"Fighting Sioux" nickname may [not] [may too] stick at N Dakota

Facing pushback rather than acquiesence from the University of North Dakota, the NCAA said it might be okay to keep using the Fighting Sioux nickname if two Indian tribes signed off on keeping the name. The first of the two tribes voted by a 2-1 margin with the North Dakota side.

AP story

IIRC, when Cornell played ND last fall, cornellbigred.com opted to take the PC side of things and rather than use the opponent school's nickname or mascot logo on the pre-game story promo photo as it does with other schools, just overprinted "North Dakota" in green lettering.

[Edit add: Sorry for posting in the Cornell hockey forum. Realized the mistake after hittimg Send.]

Or maybe it won't: UND's Fighting Sioux nickname going away, following a vote by the North Dakota Board of Higher Education. I wonder how much of a role the inability to host regionals at the Ralph played in this.

The transition will likely include removing thousands of Sioux logos built into the floors and walls of the Ralph Englestad Arena in Grand Forks.

That is NOT going to be an easy project.

They should keep their logos, call themselves the Fightin' Rorschachs and tell the NCAA that if it sees an offensive image, that's its own subconsciousness' fault.

ftyuv
They should keep their logos, call themselves the Fightin' Rorschachs and tell the NCAA that if it sees an offensive image, that's its own subconsciousness' fault.

I'd take that for a mascot.

I haven't seen this posted. From the NYTimes 12/18, thelawsuit by some tribal members to retain the nickname was thrown out. The decision remains with the State Board of Higher Education. Next meeting is 1/21 in Grand Forks. Nice, it's right before they play us. Maybe a distraction?

Jim Hyla
I haven't seen this posted. From the NYTimes 12/18, thelawsuit by some tribal members to retain the nickname was thrown out. The decision remains with the State Board of Higher Education. Next meeting is 1/21 in Grand Forks. Nice, it's right before they play us. Maybe a distraction?

Or the opposite: a cause worth fighting for?

(The AP story Jim cites says the court sees the issue in pretty simple terms. The biggest one is whether the North Dakota Board of Higher Education's charter to oversee higher education in North Dakota means what it says. Court says it does.)

Maybe this??

I wonder if they'll call themselves the Ralphs.

And the magnetic stripe debit feature on student IDs will no longer be call wampum.

But it's still okay to call Notre Dame the Fighting Irish on account of what Mel Brooks said in Blazing Saddles.

And while we're on the subject (although getting more and more OT)...

[sports.espn.go.com]

For those unfamiliar, here's the logo the NCAA finds offensive:

[www.sportslogos.net]

Edit: Didn't realize how old this story was... but the selection of the Griffin is the current news. Sorry guys.

ugarte
I wonder if they'll call themselves the Ralphs.

I would find that offensive.

Wow, you should check out the siouxsports forum. Quite the discussion there.

Greenberg '97
For those unfamiliar, here's the logo the NCAA finds offensive:

[www.sportslogos.net]

My god, feathers! How did they sleep at night?

French Rage

Greenberg '97
For those unfamiliar, here's the logo the NCAA finds offensive:

[www.sportslogos.net]

My god, feathers! How did they sleep at night?

My bird was very upset with that logo. It is now much happier.

And indeed as mentioned on USCHO, the Grand Forks Herald reports that they get at least another year.

Story says an offical of the state board of education, which holds sway over ND, was looking for a closed meeting with the NCAA to further discuss the matter - since called off by the legislature's statement of inent - and had to be reminded that since it's a state body and it's not a criminal matter or personnel matter, the meeting that wasn't held with the NCAA had to be open. That a matter is controversial is exactly the reason why there should be open meetings.

Regardless, we've already seen the Fighting Sioux logo exorcised by various groups who've already made their own judgment calls. When UND came here to play a couple years back, the Photoshop creation Cornell built to promote the event online used a stylized "ND" rather than the ND mascot. Most other times Cornell uses Big Red Bears and (Fighting?) Quakers and BU Terriers.

Whether the logo really is offensive, it's fun to see how good a job various groups in North Dakota have done thumbing their noses at the outside world. Maybe Wagner College on Staten Island should be the Fighting Mafioso and I'd love to see that logo and mascot.

Motto: "They look like guys who can get things done."

It's been done.

Trotsky
It's been done.

hitmen150.gif

Awesome.

I still miss the Danbury Trashers:

That's racist.

Trotsky
That's racist.

The (edit) Oscar the Grouch lobby isn't big enough for anyone to care.

Clearly (at least) this part of my brain has atrophied.

Grand Forks Herald reports that the NCAA is sticking to the 2007 agreement. UND will face sanctions for continuing the Sioux mascot.

The Gopher fan sitting next to me at the Frozen Four said that the U. of Minnesota has passed a by-law prohibiting its teams from scheduling non-conference games vs. teams with Native American nicknames. He said that if there were no change in the situation, this would prohibit Minnesota from scheduling the Fighting Sioux once Minnesota left the WCHA. Note: this is all hearsay, which I haven't verified.

jkahn
The Gopher fan sitting next to me at the Frozen Four said that the U. of Minnesota has passed a by-law prohibiting its teams from scheduling non-conference games vs. teams with Native American nicknames. He said that if there were no change in the situation, this would prohibit Minnesota from scheduling the Fighting Sioux once Minnesota left the WCHA. Note: this is all hearsay, which I haven't verified.

The Big 10 isn't about to take on Illinois, I see.

ugarte

jkahn
The Gopher fan sitting next to me at the Frozen Four said that the U. of Minnesota has passed a by-law prohibiting its teams from scheduling non-conference games vs. teams with Native American nicknames. He said that if there were no change in the situation, this would prohibit Minnesota from scheduling the Fighting Sioux once Minnesota left the WCHA. Note: this is all hearsay, which I haven't verified.

The Big 10 isn't about to take on Illinois, I see.

And the charity skate with the Chicago Blackhawks is off. Still on is the match vs. the Fighting Irish. Mel Brooks covered the Irish and race/ethnic relations nicely in Blazing Saddles. Sanction and sanctimonious may be the same thoughts.

Trotsky
It's been done.

hitmen150.gif

My two oldest boys played on their '99 and '00 summer teams last year. Nice coaches, a couple are from B.C. I think. The jerseys, though, are hideous. I had 10 and 11 year kids wearing jerseys with simulated bullet holes and a cigar! Not to mention that baby blue color.............

Their tier 3 junior team is pretty good, they're starting to generate some legitimate D-1 prospects.

North Dakota and N.C.A.A. Are at Odds Again Over University’s Sioux Mascot

"University officials hope that a meeting later this month in Indianapolis between Mr. Dalrymple, legislative leaders and N.C.A.A. officials will help resolve the conflict. As it stands, if the university continues to use the name after Aug. 15, its athletics program would face penalties that could jeopardize much-lauded plans to join the Big Sky Conference."

I wonder if a condition for becoming a member of the new hockey "Super Conference" was to not raise a stink about mascots or nicknames

But maybe it won't stick. NCAA reports that North Dakota plans to retire nickname.

Jim Hyla
But maybe it won't stick. NCAA reports that North Dakota plans to retire nickname.

MCAA might have resolved this sooner but for dealing with Jim Tressel and other tangental enforcement issues.

This, if the NCAA is really serious about it, may be of more significance: [www.ncaa.org]

I was watching CNN news at 10 last night. They had a segment on this topic, and what was one of the background films showing? UND scoring a goal against us!

Al DeFlorio
This, if the NCAA is really serious about it, may be of more significance: [www.ncaa.org]

While it would be great if the NCAA was serious, this is more likely a case of "I'm shocked to find gambling going on here."

Trotsky

Al DeFlorio
This, if the NCAA is really serious about it, may be of more significance: [www.ncaa.org]

While it would be great if the NCAA was serious, this is more likely a case of "I'm shocked to find gambling going on here."

Exactly. My thought was, "This too shall pass." David Skorton may run Cornell, but Auburn or LSU or Baylor may be like a South American dictatorship where El Presidente dances, or swings, to the generals' tune. Maryland's basketball graduation rate was 8% (that would be 1 player), Kentucky 31%. Alas, Duke was at 90%+.

North Dakota to discontinue Fighting Sioux nickname, logo, effective Jan. 1

[www.uscho.com]

nyc94
North Dakota to discontinue Fighting Sioux nickname, logo, effective Jan. 1

[www.uscho.com]

The best response by the university would be to never pick another nickname. Everybody would still call them the Sioux but the university couldn't be held liable and it would essentially be a big F.U. to the NC$$.

Trotsky

nyc94
North Dakota to discontinue Fighting Sioux nickname, logo, effective Jan. 1

[www.uscho.com]

The best response by the university would be to never pick another nickname. Everybody would still call them the Sioux but the university couldn't be held liable and it would essentially be a big F.U. to the NC$$.

With the added benefit that it continues to offend a good portion of the Sioux people?

Roy 82

Trotsky

nyc94
North Dakota to discontinue Fighting Sioux nickname, logo, effective Jan. 1

[www.uscho.com]

The best response by the university would be to never pick another nickname. Everybody would still call them the Sioux but the university couldn't be held liable and it would essentially be a big F.U. to the NC$$.

With the added benefit that it continues to offend a good portion of the Sioux people?

Leave the ND nickname blank and it's 1993-2000 all over again with the artist formerly known as Prince.

Currently they have not chosen another name and they are asking to simply be referred to as North Dakota (that's not likely, too many syllables for play by play and other announcer types for continued use). As well, via twitter, the ice hockey team will continue to wear to Sioux jerseys until late in the season as the new ones will not be ready until then.

munchkin
Currently they have not chosen another name and they are asking to simply be referred to as North Dakota (that's not likely, too many syllables for play by play and other announcer types for continued use). As well, via twitter, the ice hockey team will continue to wear to Sioux jerseys until late in the season as the new ones will not be ready until then.

I read somewhere the the legislature (the same one that enacted a law requiring the Sioux name be retained back in March) passed a bill that prohibits NoDak from having a nickname at all until at least January 2015 to allow the dust to settle.

The North Dakota Sue. Have a lawyer on skates.

A sad day. Political correctness wins again.

CUontheslopes
A sad day. Political correctness wins again.

Yes, how sad that a large, powerful institution will no longer be using a grossly outdated racial caricature to promote their profit-making athletics enterprise. Here, have a hanky.

Beeeej

CUontheslopes
A sad day. Political correctness wins again.

Yes, how sad that a large, powerful institution will no longer be using a grossly outdated racial caricature to promote their profit-making athletics enterprise. Here, have a hanky.

But it fit so nicely with UND being generally evil. As evil as you can get in college hockey, anyway.

Ben

Beeeej

CUontheslopes
A sad day. Political correctness wins again.

Yes, how sad that a large, powerful institution will no longer be using a grossly outdated racial caricature to promote their profit-making athletics enterprise. Here, have a hanky.

But it fit so nicely with UND being generally evil. As evil as you can get in college hockey, anyway.

Really? I never got that impression from them. Maine? Evil. Minnesota? Evil. But UND?

Kyle Rose

Ben

Beeeej

CUontheslopes
A sad day. Political correctness wins again.

Yes, how sad that a large, powerful institution will no longer be using a grossly outdated racial caricature to promote their profit-making athletics enterprise. Here, have a hanky.

But it fit so nicely with UND being generally evil. As evil as you can get in college hockey, anyway.

Really? I never got that impression from them. Maine? Evil. Minnesota? Evil. But UND?

Maybe I've been watching too many YouTube videos of them getting away with cheap shots and then starting fights.

Beeeej

CUontheslopes
A sad day. Political correctness wins again.

Yes, how sad that a large, powerful institution will no longer be using a grossly outdated racial caricature to promote their profit-making athletics enterprise. Here, have a hanky.

Or the elected representatives of the people of North Dakota who decided to keep the logo and mascot were forced to change it by the NC$$. If North Dakota and the people of North Dakota wanted to keep it, they should have been allowed to. There's absolutely nothing racist about the term "Fighting Sioux." Let's see the NCAA crack down on the Fighting Irish.

Kyle Rose

Ben

Beeeej

CUontheslopes
A sad day. Political correctness wins again.

Yes, how sad that a large, powerful institution will no longer be using a grossly outdated racial caricature to promote their profit-making athletics enterprise. Here, have a hanky.

But it fit so nicely with UND being generally evil. As evil as you can get in college hockey, anyway.

Really? I never got that impression from them. Maine? Evil. Minnesota? Evil. But UND?

Yeah, I've always had the Goophers much higher on the evil list. After all, can you imagine Minny ever coming to Lynah?

CUontheslopes
There's absolutely nothing racist about the term "Fighting Sioux."

Well, thanks for clearing that up. I'm sorry so many of us were mistaken!

CUontheslopes

Beeeej

CUontheslopes
A sad day. Political correctness wins again.

Yes, how sad that a large, powerful institution will no longer be using a grossly outdated racial caricature to promote their profit-making athletics enterprise. Here, have a hanky.

Or the elected representatives of the people of North Dakota who decided to keep the logo and mascot were forced to change it by the NC$$. If North Dakota and the people of North Dakota wanted to keep it, they should have been allowed to. There's absolutely nothing racist about the term "Fighting Sioux." Let's see the NCAA crack down on the Fighting Irish.

"I am not offended" does not mean the same thing as "that is not racist."

ugarte

CUontheslopes

Beeeej

CUontheslopes
A sad day. Political correctness wins again.

Yes, how sad that a large, powerful institution will no longer be using a grossly outdated racial caricature to promote their profit-making athletics enterprise. Here, have a hanky.

Or the elected representatives of the people of North Dakota who decided to keep the logo and mascot were forced to change it by the NC$$. If North Dakota and the people of North Dakota wanted to keep it, they should have been allowed to. There's absolutely nothing racist about the term "Fighting Sioux." Let's see the NCAA crack down on the Fighting Irish.

"I am not offended" does not mean the same thing as "that is not racist."

In this case, whether or not the name is "racist" is a subjective question. There's no element of racial discrimination that one could point to. The school's depiction of their name and logo has always been (at least AFAIK) respectful, not like Chief Wahoo of Cleveland. Some supporters think that the nickname honors the Sioux tribe and at least at some point the Sioux nation (or one of them) agreed. Some may think that any use of Indian imagery or names is inherently racist but there are others who disagree. Reasonable minds can differ.

Kyle Rose

Ben

Beeeej

CUontheslopes
A sad day. Political correctness wins again.

Yes, how sad that a large, powerful institution will no longer be using a grossly outdated racial caricature to promote their profit-making athletics enterprise. Here, have a hanky.

But it fit so nicely with UND being generally evil. As evil as you can get in college hockey, anyway.

Really? I never got that impression from them. Maine? Evil. Minnesota? Evil. But UND?

I've been to many Frozen Fours, and seeing how entitled and cavalier their fanbase is at those events has cemented them in the "evil" category in my mind. Plus, The Ralph. It's like the Death Star of college hockey.

"That's no moon."

I have an idea. Let's use some ethnic group as an arbitrary opportunity to voice our political opinions. Because that wouldn't be patronizing at all.

I'm sorry but there's nothing subjective about it. Fighting [INSERT PROPER NAME FOR ANY GROUP] is not racist in any way, shape or form. It's not like they're calling them the "Redskins" or, as someone else pointed out, using a caricature like Chief Wahoo. Fighting Sioux is no more offensive than Fighting New Yorkers. Last time I check "Sioux" was not an ethnic slur. The NCAA merely created an overboard rule which happened to catch the Sioux along with less respectful indian mascots.

And I'm happy to give those of you who see it differently the correct lesson - just because you think something IS subjectively offensive, doesn't mean it is or that the rest of society should bend to your opinion. If anytime someone was subjectively offended we apologized, we'd spend 23.5 hrs out of the day apologizing or being quiet for fear of offending someone.

CUontheslopes

Beeeej

CUontheslopes
A sad day. Political correctness wins again.

Yes, how sad that a large, powerful institution will no longer be using a grossly outdated racial caricature to promote their profit-making athletics enterprise. Here, have a hanky.

Or the elected representatives of the people of North Dakota who decided to keep the logo and mascot were forced to change it by the NC$$. If North Dakota and the people of North Dakota wanted to keep it, they should have been allowed to. There's absolutely nothing racist about the term "Fighting Sioux." Let's see the NCAA crack down on the Fighting Irish.

They were forced to change it because they could not get the Sioux (all of the tribes) to agree to let them use it. It doesn't really matter that the non-Sioux were happy about the name. What matters is whether the elected representatives of the Sioux were happy with it. Not all were, so the name goes. Oh well, we'll have to pick on someone else.

Jim Hyla

CUontheslopes

Beeeej

CUontheslopes
A sad day. Political correctness wins again.

Yes, how sad that a large, powerful institution will no longer be using a grossly outdated racial caricature to promote their profit-making athletics enterprise. Here, have a hanky.

Or the elected representatives of the people of North Dakota who decided to keep the logo and mascot were forced to change it by the NC$$. If North Dakota and the people of North Dakota wanted to keep it, they should have been allowed to. There's absolutely nothing racist about the term "Fighting Sioux." Let's see the NCAA crack down on the Fighting Irish.

They were forced to change it because they could not get the Sioux (all of the tribes) to agree to let them use it. It doesn't really matter that the non-Sioux were happy about the name. What matters is whether the elected representatives of the Sioux were happy with it. Not all were, so the name goes. Oh well, we'll have to pick on someone else.

When was the last time all of anyone agreed on anything? Requiring unanimous consent was merely a tactic used by the NCAA to ensure that the name wouldn't stand. I'm not sure you could get the consent of all the states to use the name Fighting Americans.

CUontheslopes
The NCAA merely created an overboard rule which happened to catch the Sioux along with less respectful indian mascots.

I see this issue mostly as a slippery slope problem: I would rather the NCAA just stick to the business of setting standard rules for sports and organizing tournaments, and stay out of the business of promoting political agendas, whatever they are. But maybe that's just me: maybe a monopolistic intercollegiate athletic association should use its dominant market position to foist its majority members' sports-unrelated views on others. UND can of course drop out of the NCAA and go form its own association, right? But that would almost immediately destroy its D1 hockey program, dropping it to the level of the WPI club team overnight. Ah... what a dilemma! Who could possibly have foreseen it?

The lesson people never learn is to be careful about the powers they delegate to a democratic organization they initially view as friendly, because these orgs tend to be captured by special interests unrelated to their founding purposes.

CUontheslopes
I'm sorry but there's nothing subjective about it. Fighting [INSERT PROPER NAME FOR ANY GROUP] is not racist in any way, shape or form. It's not like they're calling them the "Redskins" or, as someone else pointed out, using a caricature like Chief Wahoo. Fighting Sioux is no more offensive than Fighting New Yorkers. Last time I check "Sioux" was not an ethnic slur. The NCAA merely created an overboard rule which happened to catch the Sioux along with less respectful indian mascots.

And I'm happy to give those of you who see it differently the correct lesson - just because you think something IS subjectively offensive, doesn't mean it is or that the rest of society should bend to your opinion. If anytime someone was subjectively offended we apologized, we'd spend 23.5 hrs out of the day apologizing or being quiet for fear of offending someone.

You are a child. A spoiled child who can't play with his toy. In this case, the toy is "the identity of people who aren't him."

Tribal names were, and to a lesser extent are, offensive because they represent an infantilized and romanticized view of a "foreign" culture. That it is possible to heap on extra offense by also using a slur doesn't make the basic idea of using someone else's culture as a symbol of whatever you choose to assign to it inoffensive.

Notre Dame isn't a counterexample. The Notre Dame teams are called "the Fighting Irish" because the Jesuits running the school intentionally appropriated an attempted slur against them.

I can't really be all that upset about Fighting Sioux when a football team in our nations capital uses a blatant racial slur as their name. And let's not even start with Cleveland's baseball team.

ugarte

CUontheslopes
I'm sorry but there's nothing subjective about it. Fighting [INSERT PROPER NAME FOR ANY GROUP] is not racist in any way, shape or form. It's not like they're calling them the "Redskins" or, as someone else pointed out, using a caricature like Chief Wahoo. Fighting Sioux is no more offensive than Fighting New Yorkers. Last time I check "Sioux" was not an ethnic slur. The NCAA merely created an overboard rule which happened to catch the Sioux along with less respectful indian mascots.

And I'm happy to give those of you who see it differently the correct lesson - just because you think something IS subjectively offensive, doesn't mean it is or that the rest of society should bend to your opinion. If anytime someone was subjectively offended we apologized, we'd spend 23.5 hrs out of the day apologizing or being quiet for fear of offending someone.

You are a child. A spoiled child who can't play with his toy. In this case, the toy is "the identity of people who aren't him."

Tribal names were, and to a lesser extent are, offensive because they represent an infantilized and romanticized view of a "foreign" culture. That it is possible to heap on extra offense by also using a slur doesn't make the basic idea of using someone else's culture as a symbol of whatever you choose to assign to it inoffensive.

Notre Dame isn't a counterexample. The Notre Dame teams are called "the Fighting Irish" because the Jesuits running the school intentionally appropriated an attempted slur against them.

HAHA It's amazing Cornell let you out with a degree. You can't disagree rationally, so you instead take to calling names. Excellent analytical strategy. Ooo or perhaps I could say I'm subjectively offended by you calling me a child. That could be a slur! I demand you immediately cease using the world child permanently because you might offend someone. Absurd.

Tribal names are not slurs or inherently offensive. They are descriptive monikers, names for a noun no different than calling a four-leggeed furry critter a "cat." Maybe we could just stop calling people by any names at all for fear of offending someone. If you don't like the Fighting Sioux I can't see how you could abide the blatent racism of a school right in our very conference! UNION DUTCHMEN! How offensive!!!

"Political correctness" is nothing more than a minority of society attempting to exercise a veto on the speech of the majority, which has the effect of chilling speech altogether. If the federal government did what the NCAA is doing, it would likely be unconstitutional.

"A person can find cause to become upset about almost anything if they are looking to be upset about something. Sometimes, though, there really are reasons to be offended, like in the case of the Redskins, but most of the time it's just someone being over-sensitive and needing to relax a little bit and not be too uptight. There are many more things in the world, and in life, to be legitimately upset over instead of a sports team's nick name or mascot."


[voices.yahoo.com]

CUontheslopes

ugarte

CUontheslopes
I'm sorry but there's nothing subjective about it. Fighting [INSERT PROPER NAME FOR ANY GROUP] is not racist in any way, shape or form. It's not like they're calling them the "Redskins" or, as someone else pointed out, using a caricature like Chief Wahoo. Fighting Sioux is no more offensive than Fighting New Yorkers. Last time I check "Sioux" was not an ethnic slur. The NCAA merely created an overboard rule which happened to catch the Sioux along with less respectful indian mascots.

And I'm happy to give those of you who see it differently the correct lesson - just because you think something IS subjectively offensive, doesn't mean it is or that the rest of society should bend to your opinion. If anytime someone was subjectively offended we apologized, we'd spend 23.5 hrs out of the day apologizing or being quiet for fear of offending someone.

You are a child. A spoiled child who can't play with his toy. In this case, the toy is "the identity of people who aren't him."

Tribal names were, and to a lesser extent are, offensive because they represent an infantilized and romanticized view of a "foreign" culture. That it is possible to heap on extra offense by also using a slur doesn't make the basic idea of using someone else's culture as a symbol of whatever you choose to assign to it inoffensive.

Notre Dame isn't a counterexample. The Notre Dame teams are called "the Fighting Irish" because the Jesuits running the school intentionally appropriated an attempted slur against them.

HAHA It's amazing Cornell let you out with a degree. You can't disagree rationally, so you instead take to calling names. Excellent analytical strategy. Ooo or perhaps I could say I'm subjectively offended by you calling me a child. That could be a slur! I demand you immediately cease using the world child permanently because you might offend someone. Absurd.

Tribal names are not slurs or inherently offensive. They are descriptive monikers, names for a noun no different than calling a four-leggeed furry critter a "cat." Maybe we could just stop calling people by any names at all for fear of offending someone. If you don't like the Fighting Sioux I can't see how you could abide the blatent racism of a school right in our very conference! UNION DUTCHMEN! How offensive!!!

"Political correctness" is nothing more than a minority of society attempting to exercise a veto on the speech of the majority, which has the effect of chilling speech altogether. If the federal government did what the NCAA is doing, it would likely be unconstitutional.

At least I bother to read before I respond. Do you have a macro set up for that shit? When I called you a child it was a slur. I get away with it because some of my best kids are children.

I'd like to take a look at the part in bold, from your own screed of stupidity. Then when you realize that you've just - in defense of your point - analogized an entire culture to a cat (another popular choice for naming teams) - I ask you to please turn off the internet for a while.

I believe North Dakota's evil-ness to many stems from having a Nazi-sympathizing benefactor donate $100,000,000 to build a gawdy hockey palace. It was supposed to be $10M - but he got mad over the Sioux issue, so pulled the plug on an across-the-board donation, and pumped it all into the arena instead.

That said, I'd love to see the place some time soon - and the only thing I have against any of them, really, is that their fans complain when every article isn't written about them, or their players don't win every award. There are fans like that everywhere - from my experience, they are just the largest bloc of them.

Also - my understanding is that the NCAA's decision was driven more by the mascots than the name itself.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Redskins isn't the most offensive ... from there, it's a matter of degree, and a matter of personal opinion as to what crosses the line.

CUontheslopes
If the federal government did what the NCAA is doing, it would likely be unconstitutional.

Right, but the NCAA is a voluntary, private association while the government can throw you in prison, making it necessary for rules enforced by the latter to be held to a higher standard.

I don't relish playing both sides of this issue: I'm simply trying to be intellectually honest about it. I don't think the courts should be able to tell the NCAA what kinds of rules they can enforce... but I can at the same time think the NCAA is freaking retarded (can I say that?) for implementing this rule, and schools shortsighted hostages for having to put up with it.

adamw
I believe North Dakota's evil-ness to many stems from having a Nazi-sympathizing benefactor donate $100,000,000 to build a gawdy hockey palace. It was supposed to be $10M - but he got mad over the Sioux issue, so pulled the plug on an across-the-board donation, and pumped it all into the arena instead.

On a related note, Dave Hakstol looks like he could play an SS officer in a war movie. With bleach blonde hair.

As a DC area native, you all can pry the name Redskins from my cold dead hands. Actually, you can pry it from Dan Snyder's cold dead hands and we'll all look the other way from how he got that way.

CUontheslopes
Tribal names are not slurs or inherently offensive.

I can't vouch for the veracity of this information, but one of the comments to the article nyc94 posted yesterday that revived the thread said:

The word "Sioux" is a derogatory term that was given to the Lakota Tribe by the rival Ojibwe Tribe. If memory serves me right, it translates to Two Serpents, or Two Devils. That is why some of the local Native tribes are against it, if the mascot was named the Fighting Lakota, it may not of been an issue.

To which another comment replied:

its actually "snake in the grass" (as told to me by my tour guide at the On-a-slant-villiage, in Ft. Aberham lincoln state park) which can seem degrading but the meaning is contested. Either snake in the grass as a bad thing, or a compliment, when the Ojibwe came to the prarie lands to fight the Sioux they ere use to fighing in the forests of minnesota and didn't know how the sioux camouflaged themselves and hid so well in the prarie... they were like a snake in the grass... Its just a story told to me by a tour guide, but how many times do people say things that are taken the wrong way?

In response to which the original poster linked this article from the Lakota Country Times, which said:

"Nadowessi" means little serpent; "Nadowessioux" means two little serpents; "Sioux" is a slang word meaning little devils or demons. Nadowessi refers to the Ojibwa Nation; Nadowessioux refers to the Ojibwa Nation and the Dakota Tribe; Sioux refers to the Dakota Tribe. Later the US government stuck the Lakota and Nakota Tribe in this word Sioux.

...

This word did not and does not come from the Lakota, Dakota or Nakota.

This leads me to believe that while UND and the people of North Dakota may very well have been well-intentioned in using the term "Fighting Sioux" as a tribute to the native Americans in the region, as they claim, there seems to be a real basis for the people being so "recognized" to object to the use.

CUontheslopes

ugarte

CUontheslopes
I'm sorry but there's nothing subjective about it. Fighting [INSERT PROPER NAME FOR ANY GROUP] is not racist in any way, shape or form. It's not like they're calling them the "Redskins" or, as someone else pointed out, using a caricature like Chief Wahoo. Fighting Sioux is no more offensive than Fighting New Yorkers. Last time I check "Sioux" was not an ethnic slur. The NCAA merely created an overboard rule which happened to catch the Sioux along with less respectful indian mascots.

And I'm happy to give those of you who see it differently the correct lesson - just because you think something IS subjectively offensive, doesn't mean it is or that the rest of society should bend to your opinion. If anytime someone was subjectively offended we apologized, we'd spend 23.5 hrs out of the day apologizing or being quiet for fear of offending someone.

You are a child. A spoiled child who can't play with his toy. In this case, the toy is "the identity of people who aren't him."

Tribal names were, and to a lesser extent are, offensive because they represent an infantilized and romanticized view of a "foreign" culture. That it is possible to heap on extra offense by also using a slur doesn't make the basic idea of using someone else's culture as a symbol of whatever you choose to assign to it inoffensive.

Notre Dame isn't a counterexample. The Notre Dame teams are called "the Fighting Irish" because the Jesuits running the school intentionally appropriated an attempted slur against them.

HAHA It's amazing Cornell let you out with a degree. You can't disagree rationally, so you instead take to calling names. Excellent analytical strategy. Ooo or perhaps I could say I'm subjectively offended by you calling me a child. That could be a slur! I demand you immediately cease using the world child permanently because you might offend someone. Absurd.

Tribal names are not slurs or inherently offensive. They are descriptive monikers, names for a noun no different than calling a four-leggeed furry critter a "cat." Maybe we could just stop calling people by any names at all for fear of offending someone. If you don't like the Fighting Sioux I can't see how you could abide the blatent racism of a school right in our very conference! UNION DUTCHMEN! How offensive!!!

"Political correctness" is nothing more than a minority of society attempting to exercise a veto on the speech of the majority, which has the effect of chilling speech altogether. If the federal government did what the NCAA is doing, it would likely be unconstitutional.

Sad to tell you but societies put curbs on the majority to protect the minority all the time. In part that's what makes the US so strong, respect for minority rights.

But this really should come down to individual respect, much like the discussion about words used by fans at games. If I say something that is offensive to someone, and they let me know that it is, and it seems reasonable to me; then I try and respect them and be more careful. If a large segment of Native Americans in ND are offended and don't want the U to use their name and image, then why in the world can't we just respect that. It's not like they are hurting us by asking us to stop, they just find it disrespectful. To me that's it, end of question, it's over. They don't like it, so why in the world would I do it?

So, you can obviously take my point to the absurd, but please don't. I certainly don't mean that I'd stop doing everything just because someone said so, although I still don't throw candy in Lynah.

They find it offensive, and the NCAA doesn't want to go along with it. It's that simple. I'm certainly happy living in a culture like ours, where we respect the minority.

css228
I can't really be all that upset about Fighting Sioux when a football team in our nations capital uses a blatant racial slur as their name. And let's not even start with Cleveland's baseball team.

Maybe the symbol had something to do with it. And hasn't even this symbol been cleaned up a bit over the years to a Disney look?

[clear]

I still like the idea of a college telling the NCAA to buzz off and do something useful like nail the next Jim Tressel sooner ... but we really did screw over the Indians. So what's on ND's jersey doesn't seem all that important. I suspect if the team nicknames were respectful of the region's heritage and the logos weren't caricatures, American Indians wouldn't have such an issue.

billhoward

css228
I can't really be all that upset about Fighting Sioux when a football team in our nations capital uses a blatant racial slur as their name. And let's not even start with Cleveland's baseball team.

Maybe the symbol had something to do with it. And hasn't even this symbol been cleaned up a bit over the years to a Disney look?

pMLB2-3537308dt.jpg

[clear]

Yes.

The Sioux have played their last game. That is unless a desperation lawsuit changes things. Their new logo:

They'd better trademark that. Never know when someone else will want something illegible. Maybe if the Escher Museum gets a hockey team.

First thing I thought when I saw that was Notre Dame. Probably not what you want from your school's logo to make people think of another institution.

munchkin
First thing I thought when I saw that was Notre Dame. Probably not what you want from your school's logo to make people think of another institution.

NoDak was already using some sort of ND logo, which I believe I once heard they had licensed from Notre Dame.

How many rupees do I need to pay Age to design a Fighting Flickertails logo?

You have to license a stylized N and D? Can we show we had the first Big Red nickname and make money? Next: The Ohio State University issues a cease and desist to colleges calling themselves, say, the The Baylor University?

Better: Harvard files look-and-feel lawsuits to colleges offering easy courses that inflate the overall GPA. That might be a winnable case. Where will the defendant find prior art?

I pleased this post has legs. But it'll never be a Harvard Sucks. For longevity and popularity, that's going to stand for longer than Babe Ruth's home run record.

This logo looks like Notre Dame and San Diego State's logos had a love child.

SDSU Logo:

CUontheslopes
This logo looks like Notre Dame and San Diego State's logos had a love child.

SDSU Logo:

pep2fucfegmv5ngort1u.gif

I wonder how much longer that will last. How does "Aztecs" make the cut while "Sioux" does not?

ugarte

CUontheslopes
This logo looks like Notre Dame and San Diego State's logos had a love child.

SDSU Logo:

pep2fucfegmv5ngort1u.gif

I wonder how much longer that will last. How does "Aztecs" make the cut while "Sioux" does not?

There are no Aztecs to sue them.

Trotsky

ugarte

CUontheslopes
This logo looks like Notre Dame and San Diego State's logos had a love child.

SDSU Logo:

pep2fucfegmv5ngort1u.gif

I wonder how much longer that will last. How does "Aztecs" make the cut while "Sioux" does not?

There are no Aztecs to sue them.

Oh yeah? Just wait until someone in Mexico City wants to build a casino.

Is that an arrow or a rocket propelled grenade at the tip of the logo?

So "The World Turns" again. As reported by USCHO they are reverting to the Fighting Sioux nickname.

Somehow appropriate that the head of the Board of Higher Education is named Grant SHAFT. 'Cause that's what he's doing.

Then again, "Who is the man who won't risk his neck for his fellow man?" Shaft. Grant Shaft.

Jim Hyla
So "The World Turns" again. As reported by USCHO they are reverting to the Fighting Sioux nickname.

I kind of wish they'd just make a decision and stick with it already.

Josh '99

Jim Hyla
So "The World Turns" again. As reported by USCHO they are reverting to the Fighting Sioux nickname.

I kind of wish they'd just make a decision and stick with it already.

From reading the article, I don't think NoDak had a choice. The submission of a petition with sufficient (valid) signatures appears to have compelled the decision. Probably some form of state referendum procedure.

ugarte

Josh '99

Jim Hyla
So "The World Turns" again. As reported by USCHO they are reverting to the Fighting Sioux nickname.

I kind of wish they'd just make a decision and stick with it already.

From reading the article, I don't think NoDak had a choice. The submission of a petition with sufficient (valid) signatures appears to have compelled the decision. Probably some form of state referendum procedure.

In the most only useful Hockey-L post in a decade, from "not that" John Edwards:

Enough signatures were collected to send November's law (the repeal) to a
referendum. Those petitions were filed on Tuesday, which apparently
suspends the law in question - an amusing fact since they don't even know
yet if there are actually enough valid signatures to put it on the
ballot. Assuming enough are legal, the issue goes to a statewide vote in
June. (Your tax dollars at work!) It's an open question as to how many
signatures came from NDSU fans who just want to be able to yell "Sioux
Suck" whenever they feel like it, whether they are actually playing UND or
not.

Meanwhile, the State Board of Higher Education is now considering trying to
have the April 2011 law overturned on constitutional grounds - something
that might have been worth doing back in - oh, I don't know, maybe - April
2011. If that happens, the June vote would be moot, since it would be a
vote to overturn a law that repeals a non-existent law. It would be the
Seinfeld of referenda.

RichH


In the most only useful Hockey-L post in a decade, from "not that" John Edwards:

Don't knock hockey-l. I need my UMass-Dartmouth box scores!

If I posted to hockey-l I wonder if it would set a record for longest duration between two posts on a listserv. It is probably about 16 years.

At first blush I can't imagine what constitutional grounds there would be to invalidate a law of this type. but then I imagine it's based on the North Dakota constitution and state constitutions have a bunch of seemingly bizarre provisions. maybe something about authority over these issues being granted to the Board?

Wasn't the NCAA threatening to impose sanctions on UND if they didn't change their nickname?

Ben
Wasn't the NCAA threatening to impose sanctions on UND if they didn't change their nickname?

Yes and that threat is presumably still be there. From a story linked earlier in the thread:

In 2005 the NCAA barred UND from hosting post season tournaments or using the nickname if its teams played in tournaments.

This could easily have come from the Onion.

New York Times on the current limbo:

[www.nytimes.com]

nyc94
New York Times on the current limbo:

[www.nytimes.com]

Which says living in limbo is hurting ND and so will retaining the nickname because some other schools won't play schools with Indian mascot names. So the athletic department would rather this be over and the Fighting Sioux nickname be gone.

The latest incident since the resumption of the nickname

css228
The latest incident since the resumption of the nickname

Chanting "smallpox blankets" at actual native americans is racist. Chanting "smallpox blankets" at a bunch of white guys from Minnesota and Western Canada who play for a team with a native american nickname is not.

Josh '99

css228
The latest incident since the resumption of the nickname

Chanting "smallpox blankets" at actual native americans is racist. Chanting "smallpox blankets" at a bunch of white guys from Minnesota and Western Canada who play for a team with a native american nickname is not.

Yep. And it's actually kind of funny in this context.

Josh '99

css228
The latest incident since the resumption of the nickname

Chanting "smallpox blankets" at actual native americans is racist. Chanting "smallpox blankets" at a bunch of white guys from Minnesota and Western Canada who play for a team with a native american nickname is not.

The Sioux tribe that supported the UND mascot name might disagree with you.

Josh '99
Chanting "smallpox blankets" at actual native americans is racist.

Drawing attention to race or a distinguishable property of a race as a means of mocking someone feels like racism to me, especially since the people chanting it are not thinking, "Let's make fun of those European descendants who murdered Native Americans with smallpox blankets!"

That said, I have a hard time caring if it's merely taunting: it's not like these people are being harassed by the police for driving while Native American. People need to lighten up and/or grow a thicker skin.