friday, CU fans wll stay, and some might drive up Sat. If we lose, some people will leave and not stay for Sat night's game. However they'll still be included in stats, if they bought All-session tickets. So I'm not looking for the Placid average, I hope I'm wrong.

Q is running the type of ship that I would expect them (over any other ECAC organization) to charter several buses filled with kids who are fine with ditching the Hamden/New Haven bars and also ship loads of free yellow t-shirts, thunderstix, paddlegames, and whatever else so they look like impressive fans. However, given that they are hosting the NCAA Women's Frozen Four this weekend, I'm guessing the Quinnipiac Athletics Corporation wants most of their resources dedicated to running that event and looking good on the teevee.

There's a fair amount of students here who want to go to the game, and are more than willing to buy tickets, but either have no means of transportation to get there, or no place to stay. If the University offered some sort of transportation or something, I'm sure a bunch of students would do it. Or you could just be in the pep band and get to go for free! I'm aware that Lake Placid being even more in the middle of nowhere than Ithaca will probably negatively impact attendance, but I'm excited to see where the Miracle on Ice happened at least

Posted this in another thread, probably better here.

From Brian Sullivan's latest USCHO blog:

Just spoke with Hagwell: Still too early to note or predict ticket sales, but Cornell and Union each requested more than the vague "standard block" of tickets, so the Dutchmen and Big Red should be quite well represented. Not sure about QU/Colgate's level of fan interest so far... Hagwell anticipates actual numbers by Tues/Wed, so stay tuned.

ScrewBUHarvardtoo
There's a fair amount of students here who want to go to the game, and are more than willing to buy tickets, but either have no means of transportation to get there, or no place to stay. If the University offered some sort of transportation or something, I'm sure a bunch of students would do it. Or you could just be in the pep band and get to go for free! I'm aware that Lake Placid being even more in the middle of nowhere than Ithaca will probably negatively impact attendance, but I'm excited to see where the Miracle on Ice happened at least

Go to a school trying to build a name for itself. Marist circa 2009 got its women into the NCAA basketball tournament and the school chartered a plane for the first round game for however many fans fit the plane. First come, first serve. Deeply discounted flght and tix. Seated in a group near the court, Marist-colored T-shirts for TV exposure. That's the quick way. Compare that to Wisconsin chartering dozens of buses to get fans to the men's hockey NCAAs. 17 hours, Madison to Boston. Those are fans.

billhoward
Compare that to Wisconsin chartering dozens of buses to get fans to the men's hockey NCAAs. 17 hours, Madison to Boston. Those are fans.

That must have been one helluva trips. I wonder how many babies were conceived on 90 East.

Trotsky

billhoward
Compare that to Wisconsin chartering dozens of buses to get fans to the men's hockey NCAAs. 17 hours, Madison to Boston. Those are fans.

That must have been one helluva trips. I wonder how many babies were conceived on 90 East.

Wisconsin fans were the kind who made third-place games well-attended. At the time. Imagine being the driver(s): 17 hours in winter driving with the window cracked open to keep the burning leaves smell from overwhelming you. Now, you'd just get over to Milaukee or O'Hare and fly to wherever you're going.

ScrewBUHarvardtoo
There's a fair amount of students here who want to go to the game, and are more than willing to buy tickets, but either have no means of transportation to get there, or no place to stay. If the University offered some sort of transportation or something, I'm sure a bunch of students would do it. Or you could just be in the pep band and get to go for free! I'm aware that Lake Placid being even more in the middle of nowhere than Ithaca will probably negatively impact attendance, but I'm excited to see where the Miracle on Ice happened at least

I am in this camp. Can't make it Friday because I can't afford a hotel nor the gas/energy to drive back and forth. Bought for Saturday and am hoping they can get there. Figured I am going to be less upset about losing the money than I would be if they get to the finals and win while I watch on tv.

LGR14

ScrewBUHarvardtoo
There's a fair amount of students here who want to go to the game, and are more than willing to buy tickets, but either have no means of transportation to get there, or no place to stay. If the University offered some sort of transportation or something, I'm sure a bunch of students would do it. Or you could just be in the pep band and get to go for free! I'm aware that Lake Placid being even more in the middle of nowhere than Ithaca will probably negatively impact attendance, but I'm excited to see where the Miracle on Ice happened at least

I am in this camp. Can't make it Friday because I can't afford a hotel nor the gas/energy to drive back and forth. Bought for Saturday and am hoping they can get there. Figured I am going to be less upset about losing the money than I would be if they get to the finals and win while I watch on tv.

Hotel rooms aren't that expensive if you split the cost six or eight ways. Sure, you might end up sleeping on the floor but there are worse things.

KeithK
Hotel rooms aren't that expensive if you split the cost six or eight ways. Sure, you might end up sleeping on the floor but there are worse things.

It builds esprit du corps. When I was an undergrad (shakes cane) the first time we went on the Harvard trip we split a hotel room with 2 queen beds between 8 kids, a guinea pig, and a birthday cake. Learning to sleep soundly in a bathtub is an invaluable life skill.

Trotsky

KeithK
Hotel rooms aren't that expensive if you split the cost six or eight ways. Sure, you might end up sleeping on the floor but there are worse things.

It builds esprit du corps. When I was an undergrad (shakes cane) the first time we went on the Harvard trip we split a hotel room with 2 queen beds between 8 kids, a guinea pig, and a birthday cake. Learning to sleep soundly in a bathtub is an invaluable life skill.

Old alums talk wistfully about sleeping on the floor on a road trip and being a better person for it. Fast forward multiple decades and everyone gripes about having to sleep in dorm beds at reunion and sharing bathrooms. Where's the pioneering spirit?

billhoward

Trotsky

KeithK
Hotel rooms aren't that expensive if you split the cost six or eight ways. Sure, you might end up sleeping on the floor but there are worse things.

It builds esprit du corps. When I was an undergrad (shakes cane) the first time we went on the Harvard trip we split a hotel room with 2 queen beds between 8 kids, a guinea pig, and a birthday cake. Learning to sleep soundly in a bathtub is an invaluable life skill.

Old alums talk wistfully about sleeping on the floor on a road trip and being a better person for it. Fast forward multiple decades and everyone gripes about having to sleep in dorm beds at reunion and sharing bathrooms. Where's the pioneering spirit?

So, which of you is volunteering to sleep in the bathtub next weekend?

Kyle Rose
So, which of you is volunteering to sleep in the bathtub next weekend?

A lot of stuff that was fun at 19 is not fun at 50.

Trotsky

Kyle Rose
So, which of you is volunteering to sleep in the bathtub next weekend?

A lot of stuff that was fun at 19 is not fun at 50.

Or at 38. So, my point exactly. I'll be driving 1½ hours back to my family's lake house after Friday's game rather than stick around to enjoy the atmosphere while spending $3xx on a hotel room. I miss Albany already.

When the ECAC tournament was in Boston, we stayed at our fraternity's chapter at MIT or at the apartment of a frat brother who graduated a year or two before. For the NCAA's in Providence in 1980, we stayed at the chapter at URI. Not an option in LP.

For the record, I'm at the Econolodge.

Kyle Rose
I'll be driving 1½ hours back to my family's lake house after Friday's game rather than stick around to enjoy the atmosphere while spending $3xx on a hotel room. I miss Albany already.

#firstworldproblems

Kyle Rose

billhoward

Trotsky

KeithK
Hotel rooms aren't that expensive if you split the cost six or eight ways. Sure, you might end up sleeping on the floor but there are worse things.

It builds esprit du corps. When I was an undergrad (shakes cane) the first time we went on the Harvard trip we split a hotel room with 2 queen beds between 8 kids, a guinea pig, and a birthday cake. Learning to sleep soundly in a bathtub is an invaluable life skill.

Old alums talk wistfully about sleeping on the floor on a road trip and being a better person for it. Fast forward multiple decades and everyone gripes about having to sleep in dorm beds at reunion and sharing bathrooms. Where's the pioneering spirit?

So, which of you is volunteering to sleep in the bathtub next weekend?

Buy me a plane ticket to get to and from LP and I'll happily sleep on the floor.

Robb

Kyle Rose
I'll be driving 1½ hours back to my family's lake house after Friday's game rather than stick around to enjoy the atmosphere while spending $3xx on a hotel room. I miss Albany already.

#firstworldproblems

Is it really unjustified whining to express disappointment that I won't get to stick around and party with my fellow fans? I don't really think I'm being unreasonable.

Albany had everything a fan could ask for from a practical standpoint: central location, lots of bars and restaurants, and—most importantly—plenty of cheap hotels within walking distance. I don't understand the appeal of LP: it's remote, it's expensive, and the nostalgia of the 1980 Olympics wears off in about 10 minutes. The things that matter to this hockey fan are best served by hosting it in Albany. Albany may not be quaint or historic, but it's sure as hell convenient for the fans.

Kyle Rose
Albany had everything a fan could ask for from a practical standpoint: central location, lots of bars and restaurants, and—most importantly—plenty of cheap hotels within walking distance. I don't understand the appeal of LP: it's remote, it's expensive, and the nostalgia of the 1980 Olympics wears off in about 10 minutes. The things that matter to this hockey fan are best served by hosting it in Albany. Albany may not be quaint or historic, but it's sure as hell convenient for the fans.

Where have I heard this before?

I love LP and I hated Albany when we first moved there and whined about it a lot, but after we got an established tradition going it was actually fun and it was much more convenient. It is probably the best overall site for the tourney unless you have a real hard-on for ski resorts (which I do).

It wouldn't feel like New York if people weren't whining. It's part of why I return again and again -- the nostalgia of entitlement.

Trotsky
It's part of why I return again and again -- the nostalgia of entitlement.

I understand you're joking, but there's a kernel of indictment there that I think is unjustified. The ECAC wants fans to go to this thing, but it has to deal with the same reality that (I think?) we've agreed is affecting Lynah attendance and attention: people have other choices, including TV versions of said game, as well as competing forms of entertainment. I think shagwell ("Yeah, baby... yeah!!" ) may be attempting to recreate the glory years, such as they were, of post-HE ECAC tournament attendance, but I suspect he'll find that Placid had the best numbers despite its location, not because of it. Making it as easy as possible for the fans to justify a weekend spent watching hockey is going to put the most asses in seats as is possible, all other things being equal.

As much as I bitched about the seediness and banality of Atlantic City, the problem there wasn't cheap lodging (it had plenty) or things to do (plenty of restaurants and "entertainment" ), but rather the location: it was terribly inconvenient to get to for most of the fan base. Placid isn't quite as bad as AC in that regard, but it has the lodging issue to contend with. I would not be shocked to see 2007-2009-levels of attendance at Placid this year.

Throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks is not how good businesses operate.

Kyle Rose
As much as I bitched about the seediness and banality of Atlantic City, the problem there wasn't cheap lodging (it had plenty) or things to do (plenty of restaurants and "entertainment" )...

Actually, I found AC to have overpriced lodging, at least within walking distance of the rink. Maybe I didn't know where to look, or maybe my tolerance for fleabag has decreased over the years, but I could never find anything at all acceptable for less than $125 or so "downtown." LP's lodging may be overpriced too, but you can't beat the atmosphere outside your rented door.

Regarding activities and entertainment, AC did indeed have plenty of restaurants, but the entertainment it had only fit the bill of two kinds of people—gamblers and shoppers. (Well, and perhaps patrons of adult nightclubs.) LP has a good number of bars and restaurants, and the activities available are more "becoming" (i.e., less seedy) and "appropriate" (i.e., winter-oriented) for a hockey tournament between college institutions of reasonable repute.

All that being said, I sympathize with you regarding Albany. It was the right place to hold the tournament. I'll enjoy the tournament in LP just fine—perhaps a bit more than in Albany—but I enjoyed it there too.

Kyle Rose

Trotsky
It's part of why I return again and again -- the nostalgia of entitlement.

I understand you're joking, but there's a kernel of indictment there that I think is unjustified.

I was joking.

I really want this tournament to be a success (and for us to dominate it). Although I personally love LP I know it's not for everyone. The Kids Today especially are probably not going to resonate with a place whose charm is aesthetic and tranquil. That doesn't appeal to most 20-somethings in any period, and particularly not in an age of, how shall I put this politely?, shallow, solipsistic, five-second attention spanned addiction to the masturbation of personal electronics and the idiocy of consumerism.

For all these reasons the tourney should eventually find a permanent home in Albany, and the league office should figure out whatever combination of bribery and intimidation it takes to make that happen. There is no other serious candidate: the other cities anyway near the geographic center of the conference (Syracuse, Worcester, Bridgeport, New Haven, Hartford) are even worse shit holes. New York City is just too much for the pearl-clutching set to contemplate, and Boston's out unless BU and BC are destroyed by a massive outbreak of Southie gonorrhea.

Throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks is not how good businesses operate.

This is unfortunate, because the gorillas from American Tourister have been running the ECAC since the mid-80s.

Trotsky
For all these reasons the tourney should eventually find a permanent home in Albany, and the league office should figure out whatever combination of bribery and intimidation it takes to make that happen.

Simply require all the "fans" who buy season tickets at Union and RPI to buy the damn tickets in Albany. They are the reason that attendance dwindled. I'm ashamed at the turn out. We'll see how the regional does when it returns in 2016.

Scersk '97
Actually, I found AC to have overpriced lodging, at least within walking distance of the rink. Maybe I didn't know where to look, or maybe my tolerance for fleabag has decreased over the years, but I could never find anything at all acceptable for less than $125 or so "downtown."

$125 *is* cheap. Have you seen the prices in LP? I can't find a hotel for less than $230/night. Not that I'm looking terribly hard, mind you, but it was almost trivial to find a place ~$100/night in both Albany and AC. If you were willing to drive all of 5 minutes outside of AC (or maybe take the Jitney, I don't know), you could get a place for $80/night.

Kyle Rose

Robb

Kyle Rose
I'll be driving 1½ hours back to my family's lake house after Friday's game rather than stick around to enjoy the atmosphere while spending $3xx on a hotel room. I miss Albany already.

#firstworldproblems

Is it really unjustified whining to express disappointment that I won't get to stick around and party with my fellow fans? I don't really think I'm being unreasonable.

I was joking, too. The only reason it even came to mind was because you had to return to your lake house - if you'd said "dumpy apartment in Albany" instead...

I believe I saw every game Cornell played in Placid from 1996-2001 except the 1998 play-in game, and I've only ever spent one night in Placid (I was living in VT at the time), so I actually feel your pain much more than you're aware - driving home after the game instead of sticking around to celebrate, reminisce, and contemplate possibilities with your fellow fans does indeed suck.

Robb

Kyle Rose

Robb

Kyle Rose
I'll be driving 1½ hours back to my family's lake house after Friday's game rather than stick around to enjoy the atmosphere while spending $3xx on a hotel room. I miss Albany already.

#firstworldproblems

Is it really unjustified whining to express disappointment that I won't get to stick around and party with my fellow fans? I don't really think I'm being unreasonable.

I was joking, too. The only reason it even came to mind was because you had to return to your lake house - if you'd said "dumpy apartment in Albany" instead...

I believe I saw every game Cornell played in Placid from 1996-2001 except the 1998 play-in game, and I've only ever spent one night in Placid (I was living in VT at the time), so I actually feel your pain much more than you're aware - driving home after the game instead of sticking around to celebrate, reminisce, and contemplate possibilities with your fellow fans does indeed suck.

But it's better than TV, or AmericaOne.

.....be careful of the N2O fumes, though.

Robb
I was joking, too. The only reason it even came to mind was because you had to return to your lake house - if you'd said "dumpy apartment in Albany" instead...

Point taken. Though the house is basically a pumpkin during the winter, because of how remote it is and how cold it is up there. I think I've spent a grand total of 5 winter days up there over the last 5 years. Brrrr. Lake houses are a lot more interesting when the lake is usable. (Somewhat paradoxically, Lake George doesn't typically freeze that far north, even in a winter as cold as this one, so I can't even drive on it or ice skate: I think this has to do with water movement, as Lake George is basically a really slow-moving river, and as it narrows to the north, it flows fast enough to keep ice from forming.)

Kyle Rose

Robb
I was joking, too. The only reason it even came to mind was because you had to return to your lake house - if you'd said "dumpy apartment in Albany" instead...

Point taken. Though the house is basically a pumpkin during the winter, because of how remote it is and how cold it is up there. I think I've spent a grand total of 5 winter days up there over the last 5 years. Brrrr. Lake houses are a lot more interesting when the lake is usable. (Somewhat paradoxically, Lake George doesn't typically freeze that far north, even in a winter as cold as this one, so I can't even drive on it or ice skate: I think this has to do with water movement, as Lake George is basically a really slow-moving river, and as it narrows to the north, it flows fast enough to keep ice from forming.)

Even fuller disclosure - my family has a non-winterized house on Owasco Lake, too.

Trotsky
the other cities anyway near the geographic center of the conference (Syracuse, Worcester, Bridgeport, New Haven, Hartford) are even worse shit holes.

I presume you've left out Rochester because it's outside the geographic footprint of the conference, and not because it's not a shit hole. (Although it does have a Dinosaur Bar-B-Que about a block from the rink.)

jtwcornell91

Trotsky
the other cities anyway near the geographic center of the conference (Syracuse, Worcester, Bridgeport, New Haven, Hartford) are even worse shit holes.

I presume you've left out Rochester because it's outside the geographic footprint of the conference, and not because it's not a shit hole. (Although it does have a Dinosaur Bar-B-Que about a block from the rink.)

I've never been there; I've heard it's a great city. It is outside the league footprint unless we finally grab RIT.

jtwcornell91

Trotsky
the other cities anyway near the geographic center of the conference (Syracuse, Worcester, Bridgeport, New Haven, Hartford) are even worse shit holes.

I presume you've left out Rochester because it's outside the geographic footprint of the conference, and not because it's not a shit hole. (Although it does have a Dinosaur Bar-B-Que about a block from the rink.)

There's currently a bit of a conflict, as Atlantic Hockey has been holding their semis and finals at Blue Cross Arena pretty much since RIT joined the league (2007, I think).

Providence is a terrific city and is inside the ECACH "footprint."

Kyle Rose
I think shagwell ("Yeah, baby... yeah!!" ) may be attempting to recreate the glory years, such as they were, of post-HE ECAC tournament attendance, but I suspect he'll find that Placid had the best numbers despite its location, not because of it. Making it as easy as possible for the fans to justify a weekend spent watching hockey is going to put the most asses in seats as is possible, all other things being equal.

Just to riff on this a little, based on the quotes I've seen in articles about this I get the feeling that the league office is trying to capture the sense that this is a weekend event worth attending for the atmosphere, because just the hockey wasn't getting enough fans to the gate towards the end even in Albany. I don't think it'll work, I just think that might be what they're going for here.

Back in the mid 90s you could make the case that Placid's location helped attendance because Clarkson, SLU, and UVM were three of the top teams in the league. However, without UVM (and Martin St. Louis) in the ECAC there's pretty much no way you can justify Lake Placid over Albany using reasonable multi-year attendance projections, because the only fan bases that might find LP convenient are the ones actually living in the North Country. Do you want to bet your gate on getting 2 of Clarkson, SLU, and Cornell to the league championship weekend? At least in Albany you only really need Cornell to get a decent gate.

And that's the real problem - even in Albany, you still need Cornell to get there to get fans to show up. I suspect the key to consistently good attendance numbers is to attract the casual alum, and the only way you get the casual alumni fans to show up for an ECAC weekend is to host it in a convenient location in a city where a decent number of them actually live. Going to the far opposite extreme of Lake Placid is not going to help, but it may well be that Albany is not so far from LP on the attendance spectrum because the activation energy for the average casual fan is just too high.

(edit - of course, since Albany should have a fair number of casual fans from RPI/Union, and they didn't show up, well, maybe the league is just doomed to low attendance)

got to admit i really liked going to boston.

I'm one of the people who was actually pretty happy when I heard the championship weekend was moving back to Lake Placid. I had gone in '96 and '97 and thought I'd be just as likely to follow the team to lake Placid as I had been to follow them to Albany. I made it to Albany all six years we played there. (Living in Ithaca, it wasn't very tough to do.) Yet the reality of the situation is that I'm sitting here less than 48 hours before the semi-final game annoyed that I'm not making the trip to Lake Placid. A number of factors came into play, and I applaud those of you who are making the trip. It's definitely not easy. My frustration is due in large part to the knowledge that were the game in Albany, I would have found a way to make it work, but Lake Placid proved just a bit too difficult. So while I think Lake Placid is a great place, and the history of the Olympic rink is very special, I guess I would have to say I'm now in the camp that would like to see the championship weekend back in Albany.

Boston Was & is my favorite ECAC tournament site. But, I understand the reality that the Conference has fewer Boston-area schools these days and attendance will never be what it was back in the 60's & 70's. While Boston is a bit of a longer drive (than LP), it has so much more to offer when one get there. But.......

Given the reality that Boston is now out of the picture, I do believe it should settle back into Albany. The travel element is just so overwhelmingly easier for most of the league's fans. We actually attended the tournament in years that Cornell did not go. A bit of a bummer. But, still a fun thing to do on a March weekend and a less-than 3 hour easy drive. We have never done that at any other site. Are you listening ECAC?

What does the ECAC need to do? Stop bouncing this tournament around to different sites! I'm sure they're getting nice incentives from each site to move there. Whoopee!! Stop bouncing around & looking foolish. Focus on the best/logical site (Albany) and MAKE IT WORK!!

It seemed to me that, each year, the festivous atmosphere surrounding the tournament in Albany shrunk. What the hell is that???? It almost appeared that the committment to Albany had disappeared, so "let's get this over with!"

redice
It seemed to me that, each year, the festivous atmosphere surrounding the tournament in Albany shrunk. What the hell is that???? It almost appeared that the committment to Albany had disappeared, so "let's get this over with!"

I think that the blizzard in 2007 really hurt the street vendors to the point that many gave up on this tournament. It is funny that I would have guessed the blizzard was in 2008 or 2009 but a quick search showed storm information for 2007. My long standing (suffering) hockey partner, my wife Janice, opted out of the Saturday games as we almost didn't make it home on Friday.

I think once boston left the equation none of the others really has any draw for people outside of watching their team play. i knew a bunch of people who got the "better half" to go to boston but while they may go to LP once it wont happen every year. I think they should go back to albany and do LP like every 4th year.

If they hold on one spot the thing will put down roots. People will have their favorite bar, restaurant, hotel. The memories of prior years will help push people on the fence into going in subsequent years. The upperclassmen will be able to show the underclassmen around.

That was already happening with Albany. The first year was a headache -- nobody knew where to stay, parking for the games was a clusterfuck, there were no common landmarks to draw people together so the crowd was atomized. Within a few years the logistics were solved, and by the end of the time there was actually something resembling a tradition being built.

I love LP, but I hope this is its last hurrah. My first preference would be to try to make NYC work. The Ivies alone probably have 100k alumni in the city, there are an infinite number of attractions, it is not badly situated, and there is mass transit from everywhere to drag busloads of the little numbnuts in for a weekend of debauchery. If that's just too scary for the league (spoiler: it is) then sign a 99-year agreement with Albany and end the churn.

Trotsky
My first preference would be to try to make NYC work. The Ivies alone probably have 100k alumni in the city, there are an infinite number of attractions, it is not badly situated, and there is mass transit from everywhere to drag busloads of the little numbnuts in for a weekend of debauchery. If that's just too scary for the league (spoiler: it is) then sign a 99-year agreement with Albany and end the churn.

OBVIOUSLY this appeals to me. Might be some serious hotel sticker shock though.

ugarte

Trotsky
My first preference would be to try to make NYC work. The Ivies alone probably have 100k alumni in the city, there are an infinite number of attractions, it is not badly situated, and there is mass transit from everywhere to drag busloads of the little numbnuts in for a weekend of debauchery. If that's just too scary for the league (spoiler: it is) then sign a 99-year agreement with Albany and end the churn.

OBVIOUSLY this appeals to me. Might be some serious hotel sticker shock though.

People would have to readjust their expectations (and willingness to pay) from a hockey tournament to a weekend in NYC with hockey fan friends. I don't particularly like NYC, but the place sells itself when it comes to great things to do. The absence of the consy would open up the whole Saturday for adventuring, and I can't even imagine what 15k bar-hopping fans would be like (I actually can't imagine it -- I assume when dropped into the soup of NYC nightlife they wouldn't even register.)

If shaped and led by a very strong effort by the NYC alumni associations of the members, it could be a Destination Event, something it has not been since it left Boston. I suspect HYP and Cornell could lay out a great spread using decimal dust from their budgets, and there are probably alumni orgs for every other ECAC member in NYC.

Trotsky
I don't particularly like NYC, but the place sells itself when it comes to great things to do. The absence of the consy would open up the whole Saturday for adventuring, and I can't even imagine what 15k bar-hopping fans would be like (I actually can't imagine it -- I assume when dropped into the soup of NYC nightlife they wouldn't even register.)

Come on, you can admit it. You like NYC.

This will be good for you. Look at a mirror and say "I like a thing." You'll actually find it liberating.

The tournament should be where most of the fans are - the greater NY area. The attendance for the MSG games with Cornell, and Harvard-Yale, were several times the recent ECAC semi/finals numbers. How bout MSG, Barclays, Izod, or Nassau Colliseum?

One way to get around the housing shortage in LP is to rent a house. This way a big group of students can stay together, have all the convenience of a frat house and party afterwards. Many are very close to the rink. All the hotels are booked and were going at about $400/night. The ECAC staff apparently booked 1/2 of the Marriott. Union is the closest school and there are several buses but I wonder if they are more local fans. This week is exam week at Union ending friday so you will probably have more Union students in Cancun than LP.

ugarte

Trotsky
I don't particularly like NYC, but the place sells itself when it comes to great things to do. The absence of the consy would open up the whole Saturday for adventuring, and I can't even imagine what 15k bar-hopping fans would be like (I actually can't imagine it -- I assume when dropped into the soup of NYC nightlife they wouldn't even register.)

Come on, you can admit it. You like NYC.

This will be good for you. Look at a mirror and say "I like a thing." You'll actually find it liberating.

I like pie.

I'll just think of NYC as a gigantic pie made of whining, entitled, hyper-aggressive dbags, that smells like urine...

By God, it worked!!!

Kyle Rose
Throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks is not how good businesses operate.

Said it before, will say it again ... Attendance is going to be bad pretty much no matter where they put it. Might as well put it in a place with prestige. The attendance in LP won't be any worse than any other location, so it belies your point about it being so difficult to get to. The prestige factor matters to coaches because it matters to players and recruits, which is good for the league as a whole. Players all rave about going there. That's really all you need to know about why it's the best choice. If it inconveniences some fans - then that's a price they're willing to pay, and I don't blame them. It can be watched on TV. No one used to blink about driving 6 hrs from Ithaca to Boston.

Also - it's not Hagwell's choice on where to go. The schools decide. And I can tell you, Cornell was a big factor - though I think its first choice was Albany.

Trotsky
I love LP, but I hope this is its last hurrah. My first preference would be to try to make NYC work. The Ivies alone probably have 100k alumni in the city, there are an infinite number of attractions, it is not badly situated, and there is mass transit from everywhere to drag busloads of the little numbnuts in for a weekend of debauchery. If that's just too scary for the league (spoiler: it is) then sign a 99-year agreement with Albany and end the churn.

It's not that it's scary - they've looked into it - some wanted it real bad. But it's not feasible - from the standpoint of scheduling, money, TV - anything. Just won't happen.

I'll vote for NYC.

But seriously, how many times do we need to have this discussion?

ugarte

Trotsky
My first preference would be to try to make NYC work. The Ivies alone probably have 100k alumni in the city, there are an infinite number of attractions, it is not badly situated, and there is mass transit from everywhere to drag busloads of the little numbnuts in for a weekend of debauchery. If that's just too scary for the league (spoiler: it is) then sign a 99-year agreement with Albany and end the churn.

OBVIOUSLY this appeals to me. Might be some serious hotel sticker shock though.

I call BS. For a three week period around the Superbowl, I checked Hotels Tonight daily, and was always able to find a 3-star hotel in Midtown for under $110. That includes Superbowl weekend. People just need to know where to look.

adamw

Kyle Rose
Throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks is not how good businesses operate.

Said it before, will say it again ... Attendance is going to be bad pretty much no matter where they put it. Might as well put it in a place with prestige. The attendance in LP won't be any worse than any other location, so it belies your point about it being so difficult to get to. The prestige factor matters to coaches because it matters to players and recruits, which is good for the league as a whole. Players all rave about going there. That's really all you need to know about why it's the best choice. If it inconveniences some fans - then that's a price they're willing to pay, and I don't blame them. It can be watched on TV. No one used to blink about driving 6 hrs from Ithaca to Boston.

Also - it's not Hagwell's choice on where to go. The schools decide. And I can tell you, Cornell was a big factor - though I think its first choice was Albany.

I understand that it's the school's choice, but why don't they ever do a poll of the fans from each school. See where they would prefer. Sure it would cost some money, but not much. Sure, it wouldn't identify, for sure, those fans that would actually attend. But I'm also sure that a school like Quinnipiac, which has done many polls and has a polling institute, could design one that would be reasonably accurate.

adamw

Kyle Rose
Throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks is not how good businesses operate.

Said it before, will say it again ... Attendance is going to be bad pretty much no matter where they put it. Might as well put it in a place with prestige. The attendance in LP won't be any worse than any other location, so it belies your point about it being so difficult to get to. The prestige factor matters to coaches because it matters to players and recruits, which is good for the league as a whole. Players all rave about going there. That's really all you need to know about why it's the best choice. If it inconveniences some fans - then that's a price they're willing to pay, and I don't blame them. It can be watched on TV. No one used to blink about driving 6 hrs from Ithaca to Boston.

Also - it's not Hagwell's choice on where to go. The schools decide. And I can tell you, Cornell was a big factor - though I think its first choice was Albany.

So all the other ADs voted against Andy?

Jim Hyla

adamw

Kyle Rose
Throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks is not how good businesses operate.

Said it before, will say it again ... Attendance is going to be bad pretty much no matter where they put it. Might as well put it in a place with prestige. The attendance in LP won't be any worse than any other location, so it belies your point about it being so difficult to get to. The prestige factor matters to coaches because it matters to players and recruits, which is good for the league as a whole. Players all rave about going there. That's really all you need to know about why it's the best choice. If it inconveniences some fans - then that's a price they're willing to pay, and I don't blame them. It can be watched on TV. No one used to blink about driving 6 hrs from Ithaca to Boston.

Also - it's not Hagwell's choice on where to go. The schools decide. And I can tell you, Cornell was a big factor - though I think its first choice was Albany.

I understand that it's the school's choice, but why don't they ever do a poll of the fans from each school. See where they would prefer. Sure it would cost some money, but not much. Sure, it wouldn't identify, for sure, those fans that would actually attend. But I'm also sure that a school like Quinnipiac, which has done many polls and has a polling institute, could design one that would be reasonably accurate.

If it's about the fans, that would be worth doing but I get the sense the fans are secondary. The event is for the league, schools, and players first. The thinking seems to be that if the players love the venue and event then it will help recruiting good players going forward. In that regard I completely understand how LP is way more attractive than anywhere else considered. If only 4,000 fans show up no matter what, it means little to the league whether they are the 4,000 fans willing to go to LP or the 4,000 willing to go to AC even if there's little to no overlap. And as Adam says, the players love LP. So for the foreseeable future, the games are in LP and on TV for the many thousands of fans for whom the location is inconvenient. I'm sure the players would love to play in Albany or Worcester or Hartford if the building were filled to capacity but since no building is going to be full, LP is the best experience for them. Short of maybe New York, Boston, or possibly Newark or Bridgeport the ECAC championship isn't filling arenas and since Boston and NY are off the table, it's a question of whether you could get sufficient fans to Newark or Bridgeport to make the experience better for the league and its players. I doubt you can.

Chris '03

Jim Hyla

adamw

Kyle Rose
Throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks is not how good businesses operate.

Said it before, will say it again ... Attendance is going to be bad pretty much no matter where they put it. Might as well put it in a place with prestige. The attendance in LP won't be any worse than any other location, so it belies your point about it being so difficult to get to. The prestige factor matters to coaches because it matters to players and recruits, which is good for the league as a whole. Players all rave about going there. That's really all you need to know about why it's the best choice. If it inconveniences some fans - then that's a price they're willing to pay, and I don't blame them. It can be watched on TV. No one used to blink about driving 6 hrs from Ithaca to Boston.

Also - it's not Hagwell's choice on where to go. The schools decide. And I can tell you, Cornell was a big factor - though I think its first choice was Albany.

I understand that it's the school's choice, but why don't they ever do a poll of the fans from each school. See where they would prefer. Sure it would cost some money, but not much. Sure, it wouldn't identify, for sure, those fans that would actually attend. But I'm also sure that a school like Quinnipiac, which has done many polls and has a polling institute, could design one that would be reasonably accurate.

If it's about the fans, that would be worth doing but I get the sense the fans are secondary. The event is for the league, schools, and players first. The thinking seems to be that if the players love the venue and event then it will help recruiting good players going forward. In that regard I completely understand how LP is way more attractive than anywhere else considered. If only 4,000 fans show up no matter what, it means little to the league whether they are the 4,000 fans willing to go to LP or the 4,000 willing to go to AC even if there's little to no overlap. And as Adam says, the players love LP. So for the foreseeable future, the games are in LP and on TV for the many thousands of fans for whom the location is inconvenient. I'm sure the players would love to play in Albany or Worcester or Hartford if the building were filled to capacity but since no building is going to be full, LP is the best experience for them. Short of maybe New York, Boston, or possibly Newark or Bridgeport the ECAC championship isn't filling arenas and since Boston and NY are off the table, it's a question of whether you could get sufficient fans to Newark or Bridgeport to make the experience better for the league and its players. I doubt you can.

I can see the players liking it a lot and enjoying playing there. It is obvious that the league and some of the coaches are trying to pass LP as a recruiting tool. However, I wonder how much it really effects recruiting. I just can't see a player thinking: "Well, BC wants me bad and so does Cornell. But dang I could play at Lake Placid if my Cornell teams(s) makes it to the ECAC's. Yeah, definitely CU. LP here I come!"

I think the decision of where to host is all about where the ECAC can make, or most likely lose the least, amount of money. Everything else that that is claimed as the reasons is just cover-up material.

MattS

Chris '03

Jim Hyla

adamw

Kyle Rose
Throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks is not how good businesses operate.

Said it before, will say it again ... Attendance is going to be bad pretty much no matter where they put it. Might as well put it in a place with prestige. The attendance in LP won't be any worse than any other location, so it belies your point about it being so difficult to get to. The prestige factor matters to coaches because it matters to players and recruits, which is good for the league as a whole. Players all rave about going there. That's really all you need to know about why it's the best choice. If it inconveniences some fans - then that's a price they're willing to pay, and I don't blame them. It can be watched on TV. No one used to blink about driving 6 hrs from Ithaca to Boston.

Also - it's not Hagwell's choice on where to go. The schools decide. And I can tell you, Cornell was a big factor - though I think its first choice was Albany.

I understand that it's the school's choice, but why don't they ever do a poll of the fans from each school. See where they would prefer. Sure it would cost some money, but not much. Sure, it wouldn't identify, for sure, those fans that would actually attend. But I'm also sure that a school like Quinnipiac, which has done many polls and has a polling institute, could design one that would be reasonably accurate.

If it's about the fans, that would be worth doing but I get the sense the fans are secondary. The event is for the league, schools, and players first. The thinking seems to be that if the players love the venue and event then it will help recruiting good players going forward. In that regard I completely understand how LP is way more attractive than anywhere else considered. If only 4,000 fans show up no matter what, it means little to the league whether they are the 4,000 fans willing to go to LP or the 4,000 willing to go to AC even if there's little to no overlap. And as Adam says, the players love LP. So for the foreseeable future, the games are in LP and on TV for the many thousands of fans for whom the location is inconvenient. I'm sure the players would love to play in Albany or Worcester or Hartford if the building were filled to capacity but since no building is going to be full, LP is the best experience for them. Short of maybe New York, Boston, or possibly Newark or Bridgeport the ECAC championship isn't filling arenas and since Boston and NY are off the table, it's a question of whether you could get sufficient fans to Newark or Bridgeport to make the experience better for the league and its players. I doubt you can.

I can see the players liking it a lot and enjoying playing there. It is obvious that the league and some of the coaches are trying to pass LP as a recruiting tool. However, I wonder how much it really effects recruiting. I just can't see a player thinking: "Well, BC wants me bad and so does Cornell. But dang I could play at Lake Placid if my Cornell teams(s) makes it to the ECAC's. Yeah, definitely CU. LP here I come!"

I think the decision of where to host is all about where the ECAC can make, or most likely lose the least, amount of money. Everything else that that is claimed as the reasons is just cover-up material.

Well, look, if BC is going hard after a guy with the sales pitch that they might very likely win one or two national championships while the guy is there, then LP isn't going to too much of a selling point. As a pot-sweetener to help decide between Cornell and, say, Maine or Ohio State or Miami, it could possibly be a factor. In other words, LP is a nice cherry on top, but it's not the sundae itself.

Josh '99

MattS

Chris '03

Jim Hyla

adamw

Kyle Rose
Throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks is not how good businesses operate.

Said it before, will say it again ... Attendance is going to be bad pretty much no matter where they put it. Might as well put it in a place with prestige. The attendance in LP won't be any worse than any other location, so it belies your point about it being so difficult to get to. The prestige factor matters to coaches because it matters to players and recruits, which is good for the league as a whole. Players all rave about going there. That's really all you need to know about why it's the best choice. If it inconveniences some fans - then that's a price they're willing to pay, and I don't blame them. It can be watched on TV. No one used to blink about driving 6 hrs from Ithaca to Boston.

Also - it's not Hagwell's choice on where to go. The schools decide. And I can tell you, Cornell was a big factor - though I think its first choice was Albany.

I understand that it's the school's choice, but why don't they ever do a poll of the fans from each school. See where they would prefer. Sure it would cost some money, but not much. Sure, it wouldn't identify, for sure, those fans that would actually attend. But I'm also sure that a school like Quinnipiac, which has done many polls and has a polling institute, could design one that would be reasonably accurate.

If it's about the fans, that would be worth doing but I get the sense the fans are secondary. The event is for the league, schools, and players first. The thinking seems to be that if the players love the venue and event then it will help recruiting good players going forward. In that regard I completely understand how LP is way more attractive than anywhere else considered. If only 4,000 fans show up no matter what, it means little to the league whether they are the 4,000 fans willing to go to LP or the 4,000 willing to go to AC even if there's little to no overlap. And as Adam says, the players love LP. So for the foreseeable future, the games are in LP and on TV for the many thousands of fans for whom the location is inconvenient. I'm sure the players would love to play in Albany or Worcester or Hartford if the building were filled to capacity but since no building is going to be full, LP is the best experience for them. Short of maybe New York, Boston, or possibly Newark or Bridgeport the ECAC championship isn't filling arenas and since Boston and NY are off the table, it's a question of whether you could get sufficient fans to Newark or Bridgeport to make the experience better for the league and its players. I doubt you can.

I can see the players liking it a lot and enjoying playing there. It is obvious that the league and some of the coaches are trying to pass LP as a recruiting tool. However, I wonder how much it really effects recruiting. I just can't see a player thinking: "Well, BC wants me bad and so does Cornell. But dang I could play at Lake Placid if my Cornell teams(s) makes it to the ECAC's. Yeah, definitely CU. LP here I come!"

I think the decision of where to host is all about where the ECAC can make, or most likely lose the least, amount of money. Everything else that that is claimed as the reasons is just cover-up material.

Well, look, if BC is going hard after a guy with the sales pitch that they might very likely win one or two national championships while the guy is there, then LP isn't going to too much of a selling point. As a pot-sweetener to help decide between Cornell and, say, Maine or Ohio State or Miami, it could possibly be a factor. In other words, LP is a nice cherry on top, but it's not the sundae itself.

I just used BC as an example off the top of my head. I did not mean to imply BC specifically against CU (or any ECAC team). Insert almost any ECAC team and a non-ECAC team in and I still believe my point stands. To use your example, I think if anything LP might be one sprinkle (or jimmie) out of hundreds on the sundae.

MattS
I can see the players liking it a lot and enjoying playing there. It is obvious that the league and some of the coaches are trying to pass LP as a recruiting tool. However, I wonder how much it really effects recruiting. I just can't see a player thinking: "Well, BC wants me bad and so does Cornell. But dang I could play at Lake Placid if my Cornell teams(s) makes it to the ECAC's. Yeah, definitely CU. LP here I come!"

I also wonder about the recruiting effect of LP. Specifically I wonder how much the LP Olympics and Miracle mean to a kid that was born in the mid to late 90's. Sure they've heard about it and the movie helps but the context of those games has to be somewhat lost on someone for whom the Cold War is something out of a textbook.

KeithK

MattS
I can see the players liking it a lot and enjoying playing there. It is obvious that the league and some of the coaches are trying to pass LP as a recruiting tool. However, I wonder how much it really effects recruiting. I just can't see a player thinking: "Well, BC wants me bad and so does Cornell. But dang I could play at Lake Placid if my Cornell teams(s) makes it to the ECAC's. Yeah, definitely CU. LP here I come!"

I also wonder about the recruiting effect of LP. Specifically I wonder how much the LP Olympics and Miracle mean to a kid that was born in the mid to late 90's. Sure they've heard about it and the movie helps but the context of those games has to be somewhat lost on someone for whom the Cold War is something out of a textbook.

For that matter, it probably doesn't mean nearly as much to the roughly half of our players who are from Canada.

Josh '99
For that matter, it probably doesn't mean nearly as much to the roughly half of our players who are from Canada.

Which could be one of the reasons why Schafer's first choice was Albany ant not Lake Placid.

Jim Hyla
I understand that it's the school's choice, but why don't they ever do a poll of the fans from each school. See where they would prefer. Sure it would cost some money, but not much. Sure, it wouldn't identify, for sure, those fans that would actually attend. But I'm also sure that a school like Quinnipiac, which has done many polls and has a polling institute, could design one that would be reasonably accurate.

Age ran a poll here when it was announced two years ago, and people were overwhelmingly in favor of Lake Placid. The people against it are a vocal minority.

Josh '99
For that matter, it probably doesn't mean nearly as much to the roughly half of our players who are from Canada.

I disagree. I almost think it matters more. And that is the jist of my argument.

Look - you're never going to be able to effectively measure the recruiting advantage, whatever it is. No one is delusional enough to think it makes THAT much of a difference. But sometimes, it can. And it may be subtle, cumulative effects - perhaps even sub-conscious.

I always go back to the idea ... some kid in Manitoba hears where the tournaments are located ... "Boston, Detroit, St. Paul" - big NHL arenas. Then -- the ECACs are in .... Albany? Bridgeport? How could it not give a subtle message that the ECAC is second class? I mean, the new WCHA is in Grand Rapids. It's screaming the same thing right now.

Well - that's not the ECAC's fault - it doesn't have a natural place to go. And its schools are smaller and there aren't tons of fans to draw from, so no big arena is clamoring for them to be there.

But if you can say "Lake Placid" is connected to your name, it no longer sends the "second class" message. It's all about branding.

Hey - feel free to disagree if you want - but that's what I believe. And enough of the ECAC schools believed it as well. I don't think money had to do with it in this case. For Atlantic City, it was all about money and a stab in the dark. For this, the money was all relatively the same for all arenas that were in contention -- Albany, Bridgeport, Providence and L.P.

adamw

Jim Hyla
I understand that it's the school's choice, but why don't they ever do a poll of the fans from each school. See where they would prefer. Sure it would cost some money, but not much. Sure, it wouldn't identify, for sure, those fans that would actually attend. But I'm also sure that a school like Quinnipiac, which has done many polls and has a polling institute, could design one that would be reasonably accurate.

Age ran a poll here when it was announced two years ago, and people were overwhelmingly in favor of Lake Placid. The people against it are a vocal minority.

Very scientific!

adamw
Hey - feel free to disagree if you want - but that's what I believe. And enough of the ECAC schools believed it as well. I don't think money had to do with it in this case. For Atlantic City, it was all about money and a stab in the dark. For this, the money was all relatively the same for all arenas that were in contention -- Albany, Bridgeport, Providence and L.P.

Disagree? I do! Thanks for the opportunity.

I think the Conference needs to stop moving it around, pick a spot, and build on it. Moving it around every few years, gives the appearance that they don't know what the hell they're doing. How in the world can they ever hope to have a successful tournament ANYWHERE, if it stays someplace 2-3 years & is gone to supposedly greener pastures. And, with each move, we're told how wonderful this new venue will be for the teams, the fans, blah blah blah. It was bullshit when they blathered that about the first LP iteration (& all venues since) and they'll step up and do the same again. It's getting old. I do believe the real change should be within the Conference office. Get some people who can right the ship!!

adamw

Josh '99
For that matter, it probably doesn't mean nearly as much to the roughly half of our players who are from Canada.

I disagree. I almost think it matters more. And that is the jist of my argument.

Look - you're never going to be able to effectively measure the recruiting advantage, whatever it is. No one is delusional enough to think it makes THAT much of a difference. But sometimes, it can. And it may be subtle, cumulative effects - perhaps even sub-conscious.

I always go back to the idea ... some kid in Manitoba hears where the tournaments are located ... "Boston, Detroit, St. Paul" - big NHL arenas. Then -- the ECACs are in .... Albany? Bridgeport? How could it not give a subtle message that the ECAC is second class? I mean, the new WCHA is in Grand Rapids. It's screaming the same thing right now.

Well - that's not the ECAC's fault - it doesn't have a natural place to go. And its schools are smaller and there aren't tons of fans to draw from, so no big arena is clamoring for them to be there.

But if you can say "Lake Placid" is connected to your name, it no longer sends the "second class" message. It's all about branding.

Hey - feel free to disagree if you want - but that's what I believe. And enough of the ECAC schools believed it as well. I don't think money had to do with it in this case. For Atlantic City, it was all about money and a stab in the dark. For this, the money was all relatively the same for all arenas that were in contention -- Albany, Bridgeport, Providence and L.P.

I agree the branding is better with Lake Placid, but the inconvenience for the fans is the biggest negative. As others have stated NYC would likely be the preferred fan destination (and would certainly eliminate the "second class" concerns), but if that's not feasible, then LP may be the best alternative.

Adam, that's the best reasoning I've heard yet.

Having never been to LP, I supported the idea of LP just because... well, *I* want to see it!
(It's not happening for me this year, but that's another story).

But when we're fighting against the other leagues with tournaments in Boston Garden, Joe Louis Arena, etc, I'd much, much rather say that we're playing in 1980 rink than the Times-Union-Pepsi-Rinkrats-Center.

I live in Boston now, and one of my good friends is a BU fan. (I know, I know). He asked about our tournament- I'd much rather say "Lake Placid" than Albany, or heaven-forfend AC. It makes the ECAC look... kind of classy. Which is cool.

On a side note: I bet a Cornell-BU out-of-conference game at Lake Placid would fill the arena. Especially if the ECAC made a long-term agreement to stay there and put up some kind of "ECAC Champions through the years" banner/plaque somewhere.

BMac
Adam, that's the best reasoning I've heard yet.

Having never been to LP, I supported the idea of LP just because... well, *I* want to see it!
(It's not happening for me this year, but that's another story).

But when we're fighting against the other leagues with tournaments in Boston Garden, Joe Louis Arena, etc, I'd much, much rather say that we're playing in 1980 rink than the Times-Union-Pepsi-Rinkrats-Center.

I live in Boston now, and one of my good friends is a BU fan. (I know, I know). He asked about our tournament- I'd much rather say "Lake Placid" than Albany, or heaven-forfend AC. It makes the ECAC look... kind of classy. Which is cool.

OK, I can see this. I don't have to agree but I can understand the logic.

BMac
On a side note: I bet a Cornell-BU out-of-conference game at Lake Placid would fill the arena. Especially if the ECAC made a long-term agreement to stay there and put up some kind of "ECAC Champions through the years" banner/plaque somewhere.

But this:

I think the novelty and nostalgia factors of Lake Placid are very real but very finite, and I disagree that players born in the '90s wouldn't feel that attraction. These are hockey players we're talking about, and these are two legendary hockey venues in one spot.

But I do feel the novelty is limited, perhaps as much as the novelty of playing at Madison Square Garden. Playing there once was amazing! Every two or three years lets everyone try it. Schedule a game there every year, and I think the fans will rapidly lose interest and stop coming, and then playing there will start to feel like a game against Colgate in Newark.

I loved Boston, and we really made that town ours for the weekend. I loved Lake Placid despite the inconvenient drive and limited lodging, and we got the hang of its quirks. I loved Albany for the convenient drive and great lodging and eatery options, and we really built some habits there. I... went to Atlantic City.

We're on our way back to Lake Placid, and I think we'll have fun there. WE are the attraction. We get to enjoy some good hockey and time with each other. Seems like a good start.

Jim Hyla

adamw

Jim Hyla
I understand that it's the school's choice, but why don't they ever do a poll of the fans from each school. See where they would prefer. Sure it would cost some money, but not much. Sure, it wouldn't identify, for sure, those fans that would actually attend. But I'm also sure that a school like Quinnipiac, which has done many polls and has a polling institute, could design one that would be reasonably accurate.

Age ran a poll here when it was announced two years ago, and people were overwhelmingly in favor of Lake Placid. The people against it are a vocal minority.

Very scientific!

It could be that the poll results were, in part, a gut reaction of "HOORAY IT'S NOT GOING TO BE IN ATLANTIC CITY ANYMORE!!!"

mha
But I do feel the novelty is limited, perhaps as much as the novelty of playing at Madison Square Garden. Playing there once was amazing! Every two or three years lets everyone try it. Schedule a game there every year, and I think the fans will rapidly lose interest and stop coming, and then playing there will start to feel like a game against Colgate in Newark.

I'm a staunch New Jersey defender, but I have to say that it would take a LOT of repetition for Lake Placid to start to feel like Newark.

Two old ECAC powers battling it out in an historic rink?
The reminder for fans of both schools of their long ECAC history?
Lake Placid becoming THE place for the ECAC?

What's not to like?

(Obviously it doesn't make sense with BU because of the MSG series. But still.)

So was it a success?

Attendance in LP, from ECAC box scores:

Semis 4337
Finals 4850

Forgetting about AC, the semis were second lowest ever, and the finals were the lowest ever. Anybody think there would have been more in Albany?

Having said that, my wife and I had a good time. In addition to the games and shopping, a nice dinner with Ed Ambis'72, and a member of the '70 team who won in LP. Next year we're coming up on Thursday and leaving sometime Sunday. But that's what you can do when you're semi-retired. Other fans, I'm not so sure.

I was frankly disappointed in the Cornell turnout. There was one small group of students. They were loud and active, but few in number.

Jeff Hopkins '82
I was frankly disappointed in the Cornell turnout. There was one small group of students. They were loud and active, but few in number.

The telephone cheer was a riot. Worth the price of admission alone.

Jeff Hopkins '82
I was frankly disappointed in the Cornell turnout. There was one small group of students. They were loud and active, but few in number.

People barely come to home games anymore.

MattS

Jeff Hopkins '82
I was frankly disappointed in the Cornell turnout. There was one small group of students. They were loud and active, but few in number.

People barely come to home games anymore.

To me, it all comes down to the athletics department administration taking the loyalty and fervor of the Lynah Faithful for granted, and they can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea that fans care about (a) ticket prices and (b) how fun it is to go

imafrshmn

MattS

Jeff Hopkins '82
I was frankly disappointed in the Cornell turnout. There was one small group of students. They were loud and active, but few in number.

People barely come to home games anymore.

To me, it all comes down to the athletics department administration taking the loyalty and fervor of the Lynah Faithful for granted, and they can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea that fans care about (a) ticket prices and (b) how fun it is to go

Here's a question for fans who have been around longer than I have:

Has this (empty seats at Lynah) happened before? It's easy to think that fans have always been rabid, but I could definitely see empty seats during our darker ages.

Kyle Rose

Jeff Hopkins '82
I was frankly disappointed in the Cornell turnout. There was one small group of students. They were loud and active, but few in number.

The telephone cheer was a riot. Worth the price of admission alone.

Agreed. Although there were relatively few the guys in the bottom rows of 22 were a classic exmaple of the Faithful at their best. Now we just need to turn each one into 10.

Dafatone
Here's a question for fans who have been around longer than I have:

Has this (empty seats at Lynah) happened before? It's easy to think that fans have always been rabid, but I could definitely see empty seats during our darker ages.

The last time I am certain there were significant numbers of empty seats in Lynah (besides quarterfinal rounds, which have had their own unique sales problems almost every year we've hosted them) were the dismally catastrophic 1993, 1994, and 1995 seasons. Granted, I've been going to games a lot less frequently in the last few years, so I can't speak to that, but from 1996 up until 2009 or so I don't remember attending a regular season game that wasn't basically packed.

Beeeej

Dafatone
Here's a question for fans who have been around longer than I have:

Has this (empty seats at Lynah) happened before? It's easy to think that fans have always been rabid, but I could definitely see empty seats during our darker ages.

The last time I am certain there were significant numbers of empty seats in Lynah (besides quarterfinal rounds, which have had their own unique sales problems almost every year we've hosted them) were the dismally catastrophic 1993, 1994, and 1995 seasons.

which, of course, is why one of Schafer's three goals in his first season as head coach was to pack Lynah Rink.

if they continue to raise prices every year and the demand stays low the empty seats will continue to grow.

The people who saw the Harvard and Clarkson overtime wins will be back next year. Those are the experiences that turn people into lifelong fans.

upprdeck
if they continue to raise prices every year and the demand stays low the empty seats will continue to grow.

Prices inside the arena for food were horribly high. I found a penny's worth of popcorn for five dollars. Were the hotdogs actually eight dollars? The Chief wanted a cup of coffee. It didn't exist inside the rink.

Overall I liked the experience if not the outcome for Cornell. But the rink is a third rate facility. And this includes the ludicrous three, count em, three urinals in the men's room behind section 24.

(The staff was polite and accommodating.)

The bathrooms were deficient, but I don't think the rink is third rate at all (or if so, what's Lynah -- eighth rate?).

It's a fun place to watch hockey. It's not a contemporary NHL rink, and that's great.

Trotsky
The people who saw the Harvard and Clarkson overtime wins will be back next year. Those are the experiences that turn people into lifelong fans.

My daughter, now a sophomore at Cornell, who has been going to games since she was three weeks old touched on this early in the season. Many of the students she was coming in contact with and trying to get interested in going to games early in the season were expressing interest in going to the Harvard game. These were people that we might call "Facetimers" who had heard about the Harvard game and wanted to go see what that was all about, but otherwise weren't all too interested. Bevi's point early in the season was that it was unfortunate that the Harvard game was the last game this year, because she thought that some of these facetimers would be hooked once they experienced Cornell hockey, but that they wouldn't experience it until the last game of the season.

It would be interesting to see if student attendance is better in years when the Harvard game is earlier in the season, but of course the data would also have to be adjusted for other factors like how well the team is doing, etc. But I could definitely see this being something that affects student attendance.

andyw2100
Bevi's point early in the season was that it was unfortunate that the Harvard game was the last game this year, because she thought that some of these facetimers would be hooked once they experienced Cornell hockey, but that they wouldn't experience it until the last game of the season.

Make the exhibition game free.

andyw2100

Trotsky
The people who saw the Harvard and Clarkson overtime wins will be back next year. Those are the experiences that turn people into lifelong fans.

My daughter, now a sophomore at Cornell, who has been going to games since she was three weeks old touched on this early in the season. Many of the students she was coming in contact with and trying to get interested in going to games early in the season were expressing interest in going to the Harvard game. These were people that we might call "Facetimers" who had heard about the Harvard game and wanted to go see what that was all about, but otherwise weren't all too interested. Bevi's point early in the season was that it was unfortunate that the Harvard game was the last game this year, because she thought that some of these facetimers would be hooked once they experienced Cornell hockey, but that they wouldn't experience it until the last game of the season.

It would be interesting to see if student attendance is better in years when the Harvard game is earlier in the season, but of course the data would also have to be adjusted for other factors like how well the team is doing, etc. But I could definitely see this being something that affects student attendance.

As a resident of southern New England, where seven league opponents are within a two-hour drive (read: I attend a lot of road games), I'd like to offer the observation that undergrads simply don't travel in the numbers that they once did. Through the mid-00s, there was always a good amount of easily identifiable students who would insist on bring the Lynah energy to the road games. That's not really the case anymore, as all the CU sections seems to be comprised of a set of traveling alumni, local Cornell Club members, and the band. I would love to know how many current students actually made the trip this weekend. The group of fans standing by the glass seemed to be in the "recent alumni" category to me, but I'm old enough now to not know the difference by sight. Either way, kudos to them.

As Greg said, that '96-'97 stretch had so much excitement, it was enough to hook a big chunk of us for life. There was a line that formed at the ticket office before it opened when the Lake Placid tickets went on sale. That corner of Herb Brooks Arena was practically filled with students each time we made it to Lake Placid. (Insert appropriate Fuzzy Memory disclaimer).

I know that technology has made it wonderfully easy to watch road games without going through the hassle/expense of driving, lodging, etc. etc. But if students aren't in the habit of even thinking about attending any road games, that's another thing I'm sad to see go, along with having the student section show up in time for warmups the puck drop at home. And if they aren't in the habit of going on regular season roadtrips, then the inertia to resist organizing tournament roadtrip is that much greater.

Yeah, yeah. Yet another "in my day" post from me.

RichH

andyw2100

Trotsky
The people who saw the Harvard and Clarkson overtime wins will be back next year. Those are the experiences that turn people into lifelong fans.

My daughter, now a sophomore at Cornell, who has been going to games since she was three weeks old touched on this early in the season. Many of the students she was coming in contact with and trying to get interested in going to games early in the season were expressing interest in going to the Harvard game. These were people that we might call "Facetimers" who had heard about the Harvard game and wanted to go see what that was all about, but otherwise weren't all too interested. Bevi's point early in the season was that it was unfortunate that the Harvard game was the last game this year, because she thought that some of these facetimers would be hooked once they experienced Cornell hockey, but that they wouldn't experience it until the last game of the season.

It would be interesting to see if student attendance is better in years when the Harvard game is earlier in the season, but of course the data would also have to be adjusted for other factors like how well the team is doing, etc. But I could definitely see this being something that affects student attendance.

As a resident of southern New England, where seven league opponents are within a two-hour drive (read: I attend a lot of road games), I'd like to offer the observation that undergrads simply don't travel in the numbers that they once did. Through the mid-00s, there was always a good amount of easily identifiable students who would insist on bring the Lynah energy to the road games. That's not really the case anymore, as all the CU sections seems to be comprised of a set of traveling alumni, local Cornell Club members, and the band. I would love to know how many current students actually made the trip this weekend. The group of fans standing by the glass seemed to be in the "recent alumni" category to me, but I'm old enough now to not know the difference by sight. Either way, kudos to them.

As Greg said, that '96-'97 stretch had so much excitement, it was enough to hook a big chunk of us for life. There was a line that formed at the ticket office before it opened when the Lake Placid tickets went on sale. That corner of Herb Brooks Arena was practically filled with students each time we made it to Lake Placid. (Insert appropriate Fuzzy Memory disclaimer).

I know that technology has made it wonderfully easy to watch road games without going through the hassle/expense of driving, lodging, etc. etc. But if students aren't in the habit of even thinking about attending any road games, that's another thing I'm sad to see go, along with having the student section show up in time for warmups the puck drop at home. And if they aren't in the habit of going on regular season roadtrips, then the inertia to resist organizing tournament roadtrip is that much greater.

Yeah, yeah. Yet another "in my day" post from me.

Some of us a lot earlier than that. I just think that today's students just aren't into it, for multiple reasons, most of which are good reasons. It's too bad, as it can be a lot of fun. Spending a few hours with Ed Ambis '72 this past weekend was almost worth the price of admission alone. Throw in the fact that one alum came by and told me that her 12 year old son said, when he grows up, he wanted to be the one throwing candy; I went home satisfied.

[espn.go.com]

another good article on student attendance.

underskill
[espn.go.com]

another good article on student attendance.

What this article tells me is that nobody is looking at the experience of the game as something the fans create. The administration looks at it as just another pre-packaged and forced-marketed product, and the students have been trained all their lives to expect that and look for "added value," whatever the fuck that vacuity means.

The sad optic of the student body as a veal fattening pen for future season ticket holders and donors tells you how badly everybody is Missing The Point of fandom. The only wonder is that something so sterile and generic attracts anybody.

Trotsky

andyw2100
Bevi's point early in the season was that it was unfortunate that the Harvard game was the last game this year, because she thought that some of these facetimers would be hooked once they experienced Cornell hockey, but that they wouldn't experience it until the last game of the season.

Make the exhibition game free.

That's an idea. The problem is that the energy and enthusiasm at that game is never what it is for regular season games, so the facetimers' first exposure to Cornell hockey wouldn't be what it might otherwise be.

But improving on your idea...

(And not that either is likely to happen, but...)

The students currently either get or can buy inexpensively some sort of all sports access pass that gets them access to basically all games except men's hockey and playoff games. (I may have these details slightly wrong, but that's the gist of it.) As long as the regular season games are not sold out, and not likely to sell out, why not allow each freshman and transfer student that has this pass the ability to go to exactly one regular season hockey game for free before winter break? If the Harvard game falls before break that year, exclude it. If there aren't enough home games before break for this to work, include the January games. But the idea would be to give them a taste for free, early in the season, in order to encourage attendance later in the season and later in their Cornell careers.

No student that buys season tickets is going to pass on them because they're getting one game free. And I just don't think the ticket office is selling that many single game tickets to students anyway for games other than the big games, which they could just exclude.

What do you think?

Switch to electronic ticket cards instead of tickets. Have a "rush" line. Didn't show up before midway through the 1st? Too bad! You've lost your allotment of bench, which has been resold.

Or just get rid of student season tickets altogether; instead, go GA and lower the price.

GA!

GA!

GA!

A thousand million times, go GA!

BMac
A thousand million times, go GA!

There is a potential problem with GA, and it is rather finely demonstrated by this piece of vintage American art.

Ralph Edgar Date Rape the Third and his frat brothers don't care that you got to section B first because he and 800 lbs of general studies meat "have always sat there."

But if you police it, then yes, this would be a good idea.

Trotsky
But if you police it, then yes, this would be a good idea.

This is the first eLynah comment with the embedded premise that the ushers are insufficiently zealous about rule enforcement.

Very true point. So... make bigger friends?

I received another plea that I buy Frozen Four tickets by email today.

I also have received several Frozen Four - buy tickets now pleas in last couple of months - and the cost to go is much higher then when I took my son out to Milwaukee. I doubt I will make another Frozen Four in the near future.