ECAC's moving to Atlantic City in 2011

3-year agreement

[www.ecachockey.com]

booo

awesome! combines 2 of my loves....hockey + gambling, not necessarily in that order

Boardwalk Hall looks beautiful. Just over 10,000 for hockey seems about right.

I call Section 203.

Shit!!!!

Uugh. Lame venue in an inconvenient city. It looks like a better home for obscure trade shows than hockey games, like the Westchester County Center in White Plains.

Jordan 04
3-year agreement

[www.ecachockey.com]

Wow. That's a shocker.

In lieu of an immediate rant, I'll post the following data, based on Google Maps driving times:

Princeton:    1:45
New Haven:    3:46*
Hamden:       3:49*
Schenectady:  4:39*
Troy:         4:40*
Ithaca:       5:09
Providence:   5:22*
Hamilton:     5:42
Allston:      5:53*
Hanover:      6:45*
Canton:       7:32
Potsdam:      7:46

(* Note: 7 of the 12 have to route through NYC traffic)

PHL Airport: 1:10
AC Airport: AirTran, Spirit, WestJet only
NJ Transit from Philly: ~95 minutes

Generally I was neutral in the Boston/LP/Albany debate. All had their positives and negatives, but they were at least in proximity to the league geography.

This...I don't know WTF they're thinking. (oh, I know it was $$$) Way to look out for the common fan, league office.

I'll start making my sign based on the largest lettering on the AC airport's website: "ACWhy?"

jaybert
awesome! combines 2 of my loves....hockey + gambling, not necessarily in that order

I'll agree there for the most part. This could be dangerous for me.

A longer drive for us, but it's got to be a better venue; the TUC was like a mausoleum last year, and there's no energy in the area surrounding the arena. All-in-all, worth a try.

imafrshmn
Uugh. Lame venue in an inconvenient city.

It's a matter of perspective. Atlantic City is an hour and a half by train from 30th Street in Philly. There are non-stop flights from Boston (Spirit), Toronto (Westjet), and Atlanta (AirTran).

So for those of us who live a bit further to the south (or will be living a bit further to the south), Atlantic City seems pretty convenient. I would think that the many Canadian parents of ECAC hockey players will find it much easier to attend. (From NYC, it's pretty much a wash with Albany by train or car.) But, yeah, for the Boston, Ithaca, or North Country crowds, it's less convenient.

Albany, while potentially charming(?) if you look (hard), is kind of a dump. And the Times-Union Center is definitely a dump. Having never been to Atlantic City, I can't say it will be much better. With the ding-ding-dings, at least there will be something else to do when not watching hockey. I would also think that the hotel (ding-ding-ding) choices will be better.

Here's hoping.

On the positive side , we probably don't have to worry about any opposing fans showing up at the arena.

judy

jaybert
awesome! combines 2 of my loves....hockey + gambling, not necessarily in that order

I'll agree there for the most part. This could be dangerous for me.

on a negative note, hotels are very expensive in the immediate area (boardwalk/etc)...probably $200-300/night for the weekends, maybe more.

RichH
(* Note: 7 of the 12 have to route through NYC traffic)

Not necessarily - outside of the already mentioned train travel, you can avoid NYC by taking the Tappan Zee bridge to the Garden State Parkway and ride that all the way to Atlantic City...

Also there are relatively cheaper hotels furthur away from town.

Yay Jersey.

Interesting move to say the least.

I'm very curious to see how this all plays out. Albany was struggling to draw even as a centralized location relative to the league. Was this due to Albany itself, the rink, etc? Now they have made a move to a city with more to offer outside of the games, but what does the added inconvenience of travel time (driving) for most fans do the crowds? Does Harvard's fan even make the drive if they get to the semis?

bigredtrumpet

RichH
(* Note: 7 of the 12 have to route through NYC traffic)

Not necessarily - outside of the already mentioned train travel, you can avoid NYC by taking the Tappan Zee bridge to the Garden State Parkway and ride that all the way to Atlantic City...

My point was that all the driving times I listed are "best cases" because it doesn't take into account the slowing effect of the Metro NY traffic. Taking a longer route to a bridge that also is often bogged down with traffic doesn't change that.

Look, as hockey crazed alumni, many of us would find a way to go to Phoenix (and bitch about it) if the league moved them there. Personally, I think I'm looking forward to spending a weekend with gambling and drinking opportunities.

My main reason for disliking this is that it screws undergrads from around the league, and that's a shame. Consider the borderline hockey fan who may be on the fence about going to the tournament weekend. Now you're basically doubling the travel time for just about every student (Princeton has never had an undergrad fanbase). This location will be a detriment to attendance of all member institutions. Locals still won't care. The local media is smaller and less relevant.

And let's face it. Your 3 biggest draws in terms of fanbases are Cornell, Clarkson, and St. Lawrence. Those 3 showed up in force at both Lake Placid and Albany when their teams were in it. With this, you can pretty much kiss the North Country townies goodbye.

It will be ironic if RPI finally makes it to Albany this year and attendance greatly increases.

RichH

bigredtrumpet

RichH
(* Note: 7 of the 12 have to route through NYC traffic)

Not necessarily - outside of the already mentioned train travel, you can avoid NYC by taking the Tappan Zee bridge to the Garden State Parkway and ride that all the way to Atlantic City...

My point was that all the driving times I listed are "best cases" because it doesn't take into account the slowing effect of the Metro NY traffic. Taking a longer route to a bridge that also is often bogged down with traffic doesn't change that.

Look, as hockey crazed alumni, many of us would find a way to go to Phoenix (and bitch about it) if the league moved them there. Personally, I think I'm looking forward to spending a weekend with gambling and drinking opportunities.

My main reason for disliking this is that it screws undergrads from around the league, and that's a shame. Consider the borderline hockey fan who may be on the fence about going to the tournament weekend. Now you're basically doubling the travel time for just about every student (Princeton has never had an undergrad fanbase). This location will be a detriment to attendance of all member institutions. Locals still won't care. The local media is smaller and less relevant.

Although the travel time will probably negate this, perhaps the drinking and gambling aspect has the potential to draw the borderline hockey fan who previously couldn't have cared less about going to Albany for a weekend. And being that the tournament is held over spring break, possibly even more impetus to head to AC for a weekend.

That said, it does seem awfully illogically to move the tournament even further from the 3 most dedicated local fan bases.

As a New Yorker, I'm fairly ambivalent. I was always in the camp that was perfectly content with Albany as a venue and physical location, and although AC is equidistant, it has always seemed like more of a schlep than the straight shot up 87. On the upside, a little luck at the tables can pay for the trip. On the downside, hotels will be a little pricier, and I hate hate hate hate hate casino cigarette smoke.

Scersk '97
Albany, while potentially charming(?) if you look (hard), is kind of a dump.

Agree, but the same can be said about just about every mid-size Northeastern city. And really, AC is overall pretty dumpy too. Once you get away from the Boardwalk (which has seen better days) or the modern Borgata, it's a lot like the seedy part of Niagara Falls. But if you like the convenience of finding a bailbondsman in Albany, you'll feel right at home.

And the Times-Union Center is definitely a dump.

Disagree. For an AHL arena, it's pretty good. I prefer that arena to similar AHL venues in Binghamton, Glens Falls, Worcester, and just a shade better than Hartford. And it gives the players the experience of getting to play in a "Pro Arena" if not for the memory, but in potential future NCAA Tournament venues.

I looked at the pictures of the AC arena. It looks like the 1932 Rink in Lake Placid but with fancy lights. (Not the 1980 Rink, mind you) or even a slightly better Syracuse War Memorial, of which the memories of the S(h)IT still makes me shiver.

I would also think that the hotel (ding-ding-ding) choices will be better.

Whee. TRUMP welcomes the ECAC. Anyone bitching about the room rates in Lake Placid will feel nostalgic for all the affordable quality lodging options on Wolf Rd.

Frankly, if they wanted a smaller venue, I think that the Arena at Harbor Yard in Bridgeport would have been adequate. It's convenient to highways, train, and ferry. It has hosted NCAA events. It has a large enough surrounding population (yet close to small communities) to satisfy many fans, and it's in a familiar region to most league fans.

RichH

Frankly, if they wanted a smaller venue, I think that the Arena at Harbor Yard in Bridgeport would have been adequate. It's convenient to highways, train, and ferry. It has hosted NCAA events. It has a large enough surrounding population (yet close to small communities) to satisfy many fans, and it's in a familiar region to most league fans.

And is in an awful area and no one would really want to stay around there.

Yeah, I'm a bit appalled. It'll be nice to have "something to do" in the non-hockey time, but it's going to be a much more expensive proposition to stay anywhere near as close to the games as I enjoyed doing in Albany. I could use it as an excuse to visit friends an hour's drive away in southern NJ, but then no drinking. And the travel times from the various schools just boggle my mind. Lake Placid and Atlantic City have one thing in common, that the roads you have to take to get there are relatively small and can take a long time - but at least Lake Placid is incredibly beautiful and close to some of the member schools.

If the tourney were going to be played during genuinely good boardwalk/beach weather I might feel differently, but it surely won't.

RichH

Whee. TRUMP welcomes the ECAC. Anyone bitching about the room rates in Lake Placid will feel nostalgic for all the affordable quality lodging options on Wolf Rd.

Apples and oranges to compare rates at the Trop or Caesars to Wolf Rd. accommodations. AC appears to have its own strip of affordable options by the airport, a few miles drive from the Boardwalk, which would be the proper comparison.

Walkable options will be more expensive than in Albany, but not exorbitantly so. Rates for walkable hotels in the week leading up to the tournament this year were in the $100-$150 range. I would expect the AC hotels to run ~$150-$175 per night for the tournament weekend.

Edit: Looks like I'm a bit off on the weekend rates. Next 2 weekends for boardwalk hotels run in the $200-250 range.

Jacob '06

RichH

Frankly, if they wanted a smaller venue, I think that the Arena at Harbor Yard in Bridgeport would have been adequate. It's convenient to highways, train, and ferry. It has hosted NCAA events. It has a large enough surrounding population (yet close to small communities) to satisfy many fans, and it's in a familiar region to most league fans.

And is in an awful area and no one would really want to stay around there.

So who says you have to stay there? Didn't I mention the proximity to transportation options for people who are so afraid of the boogieman that they have to run away? You can go to your posh Fairfield, CT one stop on MetroNorth and live in a Martha Stewart CT world, if that's what you prefer.

They said the same things about Albany when it was moved from Lake Placid. And you know what? People stayed all over the place there, too. See my previous comments about every mid-sized northeastern city. I live in downtown Hartford, and I get that fear-mongering all the time from people who don't live there. I heard the same stuff about Bridgeport from people before I went to the NCAA women's basketball tournament, and you know what? It wasn't as bad as people said. No, it's not for everyone. And that's why the suburbs exist. AC is dumpy as well.

Our options for a league tournament are:

1) Dumpy mid-size city in a minor league arena (which are almost always near the dumpy city centers)

2) Small, expensive, out of the way resort town

3) Playing 2nd fiddle in Boston.

It looks like they found a way to combine #1 and #2 into a fourth option. I hope AC threw enough cash at the league office to make this worth it.

On a personal level, this move works out well for me. I'm generally pleased with this move. I like poker, I usually don't go to the semis or consy, I have in-laws nearby so I can go watch hockey while my wife and son are visiting family. Plus, Boardwalk Hall isn't a bad venue. It is ~3000 seats smaller than the TUC, which always felt empty whenever it wasn't in the immediate aftermath of a Cornell goal/win.

But it is pretty clear that this will make the weekend more expensive and less convenient for most. I especially think this is a slap to undergrads, since they are mostly too young to gamble and too young to enjoy what passes for entertainment at the hotels.

Still, shuffle up and deal.

RichH
Look, as hockey crazed alumni, many of us would find a way to go to Phoenix

Be careful what you say Rich..... They'll read this and immediately begin considering Phoenix. After all, what could be better than the sunshiny southwest in March? Not for me, of course.

This wasn't, like, originally posted on onion.com?

This is good for alumni fans in the NYC area, of which Cornell has many. Okay, it screws the students who dominate the Lynah fan base. Also alumni in Boston. Al DeFlorio, who lives on Cape Cod, is going to make the Friday faceoff only if he leaves now for the game, or books a cruise ship that calls on Atlantic City.

It's not as far as driving to Boston. Disregarding what you find when you get there.

If you stay away from boardwalk hotels, prices will be okay. You can also book yourself as a Dryden, NY, VFW Bowling League group and get a nice Boardwalk discount plus gambling and drink credits. It works for a year or two before they wise up and learn you're not there to gamble.

Too bad the ECAC couldn't snag Madison Square Garden or Prudential Arena in Newark. Leave the upper level dark and it'd look half full.

Clarkson alum RichS lives in NJ so he's okay, but current Clarkson and St. Lawrence students got screwed. And Clarkson does have fans who love hockey. I almost feel sorry for them.

That SUCKS. I'm sure AC is nice for gambling and the arena may be nice, but it makes no sense to host a tourny so far from most of your fan base.Like it or not, a least Albany was somewhat centrally located. I hope it's a big flop and they choose to move to a better location in the future

Providence would have been a better choice. Nice city, attractive arena, wide choice of places to stay, varied--and many very good--dining options, reasonable travel for Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, (all in this year's preseason top five), QU, RPI, Union and, not that it matters, Brown, and in an area where college (as well as prep) hockey has a real following.

I've decided to look on the bright side of this decision - I may die before 2011 and then it won't make any difference to me.

Personally, this is great for me. I get to save a half-day vacation (2 hours versus 3½ hours drive). There are much better locations for me to go birdwatching when there's no hockey to watch. The only downside is having to drive through downtown Philly to get there, but since I'll be doing it at lunchtime, no biggie.

Sucks for the students, tho.

Al DeFlorio
Providence would have been a better choice. Nice city, attractive arena, wide choice of places to stay, varied--and many very good--dining options, reasonable travel for Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, (all in this year's preseason top five), QU, RPI, Union and, not that it matters, Brown, and in an area where college (as well as prep) hockey has a real following.

Agreed, and I hereby change my support from Bridgeport to Providence, which did as many things right in their urban-renewal efforts that Hartford has done wrong. There are now reasons to draw people INTO the city center rather than AWAY from it. It also has transportation advantages, being on Amtrak's NE Corridor, as well as hooking into Boston's commuter rail. It's also a familiar trip for everyone in the league. Gets us off the hill that Brown sits on and into a different part of the city.

The arena is smaller, a single deck, is close to many restaurant and drinking establishments, and there are quality hotels located nearby as well. As for the media, the ProJo has awareness of collegiate events, and may also attract the attention of the Boston media. You also have a reasonable population size who would be interested in D-1 college hockey so you could draw unaffiliated lookie-loos from the RI & Boston areas to bump up the attendance.

Good call, Al.

In AC, they'll be lucky to have attendance break 3500. And that's WITH our best drawing teams (Cornell, Clarkson, SLU, and RPI say) in the thing. I really doubt there will be a webcast option as well.

This is the Northern version of the Everblades.

A couple of us long-time ECAC scribe types check in, with mixed reviews.

[www.dailygazette.com]

[www.collegehockeynews.com]

I think Harvard's behind this. They can't draw a crowd anywhere, so why not put the tournamant in a place where no one is likely to draw a crowd, thereby leveling the playing field?

They may have a nice facility there, but is there anyone who thinks of AC when they think of college hockey?

Bizarre. Very convenient for me, but... bizarre.

I wonder if this indicates a willigness/long term plan for the ECAC to add southern schools (e.g., Navy).

The only good news about this is that it's less likely to snow that weekend in Atlantic City than in Albany.

That absolutely sucks. I admit that I am biased to more northern venues since I live near Burlington, VT, but I still think that it makes no sense to host the tournament further south than pretty much every school. I agree with those who would like to return to Lake Placid or maybe move to Providence. Lake Placid has the charm, character, and history to bring fans and Providence has done a great job at revitalizing the city. Providence is a legitimate hockey hot-bed which would probably bring local fans interested in seeing some good games.

I have gone to every ECAC championship involving Cornell for the last decade. Call me a whimp, but the chances of me going all the way to AC (and having to do the horrible drive around NYC and through NJ) are pretty slim. That also sucks because I am going to be pissed when we are playing and I am not there.

cth95
I have gone to every ECAC championship involving Cornell for the last decade. Call me a whimp, but the chances of me going all the way to AC (and having to do the horrible drive around NYC and through NJ) are pretty slim. That also sucks because I am going to be pissed when we are playing and I am not there.

This mirrors my opinion of the change from Boston to LP. I missed only one ECAC tourney in Boston involving CU. That would be 1980 (UGH!!). They moved it to LP and I can say that I never went to one there. IMO, it was a really bad idea & I chose not to participate. Of course, I ended up missing the 1995 & 1996 championship years in LP. So, I can relate to your feelings.

I think AC, like LP, is a really bad idea. But, with all of the attractions, we'll go to AC anyway. LP offered nothing of interest to me.

Providence is a good call. Maybe in four years the ECAC should contact the Dunk.

At least it's an insanely gorgeous venue. IINM, it's where my Dad used to watch Atantic City play in the 30's.

redice

RichH
Look, as hockey crazed alumni, many of us would find a way to go to Phoenix

Be careful what you say Rich..... They'll read this and immediately begin considering Phoenix. After all, what could be better than the sunshiny southwest in March? Not for me, of course.

Let's do it. I'm in.

I'm a little confused - do people think AC is easier to get to from NYC than Albany? For example, from Adam's article (not singling you out, but I happen to have the window open so it's easiest):

And for every local or student that was going, there will -- theoretically -- be alumni of all ECAC schools in the New York City area who now have it much easier to attend.

How is that the case? The drive is almost the same - 130 miles to AC, 150 miles to Albany, so it's a little bit closer, but there's also some stupid traffic on the local roads that take you into AC from the Parkway that mitigate that difference. Both are accessible by train or bus. As far as travel, it's basically a wash.

Trotsky
At least it's an insanely gorgeous venue. IINM, it's where my Dad used to watch Atantic City play in the 30's.

It maybe be gorgeous, but I'm afraid that it could be the sight of a pool party due to bad ice ala the Frozen Four in Cincinnati years back. I hate the idea of playing important games (i.e. a NC$$ bid at stake) in a venue not set up for ice hockey. I doubt the agreement between the ECAC and AC includes the loan of the NHL ice set-up and maintenance people.

Rita
It maybe be gorgeous, but I'm afraid that it could be the sight of a pool party due to bad ice ala the Frozen Four in Cincinnati years back. I hate the idea of playing important games (i.e. a NC$$ bid at stake) in a venue not set up for ice hockey. I doubt the agreement between the ECAC and AC includes the loan of the NHL ice set-up and maintenance people.

What do you mean by "not set up for ice hockey"? This was the home of the ECHL Boardwalk Bullies through 2005, so they clearly must have their own permanently installed icemaking equipment.

Per the history section of the official site:

"The new NHL regulation-sized ice rink, which consists of 400 cubic yards of concrete, measures 200 feet by 85 feet. Glycol, a refrigerant used for cooling the floor, runs through 51,200 feet of piping within the arena floor. The addition of a new refrigeration plant allows the entire ice surface for hockey, including the painting of lines and logos, to be completed in 24 hours. A rapid de-bonding system has been installed to facilitate quick ice removal within eight hours, enabling a faster conversion from event to event."

Robb

Rita
It maybe be gorgeous, but I'm afraid that it could be the sight of a pool party due to bad ice ala the Frozen Four in Cincinnati years back. I hate the idea of playing important games (i.e. a NC$$ bid at stake) in a venue not set up for ice hockey. I doubt the agreement between the ECAC and AC includes the loan of the NHL ice set-up and maintenance people.

What do you mean by "not set up for ice hockey"? This was the home of the ECHL Boardwalk Bullies through 2005, so they clearly must have their own permanently installed icemaking equipment.

Per the history section of the official site:

"The new NHL regulation-sized ice rink, which consists of 400 cubic yards of concrete, measures 200 feet by 85 feet. Glycol, a refrigerant used for cooling the floor, runs through 51,200 feet of piping within the arena floor. The addition of a new refrigeration plant allows the entire ice surface for hockey, including the painting of lines and logos, to be completed in 24 hours. A rapid de-bonding system has been installed to facilitate quick ice removal within eight hours, enabling a faster conversion from event to event."

Before posting last night I did a quick check of ECHL teams and didn't see AC listed. So even though they had a team back in 2005, they are apparently now defunct. At least with TU in Albany and LP, the venues were regularly being used for ice hockey. With the venue in AC, it seems that hockey is not going to be the main use of the building (see here for their sporting events), thus the potential for bad ice and other problems are greater.

After seeing the listing of events, I hope that next year the ECAC hockey tourney will also follow A-10 Basketball and not an indoor auto racing event!

I don't like it.

I'll still go if tech makes it (granted, I'll have graduated by then and might be living/working someplace that makes it impossible).

But this makes last second decisions like my trek to albany for the championship game impossible, regardless of my start point (Dryden or Potsdam).

Killer
I think Harvard's behind this. They can't draw a crowd anywhere, so why not put the tournamant in a place where no one is likely to draw a crowd, thereby leveling the playing field?

Ken Schott, Schenectady Gazette: "The other problem is that some the teams don't travel well. Harvard doesn't have a dedicated fan base. Princeton may bring about 50 fans."

Josh '99
I'm a little confused - do people think AC is easier to get to from NYC than Albany? For example, from Adam's article (not singling you out, but I happen to have the window open so it's easiest):

And for every local or student that was going, there will -- theoretically -- be alumni of all ECAC schools in the New York City area who now have it much easier to attend.

How is that the case? The drive is almost the same - 130 miles to AC, 150 miles to Albany, so it's a little bit closer, but there's also some stupid traffic on the local roads that take you into AC from the Parkway that mitigate that difference. Both are accessible by train or bus. As far as travel, it's basically a wash.

They have the train which is "direct" to Atlantic City (actually goes through Philly I think, but you dont need to switch to NJ Transit like you had to in the past) which is how I will get there!

I haven't been to Atlantic City in 16 years, but since I grew up in NJ, I spent 3 weekends there while in high school for the 3 years I was in All-State Orchestra. This was in November, and I can imagine the weather will be pretty similar in March. I found it to be a)economically depressed, b) depressing, c)cloudy and cold, d) depressing, and e) have I mentioned it was depressing?

We stayed right on the Boardwalk and walked up and down it to get to rehearsal, so I can't claim we were isolated on the outskirts of town. Most businesses were closed because it was the off-season, and it looked like a ghost town. Being in high school, of course we couldn't go to casinos or bars, but I remember looking at them and thinking they looked so tacky I would never want to go there.

The thought of going to the tourny is Atlantic City is, frankly, depressing. I hope that things have improved in the last 2 decades, but I'm not sure I have any desire to find out.

If the requirements are casino and far away from the schools, can we go to Las Vegas instead of AC?

I grew up in NJ also and have to say I was of the same opinion on AC until I went there for the first time in also about 15 years this July. The town has really made a nice comeback. It's not the AC I knew as a little kid. Of course, I was there in midsummer when everything was going on, but still, there's nice, new infrastructure, casinos that looked decidedly less tacky, etc. Personally, I love the beach in the winter - it's got a very cool feel and even mid-March, it's not unheard of to get a day with high temps in the 60s and sunshine. All in all, I had the same first reaction - UGH, but I think it's worth a shot. Albany was not a good permanent solution, though geographically convenient. This might at least create a little buzz and convince people to make a weekend out of it like Lake Placid did. Of course, Lake Placid had a lot more winter sports history going for it, but I'm willing to give it a chance. Pretty easy to get there too - hop a plane to philly and take the train over or take the ACES train from NYC.

I think this blows. It will be virtually impossible for me to leave Friday morning, pick up my dad, and get there in time for the first semifinal, which means I need to take an additional day off for travel.

What was all that wrong with Albany that motivated the move? It had several decent pubs, a plethora of cheap hotels, and was far more centrally located for the league. Furthermore, downtown is *dead* on the weekends because Albany is 90% government, so it was pretty much a downtown-wide hockey convention, a trait I found enormously appealing. I feel like the shared ECAC experience will get lost in the bustle of Atlantic City.

Okay, I'm done bitching: one message is enough. Life gives lemons; make lemonade. I'm sure I will still have fun.

Hard to believe but the ECAC is making us nostalgic for being in Albany.

judy
If the requirements are casino and far away from the schools, can we go to Las Vegas instead of AC?

Lots of European cities have casinos...

If we just need a place with a casino, I suggest Montreal. Half the players are Canadian, anyway.

And now for some Sun bashing...

This article says that the tournament will be in AC starting in 2010.

Kyle Rose
I feel like the shared ECAC experience will get lost in the bustle of Atlantic City.

Honest question (never having been to AC): how much "bustle" will there really be in March?

Upon further consideration (of AC), I'll probably get back into the mode of going to the ECAC tourney only if Cornell is playing in it. That's the way it worked for us when it was in Boston....We absolutely loved going to Boston, but back in those days, money limitations kept us home if Cornell didn't go.

With the tourney in Albany, we went every year; CU or no.

There is a link on this page (currently at the top) [www.foxsports980.com] of an audio interview with Ken Schott (Schenectady Gazette) about the move.

There is a rather long musical intro.

jtwcornell91

judy
If the requirements are casino and far away from the schools, can we go to Las Vegas instead of AC?

Lots of European cities have casinos...

...like Monaco? I've never been to Monaco!

judy

jtwcornell91

judy
If the requirements are casino and far away from the schools, can we go to Las Vegas instead of AC?

Lots of European cities have casinos...

...like Monaco? I've never been to Monaco!

That would expand the dating pool.

My only experience in AC was singing at the Bicentennial, 35 years ago (shiver). It was a hole. But then again Vegas was a hole 20 years ago and now it's great.

I suppose we can chant "we're all in New Jersey."

I'm not a huge fan of this in general, but for my own selfish purposes, it works out pretty nicely

Must admit, I'm pretty shocked looking at the mileage differences according to Google, NYC->Albany vs. NYC-AC ... in fact, it's pretty hard to believe.

Anecdotally speaking, I'm willing to guarantee the amount of time it takes to get to one vs. the other will be significantly different than the mileage would suggest. And I'm taking into account the potential for traffic ... because, after all, try getting out of NYC going in EITHER direction. I'd say, it's much worse trying to head north via midtown or lower Manhattan than it would be heading down the Jersey shore in March. If you're in Lower Manhattan, you go through the tunnel, and once you're through, just shoot down the Parkway. It's a much tougher venture going North from there.

Furthermore, "New York City area" implies more than just Manhattan - it includes Jersey itself.

Not that this is a reason in and of itself to defend the move -- just addressing the part about mileage differences.

Robb

Kyle Rose
I feel like the shared ECAC experience will get lost in the bustle of Atlantic City.

Honest question (never having been to AC): how much "bustle" will there really be in March?

You could get some glorious sunny days and maybe be in a T-shirt in the afternoon Saturday. I'm betting on cool, gray, windy, and light rain. A lot of the boardwalk doesn't come alive until May. So you're kind of stuck finding things to do indoors and that's not easy if the group isn't all over 21. Have you ever seen the New Jersey pine barrens? That would be your very last resort, just ahead of putting your head in a gas oven. No environmentalist ever chained himself to a scraggly pine tree in protest of logging.

But if you arrive just in time for Friday's game and sleep in Saturday morning, all you've really got to do is amuse yourself for about 5 hours Saturday afternoon.

Trust me, even if AC isn't as 'bustling' in March, you'll far prefer it to having to deal with Jersey shore/Parkway traffic in June/July/August.

It's an interesting experiment. I doubt that they'd still be there in 2014. But it'll be a fun experiment for 3 years.

DeltaOne81
It's an interesting experiment. I doubt that they'd still be there in 2014. But it'll be a fun experiment for 3 years.

Let's hope that's all it is (a 3 year experiment).

After that, we can look forward to the gamblers complaining when it gets moved to some other illogical place.... Something to look forward to!!!

We've done the Cape Cod trek over the Bourne Bridge and it's about as bad as taking the Garden State Parkway to the NJ Shore. Pretty close as to which state has worse drivers. No contest on ruder drivers. Only New Jersey has an Official State Gesture.

For me in NJ, it's 1:45 to Atlantic City vs. 2:30 to Albany. But much as this conveniences me, I'd rather the game be closer to the epicenter of Eastern hockey, which probably is Albany. Interesting exercise: What is the geographic epicenter, the student population weighted epicenter, the team winning percentage epicenter. Let's steal back some of those teraflops wasted predicting the weather.

The hub of eastern hockey not just ECACHL hockey really has to be Boston. As long as we're not in Boston Garden, we're the other show in the East. The other logical showcase place is Madison Square Garden but it has all those stupid college basketball games in March.

Trotsky

judy

jtwcornell91

judy
If the requirements are casino and far away from the schools, can we go to Las Vegas instead of AC?

Lots of European cities have casinos...

...like Monaco? I've never been to Monaco!

That would expand the dating pool.

My only experience in AC was singing at the Bicentennial, 35 years ago (shiver). It was a hole. But then again Vegas was a hole 20 years ago and now it's great.

I suppose we can chant "we're all in New Jersey."

[thread drift] Oh, gawd, the Bicentennial. A curse for cub reporters who spent a year covering dopey local stories whenever a town painted its hydrants red-white-blue or renamed Maple Lane to Bicentennial Way. I fear that we'll live enough to see the Semiquincentennial (or Bicenquinquagenary) which doesn't roll off the tongue. I have a favorite Beetle Bailey cartoon from the 1976 era where, in Campy Swampy, circus animals escape, MPs chase a robber, other bizarre things happen, and General Halftrack walks by and mutters, "Must have something to do with the Bicentennial."

As for gambling sites, let's hope Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun doesn't plan a rink.

billhoward
I fear that we'll live enough to see the Semiquincentennial (or Bicenquinquagenary) which doesn't roll off the tongue.

I'm sure as hell shooting to be around for the Tricentennial.

adamw
Furthermore, "New York City area" implies more than just Manhattan - it includes Jersey itself.

Granted, but by the same logic, it also includes Westchester and Rockland Counties, which are closer to Albany, just as it includes NNJ, which is closer to AC.

Robb

Kyle Rose
I feel like the shared ECAC experience will get lost in the bustle of Atlantic City.

Honest question (never having been to AC): how much "bustle" will there really be in March?

There will be bustle. Gambling is not weather-dependent.

jaybert

Josh '99
I'm a little confused - do people think AC is easier to get to from NYC than Albany? For example, from Adam's article (not singling you out, but I happen to have the window open so it's easiest):

And for every local or student that was going, there will -- theoretically -- be alumni of all ECAC schools in the New York City area who now have it much easier to attend.

How is that the case? The drive is almost the same - 130 miles to AC, 150 miles to Albany, so it's a little bit closer, but there's also some stupid traffic on the local roads that take you into AC from the Parkway that mitigate that difference. Both are accessible by train or bus. As far as travel, it's basically a wash.

They have the train which is "direct" to Atlantic City (actually goes through Philly I think, but you dont need to switch to NJ Transit like you had to in the past) which is how I will get there!

And Amtrak goes direct from NYC to Albany. I still think it's basically a wash in the travel-from-NYC department.

(But yes, that's probably how I will get there too.)

KeithK

billhoward
I fear that we'll live enough to see the Semiquincentennial (or Bicenquinquagenary) which doesn't roll off the tongue.

I'm sure as hell shooting to be around for the Tricentennial.

But I've seen hockey and lax championships. Not just championship games. Hopefully you've got enough years left.

Scary to realize that for someone in school now, thinking back to the lax and hockey titles era of 1967-77, that it's as ancient as it was for people at Cornell in the Dryden-Rimmer-French years to hear about the Fifth Down game played on the eve of World War II. As it was for the Fifth Down fans to think back to those unbeaten teams pre-World War I. We may be slowly curing the black-white-yellow and male-female divides, but it's so damn hard to look at some geezer on the field at halftime celebrating a 50 year old accomplishment, and see him as once young, too ... or yourself as that old someday.

billhoward
But much as this conveniences me, I'd rather the game be closer to the epicenter of Eastern hockey, which probably is Albany. Interesting exercise: What is the geographic epicenter, the student population weighted epicenter, the team winning percentage epicenter.

Well, the center is certainly not AC. A quick google map measure gives the average school to Albany distance as 137 mi., while the AC distance is 300 mi. Talk about lack of students at the games.

The hub of eastern hockey not just ECACHL hockey really has to be Boston. As long as we're not in Boston Garden, we're the other show in the East.

Way back when I was a student it was 350 mi. for the trip to Boston. Aside from the NC schools, that may have been the longest trip back then, but damn we were going to Boston, not AC. The trip was "long" but exciting. We were going to a place where hockey mattered, AC ugh.


I'd rather go back to trying to share Boston, even if it meant we played semis on Thursday and finals Sat afternoon. I know that would be bad for students, but it would make a hell of a weekend.

billhoward

KeithK

billhoward
I fear that we'll live enough to see the Semiquincentennial (or Bicenquinquagenary) which doesn't roll off the tongue.

I'm sure as hell shooting to be around for the Tricentennial.

But I've seen hockey and lax championships. Not just championship games. Hopefully you've got enough years left.

Scary to realize that for someone in school now, thinking back to the lax and hockey titles era of 1967-77, that it's as ancient as it was for people at Cornell in the Dryden-Rimmer-French years to hear about the Fifth Down game played on the eve of World War II. As it was for the Fifth Down fans to think back to those unbeaten teams pre-World War I. We may be slowly curing the black-white-yellow and male-female divides, but it's so damn hard to look at some geezer on the field at halftime celebrating a 50 year old accomplishment, and see him as once young, too ... or yourself as that old someday.

OK. Good to see billhoward is in mid-season ruminating form already...

Kyle Rose
What was all that wrong with Albany that motivated the move?

8000 people last year seems like pretty good motivation. For that matter, what was wrong with Placid that motivated that move? Dollars and cents (probably more cents than dollars) motivated those moves and the same is true here.

Jim Hyla
I'd rather go back to trying to share Boston, even if it meant we played semis on Thursday and finals Sat afternoon. I know that would be bad for students, but it would make a hell of a weekend.

It'd be worse for people with jobs too.

CowbellGuy

Kyle Rose
What was all that wrong with Albany that motivated the move?

8000 people last year seems like pretty good motivation. For that matter, what was wrong with Placid that motivated that move? Dollars and cents (probably more cents than dollars) motivated those moves and the same is true here.

They were worried when the attendance dropped from 16,217 to 8,104 last year, so the go to a building that holds 10,300 for hockey? Maybe they are counting on the fact that not many students will show up.


If Cornell goes a long way this year and is high in the league next year, they might do well. However, if not, who is going to bring all those fans there?

Josh '99

jaybert
They have the train which is "direct" to Atlantic City (actually goes through Philly I think, but you dont need to switch to NJ Transit like you had to in the past) which is how I will get there!

And Amtrak goes direct from NYC to Albany. I still think it's basically a wash in the travel-from-NYC department.

(But yes, that's probably how I will get there too.)

It doesn't go *through* Philly, but it does go near it (into Pa). The only stops are NYC, Newark, & AC though (there's separate service from Phily 30th St Station to AC).

However, I thought of this myself, and currently the "ACES" (AC Express Service) train only runs Fri, Sat, & Sun, and not early enough Friday train to make both the semis.

In a year and a half that may change (it's brand new and has been fairly popular once it got noticed), but if not, a AC bus will be required on the way down, then you can take the train back up.

Jeff Hopkins '82
Personally, this is great for me. I get to save a half-day vacation (2 hours versus 3½ hours drive). There are much better locations for me to go birdwatching when there's no hockey to watch. The only downside is having to drive through downtown Philly to get there, but since I'll be doing it at lunchtime, no biggie.

But geez Jeff- you'd hire a Sherpa with a yak and go if it was played on a mountaintop in Central Asia. What's the point of making it easy for you???

billhoward

Killer
I think Harvard's behind this. They can't draw a crowd anywhere, so why not put the tournamant in a place where no one is likely to draw a crowd, thereby leveling the playing field?

Ken Schott, Schenectady Gazette: "The other problem is that some the teams don't travel well. Harvard doesn't have a dedicated fan base. Princeton may bring about 50 fans."

Has anybody brought up the fact that last spring's attendance in Albany was held down by the fact that it wasn't just Princeton? None of the three other teams in it with us "travel well?"

redice
After that, we can look forward to the gamblers complaining when it gets moved to some other illogical place...

Since it seems to be moving in an ever-expanding counter-clockwise spiral, the next stop should be Bermuda.

Trotsky

redice
After that, we can look forward to the gamblers complaining when it gets moved to some other illogical place...

Since it seems to be moving in an ever-expanding counter-clockwise spiral, the next stop should be Bermuda.

Maybe that would get students there, assuming championship weekend still falls on Cornell's spring break.

billhoward
We've done the Cape Cod trek over the Bourne Bridge and it's about as bad as taking the Garden State Parkway to the NJ Shore. Pretty close as to which state has worse drivers. No contest on ruder drivers. Only New Jersey has an Official State Gesture.

I've done the Bourne Bridge and GSP - and there's no comparison between summer, and how it is in March. You can breeze around the GSP and NJ Turnpike in March. I do it all the time. That won't be an issue leaving NYC.

On the other hand, a couple years ago, it took 6 hrs to get to Albany from Central NJ because of a blizzard.

Trotsky

redice
After that, we can look forward to the gamblers complaining when it gets moved to some other illogical place...

Since it seems to be moving in an ever-expanding counter-clockwise spiral, the next stop should be Bermuda.

Little known fact about Cornell hockey: Cornell once had a goalie from Bermuda, so this wouldn't be totally inappropriate ...

ACM

Trotsky

redice
After that, we can look forward to the gamblers complaining when it gets moved to some other illogical place...

Since it seems to be moving in an ever-expanding counter-clockwise spiral, the next stop should be Bermuda.

Little known fact about Cornell hockey: Cornell once had a goalie from Bermuda, so this wouldn't be totally inappropriate ...

Like, actually from Bermuda, or from Bermuda like Jason Elliott was from Australia? Because as far as I can figure, there are no ice rinks in Bermuda. (Which is too bad, because we would ALL go if Cornell were playing a hockey game there.)

adamw
On the other hand, a couple years ago, it took 6 hrs to get to Albany from Central NJ because of a blizzard.

And the same blizzard would probably cause it to take a comparably long time to get to AC from Ithaca or Troy or Potsdam or Canton or Hamilton or Schenectady (hahahahah as if Union will ever get that far in the playoffs). That isn't a travel risk that's specific to Albany, that's a travel risk that's all over the Northeast in the winter/very early spring.

I used to believe tournament sites were chosen based on where the hockey or league committee wouldn't mind spending a long weekend, and not worrying about how many seats in the building, since they had theirs. Thus scenic Lake Placid for the 1970 NCAA championships. Or Colorado Springs way back in post WWII days on successive years. This would not explain Syracuse in 1967 or 1971. Sometimes site choices also applied to where the commissioner wouldn't mind living. For instance, the ECAC moving to Cape Cod back when there was an ECAC football league that carried some weight.

Can any conspiracy theorists see in this a reason for Atlantic City other than, "We ran out of places to try"?

Josh '99

ACM

Trotsky

redice
After that, we can look forward to the gamblers complaining when it gets moved to some other illogical place...

Since it seems to be moving in an ever-expanding counter-clockwise spiral, the next stop should be Bermuda.

Little known fact about Cornell hockey: Cornell once had a goalie from Bermuda, so this wouldn't be totally inappropriate ...

Like, actually from Bermuda, or from Bermuda like Jason Elliott was from Australia? Because as far as I can figure, there are no ice rinks in Bermuda. (Which is too bad, because we would ALL go if Cornell were playing a hockey game there.)

Hey, if Jamaica can have a bobsled team...

billhoward
Can any conspiracy theorists see in this a reason for Atlantic City other than, "We ran out of places to try"?

"Venues were competing for our business and Boardwalk Hall submitted a competitive bid."

Josh '99

adamw
On the other hand, a couple years ago, it took 6 hrs to get to Albany from Central NJ because of a blizzard.

And the same blizzard would probably cause it to take a comparably long time to get to AC from Ithaca or Troy or Potsdam or Canton or Hamilton or Schenectady (hahahahah as if Union will ever get that far in the playoffs). That isn't a travel risk that's specific to Albany, that's a travel risk that's all over the Northeast in the winter/very early spring.

Well, we were talking about the relative drive-ability from the NYC area. So that blizzard would not have affected the drive to AC nearly as much, if at all.

adamw

Josh '99

adamw
On the other hand, a couple years ago, it took 6 hrs to get to Albany from Central NJ because of a blizzard.

And the same blizzard would probably cause it to take a comparably long time to get to AC from Ithaca or Troy or Potsdam or Canton or Hamilton or Schenectady (hahahahah as if Union will ever get that far in the playoffs). That isn't a travel risk that's specific to Albany, that's a travel risk that's all over the Northeast in the winter/very early spring.

Well, we were talking about the relative drive-ability from the NYC area. So that blizzard would not have affected the drive to AC nearly as much, if at all.

Adam, you can put the what if's all you want; but the fact remains that for the huge majority of ECAC fans it is going to be a lot harder to get to AC.

Jim Hyla

adamw

Josh '99

adamw
On the other hand, a couple years ago, it took 6 hrs to get to Albany from Central NJ because of a blizzard.

And the same blizzard would probably cause it to take a comparably long time to get to AC from Ithaca or Troy or Potsdam or Canton or Hamilton or Schenectady (hahahahah as if Union will ever get that far in the playoffs). That isn't a travel risk that's specific to Albany, that's a travel risk that's all over the Northeast in the winter/very early spring.

Well, we were talking about the relative drive-ability from the NYC area. So that blizzard would not have affected the drive to AC nearly as much, if at all.

Adam, you can put the what if's all you want; but the fact remains that for the huge majority of ECAC fans it is going to be a lot harder to get to AC.

I don't see that. Not among those most likely to actually attend. Even for local Ithaca fans - what place other than Albany that was being considered would be that much easier to get to? A few others are nominally closer - but not any easier. Since it's 3 1/2 from Ithaca to my house - and 1 1/2 from my house to AC ... that's 5 hrs from Ithaca to AC, tops. Where else is closer?

Well, let's see. Which schools will travel further to AC than to Albany: Dartmouth, Harvard, Brown, Yale, Quinnipiac, Union, RPI, Clarkson, St. Lawrence, Cornell, and Colgate. Which school will travel a shorter distance to AC than Albany: Princeton. Guess it's pretty much a toss-up.

adamw
Well, we were talking about the relative drive-ability from the NYC area. So that blizzard would not have affected the drive to AC nearly as much, if at all.

OK, you're right. But the fact that that particular storm made it difficult to drive from NJ to Albany, but wouldn't have if you were going to AC, doesn't preclude other storms from making it difficult for many people to drive to AC, but not if they were going to Albany.

And, I mean, if we're talking about the NYC area, then let's talk about NYC and not central NJ.

Al DeFlorio
Well, let's see. Which schools will travel further to AC than to Albany: Dartmouth, Harvard, Brown, Yale, Quinnipiac, Union, RPI, Clarkson, St. Lawrence, Cornell, and Colgate. Which school will travel a shorter distance to AC than Albany: Princeton. Guess it's pretty much a toss-up.

For one, the discussion assumed Albany was out of the picture. ... Two, I was only talking about Ithaca->AC vs. Ithaca->any other realistic location.

That said, I'll venture that there are at least as many alums that live closer to AC than their schools, willing to go to AC - than there are locals and students willing to go to other locations (Providence, Lake Placid, Bridgeport, etc...). And that's really what we're talking about here -- because I don't see students of any of the schools you mention clamoring to go to the ECACs.

Josh '99

adamw
Well, we were talking about the relative drive-ability from the NYC area. So that blizzard would not have affected the drive to AC nearly as much, if at all.

OK, you're right. But the fact that that particular storm made it difficult to drive from NJ to Albany, but wouldn't have if you were going to AC, doesn't preclude other storms from making it difficult for many people to drive to AC, but not if they were going to Albany.

And, I mean, if we're talking about the NYC area, then let's talk about NYC and not central NJ.

Well, I was talking about NYC in general - I was just saying how long it took me from Central NJ for the sake of journalistic accuracy, since I didn't drive through NYC on that trip ...

Also - since I've barely seen a snowflake here in 2 years - the odds of that storm affecting a drive to AC is a lot lot less than to Albany.

adamw
For one, the discussion assumed Albany was out of the picture.

Really? You were comparing the drive from northern New Jersey to AC vs. Albany. Here's a direct quote from you in a weak response to the first time you were called out for your distorted (blizzard?) comparison: "Well, we were talking about the relative drive-ability from the NYC area. So that blizzard would not have affected the drive to AC nearly as much [as it did the drive to Albany], if at all."

adamw

Jim Hyla
Adam, you can put the what if's all you want; but the fact remains that for the huge majority of ECAC fans it is going to be a lot harder to get to AC.

I don't see that. Not among those most likely to actually attend. Even for local Ithaca fans - what place other than Albany that was being considered would be that much easier to get to? A few others are nominally closer - but not any easier. Since it's 3 1/2 from Ithaca to my house - and 1 1/2 from my house to AC ... that's 5 hrs from Ithaca to AC, tops. Where else is closer?

I was under the impression that Albany still wanted us. Is that not true? As I posted before " A quick google map measure gives the average school to Albany distance as 137 mi., while the AC distance is 300 mi." If you want to look at schools that travel well, you have to consider us, Clarkson, maybe SLU, and the rest. Certainly this decision is worse for all of the above. I can't imagine the average NC fan driving there.

Al DeFlorio

adamw
For one, the discussion assumed Albany was out of the picture.

Really? You were comparing the drive from northern New Jersey to AC vs. Albany. Here's a direct quote from you in a weak response to the first time you were called out for your distorted (blizzard?) comparison: "Well, we were talking about the relative drive-ability from the NYC area. So that blizzard would not have affected the drive to AC nearly as much [as it did the drive to Albany], if at all."

You're mixing conversations - but if you insist, that's ok. not going to argue with you - particularly if you're going to be hostile about it.

Jim Hyla

adamw

Jim Hyla
Adam, you can put the what if's all you want; but the fact remains that for the huge majority of ECAC fans it is going to be a lot harder to get to AC.

I don't see that. Not among those most likely to actually attend. Even for local Ithaca fans - what place other than Albany that was being considered would be that much easier to get to? A few others are nominally closer - but not any easier. Since it's 3 1/2 from Ithaca to my house - and 1 1/2 from my house to AC ... that's 5 hrs from Ithaca to AC, tops. Where else is closer?

I was under the impression that Albany still wanted us. Is that not true? As I posted before " A quick google map measure gives the average school to Albany distance as 137 mi., while the AC distance is 300 mi." If you want to look at schools that travel well, you have to consider us, Clarkson, maybe SLU, and the rest. Certainly this decision is worse for all of the above. I can't imagine the average NC fan driving there.

Albany still wanted it - but the ECAC was not going to stay there given the attendance decline. So my point was, given the other options, what's better to get to?

It's true, the average NC fan - that lives in the NC - will not drive there. No one is denying that. Now I ask, how many of them drove to Albany the last couple years - with SLU and Clarkson at Albany? Not many. How many SLU/Clarkson fans that live near NYC/NJ will go to AC? Who knows. But I'm suggesting it will be at least as many. How many Cornell fans showed up at MSG? 13,000? How many showed up in Albany? 4,000? AC is not MSG, obviously - but just sayin'

Providence, Bridgeport and Hartford are "better to get to" for Dartmouth, Harvard, Brown, Yale, and Quinnipiac; comparable for RPI, Union, Clarkson, and St. Lawrence; marginally more difficult for Cornell and Colgate; and clearly more difficult for Princeton.

This, of course, is not to mention that Rhode Island and eastern Massachusetts are hotbeds of college hockey. Who on the Jersey shore gives a hoot?