How good is Lenny?
Posted by JohnnieAg99
How good is Lenny?
Posted by: JohnnieAg99 (---)
Date: February 13, 2003 11:07AM
OK, please don't kill me for this one. I'm pretty new here.
I know that it's highly likely that Lenny is one of the top 2-3 goalies in the country as a soph, and may end up as one of our best ever.
But, is it possible that he's good, but not all-time great? Consider-
Matt was awesome last year, and he's now taking a bus around South Carolina.
Todd Marr, who was hardly stellar at Northeastern, looked awfully good (3 GA in 2 games) when Lenny was at the WJC.
Lenny got torched, then yanked, at the WJC.
Is it possible that our defense is so great that it's making Lenny look all-world, when he's really 'just' all-american?
Either way, it doesn't really matter, because noone will be able to score on us, but I'm curious to know what people think.
I know that it's highly likely that Lenny is one of the top 2-3 goalies in the country as a soph, and may end up as one of our best ever.
But, is it possible that he's good, but not all-time great? Consider-
Matt was awesome last year, and he's now taking a bus around South Carolina.
Todd Marr, who was hardly stellar at Northeastern, looked awfully good (3 GA in 2 games) when Lenny was at the WJC.
Lenny got torched, then yanked, at the WJC.
Is it possible that our defense is so great that it's making Lenny look all-world, when he's really 'just' all-american?
Either way, it doesn't really matter, because noone will be able to score on us, but I'm curious to know what people think.
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: Greg Berge (---)
Date: February 13, 2003 11:28AM
It's possible, but LeNeveu is also a second round draft pick and has garnered raves from everyone as being technically perfect.
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: Alan (65.205.40.---)
Date: February 13, 2003 11:31AM
I have the same concerns. I believe that Lenny is very, very good. But, does he make our defense or does our defense make him?
I think he had a few off games at the WJCs. I wish he was given another chance to get back in net and work out the butterflies.
He makes stops in games that are sometimes amazing, but I have rarely seen him stop a breakaway. He rarely sees any breakaways though, so this is of little concern. Our defense keeps forwards cleared out from the front of the net, so he is rarely screened. But, I have also seen him make some stops on pucks that I can't understand how he could have seen it.
What impresses me the most about Lenny, is his aggressive nature towards lunging at pucks. He puts himself out there, quickly, not giving a forward a chance at a lose puck or rebound. One or two times a game you may be able to see him make this move, either with his stick or his glove.
The last thing that I am going to say is that he is a sound fundamental goalie who seems to be in position for almost any shot at any given time.
Will we ever know if he is as great as Dryden? I don't think so, he suits our defense to a tee, that's what matters most.
I think he had a few off games at the WJCs. I wish he was given another chance to get back in net and work out the butterflies.
He makes stops in games that are sometimes amazing, but I have rarely seen him stop a breakaway. He rarely sees any breakaways though, so this is of little concern. Our defense keeps forwards cleared out from the front of the net, so he is rarely screened. But, I have also seen him make some stops on pucks that I can't understand how he could have seen it.
What impresses me the most about Lenny, is his aggressive nature towards lunging at pucks. He puts himself out there, quickly, not giving a forward a chance at a lose puck or rebound. One or two times a game you may be able to see him make this move, either with his stick or his glove.
The last thing that I am going to say is that he is a sound fundamental goalie who seems to be in position for almost any shot at any given time.
Will we ever know if he is as great as Dryden? I don't think so, he suits our defense to a tee, that's what matters most.
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: Greg Berge (---)
Date: February 13, 2003 11:31AM
Also, although Lenny did have a bad game in the WJC, he had to be good enough not only to be selected for a tryout but also to beat out other candidates and actually make the final roster. It isn't as if the spot was a gift that he then immediately showed he wasn't up to.
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: curoadkill (---)
Date: February 13, 2003 11:38AM
[Q]I have rarely seen him stop a breakaway.[/Q]
Lenny put on a SHOW at Red/White during the shootout. I think he stopped four of five but I don't remember exactly. Granted that's not game conditiones etc. etc. but it was still damn impressive.
Lenny put on a SHOW at Red/White during the shootout. I think he stopped four of five but I don't remember exactly. Granted that's not game conditiones etc. etc. but it was still damn impressive.
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: ugarte (63.94.240.---)
Date: February 13, 2003 11:39AM
Don't forget - Lenny's defense at the WJC was better than his defense at Cornell is. He just had a few off games after a spectacular training camp, where he beat out two goalies drafted ahead of him. He played backup on the Canadian team to a goalie likely to be a top-5 pick in the next draft.
He may not turn out to be a Dryden when we look back at his post-Cornell career, but he is about as good as college goalies get. We are damn lucky to have him.
He may not turn out to be a Dryden when we look back at his post-Cornell career, but he is about as good as college goalies get. We are damn lucky to have him.
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: Section A (---)
Date: February 13, 2003 11:46AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the game during which he was pulled at the WJC, weren't the two quick goals he let in both shorthanded?
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: Tub(a) (132.236.216.---)
Date: February 13, 2003 11:49AM
Lenny is a fantastic positional goalie. I think it will take him a while to adapt to NHL speed. In the ECAC, you can show the 5 hole and take it away easily. That doesn't fool people on higher levels, including the WJCs.
I think Lenny is very coachable, and that is why he was drafted high.
I think Lenny is very coachable, and that is why he was drafted high.
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: Alan (65.205.40.---)
Date: February 13, 2003 11:59AM
Chris Parkin '03 wrote:
The breakaway that I recall vividly was the Mark Mullen SHG in the 3rd period of the Sunday BU game. I believe that one of the goals scored on him against the German WJC team was also a breakaway, maybe SH also.
Yes, Chris, I agree, he was great in the Red-White shootout.
Lenny put on a SHOW at Red/White during the shootout. I think he stopped four of five but I don't remember exactly. Granted that's not game conditiones etc. etc. but it was still damn impressive.
The breakaway that I recall vividly was the Mark Mullen SHG in the 3rd period of the Sunday BU game. I believe that one of the goals scored on him against the German WJC team was also a breakaway, maybe SH also.
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: gwm3 (---)
Date: February 13, 2003 01:13PM
[Q]I think it will take him a while to adapt to NHL speed[/Q]
Yeah, hopefully at least 2 years
Yeah, hopefully at least 2 years
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: rhovorka (---)
Date: February 13, 2003 01:42PM
[Q]He makes stops in games that are sometimes amazing, but I have rarely seen him stop a breakaway.[/Q]
I can remember 2 breakaways in particular he has stopped. One in the home Dartmouth game, and one in the Union game at Achilles. There was a partial breakaway in the Colgate game at Starr as well. In addition, there have been partial breakaways (or just well set-up odd-man rushes) but I can't place them in my mind.
He let in breakaway goals vs. BU (sh) and WMU (game 2).
My take on his success (I'm no goaltending coach or talent scout) is that it's a combination of being technically sound and having a great defense in front of him. The "Grade A" chances he sees are very limited. But when there is an opportunity for 2nd chances out in front of him, he's incredible. He's a really great example of how the "butterfly" style should be played: positional and "quiet" (not a lot of unnecessary movements). He's fast getting his feet out and quick moving laterally. For comparison, I think he plays a game similar to Patrick Roy: a sound butterfly style with fast feet. There's also stand-up goaltenders (Ken Dryden), and the floppers...it's hard to find a flopper that is good for an extended period. Dominick Hasek is the exception, and the biggest flopper I can think of from Cornell was Andy Bandurski.
Anyway, back to Lenny...his skills are great, but the defense and coaching strategy helps. It has been the style of the Schafer era to get the goaltenders to direct the rebounds out to the side where the CU defense can do the rest of the clearing. He doesn't have a weakness in his game, but can get beat occasionally any way goaltenders can. SLU got 2 goals in Lynah quick on shots from the blue-line, so they assumed that was the way to go for the rest of the game, with no more success. He got beat 5-hole by the Mormina laser in the home Colgate game.
When I first saw him play, which was at Brown last season, I thought he was very timid to leave the goalpost (compared to Underhill that was shocking to see), but his coming out party was really at BU a few weeks later when he stole a game for us. From then on, he was money (except for the Dartmouth game). He's made mistakes (hesitating to skate out to get the loose puck vs. WMU), but otherwise has been as advertised. He's been snakebit by flukey goals at least 3 times this year, costing him shutouts.
The shutout record is neat, but when you think about the different eras, Dryden played in an incredibly offensive era where teams often averaged 5-7 gpg. (Not to take anything away from Lenny, but it's like comparing Barry Bonds in Major League Juiceball with Babe Ruth in dead-ball 1921)
Here's an interesting stat. As of now, Dov Grumet-Morris has the #2 stats overall from ECAC goaltenders. Lenny has played 12 more seconds than Dov, and has exactly half as many goals allowed. But Dov has made nearly 200 more saves.
My question...we know the Cornell single-season record for shutouts, and I think someone mentioned that Ryan Miller had 10 one year, which is the NCAA record. What is the ECAC record?
I can remember 2 breakaways in particular he has stopped. One in the home Dartmouth game, and one in the Union game at Achilles. There was a partial breakaway in the Colgate game at Starr as well. In addition, there have been partial breakaways (or just well set-up odd-man rushes) but I can't place them in my mind.
He let in breakaway goals vs. BU (sh) and WMU (game 2).
My take on his success (I'm no goaltending coach or talent scout) is that it's a combination of being technically sound and having a great defense in front of him. The "Grade A" chances he sees are very limited. But when there is an opportunity for 2nd chances out in front of him, he's incredible. He's a really great example of how the "butterfly" style should be played: positional and "quiet" (not a lot of unnecessary movements). He's fast getting his feet out and quick moving laterally. For comparison, I think he plays a game similar to Patrick Roy: a sound butterfly style with fast feet. There's also stand-up goaltenders (Ken Dryden), and the floppers...it's hard to find a flopper that is good for an extended period. Dominick Hasek is the exception, and the biggest flopper I can think of from Cornell was Andy Bandurski.
Anyway, back to Lenny...his skills are great, but the defense and coaching strategy helps. It has been the style of the Schafer era to get the goaltenders to direct the rebounds out to the side where the CU defense can do the rest of the clearing. He doesn't have a weakness in his game, but can get beat occasionally any way goaltenders can. SLU got 2 goals in Lynah quick on shots from the blue-line, so they assumed that was the way to go for the rest of the game, with no more success. He got beat 5-hole by the Mormina laser in the home Colgate game.
When I first saw him play, which was at Brown last season, I thought he was very timid to leave the goalpost (compared to Underhill that was shocking to see), but his coming out party was really at BU a few weeks later when he stole a game for us. From then on, he was money (except for the Dartmouth game). He's made mistakes (hesitating to skate out to get the loose puck vs. WMU), but otherwise has been as advertised. He's been snakebit by flukey goals at least 3 times this year, costing him shutouts.
The shutout record is neat, but when you think about the different eras, Dryden played in an incredibly offensive era where teams often averaged 5-7 gpg. (Not to take anything away from Lenny, but it's like comparing Barry Bonds in Major League Juiceball with Babe Ruth in dead-ball 1921)
Here's an interesting stat. As of now, Dov Grumet-Morris has the #2 stats overall from ECAC goaltenders. Lenny has played 12 more seconds than Dov, and has exactly half as many goals allowed. But Dov has made nearly 200 more saves.
Goals Against Average: Minutes GA GAA 1 Dave LeNeveu Cornell SO 1141:20 22 1.16 2 Dov Grumet-Morris Harvard SO 1141:08 44 2.31 Save Percentage: Saves GA Pct 1 Dave LeNeveu Cornell SO 342 22 .940 2 Dov Grumet-Morris Harvard SO 539 44 .925
My question...we know the Cornell single-season record for shutouts, and I think someone mentioned that Ryan Miller had 10 one year, which is the NCAA record. What is the ECAC record?
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: CowbellGuy (---)
Date: February 13, 2003 02:14PM
Rich Hovorka '96 wrote:
And this, well, isn't...
He's a really great example of how the "butterfly" style should be played
And this, well, isn't...
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: Give My Regards (---)
Date: February 13, 2003 02:18PM
[Q]My question...we know the Cornell single-season record for shutouts, and I think someone mentioned that Ryan Miller had 10 one year, which is the NCAA record. What is the ECAC record?[/Q]
Jack Ferreira had 8 for BU in the 1964-65 season. He and Ken Dryden share the ECAC career record for shutouts with 13.
Jack Ferreira had 8 for BU in the 1964-65 season. He and Ken Dryden share the ECAC career record for shutouts with 13.
Re: How good is Lenny? WJC defense
Posted by: Keith K (---)
Date: February 13, 2003 04:15PM
The Canadian WJC team certainly had better talent than Cornell (or at least I assume so). But since defense is a team thing, is it clear that they had a better overall defense after two weeks together?
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: Greg Berge (---)
Date: February 14, 2003 01:04AM
Lenny had 2 shut outs last year, so his career total is currently 7. Bill, is the Dryden record of 13 career shut outs just ECAC play, or career shut outs from all games by an ECAC goalie?
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: Josh '99 (207.10.33.---)
Date: February 14, 2003 07:19AM
Greg wrote:
For what it's worth, all of Lenny's shutouts have come in ECAC games.
Lenny had 2 shut outs last year, so his career total is currently 7. Bill, is the Dryden record of 13 career shut outs just ECAC play, or career shut outs from all games by an ECAC goalie?
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: Give My Regards (---)
Date: February 14, 2003 10:12AM
[Q]Bill, is the Dryden record of 13 career shut outs just ECAC play, or career shut outs from all games by an ECAC goalie?[/Q]
It's all games -- it includes the 1-0 NCAA semi win over North Dakota and a couple shutouts over Canadian teams, as well as ECAC opponents.
It's all games -- it includes the 1-0 NCAA semi win over North Dakota and a couple shutouts over Canadian teams, as well as ECAC opponents.
Facts
Posted by: Ken 70 (---)
Date: February 15, 2003 11:51AM
In one goal or tie games (an ENG by either team that makes the final score > 1 goal is still a 1 goal game for these purposes) Cornell's record this season is:
W L T
Lenny 3 2 1
Non-Lenny 2 2 0
The 2 non-Lenny 1 goal losses were the Florida tournament, where Cornell has a long standing commitment to the organizers that it will not win the consolation game under any circumstances.
Last night's tie would have been a win except for his pedestrian handling of Brown's second goal.
W L T
Lenny 3 2 1
Non-Lenny 2 2 0
The 2 non-Lenny 1 goal losses were the Florida tournament, where Cornell has a long standing commitment to the organizers that it will not win the consolation game under any circumstances.
Last night's tie would have been a win except for his pedestrian handling of Brown's second goal.
Comparisons
Posted by: Al DeFlorio (---)
Date: February 15, 2003 12:48PM
Yes, Lenny didn't handle Haggett's game-tying shot well last night, but to exclude the Everblades games in any Lenny/non-Lenny comparison does cause a distortion. I think the important message is that Cornell is 5-4-1 in one-goal games, and what that--in particular last night's game--shows is that one goal games can go either way. A bad bounce, a turnover in your end, a crazy deflection, a misplay by a goalie on a non-quality chance, etc., can really ruin your day, even if you've clamped down and are controlling play.
A more interesting comparison is that Cornell is 17-1 in games where Hornby has played, and 2-3-1 in games where he has been injured, DQ'd, or tossed in the first few minutes (Colgate away).
A more interesting comparison is that Cornell is 17-1 in games where Hornby has played, and 2-3-1 in games where he has been injured, DQ'd, or tossed in the first few minutes (Colgate away).
Re: How good is Lenny?
Posted by: Greg Berge (---)
Date: February 15, 2003 01:57PM
Good, since we will be seeing Hornby tonight. Will it work for him to start and just not leave the bench?
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