"And Then There Was One"

It's time to rally around the conference's last, best hope, the Skating Saints.

4:30 pm, Saturday

Gametracker is available from the USCHO schedule site.

SLU and BC audio links appreciated.

The game is available in CNY on TW26.

As well as Altitude and FSN NY. Also on CN8 and several local cable stations:

[uschtv.com]
[www.ncaasports.com]

Much easier to rally around the NC team I don't hate. Even though I should.

Stupid LaPerriere.

ugarte
Stupid LaPerriere.

Don't get me started. It was triple screened -- we had no chance.

Trotsky

ugarte
Stupid LaPerriere.

Don't get me started. It was triple screened -- we had no chance.

And that changes what, exactly?

ugarte

Trotsky

ugarte
Stupid LaPerriere.

Don't get me started. It was triple screened -- we had no chance.

And that changes what, exactly?

It changes nothing.

I went to that game hungover, and TO THIS DAY I think it's why we lost. I just never, ever, ever want to think about it again.

That team had a shot. 'T's'all ahm sayin'.

Trotsky

ugarte

Trotsky

ugarte
Stupid LaPerriere.

Don't get me started. It was triple screened -- we had no chance.

And that changes what, exactly?

It changes nothing.

I went to that game hungover, and TO THIS DAY I think it's why we lost. I just never, ever, ever want to think about it again.

Interesting, I thought we lost to RPI in 1990 because I bought tickets to the final before heading to Boston. (Stupid hubris.) So I didn't buy tickets for the final in '91. My lack of faith is what cost us that year.

Mybe it was your "hate" that cost you.

BC 1 SLU 0, early first.

BC 2 SLU 1 early 2nd

4-1 BC final. Yeah Boston, way to represent!

ftyuv
4-1 BC final. Yeah Boston, way to represent!

Technically, BC isn't in Boston

DeltaOne81

ftyuv
4-1 BC final. Yeah Boston, way to represent!

Technically, BC isn't in Boston

Yeah yeah yeah. Technically you could say it's not a college, either.

ftyuv
4-1 BC final. Yeah Boston, way to represent!

Really? You'll root for any Boston team, even if they have one of the most idiotic and annoying fan bases in the country?

And then there was Toot.

RichH

ftyuv
4-1 BC final. Yeah Boston, way to represent!

Really? You'll root for any Boston team, even if they have one of the most idiotic and annoying fan bases in the country?

You're going to have to be more specific - that could describe any of the Boston teams.

Josh '99

RichH

ftyuv
4-1 BC final. Yeah Boston, way to represent!

Really? You'll root for any Boston team, even if they have one of the most idiotic and annoying fan bases in the country?

You're going to have to be more specific - that could describe any of the Boston teams.

I don't know...I've never met a Boston Cannons fan I didn't like.

jtwcornell91
And then there was Toot.

I guess we're now down to rooting for the east? At what point does this become every man for himself, because a Notre Dame championship gets me first prize in my pool.

oceanst41
I guess we're now down to rooting for the east? At what point does this become every man for himself, because a Notre Dame championship gets me first prize in my pool.

I dunno, I think I'm leaning for the CCHA. They haven't won since 1998, which was also the last time they even had a team in the finals. Notre Dame would be nice. Miami upsetting BC would be cool.

oceanst41

jtwcornell91
And then there was Toot.

I guess we're now down to rooting for the east? At what point does this become every man for himself, because a Notre Dame championship gets me first prize in my pool.

At this point it comes down to rooting for good matchups in St. Louis, 'cause I had a New Hampshire - Clarkson title game in my pool.

Pretty impressive showing by the ECAC. Their teams have scored 1 goal in the last 11 periods they have played in the NCAA Tournament. I thought this conference was making progress but it just looks like Atlantic Hockey catching up rather than the ECAC catching up with anyone.

Maybe we should have switched to Hockey East before Vermont made their move

Now we're stuck in EZAC forever.

Beeeej

oceanst41

jtwcornell91
And then there was Toot.

I guess we're now down to rooting for the east? At what point does this become every man for himself, because a Notre Dame championship gets me first prize in my pool.

At this point it comes down to rooting for good matchups in St. Louis, 'cause I had a New Hampshire - Clarkson title game in my pool.

Well you've got MSU vs Maine so far, and I'm out one tournament champion now. UCLA ends my b-ball hopes and MSU takes care of hockey.

RichH

ftyuv
4-1 BC final. Yeah Boston, way to represent!

Really? You'll root for any Boston team, even if they have one of the most idiotic and annoying fan bases in the country?

I'll admit BC's fans leave something to be desired. But they're not Harvard, their tickets are cheaper than BU's, and they're better than Northeastern, so they're my team for now.

Plus, if there's one thing better than seeing BC and BU students yelling "safety school" at one another, it's standing between them in a Cornell jersey and alternately yelling "safety school" at both of them.

oceanst41

jtwcornell91
And then there was Toot.

I guess we're now down to rooting for the east? At what point does this become every man for himself, because a Notre Dame championship gets me first prize in my pool.

Well, Toot used to coach Princeton, so there was the ECAC connection.

So, we have a Frozen Four of:

The University of Maine Cheaters
Michigan State, coached by Rick "Make the CHA play a play-in game" Comley
The North Dakota Fighting Injun Redskin Savage Wampum Powwow Squaw "How" Sioux (As mandated by Führer Emeritus Ralph's last will and testiment) or the Minnesota Golden Goofers
The Boys Club or the Miami of Ohios

Um, go Redhawks?

jtwcornell91

oceanst41

jtwcornell91
And then there was Toot.

I guess we're now down to rooting for the east? At what point does this become every man for himself, because a Notre Dame championship gets me first prize in my pool.

Well, Toot used to coach Princeton, so there was the ECAC connection.

So, we have a Frozen Four of:

The University of Maine Cheaters
Michigan State, coached by Rick "Make the CHA play a play-in game" Comley
The North Dakota Fighting Injun Redskin Savage Wampum Powwow Squaw "How" Sioux (As mandated by Führer Emeritus Ralph's last will and testiment) or the Minnesota Golden Goofers
The Boys Club or the Miami of Ohios

Um, go Redhawks?

Oops, I knew about Toot and Princeton but I was just alluding to the fact that UMass has now lost as well. I think I'll just root for the underdogs - so would that mean that this year the underdogs are really the favorites?

oceanst41

jtwcornell91

oceanst41

jtwcornell91
And then there was Toot.

I guess we're now down to rooting for the east? At what point does this become every man for himself, because a Notre Dame championship gets me first prize in my pool.

Well, Toot used to coach Princeton, so there was the ECAC connection.

So, we have a Frozen Four of:

The University of Maine Cheaters
Michigan State, coached by Rick "Make the CHA play a play-in game" Comley
The North Dakota Fighting Injun Redskin Savage Wampum Powwow Squaw "How" Sioux (As mandated by Führer Emeritus Ralph's last will and testiment) or the Minnesota Golden Goofers
The Boys Club or the Miami of Ohios

Um, go Redhawks?

Oops, I knew about Toot and Princeton but I was just alluding to the fact that UMass has now lost as well. I think I'll just root for the underdogs - so would that mean that this year the underdogs are really the favorites?

I threw a dice, and the number corresponding to BC came up.

So go Eagles!?

In reply to [elf.elynah.com]

min

oceanst41

jtwcornell91

oceanst41

jtwcornell91
And then there was Toot.

I guess we're now down to rooting for the east? At what point does this become every man for himself, because a Notre Dame championship gets me first prize in my pool.

Well, Toot used to coach Princeton, so there was the ECAC connection.

So, we have a Frozen Four of:

The University of Maine Cheaters
Michigan State, coached by Rick "Make the CHA play a play-in game" Comley
The North Dakota Fighting Injun Redskin Savage Wampum Powwow Squaw "How" Sioux (As mandated by Führer Emeritus Ralph's last will and testiment) or the Minnesota Golden Goofers
The Boys Club or the Miami of Ohios

Um, go Redhawks?

Oops, I knew about Toot and Princeton but I was just alluding to the fact that UMass has now lost as well. I think I'll just root for the underdogs - so would that mean that this year the underdogs are really the favorites?

I threw a dice, and the number corresponding to BC came up.

So go Eagles!?

Yeah Boston*, way to represent!

* and its close neighbors, you geography nazis

ftyuv
In reply to [elf.elynah.com]

min

oceanst41

jtwcornell91

oceanst41

jtwcornell91
And then there was Toot.

I guess we're now down to rooting for the east? At what point does this become every man for himself, because a Notre Dame championship gets me first prize in my pool.

Well, Toot used to coach Princeton, so there was the ECAC connection.

So, we have a Frozen Four of:

The University of Maine Cheaters
Michigan State, coached by Rick "Make the CHA play a play-in game" Comley
The North Dakota Fighting Injun Redskin Savage Wampum Powwow Squaw "How" Sioux (As mandated by Führer Emeritus Ralph's last will and testiment) or the Minnesota Golden Goofers
The Boys Club or the Miami of Ohios

Um, go Redhawks?

Oops, I knew about Toot and Princeton but I was just alluding to the fact that UMass has now lost as well. I think I'll just root for the underdogs - so would that mean that this year the underdogs are really the favorites?

I threw a dice, and the number corresponding to BC came up.

So go Eagles!?

Yeah Boston*, way to represent!

* and its close neighbors, you geography nazis

He just said BC, that could easily be Brookline College.

calgARI '07
Pretty impressive showing by the ECAC. Their teams have scored 1 goal in the last 11 periods they have played in the NCAA Tournament. I thought this conference was making progress but it just looks like Atlantic Hockey catching up rather than the ECAC catching up with anyone.

So Clarkson choked in the NCAAs. That's news?

oceanst41

ftyuv
In reply to [elf.elynah.com]

min

oceanst41

jtwcornell91

oceanst41

jtwcornell91
And then there was Toot.

I guess we're now down to rooting for the east? At what point does this become every man for himself, because a Notre Dame championship gets me first prize in my pool.

Well, Toot used to coach Princeton, so there was the ECAC connection.

So, we have a Frozen Four of:

The University of Maine Cheaters
Michigan State, coached by Rick "Make the CHA play a play-in game" Comley
The North Dakota Fighting Injun Redskin Savage Wampum Powwow Squaw "How" Sioux (As mandated by Führer Emeritus Ralph's last will and testiment) or the Minnesota Golden Goofers
The Boys Club or the Miami of Ohios

Um, go Redhawks?

Oops, I knew about Toot and Princeton but I was just alluding to the fact that UMass has now lost as well. I think I'll just root for the underdogs - so would that mean that this year the underdogs are really the favorites?

I threw a dice, and the number corresponding to BC came up.

So go Eagles!?

Yeah Boston*, way to represent!

* and its close neighbors, you geography nazis

He just said BC, that could easily be Brookline College.

I'll see your hair-splitting and raise it a nitpick. He said both BC and Eagles, so you'd have to cross-reference "BC" colleges with colleges whose mascot is the eagle. Plus even if he meant Brookline College, that'd still be Boston*. So suck oooon that!


* and its close neighbors, you geography nazis

ftyuv

oceanst41

ftyuv
In reply to [elf.elynah.com]

min

oceanst41

jtwcornell91

oceanst41

jtwcornell91
And then there was Toot.

I guess we're now down to rooting for the east? At what point does this become every man for himself, because a Notre Dame championship gets me first prize in my pool.

Well, Toot used to coach Princeton, so there was the ECAC connection.

So, we have a Frozen Four of:

The University of Maine Cheaters
Michigan State, coached by Rick "Make the CHA play a play-in game" Comley
The North Dakota Fighting Injun Redskin Savage Wampum Powwow Squaw "How" Sioux (As mandated by Führer Emeritus Ralph's last will and testiment) or the Minnesota Golden Goofers
The Boys Club or the Miami of Ohios

Um, go Redhawks?

Oops, I knew about Toot and Princeton but I was just alluding to the fact that UMass has now lost as well. I think I'll just root for the underdogs - so would that mean that this year the underdogs are really the favorites?

I threw a dice, and the number corresponding to BC came up.

So go Eagles!?

Yeah Boston*, way to represent!

* and its close neighbors, you geography nazis

He just said BC, that could easily be Brookline College.

I'll see your hair-splitting and raise it a nitpick. He said both BC and Eagles, so you'd have to cross-reference "BC" colleges with colleges whose mascot is the eagle. Plus even if he meant Brookline College, that'd still be Boston*. So suck oooon that!


* and its close neighbors, you geography nazis

They are still from the East so I'll root for them, or Miami, as long as the winner of their game beats the winner of the West Regional.

oceanst41
They are still from the East so I'll root for them, or Miami, as long as the winner of their games beats the winner of the West Regional.

Absolutely.

Josh '99

calgARI '07
Pretty impressive showing by the ECAC. Their teams have scored 1 goal in the last 11 periods they have played in the NCAA Tournament. I thought this conference was making progress but it just looks like Atlantic Hockey catching up rather than the ECAC catching up with anyone.

So Clarkson choked in the NCAAs. That's news?

They played hard and pretty well against an underrated opponent who has been hot lately.

They lost 1-0 on OT. How is that choking? Not a chance.

Did cornell "choke" when they lost in OT in their last NCAA appearance? I think not.

Rich S
They played hard and pretty well against an underrated opponent who has been hot lately.

They lost 1-0 on OT. How is that choking? Not a chance.

Did cornell "choke" when they lost in OT in their last NCAA appearance? I think not.

Clarkson lost as a #1 seed coming off an ECAC tournament win.
Cornell lost as a #2 seed to the best team in the country.

Oh, and Nickerson's a goon.

Rich S
They played hard and pretty well against an underrated opponent who has been hot lately.

They lost 1-0 on OT. How is that choking? Not a chance.

I'm sorry. A number #1 seed losing to a #4 is at least a bit of a choke. Yes, these things happen, but, its also not nearly playing to your potential.

I also have to disagree that Clarkson played pretty well. I was watching the game, I don't think either team played pretty well.

Did cornell "choke" when they lost in OT in their last NCAA appearance? I think not.

Cornell lost to one of the best teams in the nation and the eventual national champion. Clarkson lost to UMass.

Lets put it this way... according to KRACH, Clarkson had a ~60% chance to win that game and didn't score a goal.

Cornell, on the other hand, had only a 33% chance to win against Wisconsin and brought the game to triple overtime anyway. You have to consider the odds in these kinds of things.

I dunno if Clarkson choked, but they sure as heck underperformed. And choke just means significant underperformance.

DeltaOne81

Rich S
They played hard and pretty well against an underrated opponent who has been hot lately.

They lost 1-0 on OT. How is that choking? Not a chance.

I'm sorry. A number #1 seed losing to a #4 is at least a bit of a choke. Yes, these things happen, but, its also not nearly playing to your potential.

I also have to disagree that Clarkson played pretty well. I was watching the game, I don't think either team played pretty well.

Did cornell "choke" when they lost in OT in their last NCAA appearance? I think not.

Cornell lost to one of the best teams in the nation and the eventual national champion. Clarkson lost to UMass.

Lets put it this way... according to KRACH, Clarkson had a ~60% chance to win that game and didn't score a goal.

Cornell, on the other hand, had only a 33% chance to win against Wisconsin and brought the game to triple overtime anyway. You have to consider the odds in these kinds of things.

I dunno if Clarkson choked, but they sure as heck underperformed. And choke just means significant underperformance.

N.B. also, the last five times we've been to the NCAA tournament, we've won at least our first round game. I don't think losing in the quarters as the #2 seed is quite the same as losing as the #1 seed in the first round.

EDIT: And I'm right 'cause I'm a lawyer!!

I'm glad we've snapped out of this silly intra-conference loyalty slump we were in. Clarkson sucks! Harvard sucks! SLUts suck! Let's Go Red!

Beeeej
And I'm right 'cause I'm a lawyer!!

Yes, yes, we know. You arrogant bastard.

Beeeej
EDIT: And I'm right 'cause I'm a lawyer!!

ebilmes

Rich S
They played hard and pretty well against an underrated opponent who has been hot lately.

They lost 1-0 on OT. How is that choking? Not a chance.

Did cornell "choke" when they lost in OT in their last NCAA appearance? I think not.

Clarkson lost as a #1 seed coming off an ECAC tournament win.
Cornell lost as a #2 seed to the best team in the country.

Oh, and Nickerson's a goon.

If we go by the PWR, it is really a #3 seed losing to a #14 seed. Spin all you want, but that looks like a choke.

RichH

Beeeej
EDIT: And I'm right 'cause I'm a lawyer!!

TrMo-Star%20Jones.jpg

So, wait, you mean that's almost twice as many planes?

Will

Beeeej
And I'm right 'cause I'm a lawyer!!

Yes, yes, we know. You arrogant bastard.

get it right. He's a "pompous ass."

ftyuv
I'm glad we've snapped out of this silly intra-conference loyalty slump we were in. Clarkson sucks! Harvard sucks! SLUts suck! Let's Go Red!

Now that's the spirit!

Rich S

Will

Beeeej
And I'm right 'cause I'm a lawyer!!

Yes, yes, we know. You arrogant bastard.

get it right. He's a "pompous ass."

That's "pompous aaaass," if you please.

Rich S
They played hard and pretty well against an underrated opponent who has been hot lately.

They lost 1-0 on OT. How is that choking? Not a chance.

There are no "chokes" in NCAA games. Teams are there either because they ripped it up all season or they are red hot and just won their tournament. No NCAA loss is shameful -- not even Minny to Holy Cross.

I hate agreeing with Rich S., ever, but he's absolutely correct. However, it should be added that Nickerson eats babies, flosses with kittens, and molests several species of small, woodland creatures. To be fair, the latter behavior we will ascribe to accepted North Country norms.

Trotsky
There are no "chokes" in NCAA games. Teams are there either because they ripped it up all season or they are red hot and just won their tournament.

What? Just because they made the tourney, they are now elevated to some untouchable status where their individual game results are suddenly absolved of scrutiny? If a #1 overall seed loses to a #16 10-0, that's not a choke?

[q]Choke: To fail to perform effectively because of nervous agitation or tension.[/q]

If there's any time in which a team is susceptible to choking, it's during NCAA games. All teams in the tourney are not created equal. Given the autobids and number of teams playing with respect to the total number of D-1 teams, some of those #4 seeds really are mid-pack teams and in most cases a #1 losing to them is most certainly choking.

CowbellGuy
What? Just because they made the tourney, they are now elevated to some untouchable status where their individual game results are suddenly absolved of scrutiny? If a #1 overall seed loses to a #16 10-0, that's not a choke?.

If a #1 loses to a #16 10-0, that's probably more like "a deliberate throw."

There is considerably less distance between teams, now. How many more huge upsets / ot near upsets will it take to realize that the teams that make the tourny are all capable of performing well enough to hold themselves in a game against anybody? A "choke," to me, means you had complete control of the game and all you needed to do was show up and it was yours. (Like, say, blowing a 4-goal lead in the third period in an NCAA SF... ) It used to be the case that a 1-seed simply had to win their game or they were choking. Not any more.

You may now hyperbolize to your heart's content.

Trotsky
There are no "chokes" in NCAA games. No NCAA loss is shameful -- not even Minny to Holy Cross.

So, if ND, a number one seed and undisputed CCHA champ at 32-6-3, had lost to Alabama-Huntsville, the bottom team in the CHA, at 13-20-3, instead of winning in 2OT, that wouldn't have been a choke? (What a terrible sentence I just wrote) I might argue that they lost the following night because they did choke to UAH. But then again I might have been wrong.

An upset isn't a choke. Save the phrase "choke" for a more specific action, say, falling over instead of shooting into an empty net.

Didn't that happen to someone in the NHL this year?

Dafatone
An upset isn't a choke. Save the phrase "choke" for a more specific action, say, falling over instead of shooting into an empty net.

Didn't that happen to someone in the NHL this year?

There was some guy who missed an ENG because he took it in close instead of shooting it in from the blueline, and the puck hit a bump or something and jumped over his stick. When he tried to recover it, he ended up falling over and crashing into the boards, and then someone from the other team took it up, skated it all the way in and scored to tie up the game with seconds remaining. I forget who it was, but it's on youtube.

edit:

Dafatone
Didn't that happen to someone in the NHL this year?

[nhldigest.com]

As a reward, the Bruins traded for him.

Dafatone
Save the phrase "choke" for a more specific action

Or, say, advancing past the first round twice in nine NCAA appearances in the 90s?

Trotsky

Dafatone
Didn't that happen to someone in the NHL this year?

[nhldigest.com]

As a reward, the Bruins traded for him.

That seems like appropriate punishment ot me.


Okay, so Greg makes a good point. Upsets in the NCAA aren't 'choking', they happen, especially this year.

Rich, I think the biggest problem with your post was trying to compare a favorite losing in OT to an underdog losing in 3 OTs. The comparison was just so over-the-top that what coulda been a reasonable point got lost in the mix.

However, I do believe Greg is right. And while I don't believe that Clarkson played up to their ability - and that's a shame - I guess it wasn't a choke either.

An upset isn't a choke.

Okay, but what if its repeatedly? Year after year getting upset or unable to win. Eventually, you're choking right? Would it be better if we called it Harvarding?

DeltaOne81
Okay, but what if its repeatedly? Year after year getting upset or unable to win. Eventually, you're choking right? Would it be better if we called it Harvarding?

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

37 years and counting.

Trotsky

DeltaOne81
Okay, but what if its repeatedly? Year after year getting upset or unable to win. Eventually, you're choking right? Would it be better if we called it Harvarding?

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

37 years and counting.

For verily Harvard doth suck.

Trotsky

DeltaOne81
Okay, but what if its repeatedly? Year after year getting upset or unable to win. Eventually, you're choking right? Would it be better if we called it Harvarding?

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

37 years and counting.

And how often were we the best team over that span? Once, maybe? I'll call the loss to UNH in 2003 a choke if you'd like. We only choked the first period but that was enough. (That said, that Minnesota team was pretty impressive in the finals and I don't think we were actually the best team in the country.)

Trotsky

DeltaOne81
Okay, but what if its repeatedly? Year after year getting upset or unable to win. Eventually, you're choking right? Would it be better if we called it Harvarding?

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

37 years and counting.

I'm not talking national titles, I'm talking inability to win a solitary game, even when you have a 4-1 lead after 2. I don't think anyone ever 'chokes' by not winning a national title.

Either that or I don't speak Shakespeare.

DeltaOne81

Trotsky

DeltaOne81
Okay, but what if its repeatedly? Year after year getting upset or unable to win. Eventually, you're choking right? Would it be better if we called it Harvarding?

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

37 years and counting.

I'm not talking national titles, I'm talking inability to win a solitary game, even when you have a 4-1 lead after 2. I don't think anyone ever 'chokes' by not winning a national title.

Well, are we defining choking as any instance of not playing to one's potential, or does it have to specifically be caused by fear, nervousness, etc? To me, choking includes those causes. In that case, since I don't think a team up by 3 with 20 minutes to go is really shaking in their skates, I'd say that blowing that lead is more laziness than choking.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

I don't speak Shakespeare.

Sigh.

Trotsky

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

I don't speak Shakespeare.

Sigh.

Well, he probably don't speak Bible neither.

Trotsky

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

I don't speak Shakespeare.

Sigh.

Jerk

Well, I still say that if ND had lost to UAH, for god's sake they were the last team in the CHA, then ND choked. Unless, of course they had gone to a certain restaurant in the NC first.

ugarte
And how often were we the best team over that span? Once, maybe? I'll call the loss to UNH in 2003 a choke if you'd like. We only choked the first period but that was enough. (That said, that Minnesota team was pretty impressive in the finals and I don't think we were actually the best team in the country.)

Shame on you. Don't you know the official party line on that game? Here:

It wasn't a high stick. We were robbed of that goal. That bad call sucked out all of our momentum and allowed UNH to take over the game until we nearly tied it up at the end.

Choke? No. We was robbed.

ftyuv

DeltaOne81

Trotsky

DeltaOne81
Okay, but what if its repeatedly? Year after year getting upset or unable to win. Eventually, you're choking right? Would it be better if we called it Harvarding?

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

37 years and counting.

I'm not talking national titles, I'm talking inability to win a solitary game, even when you have a 4-1 lead after 2. I don't think anyone ever 'chokes' by not winning a national title.

Well, are we defining choking as any instance of not playing to one's potential, or does it have to specifically be caused by fear, nervousness, etc? To me, choking includes those causes. In that case, since I don't think a team up by 3 with 20 minutes to go is really shaking in their skates, I'd say that blowing that lead is more laziness than choking.

Now if that's not choking my sign makes no sense anymore.

And I thought Noah really seemed to enjoy it during pregame warm ups.

ftyuv

DeltaOne81

Trotsky

DeltaOne81
Okay, but what if its repeatedly? Year after year getting upset or unable to win. Eventually, you're choking right? Would it be better if we called it Harvarding?

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

37 years and counting.

I'm not talking national titles, I'm talking inability to win a solitary game, even when you have a 4-1 lead after 2. I don't think anyone ever 'chokes' by not winning a national title.

Well, are we defining choking as any instance of not playing to one's potential, or does it have to specifically be caused by fear, nervousness, etc? To me, choking includes those causes. In that case, since I don't think a team up by 3 with 20 minutes to go is really shaking in their skates, I'd say that blowing that lead is more laziness than choking.

I strongly disagree. When you're up by 3 with 20 to go, the table has been set, the candles have been lit, the fatted calf is cooling on the platter, and the appetizer has been served. But instead of enjoying a sumptuos repast, you choke on your foie gras, and never get to enjoy what should have been a fabulous evening.

Case in point: Yes, Minnesota is good, but Air Force looked scared to me. They definitely tightened up in the third period and became much more tentative; Minnesota pounced on them like a good team should. Yes, I said it: Air Force choked against Minnesota.

Choke doesn't have to do with rankings or upsets - it's not being able to achieve what is laid out before you for the taking.

ftyuv
Well, are we defining choking as any instance of not playing to one's potential, or does it have to specifically be caused by fear, nervousness, etc? To me, choking includes those causes. In that case, since I don't think a team up by 3 with 20 minutes to go is really shaking in their skates, I'd say that blowing that lead is more laziness than choking.

So, the Yankees, 2004 edition (up by three games and some runs, then losing the series), were lazy, not chokers? I beg to differ.

Fear, nervousness, etc. may be present in instances of choking, but it's only because of the Big Game factor, a necessity in my definition of choking. Season-end tournament games are Big Games. Rivalry games are Big Games. Random game against a weak, out-of-conference team that Team loses may be terrible, horrible, no good, etc., but isn't choking.

DeltaOne81
Okay, but what if its repeatedly? Year after year getting upset or unable to win. Eventually, you're choking right? Would it be better if we called it Harvarding?

Well, IIRC correctly not one of those losses was against a lower-ranked team. You could call the Maine game a choke or you could give them props for building a big lead against a better / higher seeded team , but at least 4 losses as a #4 seed can't be called chokes.

JohnnieAg'99

DeltaOne81
Okay, but what if its repeatedly? Year after year getting upset or unable to win. Eventually, you're choking right? Would it be better if we called it Harvarding?

Well, IIRC correctly not one of those losses was against a lower-ranked team. You could call the Maine game a choke or you could give them props for building a big lead against a better / higher seeded team , but at least 4 losses as a #4 seed can't be called chokes.

You mean they can't be correctly called chokes.

As for me, I will be happy in my ignorance to incorrectly label Harvard's one and done performances....CHOKES!!

Liz '05

ftyuv
Well, are we defining choking as any instance of not playing to one's potential, or does it have to specifically be caused by fear, nervousness, etc? To me, choking includes those causes. In that case, since I don't think a team up by 3 with 20 minutes to go is really shaking in their skates, I'd say that blowing that lead is more laziness than choking.

So, the Yankees, 2004 edition (up by three games and some runs, then losing the series), were lazy, not chokers? I beg to differ.

As do I. The Yankees merely suck.

JohnnieAg'99

DeltaOne81
Okay, but what if its repeatedly? Year after year getting upset or unable to win. Eventually, you're choking right? Would it be better if we called it Harvarding?

Well, IIRC correctly not one of those losses was against a lower-ranked team. You could call the Maine game a choke or you could give them props for building a big lead against a better / higher seeded team , but at least 4 losses as a #4 seed can't be called chokes.

Well, first, not true, one game Harvard was ranked higher.

Second, even if you are only have 30% odds in each game, the odds of losing all 5 is still less than 17% (.7 ^ 5).

In fact, that's remarkably close to the actual numbers. Using KRACH odds, Harvard's chance of losing all 5 NCAA games this decade was 13.4%. For comparison, that's *less* than HC's odds to beat Minn last year. A bunch of reasonable events happening each and every time gets to be pretty slim odds reasonable quickly.

Choking is, quite simply, 'overcoming non-trivial odds to perform poorly'. So Clarkson, despite the rankings, no, wasn't really a choke (although losing *their* last 5 as well is getting there). Harvard though... 13% is bad enough for me.

Robb
I strongly disagree. When you're up by 3 with 20 to go, the table has been set, the candles have been lit, the fatted calf is cooling on the platter, and the appetizer has been served. But instead of enjoying a sumptuos repast, you choke on your foie gras, and never get to enjoy what should have been a fabulous evening.

In this situation, we should thank god that Heimlich is a Cornellian.

Harvard though... 13% is bad enough for me.

Doesn't that come out to a 4.0 there?