Polls 1/5/09 (Cornell #6/8)

Cornell up to 8 with 1 first place vote in the USCHO:

1	Notre Dame	(47)	16-3-2	994	1
2	Boston University( 2)	13-4-1	940	3
3	Minnesota		10-3-5	886	4
4	Northeastern		12-4-2	782	6
5	Denver		        13-6-2	720	5
6	Miami		        12-5-3	697	2
7	Princeton		13-3-0	690	8
8	Cornell	( 1)	        9-1-3	673	10
9	Boston College		9-5-2	660	7
10	Colorado College	11-6-5	534	9
10	Michigan		13-7-0	534	12
12	Vermont		        11-4-2	513	13
13	New Hampshire		9-6-3	298	15
14	Air Force		15-4-1	288	11
15	Dartmouth		9-5-0	198	20
16	Ohio State		13-6-1	197	NR
17	Wisconsin		10-9-3	153	14
18	Nebraska-Omaha		12-6-3	130	16
19	Alaska		        10-6-4	123	18
20	Minnesota-Duluth	9-5-6	118	NR
Others Receiving Votes: Quinnipiac 111, North Dakota 88, Minnesota State 86, Yale 33, Maine 30, Massachusetts 8, St. Cloud State 7, Michigan State 6, Niagara 3

#6 with 1 first place in USA Today:

1	Notre Dame	        504	(32)	1	16-3-2
2	Boston University	472	(1)	3	13-4-1
3	University of Minnesota	435		4	10-3-5
4	Northeastern University	360		6	12-4-2
5	Princeton University	332		8	13-3-0
6	Cornell University	316	(1)	9	9-1-3
7	University of Denver	309		5	13-6-2
8	Miami (Ohio) University	277		2	12-5-3
9	Boston College	        261		7	9-5-2
10	University of Vermont	218		13	11-4-2
11	University of Michigan	200		11	13-7-0
12	Colorado College	164		10	11-6-5
13	UNH	                74		14	9-6-3
14	U.S. Air Force Academy	50		12	15-4-1
15	Ohio State University	38		NR	13-6-1
Others receiving votes: Quinnipiac University 18, Dartmouth College 14, University of Maine 8, University of Nebraska Omaha 8, University of Wisconsin 8, Yale University 6, University of North Dakota 4, University of Alaska 2, Michigan State University 2. 

I saw some of BU's win over Denver, and they were extremely impressive.

Any thoughts as to who might be giving Cornell their first place vote?

Goon from North Dakota?

Who the hell is giving us first-place votes?

Kyle Rose
Who the hell is giving us first-place votes?

Someone who thinks record is the most important consideration.

CM cWo 44

Kyle Rose
Who the hell is giving us first-place votes?

Someone who thinks record is the most important consideration.

PWR, probably.

Trotsky

CM cWo 44

Kyle Rose
Who the hell is giving us first-place votes?

Someone who thinks record is the most important consideration.

PWR, probably.

If you believe strongly in the ranking systems then it makes complete sense to vote for Cornell. Or Princeton, for that matter - they've been right up at the top along with us. The voters appear to be trusting more in their subjective assesments of who they think is best and are opting for ND (6th in both PWR and KRACH). Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. Polls are supposed to be subjective. [Obligatory disclaimer:] Fortunately we get to decide things on the ice.

Still having a problem with being placed--subjectively--behind Princeton in the polls, [Sorry, Beeej.] especially given the Tigers' fine performance yesterday. Do I care? No. [That's to avoid the usual ration of crap from the peanut gallery.] But it just puzzles me.

Al DeFlorio
Still having a problem with being placed--subjectively--behind Princeton in the polls, [Sorry, Beeej.] especially given the Tigers' fine performance yesterday. Do I care? No. [That's to avoid the usual ration of crap from the peanut gallery.] But it just puzzles me.

No problem, Awl.

Mathematically, it's possible that a majority of poll voters placed us ahead of Princeton, but a small minority of them placed us far enough behind Princeton to make up for it (despite even a first-place vote). They're stupid, stupid people, Al, and clearly they should be shot.

(In addition to everything I said last time, polls almost always reflect trends, not just immediate records and PWR. Princeton started off higher, and Cornell started off lower, so any convergence resulting from Cornell performing better than Princeton was going to be gradual as long as Princeton didn't completely tank. If the voters had yanked Cornell up several spots and Princeton down several a month ago, then Cornell had lost even a single game on a weekend when Princeton swept, they'd look pretty goofy. Movement is slow. If Cornell "deserves" to be ahead of Princeton in the polls, eventually they'll get there.)

(Plus, the polls still don't actually matter.)

Beeeej
(In addition to everything I said last time, polls almost always reflect trends, not just immediate records and PWR. Princeton started off higher, and Cornell started off lower, so any convergence resulting from Cornell performing better than Princeton was going to be gradual as long as Princeton didn't completely tank.

True, so true and exactly why I think there should not be any polls till at least the season is 1/3 completed, in every sport. Not that I ever expect it will happen, but if we realize that you can't come out with an accurate computer ranking till about 1/2 way through, why do we think humans are that much smarter? or is it?

Jim Hyla

Beeeej
(In addition to everything I said last time, polls almost always reflect trends, not just immediate records and PWR. Princeton started off higher, and Cornell started off lower, so any convergence resulting from Cornell performing better than Princeton was going to be gradual as long as Princeton didn't completely tank.

True, so true and exactly why I think there should not be any polls till at least the season is 1/3 completed, in every sport. Not that I ever expect it will happen, but if we realize that you can't come out with an accurate computer ranking till about 1/2 way through, why do we think humans are that much smarter? or is it?

We bother because while you're right to an extent, people will always disagree about when it's worth bothering and how accurate poll voters are, and so if you think it should start at the beginning of January, but I think mid-December, you'll think I'm as crazy as I think the guy is who wants to start in late November. Since you'll never get a consensus on how long after the beginning to start, and since we do at least have some knowledge about returning players and incoming rookies, there's no good reason not to start at the beginning.

Plus, who said it was about humans being "smarter"? I don't think the poll is ever intended to predict the season's outcome, I think it's intended to reflect exactly what it reflects - the opinions of the voters in any given week.

My problem is with the final poll of the season, which if I recall correctly comes after the first two rounds of the NCAAs. That's definitely a "why bother?" situation.

We did beat princeton but it was the first game of the season and it was a close game. We got out shot by like 20 or so,they are just waiting for the game at lynah that will decide alot.

dragonfan
We did beat princeton but it was the first game of the season and it was a close game. We got out shot by like 20 or so,they are just waiting for the game at lynah that will decide alot.

I can assure you with nearly 100% certainty that absolutely none of the poll voters thought to themselves, "Well, Princeton and Cornell haven't played at Lynah yet, and the shutout on the road might have been a fluke because the Big Red got badly outshot, so I'm going to leave Princeton ahead of Cornell for now" before sending in their votes. Except perhaps Guy Gadowsky, if he's got a vote.

Really, I would be surprised if any of the voters take more than three minutes filling out their ballots each week, after maybe four minutes scanning the previous week's results. We spend way more time debating it here than I think any voter does, probably by degrees of magnitude.

Plus, remember, a lot of the voters are in the west, never see us play personally, and haven't the slightest idea of the relative strengths of two sissy-Ivy schools who wouldn't know a real college hockey program if it came up to them and offered them a full scholarship in Canadian dollars, but they do remember Princeton won the ECACs last year and haven't lost many games, so by golly, I'll give 'em a few points.

Polls were invented by newspapers to generate interest, sell copies, and make money. They've never been anything more than that.

Trotsky
Polls were invented by newspapers to generate interest, sell copies, and make money. They've never been anything more than that.

Based upon how newspapers are going belly up financially, it appears the polls aren't doing their job!

dbilmes

Trotsky
Polls were invented by newspapers to generate interest, sell copies, and make money. They've never been anything more than that.

Based upon how newspapers are going belly up financially, it appears the polls aren't doing their job!

You don't know that. They could be keeping the newspapers from going belly up financially faster.

dbilmes

Trotsky
Polls were invented by newspapers to generate interest, sell copies, and make money. They've never been anything more than that.

Based upon how newspapers are going belly up financially, it appears the polls aren't doing their job!

Because they've been usurped by web sites like USCHO and INCH.

Beeeej

Jim Hyla

Beeeej
(In addition to everything I said last time, polls almost always reflect trends, not just immediate records and PWR. Princeton started off higher, and Cornell started off lower, so any convergence resulting from Cornell performing better than Princeton was going to be gradual as long as Princeton didn't completely tank.

True, so true and exactly why I think there should not be any polls till at least the season is 1/3 completed, in every sport. Not that I ever expect it will happen, but if we realize that you can't come out with an accurate computer ranking till about 1/2 way through, why do we think humans are that much smarter? or is it?

We bother because while you're right to an extent, people will always disagree about when it's worth bothering and how accurate poll voters are, and so if you think it should start at the beginning of January, but I think mid-December, you'll think I'm as crazy as I think the guy is who wants to start in late November. Since you'll never get a consensus on how long after the beginning to start, and since we do at least have some knowledge about returning players and incoming rookies, there's no good reason not to start at the beginning.

Plus, who said it was about humans being "smarter"? I don't think the poll is ever intended to predict the season's outcome, I think it's intended to reflect exactly what it reflects - the opinions of the voters in any given week.

My problem is with the final poll of the season, which if I recall correctly comes after the first two rounds of the NCAAs. That's definitely a "why bother?" situation.

But the first bold of your quote is the exact good reason why I think polls shouldn't start at the beginning of the season. While in hockey they may not matter, they certainly do in football.

Jim Hyla
But the first bold of your quote is the exact good reason why I think polls shouldn't start at the beginning of the season. While in hockey they may not matter, they certainly do in football.

Your objection assumes that a lack of a formal poll implies a lack of opinions. You wouldn't have to ban polling, you'd have to ban all informal comparisons of teams to each other or any newspaper from making a top 20 list. If the polls weren't taken and all of the newspapers had a single columnist that ranked the teams, someone would aggregate the polls and that would become the defacto ranking until the official polls were released. The BCS tries to hide the rankings until midseason but it isn't hard to find an unofficial BCS ranking after the first week of competition.

Polls are collections of opinions. They are as good as the data that goes in, which is why the first week's polls usually look silly at the end of the year. But so what? The early polls are strictly for bullshitting at the bar - if you didn't have the polls, what would you argue with? And how would the networks advertise an early-season game between two 'highly ranked' teams if, well, nobody was ranked?

You are arguing against the tides, Jim.

ugarte

Jim Hyla
But the first bold of your quote is the exact good reason why I think polls shouldn't start at the beginning of the season. While in hockey they may not matter, they certainly do in football.

Your objection assumes that a lack of a formal poll implies a lack of opinions.

I don't know where you get from my thought that not doing polls till after the season has been in play implies a lack of opinions. Huh? I'm trying to argue that having meaningless polls even before the season starts makes it easier for the well known teams to stay at the top, and therefore harder for upcoming teams to crack through.

You wouldn't have to ban polling, you'd have to ban all informal comparisons of teams to each other or any newspaper from making a top 20 list. If the polls weren't taken and all of the newspapers had a single columnist that ranked the teams, someone would aggregate the polls and that would become the defacto ranking until the official polls were released.

I don't care what informal polls someone wants to start whenever, just that "official polls" would be more acurate of the current situation if they waited until after the season was in force.

The BCS tries to hide the rankings until midseason but it isn't hard to find an unofficial BCS ranking after the first week of competition.

But the reason, I believe, that the BCS is not released sooner is that the computer rankings would be meaningless. Afterall it's hard for computers to come up with rankings if there is no data, meaning no games played. That's precisely why I think the human polls are also meaningless early on, but worse yet harmful to up and coming teams.

Polls are collections of opinions. They are as good as the data that goes in, which is why the first week's polls usually look silly at the end of the year. But so what?

I think this is a repeat of before and I already answered it.

The early polls are strictly for bullshitting at the bar - if you didn't have the polls, what would you argue with?

You name it I can argue with it.

And how would the networks advertise an early-season game between two 'highly ranked' teams if, well, nobody was ranked?

Why should I care?

You are arguing against the tides, Jim.

So what, that's never stopped me before. After all, isn't that your point, we have polls so we can argue?

I was just trying to point out that the game at lynah will mean alot in the league and the national outlook considering we are so close in the polls #5/6-7/8 I am certain they realize that.

Jim Hyla

The early polls are strictly for bullshitting at the bar - if you didn't have the polls, what would you argue with?

You name it I can argue with it.

No you can't.

ftyuv

Jim Hyla

The early polls are strictly for bullshitting at the bar - if you didn't have the polls, what would you argue with?

You name it I can argue with it.

No you can't.

Yes I can!

You're not arguing, you're mereley contradicting.

Roy 82
You're not arguing, you're mereley contradicting.

No you're not.

You snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings! Your kind makes me puke! You vacuous, toffee-nosed, malodorous pervert!

Jeff Hopkins '82
You snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings! Your kind makes me puke! You vacuous, toffee-nosed, malodorous pervert!

Look, I came here to have an argument...

Josh '99

Jeff Hopkins '82
You snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings! Your kind makes me puke! You vacuous, toffee-nosed, malodorous pervert!

Look, I came here to have an argument...

Oh. Sorry, this is Abuse.

Gentle Ben gets some props for Cornell's success so far: [www.uscho.com]

[Aside: Got a fundraising call from Scrivens last night. Nice kid. Really wanted UMass's second goal back.]

In addition to all this, #4 at INCH and #1 in PWR

Chris '03
Cornell up to 8 with 1 first place vote in the USCHO:

1	Notre Dame	(47)	16-3-2	994	1
2	Boston University( 2)	13-4-1	940	3
3	Minnesota		10-3-5	886	4
4	Northeastern		12-4-2	782	6
5	Denver		        13-6-2	720	5
6	Miami		        12-5-3	697	2
7	Princeton		13-3-0	690	8
8	Cornell	( 1)	        9-1-3	673	10
9	Boston College		9-5-2	660	7
10	Colorado College	11-6-5	534	9
10	Michigan		13-7-0	534	12
12	Vermont		        11-4-2	513	13
13	New Hampshire		9-6-3	298	15
14	Air Force		15-4-1	288	11
15	Dartmouth		9-5-0	198	20
16	Ohio State		13-6-1	197	NR
17	Wisconsin		10-9-3	153	14
18	Nebraska-Omaha		12-6-3	130	16
19	Alaska		        10-6-4	123	18
20	Minnesota-Duluth	9-5-6	118	NR
Others Receiving Votes: Quinnipiac 111, North Dakota 88, Minnesota State 86, Yale 33, Maine 30, Massachusetts 8, St. Cloud State 7, Michigan State 6, Niagara 3

#6 with 1 first place in USA Today:

1	Notre Dame	        504	(32)	1	16-3-2
2	Boston University	472	(1)	3	13-4-1
3	University of Minnesota	435		4	10-3-5
4	Northeastern University	360		6	12-4-2
5	Princeton University	332		8	13-3-0
6	Cornell University	316	(1)	9	9-1-3
7	University of Denver	309		5	13-6-2
8	Miami (Ohio) University	277		2	12-5-3
9	Boston College	        261		7	9-5-2
10	University of Vermont	218		13	11-4-2
11	University of Michigan	200		11	13-7-0
12	Colorado College	164		10	11-6-5
13	UNH	                74		14	9-6-3
14	U.S. Air Force Academy	50		12	15-4-1
15	Ohio State University	38		NR	13-6-1
Others receiving votes: Quinnipiac University 18, Dartmouth College 14, University of Maine 8, University of Nebraska Omaha 8, University of Wisconsin 8, Yale University 6, University of North Dakota 4, University of Alaska 2, Michigan State University 2. 

Al DeFlorio
[Aside: Got a fundraising call from Scrivens last night. Nice kid. Really wanted UMass's second goal back.]

Me too! (the fundraising call part, not the wanting the second goal back part)

DeltaOne81

Al DeFlorio
[Aside: Got a fundraising call from Scrivens last night. Nice kid. Really wanted UMass's second goal back.]

Me too! (the fundraising call part, not the wanting the second goal back part)

He admitted to you that he let it slip by on purpose?

ugarte

DeltaOne81

Al DeFlorio
[Aside: Got a fundraising call from Scrivens last night. Nice kid. Really wanted UMass's second goal back.]

Me too! (the fundraising call part, not the wanting the second goal back part)

He admitted to you that he let it slip by on purpose?

Well sure, otherwise he'd get bored out there. Gotta keep it interesting!