Harvard 4, Cornell 3, Final

1 - Cornell 1st - 00:31 D'Agostino, Nick (Kary, Jordan & Axell, Erik)

1 - Harvard 1st - 07:28 PP - Killorn, Alex (Huxley, Chris)

2 - Harvard 1st - 15:09 Biega, Michael (Del Mauro, Michael) 4 x 4

2 - Cornell 2nd - 08:55 Devin, Joe (Roeszler, Tyler)

3 - Harvard 2nd - 13:12 PP - Killorn, Alex (Biega, Danny & Moriarty, Daniel)

3 - Cornell 3rd - 08:32 Esposito, John (Nicholls, Dan & Collins, Sean)

4 - Harvard 3rd - 12:39 PP - Biega, Danny (Biega, Michael & Huxley, Chris)

Free Audio

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Another Nichols penalty seven minutes into the first quickly erases the lead.

Dartmouth leading women 1-0; shots 7-1 Dartmouth.

Dartmouth now up 2-0 with shots 12-4

B-ball trails by 11 late first half. Depressing evening so far on all fronts.

Harvard leading men 2-1 after one. After a Harvard major on a hit from behind, Cornell retaliates, draws a minor negating the first two minutes of the power play, and Harvard scores on the four on four. Cornell then fails to score on the remaining three minutes. Good thing this team is "disciplined." Nichols's penalty was a trip behind the Harvard goal. Dumb.

Dartmouth outshooting women 10-0 in the second. Still 2-0.

Another Harvard power play goal. Ah, "discipline."

Jillson is back in the game after taking a bad hit in the first.

Shots

Harvard 13 8 0 21
Cornell 13 6 0 19

4-0 Dartmouth over women; three power play goals.

Tied up and now idiots cost cornell a bench minor.

Idiot Fans! Bench minor on Cornell for fish on the ice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And yet another Harvard power play goal. No fish, either.

BigRedHockeyFan
Idiot Fans! Bench minor on Cornell for fish on the ice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Schafer should offer to play both games at Lynah East next season, a smarter collection of Cornell fans there.

jkahn

BigRedHockeyFan
Idiot Fans! Bench minor on Cornell for fish on the ice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Schafer should offer to play both games at Lynah East next season, a smarter collection of Cornell fans there.

That's a great offer, actually. The few real fans left at Lynah wouldn't have to be subjected to this gutless, undisciplined abortion of a team be incompetent on the power play and even worse on the penalty kill. In time you'll get your wish though, there won't be any "idiot" fans left, and at the away games you can have your 10 person circle jerk. At least you can say you remember when beating Harvard in our own barn meant something.

ScrewBU

jkahn

BigRedHockeyFan
Idiot Fans! Bench minor on Cornell for fish on the ice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Schafer should offer to play both games at Lynah East next season, a smarter collection of Cornell fans there.

That's a great offer, actually. The few real fans left at Lynah wouldn't have to be subjected to this gutless, undisciplined abortion of a team be incompetent on the power play and even worse on the penalty kill. In time you'll get your wish though, there won't be any "idiot" fans left, and at the away games you can have your 10 person circle jerk. At least you can say you remember when beating Harvard in our own barn meant something.

the hell are you talking about?

underskill

ScrewBU

jkahn

BigRedHockeyFan
Idiot Fans! Bench minor on Cornell for fish on the ice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Schafer should offer to play both games at Lynah East next season, a smarter collection of Cornell fans there.

That's a great offer, actually. The few real fans left at Lynah wouldn't have to be subjected to this gutless, undisciplined abortion of a team be incompetent on the power play and even worse on the penalty kill. In time you'll get your wish though, there won't be any "idiot" fans left, and at the away games you can have your 10 person circle jerk. At least you can say you remember when beating Harvard in our own barn meant something.

the hell are you talking about?

Don't feed the Trolls.

underskill

ScrewBU

jkahn

BigRedHockeyFan
Idiot Fans! Bench minor on Cornell for fish on the ice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Schafer should offer to play both games at Lynah East next season, a smarter collection of Cornell fans there.

That's a great offer, actually. The few real fans left at Lynah wouldn't have to be subjected to this gutless, undisciplined abortion of a team be incompetent on the power play and even worse on the penalty kill. In time you'll get your wish though, there won't be any "idiot" fans left, and at the away games you can have your 10 person circle jerk. At least you can say you remember when beating Harvard in our own barn meant something.

the hell are you talking about?

He suggested that Cornell play at Harvard twice because obviously that fan penalty cost us the game. I said, go ahead, it's better for the fans (the ones that are left, anyway) to not have to be subject to a team that is an absolute disgrace. They are literally an embarrassment, even sometimes when they win.

- The power play is horrendous. Forget about shots on goal, they can't even gain the zone and set things up.

- The penalty kill is worse. Just give the other team the goal, it's futile watching them scramble around aimlessly. Do they even practice this, it doesn't look like it. An absolute mess.

- They take penalties in situations that are utterly ridiculous. At RPI, a 5-minute major with less than 5 minutes to play, in the offensive zone, in a tie game, on the road. Just inexcusable.

- They play better on the road than at Lynah. Not going to say any more about that.

- They blow leads like they're a team that can score at will.

- The only time they ever win is to cheat. At RPI they 1) ran the goalie, and 2) took such a ridiculous dive, that the ref that called its career is probably over. That's what it takes for this team to win a game?

This team is going to get steamrolled, some of teams have already figured it out, but just how little this team actually has is really brutal. The only positive thing I can say is that at least we have Isles and Garman. No doubt this team would be in the cellar if it weren't for them.

BigRedHockeyFan
Idiot Fans! Bench minor on Cornell for fish on the ice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, I hope the people (Mike Schafer included) who support this infantile practice are happy....It has cost us another win over Harvard....This loss may cost us a top four finish and a bye in the opening round...That just makes post-season success that much less likely...

It is proof, once again, that you cannot tell the fans that it's okay to throw things on the ice at certain times and/or certain circumstances and NOT okay at other times/circumstances...They are incapable of comprehending it...

A true crackdown is needed....And, I'm not talking about lip service from the administration....

Perhaps these children need to be rewarded by watching all future home games through netting that would cover that whole side of the ice....What, you say you would just go over to the townie's side of the ice to do your dirty work? We how long would it take for the townie's to point out the perpetrator...Not long!!

Tonight, the ushers converged on the area from which the object was thrown...But, didn't seem able to pick out a particular violator....People in that group damned sure knew who through it...So, the ushers should just tell them that they plan to throw out everyone in that area unless someone is able to point out the perp....Watch how fast the squealing begins...

This shit has to stop...The Harvard Hockey team is laughing all the way to their destination tonight...How does that make everyone feel?

redice

BigRedHockeyFan
Idiot Fans! Bench minor on Cornell for fish on the ice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, I hope the people (Mike Schafer included) who support this infantile practice are happy....It has cost us another win over Harvard....

If Schafer's reaction as he left the bench for the locker room was any indication, he certainly wasn't happy with the fans or the fish tonight.

I was sitting right behind the perpetrator. The penalty actually wasn't called for a fish but rather the plastic bottle that followed the fish. The ushers converged, my buddies and I pointed him out, and they did absolutely nothing. One usher talked to the frat boy who threw the bottle but did nothing else. After the final whistle, another usher scolded the offender. He just stood there, three sheets to the wind drunk, with no conception of what he'd done as the fans around him berated him, even starting a "that guy sucks" chant after the fourth Harvard goal, yet the ushers still let him remain in the stands. A total disgrace for the team, the University, and the dedicated and civil fans, townies and students alike.

That shocks me - I know after the penalty the ushers were lined up and ready to go for the next offense across the rink in the aisle between A and B, I'm surprised they didn't boot the guy.

I'm pretty surprised that with fish being a lot harder to smuggle in that anyone would save them beyond the traditional beginning throw.

How could you tell which item of FOD was the cause of the penalty? Bottle or no bottle, we probably would have gotten the penalty for the fish alone. Still, someone who threw a plastic bottle onto the ice should not only have been booted from the game but their season tickets revoked.

The refs didn't actually blow a whistle and signal for a penalty until the bottle came out. The fish was immediately after the goal. The bottle was as the players skated to the bench and that's when the ref called the penalty. There had at least two or three other fish instances previously that the refs let slide. The bottle was a direct shot at the goalie, too. Not 100% sure but that's what the evidence suggests as I saw it.

RobertSchur
I was sitting right behind the perpetrator. The penalty actually wasn't called for a fish but rather the plastic bottle that followed the fish. The ushers converged, my buddies and I pointed him out, and they did absolutely nothing. One usher talked to the frat boy who threw the bottle but did nothing else. After the final whistle, another usher scolded the offender. He just stood there, three sheets to the wind drunk, with no conception of what he'd done as the fans around him berated him, even starting a "that guy sucks" chant after the fourth Harvard goal, yet the ushers still let him remain in the stands. A total disgrace for the team, the University, and the dedicated and civil fans, townies and students alike.

The real disgrace is anyone who claims that that penalty is what "cost us a win."

What did they do when they got they early goal? They gave it right back.

What did they do on the 5 minute major? They gave up a goal on the ensuing 4 on 4, then didn't even get a shot on an unlimited 3 min PP.

This team has major issues. They are not honest, hardworking players. They are sloppy. They don't win battles for the puck. They take cheap shots. They dive. They can't hold a lead. They can't win at Lynah. They're a sham, and blaming it on a drunken frat boy is just dancing around the real, serious problems.

Please win tomorrow. We don't want to take a trip to Lynah if it can be avoided.

Thank you for not feeding the Trolls.

If you are as sick of the fish ordeal as I am, contact the athletics department and tell them that Mike should denounce fish throwing.

Athletic Communications
Director: Jeremy Hartigan
Office Phone: (607) 255-9788
Associate Director: Julie Greco
Office Phone: (607) 255-4688
Assistant Director (men's hockey contact): Kevin Zeise
Office Phone: (607) 255-5627
Home/Cell Phone: (603) 748-1268
Email: kjz3@cornell.edu
Accounts Rep./Admin. Asst.: Marlene Crockford
Phone: (607) 255-3752
Athletic Communications Phone: (607) 255-3752
Lynah Rink Press Box Phone: (607) 255-3533
Office Fax: (607) 255-9791
Hotline: (607) 255-2385
Website: www.CornellBigRed.com
Mailing and Overnight Address:
Athletic Communications Office
Teagle Hall, Campus Road
Ithaca, N.Y. 14853-6501

BigRedHockeyFan
If you are as sick of the fish ordeal as I am, contact the athletics department and tell them that Mike should denounce fish throwing.

Athletic Communications
Director: Jeremy Hartigan
Office Phone: (607) 255-9788
Associate Director: Julie Greco
Office Phone: (607) 255-4688
Assistant Director (men's hockey contact): Kevin Zeise
Office Phone: (607) 255-5627
Home/Cell Phone: (603) 748-1268
Email: kjz3@cornell.edu
Accounts Rep./Admin. Asst.: Marlene Crockford
Phone: (607) 255-3752
Athletic Communications Phone: (607) 255-3752
Lynah Rink Press Box Phone: (607) 255-3533
Office Fax: (607) 255-9791
Hotline: (607) 255-2385
Website: www.CornellBigRed.com
Mailing and Overnight Address:
Athletic Communications Office
Teagle Hall, Campus Road
Ithaca, N.Y. 14853-6501

I agree a complaint needs to be made to the Athletic Department. But not for the fish; rather, because it's time they show Shaffer the door. Shaffer blaming this game on the fans is disingenuous. The fans win Cornell games, and give Cornell perhaps the best home ice advantage in all of college hockey. I couldn't believe it when I read Shaffer's post game comments where he places the blame on the fans. Shame on you.

The loss (to an awful Harvard team) was because of poor coaching, and an undisciplined team. Not the fans. Not the refs.

Will
If Schafer's reaction as he left the bench for the locker room was any indication, he certainly wasn't happy with the fans or the fish tonight.

Good observation...Schafer has gone on record as approving of the fish tradition...So, IMHO, he no right to bitch about it now...He needs to take a stand to stop it!!

I think it's pretty clear that the current crop of children cannot handle the responsibility of know when to throw the fish....Given that, it has to be just stopped!!

The chicken tradition was brought to a halt....There's no reason the fish tradition can't be stopped, as well.

BigRedHockeyFan
If you are as sick of the fish ordeal as I am, contact the athletics department and tell them that Mike should denounce fish throwing.

I find this kind of action and calls for the end of the fish quite short-sighted. If you want Lynah to not be forgotten on lists by the WSJ about the atmosphere, you can't start attacking what makes our barn unique.

The last time the team got a team/bench penalty for delay of game at a home against Harvard was February 1, 2002. So for 9 years the fans weren't "children" and Cornell wasn't adversely affected.

I assume all of you with the holier-than-thou attitude never threw a fish at Lynah. What if it had been newspaper? Should we stop throwing that on the ice as well?

RobertSchur
I was sitting right behind the perpetrator. The penalty actually wasn't called for a fish but rather the plastic bottle that followed the fish. The ushers converged, my buddies and I pointed him out, and they did absolutely nothing. One usher talked to the frat boy who threw the bottle but did nothing else. After the final whistle, another usher scolded the offender. He just stood there, three sheets to the wind drunk, with no conception of what he'd done as the fans around him berated him, even starting a "that guy sucks" chant after the fourth Harvard goal, yet the ushers still let him remain in the stands. A total disgrace for the team, the University, and the dedicated and civil fans, townies and students alike.

That supports what I've been saying for decades...The administration gives lip service to the 'stop the fish' idea..But, they don't truly want to stop it..I used to work there as an usher....I've watched this as an employee & a long-time fan......Given that and Mike Schafer's preference to continue the fish tradition, I would say that Cornell University got exactly what they asked for...Im not sorry for them...I'm mad as hell for me!!! F*cking stupdity!!!

RobertSchur
The refs didn't actually blow a whistle and signal for a penalty until the bottle came out. The fish was immediately after the goal. The bottle was as the players skated to the bench and that's when the ref called the penalty. There had at least two or three other fish instances previously that the refs let slide. The bottle was a direct shot at the goalie, too. Not 100% sure but that's what the evidence suggests as I saw it.

Actually, I have to credit the on-ice officials for their patience...I assume they understand that this is a big rivalry game and granted a little extra leniency for objects being thrown on the ice...

I believe there were 2-3 instances of objects being thrown on the ice (after the initial fish-throw), before the ref called a penalty...I certainly cannot fault the crew on this one.

ScrewBU
The real disgrace is anyone who claims that that penalty is what "cost us a win."

What did they do when they got they early goal? They gave it right back.

What did they do on the 5 minute major? They gave up a goal on the ensuing 4 on 4, then didn't even get a shot on an unlimited 3 min PP.

This team has major issues. They are not honest, hardworking players. They are sloppy. They don't win battles for the puck. They take cheap shots. They dive. They can't hold a lead. They can't win at Lynah. They're a sham, and blaming it on a drunken frat boy is just dancing around the real, serious problems.

It's no secret where I stand on this fish issue. I've been very consistent on that...There's two disgraceful things here:
1) Throwing objects on the ice!! Period!!
2) Accusing these college athletes of NOT BEING HONEST!! What the hell is that all about? Do you know
any of these fine young men? Even if you do, what makes you believe that their honesty is part of this
discussion? Now, that's a disgrace!!!

Tom Tone

BigRedHockeyFan
If you are as sick of the fish ordeal as I am, contact the athletics department and tell them that Mike should denounce fish throwing.

I find this kind of action and calls for the end of the fish quite short-sighted. If you want Lynah to not be forgotten on lists by the WSJ about the atmosphere, you can't start attacking what makes our barn unique.

The last time the team got a team/bench penalty for delay of game at a home against Harvard was February 1, 2002. So for 9 years the fans weren't "children" and Cornell wasn't adversely affected.

I assume all of you with the holier-than-thou attitude never threw a fish at Lynah. What if it had been newspaper? Should we stop throwing that on the ice as well?

For me, I'd rather win hockey games than be on some WSJ list. But, that's just me....

I think that loud fans & home invincibility will put Lynah on far more lists than and fish throwing tradition...Remember, that just one game....They pay 15+ other games at Lynah each year. I would say that fish-throwing doesn't do much for the Lynah image.

If you want "unique", I guess having your fans do things that hurt the home team is pretty unique....

I don't read the USCHO forums any more...But, I'll be we're a laughing stock there this morning...

In terms of the fish - At the very beginning of the game, when Harvard is entering the ice and it is a long time before play starts, a barrage of fish demoralizes them and isn't going to impact the game significantly in terms of delay - there is plenty of time to clean the fish up before play starts. Have the refs ever called a penalty for initial fish throwing? It seems like the refs are prepared to let it slide at the beginning, but it was clear that they were sick of it repeating over and over throughout the game, including in cases where they wanted play to immediately resume.

The problem is that ove the past decade or so the fans at Lynah seem to have developed this "This is awesome! Let's extend it and add more aweseomeness!" attitude with some traditions - The result being that the initial "awesomeness" is greatly reduced in impact (fish-saving) and usually the "extended attempt at awesomeness" is just lame and hurts us (such as puny 3-4 fish throws after goals). Just like the beginning of the death of the Black Hole cheer. When I started as an undergrad (1998), Black Hole ended with a single "You just suck!" punctuated by deafening, unnerving silence. It had IMPACT then. At some point shortly thereafter someone decided to extend it by repeating "You just suck!" over and over again, with no real defined end so it just kind of trailed off. Black Hole lost its impact after that - I don't think I even hear it any more, it seems to have been replaced with the even less effective "mumble mumble mumble mumble mumble mumble You Suck!" cheer coming out of somewhere in B. (If someone sitting almost directly across from you in Section M can't hear you, probably a sieve who has his ears covered with a helmet can't hear you either.)

Just want to clarify that the bench minor was the only Harvard PP that Cornell was able to successfully kill off. So, as stupid as the fans are who threw fish and other objects, that penalty was not the turning point in the game.

Tom Tone
What if it had been newspaper? Should we stop throwing that on the ice as well?

Yes. Throw newspaper up in the air or at each other, but not on the ice. The only things that should ever be allowed to be thrown on the ice should be hats and teddy bears. That being said, as long as these things only happened before the game I don't really care -- assuming the rink is adequately staffed for the clean up.

I think the fish tradition that is supported is that which happens before the game. That's it. There is no other tradition. If a small % of students want to ruin it, then kill the tradition entirely. What makes Lynah special is the hockey combined with the band, the chants, the cheers, the taunts, etc... not the crap thrown on the ice.

Of course, this is the opinion of one STH only.

Andy Dodd
.....a barrage of fish demoralizes them.....

No offense, Andy...But, anyone who could believe that has a misplaced sense of their own importance in the grand scheme of a college hockey game...Some of those Harvard players had smiles on their faces...That belies any indication of being demoralized...

Andy Dodd
.....usually the "extended attempt at awesomeness" is just lame and hurts us.....

Now, there's something upon which we can agree: LAME!!!

ebilmes
Just want to clarify that the bench minor was the only Harvard PP that Cornell was able to successfully kill off. So, as stupid as the fans are who threw fish and other objects, that penalty was not the turning point in the game.

You are overlooking the fact that the bench minor was indeed a momentum changing moment in the game..

ebilmes
Just want to clarify that the bench minor was the only Harvard PP that Cornell was able to successfully kill off. So, as stupid as the fans are who threw fish and other objects, that penalty was not the turning point in the game.

Come on, you're not trying to say that the only turning point can be a goal, are you? Stopping a 2 man advantage or 5 min major can be a turning point. Many, many other non-goal situations can be turning points.

I think the point was we just tied it up, and had some good offensive pressure during that time. The goal would have been to keep up that pressure and score the go ahead goal. The SH situation took that away, scoring wasn't necessary, but would have been terrible. Was that the single turning point of the game? Of course not. One of the reasons hockey is so much fun is that there are many turning points, and you can always hope your team gets the next one. But that penalty was a turning point, even though it wasn't the only reason they lost.

ebilmes
Just want to clarify that the bench minor was the only Harvard PP that Cornell was able to successfully kill off. So, as stupid as the fans are who threw fish and other objects, that penalty was not the turning point in the game.

I would have liked to have seen what Cornell might have done riding the emotion of tying the game and being able to pressure Harvard instead of having to have burn more energy defending a man down.

ithacat
The only things that should ever be allowed to be thrown on the ice should be hats and teddy bears.

Why the exceptionalism for hats and teddy bears? Hats come during game play and can be just as disruptive.

Are you implying that it is traditional so then it's okay?

Then is it also okay for an entire generation of future Cornell fans to not have the opportunity to hurl fish at the Crimson because we lost one game by one goal because of an incident that takes place once every 9 years?

Jim Hyla

ebilmes
Just want to clarify that the bench minor was the only Harvard PP that Cornell was able to successfully kill off. So, as stupid as the fans are who threw fish and other objects, that penalty was not the turning point in the game.

Come on, you're not trying to say that the only turning point can be a goal, are you? Stopping a 2 man advantage or 5 min major can be a turning point. Many, many other non-goal situations can be turning points.

So it's all about momentum? I sure hope not, because momentum is a bullshit concept.

The goal scoring in the game looks like this: Cornell->Harvard->Harvard->Cornell->Harvard->Cornell->Harvard. If you are claiming that the boldface goal was evidence of pro-Cornell momentum that was irrevocably lost by a bench minor that the team killed off (the successful PK, of course, had no effect on momentum), then I think you are confusing appearances with reality.

The bench minor didn't help but it was 2 minutes out of a 60 minute game. There was plenty of time for Cornell to score again if they cashed in a goal-scoring opportunity, regardless of "momentum" or "heart" or "drive to win."

redice

ebilmes
Just want to clarify that the bench minor was the only Harvard PP that Cornell was able to successfully kill off. So, as stupid as the fans are who threw fish and other objects, that penalty was not the turning point in the game.

You are overlooking the fact that the bench minor was indeed a momentum changing moment in the game..

And it tires out the guys who have to do all the PK. It leaves them worn down for the next PK less than 2 minutes later, not just physically, but mentally.

Tom Tone

ithacat
The only things that should ever be allowed to be thrown on the ice should be hats and teddy bears.

Why the exceptionalism for hats and teddy bears? Hats come during game play and can be just as disruptive.

Are you implying that it is traditional so then it's okay?

Then is it also okay for an entire generation of future Cornell fans to not have the opportunity to hurl fish at the Crimson because we lost one game by one goal because of an incident that takes place once every 9 years?

Hats for a hat trick is widely accepted, not just at Cornell (though we don't get to see it too often). Teddy bears after a game for charity no one would complain about.

As a current undergrad, I was embarrassed by the fish and the water bottle, and this is exactly why: with a few notable exceptions, the loyal fans of sections G through N now look at the student section with distaste and disdain. Anyone else notice how A and B swelled to numbers not yet seen this year last night? My fellow undergrads apparently believe the Harvard game is a great excuse to get blackout drunk at a hockey game and throw things onto the ice. There is a lot of tradition behind throwing the fish BEFORE the game, and it's one of the things that make Lynah Lynah. Before tonight, however, most people seemed to understand that it was over once the puck dropped. If you're a fan of throwing fish instead of a fan of hockey, this is something you apparently cannot comprehend. As is said, this is why we can't have nice things.

Did it ultimately cost us the game? No, there was plenty wrong with our play before that point. Did it severely hamper a team that was trying to salvage a poor effort with a strong third period comeback? Absolutely. And as someone who's followed this team across the country in my four years, it makes me sick.

But, to the fan in section J or K that threw the inflatable Nemo, thank you. I was amused.

(1) It's Schafer, not "Shaffer"
(2) I think firing the coach with the second highest winning percentage and the lowest losing percentage in the ECAC would be unlikely and unwise
(3) Schafer's quote, while heated, falls short of "blaming the game on the fans". Argue about whether or not the fish tradition is good or bad, or whether or not there's been too much tacit support or not, this was a big game, and when the fans - who were warned repeatedly - incur that kind of penalty, I too would be pretty pissed if I were the coach - no matter how well the team had been playing or not.

Facetimer


I agree a complaint needs to be made to the Athletic Department. But not for the fish; rather, because it's time they show Shaffer the door. Shaffer blaming this game on the fans is disingenuous. The fans win Cornell games, and give Cornell perhaps the best home ice advantage in all of college hockey. I couldn't believe it when I read Shaffer's post game comments where he places the blame on the fans. Shame on you.

The loss (to an awful Harvard team) was because of poor coaching, and an undisciplined team. Not the fans. Not the refs.

ugarte

Jim Hyla

ebilmes
Just want to clarify that the bench minor was the only Harvard PP that Cornell was able to successfully kill off. So, as stupid as the fans are who threw fish and other objects, that penalty was not the turning point in the game.

Come on, you're not trying to say that the only turning point can be a goal, are you? Stopping a 2 man advantage or 5 min major can be a turning point. Many, many other non-goal situations can be turning points.

So it's all about momentum? I sure hope not, because momentum is a bullshit concept.

The goal scoring in the game looks like this: Cornell->Harvard->Harvard->Cornell->Harvard->Cornell->Harvard. If you are claiming that the boldface goal was evidence of pro-Cornell momentum that was irrevocably lost by a bench minor that the team killed off (the successful PK, of course, had no effect on momentum), then I think you are confusing appearances with reality.

The bench minor didn't help but it was 2 minutes out of a 60 minute game. There was plenty of time for Cornell to score again if they cashed in a goal-scoring opportunity, regardless of "momentum" or "heart" or "drive to win."

Wow, where did you get that from what I posted. I was responding to a post about turning points, showing, sort of like you did, that they occur often in a game. I certainly didn't imply that it led to irrevocably lost momentum.

To go further than what I posted, I'd rather be starting a face-off at center ice following a tying goal, than following a penalty, and that's not bullshit.

redice

Andy Dodd
.....a barrage of fish demoralizes them.....

No offense, Andy...But, anyone who could believe that has a misplaced sense of their own importance in the grand scheme of a college hockey game...Some of those Harvard players had smiles on their faces...That belies any indication of being demoralized...

Andy Dodd
.....usually the "extended attempt at awesomeness" is just lame and hurts us.....

Now, there's something upon which we can agree: LAME!!!

How in the world would this indicate a sense of my own importance? Yes, I support the fish tradition (in the very respected sense of the actual *tradition* - pre-game, well before play starts, but NOT during the game), but I don't participate in it. If you had bothered to read the remainder my post, you'd see that I sit in Section M, and I readily admit, compared to the student sections we are of little importance in the grand scheme of a college hockey game.

I can't comment as to whether they were smiling or not - from my seats in M you can't really see what is going on immediately adjacent to the boards, which the Harvard team was busy hugging as hard as they could instead of proudly and defiantly skating onto the ice right in front of Section A like most teams do when they get onto the ice. If that isn't undignified and demoralizing I don't know what is.

If they were smiling during the final fish-throwing incident I wouldn't be surprised, what was going through their minds was likely on the order of "Sweet, that Cornell student just gave us a power play!"

To Polar - I wouldn't consider it distaste and disdain. Disappointment, maybe - despite the great efforts of many loyal students (such as yourself) who contribute to the great energy and atmosphere of Lynah, for whatever reason, the student sections just aren't what they used to be. Why - I don't know, but it is telling that the student season tickets do not sell out any more (or at least did not last year - My "nonpermanent" townie seats last year in Section G were unsold student tickets according to Athletics when I spoke to them this fall.) I've seen comments that supposedly Athletics jacked up the prices of student tickets significantly (I've seen news articles claiming the $247 price a few years ago was a significant increase, but not what that was an increase from), which would probably change the dynamics of those sections - Instead of being gated by who is willing to spend time camped out in line, it's by who is willing to spend the money. There are still plenty of great dedicated student fans, but that change allows people like our favorite bottle thrower to somehow attend the Harvard game, and all it takes is for a few bad apples to drag things down significantly.

Edit: One other interesting anecdote - When I was leaving after the Clarkson game, I heard one of their tuba players commenting, "This place used to be really scary. It just isn't any more." Things have definitely changed, and the opposing team fans are noticing.

Andy Dodd

redice

Andy Dodd
.....a barrage of fish demoralizes them.....

No offense, Andy...But, anyone who could believe that has a misplaced sense of their own importance in the grand scheme of a college hockey game...Some of those Harvard players had smiles on their faces...That belies any indication of being demoralized...

Andy Dodd
.....usually the "extended attempt at awesomeness" is just lame and hurts us.....

Now, there's something upon which we can agree: LAME!!!

How in the world would this indicate a sense of my own importance? Yes, I support the fish tradition (in the very respected sense of the actual *tradition* - pre-game, well before play starts, but NOT during the game), but I don't participate in it. If you had bothered to read the remainder my post, you'd see that I sit in Section M, and I readily admit, compared to the student sections we are of little importance in the grand scheme of a college hockey game.

Actually Andy, if you re-read your own post, you would see that you didn't say anything about you sitting in Sec. M. You made a reference to what could be heard in Sec. M (of "cheer coming out of somewhere in B". But, nothing about your post told me that you were sitting there...I sit in Sec. N and, in days gone by, I would agree with your assertion that "we are of little importance in the grand scheme of a college hockey game." Of late, there is precious little noise coming out of the student sections unless the team gives them something to cheer about...I come with a history that used to take great pride in generating cheers when things weren't going well for the team & they need a lift (ya know: "let's get them a goal" mentality)...That doesn't happen often these days...If the kids want to help the team they should do more of that & leave their fish at home.

Andy Dodd
I can't comment as to whether they were smiling or not - from my seats in M you can't really see what is going on immediately adjacent to the boards, which the Harvard team was busy hugging as hard as they could instead of proudly and defiantly skating onto the ice right in front of Section A like most teams do when they get onto the ice. If that isn't undignified and demoralizing I don't know what is.

Actually Andy, I sit high in Sec. N and, when the Harvard players turned in the proper direction, I was able to see the smiles...I think they're humored by it...And, I believe there are stories from past Harvard players who find the whole scene quite entertaining...For them to stay on the opposite side of the ice from the fish is not what I would call "undignified and demoralizing"..Most adults would call that "smart". Why would they posit themselves where they would subject themselves to that barrage?

Andy Dodd
Edit: One other interesting anecdote - When I was leaving after the Clarkson game, I heard one of their tuba players commenting, "This place used to be really scary. It just isn't any more." Things have definitely changed, and the opposing team fans are noticing.

See my comments about the "Let's get em a goal" mentality...Even our opposing teams fans have noticed what I've observed for some time.

Hmm, yeah, you're right - it isn't as clear as I thought that I sit in M. Sorry about that!

I think it would be possible for them to avoid the fish and not board-hug - the arms of those in the student section aren't THAT strong! But still, they board-hug which is somewhat undignified compared to just keeping about a half-rink distance (far enough from the students to avoid the majority of fish).

As far as whether the degradation in atmosphere is due to the team's performance or not - I don't think it is just about their performance. They were performing OK last year and there were still deficiencies in the student sections. There seems to be a lot less communication and far more people unfamiliar with the traditions and cheers, regardless of energy level. I mean, it should be obvious if you take any time to listen to cowbell that it is a constant-tempo cheer and that if you don't hear the cowbell speed up, you probably shouldn't either - However section F would always speed up their clapping throughout the cheer last year. (One of my coworkers described it as "sever clock drift" - we're both engineers...) Not being able to hear the cowbell wasn't an excuse for them, I was able to hear the cowbell clearly in section G. Being lagged/out of sync is excusable (speed of sound - always a challenge for musicians which is why you're supposed to always watch the conductor in a band, but F can't see B), but F's tempo increase is not.

I think Friday's penalty was just yet another symptom of a large number of people in the student sections who just don't understand what is and isn't supposed to happen for whatever reason - In the past, it was pretty clear - fish before the game, NOT after play starts. Now that isn't the case. Unfortunately it's hard to communicate such things reliably, since in any official channels of communication, Athletics has to take a position against any fish in any situation.

No problem, Andy...

I have a solution for the poor communication: Make eLynah required reading for all undergrads...

And, test them on it!! All tests will be administered at Lynah 1/2 hour before every game....That solves two problems: 1) We will have informed people in the stands and 2) The student sections will be full when the teams come onto the ice!! Win-win, from my perspective....All in jest, of course!!

Look, I'm a current student here and here's my take on it. Before the game fish... go ahead. IF YOU THROW DURING THE GAME ANYTHING OTHER THAN HATS IN THE EVENT OF A HAT TRICK THE LYNAH FAITHFUL SHOULD KICK YOU OUT THEMSELVES. I have not tolerance for the idiocy that forces our team to play a man down even when our PK Unit has been as good as it has all season.Throwing fish before the game is a great tradition that hurts no one. But after newspapers are throw after introductions, nothing more should touch the ice, and anyone who throws anything but a hat is an idiot. Speaking of hats though, wasn't it disgraceful when Roeszler's hat trick against Colgate only got a few fans to throw their headgear?

Andy Dodd
I mean, it should be obvious if you take any time to listen to cowbell that it is a constant-tempo cheer and that if you don't hear the cowbell speed up, you probably shouldn't either - However section F would always speed up their clapping throughout the cheer last year. (One of my coworkers described it as "sever clock drift" - we're both engineers...) Not being able to hear the cowbell wasn't an excuse for them, I was able to hear the cowbell clearly in section G. Being lagged/out of sync is excusable (speed of sound - always a challenge for musicians which is why you're supposed to always watch the conductor in a band, but F can't see B), but F's tempo increase is not.

I'll work on increasing the cowbell's speed of sound in the upcoming weeks! I'll keep you posted!

ajh258

Andy Dodd
I mean, it should be obvious if you take any time to listen to cowbell that it is a constant-tempo cheer and that if you don't hear the cowbell speed up, you probably shouldn't either - However section F would always speed up their clapping throughout the cheer last year. (One of my coworkers described it as "sever clock drift" - we're both engineers...) Not being able to hear the cowbell wasn't an excuse for them, I was able to hear the cowbell clearly in section G. Being lagged/out of sync is excusable (speed of sound - always a challenge for musicians which is why you're supposed to always watch the conductor in a band, but F can't see B), but F's tempo increase is not.

I'll work on increasing the cowbell's speed of sound in the upcoming weeks! I'll keep you posted!

Look if you can do that, will you share some of your millions with the rest of us?

Andy Dodd

Edit: One other interesting anecdote - When I was leaving after the Clarkson game, I heard one of their tuba players commenting, "This place used to be really scary. It just isn't any more." Things have definitely changed, and the opposing team fans are noticing.

This year I noted that the Big Red Freakout is no longer such a big deal. My friend when I mentioned this said that she thinks it changed about 5 to 6 years ago. I don't think there is a direct cause and effect, but the Freakout lost it's effectiveness 5 years ago - RPI had a long unbeaten streak at the annual Freakout.

I attributed recent the poor RPI Freakout performance to the loss of Fridgen. For some unknown reason he was a good coach at least once a year - on Freakout night.

Two of the Havard goals are shown in this video:

ebilmes
Just want to clarify that the bench minor was the only Harvard PP that Cornell was able to successfully kill off. So, as stupid as the fans are who threw fish and other objects, that penalty was not the turning point in the game.

True and IMO beside the point. We had momentum with our third, tying goal, going into that stupid third period fish toss. We lost momentum when we had to kill off the penalty. Fans with half a brain might have recalled that Harvard was batting 1.000 on the power play at that point. At the least, we lost two minutes of 5x5 hockey where we had been doing okay so far.

What I saw was that the referees sort of ignored the two tiny fish tossed right away (in the Cornell end, which Cornell players picked up) and only when a bottle and a wadded up newspaper come raining down in the Harvard end ~15 seconds later did the penalty get called.

BigRedHockeyFan
Two of the Havard goals are shown in this video:

Killer...great nickname for Killorn.

The only nice thing about Harvard scoring at Lynah is that they have no fans to celebrate.

So far this year my in-person record is 1-4 (Colgate @ Newark, Florida Classic, at Union, Harvard). Doesn't matter. It was still fantastic to be back in Lynah and savor the atmosphere of the best rink that's not among the WSJ's best rinks.

I've bounced back and forth in what I think about tossing fish. Now I'm aligned with what I believe Schafer thinks: Have fun in warmups, but don't litter the ice after the game starts - let the players play the game. We should have been so far ahead of Harvard that the fish incident 8 minutes into the third shouldn't have mattered. But it did. Regardless of what Chico Resch says, for Cornell the most dangerous lead in hockey is being tied.

I felt a lot better after talking with friends at Lynah who say Schafer feels he has the best recruiting class coming in, ever, even allowing for all those defections. So if our season ends sooner than a trip to the NCAAs, we've got something to look forward to, in addition to the women's run in the NCAAs and the lacrosse team.

billhoward
So if our season ends sooner than a trip to the NCAAs, we've got something to look forward to, in addition to the women's run in the NCAAs and the lacrosse team.

And wrestling, Bill...wrestling. In a big city arena near you.

ithacat

BigRedHockeyFan
Two of the Havard goals are shown in this video:

Killer...great nickname for Killorn.

I take great offense to that. Let him be Killjoy or Roadkillorn.

i too am a current student and completely agree with you! fish before the game=Great, but once the puck drops, the fish stop. there was a nice letter to the editor today in the Daily Sun that I think expressed what many of the true student fans were feeling.

[cornellsun.com]

In the Feb. 1995 Harvard game at Lynah, a bench-minor for throwing objects on the ice was assessed. IIRC, it was as the teams skated out for the 2nd period, and I like to remember that there was an audible groan before the it even hit the ice. Harvard scored on the ensuing PP, and wound up winning 2-1, prolonging the long RS winless streak vs. the Cantabs. This was back when the "Personals" section of the Daily Sun was quite active and vibrant, and the following week a personal appeared that read:

"To the idiot in Section D: EVERYBODY HATES YOU."

For the next few years, there was an active effort in the student sections to spread the word that the fish toss happens one time only: before introductions and only then. A friend even made up a pictogram sign she walked around our corner for the 2002 ECAC final in Lake Placid: <fish> + <block of ice> = <ref with his arm raised>.

And to give the refs credit Friday night, they were as lenient as I've ever seen a crew for this game. Usually the warning announcement happens before the game even starts during the pre-game fish cleanup. This year, they didn't ask Arthur to read the announcement until well into the 2nd period when it was clear that there were morons present who thought they had free-license to chuck crap on the ice whenever they felt like it.

RichH
In the Feb. 1995 Harvard game at Lynah, a bench-minor for throwing objects on the ice was assessed. IIRC, it was as the teams skated out for the 2nd period, and I like to remember that there was an audible groan before the it even hit the ice. Harvard scored on the ensuing PP, and wound up winning 2-1, prolonging the long RS winless streak vs. the Cantabs. This was back when the "Personals" section of the Daily Sun was quite active and vibrant, and the following week a personal appeared that read:

"To the idiot in Section D: EVERYBODY HATES YOU."

That was the game that inspired this:

[amurgsval.org]

Killer

ithacat

BigRedHockeyFan
Two of the Havard goals are shown in this video:

Killer...great nickname for Killorn.

I take great offense to that. Let him be Killjoy or Roadkillorn.

With apologies.

Accepted.

Now let's hope that if we see him again, our guys do make roadkill of him.

Extended video of the game here:

[www.ecachockey.com]

A few years ago, while I was still a student jammed into the Section A sardine case, a couple superfans in the section (BMac, I'm talking to you!!) did a nice little instructional skit before the game in front of everyone where they held up signs demonstrating the proper etiquette (have everyone hold up their newspapers while the fish are thrown so nobody will get caught) and time (once only, when H takes the ice for intros!) for the tradition. And it worked. The fact remains that the student faithful themselves need to take up the job of self-policing and organizing to preserve traditions and such, and not get in trouble and not hurt the team. Let this year be a lesson for the future and you'll be fine.

imafrshmn
A few years ago, while I was still a student jammed into the Section A sardine case, a couple superfans in the section (BMac, I'm talking to you!!) did a nice little instructional skit before the game in front of everyone where they held up signs demonstrating the proper etiquette (have everyone hold up their newspapers while the fish are thrown so nobody will get caught) and time (once only, when H takes the ice for intros!) for the tradition. And it worked. The fact remains that the student faithful themselves need to take up the job of self-policing and organizing to preserve traditions and such, and not get in trouble and not hurt the team. Let this year be a lesson for the future and you'll be fine.

The lesson is never remembered from one year to the next. The only way to stop the fish problem is to have the team and the head coach make a public appeal to the fans. Both could get on the ice before the game and ask the fans to be civil and just let the teams play hockey.

BigRedHockeyFan

imafrshmn
A few years ago, while I was still a student jammed into the Section A sardine case, a couple superfans in the section (BMac, I'm talking to you!!) did a nice little instructional skit before the game in front of everyone where they held up signs demonstrating the proper etiquette (have everyone hold up their newspapers while the fish are thrown so nobody will get caught) and time (once only, when H takes the ice for intros!) for the tradition. And it worked. The fact remains that the student faithful themselves need to take up the job of self-policing and organizing to preserve traditions and such, and not get in trouble and not hurt the team. Let this year be a lesson for the future and you'll be fine.

The lesson is never remembered from one year to the next. The only way to stop the fish problem is to have the team and the head coach make a public appeal to the fans. Both could get on the ice before the game and ask the fans to be civil and just let the teams play hockey.

Great idea!! The only problem is that most of the students don't arrive for the game until just before or after the opening faceoff..I guess they have something more important to do...So, the appeal would largely be heard by the townies who are already sitting in their seats and know enough to not throw crap on the ice...

ajh258

Andy Dodd
I mean, it should be obvious if you take any time to listen to cowbell that it is a constant-tempo cheer and that if you don't hear the cowbell speed up, you probably shouldn't either - However section F would always speed up their clapping throughout the cheer last year. (One of my coworkers described it as "sever clock drift" - we're both engineers...) Not being able to hear the cowbell wasn't an excuse for them, I was able to hear the cowbell clearly in section G. Being lagged/out of sync is excusable (speed of sound - always a challenge for musicians which is why you're supposed to always watch the conductor in a band, but F can't see B), but F's tempo increase is not.

I'll work on increasing the cowbell's speed of sound in the upcoming weeks! I'll keep you posted!

Dude, watching hockey while underwater would be interesting but not fun!

Anyway, even if you solved the classic lag problem (and made millions in the process), there is the fact that in F they just plain ignore your tempo and clap faster anyway. (At least last year they did. )

I'll admit, I probably would have missed a pregame announcement in most cases - I often wind up late to my townie seats (Work on Friday + 45 minute drive = dammit! )

I agree - the refs were incredibly lenient. It's almost expected they'll let it slide during the traditional time (traditions + army of cleanup crew ready to go + plenty of time for the cleanup crew to finish without actually delaying the game), but after the first and second goals, fish were thrown that WERE game-delaying, we got lucky not to get a delay of game called for those.

Andy Dodd
after the first and second goals, fish were thrown that WERE game-delaying, we got lucky not to get a delay of game called for those.

In retrospect, perhaps it would have been better if we had gotten a penalty after one of the earlier goals - at least we would have had more time to re-compose ourselves afterward, anyway....